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weyoun
03-05-2009, 09:50 AM
I know this suggestion has been made many times but here it is again:

1) Get rid of the repetitive flagging. Make it like the Titan. Pre-raid then raid.
2) Red dragon drops red dragon scales. Get 25, get armor. This only makes sense since every other dragon drops them. Fire resistance 30, superior combustion whatever . . .
3) Make the loot worth something. I've forgotten what most of the loot does its so totally irrelevant. Necklance of the silver concord? Kundarak warding bracers? You're joking right? Just pull it from the tables please.

Respectfully submitted,
Lysol

herzkos
03-05-2009, 09:56 AM
sure, do whatever ya want with the raid, just don't increase
the difficulty of it. There are already end game raids. Leave
it, tempest spine, demon queen, and twilight forge where they are.

Angelus_dead
03-05-2009, 09:58 AM
That's a bad idea if that's all you do.

Making a level 10 raid relevant to a game that's about to hit level 20 is bad for gameplay. If it's going to be updated to be relevant, they also need to update the mobs and traps for level 18+ characters.

Timered raids are inherently top-level content... they're designed to be played at level cap, and whenever the level cap moves past them the design starts to break.

Angelus_dead
03-05-2009, 09:59 AM
There are already end game raids. Leave
it, tempest spine, demon queen, and twilight forge where they are.
The idea that non-endgame raids are valuable is a pernicious myth.

Raiding is an inherently level-capped activity. (Especially if there's a lockout timer involved)

Laith
03-05-2009, 09:59 AM
sure, do whatever ya want with the raid, just don't increase
the difficulty of it. There are already end game raids. Leave
it, tempest spine, demon queen, and twilight forge where they are.this i agree with.

i'd be fine with them somehow reducing the odds of junk loot and changing flagging (even though they said they won't). Either of those changes make the raid more appealing.

Laith
03-05-2009, 10:01 AM
The idea that non-endgame raids are valuable is a pernicious myth.

Raiding is an inherently level-capped activity. (Especially if there's a lockout timer involved)then perhaps they should remove the lockout timer, making it more similar to TS (which is still run often and enjoyed by many non-capped toons).

Right now, we have a quest that is largely avoided because of exactly what you mention. It's a shame.

weyoun
03-05-2009, 10:01 AM
That's a bad idea if that's all you do.

Making a level 10 raid relevant to a game that's about to hit level 20 is bad for gameplay. If it's going to be updated to be relevant, they also need to update the mobs and traps for level 18+ characters.

Timered raids are inherently top-level content... they're designed to be played at level cap, and whenever the level cap moves past them the design starts to break.

I was going to add a suggestion about an epic difficulty or actually have the thing scale N/H/E to 10/15/20 or whatever but baby steps . . . baby steps.

herzkos
03-05-2009, 10:08 AM
lemme help you out a bit.


The idea that non-endgame raids are valuable is a pernicious myth (to A_D).

Raiding is an inherently level-capped activity(in A_D's opinion) .
(Especially if there's a lockout timer involved)


tailoring everything in the game to the end cap raiders is indeed pernicious
because not everyone in the game rolls up their character at 18-20.

(edit) I do agree that the flagging mechanism should be changed to do it once and you're in forever.

keithinCA
03-05-2009, 10:19 AM
After playing for 2 years I have only run Velah 4 times on my two capped toons (I'm a casual gamer with a family).

It's just not worth it to reflag for the quest. Why run four quests for the honor of repeating another quest? There is plenty of other content out there to use. Maybe when this was the "to do" quest it made sense. Now there are plenty of things to run rather than spend two hours flagging for Velah and I wont worry about it.

In fact, the quest has become so irrelevant that I have a level 11 cleric and level 13 sorcerer who have never run it (both are flagged) because there are better quests to run (XP, Favor and loot wise) and very few PUG groups for them. It takes long enough to fill a PUG Shroud group, can you imagine what would happen if you had to rerun all of the Vale quests each time? Arraetrikos would be quite safe and the Shroud would be quiet enough to hear crickets chirping.

Make it like the Titan, flag once and have it on a timer.

Borror0
03-05-2009, 10:44 AM
[...] they also need to update the mobs and traps for level 18+ characters
What about adding the ability to delevel and then add a level cap to the raid to that players have to complete underleveled?

I guess having to delevel (ie losing in power) would be frustrating, in the end.

frugal_gourmet
03-05-2009, 10:54 AM
Although the prerequisite quests are a big part of the XP you get at that level range.

...

How about the "elite" version is scaled for 18-20's, works for capped characters, and has better loot but the "normal" version remains the same (and pointless to run for high-level characters).

Angelus_dead
03-05-2009, 11:00 AM
What about adding the ability to delevel and then add a level cap to the raid to that players have to complete underleveled?
That might work, but it would require a large effort both from the programmers and the designers. Surely it would be faster and more reliable to bump quests upwards by advancing the mobs, traps, and loot.

Borror0
03-05-2009, 11:16 AM
That might work, but it would require a large effort both from the programmers and the designers. Surely it would be faster and more reliable to bump quests upwards by advancing the mobs, traps, and loot.
At each level increase? DDO tends to raise the level cap more often than most MMOs out there. We have to keep that in mind.

