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gfunk
03-05-2009, 04:19 PM
<WARNING. this thread contains math>

This thread is intended as a reference to further explore the dps potential of various builds"

-see post #2 for charts, and updated calculation details (moving and updating from various posts later in thread, several of which are out of date)
-updated to post mod 7 tier III effects (some calc details in ref posts include older weapon descriptions)
-most builds include: madstone, bloodstone, tharnes, +4 tomes*, mineral II weapons (damaging 3rd tiers).
-standard buffs include: prayer (n/a on builds with divine favor), inspire courage (currently at +7 throughout this thread, at some point I'll have to update to +9), and haste.

-most posted calculations include 100% sneak attack damage. If you wish to get an idea of what the changes are with less sneak attack damage, you can look at the DPS vs fortification in post #2 (i.e. 50% fort also means that only 50% of your sneak attack gets through). If you have a build that rely's heavily on sneak attack for your DPS, you can improve your damage greatly (vs. trash) by wielding radience weapons which blind your foe and give you 100% sneak attack. High dps sneak attack builds also need agro mitigation like subtle backstabbing. treason or tharnes wrath.

-my goal is not to "prove anything" about which build is better or worse in this thread. I hope this becomes a thread for objective analysis of the capability of the damage potential of different classes. I hope to present the data in an unbiased manner. I don't believe that I have any sort of agenda because I actually don't build any of the highest DPS characters. I personally get more enjoyment out of making the best out of what I have (I keep the same characters around and just try and re-work them from time to time).

-I would like to include information about THF and Ranged combat at some point, however there are a few details that need to be worked out first (wrt glancing blow damage, procs, crit effects and ranged attack rate)

Other useful links:

cforces attack speed index: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819 (resource for attack speeds)
ddo wiki attack progression page: http://ddowiki.com/page/Combo_chain (resource for attack chains and BAB's)
ddo wiki greensteel weapon base damage: http://ddowiki.com/page/Green_Steel_Weapons
rons character planner: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=87799 (many of the feats and enhancements are more accurate/up to date then the ddo compendium!)


DPS … (dps considering unbroken full attack progression)
179.1 … elf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ longswords , wo/ divine might , itwf ,
188.7 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ kamas , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
190.2 … elf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ rapiers , wo/ divine might , itwf ,
195.1 … dwarf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ dwarven axes , w/ divine might , itwf ,
196.4 … elf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ longswords , w/ divine might , itwf ,
197.4 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ khopeshes , wo/ divine might , itwf ,
201.2 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ handaxes , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
205.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ daggers , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
208.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ longsword/handaxe , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
208.9 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 , w/ kamas , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
209.0 … elf , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ rapiers , w/ divine might , itwf ,
212.5 … dwarf , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ dwarven axes , w/ divine might , itwf ,
213.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ longswords , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
217.7 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ khopeshes , w/ divine might , itwf ,
226.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ rapiers , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
227.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ handaxes , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
227.4 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ daggers , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
230.4 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ longsword/handaxe , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
235.5 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ longswords , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
249.1 … halfling , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ khopeshes , without sneak attack ,
250.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ rapiers , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
275.1 … warforged , rogue 20, assassin III w/ khopeshes , without sneak attack ,
275.7 … halfling , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
296.8 … elf , ranger 20, tempest III , w/ rapiers , vs. non-favored ,
269.9 … dwarf , rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , acrobat II , tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. non-favored ,
306.4 … halfling , rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , acrobat II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. non-favored ,
307.8 … dwarf , fighter 20, defender III , w/ dwarven axes ,
324.7 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 rogue 1, tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. non favored ,
333.1 … dwarf , fighter 20, defender III, w/ dwarven axes , haste boosted 20% , http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174962
344.7 … warforged , ranger 20/ , tempest I, w/ khopeshes , vs. non-favored ,
350.9… warforged , barbarian 20, crit rage II , w/ heavy picks ,
350.8 .....warforged, Barbarian 14, Fighter II, crit rage II, kensai I, w / heavy picks
353.0 … warforged , barbarian 20, crit rage II , w/ khopeshes ,
357.5 … warforged , Palidan 20, knight of the Chalice III , w/ khopeshes , vs. non-evil outsiders , with zeal (w/o smite) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590 *
364.5 … warforged , paladin 14 / ranger 6, knight of the Chalice II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. non-favored ,
370.0 … elf , ranger 20 , tempest III , w/ rapiers , vs. favored , (dex)
370.2 … halfling , fighter 12 / rogue 7 / barbarian 1 , kensai II , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
371.9 … warforged , barbarian 20 , frenzy I , w/ khopeshes ,
379.6 … warforged , fighter 12 / ranger 6 / monk 2 , kensai II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. non-favored ,
380.8 … dwarf , barbarian 14 / ranger 6 , tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. favored ,
384.1 … warforged , fighter 20, kensai III , w/ khopeshes , without strength surge ,
384.7 … warforged , fighter 12 / barbarain 8, kensai II , w/ khopeshes , http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631
395.0 … halfling , fighter 20, kensai III , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
395.1 … human , fighter 20, kensai III , w/ khopeshes , with damage boost +5 ,
399.1 … warforged , fighter 20, kensai III , w/ khopeshes , with strength surge ,
403.3 … warforged , barbarian 20, frenzy II , w/ khopeshes ,
409.3 … warforged , fighter 12 / ranger 6 / monk 2 , kensai II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , (monster) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630
411.5 … dwarf , barbarian 14 / ranger 6 , tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. favored ,
418.2 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1 , tempest III , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , (exploiter)
421.2 … warforged , paladin 14 / ranger 6, knight of the Chalice II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. evil outsiders , vs. favored , with zeal
431.8 … warforged , ranger 20 , tempest III , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored ,
433.2 … warforged , barbarian 20 , frenzy III , w/ khopeshes ,
438.4 ... warforged, paladin 20, knight of the chalice, vs evil outsiders, with zeal
444.9 … human , fighter 20, w/ khopeshes , with strength surge , haste boost +30%
454.0 … warforged , rogue 20, w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
457.5 … halfling , rogue 20 , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
459.4 … dwarf , Rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1, tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. favored , with sneak attack
466.8 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1, w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +15% (exploiter) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687 *
494.9 … warforged , fighter 12 / barbarian 8, w/ khopeshes , haste boost +30% , http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631
497.8 … halfling , rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , assassin II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , vs. favored
495.8 … warforged , paladin 14 / ranger 6, tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. evil outsiders , vs. favored , zeal, smite 1 per round
508.3 … warforged , fighter 20 , w/ khopeshes , with strength surge , haste boost +30%
517.0 … halfling , fighter 20 , w/ khopeshes , with strength surge , haste boost +30%
520.6 … warforged , fighter 12 / ranger 6 / monk2 , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , haste boost +30% (monster) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630
530.4 … warforged , paladin 20, w/ khopeshes , vs. evil outsiders , zeal, smite 1 per round
544.6 … halfling , fighter 12 / rogue 7 / barbarian 1 , w/ khopeshes , without sneak attack , haste boost +30%
569.0 … dwarf , Rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , assassin II , tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +30%
568.7 … warforged , Rogue 20, w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , haste boost +30%
584.7 … halfling , Rogue 20 , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , haste boost +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2089146&postcount=54
631.6 … halfling , Rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , acrobat II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175534
643.1 … halfling , Rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , assassin II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175534

builds are indicated in green when their position in the dps chart is dependant on short-term effects (I did not include strength surge as a short term effect... yet)
builds are indicated in blue when their position in the dps chart is dependant on situational damage like backstabbing and favored enemies
builds are indicated in red when their position in the dps chart is dependant on taking damage

If people detect errors or important omissions, I will correct and modify the numbers.

About Attack Bonus:
-Although attack bonus is important for many builds (esp 3/4 BAB classes), all dps in this thread is calculated assuming that the build will hit on a 2 or better. This is true in a large variety of scenarios providing the build in question has a good set of equipment and is fully buffed. Calculating dps for builds with low attack bonuses can become quite complicated, as you have to consider the whole attack progression, or if they are breaking their attack chain you might have to take into account a penalty for moving and the disadvantage of lossing your higher+ swings which occur later in the attack chain. Much of this may change in mod 9 as the devs have indicated that they would like to include more high AC mobs. The calculations might become further complicated with need to add in grazing blows.

About Average Damage:
-DPS in this thread is calculated using the average roll for each dice. For example, the average base damage for a 1d10 weapon (like a greensteel khopesh) is 5.5. Some people think it should be 5, but look at it this way:

1) take all the possible rolls (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10)
2) add them up (=55)
3) divide by the faces of the dice (55/10 = 5.5)

To calculate this for other weapons or effects, just take the #faces on the dice, add 1 and divide by 2. (i.e. for the example about =(10+1)/2)

About Weighted Averages:

there are 20 possible attack rolls (d20). The types of hits you get out of these rolls can be divided into several catagories:

1) misses -typically 1's in this thread (so 1/20 =5%)
2) normal hits -a range from 2 (in this thread, though the number becomes higher for high AC mobs) to just below the critical threat range of your weapon, so for a rapier this would be 2 through 14 (so 13/20 or 65% of the time)
3) critical hits - a range of numbers based on the critical threat range of your weapon, for the rapier in #2 above this would be 15 through 20 (so 6/20 or 30% of the time). Critical hits can be further divided into auto hits (rolls of 20 = 1/20 or 5%) or improved crits for barbaraisn (rolls of 19 and 20 = 2/20 or 10% of the time).

We use these proportions to multiply by the damage from that type of hit to come up with a weighted average, which can then be added together to come up with a total average for expected damage. i.e:

(damage on misses * chance of a miss) + (damage on normal hits * chance of a normal hit) + (damage on critical hits * chance of a critical hit) = average expected damage

for a rapier this would be:
(misses * 1/20) + (norm damage * 13/20) + (crit damage *6/20) = average expected damage.

About DPS ranking:

the list above mostly assumes the builds will be fighting in optimal conditions (i.e. buffed, hasted, bypassing DR, vs their favored enemies). I have calculated numbers removing FE and such things for a few of the builds to give people a flavor for how it changes things. For example, compare a pure WF ranger vs favored enemies doing 431.8 dps vs the same build vs non-favored doing 344.7 dps. It's not really practical to list all the scenarios here, hopefully people can use a bit of common sense when regarding the rankings (i.e. you might look at the slash spec'd tempest kensai and wonder "hmm.. how is his dps going to be vs the Black Abbot in mod 9 if I don't have FE undead and I'm using warhammers...").

Ranger splashes:
Many of the builds only have 2 favored enemies (lvl 6 ranger tempest multiclasses), which means they have to be quiet careful about which FE's they pick. The 6 ranger splash is very popular amongst builders as it is the largest incremental damage added for 6 levels of any class. Proponents of the 6rgr splash typically claim that the FE's they choose account for most of the opponents found at end game or that they can just change out their FE feat when running different content. Detractors of the builds claim that 2 FE's is too narrow of a range. Popular FE's include Evil outsider, Elemental, Construct, Giant, and Undead.

Fighter splashes:
A large portion of fighter DPS comes from weapon specilization (up to +8 for a kensai with their chosen weapon). With the changes to transmuting in mod 9, fighters will lose a large portion of their damage vs. creatures that have dr/weapon type (i.e. a slash spec'd kensai will lose dps vs a mob with dr/blunt).

Rogue splashes:
Most rogue damage comes via backstabbing and sneak attack. To get an idea of how dps decreases vs. agro'd or sneak attack immune mobs you can check out the rogue dps chart in post #2 below which shows rogue dps vs. various levels of fortification (for example 50% fort means that both 50% of critical hits and 50% of sneak attack are avoided).

Barbarians:
Many people have been a bit upset with the ranking of barbarians in the above chart. It pays to remember that very little of their dps is situation specific (except loss of frenzy crit damage vs. crit immune mobs). Barbarians are more melee generalists which means they don't have to specialize to fight a specific mob. (i.e. they use all weapons, and fight all types of mobs equally well). Compare this to a kensai fighter (1 weapon type only) ranger (fe's) rogue (sneak attack) or paladin (evil outsiders, undead).

Paladins:
A large portion of paladins dps comes from the new enhancements when fighting evil outsiders (knight of the chalice) or undead (hunter of the dead). Smites may also contribute significantly, depending on the duration of the fight. Palidans require alot more "clicking" then the other core melee classes, and may be difficult to manage when trying to fit in some effects like "madstone".

3/4 BAB classes (cleric, bard, rogue):
The calculations in this thread assume that these classes have utilized some spell or item to increase their BAB to that of the core melee classes. Madstone boots achieve this effect but preclude spellcasting. Divine power spell (for cleric) or clickies (for bard and rogue) also achieve this effect. In some cases it is actually advantageous to have a lower BAB due to the long animation time of the 5th attck, however I have not currently worked that into the chart. Often, what would be the maximum DPS is very impractical for these classes. For example, you could make a cleric with all lvl up points to strength and max charisma/strength but then your casting ability as a cleric would suffer.

About Gear, Tomes, and Buffs
People have different ideas of what should be included in these. Obviously, for a good portion of game content you aren't going to have a personal warchanter to sing to you and a cleric to spam prayer at you. You are probably going to make do with less thant +4 tomes, and be madstoned only a portion of the times. I've included these things in my numbers because it seemed to me that the majority of people who are concerned about high DPS are also concerned about being completely geared out. The relative positioning of builds in the dps chart would change only marginally if I didn't include these things. The important things is just that the same assumptions are made with all builds. I'll try and post some comparisons of fully geared- vs moderately geared builds so people can get a sense for the differences.

gfunk
03-06-2009, 12:14 PM
Editing.. adding graphs for various builds



http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/fighterdpschart.jpg

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/rogue2.jpg

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/rngr.jpg

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/brb.jpg

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/wpns.jpg
I'll add in seperate tables including haste boost enh (or damage boost enh in case of barbarians or humans) later.

Rogue dps calc details:
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/roguecalcdetails.jpg

barbarian calc details:
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/barbariancalcdetails.jpg

rangers dps calc details
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/rangers.jpg
fighters:
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/fighters.jpg
adding others...

maddmatt70
03-06-2009, 12:18 PM
For the Paladin did you factor in Zeal and divine favor? I can't see if you did.. Thanks by the way..

gfunk
03-06-2009, 12:22 PM
For the Paladin did you factor in Zeal and divine favor? I can't see if you did.. Thanks by the way..

Oops.. I'll fix those in a bit. My familiarity with the palidan class is poor. thx for pointing that out.

maddmatt70
03-06-2009, 12:25 PM
The other comment is new feats such as superior weapon specialization which or may not be coming in the game in mod 9 are not factored in.. These feats will help fighters of course..

maddmatt70
03-06-2009, 12:27 PM
Does the assassin get the same attacks per round as the other classes? Are you using divine power clickies?

Geonis
03-06-2009, 12:37 PM
Uh, as far as the Pally numbers, my finesse-based TWF Pally (with Pwr Atk), crit smites for average of 300 (first number, with Holy Sword spell rapiers), and isn't even pure Pally (14 levels of Pally).

Don't forget the multiplier goes up with Exalted Smite.

maddmatt70
03-06-2009, 12:44 PM
The monster only has 6 favored enemy damage and not 7. 2 form favored enemy enhancements and 4 from the actual favored enemies themselves..

Gryphton
03-06-2009, 12:45 PM
Looks nice so far. Thanks for taking the time to run the numbers. If you find the extra time, what does a Raged 20 Barb with Crit Rage II swinging Heavy Picks do?

maddmatt70
03-06-2009, 01:01 PM
A question for your pally is madstone vs. divine favor. It will probably be unlikely that most paladins will have both because of duration of divine favor only being 2 min. Zeal on the other hand will be 5 min duration at level 20 and would be workable with madstone. Note: both zeal and divine favor are extended here.

gfunk
03-06-2009, 01:04 PM
Uh, as far as the Pally numbers, my finesse-based TWF Pally (with Pwr Atk), crit smites for average of 300 (first number, with Holy Sword spell rapiers), and isn't even pure Pally (14 levels of Pally).

Don't forget the multiplier goes up with Exalted Smite.

I had some errors ..forgot to put pali level into calcs, thx for pointing it out.

I might also point out that lots of people tend to think of their high crits being representitive of their average damage, but if you have a different number it would be great if you posted the calcs for it.

gfunk
03-06-2009, 01:06 PM
A question for your pally is madstone vs. divine favor. It will probably be unlikely that most paladins will have both because of duration of divine favor only being 2 min. Zeal on the other hand will be 5 min duration at level 20 and would be workable with madstone. Note: both zeal and divine favor are extended here.

yeah.. I would have to add in more cases. You notice I've put in double madstone with all of these too, which i might change at some point to single madstone.

** edit, still thinking about how best to deal with this.

gfunk
03-06-2009, 01:11 PM
Does the assassin get the same attacks per round as the other classes?

Same for now as I'm not sure what the # attacks is for BAB 20 for the other classes (not sure if they will add in an attack animation or not). Rogue at least is a known value (bab 15 at lvl 20). I'll rectify this if someone has some more info about bab 20's

** edit, I should point out that all builds are madstoned, so the BAB thing shouldn't be an issue anyways. Still, I wish i knew what the attack numbers were at BAB 20 (Esp for the superior twf numbers)

gfunk
03-06-2009, 01:36 PM
Looks nice so far. Thanks for taking the time to run the numbers. If you find the extra time, what does a Raged 20 Barb with Crit Rage II swinging Heavy Picks do?

Human? or WF?

** edit, added in WF version

maddmatt70
03-06-2009, 02:39 PM
Not to make this anymore complex for you but the other two top dps builds I think in ddo not listed are 14 paladin/6 ranger and 13 rogue 6 ranger 1 something else lets say barbarian for dps purposes. Anyway thanks again GFunk..

gfunk
03-06-2009, 02:43 PM
Not to make this anymore complex for you but the other two top dps builds I think in ddo not listed are 14 paladin/6 ranger and 13 rogue 6 ranger 1 something else lets say barbarian for dps purposes. Anyway thanks again GFunk..

np.. ill try to get them in the next while here (though i probably should do some RL work). I want to get to "the exploiter" first, not that it's the best dps but it has been a major topic of discussion.

As a side note, I would appreciate some scrutiny of the Crit Rage II barbarian numbers that i have posted. They seem a bit low.

maddmatt70
03-06-2009, 03:24 PM
np.. ill try to get them in the next while here (though i probably should do some RL work). I want to get to "the exploiter" first, not that it's the best dps but it has been a major topic of discussion.

As a side note, I would appreciate some scrutiny of the Crit Rage II barbarian numbers that i have posted. They seem a bit low.

I think you missed the barbarian power attack enhancements on the dwarf barbarian.. Yeah you need to tinker with the dwarf barbarian/ranger character it looks like it needs some editing..

maddmatt70
03-06-2009, 03:28 PM
Oh and FYI divine favor actually is now +3 and not +6 the devs fixed this a few mods ago to better reflect the same change in 3.5 D&D.

Monkey_Archer
03-06-2009, 03:34 PM
All the barbs could go 11 PA, Dwarves could go 8.
Crit rage barbs are low becuase they get it at lvl 14, and are being compaired to much higher level (and better) enhancements.

Ooooh.. Let me do one :D

Kensai Fighter Greataxe
main / offhand
5 weapon
16 power attack
4 kensai
2 fighter enh
4 weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.............36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
...............8 str (power surge)
...............2 str (rage)
...............2 str (madstone 1)
...............2 str (madstone 2)
30 (50 str total)
61 total damage modifier

71.5 avg regular damage (GS Greataxe)
256.5 avg crit damage (+14 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
57.2 weighted reg damage (*16/20)
38.475 weighted crit damage (*3/20)
95.675 Average unhasted damage per swing

5 # of attacks per round
478.375 total avg damage per round
526.2125 * 1.10 melee alacrity


35.75 damge per glancing blow (half of main damage)
3 # glancing blows per round
107.25 glancing blow damage per round
117.975 * 1.1 melee alacrity

Total: 644.1875

Aaxeyu
03-06-2009, 03:37 PM
Heya Gfunk

I like your idea of comparing the classes dps like this. We all know that a LOT of people are actually very clueless about how much DPS their classes actually deal.

Just a few thoughts..
First I really think you should add weapon effects, as builds with more attacks gets more benefit from them

And secondly, you are still counting in haste boosts as 30%, tempest as 10% so why not just make it damage per second instead of damage per round?

maddmatt70
03-06-2009, 03:38 PM
All the barbs could go 11 PA, Dwarves could go 8.
Crit rage barbs are low becuase they get it at lvl 14, and are being compaired to much higher level (and better) enhancements.

Ooooh.. Let me do one :D

Kensai Fighter Greataxe
main / offhand
5 weapon
16 power attack
4 kensai
2 fighter enh
4 weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.............36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
...............8 str (power surge)
...............2 str (rage)
...............2 str (madstone 1)
...............2 str (madstone 2)
30 (50 str total)
61 total damage modifier

71.5 avg regular damage (GS Greataxe)
256.5 avg crit damage (+14 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
57.2 weighted reg damage (*16/20)
38.475 weighted crit damage (*3/20)
95.675 Average unhasted damage per swing

5 # of attacks per round
478.375 total avg damage per round
526.2125 * 1.10 melee alacrity


35.75 damge per glancing blow (half of main damage)
3 # glancing blows per round
107.25 glancing blow damage per round
117.975 * 1.1 melee alacrity

Total: 644.1875

That is a whole different can of worms thf. You could post thf builds barbarian 20, fighter 20, rogue 19 barbarian 1 acrobat q-staff, paladin 20 and do a comparison of those as well lol..

Angelus_dead
03-06-2009, 03:42 PM
[COLOR=yellow]DPS TABLE (from below)
I see no Inspire Courage in the results. I also don't see Tharne's Goggles.

Omitting those factors which are part of real DDO DPS makes Tempest, Paladin, and Kensai look relatively worse than they actually are.

Monkey_Archer
03-06-2009, 03:51 PM
I see no Inspire Courage in the results. I also don't see Tharne's Goggles.

Omitting those factors which are part of real DDO DPS makes Tempest, Paladin, and Kensai look relatively worse than they actually are.

Yep.... was just a matter of time before someone brought GEAR into a class comparison.

Lets redo all the number for those with tharnes...
then redo for weapon effects...
then redo with both..
then redo for bard buffs but no tharnes..
then redo for bard buffs and tharnes
then redo for Warchanter..
then redo for warchanter + effects + tharnes

All thats nice but NOW you must do choker too...

gfunk
03-06-2009, 03:55 PM
I see no Inspire Courage in the results. I also don't see Tharne's Goggles.

Omitting those factors which are part of real DDO DPS makes Tempest, Paladin, and Kensai look relatively worse than they actually are.

I could include inspire courage and prayer, though I wanted to make the charts as self-buffed. Personally I only see a bard in ~60% of the raids I run, and maybe 10% of the quests, so I don't like to include it in how I personally think about dps (im a pessimist). That said, it probably is a good idea to have a seperate "buffed" chart.

