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View Full Version : Devs... Simple Answer for Simple Question



barecm
02-19-2009, 05:17 PM
Last posted 9/6/08 by Eladrin:

"We've got an additional sub-enhancement coming that will allow the Arcane Archer to imbue their arrow with a Magic Missile effect, granting additional force damage. More are planned in the future, including things like 'Fireball arrow'."

Fireball arrow (or the like) ... in or out for mod 9?

Don't need a huge explanation, just let us know if it is "in" or "out".

Thx
Ranged Combat (aka: that 'other' combat)

Memnir
02-19-2009, 07:30 PM
I think they said that the only ranger PrE going up in Mod 9 is Tempest - and the Arcane Archer and the Deepwood Sniper are going to be left out in the cold till Mod 10 (at the earliest).

If true, and I strongly think that it is, I guess we know which versions of Rangers the Devs prefer..

Borror0
02-19-2009, 08:20 PM
Arcane Archer is not planned for Module 9.

KuRRuPT
02-19-2009, 09:19 PM
Hope they make you be pure class in order for you to use it...

Borror0
02-19-2009, 09:42 PM
Hope they make you be pure class in order for you to use it...
Why?

Aesop
02-20-2009, 04:56 AM
Why?

I wonder the same question. I wonder why people are so geared towards cookie cutter builds. why people insist that only pure classes deserve anything. why they believe that multiclassing is evil. its a strange notion to me.

Aesop

barecm
02-20-2009, 07:15 AM
Sigh... Oh well. I just wonder why they are making improvements to enhancements for something that really doesn't need any more help (tempest ranger) and ignore something that desperately needs help (ranged combat). But then again, maybe I am not so surprised since Turbine has long since punted on ranged combat.

Just make the statement already Turbine... you hate ranged combat and will continue to leave it under developed in favor of everything else. At least then I will stop keeping my hopes up for anything related to ranged combat.

Zenako
02-20-2009, 08:37 AM
I wonder the same question. I wonder why people are so geared towards cookie cutter builds. why people insist that only pure classes deserve anything. why they believe that multiclassing is evil. its a strange notion to me.

Aesop

Not that MC is evil, but it is the root of almost ALL of the "broken builds" that abuse the rules to achieve godlike levels of bonuses. Splash levels almost ALL give you a disproportionate share of the perks and bonuses in the first few levels of the splash.

This is not a DDO thing, but really a D&D 3.5 thing...

Borror0
02-20-2009, 08:43 AM
why they believe that multiclassing is evil.
I think that they believe "Traps are a rogue's job" and that a rogue splash does not qualify you as a rogue.

negative
02-20-2009, 09:50 AM
Why should you be pure class for AA when in all honestly, it should require you to MC before you can get it. Rangers aren't Arcane! I'm glad they threw us a bone though and let pure rangers pick it up.

I am pretty sure Eladrin did say that AA would atleast get their +5 arrows at level 18 (20 Elf) though in Mod 9. I will be extremely disapointed if that is not the case.

Borror0
02-20-2009, 10:01 AM
Just make the statement already Turbine... you hate ranged combat and will continue to leave it under developed in favor of everything else.
Ranged combat is far from easy to fix. I have yet to read even one suggestion on how to fix it on these forums.

So far, all I have read either made it less pathetic or overpowered.

Zenako
02-20-2009, 10:28 AM
Ranged combat is far from easy to fix. I have yet to read even one suggestion on how to fix it on these forums.

So far, all I have read either made it less pathetic or overpowered.

Quite true.

Ranged combat applies to ALL characters, so anything that significantly improves the normal characters ranged attack ability, is very likely to end up overpowered in the hands of a ranged specialist (Ranger or dedicated build). Even as things stand now, take any ranged specialist and give them the right tool and they can shread mobs with little to no risk to themselves, with all of the current limitations or foibles in that attack mode. (Red names and bosses are another matter, but that is true for melee and casters as well.)

Fixes to ranged combat that only affect the specialists (like altering manyshot cooldown times for one example), will do nothing but enhance the divide between those specialists and the rest. (This may or may not be a good thing depending on your perspective on game / class / feat / skills balance.)

The issues with missing shots due to lag, is probably not something that is subject to any sort of easy fix without changing a lot of core coding, and even then, all that might happen is a reduction in the frequency of the effect. If you line your targets so that they are along the flight line of the arrow/bolt, then it is almost a non-issue. Firing across their line of motion is when the effect is more often noted, but I personally do not mind it that much, in that is effectively simulates the need to "lead the target" when the target is often moving erratically anyway.

Borror0
02-20-2009, 10:37 AM
Ranged combat applies to ALL characters, so anything that significantly improves the normal characters ranged attack ability, is very likely to end up overpowered in the hands of a ranged specialist (Ranger or dedicated build).
Umm, no, that is not even close to problematic (unless you meant player skills?).

You aim to make ranged specialist balanced, and the non specialize will be as powerful as they happen to be.

