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Accelerando
04-06-2009, 07:18 PM
It was nice knowing ya. Enjoy your trip to the Lordsmarch Bank.
:D

*edit* Mods was it really necessary to
1. Change the title of my post?
2. Move this to the combat forum?

You have made a controversial change, and yes perhaps my title was a bit inflammatory, but better to get it all out in the open in the beginning rather than letting the wounds fester. Have fun cleaning up the 200+ additional threads that will be started in General.

Torosar
04-06-2009, 07:23 PM
Being reduced to 0 constitution will no longer kill players or monsters. They will be stunned for a short period of time and then behave as if they had been reduced to 0 in any other ability score. (Automatic criticals, etc.) This change applies to all ability scores - for example, Shadows will no longer kill you if your strength is reduced to 0, though you will continue to spawn a shadow if you die while under the effects of their touch.


Wow!

GoldyGopher
04-06-2009, 07:24 PM
Okay.... Not bad...

valorik
04-06-2009, 07:24 PM
ouch

Andrewii
04-06-2009, 07:25 PM
later

artvan_delet
04-06-2009, 07:26 PM
There's gonna be fallout from this. People paid a lot of plat/items for their w/p. I have a w/p rapier, but I'll roll with the flow.
Can't be cloudkill...cloudstunning?

Stamp3de
04-06-2009, 07:27 PM
D8

incontinetia
04-06-2009, 07:27 PM
Sounds interesting.
I wonder if this means the normal damage from your wop will kill the enemy in its stunned state?
It will be fun to see how this changes things.

Mike_Fun_Spot
04-06-2009, 07:29 PM
Oh happy day (oh happy day)
Oh happy day (oh happy day)
When Jesus washed (when Jesus washed)
When Jesus washed (when Jesus washed)
Jesus washed (when Jesus washed)
Washed my sins away (oh happy day)
Oh happy day (oh happy day)

Lets see how good u really are! and thnx for all the loot i got for trading the ones i got, i knew the day would come when easy button was over! Crappy players cancel your subs now!

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 07:29 PM
woot been looking foward to this

Bashear
04-06-2009, 07:30 PM
Auto-crits + continued stun = death

Might take a few more swings, but good as dead. Perhaps burst of punct is now the weapon of choice? :cool:

...v...
04-06-2009, 07:33 PM
It was nice knowing ya. Enjoy your trip to the Lordsmarch Bank.
:D


Why does that bring joy to you? You like sitting there hacking at things for hours? Or the problem is you didnt have a WoP?

totmacher
04-06-2009, 07:33 PM
w/p rapier is the new toxic assets

Nevthial
04-06-2009, 07:34 PM
yeah w/ auto-crits it may have slowed things down a bit, but that's all looks like. ( Except for those that rely on CON dmg solely) WOP in one hand Vorpal in the other vs. creatures hit by it. WOP in one hand and (insert high dmg wpn) in the other for those not affected. Meh, nothing to bother me I guess.

Accelerando
04-06-2009, 07:35 PM
Why does that bring joy to you? You like sitting there hacking at things for hours? Or the problem is you didnt have a WoP?

Trust me bro I have my share.

incontinetia
04-06-2009, 07:35 PM
Auto-crits + continued stun = death

Might take a few more swings, but good as dead. Perhaps burst of punct is now the weapon of choice? :cool:

Thats what i was thinking. I guess will hurt dex bases most.

deathtouch
04-06-2009, 07:35 PM
woot been looking foward to this


Aww your gimped barbarian might kill something now.

Turial
04-06-2009, 07:36 PM
I think we all knew it was going to come some day.

Not saying its the best solution...but it is one way to deal with it. Now to fix normal damage.

Gunga
04-06-2009, 07:39 PM
Cache is just happy because he thinks his little rogue has a chance to get on the boards now.

Drider
04-06-2009, 07:40 PM
Cache is just happy because he thinks his little rogue has a chance to get on the boards now.


Aww the fact that you think those boards actually mean something after all this time is sad Gunga. :(

Mike_Fun_Spot
04-06-2009, 07:42 PM
Ding Dong! The WOP is dead. Which old WOP? The Wicked WOP!
Ding Dong! The Wicked WOP is dead.

Thank you once again to the people who sold tho sold to me to have them :) lol

Gunga
04-06-2009, 07:42 PM
Aww the fact that you think those boards actually mean something after all this time is sad Gunga. :(

You're right man. They mean nothing.

That 12/4 Cleric/Fighter of yours is doin all the work even though he only has 4 kills.

Lol.

Gratch
04-06-2009, 07:42 PM
That note is followed with:


Red named bosses can now be affected by up to 10 points of ability damage in each ability score, this cannot drop them below 1 in an ability score.

and


Ability damage now regenerates at a rate of 1 point of each ability score per minute.

Though I didn't see anything about monster HP's in Mod 7 & 8 being reduced across the board. The frost giants hp in Mod 8 are recaukulus.

Accelerando
04-06-2009, 07:42 PM
Aww the fact that you think those boards actually mean something after all this time is sad Gunga. :(

He's just mad because of Storm Cleave.

Gunga
04-06-2009, 07:43 PM
He's just mad because of Storm Cleave.

You're just happy because of STK.

Drider
04-06-2009, 07:46 PM
You're right man. They mean nothing.

That 12/4 Cleric/Fighter of yours is doin all the work even though he only has 4 kills.

Lol.


Sure I have to take down their hps for you to run over and get that last swing in. :p

And wow.. you? you of all people busting on peoples builds? That's just classic.

Molotov
04-06-2009, 07:50 PM
i don't think this seems to bad, and bursting of puncturing might be the way to go now, who knows...

Gunga
04-06-2009, 07:50 PM
Sure I have to take down their hps for you to run over and get that last swing in. :p

And wow.. you? you of all people busting on peoples builds? That's just classic.

Been a long time, Dreck.

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 07:50 PM
And cloudkill is the new firewall!

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 07:53 PM
ding dong the witch is dead

sirgog
04-06-2009, 07:53 PM
w/p rapier is the new toxic assets

LOL

I still think they'll be very good - kinda like Weakening of Enfeebling are now.
The days of 10m PP WoP rapiers are over - but the days of 1-2m PP WoP rapiers are now upon us.

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 07:55 PM
LOL

I still think they'll be very good - kinda like Weakening of Enfeebling are now.
The days of 10m PP WoP rapiers are over - but the days of 1-2m PP WoP rapiers are now upon us.

1-2 million gold maybe.

Accelerando
04-06-2009, 07:55 PM
And cloudkill is the new firewall!

um hmm.

CK+AF FTW

respeccing NOW

Gum
04-06-2009, 07:57 PM
It was nice knowing ya. Enjoy your trip to the Lordsmarch Bank.
:D

/Celebrates!

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 08:00 PM
LOL

I still think they'll be very good - kinda like Weakening of Enfeebling are now.
The days of 10m PP WoP rapiers are over - but the days of 1-2m PP WoP rapiers are now upon us.
Yeah, what it means is that a weakening kukri of enfeebling is sorta kinda almost as 00ber as a wounding rapier of puncturing (not quite, since reducing STR does not reduce hit points), which is good.

But from a realism standpoint, if any stat is reduced to zero, the target should die.

Retsam
04-06-2009, 08:00 PM
did you all msis this little gem too?

The Transmuting weapon enchantment is now: "This weapon transmutes into a form that is able to bypass any material based Damage Reduction. (Adamantine, Alchemical Silver, Byeshk, Cold Iron, or Mithril)"

it doesnt bypass good/evil/chaotic/law anymore.. or slash/pierce/bludgeon

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 08:03 PM
nope saw that too

doesnt hurt mineral 2's that much since they're holy/pure good; unless you plan on using an axe as a lich beater, just have to craft triple holy instead

will suck for epic dr or for the new character that is still working on getting good gear, a +5 transmuter wont take him that far now

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 08:04 PM
did you all msis this little gem too?

The Transmuting weapon enchantment is now: "This weapon transmutes into a form that is able to bypass any material based Damage Reduction. (Adamantine, Alchemical Silver, Byeshk, Cold Iron, or Mithril)"

it doesnt bypass good/evil/chaotic/law anymore.. or slash/pierce/bludgeon
Nope, didn't miss it. What does it have to do with wounding of puncturing? I wonder if that will put an end to my transmuting pick doing slash damage to clay golems?

Osharan_Tregarth
04-06-2009, 08:04 PM
LOL

I still think they'll be very good - kinda like Weakening of Enfeebling are now.
The days of 10m PP WoP rapiers are over - but the days of 1-2m PP WoP rapiers are now upon us.


Actually, I think weakening of enfeebling will be better.

Still get the auto crits when they get down to 0, AND they'll do less damage to people in the process.

Gunga
04-06-2009, 08:05 PM
Born on a mountain top in Tennessee
The greenest state in the land of the free
Raised in the woods so's he knew ev'ry tree
Kilt him a b'ar when he was only three
Davy, Davy Crockett, king of the wild frontier

Fought single-handed through many a war
Till the enemy was whipped and peace was in store
And while he was handlin' this risky chore
He made himself a legend forever more
Davy, Davy Crockett, the man who knew no fear

He went off to Congress and served a spell
Fixin' up the Government and the laws as well
Took over Washington, so I heard tell
And he patched up the crack in the Liberty Bell
Davy, Davy Crockett, seeing his duty clear

When he came home his politic'ing was done
And the western march had just begun
So he packed his gear and his trusty gun
And lit out a-grinnin' to follow the sun
Davy, Davy Crockett, leading the pioneer

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 08:07 PM
Actually, I think weakening of enfeebling will be better.

Still get the auto crits when they get down to 0, AND they'll do less damage to people in the process.
Is this the beginning of 4 mil platinum weakening of enfeebling kukris?

Thame
04-06-2009, 08:08 PM
Auto-crits + continued stun = death

Might take a few more swings, but good as dead. Perhaps burst of punct is now the weapon of choice? :cool:

ROFL I posted a thread a few months back about the very topic of going burst of puncturing and that I could do damage while reducing con at same time to be just as effective as WOP. OMG the slams I got the 'YOUR WRONG' YOU SUK' even the private messages saying im a dumbass etc. LMAO. I will say it just because to those that made those nice remarks to me in that post.......TOLD YA SO!!!:D

Korvek
04-06-2009, 08:10 PM
snip

That's just cruel.

InfidelofHaLL
04-06-2009, 08:11 PM
Auto-crits + continued stun = death

Might take a few more swings, but good as dead. Perhaps burst of punct is now the weapon of choice? :cool:

mmm nice, i was using those before punct became the need be end all of stuff and i quit using them


Why does that bring joy to you? You like sitting there hacking at things for hours? Or the problem is you didnt have a WoP?

it brings joy because ppl became sheep thinking the only way to kill things was wop

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 08:13 PM
ROFL I posted a thread a few months back about the very topic of going burst of puncturing and that I could do damage while reducing con at same time to be just as effective as WOP. OMG the slams I got the 'YOUR WRONG' YOU SUK' even the private messages saying im a dumbass etc. LMAO. I will say it just because to those that made those nice remarks to me in that post.......TOLD YA SO!!!:D

I didnt see your previous post. But at the time of writing it you were wrong.

It is like saying a Blue wall is red. When it gets repainted red you can't say i told you so.

Knob Jockey

Shaamis
04-06-2009, 08:14 PM
Auto-crits + continued stun = death

Might take a few more swings, but good as dead. Perhaps burst of punct is now the weapon of choice? :cool:

<pets his maldroit of stunning5% handwraps>

Looks like these puppies just got an upgrade, seeing as how they might out-perform WoPs now......

starting bid is 10 mil plat!

<eeeeeeeeeevil laugh>

:D;):p

Angelus_dead
04-06-2009, 08:16 PM
Actually, I think weakening of enfeebling will be better.
Still get the auto crits when they get down to 0, AND they'll do less damage to people in the process.
More importantly, Weakening will stack with the strength damage rogues inflict naturally.