Also, its a bit tricky to add in tharnes, though perhaps I can do it on a seperate table. Obviously, it would only impact your dps in places where you don't have agro (and even my dex based ranger gets agro a lot). I included sneak attack damage on the rogue (without tharnes) as they have enhancements to mitigate agro, and its a central aspect of the class. I will likely include the numbers for the melees with Tharnes in a seperate "non-agro" table.

maddmatt70
03-06-2009, 03:56 PM
Yep.... was just a matter of time before someone brought GEAR into a class comparison.

Lets redo all the number for those with tharnes...
then redo for weapon effects...
then redo with both..
then redo for bard buffs but no tharnes..
then redo for bard buffs and tharnes
then redo for Warchanter..
then redo for warchanter + effects + tharnes

All thats nice but NOW you must do choker too...

Well I would say the tharnes gogles is as easy to acquire as the madstone boots right now. For both it takes about 20 runs to have about 90% certainty of having one of each which take a little less then 60 days.

gfunk
03-06-2009, 03:57 PM
Yep.... was just a matter of time before someone brought GEAR into a class comparison.

Lets redo all the number for those with tharnes...
then redo for weapon effects...
then redo with both..
then redo for bard buffs but no tharnes..
then redo for bard buffs and tharnes
then redo for Warchanter..
then redo for warchanter + effects + tharnes

All thats nice but NOW you must do choker too...


lol.. I took out the choker because of its limitations...

Effects are complicated. Which weapon should i use? min II, lightning strike? radience for the rogue? triple pos? It opens up a whole other can of worms, though I will consider doing it if I am super-bored at work over the next couple of weeks.

Monkey_Archer
03-06-2009, 04:06 PM
Well I would say the tharnes gogles is as easy to acquire as the madstone boots right now. For both it takes about 20 runs to have about 90% certainty of having one of each which take a little less then 60 days.

Its not supposed to be hard... but when your fighter sees that +3 str tome for #20 waiting 120 days isnt out of the question :D

tharnes adds +8 damage x 5 attacks x 2 weapons = 80 damage per round
or 88 with 10% alacrity..
for a difference of 8 damage per round..
given that its only when you dont have agro, and not every1 has it... i think its more accurate to leave it out anyway.

In other words: Add 8 to tempest kensai pali if you must....

gfunk
03-06-2009, 04:06 PM
Oh and FYI divine favor actually is now +3 and not +6 the devs fixed this a few mods ago to better reflect the same change in 3.5 D&D.

thx.. ill get to that

maddmatt70
03-06-2009, 04:12 PM
Its not supposed to be hard... but when your fighter sees that +3 str tome for #20 waiting 120 days isnt out of the question :D

tharnes adds +8 damage x 5 attacks x 2 weapons = 80 damage per round
or 88 with 10% alacrity..
for a difference of 8 damage per round..
given that its only when you dont have agro, and not every1 has it... i think its more accurate to leave it out anyway.

This is one of those hey who do you run with and situational questions. On a shroud pounding on Harry everybody who has one of these gets the tharnes at least if that one person doesn't have aggro. The folks I run with for shroud speeds it is more the question of who doesn't have one and this is usually a player who is playing a newer character. On average I would say 5 out of the 7 melee on these shrouds are getting tharnes damage on Harry - the guy with aggro and the 1 melee who doesn't have the goggles. If you are fighting different mobs and the like and are spread out so you wouldn't get sneak damage of course then it is harder to count tharnes.

Cold_Stele
03-06-2009, 04:18 PM
Forgive me if it's been mentioned - your stats are too high on KotC.

Even assuming three +4 tomes you're example has base Str 18, Dex 13, Cha 16. That's 31 points right there. Realistically Str needs to be 16 base?

gfunk
03-06-2009, 04:22 PM
Forgive me if it's been mentioned - your stats are too high on KotC.

Even assuming three +4 tomes you're example has base Str 18, Dex 13, Cha 16. That's 31 points right there. Realistically Str needs to be 16 base?

yeah... there are a few unrealistic things here and there in the "builds" (particularily with the enhancements picked, though I believe all of them are "possible" just not always optimal for the rest of the build). I'll try and change them to coincide with the majority of peoples expectations regarding the class. Your suggestion makes sense, as I doubt too many pali's would go for an 18 base str (though as previously mentioned my familiarity with the pali class is fairly poor, having only taken one up to mid levels before deleting)

Monkey_Archer
03-06-2009, 04:48 PM
This is one of those hey who do you run with and situational questions. On a shroud pounding on Harry everybody who has one of these gets the tharnes at least if that one person doesn't have aggro. The folks I run with for shroud speeds it is more the question of who doesn't have one and this is usually a player who is playing a newer character. On average I would say 5 out of the 7 melee on these shrouds are getting tharnes damage on Harry - the guy with aggro and the 1 melee who doesn't have the goggles. If you are fighting different mobs and the like and are spread out so you wouldn't get sneak damage of course then it is harder to count tharnes.

Harry also has 50%? fortification for only 40 damage per round 44 with alacrity resulting in 4 extra damage per round for the fast attacking types...
So add 4 damage for one of the few situations where you are guaranteed to get sneak attack damage.

3 good reasons not to include tharnes:
1) Not everybody has it
2) This is a class comparison
3) It is nearly impossible to calculate "actual" dps gains as every situation will be different.

gfunk
03-06-2009, 04:53 PM
moved to post #46

gfunk
03-06-2009, 04:57 PM
Harry also has 50%? fortification for only 40 damage per round 44 with alacrity resulting in 4 extra damage per round for the fast attacking types...
So add 4 damage for one of the few situations where you are guaranteed to get sneak attack damage.

3 good reasons not to include tharnes:
1) Not everybody has it
2) This is a class comparison
3) It is nearly impossible to calculate "actual" dps gains as every situation will be different.

3) It is tough, but I think that the DDO community thinks of DPS in certain "reference" situations,

i.e. DPS while attacking Harry, DPS vs trash mobs, DPS vs Sally as tank, DPS vs Sally as non-agro combatants, DPS vs uncritable opponents, etc etc..

At some point I would like to include 50% fortification in my numbers. I would also like to do a complete combat breakdown (in a reference situation such as attacking harry) that would estimate

a) how much damage each build would take,
b) how much healing resources they would require,
c) how much actual dps would they output taking into consideration attack bonus

Time permitting....

gfunk
03-06-2009, 05:03 PM
Heya Gfunk

I like your idea of comparing the classes dps like this. We all know that a LOT of people are actually very clueless about how much DPS their classes actually deal.

Just a few thoughts..
First I really think you should add weapon effects, as builds with more attacks gets more benefit from them

And secondly, you are still counting in haste boosts as 30%, tempest as 10% so why not just make it damage per second instead of damage per round?

As previously mentioned, weapon effects are tough to include because every1 uses different weapons (though mineral II would be my choice as a comparison weapon if i picked one).

And I'm not quite ready to delve into damage per second. Perhaps i will include it when cforce's thread comes to a conclusion:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819

If you wish to do it for your own purposes, it wouldn't be hard to just take the numbers I have posted, and divide them by time/round

EinarMal
03-06-2009, 05:28 PM
Pretty cool how high up Colossus (12 fighter / 8 barbarian) charted. At least that gives hope for odd ball builds still having some viability beyond the cookie cutter stuff.

Aaxeyu
03-06-2009, 05:42 PM
As previously mentioned, weapon effects are tough to include because every1 uses different weapons (though mineral II would be my choice as a comparison weapon if i picked one).

And I'm not quite ready to delve into damage per second. Perhaps i will include it when cforce's thread comes to a conclusion:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819

If you wish to do it for your own purposes, it wouldn't be hard to just take the numbers I have posted, and divide them by time/round

You could just include mineral II on every build, it might not be perfect but it better than no weapon effects at all.

You could aswell use damage per second as your calcs are already assuming that the speedboosts are not working as Eladrin said.

I have made a calc in an excel sheet that I use when calculating dps..

Cold_Stele
03-06-2009, 05:47 PM
Hey gfunk did you add another +2 to pure Kensai for Sup Wpn Spec yet? :D

For what it's worth I do think Min II is a universal constant so to speak. The Imp crit range classes (old Barb, kensai) are not being given accurate numbers as burst/blast damage isn't being calculated.

Btw - this is an excellent thread bro. thanks for your hard work.

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-06-2009, 06:13 PM
You missed monk/16 off your table. Would be interesting to know monk with +5 holy burst wraps vs stunned mob with tharne's goggles. :)

Garth

gfunk
03-06-2009, 09:06 PM
For what it's worth I do think Min II is a universal constant so to speak. The Imp crit range classes (old Barb, kensai) are not being given accurate numbers as burst/blast damage isn't being calculated.

I'm sort of convinced to add this in now, though it won't be until monday at least (this stuff is best left for the office).


You missed monk/16 off your table. Would be interesting to know monk with +5 holy burst wraps vs stunned mob with tharne's goggles. :)

Garth

I was wondering when someone would ask about monk...might as well ask about battle sorcs and flerics..

Just kidding. I will include monk, however I wanted to start with the classes that were more commonly cited in terms of high dps. Plus, I am not as familiar which configurations of the monk provide the class with it's highest dps (having never capped one myself). Over the next bit I'll look into it and add it in.

And despite my kidding about it, I probably will try and add in the other "non-traditional" melee types as time goes on. I'm sort of thinking of it as a long term project to pass time when I'm bored.

Cold_Stele
03-06-2009, 09:49 PM
I was wondering when someone would ask about monk...might as well ask about battle sorcs and flerics..

No Monks please - this is a DPS thread.

JK Garth ;)

stockwizard5
03-06-2009, 10:07 PM
Interesting data ... Some more creative builds do add substantially to the overall DPS but this creates a nice starting point.

Borror0
03-07-2009, 02:02 AM
Post here so I don't forget to check this post later on when I have the time.

Gryphton
03-07-2009, 04:47 AM
Love the thread. How about adding the Haste boost to all of them though. Seems like some would catch up more so with the haste once factoring bursting and blasting damage and the higher crits.

Might as well toss in the Monk just so the DPS builds can get a quick laugh ;)

Borror0
03-07-2009, 08:05 AM
For Frenzied Barbarian, it'd be interesting to have the Frenzy, Death Frenzy, Frenzy + Death Frenzy and no Frenzy numbers.

gfunk
03-09-2009, 01:42 PM
See Original post for Summary Chart with Weapon effects (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2081540&postcount=1)
(numbers below for reference only)

Kensai Fighter
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
49 / 39 .. total damage modifier
54.5 / 44.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
193.5 / 163.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
38.15 / 31.15 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
48.375 / 40.875 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
94.125 / 79.625 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.75 / 2.75 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.8 15.8 .. total weapon effects

109.925 95.425 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
549.625 / 477.125 .. total avg damage per round
1026.75 .. total main + off hand
1129.425 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

Kensai Fighter (no str surge)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 42 str (total)
45 / 37 .. total damage modifier
50.5 / 42.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
181.5 / 157.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
35.35 / 29.75 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
45.375 / 39.375 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
88.325 / 76.725 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.75 / 2.75 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.8 / 15.8 .. total weapon effects

104.125 92.525 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
520.625 / 462.625 .. total avg damage per round
983.25 .. total main + off hand
1081.575 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

halfling Kensai Fighter
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon

7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh

4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 34 unbuffed str (16bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
19 / 9 .. 50 str (total)
45 / 35 .. total damage modifier
50.5 / 40.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
181.5 / 151.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
35.35 / 28.35 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
45.375 / 37.875 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
7.6 / 7.6 halfling guile
95.925 / 81.425 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.75 / 2.75 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.8 15.8 .. total weapon effects
111.725 97.225 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
558.625 / 486.125 .. total avg damage per round
1044.75 .. total main + off hand
1149.225 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1493.9925 *1.30 haste boost III
WF Strength Based Tempest Ranger (rapier)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. rams might (possibly to be nerfed?)
14 / 14 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
15 / 7 .. 41 str (total)
52 / 44 .. total damage modifier
57.5 / 49.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
127 / 111 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
37.375 / 32.175 .. weighted reg damage (*13/20)
38.1 / 33.3 .. weighted crit damage (*6/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
83.075 / 73.075 .. Average damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.65 / 1.65 1d10 acid on crit tier II (11*6/20)
0.7 / 0.7 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.7 / 14.7 total weapon effects
97.775 87.775 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

6 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
586.65 / 438.875 .. total avg damage per round
1025.525 .. total main + off hand
1128.0775 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

WF Strength Based Tempest Ranger (khopesh)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. rams might (possibly to be nerfed?)
14 / 14 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
15 / 7 .. 41 str (total)
52 / 44 .. total damage modifier
57.5 / 49.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
190.5 / 166.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
43.125 / 37.125 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
38.1 / 33.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
88.825 / 78.025 .. Average damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
104.075 93.275 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

6 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
624.45 / 466.375 .. total avg damage per round
1090.825 .. total main + off hand
1199.9075 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

WF Strength Based Tempest Ranger, vs un favored (khopesh)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. rams might (possibly to be nerfed?)
0 / 0 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
15 / 7 .. 41 str (total)
38 / 30 .. total damage modifier
43.5 / 35.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
148.5 / 124.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
32.625 / 26.625 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
29.7 / 24.9 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
69.925 / 59.125 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
85.175 74.375 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

6 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
511.05 / 371.875 .. total avg damage per round
882.925 .. total main + off hand
971.2175 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

WF Frezy I WF Barbarian
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
11 / 11 .. power attack
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (mighty rage)
........... .. 4 str (power rage iv)
........... .. 2 str (capstone)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
21 / 10 .. 53 str (total)
45 / 34 .. total damage modifier
50.5 / 39.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
169.5 / 136.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
282.5 / 227.5 .. avg (19 or 20) crit damage (GS Khopesh)
37.875 / 29.625 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
16.95 / 13.65 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
28.25 / 22.75 .. weighted (19 or 20) crit damage (*2/20)
83.075 / 66.025 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
6.65 / 6.65 .. Average vicious damage (2d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
97.325 / 80.275 .. subtotal

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
112.575 95.525 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
562.875 / 477.625 .. total avg damage per round
1040.5 .. total main + off hand
WF Death Frezy WF Barbarian
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
11 / 11 .. power attack
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (mighty rage)
........... .. 4 str (power rage iv)
........... .. 2 str (capstone)
........... .. 4 str (death frenzy)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
23 / 11 .. 57 str (total)
47 / 35 .. total damage modifier
52.5 / 40.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
175.5 / 139.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
292.5 / 232.5 .. avg (19 or 20) crit damage (GS Khopesh)
39.375 / 30.375 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
17.55 / 13.95 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
29.25 / 23.25 .. weighted (19 or 20) crit damage (*2/20)
86.175 / 67.575 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
13.3 / 13.3 .. Average greater vicious damage (4d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
107.075 / 88.475 .. subtotal

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
122.325 103.725 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
611.625 / 518.625 .. total avg damage per round
1130.25 .. total main + off hand

wf Double Frezied Barbarian
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
11 / 11 .. power attack
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (mighty rage)
........... .. 4 str (power rage iv)
........... .. 2 str (capstone)
2 str (frenzy)
........... .. 4 str (death frenzy)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
24 / 12 .. 59 str (total)
48 / 36 .. total damage modifier
53.5 / 41.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
178.5 / 142.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
297.5 / 237.5 .. avg (19 or 20) crit damage (GS Khopesh)
40.125 / 31.125 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
17.85 / 14.25 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
29.75 / 23.75 .. weighted (19 or 20) crit damage (*2/20)
87.725 / 69.125 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
19.95 / 19.95 .. Average vicious + greater damage (6d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
115.275 / 96.675 .. subtotal

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
130.525 111.925 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
652.625 / 559.625 .. total avg damage per round
1212.25 .. total main + off hand

WF Strength Based Assassin
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack

.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
14 / 7 .. 39 str (total)
35 / 28 .. total damage modifier
40.5 / 33.5 .. avg crit damage (GS Khopesh)
157.5 / 136.5 .. avg crit damage (+12 dmg to crits w/ assassin & bloodstone)
30.375 / 25.125 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
31.5 / 27.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
61.875 / 52.425 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
33.25 / 33.25 .. Average backstabbing damage (10d6)
14.25 / 14.25 .. sneak attack training V?
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
116.975 / 107.525 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
132.225 122.775 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
661.125 / 613.875 .. total avg damage per round
1275 .. total main + off hand
1657.5 *1.3 haste boost IV
WF Strength Based Assassin without sneak attack
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
14 / 7 .. 39 str (total)
35 / 28 .. total damage modifier
40.5 / 33.5 .. avg crit damage (GS Khopesh)
139.5 / 118.5 .. avg crit damage (+12 dmg to crits w/ assassin & bloodstone)
30.375 / 25.125 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
27.9 / 23.7 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
58.275 / 48.825 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
0 / 0 .. Average backstabbing damage (10d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
65.875 / 56.425 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
81.125 71.675 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
405.625 / 358.375 .. total avg damage per round
764 .. total main + off hand

WF Monster vs favored
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
1 / 1 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
2 2 .. rams might
6 6 .. favored enemy
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams might
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
21 / 10 .. 52 str (total)
57 / 46 .. total damage modifier
62.5 / 51.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
217.5 / 184.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
46.875 / 38.625 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
43.5 / 36.9 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
97.975 / 83.125 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
113.225 98.375 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
566.125 / 491.875 .. total avg damage per round
1058 .. total main + off hand
1163.8 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

WF Monster vs un-favored
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
1 / 1 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
2 2 .. rams might
0 0 .. favored enemy
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams might
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
21 / 10 .. 52 str (total)
51 / 40 .. total damage modifier
56.5 / 45.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
199.5 / 166.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
42.375 / 34.125 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
39.9 / 33.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
89.875 / 75.025 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
105.125 90.275 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
525.625 / 451.375 .. total avg damage per round
977 .. total main + off hand
1074.7 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

DWARF 14/6 barb/ranger vs favored wielding dwarven axes
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. dwarf axe enhancements
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
2 2 .. rams might
6 6 .. favored enemy
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 6 str (barb rage)
........... .. 2 str (rams might
........... .. 4 str (power rage IV)
........... .. 2 str (rage spell)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 51 str (total)

55 / 45 .. total damage modifier
64 / 54 .. avg regular damage (GS dwarven axe)
210 / 180 .. avg crit damage (+6 damage with bloodstone)
48 / 40.5 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20 crit rage II)
42 / 36 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20, crit rage II)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
97.6 / 84.1 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
112.85 99.35 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
564.25 / 496.75 .. total avg damage per round
1061 .. total main + off hand
1167.1 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

14/6 dwarf barb/ranger vs non-favored wielding dwarven axes
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. dwarf axe enhancements
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
2 2 .. rams might
0 0 .. favored enemy
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 6 str (barb rage)
........... .. 2 str (rams might
........... .. 4 str (power rage IV)
........... .. 2 str (rage spell)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 51 str (total)
49 / 39 .. total damage modifier
58 / 48 .. avg regular damage (GS dwarven axe)
192 / 162 .. avg crit damage (+6 damage with bloodstone)
43.5 / 36 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20 crit rage II)
38.4 / 32.4 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20, crit rage II)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
89.5 / 76 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
104.75 91.25 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
523.75 / 456.25 .. total avg damage per round
980 .. total main + off hand
1078 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

Critical Rage II WF Barbarian w/ heavy picks
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
11 / 11 .. power attack
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (mighty rage)
........... .. 4 str (power rage iv)
........... .. 2 str (capstone)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
21 / 10 .. 53 str (total)
45 / 34 .. total damage modifier

50.5 / 39.5 .. avg regular damage (GS heavy picks)
226 / 182 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
37.875 / 29.625 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
45.2 / 36.4 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
90.675 / 73.625 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
3.3 / 3.3 .. 3d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
16.35 / 16.35 .. total weapon effects
107.025 89.975 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
535.125 / 449.875 .. total avg damage per round
985 .. total main + off hand

Critical Rage II WF Barbarian w/ khopeshes
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
11 / 11 .. power attack
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (mighty rage)
........... .. 4 str (power rage iv)
........... .. 2 str (capstone)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
21 / 10 .. 53 str (total)
45 / 34 .. total damage modifier

49.5 / 38.5 .. avg regular damage (GS heavy picks)
166.5 / 133.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
32.175 / 25.025 .. weighted reg damage (*13/20)
49.95 / 40.05 .. weighted crit damage (*6/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
89.725 / 72.675 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
3.3 / 3.3 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*6/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
16.35 16.35 .. total weapon effects
106.075 89.025 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
530.375 / 445.125 .. total avg damage per round
975.5 .. total main + off hand

Colossus (12 fighter / 8 barbarian)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
10 / 10 .. power attack (wf power attack III, barb power attack II)
2 / 2 .. kensai
1 / 1 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 6 str rage
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
........... .. 2 str (frenzy)
24 / 12 .. 58 str (total)
54 / 42 .. total damage modifier

59.5 / 47.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
208.5 / 172.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
44.625 / 35.625 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
41.7 / 34.5 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
86.325 / 70.125 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
6.65 / 6.65 .. Average vicious damage (2d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
100.575 / 84.375 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
115.825 99.625 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
579.125 / 498.125 .. total avg damage per round
1077.25 .. total main + off hand

warforged monk w/ duel min II kamas
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
7.0 / 7.0 .. inspire courage
1.0 / 1.0 .. prayer
8.0 / 8.0 .. power attack
1.0 / 1.0 .. ki strike
/ .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
14.0 / 7.0 .. 39 str (total)
36.0 / 29.0 .. total damage modifier
40.5 / 33.5 .. avg regular damage
93.0 / 79.0 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
34.4 / 28.5 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
9.3 / 7.9 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
51.325 / 43.975 .. sub total


6.7 / 6.7 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.3 / 3.3 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
0.6 / 0.6 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (5.5*2/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.4 / 2.4 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
13.6 13.6 .. total weapon/ monk path effects
64.9 57.6 .. base + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
324.6 / 287.9 .. total avg damage per round
6.7 / 6.7 assuming 2 attacks attampted with master of thunder (2d6*19/20)
625.8 .. total main + off hand
719.7 .. 15% insight bonus to speed (greater wind stance)

Dex Based elven Tempest Ranger with rapiers, vs favored
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
2 2 elf rapier enhancements
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. rams might (possibly to be nerfed?)
14 / 14 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 24 unbuffed str (14bse, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
11 / 5 .. 32 str (total)
47 / 41 .. total damage modifier

51.5 / 45.5 .. avg regular damage (GS rapier)
115 / 103 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
33.475 / 29.575 .. weighted reg damage (*13/20)
34.5 / 30.9 .. weighted crit damage (*6/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
75.575 / 68.075 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.65 / 1.65 1d10 acid on crit tier II (11*6/20)
0.7 / 0.7 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.7 14.7 .. total weapon effects
90.275 82.775 .. base + weapon effects

6 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
541.65 / 413.875 .. total avg damage per round
955.525 .. total main + off hand
1051.0775 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

Dex Based elven Tempest Ranger with rapiers, vs non favored
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
2 2 elf rapier enhancements
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. rams might (possibly to be nerfed?)
0 / 0 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 24 unbuffed str (14bse, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
11 / 5 .. 32 str (total)
33 / 27 .. total damage modifier