Not to mention that the ability to delevel does have other advantages, that you already know about. As for the code to limit completion to character higher than X, the code already exists. Look no further than Explorer zones, so that should not be a problem.

frugal_gourmet
03-05-2009, 11:17 AM
Not to mention that the ability to delevel does have other advantages.


Respec?

Borror0
03-05-2009, 11:19 AM
Respec?
No. It's a temporary deleveling*. Allows you to group with players of lower levels, run favor without being bored, etc.

*Anyone got a better sounding word?

frugal_gourmet
03-05-2009, 11:19 AM
No. It's a temporary deleveling*. Allows you to group with players of lower levels, run favor without being bored, etc.

*Anyone got a better sounding word?


Ahhhh...

Laith
03-05-2009, 11:27 AM
No. It's a temporary deleveling*. Allows you to group with players of lower levels, run favor without being bored, etc.

*Anyone got a better sounding word?
CoH calls it "exemplar" on the heroes side (and "sidekick" or "lackey" when you level up to match someone else), but i'm not convinced that's really a good name for it.

vtecfiend99
03-05-2009, 11:31 AM
No. It's a temporary deleveling*. Allows you to group with players of lower levels, run favor without being bored, etc.

*Anyone got a better sounding word?

Boooooooring. Much better to just change the quest.

And to A_D: Who says that making it relevant means that it has to have raid loot that is sought after at level cap? Most of the stuff is useless in there even at level 10.

Having said that, I would love to see a "re-imagining" of the Von series as a whole. Maybe have it be a pervasive story line that follows a character all the way from level 7-ish to level 20. Having a red dragon as a main villain is VERY D&D. Would not really take all that much effort either as you could do things like change the text of npc's and certain quest objectives to mention the storyline. Could have two raids in the chain, the current one, made a little more difficult and with added loot quality, and a level 20 knock down drag out between your party and the once fallen dragon you have been hunting ever since you were level 10:-)

An actual fight too, not one where she sits there and gets pwned like a gimp

SableShadow
03-05-2009, 12:08 PM
No. It's a temporary deleveling*. Allows you to group with players of lower levels, run favor without being bored, etc.

*Anyone got a better sounding word?

"Slumming"? :D

Or..."Reminisce (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=reminisce)".

Arianrhod
03-05-2009, 12:24 PM
Eh...

I don't care if they make all raids endgame relevant, as long as all non-raids (and at least one raid) remain accessible to characters with no raid gear (on Normal difficulty - hard and elite are supposed to be Hard and Elite). However -

There should also be at least some dragons outside of raids/preraids. It's Dungeons and Dragons, after all. Not all dragons have to be godlike opponents, and even players who don't care to raid want the chance to fight a dragon once in a while.

bobbryan2
03-05-2009, 12:28 PM
lemme help you out a bit.




tailoring everything in the game to the end cap raiders is indeed pernicious
because not everyone in the game rolls up their character at 18-20.

(edit) I do agree that the flagging mechanism should be changed to do it once and you're in forever.

Lemme help you a bit.

People don't start at 18. But also, people don't stay level 10 for very long. With a three day timer... you run the dragon.. what? twice?

Lithic
03-05-2009, 12:36 PM
Eh...

I don't care if they make all raids endgame relevant, as long as all non-raids (and at least one raid) remain accessible to characters with no raid gear (on Normal difficulty - hard and elite are supposed to be Hard and Elite). However -

There should also be at least some dragons outside of raids/preraids. It's Dungeons and Dragons, after all. Not all dragons have to be godlike opponents, and even players who don't care to raid want the chance to fight a dragon once in a while.

There are currently 3 white, 1 black, and 1 blue dragon you can fight outside of raids. Tor for 3 of them, and prey the hunter has 2 more white (though fighting them is optional).

elraido
03-05-2009, 12:39 PM
Ruby Encrusted Gauntlets.....those are fun. :D I can barely hurt a RAT in the vale with those things. Back when the spell was first released it rocked...now it does absolutly nothing for toons.

Von 3 and 5 do give you great xp while the other ones give you good xp, so that is reason enough to run it when lvl appropriate. But the raid its self, while fantastic to play, there is 0 reason to run it. Loot is horrible, xp is horrible. I have run it only like 4 times to completion, and a majority of those runs where with in the 1st year of its release. I look at some screen shots I took, and I look at my hp and weapons...and think, how did we beat that when we sucked so bad. :D

Red dragon scales would be nice. Run if 4-5 times and you get a scale each time...like Invaders, to turn in for armor.

herzkos
03-05-2009, 12:53 PM
Lemme help you a bit.

People don't start at 18. But also, people don't stay level 10 for very long. With a three day timer... you run the dragon.. what? twice?

Ok, you move the dragon to lvl 18-20, how many people never run it?

Not everyone in the game is a powerlevelling master. Some people actually run quests other than giant hold and
then go straight to the vale/orchard/refuge/subterane.

edit, i've seen groups running von5-6 from 8-14. If you go through those levels in 6 days, well have fun in another week when you are capped.
Two weeks to cap(or less) when the next mod hits.