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 08:21 PM
More importantly, Weakening will stack with the strength damage rogues inflict naturally.
What about Slicing Blow (or whatever it's called) now adding 1 point CON damage, or is that too piddly even if it stacks with Wounding?

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 08:22 PM
More importantly, Weakening will stack with the strength damage rogues inflict naturally.

Yep, Rogues are the premier killers.....

Radiance + WE + Crippling Strike + AssassinIII..... Win.

Retsam
04-06-2009, 08:23 PM
More importantly, Weakening will stack with the strength damage rogues inflict naturally.


it does :)

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 08:23 PM
What about Slicing Blow (or whatever it's called) now adding 1 point CON damage, or is that too piddly even if it stacks with Wounding?

15 second cool down.

So if you get more than one off on a mob then the fight took too long.

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 08:24 PM
What about Slicing Blow (or whatever it's called) now adding 1 point CON damage, or is that too piddly even if it stacks with Wounding?

i thought that was a neat addition

a twf could use it and get a guaranteed 2 additional con damage



still not worth the feat, but neat

Slink
04-06-2009, 08:25 PM
Why do people not read?

I'll buy all you wop if you think theyre worthless. Read the release note again and tell me what you arent seeing by this change?

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 08:29 PM
I'm not at all concerned about this. But tell me oh wise one, what are we not seeing?

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 08:29 PM
Why do people not read?

I'll buy all you wop if you think theyre worthless. Read the release note again and tell me what you arent seeing by this change?
I imagine the people who wrote they are now worthless were joking, unless they are also saying that weakening of enfeebling (as the game is right now) is worthless.

Slink
04-06-2009, 08:34 PM
The only change this has made is that reducing con to 0 does not result in death. So, exactly how many hitpoints will a particular critter have with a con of 0?

All it did was hand the kill to the next melee to attack. So, unless you are concerned about kill counts, I dont see much of a change.

BTW, might want to check the AH tonight :D

deathtouch
04-06-2009, 08:36 PM
mmm nice, i was using those before punct became the need be end all of stuff and i quit using them



it brings joy because ppl became sheep thinking the only way to kill things was wop

Well lets see trash mobs with 10,000+hit points... it become inefficent to dps them. I can not see the hatred, I have both DPS and WOP builds and after all the game is about working together to kill things and win.

Thame
04-06-2009, 08:37 PM
I didnt see your previous post. But at the time of writing it you were wrong.

It is like saying a Blue wall is red. When it gets repainted red you can't say i told you so.

Knob Jockey

But who is the one doing the rerolls now? lol
Knob Jockey? you cant be more origional eh? LOL

Stamp3de
04-06-2009, 08:38 PM
The only change this has made is that reducing con to 0 does not result in death. So, exactly how many hitpoints will a particular critter have with a con of 0?

All it did was hand the kill to the next melee to attack. So, unless you are concerned about kill counts, I dont see much of a change.

BTW, might want to check the AH tonight :D

Not true necessarily, mobs hit points are based off of HD. Con scores have little impact on the hps of end game mobs.
An end game mob with 0 con will still have greater than 1000hps.

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 08:38 PM
The only change this has made is that reducing con to 0 does not result in death. So, exactly how many hitpoints will a particular critter have with a con of 0?

All it did was hand the kill to the next melee to attack. So, unless you are concerned about kill counts, I dont see much of a change.

BTW, might want to check the AH tonight :D

well, assuming that they get 100 hp per 2 con.. and a frost giant has 20 con and 5000 hp... then they have 4000 hp left.

Aspenor
04-06-2009, 08:41 PM
This change is ****ing ridiculous, pointless, and stupid.

Way to go all you crybabies.

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 08:42 PM
The only change this has made is that reducing con to 0 does not result in death. So, exactly how many hitpoints will a particular critter have with a con of 0?

All it did was hand the kill to the next melee to attack. So, unless you are concerned about kill counts, I dont see much of a change.

BTW, might want to check the AH tonight :D

Constitution isn't the only asset that lends hit points. The inflated hp mobs may have a buffer of +50-400 hps left after reduced to 0 con (of course they're being auto-critted at this point, so it should only take 1-5 swings on a heavy hitter to finish them off.

It hardly changes the overall game of constitution draining in the long run unless they removed the effect where the monster loses the bonus hps offered by the con bonuses. If said monster were to retain total hps and wop fighter were not a hard-hitter, they might immobolize the ceature at 40-80% health.

It'll be interesting to see in combat.

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 08:42 PM
This change is ****ing ridiculous, pointless, and stupid.

Way to go all you crybabies.
Are you kidding? It rocks! Woo hoo!

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 08:43 PM
This change is ****ing ridiculous, pointless, and stupid.

Way to go all you crybabies.

I agree the change is pretty... ineffective? Unless they changed constitution bonus hp removal to stay until sapped by actual damage.

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 08:44 PM
Are you kidding? It rocks! Woo hoo!

You rock bran. You rock like you know what's cook'n.

Aspenor
04-06-2009, 08:44 PM
Are you kidding? It rocks! Woo hoo!

How would you know? You never make it past level 10, where you can actually use these weapons.

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 08:44 PM
Constitution isn't the only asset that lends hit points. The inflated hp mobs may have a buffer of +50-400 hps left after reduced to 0 con (of course they're being auto-critted at this point, so it should only take 1-5 swings on a heavy hitter to finish them off.

It hardly changes the overall game of constitution draining in the long run unless they removed the effect where the monster loses the bonus hps offered by the con bonuses. If said monster were to retain total hps and wop fighter were not a hard-hitter, they might immobolize the ceature at 40-80% health.

It'll be interesting to see in combat.

50-400 hp?

That's a little on the insanely low side. Those giants will have thousands of hp left. there's a reason stunning blow isn't even worth it... you can't kill him in the time it takes for him to unstunning blow.

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 08:45 PM
Not true necessarily, mobs hit points are based off of HD. Con scores have little impact on the hps of end game mobs.
An end game mob with 0 con will still have greater than 1000hps.

You beat me to it. Yeah what he said. (Although I was guessing 500 remaining after 0 con wittled providing they have any attack ability other than 1-5 pts with wop attacks)

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 08:45 PM
How would you know? You never make it past level 10, where you can actually use these weapons.
Watch me not care!

MondoGrunday
04-06-2009, 08:45 PM
this thread oozes of longterm pent up wop envy. its not going to change things all that much for the worse. they went from being ultra uber items to super uber items.
i'll be keeping and using mine :D

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 08:46 PM
But who is the one doing the rerolls now? lol
Knob Jockey? you cant be more origional eh? LOL

No rerolls going on here.

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 08:47 PM
How would you know? You never make it past level 10, where you can actually use these weapons.

He's a dreamer. He is visualizing how it rocks. And in Bran's vision of the future, this definitely rocks.

He doesn't have to be there to know it rocks. Just like you don't have to ever have been in Lindsay Lohan's dressing room to know it rocks. ;)

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 08:49 PM
He's a dreamer. He is visualizing how it rocks. And in Bran's vision of the future, this definitely rocks.

He doesn't have to be there to know it rocks. Just like you don't have to ever have been in Lindsay Lohan's dressing room to know it rocks. ;)
I can verify that.

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 08:49 PM
The only change this has made is that reducing con to 0 does not result in death. So, exactly how many hitpoints will a particular critter have with a con of 0?

All it did was hand the kill to the next melee to attack. So, unless you are concerned about kill counts, I dont see much of a change.

BTW, might want to check the AH tonight :D

Nope, pretty sure we all read and comprehended the release notes then.

Keep in mind a mob that has 40 con and 20 HD is only loosing 300hp..... that isnt a whole heap for them to lose......

DPSed a frost giant lately? A Devil?

Slink
04-06-2009, 08:49 PM
50-400 hp?

That's a little on the insanely low side. Those giants will have thousands of hp left. there's a reason stunning blow isn't even worth it... you can't kill him in the time it takes for him to unstunning blow.

Ok, how many hp would "Mr. Giant" have without stat damage?

AussieEngineer
04-06-2009, 08:50 PM
I am kind of a little miffed about this one, purely because they are deviating so far from the core rules underlying D&D..

Zero Con is mean to kill you. Full stop.

In implementing this 'solution' they have totally nerfed the cloudkill spell (as pointed out briefly above) as one example.

I on occasion solo stuff on my wizzy when working on favour, etc. So I think its a little f*cked up that what was once a useful and dangerous spell (as it should be) now basically doesn't do anything for you.

Basically, you aren't going to kill anything with Con damage outright, so DPS becomes important once more... but they still have massively inflated Hit Points on creatures to the point of ridiculousness.

Meh.. i'll see how it plays out, and be prepared to learn from the opinions of others here.
I tend to see it as a negative, but we'll see..

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 08:50 PM
Ok, how many hp would "Mr. Giant" have without stat damage?

a lot

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 08:51 PM
I am kind of a little miffed about this one, purely because they are deviating so far from the core rules underlying D&D..

Zero Con is mean to kill you. Full stop.

In implementing this 'solution' they have totally nerfed the cloudkill spell (as pointed out briefly above) as one example.

I on occasion solo stuff on my wizzy when working on favour, etc. So I think its a little f*cked up that what was once a useful and dangerous spell (as it should be) now basically doesn't do anything for you.

Basically, you aren't going to kill anything with Con damage outright, so DPS becomes important once more... but they still have massively inflated Hit Points on creatures to the point of ridiculousness.

Meh.. i'll see how it plays out, and be prepared to learn from the opinions of others here.
I tend to see it as a negative, but we'll see..


actually, cloudkill is now pretty kickass. I wouldn't call it a nerf.. I can't remember the last time I just waited for things to cook in a cloudkill.

Slink
04-06-2009, 08:52 PM
Nope, pretty sure we all read and comprehended the release notes then.

Keep in mind a mob that has 40 con and 20 HD is only loosing 300hp..... that isnt a whole heap for them to lose......

DPSed a frost giant lately? A Devil?

Actually, yes.

I have found it amusing that most people brag about all the weapons they have crafted that are so uber, yet they never use them.

Slink
04-06-2009, 08:53 PM
a lot

give me a number. before and after

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 08:53 PM
I am kind of a little miffed about this one, purely because they are deviating so far from the core rules underlying D&D..

Zero Con is mean to kill you. Full stop.
Zero anything should mean death. Full stop. But at least they've evened the playing field sorta kinda.


Actually, yes.

I have found it amusing that most people brag about all the weapons they have crafted that are so uber, yet they never use them.
If they used them, they might take red damage.

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 08:55 PM
Nope, pretty sure we all read and comprehended the release notes then.

Keep in mind a mob that has 40 con and 20 HD is only loosing 300hp..... that isnt a whole heap for them to lose......

DPSed a frost giant lately? A Devil?

Yes. About 25-35 successful hits from a dwarven thrower with a equilibrium dex/str (28) slash crit character. Wasn't fun but I can imagine group beat-downs being very successful again if all had dps para weaps.

Mhykke
04-06-2009, 08:57 PM
Yes. About 25-35 successful hits from a dwarven thrower and it was almost down a quarter with a equilibrium dex/str (28) slash crit character. Wasn't fun but I can imagine group beat-downs being very successful again if all had dps para weaps.

Fixed that for ya.

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 08:57 PM
Zero anything should mean death. Full stop. But at least they've evened the playing field sorta kinda.

I don't even mind this change, but Jesus, Bran... at least get your facts right.

0 anything doesn't mean death, 0 con does.

jmonty
04-06-2009, 08:58 PM
Auto-crits + continued stun = death

Might take a few more swings, but good as dead. Perhaps burst of punct is now the weapon of choice? :cool:

sweet, i just pulled a +5 icy burst of puncturing tonight. :D will entertain outrageous offers via pm. but first, bring me the head of a pig, and a goblet of something refreshing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9em-ZCddWk

Mockduck
04-06-2009, 08:59 PM
Zero anything should mean death. Full stop. But at least they've evened the playing field sorta kinda.