37.5 / 31.5 .. avg regular damage (GS rapier)
87 / 75 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
24.375 / 20.475 .. weighted reg damage (*13/20)
26.1 / 22.5 .. weighted crit damage (*6/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
58.075 / 50.575 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.65 / 1.65 1d10 acid on crit tier II (11*6/20)
0.7 / 0.7 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.7 14.7 .. total weapon effects
72.775 65.275 .. base + weapon effects

6 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
436.65 / 326.375 .. total avg damage per round
763.025 .. total main + off hand
839.3275 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
The exploiter vs favored including sneak attack/backstab(khopesh)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer

5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. rams might (possibly to be nerfed?)
12 / 12 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 30 unbuffed str (15bse, 5 levels 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
14 / 7 .. 38 str (total)
46 / 39 .. total damage modifier
51.5 / 44.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
172.5 / 151.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
38.625 / 33.375 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
34.5 / 30.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. Average backstabbing damage (1d6) *19/20
2.85 2.85 .. sneak attack training I
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
86.9 / 77.45 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
102.15 92.7 .. base + weapon effects

6 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
612.9 / 463.5 .. total avg damage per round
1076.4 .. total main + off hand
1184.04 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

The exploiter vs. non-favored, no sneak attack (khopesh)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. rams might (possibly to be nerfed?)
0 / 0 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 30 unbuffed str (15bse, 5 levels 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
14 / 7 .. 38 str (total)
34 / 27 .. total damage modifier
39.5 / 32.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
136.5 / 115.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
29.625 / 24.375 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
27.3 / 23.1 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
0 / 0 .. Average backstabbing damage (1d6) *19/20
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
64.525 / 55.075 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
79.775 70.325 .. base + weapon effects

6 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
478.65 / 351.625 .. total avg damage per round
830.275 .. total main + off hand
913.3025 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

The exploiter vs favored including sneak attack/backstab(khopesh) w/haste boost I
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer

5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. rams might (possibly to be nerfed?)
12 / 12 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 30 unbuffed str (15bse, 5 levels 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
14 / 7 .. 38 str (total)
46 / 39 .. total damage modifier
51.5 / 44.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
172.5 / 151.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
38.625 / 33.375 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
34.5 / 30.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. Average backstabbing damage (1d6) *19/20
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
2.85 2.85 .. sneak attack training I
86.9 / 77.45 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
102.15 92.7 .. base + weapon effects

6 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
612.9 / 463.5 .. total avg damage per round
1076.4 .. total main + off hand
1184.04 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1361.646 *1.15 haste boost I

Halfling assassin
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
13 / 6 .. 37 str (total)
31 / 24 .. total damage modifier
36.5 / 29.5 .. avg crit damage (GS Khopesh)
139.5 / 118.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
27.375 / 22.125 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
27.9 / 23.7 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
55.275 / 45.825 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
33.25 / 33.25 .. Average backstabbing damage (10d6)
14.25 / 14.25 .. sneak attack training V?
7.6 7.6 halfling guild IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
117.975 / 108.525 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
133.225 123.775 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
666.125 / 618.875 .. total avg damage per round
1285 .. total main + off hand
1670.5 *1.3 haste boost IV

Dwarf Strength based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (dwarven axes)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
2 / 2 .. dwarven axe enhancements
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack
2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.. 4 str (barb rage)
2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
17 / 8 .. 45 str (total)
46 / 37 .. total damage modifier

57 / 48 .. avg normal damage (GS dwarwven axe)
189 / 162 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
48.45 / 40.8 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
18.9 / 16.2 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)

67.35 / 57 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
11.4 / 11.4 .. sneak attack training IV (12*19/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
109.625 / 99.275 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.1 / 1.1 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*2/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.15 14.15 .. total weapon effects
123.775 113.425 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
618.875 / 567.125 .. total avg damage per round
1186 .. total main + off hand
1304.6 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1695.98 *1.3 haste boost IV
Dwarf Strength based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (dwarven axes) without sneak attack vs non favored
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
2 / 2 .. dwarven axe enhancements
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack
2 / 2 rams might
0 / 0 favored enemy
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.. 4 str (barb rage)
2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
17 / 8 .. 45 str (total)
40 / 31 .. total damage modifier

51 / 42 .. avg normal damage (GS dwarwven axe)
171 / 144 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
43.35 / 35.7 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
17.1 / 14.4 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
60.45 / 50.1 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
0 / 0 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
68.05 / 57.7 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.1 / 1.1 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*2/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.15 14.15 .. total weapon effects
82.2 71.85 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
411 / 359.25 .. total avg damage per round
770.25 .. total main + off hand
847.275 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

halfling Strength based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (khopesh)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon

7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack

2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.......... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 4 str (barb rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 43 str (total)
43 / 35 .. total damage modifier

48.5 / 40.5 .. avg normal damage (GS khopesh)
163.5 / 139.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
36.375 / 30.375 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
32.7 / 27.9 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
69.075 / 58.275 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
11.4 / 11.4 .. sneak attack training IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
118.95 / 108.15 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
134.2 123.4 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
671 / 617 .. total avg damage per round
1288 .. total main + off hand
1416.8 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1841.84 *1.3 haste boost IV

halfling Rogue (assassin) 13/Ranger(tempest) 6/Barbarian 1
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack
2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.......... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 4 str (barb rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 43 str (total)
43 / 35 .. total damage modifier

48.5 / 40.5 .. avg normal damage (GS khopesh)
175.5 / 151.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
36.375 / 30.375 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
35.1 / 30.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
71.475 / 60.675 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
11.4 / 11.4 .. sneak attack training IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
121.35 / 110.55 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
136.6 125.8 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
683 / 629 .. total avg damage per round
1312 .. total main + off hand
1443.2 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1876.16 *1.3 haste boost IV

halfling Strength based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (khopesh) vs non favored without sneak attack
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack
2 / 2 rams might
0 / 0 favored enemy
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.......... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 4 str (barb rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 43 str (total)
37 / 29 .. total damage modifier

42.5 / 34.5 .. avg normal damage (GS khopesh)
145.5 / 121.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
31.875 / 25.875 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
29.1 / 24.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
60.975 / 50.175 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
0 / 0 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
68.575 / 57.775 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
83.825 73.025 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
419.125 / 365.125 .. total avg damage per round
784.25 .. total main + off hand
862.675 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1121.4775 *1.3 haste boost IV

halfling kensai fighter
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon

7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. Kensai
2 / 2 Fighter enhancements
4 / 4 weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 30 unbuffed str (15 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.......... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
17 / 8 .. 44 str (total)
43 / 34 .. total damage modifier

48.5 / 39.5 .. avg normal damage (GS khopesh)
175.5 / 148.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
33.95 / 27.65 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
43.875 / 37.125 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
93.025 / 79.975 .. sub total

93.025 / 79.975 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
108.275 95.225 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
541.375 / 476.125 .. total avg damage per round
1017.5 .. total main + off hand
1119.25 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1455.025 *1.3 haste boost IV


TWF dwarven stalwart defender
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
2 / 2 .. dwarven axe enhancements
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. Fighter enhancements
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 32 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 3 tome)
.......... .. 4 str (defensive stance)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 42 str (total)
42 / 34 .. total damage modifier

53 / 45 .. avg normal damage (Gs dwarven axes)
177 / 153 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
45.05 / 38.25 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
17.7 / 15.3 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
70.35 / 61.15 .. sub total

70.35 / 61.15 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.1 / 1.1 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*2/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.15 / 14.15 .. total Min II weapon effects
84.5 / 75.3 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
422.5 / 376.5 .. total avg damage per round
799 .. total main + off hand
878.9 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1054.68 .. *1.2 haste boost II

Human Kensai Fighter with damage boost +5
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
5 / 5 damage boost +5
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 4 enh, 6 item, 3 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 50 str (total)
47 / 39 .. total damage modifier
52.5 / 44.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
187.5 / 163.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
36.75 / 31.15 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
46.875 / 40.875 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
91.225 / 79.625 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.75 / 2.75 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.8 15.8 .. total weapon effects
107.025 95.425 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
535.125 / 477.125 .. total avg damage per round
1012.25 .. total main + off hand
1113.475 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

human Kensai Fighter with haste boost +30%
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 4 enh, 6 item, 3 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 50 str (total)
42 / 34 .. total damage modifier
47.5 / 39.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
172.5 / 148.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
33.25 / 27.65 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
43.125 / 37.125 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
83.975 / 72.375 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.75 / 2.75 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.8 15.8 .. total weapon effects
99.775 88.175 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
498.875 / 440.875 .. total avg damage per round
939.75 .. total main + off hand
1033.725 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1343.8425 *1.30 haste boost

WF Knight of the Chalice vs evil outsiders
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
7.0 / 7.0 .. inspire courage
1.0 / 1.0 .. prayer
8.0 / 8.0 .. power attack
8.0 / 8.0 .. paladin divine might IV
3.0 / 3.0 .. divine favor (spell)
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)



13.0 / 6.0 .. 37 str (total)
45.0 / 38.0 .. total damage modifier
50.5 / 43.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
169.5 / 148.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
37.9 / 32.6 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
33.9 / 29.7 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
71.8 / 62.3 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.3 / 23.3 .. Average evil outsider damage (7d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
102.7 / 93.2 .. sub total

6.7 / 6.7 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.3 / 3.3 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.4 / 2.4 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.3 15.3 .. total weapon effects
117.9 108.5 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
589.5 / 542.3 .. total avg damage per round
396.1 1131.8 .. total main + off hand (vs evil outsiders, not including smites)
430.1 1244.9 .. zeal (10%)
Smiting
Smiting
107.5 / 100.5 .. avg reg smite damage (GS Khopesh)
567.5 / 532.5 .. avg crit smite damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
80.6 / 75.4 .. weighted reg smite damage (*13/20)
113.5 / 106.5 .. weighted crit smite damage (*6/20)
194.1 181.9 .. avg smite/hand
-71.8 -62.3 minus non-smiting damage
241.9 .. average extra smite damage
1373.7 .. incl above + 1 smite/round
522.0 1486.8 .. DPS w/zeal+haste

Tempest I Knight of the Chalice II vs favored
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
7.0 / 7.0 .. inspire courage
1.0 / 1.0 .. prayer
8.0 / 8.0 .. power attack
4.0 / 4.0 .. paladin divine might II
3.0 / 3.0 .. divine favor (spell)
2.0 / 2.0 rams might
6.0 / 6.0 .. favored enemies
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
.. 2 str (rams might)
14.0 / 7.0 .. 39 str (total)
50.0 / 43.0 .. total damage modifier
55.5 / 48.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
184.5 / 163.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
41.6 / 36.4 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
36.9 / 32.7 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
78.5 / 69.1 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
6.7 / 6.7 .. Average evil outsider damage (2d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
92.8 / 83.3 .. sub total

6.7 / 6.7 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.3 / 3.3 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.4 / 2.4 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.3 15.3 .. total weapon effects
108.0 98.6 .. base + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
540.1 / 492.9 .. total avg damage per round
1033.0 .. total main + off hand (vs evil outsiders, not including smites)
392.5 1136.3 .. zeal (10%)
421.2 1249.9 tempest (10%) if stacking multiplicitavely (i.e. 1.10*1.10 = 1.21)
Smiting
94.5 / 87.5 .. avg reg smite damage (GS Khopesh)
502.5 / 467.5 .. avg crit smite damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
70.9 / 65.6 .. weighted reg smite damage (*13/20)
100.5 / 93.5 .. weighted crit smite damage (*6/20)
171.4 159.1 .. avg smite/hand
-78.5 -69.1 minus non-smiting damage
182.9 .. average extra smite damage
1215.9 .. incl above + 1 smite/round
495.8 1432.8 .. DPS w/tempest+zeal+haste

Knight of the Chalice not vs. evil outsiders
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
7.0 / 7.0 .. inspire courage
0.0 / 0.0 .. prayer
8.0 / 8.0 .. power attack
8.0 / 8.0 .. paladin divine might IV
3.0 / 3.0 .. divine favor (spell)


.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)

13.0 / 6.0 .. 37 str (total)
44.0 / 37.0 .. total damage modifier
49.5 / 42.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
166.5 / 145.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
37.1 / 31.9 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
33.3 / 29.1 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
81.4 / 71.9 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
3.3 / 3.3 weapons of good (vs evil portion)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
81.4 / 71.9 .. sub total

6.7 / 6.7 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.3 / 3.3 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.4 / 2.4 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.3 15.3 .. total weapon effects
96.6 87.2 .. base + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
483.0 / 435.8 .. total avg damage per round
321.3 918.8 .. total main + off hand (vs evil outsiders, not including smites)
349.1 1010.6 .. zeal (10%)

Demoyn
03-09-2009, 02:06 PM
I really appreciate this thread, Gfunk. It does seem that my builds (whether original or not) are a lot more potent than posters would try and have me believe.


Edit:

744.4.....Kensai fighter*
*current max "sustainable" and non-situational dps (meaning dps not inherently incurred)


Gee, I could have sworn that I posted a few days ago saying that the fighter would top the DPS charts and got laughed at by the "experts". I guess we just have a different understanding of what DPS is. Sort of like $3x, where I go for longevity, but they're happy with a 20 second burst or only counting the satisfaction opinion of the fat, ugly chicks (speed boost and favored enemy).

Demoyn
03-09-2009, 02:09 PM
** NEW chart, with weapon effects and buffs (see post on page 3 for details)

1226.5 .. 14/6 dwarf barb(crit rage II)/ranger w/ dwarven axes vs favored
1223.2 .. Monster vs. favored


These are backwards as the barb/ranger deals 3 more damage than the Monster. Hmm, go figure.

gfunk
03-09-2009, 02:14 PM
Love the thread. How about adding the Haste boost to all of them though. Seems like some would catch up more so with the haste once factoring bursting and blasting damage and the higher crits.

I only added the haste boost to the builds/classes that had that enhancement available to them.


These are backwards as the barb/ranger deals 3 more damage than the Monster. Hmm, go figure.

fixed

gfunk
03-09-2009, 03:57 PM
Alright all you monk fanatics, I'm going to need some help with this one (I'm not going to put it in the table till I have had some feedback). Also, I would like to do an unarmed version, however due to the # unarmed attacks per round, it isnt really directly comparable to two weapon fighting. Any thoughts regarding that would be helpful.

warforged monk w/ duel min II kamas
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
8.0 / 8.0 .. tharnes
7.0 / 7.0 .. inspire courage
1.0 / 1.0 .. prayer
8.0 / 8.0 .. power attack
1.0 / 1.0 .. ki strike
/ .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
14.0 / 7.0 .. 39 str (total)
44.0 / 37.0 .. total damage modifier
48.5 / 41.5 .. avg regular damage
109.0 / 95.0 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
41.2 / 35.3 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
10.9 / 9.5 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
52.1 / 44.8 .. Average damage per swing


6.7 / 6.7 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.3 / 3.3 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
0.6 / 0.6 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (5.5*2/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.4 / 2.4 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
13.6 13.6 .. total weapon/ monk path effects
65.7 58.4 .. base + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
328.6 / 291.9 .. total avg damage per round
6.7 / 6.7 assuming 2 attacks attampted with master of thunder (2d6*19/20)
633.8 .. total main + off hand
728.9 .. 15% insight bonus to speed (greater wind stance)

cforce
03-10-2009, 12:05 PM
gfunk, it will probably come as little surprise to you that this is my new favorite thread -- thanks for taking the time to do this. Should this thread maybe have a home in the guides forum, so it doesn't get pruned 3-6 months from now? It's a great resource.

(And, I'm still working on deconstructing the attack speed stuff so you can eventually fold that in, so stay tuned. Right now I'm stalled because I realized I need to level a Tempest build to really get good data.)

gfunk
03-10-2009, 01:14 PM
gfunk, it will probably come as little surprise to you that this is my new favorite thread -- thanks for taking the time to do this. Should this thread maybe have a home in the guides forum, so it doesn't get pruned 3-6 months from now? It's a great resource.

(And, I'm still working on deconstructing the attack speed stuff so you can eventually fold that in, so stay tuned. Right now I'm stalled because I realized I need to level a Tempest build to really get good data.)

Cool, thx.. it will be great to get your final numbers so that I can incorporate them.. Attack speeds probably remain the single biggest unknown when trying to compare the various dps classes with each other. I'm glad your working on it. If you get the chance to look into it, I would love to get some data on monk attack speeds as well, both with kamas and with unarmed attacks.

And yeah, this thread would probably do better in the guides forum, I just didn't want to post it there initially, as I wanted to get some more feedback before calling it a "guide".

gfunk
03-10-2009, 01:34 PM
I would also like to mention that I am looking for other accurate data in order to determine total effectiveness of the builds. For example, I think that most people would consider tanking in shroud part 4 to be a measuring bar with which they guage their melee's effectiveness.

If I had the data, I would take each builds average damage output, and damage taken (combination of armor class, and reflex saves +/- evasion or improved evasion) to come up with a total effectiveness rating for each build (+/- gear). In order to do this I would need substantiated data for:

Harry's bonus to hit, and amount of damage, plus average # melee attacks / interval
Harry's total hit points
Minimum saving throw for meteor swarns / dbf's (plus average number of each casted)
Average damage numbers for meteor swarms / dbf's

If anyone happens across this data, I would appreciate it if they let me know.

gfunk
03-10-2009, 03:37 PM
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/rogue.jpg

Crarites
03-10-2009, 04:03 PM
Something you may want to add to your list.


Human pally14/ranger6 chalice tempest zeal build.

Borror0
03-10-2009, 04:05 PM
FB with only Death Frenzy or Frenzy would be cool too. Both are more manageable HP loss than double frenzy.

gfunk
03-10-2009, 04:06 PM
Something you may want to add to your list.


Human pally14/ranger6 tempest zeal build.

That is a good one, I haven't added it yet as I was looking for an actual build for one that someone posted. I think it is more interesting then just posting a generic build that I have created, though if I don't dig one up on the forums I might have to just make my own.


FB with only Death Frenzy or Frenzy would be cool too. Both are more manageable HP loss than double frenzy.

getting to it..I promise

Crarites
03-10-2009, 04:08 PM
That is a good one, I haven't added it yet as I was looking for an actual build for one that someone posted. I think it is more interesting then just posting a generic build that I have created, though if I don't dig one up on the forums I might have to just make my own.



getting to it..I promise

I'm in the process of building one for the next mod. If my numbers are correct, unlikely, then I beleive they will be top DPS or very close to it.

Borror0
03-10-2009, 04:19 PM
That is a good one, I haven't added it yet as I was looking for an actual build for one that someone posted. I think it is more interesting then just posting a generic build that I have created, though if I don't dig one up on the forums I might have to just make my own.
Monkey and I ran the calcs for one in the paladin forums. We sort of agree on what one should have, along with Cold Stele.

If my numbers are correct, unlikely, then I beleive they will be top DPS or very close to it.
vs Evil Outsiders, a pure paladin beats you (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590).

Draccus
03-10-2009, 04:20 PM
Very interesting...

So what does this say about all those Shroud groups out there that are looking for DPS but have the Rogue icon turned off?

Crarites
03-10-2009, 04:28 PM
vs Evil Outsiders, a pure paladin beats you (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590).

My numbers say you are incorrect. I was just offering a build type that should be on this list.

Borror0
03-10-2009, 04:33 PM
My numbers say you are incorrect.
Well, my numbers are saying you are wrong... and we are two to have ran the numbers.

Perhaps you should consider looking over our numbers?

gfunk
03-10-2009, 04:35 PM
Very interesting...

So what does this say about all those Shroud groups out there that are looking for DPS but have the Rogue icon turned off?

Well, remember Harry has 50% fortification which reduces rogue dps and is not reflected in my numbers (I'll probably include a seperate chart for that st some point, I've held off because practical experience has led me to believe that I'm getting backstabbing damage >50% of the time, but I want to gather some statistics to check that).

I think the main reason for rejecting rogues isn't because people think that rogues have low dps, it's just because of the bad repuation created by the vast numbers of bad rogues. In particular there seems to be a large proportion or rogues that neglect to select subtle backstabbing in their enhancement list.

With the kind of damage they output and no subtle backstabbing, they will quickly get agro, then lose it again as their damage drops from loss of sneak attack. Damage then bounces up again as agro is lost, yielding inconsistant agro focus which is distressing to clerics. I suspect that shroud leaders will learn about how good rogues can be at the same time that rogues learn about agro management.

EinarMal
03-10-2009, 04:38 PM
Dwarf Strength based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1

Str 36=18 +5 Levels +3 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage +2 Rams

w/ Khopesh or Daxes

Sneak
7d6 +12 (Enh.) +8(VOD)

FE +6

Damage Profile:
Str 13
Sneak 44.5 (3.5*7 +12 +8)
FE 6
Rams 2
Weapon 5
PA 6

Should be right at the top...

Crarites
03-10-2009, 04:38 PM
Perhaps you should consider looking over our numbers?



I would if someone who had a habit of being correct were saying I was wrong.

gfunk
03-10-2009, 05:05 PM
Dwarf Strength based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1

Str 36=18 +5 Levels +3 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage +2 Rams

w/ Khopesh or Daxes

Sneak
7d6 +12 (Enh.) +8(VOD)

FE +6

Damage Profile:
Str 13
Sneak 44.5 (3.5*7 +12 +8)
FE 6
Rams 2
Weapon 5
PA 6

Should be right at the top...

Just quickly (did this one before others as you provided some build information.. makes it quicker to think about)


Dwarf Strength based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (dwarven axes)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
2 / 2 .. dwarven axe enhancements
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack
2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.. 4 str (barb rage)
2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
17 / 8 .. 45 str (total)
46 / 37 .. total damage modifier

57 / 48 .. avg normal damage (GS dwarwven axe)
189 / 162 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
48.45 / 40.8 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
18.9 / 16.2 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)

67.35 / 57 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
11.4 / 11.4 .. sneak attack training IV (12*19/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
109.625 / 99.275 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.1 / 1.1 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*2/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.15 14.15 .. total weapon effects
123.775 113.425 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
618.875 / 567.125 .. total avg damage per round
1186 .. total main + off hand
1304.6 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity



Khopesh will be better but it would make more sense to go WF (for +9 to power attack) if you were to do that and were building for dps only (I'll post a WF version at some point). You wouldn't be able to provide a builder enhancement list by any chance?

Cold_Stele
03-10-2009, 05:10 PM
My numbers say you are incorrect.

Did you include Divine Might III/IV in your calcs? That's where people often get incorrect numbers for the pure Pally DPS, accidentally omitting that Pallies get more DM damage from 15 onwards.

Tempest KotC definitely gets more DPS against non-EO's though.

EinarMal
03-10-2009, 05:11 PM
Khopesh will be better but it would make more sense to go WF (for +9 to power attack) if you were to do that and were building for dps only (I'll post a WF version at some point). You wouldn't be able to provide a builder enhancement list by any chance?

Well the one thing you would have to watch on a Rogue build like that is to-hit. I am not sure if -9 to hit, and no racial enhancements would work all that well. Although for just a DPS contest you could do it.

Aesop
03-10-2009, 05:12 PM
Very interesting...

