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dragonoffrost
03-06-2009, 02:44 PM
I really like this game. With the latest updates on Capstones and PrE's I have to say the devs missed the boat on two rules from PnP that should have been included in this game from Day 1.

First is the Multiclassing restrictions from PnP. The relaxing of said rules are the reason we see so many splash builds made. Some wouldn't care about the xp penalties since XP is easy to get in DDO but others would shy away from creatings a build that takes a xp hit for skirting a rule.

The second is rangers being able to focus in both Ranged and Melee combat at the same time. In pen and paper you made a choice whether you were a ranged combat ranger or a twf melee ranger. Without this rule rangers are overpowered in DDO. Of course with this rule ranged combat still would be mostly ignored due to rate of fire issues.

croger1520033
03-06-2009, 02:51 PM
I really like this game. With the latest updates on Capstones and PrE's I have to say the devs missed the boat on two rules from PnP that should have been included in this game from Day 1.

First is the Multiclassing restrictions from PnP. The relaxing of said rules are the reason we see so many splash builds made. Some wouldn't care about the xp penalties since XP is easy to get in DDO but others would shy away from creatings a build that takes a xp hit for skirting a rule.

The second is rangers being able to focus in both Ranged and Melee combat at the same time. In pen and paper you made a choice whether you were a ranged combat ranger or a twf melee ranger. Without this rule rangers are overpowered in DDO. Of course with this rule ranged combat still would be mostly ignored due to rate of fire issues.

I don't think you have grasped rangers very well.

1. How many times do you see that ranger in the group whip out a bow and go to town??

2. The rate of fire of ranged is so slow it in no way overpowers rangers.

3. Most do choose whether or not they are ranged or melee, the fact is just about everyone in this game carries some type of ranged weapon, it doesn't mean they all run around shooting it all the time.

My ranger uses her bow I think maybe 1 or twice in the shroud. First is part 3 for all of 20 secs. Second, is part 4 when I jump out to avoid the blades. Other than that Ranged combat for a tempest ranger is useless.

So to recap a tempest ranger, one who chose melee as his path rarely uses a bow. I am sure there are many ranged rangers out there who rarely use a sword, just cause you think something makes another gimped or overpowered doesn't make it a fact.

Lithic
03-06-2009, 02:55 PM
I disagree. XP penalties are irrelevant for the vast majority of people. Even a 40% cut from a X/1/1 wouldn't slow these builds down.

The only real mistakes IMO were:

1) Loot-flation. Shroud items are the most glaring, but all in all everything should be 50x rarer. As my own friends have noticed, chests are boring and useless, and the only time we got excited about them agian was for gold coins in the festival, for the minute chance of a +4 tome. Right now even +2 tomes are meh, and there are less than 5 random generated items that are worth looting chests for (+X w/p rapier, +X w/p ss, high + banisher rapiers, +2 tomes, and umm... maybe +8 armour bracers).

Too late to fix this now, though if there is ever a DDO2 I would suggest utter poverty from chests.

2) Enhancements. WAY overpowered. Some glaring examples are crit rage 2, and tempest 1. I still can't belive they didnt nerf tempest 1, and are instead making similar mistakes in the form of 10% fighter alacrity (main reason is there shouldnt be such a difference from lvl 19 to 20), and paladin zeal. If it wasnt for loot-flation and enhancments gone amuck, paladins and fighters wouldnt need 10% speed increases to be worthwhile. Now the ONLY class that cannot have +10% speed increase is rogues. Their one ability in combat is to be utterly devastating in sneak attacks, but as of now they are barely adequate on 0% fort monsters, and may as well be deleted every time a dev utters the words "50% or better fortification", "red named construct", or "red/purple named undead".

Again, too late to fix this. The devs had a **** good chance during the enhancemnet overhaul, too bad they went the wrong direction.

Angelus_dead
03-06-2009, 02:59 PM
1) Loot-flation. Shroud items are the most glaring, but all in all everything should be 50x rarer.
The biggest problem with DDO's loot isn't the rate at which stuff drops from quests, but the fact that other characters can hand it to you.

Borror0
03-06-2009, 03:38 PM
1) Loot-flation. Shroud items are the most glaring, but all in all everything should be 50x rarer.
Rarity is not the problem. It's the fact that you can actually have those that is the problem.