Even as things stand now, take any ranged specialist and give them the right tool and they can shread mobs with little to no risk to themselves, with all of the current limitations or foibles in that attack mode. (Red names and bosses are another matter, but that is true for melee and casters as well.)
Closer to the real problem: since ranged DPS currently does not stack with melee DPS, either ranged is underpowered or overpowered.

Either the combat style allows you to DPS without problem, or it's just a weaker form of real DPS methods like TWF and THF.

negative
02-20-2009, 10:44 AM
Closer to the real problem: since ranged DPS currently does not stack with melee DPS, either ranged is underpowered or overpowered.
It's definently worth pointing out, that even now, 1 ranged character in a group of melee does not contribute. But 4 well equiped ranged characters with a healer and arcane can dominate content, even in enclosed spaces, even given the level of gimp that ranged combat is at.

It makes it very difficult to balance. Still, I hate that I use TWF most of the time on my AA.

maddmatt70
02-20-2009, 10:56 AM
It's definently worth pointing out, that even now, 1 ranged character in a group of melee does not contribute. But 4 well equiped ranged characters with a healer and arcane can dominate content, even in enclosed spaces, even given the level of gimp that ranged combat is at.

It makes it very difficult to balance. Still, I hate that I use TWF most of the time on my AA.

I am going to disagree with you. First of all, nearly all ranged combatants if built well have some melee capabilities (my ranged character has all the twf feats - she is 14 fighter 1 bard 1 ranger). What I find my range character does well is click on manyshot and shoot the enemy in strategic situations very well. My ranged character provides an added dimension to a group and because of this strategic advantage she really enhances the group's versatility. For example in Prey of the hunter when the dragon is launching people 100s of feet away and the enemy clerics are dropping bb everywhere she just clicks on manyshot a safe distance away and either shoots the red name or clerics depending. She is also great at kiting the dragon if need be. If there is a bunch of mobs charging down the hallway even without manyshot on she can clean up with improved precise shot (ex. skellys in madstone charging down the hallways).

Borror0
02-20-2009, 11:01 AM
I am going to disagree with you.
Ranged combat is fine as is? If not, what would you change?

Thrudh
02-20-2009, 11:02 AM
It's definently worth pointing out, that even now, 1 ranged character in a group of melee does not contribute. But 4 well equiped ranged characters with a healer and arcane can dominate content, even in enclosed spaces, even given the level of gimp that ranged combat is at.

It makes it very difficult to balance. Still, I hate that I use TWF most of the time on my AA.

I did Stormcleave once with 4 rangers... We all decided to use bows for fun... taking turns with manyshot, we completely dominated that quest. I don't think anything ever got close enough to hit us.

Zenako
02-20-2009, 11:03 AM
Ranged combat is fine as is? If not, what would you change?

He was disagreeing with the assertion by negative that 1 ranged character in group does not contribute, not about certain fundamentals of ranged combat period, at least that is how I was reading it.

Zenako
02-20-2009, 11:05 AM
I did Stormcleave once with 4 rangers... We all decided to use bows for fun... taking turns with manyshot, we completely dominated that quest. I don't think anything ever got close enough to hit us.

Been there, done that with SC, Gwylans, Irestone, and even Madstone once, not to mention almost any explorer area.

negative
02-20-2009, 11:10 AM
I am going to disagree with you. First of all, nearly all ranged combatants if built well have some melee capabilities (my ranged character has all the twf feats - she is 14 fighter 1 bard 1 ranger). What I find my range character does well is click on manyshot and shoot the enemy in strategic situations very well. My ranged character provides an added dimension to a group and because of this strategic advantage she really enhances the group's versatility. For example in Prey of the hunter when the dragon is launching people 100s of feet away and the enemy clerics are dropping bb everywhere she just clicks on manyshot a safe distance away and either shoots the red name or clerics depending. She is also great at kiting the dragon if need be. If there is a bunch of mobs charging down the hallway even without manyshot on she can clean up with improved precise shot (ex. skellys in madstone charging down the hallways).
Any tempest ranger can do all that as well. Heck, the fact that your first point is to emphasize that you have the TWF doesn't say much for ranged combat.

And lets face it. If you made rangers pick a combat sytle, TWF rangers would lose very little, while ranged rangers would probalby pick the TWF style.

But if you really want it, I'll revise my statement. 1 ranged character in a group of melee does not contribute past manyshot and TWF, making them just another melee member of the group.

maddmatt70
02-20-2009, 11:40 AM
He was disagreeing with the assertion by negative that 1 ranged character in group does not contribute, not about certain fundamentals of ranged combat period, at least that is how I was reading it.


Correct ranged combatants do contribute. They do have to do some meleeing in a quest because of their dps deficiencies but they do contribute while ranging and they will provide an extra dimension if played well. I collect arrows and use arrows such as slaying arrows and +5 holy arrows. Archery in ddo is for the committed it is not for some happy go lucky guy that wants to sit there with a substandard bow and shoot arrows at all the mobs. You have to break out the special arrrows work at lining up your improved precise shot and be willing to do some meleeing. Exude versatility. I also have close to no fail heal scroll umd (someday will get no fail heal scrolls) and want to try to do what I can to help in the scroll usage end as well.