If they used them, they might take red damage.

I agree!!! People who run out of plat should instantly die...

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 08:59 PM
Fixed that for ya.

*_* Sure.

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 09:00 PM
Ok, how many hp would "Mr. Giant" have without stat damage?
Actually, yes.

I have found it amusing that most people brag about all the weapons they have crafted that are so uber, yet they never use them.

give me a number. before and after



So you know or you don't?

I would say a frost giant from the snow valley in the refuge has upwards of 5000hp

Bearded devil, just from running to vod the other day, stunning one, and trying to dps it.... 3k?

Anyone else got some hard numbers?

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 09:00 PM
I don't even mind this change, but Jesus, Bran... at least get your facts right.

0 anything doesn't mean death, 0 con does.
Dude, read what I wrote. I wrote zero anything should mean death.


I agree!!! People who run out of plat should instantly die...
We need account draining weapons of auction house addiction.

Mhykke
04-06-2009, 09:00 PM
*_* Sure.

Smart not to argue.

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 09:02 PM
Dude, read what I wrote. I wrote zero anything should mean death.

And by should... you just mean the way you wish the game worked (DDO and PnP combined)?

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 09:02 PM
Smart not to argue.

I know what I did. Troll on.

Uska
04-06-2009, 09:03 PM
meh I was hoping to loot a wop so I could sell it for some cash but now it wont matter watch me loot a pair now

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 09:06 PM
And by should... you just mean the way you wish the game worked (DDO and PnP combined)?
Exactly. I need to be the Highly Exalted Grand Poobah of DDO so I can implement all necessary changes.

Ranmaru2
04-06-2009, 09:09 PM
Once again the dev team proves they have no understanding of logic. This change is down right stupid. They'd better take away blanket immunities to allow FoD, PK, Wail, Destruction, Slay Living, and Implosion to work. What the hell were they thinking?

QuantumFX
04-06-2009, 09:09 PM
I really wouldn't have a problem with this if stat damage of any type would just make the mobs/PC's fall on the ground helpless as well as autocrit. Nothing is more annoying than draining something of all it's STR and then getting smacked for 40 points of damage.

smatt
04-06-2009, 09:10 PM
Hmm, no big deal..... It's fixing what was more or less broken about WoP's.... It brings them back down a bit, that's all.... A few hit's to a 0 con, motionless mob is still a dead mob. Now the WoP builds will be only be over-powered as oppossed to God-like over-powered..... Seems like a reasonable change to me.

Now I shall move on and leave the troll-tet's and friends to their thread.

Deriaz
04-06-2009, 09:13 PM
I like this change. The weapons are still useful, and it kind of makes other weapons more useful; when one person has two Wounding of Puncturing weapons, it means others can bust out their best weapons. When the enemy is stunned, the hurt becomes greater.

Never had a Wounding of Puncturing anything, but I wouldn't mind this change. Then again, I like my Strength draining Bastard Sword, even if it only does one point every hit (or was it crit? I forget the special name for that one.).

-D

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 09:14 PM
Yes. About 25-35 successful hits from a dwarven thrower with a equilibrium dex/str (28) slash crit character. Wasn't fun but I can imagine group beat-downs being very successful again if all had dps para weaps.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Weapons/DwarvenThrower.jpg

So with this weapon, which doesnt beat the DR, doing 1d6 +1d8 +7str +2 dwarf +3 wpn damage you killed a bearded devil in 25-35 hits.

Lets give you a few advantages, lets assume 35 hits and max damage dice.

1d6 +1d8 +7str +3 +2 Dwarf weapon = max 26 damage

DR = 10

26-10=16 + crits = 21.2 damage per hit including crits (crits averaged out)

soooo devils have 742 hp.

Maybe they are close to that in the vale. But that is about it, shroud, subterranean, vod. Different story.

The example lacks credibility.

Turial
04-06-2009, 09:17 PM
I agree!!! People who run out of plat should instantly die...

All those poor clerics.

Aspenor
04-06-2009, 09:22 PM
Hmm, no big deal..... It's fixing what was more or less broken about WoP's.... It brings them back down a bit, that's all.... A few hit's to a 0 con, motionless mob is still a dead mob. Now the WoP builds will be only be over-powered as oppossed to God-like over-powered..... Seems like a reasonable change to me.

Now I shall move on and leave the troll-tet's and friends to their thread.

Wrong. They weren't even god-like overpowered in the first place, they just are what they are.

This change is completely idiotic.

Deathe
04-06-2009, 09:22 PM
Just needed to post that with the stated changes to w/p there is a good chance that I will be canceling my subscription post Mod 9. If memory serves correctly I’ve been playing since the first day of release and can’t tell you how frustrated I am at the prospect of leaving the game. This isn’t a rant or an idol threat though inevitably people will flame on the subject, I only want to voice my strong disagreement with the decision on Turbines part to change fundamentals of the game that have been in place since launch.

To say that W/P is overpowered is just a petty argument. If kill count is the only concern I’ve seen many well spec’d Sorc’s beat me time after time. And there is, believe it or not, a few dps tanks that have bested me on a regular basis. The bottom line is that this was always meant to be a game based around grouping. I honestly don’t care about kill counts anymore, as long as the bad guys are dying and I’m not it means little to me who got the killing blow. Besides the bulk of kill counts in just about any quest is usually from trash mobs. To place much value on who killed more of what anyone could kill is silly at best.

As often has been the case, Turbines desire to fix things that aren’t broke and implement harebrained changes instead of focusing on new creating new content or God forbid fixing the incessant lag issues that have plagued us for years will ultimately cost them in the long run. I’ve often shaken my head at various modifications that have been made to the game but this, sadly, may be the final straw.

I will reserve final judgment but remain skeptical. I won’t be following up on this thread as I have no desire to argue or debate, only to state my vehement displeasure. That said feel free to throw all the boo-hoo-hoo’s you want, much as the many complaints to Turbine they shall fall on deaf ears.

- Dethe

Gum
04-06-2009, 09:23 PM
W/P, while fun to play with, has always seemed like an easy button to me. There is still trip, stunning blow, and other ways to use tactics to our advantage. This is better for the game imo.

Aspenor
04-06-2009, 09:26 PM
I'm seriously considering doing the same. The direction this game is going is apparently south.

Accelerando
04-06-2009, 09:28 PM
Wrong. They weren't even god-like overpowered in the first place, they just are what they are.

This change is completely idiotic.

Reroll.

Can't wait to see everyone busting out the woo woo sticks in mod 9.

Aspenor
04-06-2009, 09:29 PM
Reroll.

Can't wait to see everyone busting out the woo woo sticks in mod 9.

This has nothing to do with my characters. It's about design and poor decision making. Con 0 = DEATH. That's the rule, that's how it should be.

stockwizard5
04-06-2009, 09:30 PM
Look - we knew this was going to happen when the Test Players went on the fire sale starting back in January. Its horrible that working hard is now second to "insider" information but thats the way of the world when the learned community is not involved in a classic franchise like DnD.

Hendrik
04-06-2009, 09:30 PM
Reroll.

Can't wait to see everyone busting out the woo woo sticks in mod 9.


Hehe

KiwiJoe
04-06-2009, 09:31 PM
Come on. If there was ever an overpowered item in a game this was it.

A level 10 weapon, that's been in the game since day1, that can best everything else in most quests and makes dps'ing near pointless. (SOS)

I have several wops and I'm happy with the change. It's been a long time coming.

Mike_Fun_Spot
04-06-2009, 09:31 PM
Dont think kill count was reason. These weapons allowed even subpar players to completely destroy any quest out there (as far as non red names go). Now some people will always be able to defeat the devs quest, mobs, whatever they throw out at some point, but without this weapon the people who thought they were good find out they are not will leave, the people who are good will go on to do the same domination just will have to work a little harder at it.

Aspenor
04-06-2009, 09:31 PM
Look - we knew this was going to happen when the Test Players went on the fire sale starting back in January. Its horrible that working hard is now second to "insider" information but thats the way of the world when the learned community is not involved in a classic franchise like DnD.

Agreed. Trash the test server, or ban the players there from the live servers.

Galacticus
04-06-2009, 09:31 PM
I'm very disappointed at the W/P nerf but I cancelled my accounts already not for that reason only, because all Turbine knows how do is to nerf.

I love this game not for the content but for the players. I roll with the best bunch of misfits on Argo. It will be painful to walk away but I just can't take this **** anymore.

Andrewii
04-06-2009, 09:32 PM
wop nerfed yes

Theboz
04-06-2009, 09:32 PM
W/P, while fun to play with, has always seemed like an easy button to me. There is still trip, stunning blow, and other ways to use tactics to our advantage. This is better for the game imo.



So, lol, why trip something when you can use W/p without any save

Why use stunning blow when you can W/p without any save?

W/p weapons will be just like Para weapon, except they will have no Saves

Thame
04-06-2009, 09:33 PM
This supposed WOP nerf should actually be called balance of the game. I think its about time actually. Now DPS matters again. I have WOP weapons but feel these are overrated anyway, now you can make a power dps build and it will be accpeted just as much as a WOP user was before this balance. Admit ti. If you have a choice of doing say Devils on elite with a DPS barb or WOP user wwhich would you have chosed. The WOP obviously, even I would have, now they will be equally accepted in a grooup because they will both be needed. I applaud the devs for this decision. Keep up the good work

This also makes sword and board more appealing because now AC will matter because fights will take longer.

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 09:35 PM
I'm very disappointed at the W/P nerf but I cancelled my accounts already not for that reason only, because all Turbine knows how do is to nerf.

I love this game not for the content but for the players. I roll with the best bunch of misfits on Argo. It will be painful to walk away but I just can't take this **** anymore.

so all the buffs pallies and fighters got; the **** load of new loot added to old content, revision of glancing blows... the list goes on of positive things to the game, and buffed characters classes

the only negative aspects I really see are the changes to con damage, crit rage, and transmuters.

ArkoHighStar
04-06-2009, 09:36 PM
to be honest the nerf is not that bad, so it takes 3-5 more seconds to kill something big deal, so now dps barbs and fighters are worth having around to clean up the stunned mobs after the wop barbs and rangers move to the next one, will it take a little bit longer to get through a dungeon, sure but honestly whats 3-5 minutes in the grand scheme of things

MrCow
04-06-2009, 09:37 PM
Oh drat, my +1 Wounding Heavy Crossbow of Puncturing took a hit to its market value. :p

I s'pose I can stop lugging it around for all the groups out there that periodically demand "bring WOP".

incontinetia
04-06-2009, 09:37 PM
Just a thought.

Would it have been better to give enemies a bit of fort? Maybe heavy on certain things?

Accelerando
04-06-2009, 09:38 PM
This has nothing to do with my characters. It's about design and poor decision making. Con 0 = DEATH. That's the rule, that's how it should be.

How dare they nerf con damage and make it not like PnP. :rolleyes:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Rapier_of_Puncturing

Accelerando
04-06-2009, 09:39 PM
Just a thought.

Would it have been better to give enemies a bit of fort? Maybe heavy on certain things?


No.

Galacticus
04-06-2009, 09:39 PM
to be honest the nerf is not that bad, so it takes 3-5 more seconds to kill something big deal, so now dps barbs and fighters are worth having around to clean up the stunned mobs after the wop barbs and rangers move to the next one, will it take a little bit longer to get through a dungeon, sure but honestly whats 3-5 minutes in the grand scheme of things

3-5 min of the same old grind. 3-5 mins longer repeating the same quest for ingredients that remind you of the powerball lotto game(Sorjek). The same old grind trying to get ingredients that are random and drop at a drop rate of 1:10(devil scales). It's 3-5 mins tooooo long.