So what does this say about all those Shroud groups out there that are looking for DPS but have the Rogue icon turned off?

Same thing it always has.

People don't know what a good rogue can do


Aesop

Borror0
03-10-2009, 05:13 PM
People don't know what a good rogue can do
Traps and keeping my backpack warm.

gfunk
03-10-2009, 05:23 PM
Well the one thing you would have to watch on a Rogue build like that is to-hit. I am not sure if -9 to hit, and no racial enhancements would work all that well. Although for just a DPS contest you could do it.

Yep... thats the thing currently, not factoring in to-hit bonus. However, the build is relying on sneak attack so they get +5 to hit from the goggles and what ever enhancements they have into sneak attack accuracy. Personally, I wouldn't want to make many of these builds myself. I wouldn't make a build that rely on just 2 favored enemies for a large portion of their dps, though I'm sure that works well for people who are just running the current end game content.

Aesop
03-10-2009, 05:37 PM
Traps and keeping my backpack warm.

I said a good rogue not some schlep rogue

Borror0
03-10-2009, 05:41 PM
I said a good rogue not some schlep rogue
Well, bad rogues don't keep my backpack warm.

Crarites
03-10-2009, 06:36 PM
Did you include Divine Might III/IV in your calcs? That's where people often get incorrect numbers for the pure Pally DPS, accidentally omitting that Pallies get more DM damage from 15 onwards.

Tempest KotC definitely gets more DPS against non-EO's though.

Yes, I included those enhancements in my calculation. I like this thread mainly because I've built something similar for my own use. While they certainly aren't the same they are close enough I'm curious as to where gfunk will place a tempest zeal build. I think he should use human however in the build example for this particular build.

gfunk
03-11-2009, 11:27 AM
Tempest I Knight of the Chalice II
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
4 / 4 .. paladin divine might II
3 / 3 .. divine favor (spell)
2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 .. favored enemies
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
.. 2 str (rams might)
14 / 7 .. 39 str (total)
50 / 43 .. total damage modifier
55.5 / 48.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
184.5 / 163.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
41.625 / 36.375 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
36.9 / 32.7 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
78.525 / 69.075 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
6.65 / 6.65 .. Average evil outsider damage (2d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
92.775 / 83.325 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
108.025 98.575 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
540.125 / 492.875 .. total avg damage per round
1033 .. total main + off hand (vs evil outsiders, not including smites)
1136.3 .. zeal (10%)
1249.93 tempest (10%) if stacking multiplicitavely (i.e. 1.10*1.10 = 1.21)
1239.6 (if 10%+10% =20%)

Smiting
94.5 / 87.5 .. avg reg smite damage (GS Khopesh)
502.5 / 467.5 .. avg crit smite damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
70.875 / 65.625 .. weighted reg smite damage (*13/20)
100.5 / 93.5 .. weighted crit smite damage (*6/20)
171.375 159.125 .. avg smite/hand
330.5 .. total avg smite
1363.5 .. incl above + 1 smite/round
1499.85 .. zeal (10%)
1649.835 tempest (10%) if stacking multiplicitavely (i.e. 1.10*1.10 = 1.21)
1636.2 (if 10%+10% =20%)

Tempest I Knight of the Chalice II (not vs evil outsiders)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
4 / 4 .. paladin divine might II
3 / 3 .. divine favor (spell)
2 / 2 .. rams might
0 / 0 .. favored enemies
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
.. 2 str (rams might)
14 / 7 .. 39 str (total)
44 / 37 .. total damage modifier
49.5 / 42.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
166.5 / 145.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
37.125 / 31.875 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
33.3 / 29.1 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
70.425 / 60.975 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
0 / 0 .. Average evil outsider damage (2d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
78.025 / 68.575 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
93.275 83.825 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
466.375 / 419.125 .. total avg damage per round
885.5 .. total main + off hand (vs evil outsiders, not including smites)
974.05 .. zeal (10%)
1071.455 tempest (10%) if stacking multiplicitavely (i.e. 1.10*1.10 = 1.21)
1062.6 (if 10%+10% =20%)


Here are my numbers for the ranger 6/ pali 14 tempest/chalice build. I kept the build as WF for comparability with the pure pali numbers that I posted, though I suppose a human version of both would be easier to build with the required charisma.

I included a couple of different numbers reflecting the different possibilities for how the zeal and tempest interact with each other. All other speed boost numbers in the table in page 1 are multiplied, so those are the numbers I've posted on page one for this build. Note, that depending on how you apply the attack speed, the pure pali will either be slightly ahead or slightly behind.

I know the comparison is a contentious issue with all you pali fans out there, and honestly the difference in dps between the two is really to close to call. Both will do exceptional damage when fighting evil outsiders.

gfunk
03-11-2009, 12:48 PM
Also, added in numbers for Warforged barbarian with frenzy I only, death frenzy only, and double frenzy (calc details here: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2086688&postcount=46 ) summary chart in first post

gfunk
03-11-2009, 02:44 PM
thx to EinarMal for the inspiration for this one.. (only changed race). Wasn't really intending to post builds in this thread much, just really trying to evaluate what is already out there but this one is fun. I think I will post a build in the rogue forums on this guy and call him the Tasmanian Devil:


halfling Strength based Rogue (acrobat)13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (khopesh)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon

7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack

2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.......... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 4 str (barb rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 43 str (total)
43 / 35 .. total damage modifier

48.5 / 40.5 .. avg normal damage (GS khopesh)
163.5 / 139.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
36.375 / 30.375 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
32.7 / 27.9 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
69.075 / 58.275 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
11.4 / 11.4 .. sneak attack training IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
118.95 / 108.15 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
134.2 123.4 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
671 / 617 .. total avg damage per round
1288 .. total main + off hand
1416.8 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1841.84 *1.3 haste boost IV


Halfling Rogue (assassin) 13/Ranger(tempest) 6/Barbarian 1
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack
2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.......... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 4 str (barb rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 43 str (total)
43 / 35 .. total damage modifier

48.5 / 40.5 .. avg normal damage (GS khopesh)
175.5 / 151.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
36.375 / 30.375 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
35.1 / 30.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
71.475 / 60.675 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
11.4 / 11.4 .. sneak attack training IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
121.35 / 110.55 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
136.6 125.8 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
683 / 629 .. total avg damage per round
1312 .. total main + off hand
1443.2 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1876.16 *1.3 haste boost IV


...vicious little guy...will need major agro mitigation enhancements/gear, but would rock with a couple radience khopeshes.

EinarMal
03-11-2009, 02:51 PM
thx to EinarMal for the inspiration for this one.. (only changed race). Wasn't really intending to post builds in this thread much, just really trying to evaluate what is already out there but this one is fun. I think I will post a build in the rogue forums on this guy and call him the Tasmanian Devil:

halfling Strength based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (khopesh)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. halfling guile
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack
12 / 12 .. sneak attack training IV
2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
............. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.............. 2 str (rams)
.............. 2 str (rage)
.............. 4 str (barb rage)
.............. 2 str (madstone 1)
.............. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 43 str (total)
71 / 63 .. total damage modifier

76.5 / 68.5 .. avg normal damage (GS khopesh)
247.5 / 223.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
57.375 / 51.375 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
49.5 / 44.7 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
106.875 / 96.075 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
130.15 / 119.35 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier III(11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
17.45 17.45 .. total weapon effects
147.6 136.8 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
738 / 684 .. total avg damage per round
1422 .. total main + off hand
1564.2 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
2033.46 *1.3 haste boost IV

...vicious little guy...will need major agro mitigation enhancements/gear, but would rock with a couple radience khopeshes.

Nice one! Would definitely be fun, fast run speed with Barbarian and Acrobat II. The Dwarf build is one I made long ago when toughness enhancements were much different than now.

The nice thing about it is you are little less sneak attack dependent so don't suck quite so bad against undead (a good FE choice) and strength based versus most Rogue builds. The downside is unless you grind out a lot of gear you take in a lot of damage. I use blur scrolls and stoneskin on my Dwarf.

Borror0
03-11-2009, 03:16 PM
Nice color usage in the OP. Maybe you should use red for Frenzies, so we can see when one is self-damaging.

gfunk
03-11-2009, 04:42 PM
Nice color usage in the OP. Maybe you should use red for Frenzies, so we can see when one is self-damaging.

done, thx

Kintro
03-14-2009, 01:11 PM
What about a halfling monk for giggles?

20 str (11 base, +6 item, +3 tome)
16 sneak attack
+5 gtr bane wraps (2d8 base)
130 swings per minute hasted, 115 normal (air), 20% over base swing speed i think?
Power Attack
2d6 elec or cold damage every 2.5 attacks


main / offhand
9 / 9 weapon
5 / 5 power attack
8 / 8 tharnes
8 / 8 halfling guile
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
............20 unbuffed str (11 bse, 6 item, 3 tome)
..............2 str (rage)
..............2 str (madstone 1)
..............2 str (madstone 2)
8 / 4.(26 str total)
46 / 42 total damage modifier

55 / 51 avg regular damage (+5 gtr bane handwraps)
122 / 113 avg crit damage (bloodstone)
46.75 / 43.35 weighted reg damage (*17/20)
12.2 / 11.3 weighted crit damage (*2/20)
58.95 / 54.65 Average unhasted damage per swing

9.975 / 9.975 .. 3d6 gtr bane (10.5*19/20)
9.975 / 9.975 .. total weapon effects
68.925 / 64.625 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 # of attacks per round
344.625 / 323.125 total avg damage per round
14 elemental monk attacks (4d6)
681.75 total main + off hand + monk attacks

818.1 (* 1.20 melee alacrity)

Dunno if I'm getting the alacrity right, my ranger gets 93 attacks a minute and my monk gets 115 in gtr wind stance.

Scalion
03-17-2009, 11:28 AM
I'd like you to crunch some numbers with a Human 2wf khopesh fighter, using +5 damage boost instead of haste boost..


Also it'd be good if you took +to hit into consideration,which none of your charts do. It would probably kill some of these builds on the hardest quests on elite difficulty.

gfunk
03-17-2009, 11:55 AM
What about a halfling monk for giggles?

Dunno if I'm getting the alacrity right, my ranger gets 93 attacks a minute and my monk gets 115 in gtr wind stance.

I'll start including monks in a bit, though i want to get some things straight about their unarmed combat. Unfortunately I don't have a lvl 16 monk, and their combat is rather unique.


I'd like you to crunch some numbers with a Human 2wf khopesh fighter, using +5 damage boost instead of haste boost..


Also it'd be good if you took +to hit into consideration,which none of your charts do. It would probably kill some of these builds on the hardest quests on elite difficulty.

I agree that the to hit bonus is very important, and its something that alot of people seem to disregard in their builds. That said, most of the builds reviewed shouldn't have problems with the standard content if they have decent gear (though Elite could be an issue for some of them).

I suppose I could include a chart with vs various benchmark AC' though it will take some time... probably a few weeks as I;m trying to just get a good comprehensive basic list of various builds first. I'm going to try and do a few builds a week over the next bit, and I do want to include the damage boost/haste boost comparison. After I've caught up a bit I'll probably drop to 1 build/week.

Scalion
03-17-2009, 12:35 PM
I'll start including monks in a bit, though i want to get some things straight about their unarmed combat. Unfortunately I don't have a lvl 16 monk, and their combat is rather unique.



I agree that the to hit bonus is very important, and its something that alot of people seem to disregard in their builds. That said, most of the builds reviewed shouldn't have problems with the standard content if they have decent gear (though Elite could be an issue for some of them).

I suppose I could include a chart with vs various benchmark AC' though it will take some time... probably a few weeks as I;m trying to just get a good comprehensive basic list of various builds first. I'm going to try and do a few builds a week over the next bit, and I do want to include the damage boost/haste boost comparison. After I've caught up a bit I'll probably drop to 1 build/week.

good to see you acknowledge +to hit as a factor... It's a major factor for me. I noticed in some meridia quests on elite I was missing enough to consider taking off power attack, and I have a +29 to hit with my power attack on and zero buffs. I don't think we had a bard, but I did have GH on me.

Most of the builds everyone calls 'overpowered' and 'uber' are actually kinda weak on the most difficult content in the game. Yeah I know a sorc that can tank the dragon on elite and heal himself, but that quest came out when the cap was like level 10. You don't see that same sorc runnin high end content with the same amount of confidence because his build is restrictive.

gfunk
03-17-2009, 04:26 PM
good to see you acknowledge +to hit as a factor... It's a major factor for me. I noticed in some meridia quests on elite I was missing enough to consider taking off power attack, and I have a +29 to hit with my power attack on and zero buffs. I don't think we had a bard, but I did have GH on me.

Most of the builds everyone calls 'overpowered' and 'uber' are actually kinda weak on the most difficult content in the game. Yeah I know a sorc that can tank the dragon on elite and heal himself, but that quest came out when the cap was like level 10. You don't see that same sorc runnin high end content with the same amount of confidence because his build is restrictive.

yeah, I don't like the builds that only have around +25 or 26 to hit.. I think they fall down on even normal end game content (though I am sure many will vehemently disagree). I consider +30 (unbuffed) to hit as a "baseline" target bonus. I wouldn't consider building a character with less than that for an (lvl 16) attack bonus.

gfunk
03-18-2009, 04:44 PM
I'd like you to crunch some numbers with a Human 2wf khopesh fighter, using +5 damage boost instead of haste boost...

Quickly did these numbers as it was a relatively easy comparison. The haste boost numbers are a clear winner. When you think about it, this is rather intuitive as the damage bonus for the build is normally around +50 fully buffed (so +5 would really add only about 10% damage). Even at current levels, you can get a +40 damage bonus (main hand) for a buffed fighter, so the additional +5 is still a rather small percent change.

here are the numbers (in damage/round with 5 main and 5 offhand attacks):
1401.0425...Human Kensai Fighter with haste boost +30%
1157.475.....Human Kensai Fighter with damage boost +5

Human Kensai Fighter with damage boost +5
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
5 / 5 damage boost +5
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 4 enh, 6 item, 3 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 50 str (total)
55 / 47 .. total damage modifier
60.5 / 52.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
211.5 / 187.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
42.35 / 36.75 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
52.875 / 46.875 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
95.225 / 83.625 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.75 / 2.75 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.8 15.8 .. total weapon effects
111.025 99.425 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
555.125 / 497.125 .. total avg damage per round
1052.25 .. total main + off hand
1157.475 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity


Human Kensai Fighter with haste boost +30%
human Kensai Fighter with haste boost +30%
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 4 enh, 6 item, 3 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 50 str (total)
50 / 42 .. total damage modifier
55.5 / 47.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
196.5 / 172.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
38.85 / 33.25 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
49.125 / 43.125 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
87.975 / 76.375 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.75 / 2.75 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.8 15.8 .. total weapon effects
103.775 92.175 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
518.875 / 460.875 .. total avg damage per round
979.75 .. total main + off hand
1077.725 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1401.0425 *1.30 haste boost

EinarMal
03-18-2009, 04:46 PM
I haven't bothered posting it but a Halfling strength based khopesh build:

Fighter 12/Rogue 7/Barbarian 1

I believe it actually comes out very well when compared to "the monster"

Sneak comes out at 4d6 +9 (Rogue) +8(Halfling) +8(VOD)=+39 per swing

Maybe I will post it up so you can link to it in a bit....

Aaxeyu
03-18-2009, 04:57 PM
I haven't bothered posting it but a Halfling strength based khopesh build:

Fighter 12/Rogue 7/Barbarian 1

I believe it actually comes out very well when compared to "the monster"

Sneak comes out at 4d6 +9 (Rogue) +8(Halfling) +8(VOD)=+39 per swing

Maybe I will post it up so you can link to it in a bit....

I did the calcs on that build the other day, I don't remember the numbers but I was dissapointed..

Not to bash the build, I just expected more from it:P

gfunk
03-18-2009, 04:59 PM
I did the calcs on that build the other day, I don't remember the numbers but I was dissapointed..


I haven't bothered posting it but a Halfling strength based khopesh build:

Fighter 12/Rogue 7/Barbarian 1

I believe it actually comes out very well when compared to "the monster"

Sneak comes out at 4d6 +9 (Rogue) +8(Halfling) +8(VOD)=+39 per swing

Maybe I will post it up so you can link to it in a bit....

I will have a look at it and post it. looks interesting.

Kintro
03-19-2009, 10:20 AM
I'll start including monks in a bit, though i want to get some things straight about their unarmed combat. Unfortunately I don't have a lvl 16 monk, and their combat is rather unique.

I have a 16 monk on Ghallanda if you need any help. For a starting point:

92 swings per minute
115 swings per minute in air stance
130 with haste
2d8 base damage

Demoyn
03-19-2009, 10:40 AM
I will have a look at it and post it. looks interesting.

Hey gfunk: if I post my battle cleric build could you help me with the relative DPS? I know it probably won't come close to these max DPS characters (it is a primary healer, afterall), but I've always wondered exactly where battle clerics line up against pure DPS characters. It's really hard figuring it out in game because I have to constantly stop fighting to toss heals around.

gfunk
03-19-2009, 10:49 AM
Hey gfunk: if I post my battle cleric build could you help me with the relative DPS? I know it probably won't come close to these max DPS characters (it is a primary healer, afterall), but I've always wondered exactly where battle clerics line up against pure DPS characters. It's really hard figuring it out in game because I have to constantly stop fighting to toss heals around.

sounds interesting. post your build and I'll add it in.

Demoyn
03-19-2009, 11:06 AM
Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.00
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Illisheel Quickfoot
Level 16 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(2 Monk \ 14 Cleric)
Hit Points: 223
Spell Points: 951
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 15
Will: 21

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 16)
Strength 14 14
Dexterity 16 18
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 16 24
Charisma 8 8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 16

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16)
Balance 3 8
Bluff -1 -1
Concentration 6 22
Diplomacy -1 -1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -1 -1
Heal 3 7
Hide 3 6
Intimidate -1 -1
Jump 2 4
Listen 3 9
Move Silently 3 6
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spot 3 7
Swim 2 2
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 13 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning IV
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile III
Enhancement: Halfling Guile IV
Enhancement: Halfling Luck I (Fortitude)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck I (Reflex)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck II (Reflex)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck III (Reflex)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck I (Will)
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Cleansing I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand Mastery II




I'm sure you're already aware, but I'll mention anyway that for DPS I'm constantly using divine might (+4) and divine power (full attack rate). For comparison to the level 20 builds, he'll have greater two-weapon fighting at 18 and his divine might will give the maximum bonus (can't remember if it caps at +5 or +6).

EDIT: Negated since I see you're calculating with +4 strength tomes already.

SECOND EDIT: You can assume a bloodstone, but I'll obviously not want to be double madstoned.

Gunga
03-19-2009, 11:44 AM
GFunk is the DPS man. I say you teach us how to use your program and charge us. I'll pay...very nice info here.

gfunk
03-19-2009, 02:30 PM
Illisheel Quickfoot
Level 16 Lawful Good Halfling Male

I'm sure you're already aware, but I'll mention anyway that for DPS I'm constantly using divine might (+4) and divine power (full attack rate). For comparison to the level 20 builds, he'll have greater two-weapon fighting at 18 and his divine might will give the maximum bonus (can't remember if it caps at +5 or +6).

EDIT: Negated since I see you're calculating with +4 strength tomes already.

SECOND EDIT: You can assume a bloodstone, but I'll obviously not want to be double madstoned.

here you are, looks pretty good for a dps'r that basically has full cleric abilities.

Battle cleric with Khopesh(18cleric/2monk)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
0 / 0 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
3 / 3 .. divine favor (spell)
.......... .. 24 unbuffed str (14 bse, 0lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
8 / 4 .. 26 str (total)
28 / 24 .. total damage modifier
33.5 / 29.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
118.5 / 106.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
25.125 / 22.125 .. weighted reg damage (*14520)
23.7 / 21.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
7.6 / 7.6 halfling guile IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
64.025 / 58.625 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
79.275 73.875 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
396.375 / 369.375 .. total avg damage per round
765.75 .. total main + off hand

Battle cleric with Khopesh(18cleric/2monk) without sneak attack
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
5 / 5 .. power attack
0 / 0 .. cleric divine might III (lvl 15)
3 / 3 .. divine favor (spell)
.......... .. 24 unbuffed str (14 bse, 0lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
8 / 4 .. 26 str (total)
28 / 24 .. total damage modifier
33.5 / 29.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
118.5 / 106.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
25.125 / 22.125 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
23.7 / 21.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
56.425 / 51.025 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
71.675 66.275 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
358.375 / 331.375 .. total avg damage per round
689.75 .. total main + off hand





** note that i have not included tharnes in the non-sneak attack numbers. I mention this because in the chart in page 1 I have used the goggles as standard equipment for non situational builds. To provide some comparaiblity on page 1 i have added that tharnes back in (but not the halfling guile)

Demoyn
03-19-2009, 02:58 PM
I'm sorry, I said divine might. I meant divine favor, but the numbers should still end up the same. I'm actually pretty happy with that number! Now just to get the items to boost my armor class into the 60s and I'll be complete.

gfunk
03-19-2009, 03:19 PM
I'm sorry, I said divine might. I meant divine favor, but the numbers should still end up the same. I'm actually pretty happy with that number! Now just to get the items to boost my armor class into the 60s and I'll be complete.

hmm, i didnt notice that you didnt have it in your enhancement list.. you might consider taking some divine might enhancements as they are alot cheaper than halfling guile. note that i have seperately included +3 for divine favor already, so these numbers will be optimistic if you can't fit divine might in.

I should note that in the non-sneak attack numbers here I took out the tharnes goggles effect(in addition to halfling guile), however the goggles are included as standard non-situational gear in the chart from page 1 (so all builds are considered to have them).

There was some critizism when I had initially not included them in my calculations for dps, but the side effect of including them is that every number becomes situational. For the purpose of comparability on the chart I will add them back in to the "non-sneak attack" numbers (only leaving out guile). This has the effect of giving some sense of how important the build portion of the dps is and how it compares with the other builds

sigh... its always gear that gives you problems when trying to compare these things.

Kintro
03-19-2009, 05:00 PM
hmm, i didnt notice that you didnt have it in your enhancement list.. you might consider taking some divine might enhancements as they are alot cheaper than halfling guile. note that i have seperately included +3 for divine favor already, so these numbers will be optimistic if you can't fit divine might in.


He doesn't have the 14/16/18 base charisma to get them.

