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View Full Version : Flanking and AC Dex Bonus



Nver
02-19-2009, 05:14 PM
Been playing DDO for 3 years now and I've always wondered. In PnP when you are flanked (being attacked by more then one creature) your lose your Dex Bonus to Armor Class. Is this true to DDO too.

I ask because I've noticed that my ranger with 60ish AC gets hit far more often in melee with multiple opponents then my fighter with a 50ish AC. The fighter is of course in armor, while the ranger is in a robe using +8 armor bracers and relying on 36 dex to make up the rest of her AC.

-Nver-

rimble
02-19-2009, 05:47 PM
Been playing DDO for 3 years now and I've always wondered. In PnP when you are flanked (being attacked by more then one creature) your lose your Dex Bonus to Armor Class. Is this true to DDO too.

No you don't...not in 3.5 at least...


I ask because I've noticed that my ranger with 60ish AC gets hit far more often in melee with multiple opponents then my fighter with a 50ish AC. The fighter is of course in armor, while the ranger is in a robe using +8 armor bracers and relying on 36 dex to make up the rest of her AC.

Dunno, anecdotal evidence is weird, but they should just be getting +2 to hit you.

Deathseeker
02-19-2009, 06:11 PM
Wow, that certainly would be one way to bring the AC issues between Dex and Heavy Armor wearers in line. Just apply that rule. And it could all be under the "excuse" of matching PnP.

Interesting....

Noctus
02-19-2009, 10:42 PM
Wow, that certainly would be one way to bring the AC issues between Dex and Heavy Armor wearers in line. Just apply that rule. And it could all be under the "excuse" of matching PnP.

Interesting....

No.

The OP is just wrong with his Pen&Paper rules.

Arnya
02-19-2009, 11:02 PM
No.

The OP is just wrong with his Pen&Paper rules.

IIRC the dex bonus is only lost when flatfooted, prone, helpless etc

Adding this to the game may well gimp dex based AC builds:

D20SRD:

Any situation or effect (except wearing armour) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have.

Talon_Moonshadow
02-19-2009, 11:22 PM
it amazes me that more people don't fight with their backs in a corner.

My Wiz held off an army of Ogres without SP that way....granted I was using a paralyser, but even without one you last a lot longer, by minimizing the number of attacks against you.

Nver
02-20-2009, 07:38 AM
No you don't...not in 3.5 at least...

Not sure of 3.5, was reading the 4e handbook and seen it under combat advantages. Mentioned Flanking denying a targets dex bonus.

Admittedly I could of read it wrong, I was just quickly browsing the new 4th edition books at a bookstore.

Zenako
02-20-2009, 08:28 AM
I suspect that the observational error is based on the fact that when surrounded you are subjected to many more attacks in a given period of time, and thus take more damage. That in certain AC ranges, the mobs get significant boosts in hitting you from just flanking. I know when running solo with my AC build, my simply cursing mobs (with a curspewer and giving them a -4) can make a big difference in how often mobs hit when surrounding you. Also if the class leveled mobs use the same increasning attack bonus we do, then the longer they remain attacking the more high hit bonus swings they would get too. With a single mob, it is often taken out too quickly to matter.

Flatfooted is when you lose AC. If you have Uncanny Dodge, or Improved Uncanny Dodge those situations where you are flatfooted are few and far between (if any) in DDO.

Deathseeker
02-20-2009, 08:31 AM
IIRC the dex bonus is only lost when flatfooted, prone, helpless etc

Adding this to the game may well gimp dex based AC builds:

D20SRD:

Any situation or effect (except wearing armour) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have.

Yeah, negating dodge bonuses on top of dex bonuses as well would be pretty extreme. I do think lowering AC (or further increasing the mob to-hit advantage) while flanking would add a little more positional/active requirement to combat which is a very good thing. Not saying the full dex bonus is the right answer. Maybe the other way to go is to make dodge bonuses negated from behind. In the current game that would lessen the "Icey Raiment" issue a little bit without really massively adjusting the game. I don't really like that hitting Uncanny Dodge though, so hmm....

I do like the positional/tactical focus this would emphasize, so I think its better than adding pure attack bonuses to mobs.

negative
02-20-2009, 10:15 AM
I will say I have experianced similar things to the OP in the past. And even though I know it's not true, armor based AC still seems to have an advantage over dex based AC. It certainly would be interesting if it was true.

Maybe the easiest solution is to increase the Mobs bonus to-hit when flanking, because I do find the idea of making your position/tactics more important appealing.

Deathseeker
02-20-2009, 11:32 AM
I will say I have experianced similar things to the OP in the past. And even though I know it's not true, armor based AC still seems to have an advantage over dex based AC. It certainly would be interesting if it was true.

Maybe the easiest solution is to increase the Mobs bonus to-hit when flanking, because I do find the idea of making your position/tactics more important appealing.

One thing I think that does happen a lot is when you are enfeebled and become encumbered, I believe you lose your dex bonus to AC. So some stat damage or being exhausted/enfeebled etc can bring this about on a dex based toon because they generally have lower strength (so its more likely to happen then a str based toon) and because they have more dex AC (so its much more noticable).

That's all I can think of in the current game...

baddax
03-01-2009, 05:18 PM
I suspect that the observational error is based on the fact that when surrounded you are subjected to many more attacks in a given period of time, and thus take more damage. That in certain AC ranges, the mobs get significant boosts in hitting you from just flanking. I know when running solo with my AC build, my simply cursing mobs (with a curspewer and giving them a -4) can make a big difference in how often mobs hit when surrounding you. Also if the class leveled mobs use the same increasning attack bonus we do, then the longer they remain attacking the more high hit bonus swings they would get too. With a single mob, it is often taken out too quickly to matter.

Flatfooted is when you lose AC. If you have Uncanny Dodge, or Improved Uncanny Dodge those situations where you are flatfooted are few and far between (if any) in DDO.


Yes you are probably right about the shear number of attacks and the mob flanking bonus. However it does seem to me in order to dodge an attack you have to be able to see the attack. My opinion would be that the dex bonus is a pure reflex bonus while the wisdom bonus would be more an intuitive bonus. So you would not have to actually see the attack to dodge it. This would be similar to the max dex bonus in armor where you may be able to see the attack but because of the armor restrictions you cannot avoid it.