Angelus_dead
03-05-2009, 12:54 PM
People don't start at 18. But also, people don't stay level 10 for very long. With a three day timer... you run the dragon.. what? twice?
That's the most obvious problem, but there are more. They relate to assembling a group of 12, gearing an L10 character for the quest, and then the impact of attractive raid loot if an L10 gets them. (Remember that if the loot is bumped to the point of being useful to L20 characters, it will be pretty unbalanced for an L10 who happens to pull one)

Angelus_dead
03-05-2009, 12:57 PM
Ok, you move the dragon to lvl 18-20, how many people never run it?
A level20 Velah would get more use than the level10 one does today (that's assuming that the flagging quests are either made optional, or bumped up to close to level20 themselves)

The majority of all Velah raids involve at least a few characters within -1 of the level cap. That will stay the same regardless of what level the raid is moved to... but if it's advanced to L20, then at least the rest of the group will also be close to the level cap.

Angelus_dead
03-05-2009, 12:58 PM
Ruby Encrusted Gauntlets.....those are fun. :D I can barely hurt a RAT in the vale with those things. Back when the spell was first released it rocked...now it does absolutly nothing for toons.
No- it was pathetic on first release as well. (Remember the original version had a four second casting time)

miceelf88
03-05-2009, 12:59 PM
I really don't like the idea of making raiding unavailable until the end-game. It's nice to have some raids along the way to introduce newer players to the concept of raiding and larger groups. This doesn't seem a good way of getting new content for capped players. it would also be weird to run von1-4 as a level 8-10, so that you'll have the opportunity to do von5-6 at level 18-20. That's a pretty big gap.

honestly, von5-6 would be run a LOT more if they got rid of the flagging mechanism. That's the big problem. Please don't take quests out of the 8-11 range, where it's hard enough to level as it is.

elraido
03-05-2009, 01:00 PM
What about having a super elite raid difficulty that brings the difficulty of all raids to 20+ (and you have to be capped to get in). Have a "pool" of items available if you beat it but to use it you have to be lvl 20. The items don't need to be "uber" even...stuff like Large Ingrediant bags, a scale or 5 or ingrediant of your choice etc.

Angelus_dead
03-05-2009, 01:07 PM
I really don't like the idea of making raiding unavailable until the end-game.
It's a common mistake to assume that raids are available for non-endgame players simply because their difficulty level is managable for non-endgame characters. There's a lot more to raiding than simply being able to beat the encounters.


It's nice to have some raids along the way to introduce newer players to the concept of raiding and larger groups.
Why's that nice?


it would also be weird to run von1-4 as a level 8-10, so that you'll have the opportunity to do von5-6 at level 18-20. That's a pretty big gap.
Obviously, if VON5-6 were raised by +10 levels, then either VON1-4 would be too, or else they'd be taken out of mandatory reflagging.


honestly, von5-6 would be run a LOT more if they got rid of the flagging mechanism.
Simply convincing players to "run" something more is not a good objective. It's not good gameplay for L16 characters to kill Velah today; and it'll be far worse if L20 characters get new incentive to kill the current Velah later.

The real objective should be for players to run quests at around the level the quests were built for. Velah was built for L10 characters, so encouraging L16-20 characters to fight her would be a mistake, unless the raid was retuned.

Angelus_dead
03-05-2009, 01:09 PM
What about having a super elite raid difficulty that brings the difficulty of all raids to 20+ (and you have to be capped to get in).
That could be a fine option; whether it's a good choice depends on how technically difficult it would be for the devs to make that change.

Certainly it would be nice to leave behind an accessible "Classic Version" if an old quest was rescaled to a new level.

Uska
03-05-2009, 01:14 PM
just leave it alone its fun and it would be something for none zerging power gamers to play at mid level not everything needs to be geared for that type of player and if it was there would soon be no game.

miceelf88
03-05-2009, 01:21 PM
I'm not especially interested in increasing the amount of times Velah gets run by 16-20 players. I mean, if the main goal is to have more stuff that can be run by capped characters in a balanced way, we could just ask the devs to make all of the quests level 18-20 and let people level up using the explorers/slayers/rares route.

I just am not sure that's the way the game should go. There should be fun, challenging, and rewarding things a level 10 character, particularly if it's someone's first or second character, should be able to do along the way to cap.

I guess the meta-question is to what extent we want the game to be focused on the end-game vs. on more casual players, newer players, and those who take a while to level...

That's why the only change I want is to take away the reflagging. If we follow your suggestion and move von1-4 (as well as 5&6) up to the level cap, that really takes away a huge chunk of what gets people from level 8 to level 10 as is currently the case, given how horrendous the shadow tombs are.

I think I understand the motivation and the part of me taht has a capped character can really relate. But the part of me that remembers leveling my first couple of characters and still tries to interact with newbies really hates this idea.

Perhaps the epic idea would be best.

Arianrhod
03-05-2009, 01:25 PM
Frankly, I'd love it if every raid with a quest level below cap got 2 new options added to it - 1) an elite/heroic endgame option with appropriate challenges and rewards for capped characters, and 2) a basic/non-raid option with appropriate challenges and rewards for single groups of the original quest level (permitting, for instance, casual groups with hirelings to experience the quests without having to jump through the hoops needed to get through a raid, provided they're willing to forgo the raid loot).

Junts
03-05-2009, 01:32 PM
Engulf and encase!



Think she might be, m9

Jefro
03-05-2009, 01:35 PM
Just add extra raid loot that are more to the times then mod 2. Gives more replay.

