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Deadz
02-13-2009, 12:33 PM
I'm sure this argument has happened 100 times but let me say my peace, then you can trash it all you want :).

as a married man with a newborn, i hardly get time to mmo.. now the strength of DDO is caracter creation, but.. without time, it's very hard to group alot, and it's very hard to cap a character.. you all see how many posts i have, when i started.. well this is my third account (they are like 2 bucks on cd-key sites).. and i have my first toon approaching 600 favor.. lol

what this does to me, personally.. it keeps me from trying alts and experimenting, which imo is the strength of this game, severely decreasing my "fun factor"

the favor makes sense, and the "cap" gives you that +2 tome, so people still get something, i just personally feel that the lack of 32 point builds makes me feel like my alts are "gimped" from the start.. i'm not saying they wouldn't be w/ 32 points (go ahead, giggle) but the feeling is there, decreasing my fun factor..

and

2) this would not hurt anyone in any way shape or form.. yes the hardcore say they "earned it" and everyone should as well.. but I feel this game is no longer new, and well, what's the point imo it makes more sense to put everyone on a level playing field and INCREASE the fun factor for the casuals, without DECREASING the fun factor for the rest...

Just my opinion, but i can live with trieing like heck to grind out those points to get my 32 pointer, i'd just rather roll my 32 point rogue and enjoy him :).

ArkoHighStar
02-13-2009, 12:39 PM
Personally I think overall favor rewards need a little bit of an overhaul

Drow still 400
32pt build 1000
something new at 1750
something new at 2500(when cap increases)


1000 favor points is basically guaranted for anyone who makes it up to lvl 16 these days

mediocresurgeon
02-13-2009, 12:40 PM
At one point, everyone was happy with 28-point characters. Some people still run these original 28-point characters as their main.

Really, how much of a difference does 4 points make? Speaking from experience, not much. This is easily made up with stat tomes (+2 unbound from high-level content, +1 tomes from just about anywhere, +3 bound stat tomes from raids). Usually, it's not how many stat points that character starts out with that counts, but how much a person plays any single character that matters.

DelScorcho
02-13-2009, 12:41 PM
Roll up a character that isn't really stat dependent. You'll be there in no time.

Kanamycin
02-13-2009, 12:42 PM
i have a few friends who would come back to this game if this happened, otherwise your first char is just a grind,
1000 favor is much more reasonable.

Deadz
02-13-2009, 12:46 PM
i have a few friends who would come back to this game if this happened, otherwise your first char is just a grind,
1000 favor is much more reasonable.

That is basically how i feel, that my first char is a grind..

I"m not saying 28 points you can't be just as effective.. i'm just sharing the feeling it gives this casual.. i'm finding myself more excited to tag along on a higher lvl's favor run where i can just leech favor then i am running a quest for xp..

i'm not crying "DO IT!" i'm just sharing my opinion as a casual player who's as casual as they come..

now if only i can find someone to watch my baby for the weekend so i can slug down some brews and get some of this xp / loot

Deadz
02-13-2009, 12:46 PM
Roll up a character that isn't really stat dependent. You'll be there in no time.

That's why i'm playing a cleric.. plus it solo's very well..

wamjratl1
02-13-2009, 12:47 PM
A couple of things:

28 point builds are not gimped. it's 4 points. No biggie. My original 28 pointer is still my main and hangs with some of the big boys now. Gear, tomes, playstyle, all these make those 4 points less noticeable.

Get your favor on one toon. That's all. And then they are open to you forever!

I'm in the same boat as you - wife, kids, job, not much playtime etc. and yeah it took a long time to level my first toon. I also never really focused on favor or I could have gotten it a lot faster. There are almost always favor runs going on on Ghallanda. Whatever lvl your characters are, you can join a favor group even with members with capped toons. They won't care cuz you'll be the only one losing xp (if you are a much lower level).

I like the favor thing for 32 points. It only has to be done once per account, it adds a goal to the game and gives a little something else to strive for even if you are capped.

Yeah it takes guys like you and me a little longer (esp if you like to experiment and reroll a lot) but that's the breaks. People who play more get stuff faster (not just favor but loot, flagging, xp, etc...)

seldarin
02-13-2009, 12:49 PM
At one point, everyone was happy with 28-point characters. Some people still run these original 28-point characters as their main.