Scalion
03-19-2009, 05:01 PM
Quickly did these numbers as it was a relatively easy comparison. The haste boost numbers are a clear winner. When you think about it, this is rather intuitive as the damage bonus for the build is normally around +50 fully buffed (so +5 would really add only about 10% damage). Even at current levels, you can get a +40 damage bonus (main hand) for a buffed fighter, so the additional +5 is still a rather small percent change.

here are the numbers (in damage/round with 5 main and 5 offhand attacks):
1401.0425...Human Kensai Fighter with haste boost +30%
1157.475.....Human Kensai Fighter with damage boost +5

Human Kensai Fighter with damage boost +5
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
5 / 5 damage boost +5
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 4 enh, 6 item, 3 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 50 str (total)
55 / 47 .. total damage modifier
60.5 / 52.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
211.5 / 187.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
42.35 / 36.75 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
52.875 / 46.875 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
95.225 / 83.625 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.75 / 2.75 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.8 15.8 .. total weapon effects
111.025 99.425 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
555.125 / 497.125 .. total avg damage per round
1052.25 .. total main + off hand
1157.475 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity


Human Kensai Fighter with haste boost +30%
human Kensai Fighter with haste boost +30%
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 4 enh, 6 item, 3 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 50 str (total)
50 / 42 .. total damage modifier
55.5 / 47.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
196.5 / 172.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
38.85 / 33.25 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
49.125 / 43.125 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
87.975 / 76.375 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.75 / 2.75 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.8 15.8 .. total weapon effects
103.775 92.175 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
518.875 / 460.875 .. total avg damage per round
979.75 .. total main + off hand
1077.725 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1401.0425 *1.30 haste boost



Damage boost:
111.025 99.425 .. base + weapon effects

Haste boost:
103.775 92.175 .. base + weapon effects




Ok... correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the only reason haste boost beats attack boost is after taking into account weapon effect damage. I think that's worth mentioning.

Eudimio
03-19-2009, 05:08 PM
Damage boost:
111.025 99.425 .. base + weapon effects

Haste boost:
103.775 92.175 .. base + weapon effects




Ok... correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the only reason haste boost beats attack boost is after taking into account weapon effect damage. I think that's worth mentioning.

Okay, you are wrong. Haste boost wins because you get 30% more attacks.

gfunk
03-19-2009, 05:18 PM
Damage boost:
111.025 99.425 .. base + weapon effects

Haste boost:
103.775 92.175 .. base + weapon effects




Ok... correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the only reason haste boost beats attack boost is after taking into account weapon effect damage. I think that's worth mentioning.

just to clarify, the superiority of haste boost is not dependant on weapon effects. Here are the numbers with no effects added in:

here are the numbers (in damage/round with 5 main and 5 offhand attacks):
1175.1025...Human Kensai Fighter with haste boost +30%
983.675.......Human Kensai Fighter with damage boost +5

The haste boost is approximately 20% better than damage boost. This is somewhat intuitive considering that the damage modifier for the fighters below is around +50, so the extra +5 is only a difference of 10%. Even an unbuffed fighter with a +30 damage modifier will do much better with haste boost.

If you only had around +12 or so to damage, you would do OK with damage boost (relatvie to haste boost for that build), but I can't imagine that anyone would want to make a fighter with such a poor damage modifier.

Human Kensai Fighter with damage boost +5
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
5 / 5 damage boost +5
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 4 enh, 6 item, 3 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 50 str (total)
55 / 47 .. total damage modifier

60.5 / 52.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
211.5 / 187.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
42.35 / 36.75 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
52.875 / 46.875 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
95.225 / 83.625 .. Average unhasted damage per swing


95.225 83.625 .. base + weapon effects (0)

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
476.125 / 418.125 .. total avg damage per round
894.25 .. total main + off hand
983.675 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

human Kensai Fighter with haste boost +30%
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 4 enh, 6 item, 3 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 50 str (total)
50 / 42 .. total damage modifier

55.5 / 47.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
196.5 / 172.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
38.85 / 33.25 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
49.125 / 43.125 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
87.975 / 76.375 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

87.975 76.375 .. base + weapon effects (0)

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
439.875 / 381.875 .. total avg damage per round
821.75 .. total main + off hand
903.925 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1175.1025 *1.30 haste boost

gfunk
03-19-2009, 05:20 PM
He doesn't have the 14/16/18 base charisma to get them.

good catch, ill put in some new numbers, and maybe a new build that does have the charisma.

BlackSteel
03-19-2009, 05:42 PM
***edit***Gfunk beat me to it, oh well********

nope, the only thing u just looked at is the damage difference between using damage boost and not using damage boost

if u want to see the effects between the boosts w/o weapon effects simply do this

103.775 92.175 x 1.3 for....... 135 / 120

135/120 haste
vs
111/99 for damage boost

weapon effects will be enhanced more with the haste boost tho

Scalion
03-19-2009, 07:03 PM
One last thing with Damage boost vs. haste boost.

Haste boost basically boosts your overall dps by a percentage, 30% I would guess, since it's a 30% boost.

Damage boost boosts your overall dps by a set amount, X amount of added damage, regardless of what your dps is without the boost.



So for example (I know the math might be wrong but the point is illustrated) if your dps was 100, a haste boost would boost your damage to 130, and lets say hypothetically that damage boost boosted your dps to 125. The haste boost added 30 to your overall damage output, but the attack boost only adds 25.

If your dps dropped down to 50 because you were without all of the same buffs, or for any other reason, a haste boost would only increase your dps to 65 because it's a percentage based ability, while the damage boost would increase your dps to 75 because it adds an extra 25 dps regardless. So there are circumstances where the damage boost wins out.


Either way, I have both on my fighter, I do appreciate the time you guys took to run these numbers, and I will adjust my playstyle accordingly.

Demoyn
03-19-2009, 08:14 PM
good catch, ill put in some new numbers, and maybe a new build that does have the charisma.

You can just trust me when I say that there's no way to feasibly get another 10 charisma without gimping the character (or using +3 tomes in almost every stat).

gfunk
03-19-2009, 09:32 PM
You can just trust me when I say that there's no way to feasibly get another 10 charisma without gimping the character (or using +3 tomes in almost every stat).

well, personally I consider it quite reasonable to plan for +3 tomes in every stat. Most of my alts who have been around for greater than a year have either +2s or +3s in every stat. I expect that mod 9 will make +3's as common as +2s and +4s as common as +3's.

Every build I make I like to plan for what they will ultimately have for stats and equipment, no matter what the time frame required to get those items/tomes. Its more of a power-gamer attitude, however so is planning for max dps or at least max dps relative to benefits given up elsewhere (which is partially the point of the thread).

I do expect that it would be difficult to attain the +10 to charisma that you have stated, however I am now intruiged enough with the build that I will give it a bit more thought.

EinarMal
03-20-2009, 07:32 AM
I posted the halfling Kensai Rogue build (Fighter 12/Rogue 7/Barbarian 1)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=176374

Desteria
03-22-2009, 07:13 AM
A question for your pally is madstone vs. divine favor. It will probably be unlikely that most paladins will have both because of duration of divine favor only being 2 min. Zeal on the other hand will be 5 min duration at level 20 and would be workable with madstone. Note: both zeal and divine favor are extended here.

A godo dps pally shoudl have Single madestone and DF really, they MIGHT some times pull off dubble then lose DF fro a few seconds......

I typicaly cast DF last then click a set of boots and start fighting i give the boots about 10 seocnds to proc a seoconed madstoen before i take them off, because losing DF for to long Sucks!!!!,

vyvy3369
03-22-2009, 06:01 PM
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet are the force rituals - an extra 1 damage per swing should create a slight increase for TWF over THF.

gfunk
03-23-2009, 11:16 AM
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet are the force rituals - an extra 1 damage per swing should create a slight increase for TWF over THF.


Very good point, I totally forgot about the rituals. It also favors the builds with greater number of attacks. The difference is slight, but perhaps I should work it in somewhere..

gfunk
03-23-2009, 11:21 AM
He doesn't have the 14/16/18 base charisma to get them.

updated numbers, taking out divine might

Borror0
03-24-2009, 03:59 PM
/snip
You calculated Prayer as if it stacked with Divine Favor. It does not.

gfunk
03-24-2009, 04:10 PM
You calculated Prayer as if it stacked with Divine Favor. It does not.

hmm.. didn't know that. Typical, as i've never rolled a pali and ive never really melee'd (much) with my cleric. Ill fix that error, thx.

Xyfiel
04-02-2009, 12:09 AM
I know this is for twf, but can you do the math on a Human Rogue13/Monk1/Fighter6 acrobat/kensai using staff?

Factor in the following:
34 str (single madstone)
Power Attack
Weapon Spec+enhancement
Wind Stance
Tharnes
Full sneak attack training
30% haste boost
84 attacks/min


I think that is all and correct.

Demoyn
04-03-2009, 09:55 AM
I know this is for twf, but can you do the math on a Human Rogue13/Monk1/Fighter6 acrobat/kensai using staff?

Factor in the following:
34 str (single madstone)
Power Attack
Weapon Spec+enhancement
Wind Stance
Tharnes
Full sneak attack training
30% haste boost
84 attacks/min


I think that is all and correct.

Didn't Tolerrant issue a statement saying that multiple PrEs weren't going to be possible?

Borror0
04-03-2009, 10:01 AM
Didn't Tolerrant issue a statement saying that multiple PrEs weren't going to be possible?
Do you mean like all the Tempest Kensai and Tempest KotC being built and the few Tempest Acrobats I know?

Demoyn
04-03-2009, 11:05 AM
Do you mean like all the Tempest Kensai and Tempest KotC being built and the few Tempest Acrobats I know?

Well it would apply to them also, yes (if I'm correct in my memory). It doesn't make much sense to create a bunch of impossible builds.

Borror0
04-03-2009, 11:06 AM
Well it would apply to them also, yes (if I'm correct in my memory). It doesn't make much sense to create a bunch of impossible builds.
I was being sarcastic. Multiple PrE builds already exist in-game.

Gunga
04-03-2009, 11:17 AM
You can just trust me when I say that there's no way to feasibly get another 10 charisma without gimping the character (or using +3 tomes in almost every stat).

If you're mad as hell and are not going to take it anymore, why are you on the forums?

Demoyn
04-03-2009, 02:58 PM
I was being sarcastic. Multiple PrE builds already exist in-game.

Yeah, but I thought they said something about mod 9 not having multiple PrEs. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Demoyn
04-03-2009, 03:00 PM
If you're mad as hell and are not going to take it anymore, why are you on the forums?

Just so stupid fanbois will make inane comments like yours.

Borror0
04-03-2009, 08:24 PM
I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
You are. I know multiple Warchanter Tempest build, currently.

Demoyn
04-05-2009, 01:50 AM
You are. I know multiple Warchanter Tempest build, currently.

I'm not talking about currently, though. I'm talking about a change after mod 9 comes out.

Borror0
04-05-2009, 01:58 AM
I'm not talking about currently, though. I'm talking about a change after mod 9 comes out.
Well, you are wrong. If you don't believe me then try to dig up a quote but it'll be a waste of time.

Demoyn
04-07-2009, 11:04 AM
Well, you are wrong. If you don't believe me then try to dig up a quote but it'll be a waste of time.

"Class specialties now indicate that you can only take a single specialty from a particular class."

This is what I was thinking of, but obviously I was off a bit on my memory.

TrenchcoatJesus
04-08-2009, 02:59 PM
Excellent thread, a few questions:

1) I noticed you add Halfling Guile and Tharne's into base damage modifier, and you multiply that modifier (plus avg damage) for crits. Unless I am mistaken, sneak attack damage (including guile and tharne's) is never multiplied for a crit, unless there is an improper mechanic somewhere. This would definitely skew your numbers if I am correct.

2) You mentioned that monk unarmed you need better numbers for, and I'd agree. Given the current max possible DPS belonging to rogues (situationally) I would think unarmed could actually provide a very high DPS with enough levels of rogue taken. Specifically, with the greater number of attacks, how well could a halfling guilde IV rogue 19/monk 1 deal in terms of damage?

I'm very impressed with your work and glad you started this thread. Even if your work is not entirely correct or there are unseen mechanics present that make a direct translation from your numbers to the game impossible, you're comparing all the builds on an even playing field, making comparison actually worthwhile. Simply put, even if we'd never realistically see these numbers in game, there'd be a similar translation in terms of what is likely the highest to lowest possible for sustained melee twf dps.

gfunk
04-08-2009, 03:53 PM
Excellent thread, a few questions:

1) I noticed you add Halfling Guile and Tharne's into base damage modifier, and you multiply that modifier (plus avg damage) for crits. Unless I am mistaken, sneak attack damage (including guile and tharne's) is never multiplied for a crit, unless there is an improper mechanic somewhere. This would definitely skew your numbers if I am correct.

2) You mentioned that monk unarmed you need better numbers for, and I'd agree. Given the current max possible DPS belonging to rogues (situationally) I would think unarmed could actually provide a very high DPS with enough levels of rogue taken. Specifically, with the greater number of attacks, how well could a halfling guilde IV rogue 19/monk 1 deal in terms of damage?

I'm very impressed with your work and glad you started this thread. Even if your work is not entirely correct or there are unseen mechanics present that make a direct translation from your numbers to the game impossible, you're comparing all the builds on an even playing field, making comparison actually worthwhile. Simply put, even if we'd never realistically see these numbers in game, there'd be a similar translation in terms of what is likely the highest to lowest possible for sustained melee twf dps.

hmm, well I have seen were people have posted that it doesn't multiply. I always assumed it did because my drow dex rogue has hit for up to 118 points of damage with a rapier (1st number only, not including backstabbing or other extra numbers). I did this with an offhand backstabbing (+8) weapon, and a main hand greensteel rapier (I often watch the damage numbers go by to see if they jibe with my calculations)

There would be no other way to get to this number as I only have:

6 (str bonus when unraged)
13(max hit with a +5 greensteel rapier)
2 (drow rapier enhancements)
4 (assassin II crit damage)
6 (bloodstone)
7 (inspire heroics.. or at least im assuming i had max songs.. could have been raged or had prayer)
12 (sneak attack training IV)
8 (offhand backstabbing weapon)
59 * 2 = 118

If sneak attack didnt multiply then the max I could hit for would be (39*2)+20=98... though I suppose the number could get up to 102 if I had rage and prayer as well. (I only recently picked up madstone boots on my rogue, and do not currently have power attack though i probably will pick it up soon). I don't see how i could have attained that high of a number of sneak attack did not multiply.

As it has been called into question, I will have to confirm it by doing some testing in game. If I have calculated it incorrectly then I will undertake the onerous task of recalculating my previous numbers.

TrenchcoatJesus
04-08-2009, 04:19 PM
Yes, as per D&D rules and common sense, it *shouldn't* multiply; although I have not tested it in-game to be sure. Using a level 1 rogue with level I SA Training should be easy enough to test. Assuming 10 Strength and a club (1d6) your crits would be either 2-12 + 4-9 or 8-18 + 1-6. I'll leave the testing up to you, but I am curious if sneak attack (extra) damage is being multiplied in criticals.

What sort of data/testing would you need to par unarmed down to a relative number of attacks per round?

-TrenchcoatJesus

gfunk
04-08-2009, 04:25 PM
What sort of data/testing would you need to par unarmed down to a relative number of attacks per round?

-TrenchcoatJesus

well, unarmed has been a whole different thing because it operates more like THF then TWF. What i would have been looking for is accurate data as to how long a round takes for unarmed combat vs. a twf round, and what the implied speed difference was.

That may be uneccesary now as with the Mod 9 release notes, TWF feats are supposed to work on unarmed combat so I would think that would mean the same number of attacks as when two weapon fighting well armed. As long as people report that it is working on laminia, then i guess i'll be able to apply the same methodology as I did with armed combat.

TrenchcoatJesus
04-08-2009, 05:24 PM
Since I don't have the appropriate data, I thought I'd take a crack at seeing if unarmed would benefit the pure halfling rogue or not. Here's what I got:


See Original post for Summary Chart with Weapon effects (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2081540&postcount=1)
Halfling dps rogue
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
15 / 15 .. sneak attack training V?
8 8 halfling guild IV
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
13 / 6 .. 37 str (total)
62 / 55 .. total damage modifier
67.5 / 60.5 .. avg crit damage (GS Khopesh)
220.5 / 199.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
50.625 / 45.375 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
44.1 / 39.9 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
94.725 / 85.275 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
33.25 / 33.25 .. Average backstabbing damage (10d6)
127.975 / 118.525 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
143.225 133.775 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
716.125 / 668.875 .. total avg damage per round
1385 .. total main + off hand
1800.5 *1.3 haste boost IV


Keeping in mind unarmed retains full strength bonus on "off hand" strikes:

Halfling "Hin Fist" dps rogue (Unarmed, 19 Rogue/1 Monk)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
15 / 15 .. sneak attack training V?
8 8 halfling guile IV
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
13 / 13 .. 37 str (total)
62 / 62 .. total damage modifier
65.5 / 65.5 .. avg weapon damage (+5 handwraps, 1d6 base)
143 / 143 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
55.675 / 55.675 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
14.3 / 14.3 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
69.975 / 69.975 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
33.25 / 33.25 .. Average backstabbing damage (10d6)
103.225 / 103.225 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy wraps (7*19/20)
6.65 6.65 .. total weapon effects
109.875 109.875 .. base + weapon effects

x / x .. # of attacks per round
y / y .. total avg damage per round

Here we have our unknowns. For the sake of argument, I figured I'd see how many more attacks per round the unarmed rogue would need to equal the pure rogue using khopeshes. Keeping in mind Wind Stance I for 2.5% insight attack speed,

1385 .. total main + off hand / 1.025 = 1351.220

Or put simply, 1351.220 / 109.875 = 12.30 So there must be a relative difference between attack animations such that in the time the pure rogue swings his khopeshes 5 times each, the unarmed user must attack 12.3 times. That's a 23% attack rate increase.

I sincerely doubt the unarmed attack chain goes off 23% faster *base* than the TWF Khopesh user, but that is a relatively small margin considering the difference in critical properties, not to mention GS properties. This also ignores the damage from monk strikes, though being 1st level would not be a huge factor in the long run (+4 strike of the enduring I on a 6 second cooldown, or other 1d6 elemental and thus situational strikes).

I'd be very interested in seeing tests done to figure out exactly what the ratio of attacks/animations is for unarmed compared to TWF. I have to doubt that in current content a halfling 19 rogue/monk 1 using their fists would outdps the same using GS Khopeshes, but with these enigmatic rings and other unarmed fixes around the corner, who knows?

-TrenchcoatJesus

gfunk
04-09-2009, 12:13 PM
Excellent thread, a few questions:

1) I noticed you add Halfling Guile and Tharne's into base damage modifier, and you multiply that modifier (plus avg damage) for crits. Unless I am mistaken, sneak attack damage (including guile and tharne's) is never multiplied for a crit, unless there is an improper mechanic somewhere. This would definitely skew your numbers if I am correct..

ok, none of the sneak attack numbers get multiplied on crits.. tested it out last night... oops.
Ive fixed most of them in the summary table (though it needs a bit of reordering now), I will repost the calculations when i get that cleaned up.

gfunk
04-17-2009, 05:14 PM
reference post only

Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II khopeshes
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
51.5 / 41.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
184.5 / 154.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
36.05 / 29.05 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
46.125 / 38.625 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
89.775 / 75.275 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.75 / 2.75 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.8 15.8 .. total weapon effects

105.575 91.075 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
527.875 / 455.375 .. total avg damage per round
983.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 344.1
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 373.6
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 452.3

Human Kensai Fighter with deathnips
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
49.5 / 39.5 .. avg regular damage (deathnip)
246 / 206 .. avg crit damage (+12 dmg to critsw/ kensai+deathnip)
34.65 / 27.65 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
61.5 / 51.5 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
103.75 / 86.75 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

9.975 / 9.975 .. 3d6 maiming
113.725 96.725 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
568.625 / 483.625 .. total avg damage per round
1052.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 368.3
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 399.9
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 484.0

Human Kensai Fighter with bereavements
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
50.5 / 40.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
193.5 / 163.5 .. avg crit damage (+14 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bereavement)
40.4 / 32.4 .. weighted reg damage (*16/20)
29.025 / 24.525 .. weighted crit damage (*3/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
77.025 / 64.525 .. Average unhasted damage per swing


77.025 64.525 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
385.125 / 322.625 .. total avg damage per round
707.75 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 247.7
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 268.9
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 325.6

Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II rapiers
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
50.5 / 40.5 .. avg regular damage (GS rapiers)
121 / 101 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
30.3 / 24.3 .. weighted reg damage (*12/20)
42.35 / 35.35 .. weighted crit damage (*7/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
80.25 / 67.25 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.925 / 1.925 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (11*7/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.975 14.975 .. total weapon effects

95.225 82.225 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
476.125 / 411.125 .. total avg damage per round
887.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 310.5
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 337.2
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 408.1

Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II longswords
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
51.5 / 41.5 .. avg regular damage (GS longsword)
123 / 103 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
36.05 / 29.05 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
30.75 / 25.75 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
74.4 / 62.4 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.375 / 1.375 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.425 14.425 .. total weapon effects

88.825 76.825 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
444.125 / 384.125 .. total avg damage per round
828.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 289.9
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 314.7
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 381.0
Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II heavy picks
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
51.5 / 41.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
246 / 206 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
41.2 / 33.2 .. weighted reg damage (*16/20)
36.9 / 30.9 .. weighted crit damage (*3/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
85.7 / 71.7 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.475 / 2.475 .. 3d10 acid on crit tier II (11*3/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.525 15.525 .. total weapon effects

101.225 87.225 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
506.125 / 436.125 .. total avg damage per round
942.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 329.8
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 358.1
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 433.4

Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II kukris
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
49.5 / 39.5 .. avg regular damage (GS rapiers)
119 / 99 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
29.7 / 23.7 .. weighted reg damage (*12/20)
41.65 / 34.65 .. weighted crit damage (*7/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
78.95 / 65.95 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.925 / 1.925 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (11*7/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.975 14.975 .. total weapon effects

93.925 80.925 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
469.625 / 404.625 .. total avg damage per round
874.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 306.0
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 332.2
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 402.2

Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II bastard swords
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
55 / 45 .. avg regular damage (GS longsword)
130 / 110 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
38.5 / 31.5 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
32.5 / 27.5 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
78.6 / 66.6 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.375 / 1.375 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.425 14.425 .. total weapon effects

93.025 81.025 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
465.125 / 405.125 .. total avg damage per round
870.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 304.6
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 330.7
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 400.3

gfunk
04-17-2009, 05:15 PM
Now that Cforce has reached some conclusions regarding attack speed, I have decided to use his information to start including DPS (damage per second) numbers for various builds. As I pulled a bereavement on my fighter the other day and was curious about how it fit in, I decided to start looking at the dps for a variety of weapons vs various levels of fortification. I'll update the various builds in the first post with DPS numbers as well, but for now i was sidetracked with the different weapons:

DPS chart vs. mobs with 0% fortification (calculations in previous post)
DPS .. damage/round
268.9 .. 707.8 .. Human Kensai Fighter with bereavements
314.7 .. 828.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II longswords
330.7 .. 870.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II bastard swords
332.2 .. 874.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II kukris
337.2 .. 887.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II rapiers
358.1 .. 942.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II heavy picks
373.6 .. 983.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II khopeshes
399.9 .. 1052.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with deathnips
* DPS is calculated with fighter weapon alacrity and haste, but does not include haste boosts
**mineral II weapons are calculated with a non-dps 3rd tier

Below is chart with same weapons, but vs a mob with 50% fortification
DPS .. damage/round
216.6 .. 570.0 .. Human Kensai Fighter with bereavements
268.7 .. 707.1 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II longswords
274.9 .. 723.4 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II kukris
279.2 .. 734.6 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II rapiers
283.0 .. 744.8 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II bastard swords
292.5 .. 769.6 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II heavy picks
299.2 .. 787.4 .. Human Kensai Fighter with deathnips
300.8 .. 791.5 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II khopeshes

Below is chart with same weapons, but vs a mob with 100% fortification (weapon effects still work on crit rolls, hence the difference for things like longswords and khopeshes which have the same base damage)
DPS .. damage/round
164.3 .. 432.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with bereavements
198.6 .. 522.5 .. Human Kensai Fighter with deathnips
217.6 .. 572.5 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II kukris
221.2 .. 582.0 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II rapiers
222.7 .. 586.0 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II longswords
226.9 .. 597.0 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II heavy picks
227.9 .. 599.8 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II khopeshes
235.3 .. 619.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II bastard swords

** edit, note that the differences for the power of the different weapons will be more skewed for kensai fighters then for classes which don't have improvements to crit damage and range. On other classes, the differences would be less.