Nevthial
03-06-2009, 04:19 PM
Rarity is not the problem. It's the fact that you can actually have those that is the problem.

QFT ~ should be rare , bound , and exclusive

Monty Haul Loot is at the root !

Yurtrus
03-06-2009, 04:31 PM
I think the biggest problem with DDO is whiners like you all.. This is over powered ( girly voice ) and this should be this way and that should be that way and I don't like that he has one and I don't. Do us all a favor and STHUp and play the game the way it is..

**** cry babies only make things worse by opening up your mouths.

Laith
03-06-2009, 04:39 PM
I think the biggest problem with DDO is whiners like you all.. This is over powered ( girly voice ) and this should be this way and that should be that way and I don't like that he has one and I don't. Do us all a favor and STHUp and play the game the way it is..

**** cry babies only make things worse by opening up your mouths.meanwhile, i hope you enjoy at least a few of the changes that have come in direct response to player criticism.

Casters and clerics, for instance, used to get less SP at high levels than it used to take to cast a single one of their new spells. Boy, was that awesome!

parvo
03-06-2009, 04:56 PM
The biggest design flaw in DDO is more MMO related than PnP. Cheap magic commodities of all sorts, especially healing. The second is easy XP is way too easy.

Uska
03-06-2009, 05:31 PM
The biggest problem with DDO's loot isn't the rate at which stuff drops from quests, but the fact that other characters can hand it to you.

all loot binding would be a huge flaw and ruin the feel of imersion

Trillea
03-06-2009, 05:51 PM
But there are 2 ways that DDO has completely screwed up from day 1.

The first one is giving a second attack at base attack 1. You are not supposed to have a second attack until you have reached base attack 6.

The second thing they screwed up on (and this is the BIG one) is the way the extra attacks work - they should not get +5 to hit for each extra attack but *gasp* -5! Now I see how this would be death for an action-based game but is the main reason that mobs in DDO have way-too-inflated ACs and HPs. You are *NOT SUPPOSED* to be able to hit with EVERY SINGLE SWING! If they had never implemented this craziness from the start, then the game would have been more balanced across the classes.

As it is since we are getting overly-inflated attack bonuses the MOBs are getting even more inflated ACs and HPs because they are all rolling to not roll a 1 in most situations. Since the melees are hitting on 19 out of 20 swings the HPs of the mobs have to be astronomical to make boss fights last more than a minute or so.

This is causing spellcasters such as wizards and sorcerers lament because as they gain levels they fall farther and farther behind the DPS curve. That is why wounding and puncturing is so popular now, it makes NO SENSE to DPS a mob down any time after about Gianthold. It is way too late to fix it now but this is the root problem of many of the symptoms we are dealing with now.

Just my 2cp, and I must repeat, I still love DDO and am utterly addicted to it.

ev77
03-15-2009, 02:46 PM
But there are 2 ways that DDO has completely screwed up from day 1.

The first one is giving a second attack at base attack 1. You are not supposed to have a second attack until you have reached base attack 6.

The second thing they screwed up on (and this is the BIG one) is the way the extra attacks work - they should not get +5 to hit for each extra attack but *gasp* -5! Now I see how this would be death for an action-based game but is the main reason that mobs in DDO have way-too-inflated ACs and HPs. You are *NOT SUPPOSED* to be able to hit with EVERY SINGLE SWING! If they had never implemented this craziness from the start, then the game would have been more balanced across the classes.

As it is since we are getting overly-inflated attack bonuses the MOBs are getting even more inflated ACs and HPs because they are all rolling to not roll a 1 in most situations. Since the melees are hitting on 19 out of 20 swings the HPs of the mobs have to be astronomical to make boss fights last more than a minute or so.

This is causing spellcasters such as wizards and sorcerers lament because as they gain levels they fall farther and farther behind the DPS curve. That is why wounding and puncturing is so popular now, it makes NO SENSE to DPS a mob down any time after about Gianthold. It is way too late to fix it now but this is the root problem of many of the symptoms we are dealing with now.

Just my 2cp, and I must repeat, I still love DDO and am utterly addicted to it.