Mercules
03-05-2009, 01:43 PM
It's a common mistake to assume that raids are available for non-endgame players simply because their difficulty level is managable for non-endgame characters. There's a lot more to raiding than simply being able to beat the encounters.

You mean like reading a calender to figure out when your timer ends?



Ok... ignoring the obvious "Iz 1337, U 5ux0rz" post....


Change the manner of flagging and maybe drop the timer to a day. This will allow people to try for some Raid Loot that is not worthless in the level 10-12 range but really not worth it 14+, in general. Specific items are not horrible, but there are usually other options.

It is a fun quest, but having to re-flag gets annoying. Now that it is almost a mid-level raid it should move towards easier re-flagging and shorter timer.

VirieSquichie
03-05-2009, 04:08 PM
Having a timer on the raids is pointless anyhow, it just makes it so you HAVE to play another character or dungeon while you're waiting, or worse causes you to not log in for a couple days. We need people logged in.

If there were no raid timers, sure some people would grind the reaver into the ground the moment they finished the last Tor dragon. Those are the same people who are in Gianthold at level 8 now, and who are on timer for the Shrould with 4 or 5 characters at all times. Really, what's the point of trying to limit those people? They'll grind SOMETHING anyway, you're just preventing them from making it the same something on the same characters back to back. Unless someone's getting a commission every time a person logs a different character in, there's precious little good reason for it.

Most people get sick and tired of the view of any particular dungeon after they've run it a couple times in a (week, month, whatever) and aren't limited by that timer anyway, unless they run a raid and then a friend invites them on that same raid the next day or some similar situation. So you're prevented from grouping with someone on perfectly good content...for what reason, exactly? Because you might remember too much about it? Please...

There need to be raids at all levels because sometimes more than 6 people who know each other want to play together. Period. Aside from loot, aside from XP, aside from favor that's the driving point behind having raids at all levels. It's the closest thing we get to that first M in MMO, unless you count 40 people clustered around the same AH vendor...

The flagging is the only thing really broken about that raid.

Angelus_dead
03-05-2009, 04:14 PM
There need to be raids at all levels because sometimes more than 6 people who know each other want to play together. Period.
Wrong.

By your logic, we need 100-player dungeons. At all levels.

frugal_gourmet
03-05-2009, 04:17 PM
Frankly, I'd love it if every raid with a quest level below cap got 2 new options added to it - 1) an elite/heroic endgame option with appropriate challenges and rewards for capped characters, and 2) a basic/non-raid option with appropriate challenges and rewards for single groups of the original quest level (permitting, for instance, casual groups with hirelings to experience the quests without having to jump through the hoops needed to get through a raid, provided they're willing to forgo the raid loot).

I like this idea. This would also require the pre-raid to be upped in difficulty and the raid itself to be dependent on the enhanced pre-raid.

I would still couple this with no need to re-flag, of course.

Of course, whether this is worth it depends on the time it takes to "re-tool" a raid. If it's a lot, it may be worth it just to make a new raid. Dunno what the times involved are. All right just leave a raid that few people play, so long as it's not worth it to re-tool.

Comfortably
03-05-2009, 04:19 PM
IT'S ALL ABOUT DA BOOOOOTS!!!

Well, seeing as how the Abbot is being "changed" in this new mod we are getting I would advise you
to get some boots on any toon that is not WF.

wemery73
03-05-2009, 04:20 PM
sounds good


I know this suggestion has been made many times but here it is again:

1) Get rid of the repetitive flagging. Make it like the Titan. Pre-raid then raid.
2) Red dragon drops red dragon scales. Get 25, get armor. This only makes sense since every other dragon drops them. Fire resistance 30, superior combustion whatever . . .
3) Make the loot worth something. I've forgotten what most of the loot does its so totally irrelevant. Necklance of the silver concord? Kundarak warding bracers? You're joking right? Just pull it from the tables please.

Respectfully submitted,
Lysol

Pyromaniac
03-05-2009, 04:21 PM
Just make the boots drop rate better given its the only end game good item in there. The flagging is easy but annoying because most of the server won't run a raid you have to reflag for.

sephiroth1084
03-05-2009, 04:32 PM
I'd be in favor of having the old raids altered to mimic Devil Assault, where the base level of the raid remains the same on normal, but hard and elite get scaled up by 3 or 4 levels each (making VoN a lvl 13 or 14 on hard, and a level 16 or 18 on elite). In addition, add some new items that drop only on hard, and some that drop only on elite. These new items should replace some of the earlier items on the loot tables, so that people aren't pulling those Flamestrike bracers in elite.

Do the same for the Titan and DQ.

redoubt
03-05-2009, 04:43 PM
As the game is now we have several raids you can do starting at level 10 (yes people run them lower, but that is the quest level.) You can do these as you level your character without waiting until the level cap to do any raids. Even as a player with all capped characters I think this is a good thing.

We have already seen Turbine change a quest because it became too easy as the level cap went up.

I request that the current raids be left at their current level. The items from those raids are good when you are that level. Run them a couple times and move on. Sure, those raids may not be worth grinding to get an item, but there are other raids you can do that in.

Oh, and Velah is relevant. She is the first dragon you get to fight. Still. Please don't pump it up just because the level cap has increased.