Demoyn
04-17-2009, 09:14 PM
Were you ever able to improve my monk/cleric build? If so, is there anything that can be improved after the stats and classes are already chosen? Mind you, I think the build is doing great (exceptional, actually), but I'm always looking for more power *Tim Allen grunt*.

ForwardWu
04-20-2009, 12:19 AM
thx for the hard work, gfunk.

is it possible to include dex based rogue build like the one suggested by Impaqt?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175391

I know it is no way a good dps compare to a str based build, yet its good to see how much dps you are actually giving up to focus on the defense side...thx

from the dps chart, i noticed that dps of a dex based 20 ranger is about 360 vs favor, while a str based exploiter build or monster is about 400. Seems an ac focused build (18/1/1 dex based) will be only giving up 10% of dps to boost the ac....

its good to see hows its the case for rogue based toon

also fun to see that no build can break the 450 dps line without using short boosts (smite, haste boost, etc), except for the halfing rogue build. thats why i am so interested to see if this build become ac focus how much dps will be lost....

ForwardWu
04-20-2009, 12:52 AM
I do the calc with a pocket calc-tor...hope it is correct..

halfling dex based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Monk 1 (rapier)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon

7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack

2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
.......... .. 20 unbuffed str (11 base, 6 item, 3 tome)
.......... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
9 / 4 .. 28 str (total)
35 / 30 .. total damage modifier

39.5 / 34.5 .. avg normal damage (gs rapier)
91 / 81 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
25.675 / 22.425.. weighted reg damage (*13/20)
27.3 / 24.3 .. weighted crit damage (*6/20)
52.975 / 46.725.. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
11.4 / 11.4 .. sneak attack training IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
102.85 / 96.6.. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.65 / 1.65 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (5.5*6/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.7 14.7 .. total weapon effects
117.55 111.3.. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
587.75 / 556.5.. total avg damage per round
1144.25.. total main + off hand
1258.68.. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1636 *1.3 haste boost IV

ForwardWu
04-20-2009, 01:34 AM
another take on dex based exploiter build

elf dex based Ranger 18/Rogue 1/Monk 1 (rapier), vs favor enemy and sneak attack
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon

7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack

2 / 2 rams might
12 / 12 favored enemy
2 / 2 racial
.......... .. 20 unbuffed str (11 base, 6 item, 3 tome)
.......... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
9 / 4 .. 28 str (total)
43 / 38 .. total damage modifier

47.5 / 42.5 ..avg normal damage (gs rapier)
107 / 97 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
30.875 / 27.625.. weighted reg damage (*13/20)
32.1 / 29.1.. weighted crit damage (*6/20)
62.975 / 56.725.. Average unhasted damage per swing
3.325 / 3.325.. Average backstabbing damage (1d6)
2.85 / 2.85.. sneak attack training I
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)

76.75 / 70.5.. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.65 / 1.65 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (5.5*6/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.7 / 14.7 .. total weapon effects
91.45 / 85.2.. base + weapon effects

6 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
548.7 / 426.. total avg damage per round
974.7.. total main + off hand
1072.17.. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1232.9955 *1.15 haste boost I

gfunk
04-20-2009, 11:34 AM
Were you ever able to improve my monk/cleric build? If so, is there anything that can be improved after the stats and classes are already chosen? Mind you, I think the build is doing great (exceptional, actually), but I'm always looking for more power *Tim Allen grunt*.

well, only way to get serious extra dps for the cleric build is to get the charisma for divine might, but your willingness to accept the trade-offs just depends on what sort of cleric you play. You could start at:
str 12
dex 16
con 12
int 8
wis 16
cha 14
(2 less str and 2 less con then your build)

and then you would have access to divine might II with a +2 tome, and III with a +4 tome, but you would give up +1 to hit, and 20 hp (at lvl 20).

dps (hasted)..damage/round
.......268.01...765.75...18cleric/2monk without divine might
.......282.19...806.25...18cleric/2monkwith divine might II
.......291.64...833.25...18cleric/2monk with divine might III

18cleric/2monk without divine might
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
0 / 0 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
3 / 3 .. divine favor (spell)
.......... .. 24 unbuffed str (14 bse, 0lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
8 / 4 .. 26 str (total)
28 / 24 .. total damage modifier

33.5 / 29.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
118.5 / 106.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
25.125 / 22.125 .. weighted reg damage (*14520)
23.7 / 21.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
64.025 / 58.625 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
79.275 73.875 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
396.375 / 369.375 .. total avg damage per round
765.75 .. total main + off hand
268.01 (dps)




18cleric/2monkwith divine might II
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
0 / 0 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
4 / 4 .. cleric divine might II (lvl 15)
3 / 3 .. divine favor (spell)
.......... .. 22 unbuffed str (12 bse, 0lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
7 / 3 .. 24 str (total)
31 / 27 .. total damage modifier

36.5 / 32.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
127.5 / 115.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
27.375 / 24.375 .. weighted reg damage (*14520)
25.5 / 23.1 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
68.075 / 62.675 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
83.325 77.925 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
416.625 / 389.625 .. total avg damage per round
806.25 .. total main + off hand
282.19 (dps)




18cleric/2monk with divine might III
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
0 / 0 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
6 / 6 .. cleric divine might III (lvl 15)
3 / 3 .. divine favor (spell)
.......... .. 22 unbuffed str (12 bse, 0lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
7 / 3 .. 24 str (total)
33 / 29 .. total damage modifier

38.5 / 34.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
133.5 / 121.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
28.875 / 25.875 .. weighted reg damage (*14520)
26.7 / 24.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
70.775 / 65.375 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
86.025 80.625 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
430.125 / 403.125 .. total avg damage per round
833.25 .. total main + off hand
291.64 (dps)

gfunk
04-20-2009, 11:46 AM
I do the calc with a pocket calc-tor...hope it is correct..

halfling dex based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Monk 1 (rapier)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon

7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack

2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
.......... .. 20 unbuffed str (11 base, 6 item, 3 tome)
.......... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
9 / 4 .. 28 str (total)
35 / 30 .. total damage modifier

39.5 / 34.5 .. avg normal damage (gs rapier)
91 / 81 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
25.675 / 22.425.. weighted reg damage (*13/20)
27.3 / 24.3 .. weighted crit damage (*6/20)
52.975 / 46.725.. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
11.4 / 11.4 .. sneak attack training IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
102.85 / 96.6.. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.65 / 1.65 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (5.5*6/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.7 14.7 .. total weapon effects
117.55 111.3.. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
587.75 / 556.5.. total avg damage per round
1144.25.. total main + off hand
1258.68.. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1636 *1.3 haste boost IV

You have no errors that I can find. Nice work. You could get a bit more damage by going assassin II with your rogue levels (+4 to crits).
The DPS the way you have it calculated is:

434.8 (hasted)
526.4 (hasted + boosted)

If you went assassin II (1285.1/1670.6) it would be

443.9 (hasted)
537.4 (hasted + boosted)

jakeelala
04-20-2009, 12:02 PM
You have no errors that I can find. Nice work. You could get a bit more damage by going assassin II with your rogue levels (+4 to crits).
The DPS the way you have it calculated is:

434.8 (hasted)
526.4 (hasted + boosted)

If you went assassin II (1285.1/1670.6) it would be

443.9 (hasted)
537.4 (hasted + boosted)

I don't understand this calculation...

It's assuming 100% sneak attack damage? how is that relevant, who ever gets 100% sneak attack damage?

I mean the closest thing you could get to that would be using dual radiance rapiers I suppose, but this calc has "1d4 slicing duel shard" in it, which is a MinII Calc.

I just don't understand how this is a relevant damage calc when it's only applicable for very short bursts (i dont even mean clickies or abilities, I mean getting backstab damage).

Am I missing something?

gfunk
04-20-2009, 12:11 PM
I don't understand this calculation...

It's assuming 100% sneak attack damage? how is that relevant, who ever gets 100% sneak attack damage?

I mean the closest thing you could get to that would be using dual radiance rapiers I suppose, but this calc has "1d4 slicing duel shard" in it, which is a MinII Calc.

I just don't understand how this is a relevant damage calc when it's only applicable for very short bursts (i dont even mean clickies or abilities, I mean getting backstab damage).

Am I missing something?

it is a point of reference. If you read the thread you would see that I have posted numbers for various builds with and without sneak attack. all assumptions are clearly stated.

Nick_RC
04-21-2009, 11:53 PM
Just wanted to stop by and say love thi thread I refer to it as a baseline often.

Quick note: Might wanna add Situational 50 to the double frenzy barb for damage boost. Hell everything seems to be boosted may as well inclyde the crappy barb damage boost all things being equal:D

Milamber69
04-21-2009, 11:58 PM
Just wanted to stop by and say love thi thread I refer to it as a baseline often.

Quick note: Might wanna add Situational 50 to the double frenzy barb for damage boost. Hell everything seems to be boosted may as well inclyde the crappy barb damage boost all things being equal:D

Go to sleep!

gfunk
04-22-2009, 11:14 AM
Just wanted to stop by and say love thi thread I refer to it as a baseline often.

Quick note: Might wanna add Situational 50 to the double frenzy barb for damage boost. Hell everything seems to be boosted may as well inclyde the crappy barb damage boost all things being equal:D

Thx, glad to hear that this is useful for people.

Easy enough to do the numbers with the damage boost in. I didn't even think about it previously, probably because I dislike damage boosts though I guess there isn't any other option on the barb. Thx for pointing that one out.

WF Double Frezied Barbarian with damage boost IV
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
7.0 / 7.0 .. inspire courage
1.0 / 1.0 .. prayer
5.0 / 5.0 .. damage boost +5
11.0 / 11.0 .. power attack
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (mighty rage)
........... .. 4 str (power rage iv)
........... .. 2 str (capstone)
........... .. 2 str (frenzy)
........... .. 4 str (death frenzy)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
24.0 / 12.0 .. 59 str (total)
53.0 / 41.0 .. total damage modifier

58.5 / 46.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
193.5 / 157.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
322.5 / 262.5 .. avg (19 or 20) crit damage (GS Khopesh)
43.9 / 34.9 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
19.4 / 15.8 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
32.3 / 26.3 .. weighted (19 or 20) crit damage (*2/20)
95.5 / 76.9 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
20.0 / 20.0 .. Average vicious + greater damage (6d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
123.0 / 104.4 .. subtotal

6.7 / 6.7 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.3 / 3.3 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.4 / 2.4 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.3 / 15.3 .. total weapon effects
138.3 / 119.7 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
691.4 / 598.4 .. total avg damage per round
1289.8 .. total main + off hand
451.4 .. DPS

Nick_RC
04-22-2009, 12:56 PM
Hey if you got time bro would you be able to put this one in there.

Monster template but 2 barb levels instead of monk. I Had a 'monster' at 20 shroud completions when the thread was posted but deleted in favour of 2 barb levels. I like to thumb my nose at ac and evasion and the result is a little more dps.

+1 PA
+4 strength over 5ish minutes.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2056042&postcount=147

For reference.

CHeers

N

BlackSteel
04-23-2009, 06:50 AM
since the FB DPS for TWF is just above, I'll post this here for giggles

you can determine at what attacks/minute that a THF would overtake a TWF by working backwards from all the information you have listed. Just change the STR bonus/PA/and personally I'd swap bloodstone for LOTD.

glancing blows you can calculate at 50% or 33% depending just how you're moving, with frenzy always procing, and other elemental damage proc'ing 30% of the time.

gives me an on hit total of 195.55 for a WF with a greataxe

so 452 DPS = 195.55 x (attacks/min) / 60
138.7 attacks/minute

so a THF barb would deal more DPS than a TWF barb when they can produce more than 138 attacks/minute, on a single target. In this scenario GB's are adding nearly 80 DPS, so each additional target would contribute the same.

Mostly anyone can obtain 120-130 while moving with THF, its not that hard. It takes alot of practice to get above 135 tho.

gfunk
05-05-2009, 04:48 PM
this is a reference post for the following thread:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2179997#post2179997
I used Cforces attack timings spreadsheed to convert to dps

uber Strength Based Tempest Ranger (duel min II khopeshs, tharnes, bloodstone,madstone)
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
7.0 / 7.0 .. inspire courage
1.0 / 1.0 .. prayer
5.0 / 5.0 .. power attack
2.0 / 2.0 .. rams might
12.0 / 12.0 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 30 unbuffed str (18bse, 4lvlup, 6 item, 2 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
13.0 / 6.0 .. 36 str (total)
45.0 / 38.0 .. total damage modifier
50.5 / 43.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
169.5 / 148.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
42.9 / 37.0 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
17.0 / 14.9 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
3.8 / 3.8 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
63.7 / 55.6 .. Average damage per swing

6.7 / 6.7 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
2.4 / 2.4 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
9.0 9.0 .. total weapon effects (null for all acid damage)
72.7 64.7 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
363.5 / 323.3 .. total avg damage per round
686.8 .. total main + off hand
261.0 .. DPS

moderate Strength Based Tempest Ranger (min II khopesh main/+5 transmuter offhand, bloodstone, madstone,backstabber gloves)
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
7.0 / 7.0 .. inspire courage
1.0 / 1.0 .. prayer
5.0 / 5.0 .. power attack
2.0 / 2.0 .. rams might
12.0 / 12.0 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 30 unbuffed str (18bse, 4lvlup, 6 item, 2 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
13.0 / 6.0 .. 36 str (total)
45.0 / 38.0 .. total damage modifier
50.5 / 42.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh main, transmuter offhand)
169.5 / 145.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
42.9 / 36.1 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
17.0 / 14.6 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
0.95 / 0.95 .. backstabber gloves(8*19/20)/2
60.8 / 51.6 .. Average damage per swing

6.7 / .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
2.4 / .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
9.0 .. total weapon effects (null for all acid damage)
69.9 51.6 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
349.3 / 258.1 .. total avg damage per round
607.4 .. total main + off hand
230.8 .. DPS


casual Strength Based Tempest Ranger (+5 transmutering khopeshes)
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
7.0 / 7.0 .. inspire courage
1.0 / 1.0 .. prayer
5.0 / 5.0 .. power attack
2.0 / 2.0 .. rams might
12.0 / 12.0 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 28 unbuffed str (17bse, 4lvlup, 6 item, 1 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
11.0 / 5.0 .. 32 str (total)
43.0 / 37.0 .. total damage modifier
47.5 / 41.5 .. avg regular damage (duel +5 transmuters)
142.5 / 124.5 .. avg crit damage (no bloodstone)
40.4 / 35.3 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
14.3 / 12.5 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
0.95 / 0.95 .. backstabber gloves(8*19/20)/2
55.6 / 48.7 .. Average damage per swing



55.6 48.7 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
277.9 / 243.4 .. total avg damage per round
521.3 .. total main + off hand
198.1 .. DPS


uninformed Strength Based Tempest Ranger (+5 holy longswords)
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
7.0 / 7.0 .. inspire courage
1.0 / 1.0 .. prayer
0.0 / 0.0 .. didn’t take power attack
2.0 / 2.0 .. rams might
12.0 / 12.0 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 28 unbuffed str (17bse, 4lvlup, 6 item, 1 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
11.0 / 5.0 .. 32 str (total)
38.0 / 32.0 .. total damage modifier
42.5 / 36.5 .. avg regular damage (duel +5 holy longswords)
85.0 / 73.0 .. avg crit damage (no bloodstone)
36.1 / 31.0 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
8.5 / 7.3 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)

44.6 / 38.3 .. Average damage per swing
-15.0 / -15.0 .. penalty for not bypassing dr (on normal)
29.6 / 23.3 .. total average damage per swing
6.7 / 6.7 .. 2d6 holy damage
36.3 30.0 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
181.4 / 149.9 .. total avg damage per round
331.3 .. total main + off hand
125.9 .. DPS

uninformed sword and board fighter (+5 holy longsword)
main / offhand
5.0 / .. weapon
7.0 / .. inspire courage
1.0 / .. prayer
0.0 / .. didn’t take power attack
2.0 / .. fighter enh
4.0 / .. weapon specializations
.......... .. 32 unbuffed str (18bse, 4lvlup, 6 item, 1 tome,3enh)

........... .. 2 str (rage)
12.0 / .. 34 str (total)
31.0 / .. total damage modifier
35.5 / .. avg regular damage (duel +5 holy longswords)
71.0 / .. avg crit damage (no bloodstone)
30.2 / .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
7.1 / .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)

37.3 / .. Average damage per swing
-15.0 / .. penalty for not bypassing dr (on normal)
22.3 / .. total average damage per swing
6.7 / .. 2d6 holy damage
28.9 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / .. # of attacks per round
144.6 / .. total avg damage per round
144.6 .. total main + off hand
54.1 DPS

moderate Strength Based Tempest ranger without buffs (min II khopesh main/+5 transmuter offhand, bloodstone, madstone, backstabber gloves)
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
0.0 / 0.0 .. inspire courage
0.0 / 0.0 .. prayer
5.0 / 5.0 .. power attack
2.0 / 2.0 .. rams might
12.0 / 12.0 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 30 unbuffed str (18bse, 4lvlup, 6 item, 2 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
11.0 / 5.0 .. 32 str (total)
35.0 / 29.0 .. total damage modifier
40.5 / 33.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh main, transmuter offhand)
139.5 / 118.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
34.4 / 28.5 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
14.0 / 11.9 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
0.95 / 0.95 .. backstabber gloves(8*19/20)/2
49.3 / 41.3 .. Average damage per swing

6.7 / .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
2.4 / .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
9.0 .. total weapon effects (null for all acid damage)
58.4 41.3 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
291.8 / 206.4 .. total avg damage per round
498.1 .. total main + off hand
189.3 .. DPS

casual Strength Based Tempest ranger without buffs (+5 transmuting khopeshes)
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
0.0 / 0.0 .. inspire courage
0.0 / 0.0 .. prayer
5.0 / 5.0 .. power attack
2.0 / 2.0 .. rams might
12.0 / 12.0 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 28 unbuffed str (17bse, 4lvlup, 6 item, 1 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
10.0 / 5.0 .. 30 str (total)
34.0 / 29.0 .. total damage modifier
38.5 / 33.5 .. avg regular damage (duel +5 transmuters)
115.5 / 100.5 .. avg crit damage (no bloodstone)
32.7 / 28.5 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
11.6 / 10.1 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
0.95 / 0.95 .. backstabber gloves(8*19/20)/2
45.2 / 39.5 .. Average damage per swing




45.2 39.5 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
226.1 / 197.4 .. total avg damage per round
423.5 .. total main + off hand
160.9 .. DPS

uninformed Strength Based Tempest Ranger without buffs(longswords)
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
0.0 / 0.0 .. inspire courage
0.0 / 0.0 .. prayer
0.0 / 0.0 .. didn’t take power attack
2.0 / 2.0 .. rams might
12.0 / 12.0 .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 28 unbuffed str (17bse, 4lvlup, 6 item, 1 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rams)
10.0 / 5.0 .. 30 str (total)
29.0 / 24.0 .. total damage modifier
33.5 / 28.5 .. avg regular damage (duel +5 holy longswords)
67.0 / 57.0 .. avg crit damage (no bloodstone)
28.5 / 24.2 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
6.7 / 5.7 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)

35.2 / 29.9 .. Average damage per swing
-15.0 / -15.0 .. penalty for not bypassing dr (on normal)
20.2 / 14.9 .. total average damage per swing

6.7 / 6.7 .. 2d6 holy damage
26.8 21.6 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
134.1 / 107.9 .. total avg damage per round
242.0 .. total main + off hand
92.0 .. DPS

uninformed sword and board fighter without buffs(+5 holy longsword)
main / offhand
5.0 / .. weapon
0.0 / .. inspire courage
0.0 / .. prayer
0.0 / .. didn’t take power attack
2.0 / .. fighter enh
4.0 / .. weapon specializations
.......... .. 32 unbuffed str (18bse, 4lvlup, 6 item, 1 tome,3enh)
........... ..
11.0 / .. 30 str (total)
22.0 / .. total damage modifier
26.5 / .. avg regular damage (duel +5 holy longswords)
53.0 / .. avg crit damage (no bloodstone)
22.5 / .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
5.3 / .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)

27.8 / .. Average damage per swing
-15.0 / .. penalty for not bypassing dr (on normal)
12.8 / .. total average damage per swing

6.7 / .. 2d6 holy damage
19.5 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / .. # of attacks per round
97.4 / .. total avg damage per round
97.4 .. total main + off hand
36.4 DPS

LargeMarge
05-05-2009, 05:15 PM
First...this thread is AWSOME!!!

Really nice job!!

I was wondering if you should include the 1 min +4 Str bonus from the Bladesworn Transformation that a lvl 6 WF paly gets? Do you think that these bonuses should get added to the WF Pure Paly build and the WF Tempest Paly builds?

I know that I end up using Bladesworn Transformation when I am in a big fight. And after I tell the cleric that I am about to use it.

gfunk
05-05-2009, 05:20 PM
First...this thread is AWSOME!!!

Really nice job!!

I was wondering if you should include the 1 min +4 Str bonus from the Bladesworn Transformation that a lvl 6 WF paly gets? Do you think that these bonuses should get added to the WF Pure Paly build and the WF Tempest Paly builds?

I know that I end up using Bladesworn Transformation when I am in a big fight. And after I tell the cleric that I am about to use it.

I was under the impression that bladesworn transformation was only for great swords, though I freely admit my in-experience with this enhancement. Has there been an update to it, or am I just missing something?

LargeMarge
05-05-2009, 05:26 PM
I was under the impression that bladesworn transformation was only for great swords, though I freely admit my in-experience with this enhancement. Has there been an update to it, or am I just missing something?

The bladesworn transformation adds a +4 Str bonus for one min...reguardless of what weapon you are using.

It also has other bonuses...but I can't recall all of them right now. I'll check it tonight when I get home. :)

gfunk
05-06-2009, 12:49 PM
The bladesworn transformation adds a +4 Str bonus for one min...reguardless of what weapon you are using.

It also has other bonuses...but I can't recall all of them right now. I'll check it tonight when I get home. :)

That being the case, the str bonus should be applied. Hopefully I can get around to adding that in shortly, however I have been a bit pre-occupied with real life work as of late..

gfunk
05-08-2009, 05:20 PM
edited smiting numbers, which affected the knight of chalice, and tempest/knight of chalice numbers. I had added in smites, but forgot to remove a regular attack to compensate. It effectively gave an extra attack.

osirisisis
05-24-2009, 02:28 PM
Ya gfunk great post, well done.