OMG, I'm so happy someone shares my sentiments. I call the "second swing" the root of (almost) all evil for this game.

edit: Well minus one thing. I like the currently implemented progressive combos. But that second attack should still go away!

Aspenor
03-15-2009, 02:47 PM
OMG, I'm so happy someone shares my sentiments. I call the "second swing" the root of (almost) all evil for this game.

you can't be serious....

are you?

really?

ev77
03-15-2009, 03:07 PM
you can't be serious....

are you?

really?

Not exactly, I missed the fact they wanted regressive combos. I agree, progressive combos are the way to go!

Locke
03-18-2009, 09:12 AM
But there are 2 ways that DDO has completely screwed up from day 1.

The first one is giving a second attack at base attack 1. You are not supposed to have a second attack until you have reached base attack 6.

The second thing they screwed up on (and this is the BIG one) is the way the extra attacks work - they should not get +5 to hit for each extra attack but *gasp* -5! Now I see how this would be death for an action-based game but is the main reason that mobs in DDO have way-too-inflated ACs and HPs. You are *NOT SUPPOSED* to be able to hit with EVERY SINGLE SWING! If they had never implemented this craziness from the start, then the game would have been more balanced across the classes.

As it is since we are getting overly-inflated attack bonuses the MOBs are getting even more inflated ACs and HPs because they are all rolling to not roll a 1 in most situations. Since the melees are hitting on 19 out of 20 swings the HPs of the mobs have to be astronomical to make boss fights last more than a minute or so.

This is causing spellcasters such as wizards and sorcerers lament because as they gain levels they fall farther and farther behind the DPS curve. That is why wounding and puncturing is so popular now, it makes NO SENSE to DPS a mob down any time after about Gianthold. It is way too late to fix it now but this is the root problem of many of the symptoms we are dealing with now.

Just my 2cp, and I must repeat, I still love DDO and am utterly addicted to it.

Its more than this though.

1. As per the DMG character are suppose to have a maximum character wealth. This translates into a certain amount of gear in gold worth. In DDO we have a level based system in regard with gear. This means that the amount of gear we have is about 20x higher than possible, if every piece of gear is near our maximum level.

2. The d20 system is flawed in general. This is for pen and paper as well. If a fighter has +19 to hit over a rogue, then its possible for that fighter to hit on everything but a 1 and the rogue to never hit except on a 20. In PnP it isnt as bad since the limitation of gear keeps all classes in check, but in DDO the fighter types stack to hit.

3. In PnP there is DM controlled fighting. If the magic users get out of had, the DM can always throw in a golem fight as in PnP they are completely immune to magical effects. If a finesse fighter is too powerful, the some undead can be thrown in. In DDO you can have enough gear that you can respect your build at a moment's notice so that your character is never really at a disadvantage.

4. The mana based spell system is pretty broken. Vancian style magic would translate alot better. As you adventure you become less and less able. In DDO as you adventure you might lose mana but your options are always the same. While a lot of people dont like the memory based mechanic, it is EXTREMELY effective in tempering the party.

5. The game is a little too fast. In PnP a 6th level fighter can take 2 swings and move 20 ft in heavy armor. So that means in 6 seconds he can move 40ft or move 20 and use 1.5 seconds for each swing. Same for the mobs. Slowing things down makes for better and more strategic play especially when you take in consideration the burn and forget magic.

6. Friendly fire is off... and red named mobs are immune to mane enchantment spells and gear the mobs have don't automatically drop. If they are using it the players should be able to get it.

7. So in all gameplay style plays really close to a console hack, and other than how the stats are set up, the balanced mechanics have been removed. This is an action game not a strategic game like PnP. Its a new type of thing not to be mixed up with DnD.

Auran82
03-18-2009, 09:16 AM
all loot binding would be a huge flaw and ruin the feel of imersion

There should be many many more bind on equip items.

Angelus_dead
03-18-2009, 11:11 AM
all loot binding would be a huge flaw and ruin the feel of imersion
Incorrect. It would actually fix an immersion-killing flaw that currently exists.

In D&D (or any adventure game), the players should feel like they're the heros- the most powerful and important force of good for whatever situation they're in. The storyline should be such so that it seems that if you don't win the quest, bad things will happen to everyone around.

