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Show_me_the_Platinum
03-14-2009, 06:15 PM
Or does everything recently seem to be going to "This class does this and only this!" or is it just me? I've seen a lot of possibilities out there such as fighters who can out-range rangers. Clerics that out DPS barbarians. Paladins who heal as good as clerics.

Missing_Minds
03-15-2009, 10:34 AM
Or does everything recently seem to be going to "This class does this and only this!" or is it just me? I've seen a lot of possibilities out there such as fighters who can out-range rangers. Clerics that out DPS barbarians. Paladins who heal as good as clerics.

People have been spewing that from day one. *shrugs*

cdbd3rd
03-15-2009, 10:36 AM
People have been spewing that from day one. *shrugs*



Agreed. The framing remains the same, only the faces and the names change on a Modly basis.

;)

Canopenner
03-15-2009, 10:51 AM
I love making builds that dont do what they are supposed to.

Anyone who tells me that I dont know how to build for class can suck it. Usually its people mad about not getting heals cause Im playing an infliction cleric(a horrible build btw, dont try it).

But yeah I also have a repeater fighter, a warforged repair sorc, a healing pally, a UMD rogue, DV cleric (cha higher than wis), a haggle bard, the list goes on and on. I got 24 alts total and its just boring being the same ol same ol build.

Aranticus
03-15-2009, 10:51 AM
Or does everything recently seem to be going to "This class does this and only this!" or is it just me? I've seen a lot of possibilities out there such as fighters who can out-range rangers. Clerics that out DPS barbarians. Paladins who heal as good as clerics.

i find it kinda strange that you can see so many possibilities yet cant see a rogue doing more dps than a barb... or be a tank....

Show_me_the_Platinum
03-15-2009, 09:58 PM
i find it kinda strange that you can see so many possibilities yet cant see a rogue doing more dps than a barb... or be a tank....

Hey wrong thread get back to that other one *kicks back to the shroud thread*

Seriously though I never said rouges can't be DPS... I just said they weren't well suited to DPS anything with over 300 HP... ok 301-350 HP

hydra_ex
03-15-2009, 10:23 PM
A paladin CANNOT heal as well as a cleric for the simple reason THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE THE HEAL SPELL. A paladin can heal very well, and tank well, but cannot outheal a cleric. A cleric CANNOT OUTDPS A BARBARIAN. This is because they lack abilities which increase their combat ability past that of a medeocre Paladin.

I'm all for you on not pidgeonholing a class, but saying that a <class designed to do x, and a little of y> and do y better than a <class designed to do y> is a big mistake.

Oh, and just to add, rogue's x is backstab damage, as long as that can go on, the rogue is one of the best dpses in the game.

And backstab damage is easy to get, just diplo or bluff, it really doesn't need to be that high; 40 should be enough for most trash mobs.

P.S. A "low HP" monster probably has 1500-2000+ hp, not 300.

FluffyCalico
03-15-2009, 10:36 PM
This is due to group size. If we had a limit of 4 players builds that do more than 1 thing all kinda well would be good to have. With 12 people in raids you want people who can do what they do the best of anyone. Not someone who can do alittle of all except maybe as filler once you have what you need already.

RATRACE931
03-15-2009, 10:39 PM
lol a rogue not suited to dps anything more than 400... thats funny, i have a rogue with +42 damage base some non wh0reforge barbs dont have that. and with an extra 5d6+20 sneak attack damage factored in along with weapon procs and weapon damage i can hit 110 easily without critting.

Missing_Minds
03-16-2009, 08:29 AM
lol a rogue not suited to dps anything more than 400... thats funny, i have a rogue with +42 damage base some non wh0reforge barbs dont have that. and with an extra 5d6+20 sneak attack damage factored in along with weapon procs and weapon damage i can hit 110 easily without critting.

+42 huh? Lets just have a look at this.

Max min weapon damage is 2. (assuming a 2 die weapon). +5 for the best enhancement. You can not count any elemental effect at all due to possible resistances. I'll allow a +1 for force via rituals. Now, as you stated, rogue, that means no ranger favored enemies or dwarven, but I will all +2 damage via a favored racial weapon enhancement. Flanking can not be added in that is situational. Can not include bard songs, any form of weapon specialization (you are not a fighter), and... well... you are not left with much.

2+5+1+2 so far... 10. That leaves you with +32 from str alone, meaning you'd need a 74 str. Right.

Deadz
03-16-2009, 08:35 AM
+42 huh? Lets just have a look at this.

Max min weapon damage is 2. (assuming a 2 die weapon). +5 for the best enhancement. You can not count any elemental effect at all due to possible resistances. I'll allow a +1 for force via rituals. Now, as you stated, rogue, that means no ranger favored enemies or dwarven, but I will all +2 damage via a favored racial weapon enhancement. Flanking can not be added in that is situational. Can not include bard songs, any form of weapon specialization (you are not a fighter), and... well... you are not left with much.