The game doesn't need nerfing it needs content. Take my word for it. The new mod will suck AZZZ

Aspenor
04-06-2009, 09:40 PM
How dare they nerf con damage and make it not like PnP. :rolleyes:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Rapier_of_Puncturing

I'm pretty sure I know the SRD better than you do. Yes, I know the weapons are different.

We have about 7 times as many encounters as the typical PnP character, per "day."

You don't want to get into a discussion about comparison of PnP to DDO with me.

Roman
04-06-2009, 09:40 PM
I have several w/p rapiers, SS, MinII green steel and a bank slot full of Trans Greater Banes and I'm still excited about the new changes.

MinII and Transmuters were silly powerful.
W/P is still pretty cool, but not obscenely "easy button" powerful anymore.

I think we will see more diversity than we have ever seen before and it will make the game more interesting. I'm excited myself, things were getting too stagnant with little or no diversity.

Korvek
04-06-2009, 09:42 PM
Just a thought.

Would it have been better to give enemies a bit of fort? Maybe heavy on certain things?

Given that Fortification doesn't block effects that activate on-crit such as bursts, or in this case puncturing, no. In addition, Fortification hurts the Rogue class far more than any other, which is why its introduction as a percent-based system without a way to bypass it in any way is in and of itself a problem.

stockwizard5
04-06-2009, 09:42 PM
1. Finesse builds are dead
2. Hold Casters will need friends to kill anything

So what we have is eliminating options - and what we have left is DPS/Finger Bang. Now those were already the best options but this just puts more distance between them and the rest of the builds.

ArkoHighStar
04-06-2009, 09:43 PM
3-5 min of the same old grind. 3-5 mins longer repeating the same quest for ingredients that remind you of the powerball lotto game(Sorjek). The same old grind trying to get ingredients that are random and drop at a drop rate of 1:10(devil scales). It's 3-5 mins tooooo long.

honestly with the right set of people you will never notice 3-5 minutes, and you know that drak. For me I just hope they are done with the "polishing of the game" because something tells me the main focus of this mod was all the stuff listed and not content, and that would kill it for me

Aspenor
04-06-2009, 09:43 PM
1. Finesse builds are dead
2. Hold Casters will need friends to kill anything

So what we have is eliminating options - and what we have left is DPS/Finger Bang. Now those were already the best options but this just puts more distance between them and the rest of the builds.

Exactly correct. This eliminates options, it doesn't create them.

They might as well just remove weapon finesse from the game.

lethal413
04-06-2009, 09:43 PM
Okay the transmuting nerf is a little much but that being said,,,

This petition is for all those qqing about the WOP nerf. Get over yourself and just quit. Chances are you're not a very good player anyway.

Sign if you agree :)

Ghaldar
04-06-2009, 09:44 PM
I am kind of a little miffed about this one, purely because they are deviating so far from the core rules underlying D&D..

Zero Con is mean to kill you. Full stop.

In implementing this 'solution' they have totally nerfed the cloudkill spell (as pointed out briefly above) as one example.

I on occasion solo stuff on my wizzy when working on favour, etc. So I think its a little f*cked up that what was once a useful and dangerous spell (as it should be) now basically doesn't do anything for you.

Basically, you aren't going to kill anything with Con damage outright, so DPS becomes important once more... but they still have massively inflated Hit Points on creatures to the point of ridiculousness.

Meh.. i'll see how it plays out, and be prepared to learn from the opinions of others here.
I tend to see it as a negative, but we'll see..

You mean it wasn't nerfed when they took scrolls out and made the duration short? Was that Mod 5 or something?


While I am at it......

How many of you all ****ed off fools screamed holy hell over other changes in the past?


Human versatility?
Evasion tanks and armor?
Certain scrolls pulled from vendors?
Duration of fogs lowered?


W/P changes which most likely add what 3-5 swings on a mob..........yea I'm quitting too.....yes you can have my stuff..... Oh no cloud kill changed I won't be able to live... my caster is now gimped.



I would at least see it in combat before crying "The sky is falling" on the forums. It really does get old. Remember when they took shrines out of Threnal and a "supposed" half the game was going to quit then? Was that 2 or 3 years ago? Yea back then when it was horrible to reroll a lev 10 char. Oh and DDO isn't going to make it a year....

Mike_Fun_Spot
04-06-2009, 09:44 PM
Just a thought.

Would it have been better to give enemies a bit of fort? Maybe heavy on certain things?

Yes id love to see rouges go back to being trap monkey aahahaha. Heavy fort on all mobs i say! Sorry cache, but hey can u get this trap for me? ahahah

BigBadBarry
04-06-2009, 09:45 PM
The bottom line is that this was always meant to be a game based around grouping. I honestly don’t care about kill counts anymore, as long as the bad guys are dying and I’m not it means little to me who got the killing blow. Besides the bulk of kill counts in just about any quest is usually from trash mobs. To place much value on who killed more of what anyone could kill is silly at best.


Deathe

Based on what you wrote above I don't understand why you are so unhappy with the change.

If you think about it the WoP change encourages grouping and party mixes. Your WoP's plus my TWF Pick wielding barbarian will have a field day! You Con dmg em to zero them move on to the next target.

And thankfully you don't place much credo in Kill Count so you won't mind that you set em up and I knock em down.

Borror0
04-06-2009, 09:47 PM
To say that W/P is overpowered is just a petty argument.
The problem with w/p was that it was severely biased toward TWF (from 2 to 4 times better than S&B and ever higher compared to THF) while being the best way to kill, by a mile. For a long as w/p was the best way to kill trash mobs, S&B and THF would have been lagging pretty far behind, at that is bad for the game.

However, I agree that this is not the right way to fix the problem.

Accelerando
04-06-2009, 09:49 PM
I'm pretty sure I know the SRD better than you do. Yes, I know the weapons are different.

We have about 7 times as many encounters as the typical PnP character, per "day."

You don't want to get into a discussion about comparison of PnP to DDO with me.

[awkward moment]

Sorry you lost your easy button bud. :(

/pats Aspenor on the shoulder and consolingly straightens his pocket protector

[/awkward moment]

KiwiJoe
04-06-2009, 09:49 PM
The big change to wops is that the wielder won't be getting much of a kill count anymore - LOL

They'll knock a mob to 0 con, stun it, allow auto crits, and the DPS'ers will come along and destroy it while they will technically be wielding +1-+5 plain rapiers/SS/daggers.

This is how it should be. They should be a support weapon just like w/e, m/bb.

Live with the pain. ;)

gfunk
04-06-2009, 09:49 PM
I've never been a huge w/p user.. mostly toying around with w/p daggers and picks and puncturing rapiers. I always felt that they were not a serious imbalancing factor to the game, and I would typically use DPS weapons for a large portion of the content.

The W/P rapiers were powerful, but equally rare. It was nice to always have the anticipation of the possibility of pulling such a rare item from a chest. I remember when a friend pulled one, and she was practically beside herself. I had never seen anyone so excited about looting a chest... It was nice to see. Sadly, a bit of magic has gone out of the game with this change.

I am saddened that the dev's have made this change which in my opinion was made largely to appease some of the malcontents out there, rather then to fix and serious game imbalances. Frankly, I feel that most of the people who were calling for nerf were people who just couldn't figure out how to make decent characters anyways, so they felt they had to place the blame somewhere. W/P was an easy target (hmmm.. I suck, maybe I will suck less if they nerf the w/p guys)

I hope you don't leave Dethe, you've done a great job putting together and leading my favorite guild on the server. Consider some radience rapiers as an alternative before you pull the pin.

incontinetia
04-06-2009, 09:49 PM
Given that Fortification doesn't block effects that activate on-crit such as bursts, or in this case puncturing, no. In addition, Fortification hurts the Rogue class far more than any other, which is why its introduction as a percent-based system without a way to bypass it in any way is in and of itself a problem.

thx for clarification:)

sorry bout that rogues i totally forgot that point and i even play one lol

too much beer and a bit miffed my new(and 1st) +3rap may not be worth what i was offered a week ago. these are clouding my thinking right now:)

Accelerando
04-06-2009, 09:51 PM
Yes id love to see rouges go back to being trap monkey aahahaha. Heavy fort on all mobs i say! Sorry cache, but hey can u get this trap for me? ahahah

I give you this bright and shiny and this is how you repay me? For shame Goodwin, for shame.

Tresha_D'Artet
04-06-2009, 09:53 PM
meh further proof that who complains the most on the forums get their way. once again, to some its not about the xp, not about the favor, not about having a good time, not about that next completion...to some, sadly, its all about the kill count.

good job!! i wonder what will be too overpowered next

Gum
04-06-2009, 09:55 PM
This supposed WOP nerf should actually be called balance of the game. I think its about time actually. Now DPS matters again. I have WOP weapons but feel these are overrated anyway, now you can make a power dps build and it will be accpeted just as much as a WOP user was before this balance. Admit ti. If you have a choice of doing say Devils on elite with a DPS barb or WOP user wwhich would you have chosed. The WOP obviously, even I would have, now they will be equally accepted in a grooup because they will both be needed. I applaud the devs for this decision. Keep up the good work

This also makes sword and board more appealing because now AC will matter because fights will take longer.


I have several w/p rapiers, SS, MinII green steel and a bank slot full of Trans Greater Banes and I'm still excited about the new changes.

MinII and Transmuters were silly powerful.
W/P is still pretty cool, but not obscenely "easy button" powerful anymore.

I think we will see more diversity than we have ever seen before and it will make the game more interesting. I'm excited myself, things were getting too stagnant with little or no diversity.

Could not agree more!

hydra_ex
04-06-2009, 09:56 PM
I do not wish to express my opinions on the WoP nerf. However:


Oh drat, my +1 Wounding Heavy Crossbow of Puncturing took a hit to its market value. :p

I s'pose I can stop lugging it around for all the groups out there that periodically demand "bring WOP".

ROFLMAO!

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 09:57 PM
This has nothing to do with my characters. It's about design and poor decision making. Con 0 = DEATH. That's the rule, that's how it should be.
STR 0 should = death. DEX 0 should = death. INT 0 should = death. WIS 0 should = death. CHA 0 should = death.

And now thanks to Mockduck, we know plat 0 should = death.

hydra_ex
04-06-2009, 09:58 PM
I'm not so much disappointed with the WoP nerf as I am for the CON nerf in general.

Cloudkill was such a beautiful spells for soloing...

On a positive note, woowoo stick ftw!

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 10:00 PM
This has nothing to do with my characters. It's about design and poor decision making. Con 0 = DEATH. That's the rule, that's how it should be.

If that's the rule, what about Reincarnation being randomized race and without gear being the other rule?

Just saying... we're not playing D&D anymore are we? :cool:

Borror0
04-06-2009, 10:00 PM
Cloudkill was such a beautiful spells for soloing...
Don't you think it will be better now?


The Cloudkill spell has gained additional effects: "A bank of heavy yellowish green and poisonous fog rises up, slaying weak targets within the cloud while inflicting 1d4 Constitution damage on stronger targets, and 2d6 damage +1 per caster level (max 20) of acid damage. Successful Fortitude saves reduces the Constitution and Acid damage by half. This fog obscures sight, giving all creatures in the fog concealment (attackers have 20% miss chance). Creatures immune to poison are undamaged by this spell."
Cloudkill and Firewall will be ever better than it was.

incontinetia
04-06-2009, 10:01 PM
STR 0 should = death. DEX 0 should = death. INT 0 should = death. WIS 0 should = death. CHA 0 should = death.

And now thanks to Mockduck, we know plat 0 should = death.

And then there is my latest posts which prove 0 intel 0 wis doesnt equal death!
Yeungling lager has hidden effect!

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 10:01 PM
I'm seriously considering doing the same. The direction this game is going is apparently south.
You have the power within you to make it head north again.

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 10:02 PM
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Weapons/DwarvenThrower.jpg

So with this weapon, which doesnt beat the DR, doing 1d6 +1d8 +7str +2 dwarf +3 wpn damage you killed a bearded devil in 25-35 hits.

Lets give you a few advantages, lets assume 35 hits and max damage dice.