In most RPGs (either classic PnP games, or single-player computer games) that situation is enforced by the game master by preventing the availability of any more-powerful guys on your side. Either you're the only tough good-guy around, or at least the others have some duty that they just can't leave (guarding the town gate, instead of tracking the monster to its cave).

But in an MMORPG that can't be exactly done. Unless you're at the maximum allowed level, or you were in the first wave of characters built on the server, then there will always be someone better than you hanging around. Realistically, there'd be no reason for the NPC questgivers to ask for your help when someone else can solve the problem faster and with less risk for his own safety. You're not really blazing your own trail of adventure- you're grinding a well-worn path through repeatable dungeons that have already been beaten thousands or millions of times.

For the game to work well, players must be able to ignore those facts and pretend that significantly higher-level player characters simply don't exist in the area. That's why there is an XP penalty for mismatched levels in a party: to discourage interaction between characters of disparate level. Ideally, we want each PC to feel like he is the first hero to beat each quest story.

However, hand-me-down loot twinking violates that impression. The most effective way for a character of level 1-15 to acquire gear isn't to ransack monsters or be rewarded by NPCs; it's for an older PC to pass over something he doesn't need much anymore.

The fact that higher-level alts is the most effective way to get gear breaks the desired immersion.
The fact that quests are almost incomparably easier if a higher-level alt is feeding you gear and expendables breaks the desired immersion.

Do you know what Tempest Spine was like in the first 50 days after DDO's release? There were maybe 5 Blackguards in the whole place, which was enough because level 10 players didn't generally even have +5 weapons. Iron Golems were a tough monster, because on average less than 1 player would have adamantine. And the Marut was practically a caster-only fight, because for a warrior to have an anarchic weapon was almost unheard of. But as time went by, players got more and more of that kind of gear, and it would be handed over to new alts before they run quests that need it. For a different kind of an example, just look at the listed minimum level of magic items, and compare that against the chance that a character can actually obtain such items at that level (without first hitting enough XP to move up).

The gameplay experience and challenge level of those quests was totally different depending on whether or not it was a "mature" server whose players have built up a reservoir of handy items to share with others. That heavy entanglement between the perceptions of different players is a serious flaw in game design.

A better system would be to apply something like "bind-to-party" loot mechanics, so that a level 7 rogue can't be wielding a +1 Holy Rapier against Flesh Renders unless he either got it as a quest reward, looted it personally, or was in the party when someone did loot it.

Uska
03-18-2009, 11:14 AM
There should be many many more bind on equip items.

disagree would maybe good for a balance thing but horrible for a RP thing

Uska
03-18-2009, 11:16 AM
Incorrect. It would actually fix an immersion-killing flaw that currently exists.

In D&D (or any adventure game), the players should feel like they're the heros- the most powerful and important force of good for whatever situation they're in. The storyline should be such so that it seems that if you don't win the quest, bad things will happen to everyone around.

In most RPGs (either classic PnP games, or single-player computer games) that situation is enforced by the game master by preventing the availability of any more-powerful guys on your side. Either you're the only tough good-guy around, or at least the others have some duty that they just can't leave (guarding the town gate, instead of tracking the monster to its cave).

But in an MMORPG that can't be exactly done. Unless you're at the maximum allowed level, or you were in the first wave of characters built on the server, then there will always be someone better than you hanging around. Realistically, there'd be no reason for the NPC questgivers to ask for your help when someone else can solve the problem faster and with less risk for his own safety. You're not really blazing your own trail of adventure- you're grinding a well-worn path through repeatable dungeons that have already been beaten thousands or millions of times.

For the game to work well, players must be able to ignore those facts and pretend that significantly higher-level player characters simply don't exist in the area. That's why there is an XP penalty for mismatched levels in a party: to discourage interaction between characters of disparate level. Ideally, we want each PC to feel like he is the first hero to beat each quest story.

However, hand-me-down loot twinking violates that impression. The most effective way for a character of level 1-15 to acquire gear isn't to ransack monsters or be rewarded by NPCs; it's for an older PC to pass over something he doesn't need much anymore.

The fact that higher-level alts is the most effective way to get gear breaks the desired immersion.
The fact that quests are almost incomparably easier if a higher-level alt is feeding you gear and expendables breaks the desired immersion.