Thanks.

sephiroth1084
03-05-2009, 06:49 PM
As the game is now we have several raids you can do starting at level 10 (yes people run them lower, but that is the quest level.) You can do these as you level your character without waiting until the level cap to do any raids. Even as a player with all capped characters I think this is a good thing.

We have already seen Turbine change a quest because it became too easy as the level cap went up.

I request that the current raids be left at their current level. The items from those raids are good when you are that level. Run them a couple times and move on. Sure, those raids may not be worth grinding to get an item, but there are other raids you can do that in.

Oh, and Velah is relevant. She is the first dragon you get to fight. Still. Please don't pump it up just because the level cap has increased.

Thanks.

The items may be useful at level 10, but how many times does someone run VoN while still in the 8-12 range? And how useful are they once their out of the range? Even barring the desire for the items, I don't know anyone who runs this raid more than twice before they are outside the level range. It's just too difficult to get a group together, and the rewards are just too slight.

What do you think about the suggestion I made above? It would keep VoN and the Titan and DQ accessible to the players in the level range that it was originally intended for, but will give the raids some longevity with characters who have passed that range.

Lorien_the_First_One
03-05-2009, 11:34 PM
Get rid of the reflagging, get rid of the timer...That's all the quest needs.

Garth_of_Sarlona
03-05-2009, 11:56 PM
The loot isn't totally irrelevant:

If the swing speed of all the weapons was the same i.e. greatsword same as greataxe - then the Sword of Shadow would actually be a very nice weapon, esp with the kensai/FB and twf enhancements coming up.

Oh and I find putting things in bold makes them true.

Garth

Dymond
03-06-2009, 12:03 AM
then perhaps they should remove the lockout timer, making it more similar to TS (which is still run often and enjoyed by many non-capped toons).

Right now, we have a quest that is largely avoided because of exactly what you mention. It's a shame.


Largely avoided? not sure what server your on..

Grinndal
03-06-2009, 12:33 AM
Boooooooring. Much better to just change the quest.

And to A_D: Who says that making it relevant means that it has to have raid loot that is sought after at level cap? Most of the stuff is useless in there even at level 10.

Having said that, I would love to see a "re-imagining" of the Von series as a whole. Maybe have it be a pervasive story line that follows a character all the way from level 7-ish to level 20. Having a red dragon as a main villain is VERY D&D. Would not really take all that much effort either as you could do things like change the text of npc's and certain quest objectives to mention the storyline. Could have two raids in the chain, the current one, made a little more difficult and with added loot quality, and a level 20 knock down drag out between your party and the once fallen dragon you have been hunting ever since you were level 10:-)

An actual fight too, not one where she sits there and gets pwned like a gimp

I like this idea. I mean how does the stormreaver line start with TS, then reaver, now the whole refuge. But the big red gets nothing? If you have to change her death to flying off right before death. Then she grows as we have grown...

Uska
03-06-2009, 12:56 AM
Get rid of the reflagging, get rid of the timer...That's all the quest needs.

Dump the flagging but not so sure about the timer

Uska
03-06-2009, 12:58 AM
The loot isn't totally irrelevant:

If the swing speed of all the weapons was the same i.e. greatsword same as greataxe - then the Sword of Shadow would actually be a very nice weapon, esp with the kensai/FB and twf enhancements coming up.

Oh and I find putting things in bold makes them true.

Garth

You mean THF not twf dont ya

Lorichie
03-06-2009, 01:04 AM
Get rid of the reflagging, get rid of the timer...That's all the quest needs.

Ease the flagging....allow von's 1-4 be completed in any order, put items at the end, like DQ at the very least, so if you are helping someone out and youre not on quest chain, you at least get an item.

Leave timer as is, if we go down the path of no timer, suddenly the forums be ablaze of retrofitting all raids with no timer.

Red Dragon Scales in end chest, 33 percent fire reduction, imp/greater fire resist, 1 charge ghero. This alone will make it a new raid, and will be run a lot. i would want armor for all my clerics at the very least.

imo,

R

bobbryan2
03-06-2009, 01:58 AM
Ease the flagging....allow von's 1-4 be completed in any order, put items at the end, like DQ at the very least, so if you are helping someone out and youre not on quest chain, you at least get an item.

Leave timer as is, if we go down the path of no timer, suddenly the forums be ablaze of retrofitting all raids with no timer.

Red Dragon Scales in end chest, 33 percent fire reduction, imp/greater fire resist, 1 charge ghero. This alone will make it a new raid, and will be run a lot. i would want armor for all my clerics at the very least.

imo,

R


Yuck... your flagging mechanism still sucks and is harder to code!!

As far as the timer goes... you'll really only run Dragon 1-3 times while leveling up... and then the loot is irrelevant all over again. At least nixing the timer on it would allow you to run von 5 a few times for quick leveling and some items that'll be nice for a while. I don't think the KDS, boots, and SoS are really nice enough to warrant the whole 3 day timer anymore.

Either that... or upgrade all the loot, raid the level... and give high level people another raid.

Mid level raids are a neat idea... but aren't great in practice. It gets terribly frustrating putting mid level dragon runs together. I'd say we run 1 in the guild per every 2 characters I level up. What's the point really?