1d6 +1d8 +7str +3 +2 Dwarf weapon = max 26 damage

DR = 10

26-10=16 + crits = 21.2 damage per hit including crits (crits averaged out)

soooo devils have 742 hp.

Maybe they are close to that in the vale. But that is about it, shroud, subterranean, vod. Different story.

The example lacks credibility.

It was in the Vale. *shakes head* You guys pick apart everything -- yes, it was NOT in the Shroud. The question did not ask where the Devil was that I replied to. And I was averaging more like 30 pts/hit.

Lew_Ahmaquissar
04-06-2009, 10:02 PM
I think the thing to really look at is that this pulls us farther away from the actual rules of Dungeons and Dragons. A 0 CON = You are Dead. Whether anyone wants to consider it cheap or not to use wops, it is what it is. The only people whining about this are the people who didn't have them or spent too long not having them, so that when they finally gained them refused to enjoy them out of spite. Those people(the complainers) are the majority which is why wops were already balanced.
What this really is, is the unfortunate instance of our beloved game provider caving in to the needs of a bunch of whining little ninnys that need to have every accomplishment handed to them on a silver platter. Seeming how wops come from dedicated hours of playing combined with actually trading things you might not want to part with, there definitly is not any silver platters involved. Gaining the luxury of such an item comes from playing hard... a lot... or trading your actual valuables. People expect because they pay a subscription fee that they should have things just handed to them and when they dont their panties get all twisted. If you want a game where you can walk into everything on easy mode and beat it like a super hero, one handed while eating a burger then go play one of those seasame street games with no dedicated challenge. Dungeons and Dragons is one of the games where if you want to get to the "easy mode" you have to work through all the hard stuff and gain that awesome equipment such as wops... it's one of those things that sets us aside from the kiddy pool of the majority of mmo's out there.
With the absolute lose and fail of 4th edition, DDO actually becomes the last bastion of published Dungeons and Dragons that actually is worth playing and all of you who participated in the massive tear fest that caused the devs to actually change the refined, accurate and whether you want to admit it or not "balanced" rules towards something else really should be ashamed. Because of you people, they wasted their resources on this, to make things further unbalanced instead of on something useful like content or crafting.
Well, congrats whiners, now wops are not as useful like you wanted but it is also because of you that yet more base mechanics are broken and our beloved game becomes yet more unbalanced and farther away from what it is actually suppose to be based upon.
Good job A+

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 10:08 PM
So, lol, why trip something when you can use W/p without any save

Why use stunning blow when you can W/p without any save?

W/p weapons will be just like Para weapon, except they will have no Saves

Puff puff pass

Auran82
04-06-2009, 10:08 PM
I am happy with the change, I have several wp weapons, but I hated trying to roll up a THF character and feeling like I had to fit in Imp Crit Pierce for wp weapons.

Now he can follow the rogue/ranger etc around and beat up the autocrit mobs.

My bard is a little sad though, his repeater was his main kill weapon when soloing, lol.

Rogue + Radiance II + str damage weapon in offhand = ??

Oh yeah, being able to do stat damage to red nameds is nice too, I wonder if that means you can do 10 str damage, then get the wiz to debuff them down even further.

All I am hoping is that they went through and balanced the HP on the mobs with stupid high HP.

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 10:10 PM
Yes we do pick apart everything. Good to see you get it, don't post stuff you can't backup.

I don't think people here are all that worried about a vale devil. Using one of them as an example for what you come up against is like comparing a WW Kobold to a Paragon Kobold.

It is a little bit like this:

"Ran enter the kobold last night"

"First run through hey? how did you go?"

"Was ok, easy enough until the end fight, those kobolds have a few HP though, took a fair while to DPS them"

"Phht I one shot DPS kill kobolds"

This is kinda like what happened here. We were all talking about the frost giants and the devils with alot of HP. You come in and give us an example of a vale devil that will die when you sneeze at it.

It may not look like it, but i am ok with this change. Just don't like false impressions given of how it will be.

sephiroth1084
04-06-2009, 10:12 PM
The real problem with w/p weapons is that they do not "stack" with normal DPS or spells for the most part. So, if one player in a group is using w/p they aren't contributing as significantly (usually) as the other members who are using DPS. Conversely, in a group where all but one player is using w/p, that last player will not be contributing at all (in most cases).

This also means that the majority of feats, class features, spells and enhancements were rendered unnecessary since they had no affect upon w/p combat. The barbarian class is based around hitting really hard, yet barbarians would frequently ignore all of their abilities to that effect and just swing with w/p. Ranger FE, rogue SA, nearly every offensive paladin ability, evocation spells, most monk special attacks and finishers are all rendered useless when a person/group is using w/p primarily.

No other item or ability that I can think of ha that kind of affect upon the game.

Good change! And now, w/p, w/e, and other stat-damagers are on equal footing, with some being better in some situations and worse in others.

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 10:12 PM
Oh yeah, being able to do stat damage to red nameds is nice too
Now everyone will be cycling through their stat damagers: "Well, I think I've done 10 CON damage, time to switch to maladroit of bone breaking."

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 10:14 PM
Now everyone will be cycling through their stat damagers: "Well, I think I've done 10 CON damage, time to switch to maladroit of bone breaking."

red names live that long?

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 10:15 PM
Now everyone will be cycling through their stat damagers: "Well, I think I've done 10 CON damage, time to switch to maladroit of bone breaking."

He said red names, not purple.

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 10:15 PM
Yes we do pick apart everything. Good to see you get it, don't post stuff you can't backup.

You seem cranky. The post was meant to lead a few of you on a wild number crunch of witchhunting. It was mostly successful. Do you need a blanky? You know, for greensteel stuff -- would that cheer you up? :confused:

Kintro
04-06-2009, 10:16 PM
Can we have monsters who have a 0 stat just stand around and do nothing instead of crushing my skull now?

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 10:17 PM
red names live that long?
Yeah, that kobold chieftain in New Ringleader is one tough little hombre.

bobbyran2, either you need to activate your sarcasm detector or I do.

eonfreon
04-06-2009, 10:17 PM
As with anything I'll reserve final judgment on it until I see how it all actually works out in the game.
Yes, I am a more than a little apprehensive because I just see it taking A LOT longer to kill Mobs and I hope they bring hit points down to something a little more reasonable.
But maybe it'll be fine as is.
I really feel bad for Casters because, with Super High Mob Hit Points, they already lost the ability to truly Nuke Mobs before, lost the chance to insta-kill with all the deathward immunties, and now they can't even Stat damage a Mob to death.
Really, I don't think it'll effect my Dex characters all that much. Sure, I'll go way down the on the Kill Count Counter but I'll still be super effective with stat damage. Now instead of killing the Mob I just move onto the next one. If they are immobile they're still helpless right? I can do serious dps when I want anyway, pretty much any Dex Toon that hasn't completely dumped Strength can do some decent damage, just behind Strength based, like it should be.
So now when I Puncture and Wound (two separate rapiers) I'll defeat the Mob regardless (because a immobile and helpless Mob is a "dead" Mob unless they can somehow regen stat damage) but now a Strength Melee can come after I've already defeated the Mob and help finish the job bit quicker.
I'm fine with that part. As long as they are essentially defeated then killing them serves no purpose unless they can regenerate. Other then personal satisfaction of course or for those super concerned about kill counts.
I'm going to go read those release notes and see if it says anything about the Mobs regenerating. Because that would be a pain
Personally, I think the game will change alot with the upcoming Mod, so I am very curious and interested in what's coming. I have high hopes that whatever comes I'll still find more than enough enjoyment out of the game to continue playing.
I don't like a lot of the things I hear coming, but until I actually see it in action I refuse to worry about it overmuch.
I just hope that the game stays strong and interesting and I also hope that the battles are not going to take five times as long or something ridiculous like that.
Hopefully no more than 50% extra is my hope.
Turning a half hour quest into an hour long quest would be a bit much, I think.
If we don't actually have to bother killing the Mobs after we defeat them then I see no difference - let the dpsers get their kill count, they can brag all they want, we all know who really defeated the Mob before they got the kill blow in.
I just hope that they are willing to use stat damagers too and don't start using just dps weapons to get the kills without really contributing to defeating the Mobs at all.
Because killing a Mob that is immobilized while the battle is ongoing would get someone the kill count without actually contributing anything at all to the battle.
So please Strength Melees, keep your wounders and Puncturers in hand too, please, only switch to your dps weapon afterwards, or keep it in your other hand, and please, kill the Mobs after they are all immobilzed.
Don't waste time killing them while the battle rages on.
Yes and please also don't fight outside of the CC, please only fight one at a time after the Bard Hypnos and fascinates everthing, and fight things together. LOL.
Yep, this will be very interesting indeed.
For better or worse remains to be seen.

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 10:23 PM
Brilliant debating skills.

call someone cranky and offer a blanket.

BTW, not cranky at the change if that is what you were getting at. A little disappointed now that the person I was debating with turns out to be in the 7th grade.

GrayOldDruid
04-06-2009, 10:26 PM
I don't know what everyone is upset about. I have at least four WoP weapons and I don't use them all that much. For me, they're just not as fun. Same with Vorpals.

I suppose some consider accounting and number-crunching as "fun" - but I like to see strings of red numbers, maybe some purple numbers. I don't really notice the difference between killing something in 8.6 seconds and 10.1 seconds.

The people who are saying "See ya later" and "canceled my account" - by the Gods, I'd hate to see you in real life when a challenge hit. Probably be the ones saying "I quit."

All in all, the release notes sound like things are going to be pretty dang awesome!!! Now, where is the Download for Lamannia server??? I wanna get in on that! :D

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 10:28 PM
Brilliant debating skills.

call someone cranky and offer a blanket.

BTW, not cranky at the change if that is what you were getting at. A little disappointed now that the person I was debating with turns out to be in the 7th grade.

Mmm... I know that feeling. Excuse me back to my personal race of self-debate. I'm headed to SERE for 3 weeks and needed to get my fix before the beatings begin.

http://lemmycaution.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/successful-troll-is-successful.jpgin '09!

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 10:31 PM
Mmm... I know that feeling. Excuse me back to my personal race of self-debate. I'm headed to SERE for 3 weeks and needed to get my fix before the beatings begin.
Oh, SERE, schmeer. Don't you get it? They nerfed wounding of puncturing!

Edit: Hoist a cool frosty one (http://www.amonline.net.au/insects/images/insects/250/cockroach2.jpg) during the S part.

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 10:31 PM
Yeah, that kobold chieftain in New Ringleader is one tough little hombre.

bobbyran2, either you need to activate your sarcasm detector or I do.


:)

It's me then.. You can't blame me... you say some crazy stuff sometimes.

Thame
04-06-2009, 10:34 PM
If you want a game where you can walk into everything on easy mode and beat it like a super hero, one handed while eating a burger then go play one of those seasame street games with no dedicated challenge. Dungeons and Dragons is one of the games where if you want to get to the "easy mode" you have to work through all the hard stuff and gain that awesome equipment such as wops... it's one of those things that sets us aside from the kiddy pool of the majority of mmo's out there.
WOP weapons created this not people

Well, congrats whiners, now wops are not as useful like you wanted but it is also because of you that yet more base mechanics are broken and our beloved game becomes yet more unbalanced and farther away from what it is actually suppose to be based upon.
Good job A+

Look who is the one whining lol

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 10:35 PM
Oh, SERE, schmeer. Don't you get it? They nerfed wounding of puncturing!

Edit: Hoist a cool frosty one (http://www.amonline.net.au/insects/images/insects/250/cockroach2.jpg) during the S part.


You're missing the point -- I don't get a WoP at SERE but I do get Punctured and Wounded while restrained in PoW Camp. This is sere-ious. :(

PS: I love you guys and will miss you dearly as I'm entrenched in the life of Survival, Evasion and Resistance (Camp Slap-A-Dude-Senseless, USA).