Is there a way U could get a rouf average on the scorge choker and add that to the warforge builds?

spyderwolf
05-26-2009, 03:01 AM
** NEW chart (damage per round), with weapon effects and buffs (see post on page 3 for details, link below)
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2086688&postcount=46
See Post #2 for DPS numbers using Cforces Attack speed timings


Damage per round multiplied be speed boost(s)
689.8 .. Halfling twf 18 cleric / 2 monk without sneak attack: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2103399&postcount=95 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2103399&postcount=95)
764.0 .. Warforged Strength Based Assassin w/o sneak attack/backstabbing
765.8.. Halfling twf 18 cleric / 2 monk with sneak attack:http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2103399&postcount=95 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2103399&postcount=95)
806.3.. Halfling twf 18 cleric / 2 monk with divine might II and sneak attack
833.3.. Halfling twf 18 cleric / 2 monk with divine might III and sneak attack
839.3 .. Elf Dex Based Tempest Ranger with rapiers, vs non-favored (Leafy, in sig.. sigh..dont nerf me!)
847.3 .. Dwarf Strength based Rogue13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (dwarven axes), vs non-favored, no sneak attack
862.7 .. Halfling Rogue13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (khopesh) vs non favored without sneak attack or haste boost http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175534 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175534)
878.9 .. Dwarf twfstalwart defender http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174962 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174962)
913.3 .. Human "The Exploiter" vs. non-favored, no sneak attack (khopesh) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687)
971.2 .. Warfored Strength based tempest ranger vs non favored
975.5.. Warfored Critical Rage II Barbarian w/ khopeshes
985.0 .. Warfored Critical Rage II Barbarian w/ heavy picks
1025.5 .. Warfored Knight of the Chalice, vs non- evil outsiders (with 1d6 vs evil) (16 bse str) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590) *
1040.5 .. Warforged Frezy I Barbarian
1051.1 .. Elf Dex Based Tempest Ranger with rapiers, vs favored (Leafy, in sig)
1054.7 .. Dwarf twf stalwart defender haste boosted 20% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174962 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174962)
1074.7 .. Warforged "Monster" vs. nonfavoredhttp://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630)
1071.5 .. Warforged Tempest I Knight of the Chalice II vs non-favored/outsiders http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590) *
1077.3 .. Warforged "Colossus" http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631)
1078.0 .. Dwarf 14/6 barb(crit rage II)/ranger w/ dwarven axes vs non- favoredhttp://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174667 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174667)
1081.6 .. Warforged Kensai Fighter without strength surge
1113.5 .. Human Kensai Fighter with khopesh and damage boost +5 (compare with haste boost +30%) http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2101964&postcount=86 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2101964&postcount=86)
1119.3 .. Halfling kensai fighter with khopesh and sneak attack (guile)
1129.4 .. Warforged Kensai fighter with strength surge
1130.3 .. Warforged Death Frezy Barbarian
1163.8 .. Warforged "Monster" vs. favored http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630)
1167.1 .. Dwarf 14/6 barb(crit rage II)/ranger w/ dwarven axes vs favored http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174667 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174667)
1184.0 .. Human "The Exploiter" vs favored including sneak attack/backstab(khopesh) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687)
1187.8.. Halfling "tinyterror" fighter 12/rogue7/barbarian1 with sneak attackhttp://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=176374 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=176374)
1199.9 .. Warforged Strength based tempest ranger vs. favored
1212.3.. Warforged Double Frezied Barbarian
1244.9.. Warforged Knight of the Chalice, vs evil outsiders, w/zeal (16 bse str) assumes acid damage http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590) *
1249.9.. Warforged Tempest I Knight of the Chalice II, vs evil outsiders, w/zeal (16 bse str) assumes acid damage http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590) *
1261.0 .. Halfing rogue pure dps build while backstabbing **
1275.0.. Warforged Strength based assassin while backstabbing
1285.1.. Halfling dex based Rogue 13 (acrobat)/Ranger(tempest)6/monk 1, vs favored, w/sneak attack http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2159257&postcount=136 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2159257&postcount=136)
1289.8.. Warforged Double Frezied Barbarian with damage boost IV http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2163181&postcount=144 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2163181&postcount=144)
1304.6.. Dwarf Strength based Rogue13/Ranger 6(tempest)/Barbarian 1 (dwarven axes), vs favored, w/sneak attack
1343.8 .. Human Kensai Fighter with khopesh and haste boost +30% (compare with damage boost +5) http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2101964&postcount=86 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2101964&postcount=86)
1361.6 .. Human "The exploiter" vs favored including sneak attack/backstab(khopesh) w/haste boost I http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687) *
1400.4.. Warforged Colossus haste boosted +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631)
1468.3 .. Warforged Kensai fighter while hasted boosted +30%
1416.8 .. Halfling Rogue13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (khopesh) vs favored, w/sneak attack http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175534 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175534)
1512.9 .. Warforged "Monster" vs favored haste boosted +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630)
1455.0 .. halfling kensai fighter with khopesh, sneak attack (guile) and haste boost +30%
1544.1.. Halfling "tinyterror" fighter 12/rogue7/barbarian1 with sneak attack, haste boosted +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=176374 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=176374)
1432.8 .. Warforged Tempest I Knight of the Chalice II, smiting 1/round, w/zeal vs evil outsiders (16bse str) assumes acid damage
1486.8 .. Warforged Knight of the Chalice smiting 1/round, w/zeal vs evil outsiders (16bse str) assumes acid damagehttp://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590) *
1657.5 .. Warforged assassin incl backstabbing, sneak attack, haste boosted +30%
1670.5 .. Halfing assassin incl backstabbing, sneak attack, haste boosted+30% http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2089146&postcount=54 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2089146&postcount=54)**
1670.6 .. Halfling dex based Rogue 13 (acrobat)/Ranger(tempest)6/monk 1, vs favored, w/sneak attack , haste boosted +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2159257&postcount=136 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2159257&postcount=136)
1696.0 .. Dwarf Rogue13 (acrobat)/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (dwarven axes), vs favored, w/sneak attack, haste boosted +30%
1841.8 .. Halfling Rogue13 (acrobat) /Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (khopesh) vs favored, w/sneak attack, haste boosted +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175534 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175534)
1876.2 .. Halfling Rogue13 (assassin) /Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (khopesh) vs favored, w/sneak attack, haste boosted +30%

* example in posted thread is Human, not Warforged. changed to WF here for consistancy, though I'll probably add in a human version at some point.
** I think its hilarious that the tiny halfling is the current king of (situational) swing... vicious little buggers
builds are indicated in green when their position in the dps chart is dependant on short-term effects (I did not include strength surge as a short term effect... yet)
builds are indicated in blue when their position in the dps chard is dependant on situational damage like backstabbing and favored enemies
builds are indicated in red when their position in the dps chard is dependant on taking damage

People have been argueing quite a bit about the relative dps of the various classes... often without any basis or numerical evidence to back up their arguements. To help provide some background, here are some comparisons of some generic versions str based versions of the various dps builds. They are the Kensai Fighter, Tempest Ranger, Frenzied Barbarian, Assassin, and Knight of the Chalice.

I calculated damage per swing/round assuming that all classes would all be using mineral 2 weaponry, would be double madstoned, and have a bloodstone. generic builds listed below are mostly warforged, builds that i will be comparing will be typically left as their original race (for example the dwarf barbarian). If people detect errors or important omissions, I will correct and modify the numbers. I did not look into dps (damage per second) per se, because of disagreement in exactly how fast attack occur.

Some of the unknowns are how exactly haste boosts/alacrity/spells stack with each other. Cforce has a whole thread currently designated to that problem.

i bet this post is at least 5 times longer than what we see becuase of all the different color changes each line lol :P

spyderwolf
05-26-2009, 03:02 AM
edited smiting numbers, which affected the knight of chalice, and tempest/knight of chalice numbers. I had added in smites, but forgot to remove a regular attack to compensate. It effectively gave an extra attack.

and btw leafy. you can smite and not break your attack sequence.

Xyfiel
05-26-2009, 03:53 AM
Wanted numbers for:

Warforged Crit rage II Barbarian 14/6 fighter kensai
twf heavy picks
tier II haste boost

same as above but with rogue 6 assassin

gfunk
06-03-2009, 01:50 AM
Wanted numbers for:

Warforged Crit rage II Barbarian 14/6 fighter kensai
twf heavy picks
tier II haste boost

same as above but with rogue 6 assassin

I think I have something similar, so this, so this shouldn't be too bad to look into. I haven't been watching the thread for a couple of weeks. I'll try and catch up on some of this stuff.


and btw leafy. you can smite and not break your attack sequence.

hmm.. its unfortunate I haven't had a paladin for over 2 years.. and that was a lowbie. I'm sure that some of the subtleties are lost on me as a result.


Ya gfunk great post, well done.

Is there a way U could get a rouf average on the scorge choker and add that to the warforge builds?

I could maybe look into a few of them as a special case... there are alot of WF listed in this thread though. I focused on them a bit because of their PA enhancement line.

gfunk
06-11-2009, 12:29 PM
Ya gfunk great post, well done.

Is there a way U could get a rouf average on the scorge choker and add that to the warforge builds?


Wanted numbers for:

Warforged Crit rage II Barbarian 14/6 fighter kensai
twf heavy picks
tier II haste boost

same as above but with rogue 6 assassin

I am trying some new formating, that hopefully makes this easier to follow. I also changed where I said "damage per round" to "damage per one complete attack sequence", as some people found this misleading. I also added damage onto the 3rd tier of the weapons that is more consistant with the updated tier III descriptions (I was using the old one before). I didn't include the scourge choker on the assassin variant, as that wouldn't make alot of sense (i.e. you would lose scourge effect quickly if you were backstabbing). I also added a dps catagory for haste boosts called "effective" dps (not in table, see details further down). This attempts to quantify the effect of the pause taken while activating haste boost, and then spreads 5 haste boosts over 150 seconds. roughly this gives 5 seconds of 0 dps, 95 seconds of boosted dps, and 50 seconds of normal dps.

hasted - w/ haste boost I - w/ haste boost II
356.5 ----- 401.5 ----- 418.9 ----- warforged 14 crit rage II barb / 6 kensai fighter (with mineral II heavy picks)
370.0 ----- 416.8 ----- 434.8 ----- warforged 14 crit rage II barb / 6 kensai fighter (with mineral II heavy picks + scourge choker)
391.0 ----- 416.8 ----- 459.4 ----- warforged 14 crit rage II barb / 6 assassin (with mineral II heavy picks)

Also, here are the numbers vs. 50% fortification (didnt include acid resistance though). I am including it mostly to show the diminished effect of both the improved crit range, and the loss of backstabbing damage).

hasted - w/ haste boost I - w/ haste boost II
285.8 ----- 321.9 ----- 335.8 ----- warforged 14 crit rage II barb / 6 kensai fighter (with mineral II heavy picks)
296.7 ----- 334.2 ----- 348.7 ----- warforged 14 crit rage II barb / 6 kensai fighter (with mineral II heavy picks + scourge choker)
296.8 ----- 334.2 ----- 348.8 ----- warforged 14 crit rage II barb / 6 assassin (with mineral II heavy picks)

detailed calculations below:

warforged 14 crit rage II barb / 6 kensai fighter (with mineral II heavy picks)
4 / 4 weapon crit multiplier/ effective range
1 d 8 Weapon dice
8 extra crit damage
0% mobs fortification

main / off
5 / 5 weapon +
7 / 7 inspire courage
1 / 1 prayer
8 / 8 power attack
1 / 1 kensai I
0 / 0 fighter enh
2 / 2 weapon specialization
0 0 greater weapon specialization
0 / 0 racial enhancements
-- -- 18 base str
-- -- 5 lvl up
-- -- 2 enhancements
-- -- 6 item
-- -- 4 tome
-- -- 6 greater rage
-- -- 4 power rage IV
-- -- 2 rage spell
-- -- 2 madstone I
-- -- 2 madstone II
-- -- 51 total strength
21 / 10.0 strength modifier
45 / 34 total damage modifier

4.5 / 4.5 weapon avg base damage
49.5 / 38.5 avg regular damage
230.0 / 186.0 avg crit damage
37.1 / 28.9 weighted reg damage
46.0 / 37.2 weighted crit damage

0.0 / 0.0 backstabbing
0.0 / 0.0 rogue sneak attack
7.6 / 7.6 tharnes (8 * 19/20)
0.0 / 0.0 halfling guile
90.7 / 73.7 base + sneak attack

6.7 / 6.7 2d6 holy tier I
3.3 / 3.3 1d6 acid tier II
3.3 / 3.3 acid on crit tier II
3.3 / 3.3 acid on crit tier III
0.7 / 0.7 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.4 / 2.4 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
19.7 / 19.7 total weapon effects

110.4 / 93.3 base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 # of attacks per attack sequence
551.9 / 466.6 total avg damage per hand for 1 complete attack sequence
1018.5 total damage in 1 complete attack sequence
356.5 hasted DPS

max / effective**
401.5 / 373.1 +haste boost I
418.9 / 384.1 +haste boost II
na / na +haste boost III
na / na +haste booste IV

2.852 duration of 1 complete attack sequence with haste
2.537 duration of 1 complete attack sequence with haste +haste boost I
2.432 duration of 1 complete attack sequence with haste + haste boost II
*dps assumptions include optimistic gear/tome configurations, as presumeably everyone will get there if they play long enough
**for " effective" damage on haste boosts, I considered the effect of using 5 haste boosts over 150 seconds, with an activation delay of 1 second

warforged 14 crit rage II barb / 6 kensai fighter (with mineral II heavy picks + scourge choker)
4 / 4 weapon crit multiplier/ effective range
1 d 8 Weapon dice
8 extra crit damage
0% mobs fortification

main / off
5 / 5 weapon +
7 / 7 inspire courage
1 / 1 prayer
8 / 8 power attack
1 / 1 kensai I
0 / 0 fighter enh
2 / 2 weapon specialization
0 0 greater weapon specialization
0 / 0 racial enhancements
-- -- 18 base str
-- -- 5 lvl up
-- -- 2 enhancements
-- -- 6 item
-- -- 4 tome
-- -- 6 greater rage
-- -- 4 power rage IV
-- -- 2 rage spell
-- -- 2 madstone I
-- -- 2 madstone II
-- -- 6 scourge choker (stacking portion)
-- -- 57 total strength
24 / 12.0 strength modifier
48 / 36 total damage modifier

4.5 / 4.5 weapon avg base damage
52.5 / 40.5 avg regular damage
242.0 / 194.0 avg crit damage
39.4 / 30.4 weighted reg damage
48.4 / 38.8 weighted crit damage

0.0 / 0.0 backstabbing
0.0 / 0.0 rogue sneak attack
7.6 / 7.6 tharnes (8 * 19/20)
0.0 / 0.0 halfling guile
95.4 / 76.8 base + sneak attack

6.7 / 6.7 2d6 holy tier I
3.3 / 3.3 1d6 acid tier II
3.3 / 3.3 acid on crit tier II
3.3 / 3.3 acid on crit tier III
0.7 / 0.7 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.4 / 2.4 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
19.7 / 19.7 total weapon effects

115.0 / 96.4 base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 # of attacks per attack sequence
575.1 / 482.1 total avg damage per hand for 1 complete attack sequence
1057.3 total damage in 1 complete attack sequence
370.0 hasted DPS

max / effective**
416.8 / 387.3 +haste boost I
434.8 / 398.7 +haste boost II
na / na +haste boost III
na / na +haste booste IV
2.852 / duration of 1 complete attack sequence with haste
2.537 / duration of 1 complete attack sequence with haste +haste boost I
2.432 / duration of 1 complete attack sequence with haste + haste boost II
*dps assumptions include optimistic gear/tome configurations, as presumeably everyone will get there if they play long enough
**for " effective" damage on haste boosts, I considered the effect of using 5 haste boosts over 150 seconds, with an activation delay of 1 second

warforged 14 crit rage II barb / 6 assassin (with mineral II heavy picks)
4 / 4 weapon crit multiplier/ effective range
1 d 8 Weapon dice
8 extra crit damage
0% mobs fortification

main / off
5 / 5 weapon +
7 / 7 inspire courage
1 / 1 prayer
8 / 8 power attack
0 / 0 kensai I
0 / 0 fighter enh
0 / 0 weapon specialization
0 0 greater weapon specialization
0 / 0 racial enhancements
-- -- 18 base str
-- -- 5 lvl up
-- -- 0 enhancements
-- -- 6 item
-- -- 4 tome
-- -- 6 greater rage
-- -- 4 power rage IV
-- -- 2 rage spell
-- -- 2 madstone I
-- -- 2 madstone II
-- -- 49 total strength
20 / 10.0 strength modifier
41 / 31 total damage modifier

4.5 / 4.5 weapon avg base damage
45.0 / 35.5 avg regular damage
212.0 / 174.0 avg crit damage
33.8 / 26.6 weighted reg damage
42.4 / 34.8 weighted crit damage

10.0 / 10.0 backstabbing (3d6 * 19/20)
5.7 / 5.7 rogue sneak attack training II (6 * 19/20)
7.6 / 7.6 tharnes (8 * 19/20)
0.0 / 0.0 halfling guile
99.4 / 84.7 base + sneak attack

6.7 / 6.7 2d6 holy tier I
3.3 / 3.3 1d6 acid tier II
3.3 / 3.3 acid on crit tier II
3.3 / 3.3 acid on crit tier III
0.7 / 0.7 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.4 / 2.4 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
19.7 / 19.7 total weapon effects

119.1 / 104.4 base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 # of attacks per attack sequence
595.4 / 521.8 total avg damage per hand for 1 complete attack sequence
1117.1 total damage in 1 complete attack sequence
391.0 hasted DPS

max / effective**
440.4 / 409.3 +haste boost I
459.4 / 421.3 +haste boost II
na / na +haste boost III
na / na +haste booste IV

2.852 duration of 1 complete attack sequence with haste
2.537 duration of 1 complete attack sequence with haste +haste boost I
2.432 duration of 1 complete attack sequence with haste + haste boost II
*dps assumptions include optimistic gear/tome configurations, as presumeably everyone will get there if they play long enough
**for " effective" damage on haste boosts, I considered the effect of using 5 haste boosts over 150 seconds, with an activation delay of 1 second

gfunk
06-12-2009, 01:36 PM
Here is my first attempt at THF damage calculations. I have several questions below if anyone can address them. The tables are fairly involved but I would appreciate any effort to check through them.

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/THFdpschart-2.jpg
** made some corrections with new info
so the DPS comparison for broken attack chains would be 438.3 from the barbarian vs 369.7 and 409.2 for the kensai in the non-boosted and boosted scenarios. Glancing blow effects proc rates are the main unknown for various builds)
(se preceding post for what I mean by effective dps).

also, here is another chart that shows it with vicious effects occuring on all glancing blows, but with only 50% proc rate on other effects:
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/thfchartwithviciousonglancing.jpg

(

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/attackspeed.jpg

I would appreciate any feedback / corrections.

a few specific questions:
1) does sneak attack work on glancing blows?
2) is 100% effects on glancing blows reasonable for WF kensai and barbarians?
3) do crit effects proc on glancing blows or is it only the non-crit effects that work?
4) for unbroken attack chains I am using 3 glancing blows / 5 two handed attacks. The ddo wiki has 2 / 5, however experimenting has shown glancing blows occur on the first attack. Can anyone else clairify this or explain the discrepancy with wiki?

also, just fyi this is the information i used for calculating glancing blow damage (stolen from another thread):

* BAB +0 to +10, Glancing Blow Dmg = Physical Damage / 5 (=20% of physical damage)
* BAB+11 to +15, Glancing Blow Dmg = Physical Damage / 4 (=25% of physical damage)
* BAB+16 to ..., Glancing Blow Dmg = Physical Damage / 3.33 (=30% of physical damage
* THF feat adds +10 to the secondary Physical Damage roll, before division by the appropriate divisor.
* ImpTHF adds another +20 (total +30) to the secondary Physical Damage roll, before division.

Also, I'll make a table showing the # of attacks I used for the broken attack sequence. It works out to 138 / minute in the normal hasted scenario and increases for kensai and kensai with haste boosts.

BlackSteel
06-12-2009, 11:36 PM
a few specific questions:
1) does sneak attack work on glancing blows?
2) is 100% effects on glancing blows reasonable for WF kensai and barbarians?
3) do crit effects proc on glancing blows or is it only the non-crit effects that work?
4) for unbroken attack chains I am using 3 glancing blows / 5 two handed attacks. The ddo wiki has 2 / 5, however experimenting has shown glancing blows occur on the first attack. Can anyone else clairify this or explain the discrepancy with wiki?

also, just fyi this is the information i used for calculating glancing blow damage (stolen from another thread):

* BAB +0 to +10, Glancing Blow Dmg = Physical Damage / 5 (=20% of physical damage)
* BAB+11 to +15, Glancing Blow Dmg = Physical Damage / 4 (=25% of physical damage)
* BAB+16 to ..., Glancing Blow Dmg = Physical Damage / 3.33 (=30% of physical damage
* THF feat adds +10 to the secondary Physical Damage roll, before division by the appropriate divisor.
* ImpTHF adds another +20 (total +30) to the secondary Physical Damage roll, before division.



1) no
2) no, the only effects that are 100% is the frenzy damage, everything else is <50 (I've yet to test out the capstone, theres a few threads floating around with different numbers, but 1/3 sounds about right ATM w/o barb capstone for weapon elemental dice)
3) dont recall, but the contribution here is pretty insignificant, hopefully someone else can answer
4) 3/5 is correct

FYI GTHF adds further damage to glancing blows, I would assume another +10 before division

Demoyn
06-23-2009, 07:15 PM
Hey Gfunk - after reading NXP's mislead thoughts on warchanters, can you plug this build into your thread for a reference of the DPS differential please?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170138

gfunk
06-23-2009, 10:14 PM
Hey Gfunk - after reading NXP's mislead thoughts on warchanters, can you plug this build into your thread for a reference of the DPS differential please?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170138

here are numbers for khopesh and rapier for the build you posted

I also added in a Dwarven axe user, as thats what I'm leveling atm (will be 18bard / 2fighter)

2 seperate charts for bard songs at +7 and +9

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/temp.jpg

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/bardson9.jpg

assuming mineral II of course..

Valezra
07-13-2009, 11:35 PM
Got a build I just made. Couldn't figure out the smite damage addition but it looks like it's doing around 503 Damage all boosted up before smites. Build is here. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2301535#post2301535)

Thanks in advance and awesome work on this thread man.

Val

gfunk
07-14-2009, 02:09 PM
Got a build I just made. Couldn't figure out the smite damage addition but it looks like it's doing around 503 Damage all boosted up before smites. Build is here. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2301535#post2301535)

Thanks in advance and awesome work on this thread man.

Val

thx for your interest in the thread.