Should they improve ranged dps - the answer is yes, but they are very very afraid of making ranged combat the only way to go by over enhancing it. I think they feel if they ever did that they would kill ddo because so many people love to play melee.

Angelus_dead
02-20-2009, 11:48 AM
Closer to the real problem: since ranged DPS currently does not stack with melee DPS, either ranged is underpowered or overpowered.
I wonder if I should look around for the thread where that concept is explained. That's an important conclusion that's not 100% intuitive (because in a crude and impractical sense, they do stack additively).

Anyway, you might be interested in what some other games do: separate hate numbers to pull aggro with ranged or melee. Basically, when designing the monster you enter a number indicating how confident it is at attacking things far away from it. Most mobs are melee-brutes, so they'd have a low number (like 0.2), but those with either powerful ranged attacks or fast movement would have higher (up to possibly 1.0).

Then when creatures are deciding who to attack, the effective aggro of anything outside it's melee reach is multiplied by the ranged-confidence factor, which might mean that an archer could stand back and inflict 500 damage before pulling aggro from a paladin who'd done 100 damage.

(This can lead to a cool/funny effect: an archer does heavy damage to a boss, but doesn't pull aggro because a melee tank's DPS is keeping up with the ranged-confidence factor. But then for some reason he steps into within swing range, and the boss immediately eats him)

barecm
02-20-2009, 12:10 PM
I am reading a lot of theories of ranged combat and how hard or easy it is to fix. I have had a ranged ranger since the beginning of my account, which is basically the beginning of the game and in on beta as well (although I do not have a founders tag for whatever reason). I had played the beta ranger (the perceived over-powered ranger). That ranger from beta would have been the ideal until they broke it right before release. Then, they tried to fix it in mod 3, but wound up introducing a bigger issue, the terrain tracking bug which is the culprit for missed shots NOT lag. Now, nearly 3 years later, we are still asking for ranged combat to be fixed. No, it is not easy to fix. Yes, it should be fixed after 3 years.

You want proof that you can shoot faster and still record damage... look at your enemy's rate of fire. Have you seen how quickly drow archers shoot at you ???

So yes, this can be fixed. They choose not to. It is not a new issue. It has been brought up ad nasueum in the past. But still... NOTHING. No fix. In fact, it has been REMOVED from the known issues list. Yes Turbine we did notice you removed it! And no I am not going to stop bringing it up.

Now with mod 9 they had a chance to introduce better ammunition (which is a patch to a broken combat system) and still cannot get it done, or probably more accurate CHOSE not to do anything about it. So hurrah for +1 to our already +4 arrows. Big yippie. That should fix ranged combat.

Don't accept ranged combat being "fine as is" because it isn't. You cannot even fire as fast as your enemy.

maddmatt70
02-20-2009, 12:28 PM
I am reading a lot of theories of ranged combat and how hard or easy it is to fix. I have had a ranged ranger since the beginning of my account, which is basically the beginning of the game and in on beta as well (although I do not have a founders tag for whatever reason). I had played the beta ranger (the perceived over-powered ranger). That ranger from beta would have been the ideal until they broke it right before release. Then, they tried to fix it in mod 3, but wound up introducing a bigger issue, the terrain tracking bug which is the culprit for missed shots NOT lag. Now, nearly 3 years later, we are still asking for ranged combat to be fixed. No, it is not easy to fix. Yes, it should be fixed after 3 years.



I had heard that it was alpha where ranged combat was overpowered and not beta.

I think a part of this has always been the resources DDO has. They don't have the resources to fix every issue and are slowing down production in general. I will be quite peeved personally if we don't at LEAST see a Gianthold sized update next mod for the 4 level cap increase along with a significant number of new spells and other additions.

Ranged combat in all probability is not a simple fix because if for instance they just upped the rate of fire 30% so much in terms of balance of enemy mobs and other party members are effected, there are aggro issues, etc. Turbine's decision likely long ago was to just forgo range combat fixes. Sadly, archery is becoming dead and buried and the decision to not release even one more tier of arcane archer speaks to this.

Angelus_dead
02-20-2009, 12:51 PM
I had heard that it was alpha where ranged combat was overpowered and not beta.
In beta I was running Redwillow at level 3 with crossbows, which was a level 7 quest at the time.

barecm
02-20-2009, 09:43 PM
I had heard that it was alpha where ranged combat was overpowered and not beta.

I think a part of this has always been the resources DDO has. They don't have the resources to fix every issue and are slowing down production in general. I will be quite peeved personally if we don't at LEAST see a Gianthold sized update next mod for the 4 level cap increase along with a significant number of new spells and other additions.

Ranged combat in all probability is not a simple fix because if for instance they just upped the rate of fire 30% so much in terms of balance of enemy mobs and other party members are effected, there are aggro issues, etc. Turbine's decision likely long ago was to just forgo range combat fixes. Sadly, archery is becoming dead and buried and the decision to not release even one more tier of arcane archer speaks to this.

Alpha testing? It was beta. There were a few different versions of the beta, but beta nonetheless.