Uska
03-06-2009, 02:04 AM
Yuck... your flagging mechanism still sucks and is harder to code!!

As far as the timer goes... you'll really only run Dragon 1-3 times while leveling up... and then the loot is irrelevant all over again. At least nixing the timer on it would allow you to run von 5 a few times for quick leveling and some items that'll be nice for a while. I don't think the KDS, boots, and SoS are really nice enough to warrant the whole 3 day timer anymore.

Either that... or upgrade all the loot, raid the level... and give high level people another raid.

Mid level raids are a neat idea... but aren't great in practice. It gets terribly frustrating putting mid level dragon runs together. I'd say we run 1 in the guild per every 2 characters I level up. What's the point really?



Not everyone plays like you some like mid level raids I dont really enjoy the shroud or SoS not a fan of the grind for crafting but I enjoy von 5 for the right level characters. Make it so it doesnt have to be flagged by 1-4 more then once and its fine timer and level

El_Frigo
03-06-2009, 02:16 AM
What can I say. DDO develops and the highest level of the characters increases. IMHO I'm just glad I can run a fun RAID on lvl8-10! Not everybody powerlevels ands caps in a week and unlocks end-game RAID possiblities.
Those RAID's are still good at their level, difficult enough if you do it on the appropriate level and a nice way to learn how to RAID when you grow up.

I do understand that for a level16-20 TS and VoN's are less fun, but hey... you ARE overleveling those quest and they were never meant to be for twelve lvl16's :p

bobbryan2
03-06-2009, 02:52 AM
Not everyone plays like you some like mid level raids I dont really enjoy the shroud or SoS not a fan of the grind for crafting but I enjoy von 5 for the right level characters. Make it so it doesnt have to be flagged by 1-4 more then once and its fine timer and level

There's no need to turn this to a 'playstyle' debate. The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming percentage of players in this game LEVEL UP.

If there was a large portion of the populace that permanently parked their characters at 10-12, and were completely content to do nothing but run the dragon all day and night... that would be something. But that isn't reality.

I enjoy Von 5. I even enjoy Von 5 on the right level of characters. I enjoy the Shroud because it's a great quest, but I think SoS is a little lame. But I'm still lucky to get 1-2 dragon completions for my characters. The loot is obsolete, the xp, while good, isn't good enough to warrant a 3 day timer... and the stat requirements make running it with short groups or odd class collections much less likely to happen.

Short of the actual quest... I think the dragon is a perfect example of how to do everything wrong.

bobbryan2
03-06-2009, 02:54 AM
What can I say. DDO develops and the highest level of the characters increases. IMHO I'm just glad I can run a fun RAID on lvl8-10! Not everybody powerlevels ands caps in a week and unlocks end-game RAID possiblities.
Those RAID's are still good at their level, difficult enough if you do it on the appropriate level and a nice way to learn how to RAID when you grow up.

I do understand that for a level16-20 TS and VoN's are less fun, but hey... you ARE overleveling those quest and they were never meant to be for twelve lvl16's :p

It doesn't matter that people don't level up in a week. If you play less, you'll necessarilly raid less. Seriously.. how many dragon completions do you have on your non-capped guy? 1? 2? 0?

It's an honest question.

Is there anyone that has more than 5 completions and isn't permanently parking their character at a lower level?

Hell.... does anyone even have 5?

Lorichie
03-06-2009, 03:00 AM
Hell.... does anyone even have 5?

While i dont believe my flagging mechanism sucks, nor would it be any harder to code than what is already existing in game now, i will however agree with this.

my last three characters i have leveled, ive done the vons once, and not done 5+6 at all, and have no plans to.

R

sephiroth1084
03-06-2009, 03:25 AM
Because no one addressed my first point, I'll ask again:

What about altering the level of VoN 5&6, DQ, Titan, so that on hard and elite they are higher level quests with slightly different loot lists? (think Devil Assault)

That way, the players who enjoy running raids at level 10 still have that option, while keeping the quest somewhat fresh and relevant for those at or near the cap. Insert some appropriate loot for the 2 higher difficulties, and suddenly we'll see people running these again at higher levels for more than just favor.

Uska
03-06-2009, 03:31 AM
It doesn't matter that people don't level up in a week. If you play less, you'll necessarilly raid less. Seriously.. how many dragon completions do you have on your non-capped guy? 1? 2? 0?

It's an honest question.

Is there anyone that has more than 5 completions and isn't permanently parking their character at a lower level?

Hell.... does anyone even have 5?

I have 6 on a level 12 just dont have enough time to play him enough, and no I am not parking him and a low level of completions per character doesnt mean it needs to be raised for higher level people they already have the shroud,SoS, Reaver,Abott(lol) and whatever is in mod 9 there is absolutely no reason to touch this quest other then flagging and lowering the timer maybe. Midlevels need fun to.

Uska
03-06-2009, 03:54 AM
A level20 Velah would get more use than the level10 one does today (that's assuming that the flagging quests are either made optional, or bumped up to close to level20 themselves)

The majority of all Velah raids involve at least a few characters within -1 of the level cap. That will stay the same regardless of what level the raid is moved to... but if it's advanced to L20, then at least the rest of the group will also be close to the level cap.