Do you know what Tempest Spine was like in the first 50 days after DDO's release? There were maybe 5 Blackguards in the whole place, which was enough because level 10 players didn't generally even have +5 weapons. Iron Golems were a tough monster, because on average less than 1 player would have adamantine. And the Marut was practically a caster-only fight, because for a warrior to have an anarchic weapon was almost unheard of. But as time went by, players got more and more of that kind of gear, and it would be handed over to new alts before they run quests that need it. For a different kind of an example, just look at the listed minimum level of magic items, and compare that against the chance that a character can actually obtain such items at that level (without first hitting enough XP to move up).

The gameplay experience and challenge level of those quests was totally different depending on whether or not it was a "mature" server whose players have built up a reservoir of handy items to share with others. That heavy entanglement between the perceptions of different players is a serious flaw in game design.

A better system would be to apply something like "bind-to-party" loot mechanics, so that a level 7 rogue can't be wielding a +1 Holy Rapier against Flesh Renders unless he either got it as a quest reward, looted it personally, or was in the party when someone did loot it.

no binding wouldnt fix ddo its too late to fix what is wrong with the loot system they should have made all magic items much more rare then they are masterwork items should have meant something. Binding is to video gameish to me and yeah I know its a video game but its still and rpg to me first.

Angelus_dead
03-18-2009, 11:21 AM
Binding is to video gameish to me and yeah I know its a video game but its still and rpg to me first.
No.

I already explained it, but I'll briefly re-emphasize:

In traditional D&D, there are no player characters of 10 levels above you. Your party is all there is. Nobody will hand you a +4 Scimitar of Giant-bane just when you need it, because there's nobody who can do that. If you'd like to test this yourself, join a D&D game at level 1 and tell the DM you're going to mail over some +5 armor and CSW wands from a level 10 character sheet you got in a different campaign.

But in an MMO RPG, it's unavoidable that there will be characters of much higher level around. It would interfere too much if they joined the same party as you, so there are rules to punish that. But it also interferes when they provide items to you. DDO has some rules to restrict that (minimum-level items), but not enough.

Deathseeker
03-18-2009, 11:30 AM
My 2cp...

Binding
While I tend to agree binding would help the loot inflation, I dont agree that it would "fix" the game. Many players (including myself) get a ton of enjoyment out of trading/selling/buying/passing loot, and removing that aspect would substantially change the way we choose to enjoy the game.

I totally agree loot-flation is bad though, just dont agree with binding as a solution. Look at Sorjak...everything there is bound, and chest trading is irrelevant, and no one seems to like that approach.

Making things much more rare, and just less loot overall, would be a better approach IMO.

Attack Progression
Without a lot of deep thought yet, I also tend to agree that the bonus to-hit on the attack progression is a bad thing, and I also wonder what the game would be like if it were to be a penalty instead of a bonus.

- Would make other to-hit bonuses MUCH more relevant in terms of loot, builds, etc.
- Would allow for the decrease of mob HP and thus make DPS more relevant vs stat damage.
- If ranged combat did not have any regression, it would be a way to bring ranged combat
more in line as well.
- Would make several feats much more important (weapon focus specifically, OTWF, etc) which would favor those classes with excess feats (ie monks and fighters)

Im not ready to go to the mat over this one yet, just my initial thoughts on it....

ahpook
03-18-2009, 11:48 AM
My 2cp...

Binding
While I tend to agree binding would help the loot inflation, I dont agree that it would "fix" the game. Many players (including myself) get a ton of enjoyment out of trading/selling/buying/passing loot, and removing that aspect would substantially change the way we choose to enjoy the game.

I totally agree loot-flation is bad though, just dont agree with binding as a solution. Look at Sorjak...everything there is bound, and chest trading is irrelevant, and no one seems to like that approach.

Making things much more rare, and just less loot overall, would be a better approach IMO.

Rareness is not sufficient. That simply adds to the grind. Bloodstones are rare but almost everyone who wants one ran the desert until they found one or could afford one.

If you are against binding the next best option is to raise the min levels on items without affecting what drops from the loot tables. So when you loot a level 6 chest you can get a min level 6 item and twinking is not the only option for optimal gear. The current model of min level items being 3 levels below the quest is a recipe for problems as twinking is always superior.