EDIT: Ewww -- Mind over Matter, right? I don't think I can change that into beer no matter how hard my imagination tries.

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 10:39 PM
You're missing the point -- I don't get a WoP at SERE but I do get Punctured and Wounded while restrained in PoW Camp. This is sere-ious. :(

PS: I love you guys and will miss you dearly as I'm entrenched in the life of Survival, Evasion and Resistance (Camp Slap-A-Dude-Senseless, USA).

EDIT: Ewww -- Mind over Matter, right? I don't think I can change that into beer no matter how hard my imagination tries.
If you don't eat a big, giant bug during SERE training, you're just a big wuss.

(actually, I've never been in the military; my understanding of SERE is entirely based on the GURPS Special Ops book, but at least I know what SERE stands for)

skaltervox12
04-06-2009, 10:41 PM
So cloud kill is now "Cloud Ouchie"?

Newtons_Apple
04-06-2009, 10:41 PM
Born on a mountain top in Tennessee
The greenest state in the land of the free
Raised in the woods so's he knew ev'ry tree
Kilt him a b'ar when he was only three
Davy, Davy Crockett, king of the wild frontier

Fought single-handed through many a war
Till the enemy was whipped and peace was in store
And while he was handlin' this risky chore
He made himself a legend forever more
Davy, Davy Crockett, the man who knew no fear

He went off to Congress and served a spell
Fixin' up the Government and the laws as well
Took over Washington, so I heard tell
And he patched up the crack in the Liberty Bell
Davy, Davy Crockett, seeing his duty clear

When he came home his politic'ing was done
And the western march had just begun
So he packed his gear and his trusty gun
And lit out a-grinnin' to follow the sun
Davy, Davy Crockett, leading the pioneer

What in the sam hill have you been smoking, cause I want some...

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 10:43 PM
meh further proof that who complains the most on the forums get their way. once again, to some its not about the xp, not about the favor, not about having a good time, not about that next completion...to some, sadly, its all about the kill count.

good job!! i wonder what will be too overpowered next

um........... I thought more people whined to NOT nerf it

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 10:45 PM
I don't know what everyone is upset about. I have at least four WoP weapons and I don't use them all that much. For me, they're just not as fun. Same with Vorpals.

I suppose some consider accounting and number-crunching as "fun" - but I like to see strings of red numbers, maybe some purple numbers. I don't really notice the difference between killing something in 8.6 seconds and 10.1 seconds.

The people who are saying "See ya later" and "canceled my account" - by the Gods, I'd hate to see you in real life when a challenge hit. Probably be the ones saying "I quit."

All in all, the release notes sound like things are going to be pretty dang awesome!!! Now, where is the Download for Lamannia server??? I wanna get in on that! :D

/seconded

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 10:45 PM
If you don't eat a big, giant bug during SERE training, you're just a big wuss.

(actually, I've never been in the military; my understanding of SERE is entirely based on the GURPS Special Ops book, but at least I know what SERE stands for)

rotflmao!!!!!

You're too much man. GURPS!? OMG I can't believe that's in there!!!

PS: I think it's a requirement to pass in non-snow months (ie eat bugs).

OT: How dare they remove WoPs lethality!!!! Do we get full trade-in value?

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 10:45 PM
What in the sam hill have you been smoking, cause I want some...
What if that happens to be spelled the same way as what we call a person from Poland?


rotflmao!!!!!

You're too much man. GURPS!? OMG I can't believe that's in there!!!

PS: I think it's a requirement to pass in non-snow months (ie eat bugs).
There's a GURPS book for just about any RPG genre you can think of. The Special Ops book probably doesn't specifically mention eating bugs during SERE training (but an old Fantasy Games Unlimited game called Aftermath does include rules for figuring the nutritional value of human flesh, along with the encumberance value of a book of matches).

Kistilan
04-06-2009, 10:49 PM
What if that happens to be spelled the same way as what we call a person from Poland?

Silly, Pol's aren't called Cannabis -- that's a plant. You can't smoke a plant. It has to be processed.

Junts
04-06-2009, 11:00 PM
I go both ways on this:

I have a wop rapier on my main and its the main reason he can outkill a vast majority of toons in the game (s/b with attack speed boosts and ic was all it took to kill any mob in the game in 2-3 seconds), and understandably this hurts him

On the other hand, the SoS i ran last night where my bard, using a +3 wop dagger, had -over 50% of all the kill count- in a group with other melees (said bard is not a melee build, it has 22 str before rage and is not a warchanter) present is completely and utterly ********. While I appreciate the ability for him to do so, it was in no way remotely good game design that I was drastically outkilling the dps specced paladin/barbarians in the group.


Unfortunately, unless it is tweaked module 8 content is now going to be absurdly difficult: probably harder than module 9 content, I would guess


The changes to make dps more effective need to be retrofitted to module 7 and 8 content: vorpals are fine for mod6 and dps even works ok there, but the subterrane/sub raids/mod8 giants are out of control and a big part of why w/p was so overpowered.

eonfreon
04-06-2009, 11:06 PM
It was nice knowing ya. Enjoy your trip to the Lordsmarch Bank.
:D

LOL. Really? Your dpser doesn't want my guy WoPing the MOB for you to kill them?
I hope you still wield your Wounder or Puncturer or Weakener or Enfeebler until all the Mob are immoblized and helpess BEFORE you start killing them otherwise you're still not actually contributing, you're just getting the kill count after the Mobs have already been defeated by the WoP user.
The WoP user that could solo everything before still can,he just has to spend a little extra time killing before moving on.
Yep, this change won't make me give up either one of my Puncturing Rpaiers, neither my Transmuting one nor my Cursespewing one. nor my Holy Wounder, or my Weakeners or Enfeeblers.
Sure, I'll probably be annoyed every so often by some silly dpser getting all the kills and constantly bragging while in actuality contributing nothing to the battle, but I'm used to those guys, now at least I won't have to constantly listen to how they would be as high up in kill counts if they also had a WoP, and that it's not fair, etc.
I really think the whole "issue" could have been "fixed" by adding one more counter to the kill count: Red Boss Damage.
That way the WoP user can say " I killed 100 trash Mob to your 50, I'm Uber" and the dpser can say "Yeah well I did 120000 points of damage to your 60000, I'm Uberer'.
LOL "Enjoy your trip to Lordsmarch Bank".
Right. Sure. well at least your sense of humor made me laugh.

Maxwell1380
04-06-2009, 11:07 PM
Im just really glad i sold mine when i did!

Zenako
04-06-2009, 11:13 PM
One point being missed in the w/p nerf arguement is this.

Old style: swing swing swing take mob to 0 con = mob dead = move on

New style: swing swing swing take mob to 0 con = mob helpless = move on

There are very few quests where you have to kill every mob and most of those are low level runs before you can even wield a w/p.

So how are things changed? Mobs taken out of action in the same time.

It also means that quests like Dust become a lot easier to avoid killing them spiders as do many other "avoid killing certain mobs" quests.

Raithe
04-06-2009, 11:19 PM
New style: swing swing swing take mob to 0 con = mob helpless = move on


"Helpless" mobs have never been helpless in my experience. They can still move, they can still attack (but not cast spells).

The new method will simply be to use weakening picks of maiming, in my estimation. It will result in even less effective mobs that are even more boring to kill, and all so the guy with the big strength and heavy pick gets the larger kill count?

This was a non-issue to me, and still is. I'm just not sure why the change does anything good.

Nevthial
04-06-2009, 11:23 PM
It also means that quests like Dust become a lot easier to avoid killing them spiders as do many other "avoid killing certain mobs" quests.

You have a good point there.....

Mhykke
04-06-2009, 11:25 PM
You seem cranky. The post was meant to lead a few of you on a wild number crunch of witchhunting. It was mostly successful. Do you need a blanky? You know, for greensteel stuff -- would that cheer you up? :confused:

So you meant to insert yourself into a conversation and look foolish in the process?

You're saying that was intentional?

Huh, weird.

Newtons_Apple
04-06-2009, 11:26 PM
oh Drat, My +1 Wounding Heavy Crossbow Of Puncturing Took A Hit To Its Market Value. :p

I S'pose I Can Stop Lugging It Around For All The Groups Out There That Periodically Demand "bring Wop".

Lmao

eonfreon
04-06-2009, 11:27 PM
"Helpless" mobs have never been helpless in my experience. They can still move, they can still attack (but not cast spells).

The new method will simply be to use weakening picks of maiming, in my estimation. It will result in even less effective mobs that are even more boring to kill, and all so the guy with the big strength and heavy pick gets the larger kill count?

This was a non-issue to me, and still is. I'm just not sure why the change does anything good.

This is pretty much how I see it. THe WoP will still be doing all the work but now a dpser can get his kill count up.
Yay for that at least. The whining was getting too much.
Also, I don't know if it'll apply to Mobs but from what I read Stat damage will now regenerate ( along with Level Drain so Yay for that at least), so it may be a good idea to kill that immobilzed Mob before it regenerates and is a pain later.

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 11:28 PM
LOL. Really? Your dpser doesn't want my guy WoPing the MOB for you to kill them?
I hope you still wield your Wounder or Puncturer or Weakener or Enfeebler until all the Mob are immoblized and helpess BEFORE you start killing them otherwise you're still not actually contributing, you're just getting the kill count after the Mobs have already been defeated by the WoP user.
The WoP user that could solo everything before still can,he just has to spend a little extra time killing before moving on.
Yep, this change won't make me give up either one of my Puncturing Rpaiers, neither my Transmuting one nor my Cursespewing one. nor my Holy Wounder, or my Weakeners or Enfeeblers.
Sure, I'll probably be annoyed every so often by some silly dpser getting all the kills and constantly bragging while in actuality contributing nothing to the battle, but I'm used to those guys, now at least I won't have to constantly listen to how they would be as high up in kill counts if they also had a WoP, and that it's not fair, etc.
I really think the whole "issue" could have been "fixed" by adding one more counter to the kill count: Red Boss Damage.
That way the WoP user can say " I killed 100 trash Mob to your 50, I'm Uber" and the dpser can say "Yeah well I did 120000 points of damage to your 60000, I'm Uberer'.
LOL "Enjoy your trip to Lordsmarch Bank".
Right. Sure. well at least your sense of humor made me laugh.

No... I'd rather your woper help dps.

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 11:29 PM
The new method will simply be to use weakening picks of maiming, in my estimation.
You're making it hard to predict the new wounding rapier of puncturing. Will it be the weakening kukri of enfeebling? The transmuting <weapon> of pure good? Now you're saying the weakening (heavy?) pick of maiming. Why not the bodyfeeder <blunt weapon> of everbright, yeah, that's the ticket.

Darn it, I need answers!

Bilger
04-06-2009, 11:29 PM
Why not test this out on new test server or wait till mod comes out before complaining. Might not be as bad as you think.

eonfreon
04-06-2009, 11:33 PM
No... I'd rather your woper help dps.

Sure as long as your dpser helps WoP ;).
Sounds fair to me.
A WoP weapon does dps btw.

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 11:35 PM
Sure as long as your dpser helps WoP ;).
Sounds fair to me.
A WoP weapon does dps btw.

No... now all those wopers are gonna be like the people with W/E that think they're helping, and have to tell me they're using W/E every 5 minutes to try to convince me they're helping.

W/P was really the only stat damage worth using except in rare situations where you were trying to incapacitate but not kill.

Just craft some greensteel.

deathtouch
04-06-2009, 11:43 PM
How dare they nerf con damage and make it not like PnP. :rolleyes:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Rapier_of_Puncturing

How dare mobs have 10,000hps and end bosses have 100,000+ is that in PNP?!?!?!!

weyoun
04-06-2009, 11:52 PM
honestly with the right set of people you will never notice 3-5 minutes, and you know that drak. For me I just hope they are done with the "polishing of the game" because something tells me the main focus of this mod was all the stuff listed and not content, and that would kill it for me

Honestly you can't tell me if I will notice 3-5 minutes because I will. Its arrogant of you to imply otherwise.