I kinda hate doing pali DPS due to the complexity of adding in the smites. Its also a class I don't play much so I haven't confirmed some of the numbers "in the field"

Below I've done some calculations that assume you can get 1 smite and 1 divine sacrifice per complete attack seqence (5 main and 5 offhand attacks). Obviously thats alot of clicking... divine might, haste boost, zeal, madstone, smite, ds... and is quite situational (vs evil outsiders in this case).

But still, its nice damage (assuming I haven't made any mistakes)
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/palidandps.jpg

I didn't include the force ritual as I noted that you were interested in a dps comparison with "the monster", and I haven't included force rituals in those numbers (I get 520.6 dps with haste boost IV for the monster using a full attack sequence. The higher numbers that the creator of the build posted at times may have been due to a higher attack rate with a broken attack chain or possilby using slightly difference numbers for attacks/second).

** edit, sorry for the smallish font. It is legible on my screem but if you cannot read it let me know and I'll post another

Thanimal
07-14-2009, 02:33 PM
here are numbers for khopesh and rapier for the build you posted


Firstly, that spreadsheet is freakin' awesome!

Did you forget the +15% boost from Fighter 1? Did you consider a level of Rogue for the +6.5 (which should almost always be on because even if your teammates' DPS isn't that great it WILL be when you get done buffin' 'em up!)

If I'm right that those are missing (and that neither causes a cancelling drop in DPS that I haven't thought of), then it seems the optimized TWF Bard is around 60% of The Monster? I'd say I'd be quite happy with that, given all the other contributions a Warchanter makes.

Finally, I hate to take even more of your generous time, but if you could double-check for me that the +70% hate in the following build is enough to hold aggro from The Monster (i.e. that its DPS is not less than 60% of the Monster since 60% * 1.7 = 102%), I would be very psyched. I'm also curious if it can hold aggro from the decked out Paladin 20 vs. EO, at which point it has +120% aggro. I haven't run that computation at all, because only today did I realize that build is top-of-the-heap for non-SA best-case damage.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=190763

Thanks again for all your awesome work! I keep trying to give you more rep points, but apparently I am not loose with them and I'm supposed to "spread it around more." Sounds like a bad plan, but what do I know?

gfunk
07-14-2009, 05:26 PM
Firstly, that spreadsheet is freakin' awesome!

Did you forget the +15% boost from Fighter 1? Did you consider a level of Rogue for the +6.5 (which should almost always be on because even if your teammates' DPS isn't that great it WILL be when you get done buffin' 'em up!)

If I'm right that those are missing (and that neither causes a cancelling drop in DPS that I haven't thought of), then it seems the optimized TWF Bard is around 60% of The Monster? I'd say I'd be quite happy with that, given all the other contributions a Warchanter makes.

Finally, I hate to take even more of your generous time, but if you could double-check for me that the +70% hate in the following build is enough to hold aggro from The Monster (i.e. that its DPS is not less than 60% of the Monster since 60% * 1.7 = 102%), I would be very psyched. I'm also curious if it can hold aggro from the decked out Paladin 20 vs. EO, at which point it has +120% aggro. I haven't run that computation at all, because only today did I realize that build is top-of-the-heap for non-SA best-case damage.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=190763

Thanks again for all your awesome work! I keep trying to give you more rep points, but apparently I am not loose with them and I'm supposed to "spread it around more." Sounds like a bad plan, but what do I know?

I didnt put in haste boost for the above bard builds, so you could add roughly 15% (peak).
also, those builds are a with 2 lvls of fighter, so a lvl of rogue would add some backstabbing dps (however the dwarf would lose a point of str). Still, most people are pretty happy to have any sort of dps out of a bard... many bards just kinda stand around (they are the ultimate pikers).

Here is monster vs. hate monster side by side comparison in favored and non-favored scenarios. Note, that I didn't include tharnes in the "hate monster" because you are planning on holding agro. The monster numbers have tharnes in them, even though they will get agro from most other people (except dedicated agro generators). I do not think you will have a problem holding agro, even considering that you won't be counting on haste boost all the time.

I'm assuming I read your info correctly and that you didnt have WF power attack enhancements.
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/mnstr.jpg

Garth_of_Sarlona
07-15-2009, 09:21 AM
Leafy, haven't been keeping up with the latest developments in this thread, but I think the dps potential of a WF frenzied bezerker barbarian with all of the THF feats and enhancements to glancing blows is being underestimated. Now that special effects such as burst, holy, blast are potentially going off on glancing blows, I think this build has a higher dps than many people think

Are you taking the glancing blows calculations into account in your graphs?

Garth

Thanimal
07-15-2009, 09:24 AM
Leafy, haven't been keeping up with the latest developments in this thread, but I think the dps potential of a WF frenzied bezerker barbarian with all of the THF feats and enhancements to glancing blows is being underestimated. Now that special effects such as burst, holy, blast are potentially going off on glancing blows, I think this build has a higher dps than many people think

Are you taking the glancing blows calculations into account in your graphs?

Garth

This thread is only TWF I think?

Thanimal
07-15-2009, 09:52 AM
I didnt put in haste boost for the above bard builds, so you could add roughly 15% (peak).
also, those builds are a with 2 lvls of fighter, so a lvl of rogue would add some backstabbing dps (however the dwarf would lose a point of str). Still, most people are pretty happy to have any sort of dps out of a bard... many bards just kinda stand around (they are the ultimate pikers).

Here is monster vs. hate monster side by side comparison in favored and non-favored scenarios. Note, that I didn't include tharnes in the "hate monster" because you are planning on holding agro. The monster numbers have tharnes in them, even though they will get agro from most other people (except dedicated agro generators). I do not think you will have a problem holding agro, even considering that you won't be counting on haste boost all the time. At non boosted dps of 342.9 *1.7 = 582.9 you shouldnt have trouble holding agro from anyone unless its some sort of rogue or rogue multiclass that doesn't have agro mitigation enhancements... and even then it would only be for a second as their dps would quickly drop without backstab/sneak attack.

I'm assuming I read your info correctly and that you didnt have WF power attack enhancements.

THANKS so much!

I'm glad that margin looks big, because you've been too generous to The Hate Monster. Not only are you correct that the build doesn't take WF PA enhancements, but the reason it doesn't is that its true purpose is to tank so against the red-names it will be in Combat Expertise mode. So for the aggro-holding comparison the build should be in CE mode, with no PA at all.

Secondly, one of the greensteel weapons must have a +4 Insight bonus on it, I think. (I suppose theoretically it's possible to have a +3 Dodge Ring and then put the +4 Insight on the DT Docent, but I'd rather have the slot available for something else if possible.)

Next, you appear to have given me Kensai bonuses, which I don't get since I'm Stalwart Defender. That includes the STR surge. (Although I do get some of that [+3 STR] from Defender stance if we're talking about level 20.)

On the other hand, I think I'm generally willing to count my Haste Boosts because my "job description" requires me to save them all for the guy I *must* hold aggro against. So I'm expecting to blow 5 haste boosts in the first few minutes of any final battle, to help establish a big hate lead. But it's certainly good to consider "with" and "without" scenarios.

gfunk
07-15-2009, 10:00 AM
THANKS so much!

I'm glad that margin looks big, because you've been too generous to The Hate Monster. Not only are you correct that the build doesn't take WF PA enhancements, but the reason it doesn't is that its true purpose is to tank so against the red-names it will be in Combat Expertise mode. So for the aggro-holding comparison the build should be in CE mode, with no PA at all.

Secondly, one of the greensteel weapons must have a +4 Insight bonus on it, I think. (I suppose theoretically it's possible to have a +3 Dodge Ring and then put the +4 Insight on the DT Docent, but I'd rather have the slot available for something else if possible.)

Next, you appear to have given me Kensai bonuses, which I don't get since I'm Stalwart Defender. That includes the STR surge. (Although I do get some of that [+3 STR] from Defender stance if we're talking about level 20.)

On the other hand, I think I'm generally willing to count my Haste Boosts because my "job description" requires me to save them all for the guy I *must* hold aggro against. So I'm expecting to blow 5 haste boosts in the first few minutes of any final battle, to help establish a big hate lead. But it's certainly good to consider "with" and "without" scenarios.

yeah.. missed a few things.. the kensai bonus shouldnt be there, and i didnt really think about the insight weapon (though I would put in on the docent personally). I updated the post to reflect this

gfunk
07-15-2009, 10:08 AM
This thread is only TWF I think?

supposed to be mostly TWF.. I've mostly avoided THF because of all the changes in mod 9 (esp concerning glancing blow effect procs). I did make a post about it in this thread (#159) in hopes to get some verifyable and consistant feedback but no such luck.


Leafy, haven't been keeping up with the latest developments in this thread, but I think the dps potential of a WF frenzied bezerker barbarian with all of the THF feats and enhancements to glancing blows is being underestimated. Now that special effects such as burst, holy, blast are potentially going off on glancing blows, I think this build has a higher dps than many people think

Are you taking the glancing blows calculations into account in your graphs?

Garth

glancing blows take the place of offhand damage in the 2nd column, so yeah, I was taking them into account. I didn't include vicious in glancing blow damage which seems to be a mistake, as most people are telling me now that you get it on 100% of your glancing blows. Also, I put crit effects on glancing blows which probably isn't right... its a work in progress...

Thanimal
07-15-2009, 10:25 AM
yeah.. missed a few things.. the kensai bonus shouldnt be there, and i didnt really think about the insight weapon (though I would put in on the docent personally). I updated the post to reflect this

Still giving HM the full STR surge, I think?

Nevertheless, these numbers are roughly what I got and are encouraging. When similarly equipped, it seems the Hate Monster (in CE and with Insight weapon) can maintain over 70% of the DPS of the Monster, which then translate to about 120% of the hate. (Slightly less when both are haste-boosted since Monster fits the max Haste Boost and I didn't.) That's a tolerable margin I think.

And, of course, some day at level 20 the Hate multiplier becomes +120% (or 2.2x) which should "trivally" stay ahead of everyone.

Thanks for the help to confirm.

gfunk
07-15-2009, 10:33 AM
Still giving HM the full STR surge, I think?

Nevertheless, these numbers are roughly what I got and are encouraging. When similarly equipped, it seems the Hate Monster (in CE and with Insight weapon) can maintain over 70% of the DPS of the Monster, which then translate to about 120% of the hate. (Slightly less when both are haste-boosted since Monster fits the max Haste Boost and I didn't.) That's a tolerable margin I think.

And, of course, some day at level 20 the Hate multiplier becomes +120% (or 2.2x) which should "trivally" stay ahead of everyone.

Thanks for the help to confirm.

grrr.. I hate missing all the little details..I'm going to blame it on the weak coffee im drinking today.

Yeah.. still had str surge in. Without it you drop to 293.9 (pre haste boost). Honestly though, if I was playing a monster build I would seriously consider putting on the tharnes set, to get some agro mitigation (so I could get the sneak attack more frequently). I'll update the post a little later.

Arkat
07-15-2009, 01:02 PM
Hey gfunk, assuming you can see the DDO Beta Forums and you don't mind, could you take a look at this FvS build and put it through your process?

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2270776&postcount=29

Here're my damage calcs but I included Haste but did not include double madstone nor did I include Tharne's. I also didn't include Weapon Effects like Force Ritual nor the stuff from Min II but if you could add that stuff, I'd appreciate it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2275507&postcount=32

Thanks for your time.

gfunk
07-15-2009, 02:15 PM
Hey gfunk, assuming you can see the DDO Beta Forums and you don't mind, could you take a look at this FvS build and put it through your process?

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2270776&postcount=29

Here're my damage calcs but I included Haste but did not include double madstone nor did I include Tharne's. I also didn't include Weapon Effects like Force Ritual nor the stuff from Min II but if you could add that stuff, I'd appreciate it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2275507&postcount=32

Thanks for your time.

haste is included in all my previous calcs.. perhaps it isnt obvious. I almost always include somewhat optimistic things like double madstone (unless grossly impractical), str+4 tome, bard songs, all damaging tiers on gs. I don't include force rituals or scourge choker typically.
Also, my bard songs area bit out of date.. at +7, but its all relative and i would have to change all the calcs then (something ill get around to)

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/favored.jpg

Arkat
07-15-2009, 05:10 PM
Thanks gfunk!

Arkat
07-15-2009, 05:28 PM
Hey gfunk, I'm awfully sorry but my build cannot get the class-based weapon specialization enhancements. Evidently a FvS qualifies for Tier I at 15th level and Tier II at 18th level. My build only allows for 12 levels of FvS. :(

Could you re-do the chart to reflect that?

Thanks verry much.

spifflove
07-15-2009, 05:45 PM
My halfling rulz all barbs!:p

Hilltrot
07-15-2009, 06:15 PM
Gfunk, What AC did you use for this?

It's pretty important. Why did you leave it off your initial post?

gfunk
07-15-2009, 07:22 PM
My halfling rulz all barbs!:p

as long as he doesnt get agro ;)


Gfunk, What AC did you use for this?

It's pretty important. Why did you leave it off your initial post?

Attack bonus is a whole other factor that would make things too complicated. Most of the builds listed here hit most content on a 1 due to the equipement and buffs considered (you can build up a very good attack bonus even on a sub-par build with the right combination of gear, buffs, and positioning). There are obviously some exceptions like some beholders for example, and a few red names.

Most people tend to think of performance vs. purple names like the pit fiend and horned devil (which are both fairly low AC). In many other situations (vs. trash) it becomes less important to kill mobs with dps and more important to stun, blind, or otherwise disable them (at which point the importance of attack bonus starts to fluctuate wildly)

If you start considering AC, then you should also start considering the effects of agro. You then need to think about if the build in question is breaking their attack chain or not, which has implications on attack rate and attack bonus. At that point it becomes much too complex to plot on a linear chart, and we would need to start using a graph. Graphs can easily become to cluttered when you add in too many data groups, so its rather impractical to compare large numbers of builds this way (though its quite useful for looking at how a half dozen or so perform over a range of Armor classes).

In mod 9 we will have the complicating factor of grazing blows which will really make things messy (if there are alot of high AC mobs coming our way.. I think there will be)

So in the end, this is a simple approach of max dps assuming you can hit on a 2 or better (thats the way most power gamers think about it from what I can tell). A more complex approach would neccesarily have to include less builds

Thanimal
07-16-2009, 09:28 AM
grrr.. I hate missing all the little details..I'm going to blame it on the weak coffee im drinking today.

Yeah.. still had str surge in. Without it you drop to 293.9 (pre haste boost). Honestly though, if I was playing a monster build I would seriously consider putting on the tharnes set, to get some agro mitigation (so I could get the sneak attack more frequently). I'll update the post a little later.

heheh, I'm a pesky mosquito! Now I think you've just barely short-changed me because the Defender stance does offer +2 STR (actually +3 at level 20 although that last point doesn't change anything). While this doesn't matter *much*, every point of DPS counts as 1.7 points of hate, so the little stuff does matter a little.

It also looks to me like there's a bug in the spreadsheet. I see STR modifiers of 19 and 8, which I don't think is possible. Should be 16 and 8 (to become 17 and 8), right? So unfortunately, it looks like the result for favored-enemy DPS is going to go down a little after these fixes.

gfunk
07-16-2009, 10:40 AM
It also looks to me like there's a bug in the spreadsheet. I see STR modifiers of 19 and 8, which I don't think is possible. Should be 16 and 8 (to become 17 and 8), right? So unfortunately, it looks like the result for favored-enemy DPS is going to go down a little after these fixes.

not a bug per se.. I had deleted that cell in a previous calc and manually entered it.. but then forgot that I had done so when I started changing numbers... Anyways, I sent you a version that should work for you.

Elurian
07-18-2009, 11:57 AM
Just coming back after a year and a half away, and this was extremely helpful - thanks! Your comments re: complexity of calculating to-hit modifiers and ACs (especially in light of boosts in an attack sequence that may or may not be truncated) are dead on. It might make a pretty substantial difference for some of the builds that really give up attack bonus for raw DPS, but there are too many scenarios to try to calc them all - you'd take up all the forum's storage space. :)

That said, I suspect many players are interested in it not for a purely quantitative comparison across all builds, but for the ability to evaluate very specific circumstances (what's the impact of a given clicky or spell against a given target, or which of their 3 DPS builds should they take into a specific encounter).

Conceptually, it might be helpful to post a discount based on *changes* in the probability of hitting, rather than trying to establish those parameters. I.e., if you go from hitting on 2s to hitting on 3s, you'll do 94.74% of the standard DPS, and if you need 5s, you'll do 84.2% of the listed amount if you're only getting 1 swing off.

Somebody who's stayed in the loop on what the attack bonuses are in the sequence could also blend those to make a single chart that would always be useful for stand and deliver, and another that would always be useful for strafe fighting. Is your chart discounting to 95% to reflect misses on 1s already? (Since it's static, it doesn't matter unless you impose miss chances).

gfunk
07-18-2009, 01:45 PM
Just coming back after a year and a half away, and this was extremely helpful - thanks! Your comments re: complexity of calculating to-hit modifiers and ACs (especially in light of boosts in an attack sequence that may or may not be truncated) are dead on. It might make a pretty substantial difference for some of the builds that really give up attack bonus for raw DPS, but there are too many scenarios to try to calc them all - you'd take up all the forum's storage space. :)

That said, I suspect many players are interested in it not for a purely quantitative comparison across all builds, but for the ability to evaluate very specific circumstances (what's the impact of a given clicky or spell against a given target, or which of their 3 DPS builds should they take into a specific encounter).

Conceptually, it might be helpful to post a discount based on *changes* in the probability of hitting, rather than trying to establish those parameters. I.e., if you go from hitting on 2s to hitting on 3s, you'll do 94.74% of the standard DPS, and if you need 5s, you'll do 84.2% of the listed amount if you're only getting 1 swing off.

Somebody who's stayed in the loop on what the attack bonuses are in the sequence could also blend those to make a single chart that would always be useful for stand and deliver, and another that would always be useful for strafe fighting. Is your chart discounting to 95% to reflect misses on 1s already? (Since it's static, it doesn't matter unless you impose miss chances).

thx for your interest in this thread.

A % discount to compensate for different attack bonuses may be a good way to do things... of course, then I would have to go and figure out the attack bonuses for everyone (something I would like to get to eventually).

And yes, the calculations include misses on 1's, which is why you see things like: numbers for tharnes showing up at 7.6 instead of 8.

Djeserit
07-22-2009, 07:17 PM
I too am curious about the DPS of my rogue19/mnk1 with GTWF, GEOB handwraps, tharnes, and one of those ring-thingies. My sense is that it's better than Khopeshes, but it's hard to tell. Also I have a WF rogue 17/pal2/mnk1 in progress and I wonder how he will stack up. I guess the main unknowable is what those rings will do.


Are you giving halfling rogues 18 base STR?

Borror0
07-22-2009, 09:15 PM
Just coming back after a year and a half away, and this was extremely helpful - thanks!
Oh my, welcome back!

Elurian
07-23-2009, 09:38 PM
Thanks, Borror0 - good to be back. :) The wiki's been helpful too, btw!

krud
08-20-2009, 09:56 AM
Ran thru NeatoMan's numbers using your criteria.

human rogue12/fighter6/paladin2 acrobat2-kensai1
avg dps = 367.2 scimitars, sneak
avg dps = 430.7 scimitars, sneak, haste boost 20%

relevant stats: base str16, sneak att training III, kensai scim mastery I.

keltoi
10-02-2009, 11:47 AM
very detailed and in depth study of the subject.thank you fortaking the time to research and post all of this helphul info : )

lexinator
10-02-2009, 12:25 PM
very detailed and in depth study of the subject.thank you fortaking the time to research and post all of this helphul info : )

This is now old info and no longer applies.

You should not base your arguments on this old post, unless it gets updated to take last patch into account.

At this time THF>TWF, at least when comaring a Barbarian and Ranger.

gfunk
10-02-2009, 12:49 PM
This is now old info and no longer applies.

You should not base your arguments on this old post, unless it gets updated to take last patch into account.

At this time THF>TWF, at least when comaring a Barbarian and Ranger.

yo lex, this thread has nothing to do with THF, just fyi.

And yeah, it is out of date because of the elimination of the 5th animation, and subsequent changes to GTWF (losing the 2nd attack). This puts us back to the point where it is likely better to move while attacking(twitch), as two weapon fighters will be missing out on an attack (unless they are a ranger). There also seems to be little advantage to having tempest III atm, as a person could just break their attack chain after the first couple of animations to get the same result. Of course, we need to see some more work regarding the new attack chain durations before there can be a definitive answer.

In the meantime, there will be fairly minimal change in the relative position of the TWF builds (with respect to each other).

maddmatt70
10-02-2009, 01:34 PM
And yeah, it is out of date because of the elimination of the 5th animation, and subsequent changes to GTWF (losing the 2nd attack). This puts us back to the point where it is likely better to move while attacking(twitch), as two weapon fighters will be missing out on an attack (unless they are a ranger). There also seems to be little advantage to having tempest III atm, as a person could just break their attack chain after the first couple of animations to get the same result. Of course, we need to see some more work regarding the new attack chain durations before there can be a definitive answer.

In the meantime, there will be fairly minimal change in the relative position of the TWF builds (with respect to each other).

Hey yo GFunk this has always been a good thread. I am curious what the numbers look like now. It is funny because yesterday tempest 3 was the bomb now its well somebody should crank out the numbers and figure out what is what now.

DnD3
10-07-2009, 07:12 PM
I'm thinking of rolling a melee class, I know this chart is outdated and TWF got nerfed(so wait, are TWF Rangers better now than TWF fighters on the dps department?) , but are 2handed on top in dps by much right now? How where the two compared before anyways?

Valezra
12-16-2009, 01:43 PM
The last two builds on the list (both over 600 DPS) appear to have been calculated incorrectly. In the "Tasmanian Devil" thread you have added all the sneak attack damage into the base damage before crit multipliers and such. This will drastically increase the DPS beyond the build's actual capabilities. I'd be shocked if the Rogue/mix build surpasses the pure Khopesh Rogue.

Val

Valezra
12-16-2009, 02:21 PM
I will be posting my new build that I will be leveling up next for you to add to your chart if you like. It does 593 DPS while boosted.

Gunga
12-16-2009, 02:46 PM
Make sure it has a catchy name.

Valtrexor is a good one.

Calogrenant
03-17-2010, 12:12 AM
Hey man, thanks a ton for the great effort put in here!

Now, I did try to go through all the pages in the thread, didn't read all of them thoroughly, so please let me know if I missed the following things, and if I didn't, it'd be great if you could do the math about them.

- Greensteel Bastard Swords, warforged, fighter 12 / ranger 6 / rogue 2
- Same with Greensteel Khopeshes

- Warforged with a Greatsword, Kensai III
- Dwarf with a Greataxe, Kensai III.

Basically, not going after the analysis on a particular build, just wanting to see if it is true indeed that GS BS's > GS Khops, and how good two handed weapons are in comparison with dual wieldables.

Thanks a lot in advance!

osirisisis
04-04-2010, 06:15 PM
any word on epic sword of shadows whf ken or berserker. Anyone got a link on that?
great job gfunk Use your link all the time... got it nice a bookmarked.