Attack Progression
Without a lot of deep thought yet, I also tend to agree that the bonus to-hit on the attack progression is a bad thing, and I also wonder what the game would be like if it were to be a penalty instead of a bonus.

- Would make other to-hit bonuses MUCH more relevant in terms of loot, builds, etc.
- Would allow for the decrease of mob HP and thus make DPS more relevant vs stat damage.
- If ranged combat did not have any regression, it would be a way to bring ranged combat
more in line as well.
- Would make several feats much more important (weapon focus specifically, OTWF, etc) which would favor those classes with excess feats (ie monks and fighters)

Im not ready to go to the mat over this one yet, just my initial thoughts on it....

I am read to go to the mat. Regression is required as it is used to balance so much of the combat between classes and styles of fighting. The current model of +5/+10 is very problematic for the reasons that have been stated by others. They would need a way to make it so that you cannot break the regression chain to avoid the penalties but that should be doable by factoring a timer into the attack rolls.

Deathseeker
03-18-2009, 12:06 PM
Rareness is not sufficient. That simply adds to the grind. Bloodstones are rare but almost everyone who wants one ran the desert until they found one or could afford one.


To me, Bloodstones are NOT rare. The fact that you can go ransack the chest and after a few weeks likely have one means it just isnt that rare. To me a WoP rapier is rare. A +1 Holy Burst Silver Rapier of Greater Evil Outsider Bane is rare. +8 Armor bracers are rare (well, today anyways). These are rare because they drop incredibly infrequently AND you cannot pinpoint one strategy to pull them. They aren't grindable because you can't grind in one spot to get it.

My point is, if the loot is in one place, you can hit it over and over until you get one, then it isnt rare enough and leads to loot inflation.

I think these super rare items make the game much more fun. The excitement of pulling something that rare is unmatched in the game for many. The feeling of being uber with one is great, and trading one for a small fortune is fun.

Buying some large scales, and crafting a Min II that surpasses almost all other weapons in the game, is no where near as fun IMO.

I miss the lvl cap 10 days when a vorpal got pulled and the whole server knew about it. We need that type of excitement today, not the expected gear path that almost every toon progresses down these days.

To me its fine if this loot is unbound, in fact is better, because pulling super rare loot on a toon that can't use it sucks. But pulling super rare loot on a toon that can trade it for other super rare is a blast.

The key is "rare", not "bound".

Again, just IMO.

Borror0
03-18-2009, 12:06 PM
If you are against binding the next best option is to raise the min levels on items without affecting what drops from the loot tables. So when you loot a level 6 chest you can get a min level 6 item and twinking is not the only option for optimal gear. The current model of min level items being 3 levels below the quest is a recipe for problems as twinking is always superior.
Another way is what Turbine did with Korthos: static loot to reduce the gap between twinks and non-twinks.

bobbryan2
03-18-2009, 12:16 PM
So let me get this right.

Chests aren't exciting, because there's virtually a 0% chance of pulling something nice. But you want to make the loot even more rare so there's an even less chance of pulling something nice.

Great fix there.

ahpook
03-18-2009, 12:17 PM
Another way is what Turbine did with Korthos: static loot to reduce the gap between twinks and non-twinks.

That only helps for a few levels and is loot-flation. But it does provide a similar result by essentially dropping gear that you can use at level appropriate quest except it does it by putting the better gear into the game sooner. I am not big fan of that (as you are not a big fan of correcting chattering ring by adding more dodge items) but the reality is that it is probably too late to change the loot problem without a full reset. The korthos model is the only option open to them.

A change to use an attack regression however could still be implemented. Might need a respec in place for that one though :)

Mr_Ed7
03-18-2009, 12:30 PM
Perhaps overkill, but no half-orcs and no evil alignment sticks in my craw as something missing.

A more realistic environment would be nice, where you could jump and climb on everything.

I agree with previous posts that the combat does seem to excel quickly.

Loot is loot to me, I could care less...it is what it is.

I think stricter RACE RESTRICTIONS would be good and could perhaps balance the game more.

Also make it illegal to WHINE about what you see as WHINERS!
.

Deathseeker
03-18-2009, 12:36 PM
So let me get this right.