There is plenty of other things for them to run I am tired of the fully cap'd people crying to steal content from people who enjoy playing at mid level or or play much slower and relaxed then the power gamers.

sephiroth1084
03-06-2009, 03:56 AM
There is plenty of other things for them to run I am tired of the fully cap'd people crying to steal content from people who enjoy playing at mid level or or play much slower and relaxed then the power gamers.

How often do you run the dragon on Hard or Elite while in the level range?

Uska
03-06-2009, 03:58 AM
How often do you run the dragon on Hard or Elite while in the level range?

at least once on every character I have and some more often like my clerics and rogues. and high level people still dont need to steal another raid.

sephiroth1084
03-06-2009, 04:07 AM
at least once on every character I have and some more often like my clerics and rogues. and high level people still dont need to steal another raid.

I don't think I see more than 1 or 2 VoN runs in the 8-12 range per week. I know that I don't see any in the 10-14 range (for hard and/or elite) more than once every other week. I also don't see more than 2 or 3 runs for capped characters in a week.

In my experience, I've had trouble getting new characters into the raid once before hitting level 12. I've also noticed that I'm not at all excited to open the chest on anyone but a barbarian, simply because the rewards are so mediocre. Sure, some are great at level 10, but there is the knowledge that I'll be at level 13 in another week or two, and then early +6 stat items and such will be freely available.

I don't see it as "stealing" as much as I see it as breathing new life into an increasingly dusty raid. Besides, there are many more quests to run at that level than at 16, or presumably 18 and 20), so removing the higher difficulties isn't such a shame.

Auran82
03-06-2009, 04:28 AM
Because no one addressed my first point, I'll ask again:

What about altering the level of VoN 5&6, DQ, Titan, so that on hard and elite they are higher level quests with slightly different loot lists? (think Devil Assault)

That way, the players who enjoy running raids at level 10 still have that option, while keeping the quest somewhat fresh and relevant for those at or near the cap. Insert some appropriate loot for the 2 higher difficulties, and suddenly we'll see people running these again at higher levels for more than just favor.

Just give the same items (well almost) escept make them slightly improved for hard, and more so at elite.

Like giving the boots 15% striding on hard and 30% striding on elite.

And someone asked earlier why there weren't more dragons to fight.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2006/20060113h.jpg

sephiroth1084
03-06-2009, 04:40 AM
Just give the same items (well almost) escept make them slightly improved for hard, and more so at elite.

Like giving the boots 15% striding on hard and 30% striding on elite.

And someone asked earlier why there weren't more dragons to fight.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2006/20060113h.jpg

Yeah, that's sort of what I had in mind.

As for the fight itself...I find VoN 6 to be fairly dull. Many of the various ways of completing it have been removed by the developers, and most groups want to go with the hero method. My experience in VoN 6 across my characters has been my bar by which I measure how bored I am in other quests: Man, scroll-healing this WF tank through VoD was even more dull than VoN 6!

There is virtually nothing for ranged characters, mages, rogues or defensive tanks to do in VoN 6, so we're not exactly speaking about depriving the lower level community of some gem among their quests. Sure, it was the first dragon in the game, but each progressive dragon fight has become more interesting--I much prefer dragons that move around and jump and such.

Riorik
03-06-2009, 05:41 AM
In fact, the quest has become so irrelevant that I have a level 11 cleric and level 13 sorcerer who have never run it (both are flagged) because there are better quests to run (XP, Favor and loot wise) and very few PUG groups for them.

I was all about agreeing with you on relevance until you suggested it's not worth it for experience. Yes, back when this was the raid I'd probably ran it 60 times (and a lot of people ran it even more) but only a couple dozen times since then. However, for a level 10 character, VON5 is worth 20-25K experience. It's VON6 that's barely worth anything.

Even for a level 10 character, VON5 requires a whopping 30-40 minutes to do.

redoubt
03-06-2009, 11:49 AM
The items may be useful at level 10, but how many times does someone run VoN while still in the 8-12 range? And how useful are they once their out of the range? Even barring the desire for the items, I don't know anyone who runs this raid more than twice before they are outside the level range. It's just too difficult to get a group together, and the rewards are just too slight.

What do you think about the suggestion I made above? It would keep VoN and the Titan and DQ accessible to the players in the level range that it was originally intended for, but will give the raids some longevity with characters who have passed that range.

Well, the boots are useful at all levels. Sword of shadows is still a good weapon. The delving suit is still pretty good, though it is someone eclipsed by the new stuff.

As far as changing the way the quests scale, I'd rather they did not do that with the old stuff. The last time they did it (Reaver) it created what I consider to be a mess and no longer consider that quest level appropriate.

If they want to add new stuff that does this, that's cool. It can be done in development and they can scale stuff smartly. Not just grant blanket immunites and raise the CR levels. My request with this would be to show the level of the quest on each difficulty. I.e. Under the check box for normal it says 10. Under hard it say 15 and under elite it says 20. (Or whatever the quest scales to.)

Still, don't mess with the existing content. Simply drop the flags and move on.

redoubt
03-06-2009, 11:53 AM
Yuck... your flagging mechanism still sucks and is harder to code!!

As far as the timer goes... you'll really only run Dragon 1-3 times while leveling up... and then the loot is irrelevant all over again. At least nixing the timer on it would allow you to run von 5 a few times for quick leveling and some items that'll be nice for a while. I don't think the KDS, boots, and SoS are really nice enough to warrant the whole 3 day timer anymore.