We all knew this was coming, as Maels said, when the Mournlanders started leaking it a long time ago. Turbine, you need to get your arms around that debaucle.

This change was implemented by all the whining have-nots here, congrats to you all. You've whined your way to a change that ****s over a thousand builds all cause you couldn't figure out how to get a wop or manage to kill mobs in Prey. WoPs were what they were, if you had one, it was good times, if you didn't you still got it done. So why the nerf Turbine? It seems that the devs don't like players ripping through their content with items they introduced into the game. Its a cop-out. Its weak. It lacks imagination. It narrows the choices of the players.

eonfreon
04-06-2009, 11:53 PM
No... now all those wopers are gonna be like the people with W/E that think they're helping, and have to tell me they're using W/E every 5 minutes to try to convince me they're helping.

W/P was really the only stat damage worth using except in rare situations where you were trying to incapacitate but not kill.

Just craft some greensteel.

So you don't want the Mobs immobilized and Auto-Critted for your and my Greensteel?

honkuimushi
04-07-2009, 12:03 AM
I have several w/p rapiers, SS, MinII green steel and a bank slot full of Trans Greater Banes and I'm still excited about the new changes.

MinII and Transmuters were silly powerful.
W/P is still pretty cool, but not obscenely "easy button" powerful anymore.

I think we will see more diversity than we have ever seen before and it will make the game more interesting. I'm excited myself, things were getting too stagnant with little or no diversity.

Min2 is still godly powerful. They even got Con damage added to them. In fact, the gap with random Transmuters got about 10x as large. The only ones that keep up are Transmuters of Pure Good.

I do not have any WoP weapons, but I'm really ****ed about this change. I see this as really hurting Finesse characters who used a lot of stat damagers. Ranged Bards and other ranged support characters really get hurt by this as well. Between the damage regeneration and the lack of kills what good are stat damagers unless you're trying not to kill something or prepping something for a FoD?

First they removed Stat damage from Red and Purple Names and I could see that. But removing Con kills from regular mobs? If they're really that concerned, give mob clerics Lesser Restore and Restoration. They can heal their stat Damage and slow us down a bit. The addition of limited stat Damage to Red Names is a good step. I wish that had been the first fix and I'd like to see it added to Purple Names as well. I could even see stat regen on Red and Purple Names, but this is BS.

This also makes random loot even less useful. What really good items can be found in random chest loot anymore? Transmuters of Pure Good?

Vendra
04-07-2009, 12:13 AM
So here is my thought on this. I certainly do not agree with con 0 no longer being a kill because thats the way it is in PnP. But to all those that have a WOP at least look at it this way, reducing them all the way to 0 con should greatly reduce their HP as well. I mean at 0 con you should be getting -5 HP per hit dice per level and if you doing all crits then you are certainly doing to take them down fast.

I am happy to see that we can do stat damage to red names now. That really makes me very happy.

QuantumFX
04-07-2009, 12:22 AM
So you don't want the Mobs immobilized and Auto-Critted for your and my Greensteel?

No. And he hates monks for the exact same reason. :rolleyes:


That's the intelligent response we've come to expect from you. As always you offer nothing but the most insightful commentary. So how is ruining thousands of hours of twinking of so many people a good thing? Because it makes your gimpy little coeterie of noobs feel more uber? Gratz!

Um... Do you realize you're giving the annoying little forum troll that he wants? It's pretty obvious all he wants is attention.

Nevthial
04-07-2009, 12:28 AM
..... I guess we really wont know if everything is totally borked until we test it out. I will say this, Nerfs always make me unhappy. Well, the Evasion in heavy armour fix made me happy, but that's different ......

0 CON not insta-killing is going to be either a nuisance, or outright game breaking for some. I do feel for those who built characters around something we figured wouldn't be changed. I mean, who would've thought they would change a base mechanic of the D20 system to something nearly totally different?????????

Thank the stars I made my Monk Str based and not Dex based like I began to.....

Olympia
04-07-2009, 12:38 AM
the W/p Rapiers Were Powerful, But Equally Rare. It Was Nice To Always Have The Anticipation Of The Possibility Of Pulling Such A Rare Item From A Chest. I Remember When A Friend Pulled One, And She Was Practically Beside Herself. I Had Never Seen Anyone So Excited About Looting A Chest... It Was Nice To See. Sadly, A Bit Of Magic Has Gone Out Of The Game With This Change.

Qft.

eonfreon
04-07-2009, 12:48 AM
No. And he hates monks for the exact same reason. :rolleyes:
.

Well that's just.... strange.

Tresha_D'Artet
04-07-2009, 12:53 AM
um........... I thought more people whined to NOT nerf it

in case you didnt see Weyouns post:

"This change was implemented by all the whining have-nots here, congrats to you all. You've whined your way to a change that ****s over a thousand builds all cause you couldn't figure out how to get a wop or manage to kill mobs in Prey. WoPs were what they were, if you had one, it was good times, if you didn't you still got it done. So why the nerf Turbine? It seems that the devs don't like players ripping through their content with items they introduced into the game. Its a cop-out. Its weak. It lacks imagination. It narrows the choices of the players."

however, its the same as kicking a dead horse, whats done is done, some will gloat over the change, some will remain irritated for a long time. Personally, i agree with Weyouns post.
i noticed earlier that the way lag is being fixed, is adding more :D WOOT!
i love this lol, now if only mass barkskin can be added, remove mass camo permamently!! and please....please...either remove human male dances from the game or give them different ones, for the love of whatever you love PLEASE! no more human male toon dances!!

Accelerando
04-07-2009, 01:00 AM
So you don't want the Mobs immobilized and Auto-Critted for your and my Greensteel?

If I did I would bring Monks with Malidroit Handwraps into my groups.


This is pretty much how I see it. THe WoP will still be doing all the work but now a dpser can get his kill count up.


Will they?



LOL. Really? Your dpser doesn't want my guy WoPing the MOB for you to kill them?
I hope you still wield your Wounder or Puncturer or Weakener or Enfeebler until all the Mob are immoblized and helpess BEFORE you start killing them otherwise you're still not actually contributing, you're just getting the kill count after the Mobs have already been defeated by the WoP user.
The WoP user that could solo everything before still can,he just has to spend a little extra time killing before moving on.
Yep, this change won't make me give up either one of my Puncturing Rpaiers, neither my Transmuting one nor my Cursespewing one. nor my Holy Wounder, or my Weakeners or Enfeeblers.
Sure, I'll probably be annoyed every so often by some silly dpser getting all the kills and constantly bragging while in actuality contributing nothing to the battle, but I'm used to those guys, now at least I won't have to constantly listen to how they would be as high up in kill counts if they also had a WoP, and that it's not fair, etc.
I really think the whole "issue" could have been "fixed" by adding one more counter to the kill count: Red Boss Damage.
That way the WoP user can say " I killed 100 trash Mob to your 50, I'm Uber" and the dpser can say "Yeah well I did 120000 points of damage to your 60000, I'm Uberer'.
LOL "Enjoy your trip to Lordsmarch Bank".
Right. Sure. well at least your sense of humor made me laugh.

I guess. It seems more like it made you go out and get really drunk and then come back to the forums to vent.


Sure as long as your dpser helps WoP ;).
A WoP weapon does dps btw.

No, and not really.


How dare mobs have 10,000hps and end bosses have 100,000+ is that in PNP?!?!?!!

That is the vicious cycle created by WoP in the first place. These weapons were a mistake from the beginning. The first time I wielded a set, far before everyone was clamoring all over each other to get them, I said to myself, "This is so broken."

Now it is fixed. Good for you Turbine. Good for you. I guess this was what they meant by making damage meaningful again.

Timjc86
04-07-2009, 01:01 AM
PLEASE! no more human male toon dances!!

What!? It's my favorite one!! (Seriously.)

C'mon, you can't honestly tell me this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wzZZW8jbLM) doesn't make you smile... can you? Not even this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xugPIQDWvo)!?

Ranmaru2
04-07-2009, 01:24 AM
That is the vicious cycle created by WoP in the first place. These weapons were a mistake from the beginning. The first time I wielded a set, far before everyone was clamoring all over each other to get them, I said to myself, "This is so broken."

Now it is fixed. Good for you Turbine. Good for you. I guess this was what they meant by making damage meaningful again.

WoP didn't create this problem at all. Their idiotic shroud crafting ideas created this problem! We found an alternative to beating on a mob for 20-40 seconds and now we're getting it taken away because they were too stupid to think about how the shroud items would affect how they'd have to make future content. A 400-1000 damage smack of elemental or non-elemental damage may sound awesome at first, but oh ****...we're gonna have to compensate for this in EVERY quest from here on out. Who the hell ok'd this idea in the first place?

The Devs inability to look into the future is why they have to nerf stuff in the first place. Monk Wis bonus and the bonus it would grant, for example, was something by brother had planned out as soon as monks were announced to be released. He had the build (which was later called the Iron Monk) made 2 months before the mod and just waited on level 16 so he could get his max ac.

If the devs would actually analyze where the multiclass options or even the class options come from and see what people are planning for mods in terms of classes, they could prevent a whole slew of problems that they run into!

ahpook
04-07-2009, 01:26 AM
I'm pretty sure I know the SRD better than you do. Yes, I know the weapons are different.

We have about 7 times as many encounters as the typical PnP character, per "day."

You don't want to get into a discussion about comparison of PnP to DDO with me.

So puncturing should be a 21 times per rest clicky? That is still significantly less than the several hundred crits you get now between rests. Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that people still think that WoPs are not uber or broken.

If you are going to take a stand that CON=0 is death shouldn't you have taken that stand a long time ago when STR=0 or DEX=0 didn't mean that "the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground."?

Having said that, I think this was a lame way to fix it. If the problem is Wounding or Puncturing (and it was, no other form of con dmg was overpowered), then the solution should have been a direct nerf, IMHO. Seems like that would have the least side effects. Just change puncturing (and bonebreaking and enfeebling) to only go off on a 20 or some hidden percentage (like GreenSteel effects). It has a lower +Value compared to wounding (and maladroit and weakening) after all so it should be less effective (for all weapons). IMHO, these should never have been on crit effects. Or go with AD's suggestion.

I still remember the cries of doom when FW was nerfed. Turned out that it was still the best spell an arcane could learn. Only was really nerfed when they started releasing mobs with immunity to firewall. I prefer this change to simply making all new mobs undead and constructs (or simply immune through dev whims).

Anyway, I hope you give the change a chance to see how it plays and don't leave over it. In the end rolling with the changes can give you new ways to play your character.

To recap: WoP nerf is needed. This way to nerf it though is weak.

Jendrak
04-07-2009, 01:28 AM
The only way them changeing stat dmg is not gonna screw this up is if they also modify the HP of all the high end mobs down a little bit so that it doesnt take a full party to drop a single giant.

Maybe thats overstateing it but yall get the point.

ahpook
04-07-2009, 01:30 AM
The only way them changeing stat dmg is not gonna screw this up is if they also modify the HP of all the high end mobs down a little bit so that it doesnt take a full party to drop a single giant.

Maybe thats overstateing it but yall get the point.

Perhaps. Except I think that might have been the point of those giants.

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 01:32 AM
Just change puncturing (and bonebreaking and enfeebling) to only go off on a 20
That seems like a better way, as it makes all puncturing/enfeebling/bone-breaking weapons the same, as all vorpals are. And I still say "any stat reduced to 0 should = death."

beelzebaba
04-07-2009, 01:44 AM
This isnt going to kill anyones build , maybe just their egos.

finesse builds can still use them and will get kills when alone, like when aan AC build runs ahead and kills mobs.

It will only cost them in kill count when a real DPS person takes mob out in 1 whack after the mob is autocrited.