Chests aren't exciting, because there's virtually a 0% chance of pulling something nice. But you want to make the loot even more rare so there's an even less chance of pulling something nice.

Great fix there.

You're missing the point. The reason there is virtually a 0% chance is not because the good stuff is so rare, its because the good stuff does not exist in the chests. Almost everything worthwhile is now a result of a raid or raid crafting. Thus, there's nothing left in a chest worth pulling that is extremely exciting.

Im just not a fan of a path that says...

First, Buy some tapestries for your Minos Helm
Then, grind the bloodstone chest for a bloodstone
Then, grind Titan 20 times to get your chattering ring
Then, go grind the Skelly chest to get Icy Raiments
Then, go grind shroud to get your Min II
Then, go grind Vision to get your goggles

The point is that chests suck today not because the good loot is all too rare. Its that the good loot doesnt even exist in that chest to begin with....

Give more good random loot options in the chest, make them extremely rare, and cut back on all the named loot that is way overpowered compared to chest loot and leads to repetitive paths during character development.

That lets the player choose their "grind". If I like Monestary, I can grind that. If you like Devil's or Rainbow, knock yourself out. A fan of Coalesence? Go for it (though you may want to seek help if you're a fan of Coalesence). Random loot provides more flexability in your end game grind and extends what is always somewhat limited volume of content. Otherwise, its the same raids, over, and over, and over, and over...

sephiroth1084
03-18-2009, 12:38 PM
On the loot issue...I think part of the problem is the rate at which stuff comes to us from chests and end rewards--there really isn't any point in the game where someone should be using a plain weapon or armor, or even masterwork versions. Heck, you can skip right over +1 stuff!

Another part, and I think this is HUGE, is the Auction House. If Turbine were to avoid putting this in the game (in a future DDO2?), and instead made the brokers a little more prominent, I think we'd be in better shape, especially if this were coupled with less crazy gear dropping and the loot tables being spread out a little more. There isn't anything inherently wrong with players sharing, after all that is a very PnP thing, but the ease with which we do so is the real issue.

And yeah, Shroud items are a big part of the problem as well.

Borror0
03-18-2009, 12:39 PM
Making things much more rare, and just less loot overall, would be a better approach IMO.
Not a good solution. Too rare is multiple times worse.

While there nothing bad is really rare loot, too few good loot is horrible. It makes looting unexciting. While looting a WoP rapier must be an incredible feeling, the current problem is that looting any chest without named loot in it is ridiculously underwhelming. This would only make it the problem worse.

sephiroth1084
03-18-2009, 12:47 PM
I think everything on the loot tables should be pushed back a little bit: (look at the Magic Item Compendium's item level tables):

Masterwork weapons to level 2.
+1s to level 3, then each + should be 3 levels higher, with a few, very rare items that exist at lower levels.
Stat items shouldn't start until lvl 4, with +1, and then they should be raised by 1 every 3 levels, with the same caveat as above perhaps.

Borror0
03-18-2009, 12:54 PM
I think everything on the loot tables should have been pushed back a little bit (closer to the Magic Item Compendium's item level tables) but sadly that can't happen. Turbine needs to find solutions to the problems this creates, quickly.
I think you mean this.

Emili
03-18-2009, 12:57 PM
Not a good solution. Too rare is multiple times worse.

While there nothing bad is really rare loot, too few good loot is horrible. It makes looting unexciting. While looting a WoP rapier must be an incredible feeling, the current problem is that looting any chest without named loot in it is ridiculously underwhelming. This would only make it the problem worse.


I cannot see how they can possibly fix this without ticking many subscribers off. I agree ... the largest thing broken is the loot, however to retract what people have and realign the mob, characters and quest dynamics would be a tremedous under-taking... redesigning the whole game. What is funny is people toss the wop up as an example... DnD has no wop and a rapier of puncturing is x3/day, thus while impressive, is not as functional in game play as say a "wounding sword" or even near a vorpal.

Currently, DDO the loot system accounts for more easily 1/2 of a characters effectiveness... so it's really not so much the base of the characters build which is it's strength but the boost it gets from the items. Thus the gear is an extreme portion of the build... DnD pnp it is more the character's stats, feats, and player's decision on how to use them coupled with the die roll which determines the outcomes. In DDO we have a "95% hits", "95% saves", "95% cast" characters all due to the loot.

sephiroth1084
03-18-2009, 12:59 PM
I think you mean this.