Either that... or upgrade all the loot, raid the level... and give high level people another raid.

Mid level raids are a neat idea... but aren't great in practice. It gets terribly frustrating putting mid level dragon runs together. I'd say we run 1 in the guild per every 2 characters I level up. What's the point really?

You can already run von5 as many times in a row as you want. Just don't complete von 6. People do it all the time.

I say keep the mid level raids. Something cool on the way up.

The Titan, the reaver and shroud will most likely still be run in addition to whatever new raids they post. And honeslty, I can't keep all my character on the raid timers as it is... I don't need them to bump the low level raids up to "help me".

redoubt
03-06-2009, 12:04 PM
Yeah, that's sort of what I had in mind.

As for the fight itself...I find VoN 6 to be fairly dull. Many of the various ways of completing it have been removed by the developers, and most groups want to go with the hero method. My experience in VoN 6 across my characters has been my bar by which I measure how bored I am in other quests: Man, scroll-healing this WF tank through VoD was even more dull than VoN 6!

There is virtually nothing for ranged characters, mages, rogues or defensive tanks to do in VoN 6, so we're not exactly speaking about depriving the lower level community of some gem among their quests. Sure, it was the first dragon in the game, but each progressive dragon fight has become more interesting--I much prefer dragons that move around and jump and such.

Dragons:

White dragon in tutorial.... well at least you get to see it and not get eaten!
Velah at level 10
3 more dragons in the Gianthold Tor. They move and with their giant buddies can kill ya quick if you are not prepared.
Talk to another one in the Litany pre-raid. No fight there though.
Dragons in human and dragon form in the refuge, though noone wants to play there... too hard??? For some, I think.
Prey on the hunter. You can fight two in there.
You get to see several more in SoS, though not to fight them.

Overall, I think there is a good number on dragons in the game. I like that you don't fight them all. I mean, we are still only crunchy snacks to most of them! :D

Deadz
03-06-2009, 12:13 PM
Let me say i have not had a chance to run it yet.. but..

I am largely AFK all night long on nights i can not play "i log in, stand next to a Auctioneer, talk w/ guild alittle, look to see if i can mooch a favor run while bouncing the baby, and anywho..

I get ~4 tells a night from different groups looking for a cleric for von series..
Seems to be extremely active, i been stuck in my lvl range a good week or two, and for the last week or two, i could get a von group with very little wait if i had the time to run it.

Deadz

sephiroth1084
03-06-2009, 01:26 PM
Dragons:

White dragon in tutorial.... well at least you get to see it and not get eaten!
Velah at level 10
3 more dragons in the Gianthold Tor. They move and with their giant buddies can kill ya quick if you are not prepared.
Talk to another one in the Litany pre-raid. No fight there though.
Dragons in human and dragon form in the refuge, though noone wants to play there... too hard??? For some, I think.
Prey on the hunter. You can fight two in there.
You get to see several more in SoS, though not to fight them.

Overall, I think there is a good number on dragons in the game. I like that you don't fight them all. I mean, we are still only crunchy snacks to most of them! :D

I believe that web comic was written before Velah came out. And honestly, dragons in human form whom you do not fight aren't dragons; they're humans who call themselves funny things for your amusement. And seeing a dragon is cool--Korthos was awesome, and I admit that I was a little jaded my first time through because I had fought the white dragon and her mate before doing the Korthos stuff, but fighting dragons should be awesome! Velah is not. The area looks cool as hell, but she's a big red dragon that just sits there, and seems incapable of truly dealing with a single puny warrior beating on her nose.

sephiroth1084
03-06-2009, 01:29 PM
Let me say i have not had a chance to run it yet.. but..

I am largely AFK all night long on nights i can not play "i log in, stand next to a Auctioneer, talk w/ guild alittle, look to see if i can mooch a favor run while bouncing the baby, and anywho..

I get ~4 tells a night from different groups looking for a cleric for von series..
Seems to be extremely active, i been stuck in my lvl range a good week or two, and for the last week or two, i could get a von group with very little wait if i had the time to run it.

Deadz

Do you know that those groups ended up running it? I find that about half the time I want to run it, we end up not doing so because we can't find a cleric who is: not in group, who is flagged, who has the time to run it. Monks have made this a little easier, since they can often fulfill the Wis runes requirement, but then you need some very good healing bards. Got this done in this fashion recently, but that was after 5 or 6 attempts at getting the raid together unsuccessfully over the course of a few weeks.

Next time you get a tell asking if you can help on your cleric, send that same person a tell later and see if they managed to run and complete it.

Deadz
03-06-2009, 02:22 PM
Will do, and no i do not know if they complete it..

Sabotage
03-06-2009, 02:38 PM
No. It's a temporary deleveling*. Allows you to group with players of lower levels, run favor without being bored, etc.

*Anyone got a better sounding word?

I know its kinda late in the thread, but EQ2 calls it mentoring, i kinda like it.

Deadz
03-06-2009, 02:40 PM
I know its kinda late in the thread, but EQ2 calls it mentoring, i kinda like it.

Best part of eq2 imo, i played it a good 8 months, then they screwed it up with one update :(.