Accelerando
04-07-2009, 01:50 AM
New Best Party Makeup:

1 Sorc
2 Unarmed Monks With Maladroit of Weighted 5%
3 Qstaff Monks, Acrobat II Rogues, or Blunt Specced Kensai (LMAO) With Woo Woo Sticks.

All WF, to the man. See ya Rangers!

Angelus_dead
04-07-2009, 01:58 AM
Perhaps. Except I think that might have been the point of those giants.
Exactly. Many people complain that without wounding-puncturing it'll take 10 times as long to kill certain monsters- but that was the objective.

A party working together can have 1000-1500 DPS or even more, and if they have some tactical leadership they'll all focus on the same monster at once. The reason mobs were given 10,000+ hp is so that they can keep fighting for at least 10 seconds; long enough to attack more than once or twice.

Raithe
04-07-2009, 02:02 AM
I agree that a direct nerf to all stat damage would have been the better way.

Puncturing, however, has never been better than wounding. It required a feat or a weapon prefix (that could have been used for something else if wounders were used instead) to make it do as much stat damage. Other people have made the same observation. Wounding kamas on a monk, as I remember one person stating it, allowed killing faster than DPS by a significant margin.

And, as a test, I just went into Aussircaex's Valley on my ranger with weakening weapons, one of which was a pick. There is simply no way that DPS is going to win out over stat damage:

My ranger killed almost as fast as puncturing against the wolves, flensors, and mephits. Two to three seconds to auto-crit, then another two to four seconds massive damage.

Against the giants, it was a bit different. It was about 5 to 6 seconds till the giants couldn't hit very well. About 20 to 30 seconds till autocrit. Then another 10 to 15 seconds massive damage. If you divide each of those durations by 3 melee in a typical party, and add some bard songs/recitation/gh and the like, you are probably looking at 2 seconds till weak, 7-10 seconds till autocrit, and 2-4 seconds more till dead. That's about a 15-second fight, and I'd wager most DPS groups will take significantly longer. The weakening battle has the advantage of not taking as much damage by a big margin, too.

Quite frankly, they never should have introduced stat damage weapons at all.

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 02:23 AM
Quite frankly, they never should have introduced stat damage weapons at all.
Probably the best solution.

eonfreon
04-07-2009, 02:33 AM
Probably the best solution.

How can wishing that something doesn't exists that "shouldn't exist in the first place" but already does exist possibly be the "best solution"?
What are you; obsessed? ;)

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 02:37 AM
How can wishing that something doesn't exists that "shouldn't exist in the first place" but already does exist possibly be the "best solution"?
What are you; obsessed? ;)
It would be the best if it were practical, which it clearly is not. It opened up a gnarly can or worms.

eonfreon
04-07-2009, 02:42 AM
It would be the best if it were practical, which it clearly is not. It opened up a gnarly can or worms.

Not really sure what you mean here.
What is or is not practical?
Removing all stat damagers?
Yeah, you're right that would open up a can of worms.
Once it's been introduced to try and completely remove it would probably be a big mistake.
So if your "solution" is to wish that it hadn't been introduced in the first place, then it's not much of solution, more of a dream or a wish.

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 02:48 AM
Not really sure what you mean here.
What is or is not practical?
Removing all stat damagers?
Exactly.


Yeah, you're right that would open up a can of worms.
That's not what I meant, but yes, it would. Putting them in the game in the first place also opened a can of worms.

Mudcnd
04-07-2009, 02:50 AM
[COLOR="DarkRed"][QUOTE=branmakmuffin;2132169]STR 0 should = death. DEX 0 should = death. INT 0 should = death. WIS 0 should = death. CHA 0 should = death.


Thats the way it should be. No reason Wop should be all that and WoE is ****.

eonfreon
04-07-2009, 02:55 AM
That's not what I meant, but yes, it would. Putting them in the game in the first place also opened a can of worms.

Well I suppose, but to me it seems the incredibly high Mob hit points, from the attempt to nerf the Nuking type Caster, is what caused the dominance of the WoP.

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 03:08 AM
Well I suppose, but to me it seems the incredibly high Mob hit points, from the attempt to nerf the Nuking type Caster, is what caused the dominance of the WoP.
Which caused wounding of puncturing to be regarded by many as necessary to be considered a top-notch melee character, which caused (presumably) lots of people to make Tempest Rangers and/or crit rage Barbarians geared towards dual-wielding wounding rapiers of puncturing, arguably leading to a reduction in melee character variety.

beelzebaba
04-07-2009, 03:12 AM
maybe they could have made the puncturing effect only have 1d3 damage.

I dont really see what the big deal is.

eonfreon
04-07-2009, 03:28 AM
Which caused wounding of puncturing to be regarded by many as necessary to be considered a top-notch melee character, which caused (presumably) lots of people to make Tempest Rangers and/or crit rage Barbarians geared towards dual-wielding wounding rapiers of puncturing, arguably leading to a reduction in melee character variety.

Yes, and my point exactly.
Are you just continuing the train of thought or are you saying something different?
Well, if I can extrapolate:
So perhaps what you're saying is that if WoP had never been introduced then when the Caster Nuking nerf occurred, we wouldn't have been able to compensate by going to Stat Damage, and therefore dps would be the only way to take out most Mobs, then everything would be working as intended and everything would be fine?
Nah, whatever may happen, I CANNOT agree that not having ANY stat damagers in the game would be a better solution to this than the way it's currently slated to be changed.
The complete omission of a choice is not preferred.
Re-balancing is certainly preferred, even a nerf of this type, to never having the item in game.
I thought the idea was to create more choices by making them have their pros and cons, not take the choice away completely.
But anyway, all that's irrelevent, I hope.
I really have no big problem with this change.
As much as I joked about the dpser coming along and getting the kill, I don't really think that'll happen too much anyway.

Riggs
04-07-2009, 03:58 AM
Auto stun on something with 5000 hit points is still going to take forever to kill.

The short sighted nurf to wops doesnt fix the underlying problem of the game balance.

Wops only because 'overpowered' after mod 6, because suddenly instead of fighting monsters with 500 hit points, or 1000, everything had 3000, 5000, 10,000 hit points.

Turbine gimped dps out of the market, and suddenly wops became 'king'.

Unless mod 9 is also dropping the hit points to some kind of sane level - like level 20 monsters that dont have 200 levels worth of hit points - then game balance is still going to be messed up bad.

If hit points were jacked up exponentially because of nuking sorcs - maybe Turbine shouldnt have made sorcs get 2x the sp, and 2x the casting speed, and 2x the sp bonus from items to make sorcs so uber in the first place - along with making only like 4 spells useful after mod 5.

Why be a wizard with the 'hey I can swap spells' benefit...when a sorc has all the spells that are useful in the game and twice the casting power?

Fix hit points on monsters.

Fix sorcs.

Then wops wouldnt have mattered anyway.

I dont really give a rats behind about Wizards of the Coast's change to 'challenge rating'....D&D was balanced to hit dice - a level 16 fighter had 16 hit dice, +16 to hit, etc. A monster at 16 had 16 hit dice, +16 to hit...so a level 16 monster and a level 16 fighter were not too far off in power....now a monster in a 'level 16 quest' might have 40 hit dice, and be immune to level 16 effects along with now having 5000 hit points....not balanced.

Anyway...maybe there are more fixes coming, many have been good from what I read - but massive hit points isnt mentioned. (Along with air elemental knockdown, no-fail overrun, and phasing ghosts that can phase 5 times a round every .3 seconds)

bobbryan2
04-07-2009, 03:59 AM
Heh... on Thelanis, I just saw not 1, not 2, not 3, but 7 WoPs (not counting picks even) go up on the AH.

Vendra
04-07-2009, 09:56 AM
Heh... on Thelanis, I just saw not 1, not 2, not 3, but 7 WoPs (not counting picks even) go up on the AH.

Sweet! I am going to see if I can pick some up. The nerf does not make them useless so if they are cheep then I will buy them

ahpook
04-07-2009, 10:29 AM
Auto stun on something with 5000 hit points is still going to take forever to kill.
...

Fix hit points on monsters.


Truthfully, there were only 3 (non-boss) monsters that had excessive HP . Giants in the the Refuge quests, Elite Orthons, and Elite Horned Devils in the shroud (and those last 2 are not really that hard to DPS). DPS was still fine on everything else in the game except for finesse builds.

Kadran
04-07-2009, 10:39 AM
This change is ****ing ridiculous, pointless, and stupid.

Way to go all you crybabies.

I'm not even going to point out the irony of this post, as I did 2 of your others. You're just upset beyond reason.

stockwizard5
04-07-2009, 05:19 PM
1. There must be a fix to the lag or Mod9 is irrelevent
2. Some numbers for Sorjak Giants (example)

Current WoP Rapier 15.4 Hits
Current WoP H Pick 23.4
Current GS Khopesh 33.3

New WoP Rapier 29.6
New WoP H Pick 38.6
New GS Khopesh 33.3

So stuff takes ~ twice as long to kill which for Sorjak just makes it even more boring than it already is to grind for runes.

3. Test server players did firesale changed items (and buy new useful ones) and they should be perma-banned from both the test server and the game - ethics matter (and that goes for players and developers equally).

4. Not only does this weaken finesse builds even farther but the value of enchantment casters is hurt even more. Driving players towards DPS/FoD limits options which is bad game design.

5. The change to WoP was retributive (as were the original abbot changes) due to players "insulting" the developers by beating quests too quickly (using valid but unexpected ways). Instead of applauding creativity they are systematically eliminating it. Although this simplifies things for new/casual players (clearly the goal over the recent year) it does so at the expense of damaging the Power Gamer whose business is no longer a priority. As a power gamer it is not enjoyable to "fight" the developers to try and continue to enjoy my DDO experience.

6. Opening chests and receiving end rewards that hold no excitement is bad game design. There should be very rare (non-static) items that are better than essentially guaranteed static items.

7. Release notes for Mod9 contained a number of unexpected (or intended to be unexpected) changes. Considering the amount of time Mod9 has been in development it is highly unfortunate that the notes did not include more positives to excite the player base in exchange. For example ... four new raids, twenty new quests, real new crafting, updated raid loot, and far more spells would have mitigated the current negative feedback.

Considering the need to address the lag issue first, perhaps after a short preview period on Lamania to identify issues and generate some excitement, it might be better to get the lag fixed and then release a more mature Mod9 with more content and more positive updates later.

Aspenor
04-07-2009, 05:25 PM
1. There must be a fix to the lag or Mod9 is irrelevent
2. Some numbers for Sorjak Giants (example)

Current WoP Rapier 15.4 Hits
Current WoP H Pick 23.4
Current GS Khopesh 33.3

New WoP Rapier 29.6
New WoP H Pick 38.6
New GS Khopesh 33.3

So stuff takes ~ twice as long to kill which for Sorjak just makes it even more boring than it already is to grind for runes.

3. Test server players did firesale changed items (and buy new useful ones) and they should be perma-banned from both the test server and the game - ethics matter (and that goes for players and developers equally).

4. Not only does this weaken finesse builds even farther but the value of enchantment casters is hurt even more. Driving players towards DPS/FoD limits options which is bad game design.

5. The change to WoP was retributive (as were the original abbot changes) due to players "insulting" the developers by beating quests too quickly (using valid but unexpected ways). Instead of applauding creativity they are systematically eliminating it. Although this simplifies things for new/casual players (clearly the goal over the recent year) it does so at the expense of damaging the Power Gamer whose business is no longer a priority. As a power gamer it is not enjoyable to "fight" the developers to try and continue to enjoy my DDO experience.

6. Opening chests and receiving end rewards that hold no excitement is bad game design.
I know we've had our differences before SW, but all I can respond to this is that you I am 100% in agreement with everything you've posted on these topics.

juniorpfactors
04-08-2009, 09:30 AM
I know we've had our differences before SW, but all I can respond to this is that you I am 100% in agreement with everything you've posted on these topics.

concur, maels is the doctor on this stuff, still 18 days since I have gamed, thats a sad thing

jrp