Haha. Well, not quite. I don't think that there is any solution for the current game. It's gone on too long and too far, but in the event that there is a DDO 2, or the like, this should be addressed, though I imagine DDO 2 will be based off that drivel called 4E.

Angelus_dead
03-18-2009, 01:07 PM
On the loot issue...I think part of the problem is the rate at which stuff comes to us from chests and end rewards--there really isn't any point in the game where someone should be using a plain weapon or armor, or even masterwork versions. Heck, you can skip right over +1 stuff!
Ok, history lesson.

Shortly after the DDO live release, my level 1 guy was happy to upgrade from shortsword to rapier, and in a few days happy to go to masterwork rapier (possibly with a side-trip to MW shortsword). My next character soloed WW at L2 with a non-magic longsword and banded mail.

However, 3-4 months later I make a new level 1 character, and what do I see in lowbie parties? Magic items everywhere. Sickle of Sypheros was a popular one, but there was also some random loot sent around, and even probably some names (Dryden Mace or Star of Irian). A raw L2 fighter could find himself out-DPSed by the weapon attacks of an L1 sorcerer who had the right items.

What had happened was that the existence of hand-me-down items had split the low-level gameplay into two separate sections. The Haves who had been gifted items "from above" had power and survivability far above the untwinked Have Nots, even though the game considered them the same in terms of XP awards.

That was a problem, and the introduction of those new reward items that you complained about was actually a partial fix. It's somewhat true that they removed the challenge and excitement of a low-level character hunting for loot on his own; but that kind of gameplay had already been essentially killed. Instead, the beneficial effect of those additions was to equalize power between the twinked and untwinked, so that encounters could threaten them both equally, instead of new subscribers being stuck far far behind the mechanical power of experienced players.

sephiroth1084
03-18-2009, 01:15 PM
Ok, history lesson.

Shortly after the DDO live release, my level 1 guy was happy to upgrade from shortsword to rapier, and in a few days happy to go to masterwork rapier (possibly with a side-trip to MW shortsword). My next character soloed WW at L2 with a non-magic longsword and banded mail.

However, 3-4 months later I make a new level 1 character, and what do I see in lowbie parties? Magic items everywhere. Sickle of Sypheros was a popular one, but there was also some random loot sent around, and even probably some names (Dryden Mace or Star of Irian). A raw L2 fighter could find himself out-DPSed by the weapon attacks of an L1 sorcerer who had the right items.

What had happened was that the existence of hand-me-down items had split the low-level gameplay into two separate sections. The Haves who had been gifted items "from above" had power and survivability far above the untwinked Have Nots, even though the game considered them the same in terms of XP awards.

That was a problem, and the introduction of those new reward items that you complained about was actually a partial fix. It's somewhat true that they removed the challenge and excitement of a low-level character hunting for loot on his own; but that kind of gameplay had already been essentially killed. Instead, the beneficial effect of those additions was to equalize power between the twinked and untwinked, so that encounters could threaten them both equally, instead of new subscribers being stuck far far behind the mechanical power of experienced players.

I had a similar experience, though it feels like a long time ago (though a year isn't that long). Honestly, those uber weapons shouldn't have been made available to lvl 1 or 2 players to begin with. It's hard to balance against twinking, but raising the ML of items like that would help a little, though it wouldn't be a total fix, because the same issue would occur later, but the difference would be smaller, particularly when regarding your sorc vs. real melee example, because the differences between the classes would be greater.

~Trilou
03-18-2009, 01:28 PM
It cracks me up when everyone talks about the "rules" of PnP... there are no set rules... only guide lines that changed from DM to DM... just consider Turbine an odd DM.

Mr_Ed7
03-18-2009, 10:38 PM
It cracks me up when everyone talks about the "rules" of PnP... there are no set rules... only guide lines that changed from DM to DM... just consider Turbine an odd DM.

...and the rules change with each issue of the Players Handbook & Dungeon Master's Guide!

DDO is just another interpretation...its ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN DAY on DDO!