2+5+1+2 so far... 10. That leaves you with +32 from str alone, meaning you'd need a 74 str. Right. Hi, my strength is 128!

Thrudh
03-16-2009, 08:43 AM
This is due to group size. If we had a limit of 4 players builds that do more than 1 thing all kinda well would be good to have. With 12 people in raids you want people who can do what they do the best of anyone. Not someone who can do alittle of all except maybe as filler once you have what you need already.

This is the crux of the matter... when the end-game wasn't all about raids (mod 4 - Gianthold), my bard/rogue was an awesome combo, and well received...

Now where most end-game people spend all their time doing nothing but 12 man raids, they want min/max characters... Plenty of a room for a pure bard and a pure rogue in a 12 man raid...

I'm hoping to see more 6-man quests in the next Mod that get run often (not just once to flag)

Tomas_Laren
03-16-2009, 08:47 AM
He might have put power attack on his rogue or is using a 2h weapon :eek:

Missing_Minds
03-16-2009, 09:19 AM
He might have put power attack on his rogue or is using a 2h weapon :eek:

Emm.. power attack with a two hander... that could possible do it.

2+5+1+2 so far... 10. That leaves you with +32 from str alone, meaning you'd need a 74 str. Right.

------------
so 32... - 10 from power attack with a two hander, so that leaves you at +22... so now you'd need a 54 str.

Odd.. I could have sworn you also doubled the strength damage with a 2 hander with power attack, not just the subtracted value to hit.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack

Lorien_the_First_One
03-16-2009, 09:38 AM
Hey wrong thread get back to that other one *kicks back to the shroud thread*

Seriously though I never said rouges can't be DPS... I just said they weren't well suited to DPS anything with over 300 HP... ok 301-350 HP

So you are showing the same predjudice you accuse others of, got it.

Aspenor
03-16-2009, 09:41 AM
Hey wrong thread get back to that other one *kicks back to the shroud thread*

Seriously though I never said rouges can't be DPS... I just said they weren't well suited to DPS anything with over 300 HP... ok 301-350 HP

this makes about as much sense as sticking your hand into a hole in the wall in a dungeon

Show_me_the_Platinum
03-16-2009, 10:09 AM
So you are showing the same predjudice you accuse others of, got it.

hey I'm not showing predjudice... I know him well from another thread


this makes about as much sense as sticking your hand into a hole in the wall in a dungeon

Ever play true dungeon at Gen Con? If I didn't stick my hand in a hole in the wall the party couldn't have moved on in the dungeon without being forced through.

But seriously, this isn't about breaking standard builds. It is about people going "Oh a cleric good we need someone who heals." then getting a battle cleric... it's about breaking stereotypes, which a lot of people are doing to me thinking I'm just here to upset people. This isn't about name calling either. I was joking around in that post.

Aspenor
03-16-2009, 10:11 AM
hey I'm not showing predjudice... I know him well from another thread



Ever play true dungeon at Gen Con? If I didn't stick my hand in a hole in the wall the party couldn't have moved on in the dungeon without being forced through.

But seriously, this isn't about breaking standard builds. It is about people going "Oh a cleric good we need someone who heals." then getting a battle cleric... it's about breaking stereotypes, which a lot of people are doing to me thinking I'm just here to upset people. This isn't about name calling either. I was joking around in that post.

Not sure why you'd be dumb enough to stick YOUR hand in the hole. That's what mage hand is for.

rezo
03-16-2009, 10:45 AM
I think we need a group hug, all gather for hugs and buffs. lol

P.S........ I like Cookies.

Show_me_the_Platinum
03-16-2009, 03:25 PM
Not sure why you'd be dumb enough to stick YOUR hand in the hole. That's what mage hand is for.

Simple... the room was locked and the only thing in the room was a hole in the wall... and I went second :)

Deadz
03-16-2009, 03:29 PM
Simple... the room was locked and the only thing in the room was a hole in the wall... and I went second :)

*insert bad joke about putting "WHAT?!?!" into the wall and going second here*

Aspenor
03-16-2009, 03:32 PM
Simple... the room was locked and the only thing in the room was a hole in the wall... and I went second :)

That's *still* what mage hand is for. Hand of the Mage, it's about 1000gp. Any party without one is begging for pain.:)

Gunga
03-16-2009, 03:42 PM
It's just you.

Show_me_the_Platinum
03-17-2009, 02:36 PM
Mage hand doesn't let you see or feel what is in the hole... plus after putting your hand in the hole (there were a total of 4 holes) you got a magic symbol put on your hand to help unlock the door.