Really, how much of a difference does 4 points make? Speaking from experience, not much. This is easily made up with stat tomes (+2 unbound from high-level content, +1 tomes from just about anywhere, +3 bound stat tomes from raids). Usually, it's not how many stat points that character starts out with that counts, but how much a person plays any single character that matters.

Very true. I still run my main which is a 28 pt cleric from 3 years ago. Whilst not as uber as others, which is a lot to do with gear, or not being a "BC" build or specialised build in general, still gets the job done with minimal fuss, comes down to the person pushing the buttons not the numbers.

Those extra 4 pts arent going to make or break a toon. They only partially come into play if you are making one of the elite lvl forum builds, rather than experimenting too much.

Just an idea, rather than worry too much about initial 32 pt build toons, build a scratch toon, lvl to 400 favour, roll up a drow anything, rogue, caster etc, then play them till you hit 1750. Being that favour cap is around 2800, its really not that hard evne with casual gameplay to hit 1750 in a short time span.

I am old school player and i personally advocate the earning of 32 pt toons, rather than be given, not because of my older characters, but because i dont think that everyone should be given everything on a platter right off the bat, doesnt give any incentive to progress through the game.

If you only have around 800 favour at lvl 16 it means you have been power lvlling and getting to cap in the shortest route possible, in which case i personally have no sympathy at all.

Im classed as a casual gamer myself, and have 2 toons at over 1750 favour and 2 more quite close to it, it isnt that hard even with minimal time.

If you want to play around with builds, those 4 extra pts really arent going to make or break.

Harncw
02-13-2009, 12:50 PM
well this is my third account (they are like 2 bucks on cd-key sites).. and i have my first toon approaching 600 favor.. lol

I dont see this going very well for you.
Think drow rogue :D
gratz on the baby!

negative
02-13-2009, 12:54 PM
As a founder, I'm not sure how I feel about this. 32-pt builds were not in the game originally, and due to that a number of my characters are still 28-pt. Specifically, I have 3 28-pt builds that I still play regularlly, and I honestly can't tell the difference.

Point is, I wasn't even given the option to play a single character to 1750 before I created any alts. So I have a hard time feeling bad for new players who do have that option. I'm not huge on grind, and I hate getting 1750 favor, but without a way to convert existing 28-pt builds to 32 I really can't be in favor of giving away 32-pt builds to all new players from the start.

DragonKiller
02-13-2009, 12:56 PM
2 of my 5 lvl 16's are 28 pt builds. 32 pt builds do NOT make you uber, nor do they substantially change your game play. My 28pt ORIGINAL character is able to do all end game content, even on elite with no real noticeable loss from my 32 pt builds.

Gear, and skill matter thousands of times more than does 4 points at creation.

The grass isn't greener, learn to live with it.

Deadz
02-13-2009, 12:56 PM
I dont see this going very well for you.
Think drow rogue :D
gratz on the baby!

Can i reskin it to a human or halfling? lol that would make me happy...

Kanamycin
02-13-2009, 01:05 PM
its not whether the toon is gimped or not, i have 28 pointers and 32 pointers also and can hardly tell the difference.
but i know several people who have quit because they feel like they need to achieve 32 before they actually start playing.
it is one of those things that if it were changed would be much more welcoming to new players who already have a HUGE gap between them and vets

Deadz
02-13-2009, 01:38 PM
but i know several people who have quit because they feel like they need to achieve 32 before they actually start playing.
it is one of those things that if it were changed would be much more welcoming to new players who already have a HUGE gap between them and vets

Tis' my point.. i feel the same way about having to achieve 32 points before i start playing, i know it is not true, but the feeling is "still there"

William_the_Bat
02-13-2009, 01:44 PM
I concur. Build experimentation is half the fun of the game, and there's a lot of things that are really tough to do without 32 points. Especially if you like paladins or monks, or strange multiclass builds. (cleric/rogue, anyone?)

People say those 4 points don't really make a difference, but most of my characters end up dumping constitution to get the other stats they need. (I know, bad!)

Zenako
02-13-2009, 01:45 PM
its not whether the toon is gimped or not, i have 28 pointers and 32 pointers also and can hardly tell the difference.
but i know several people who have quit because they feel like they need to achieve 32 before they actually start playing.
it is one of those things that if it were changed would be much more welcoming to new players who already have a HUGE gap between them and vets

IT would not close the gap in any measureable way. That GAP is composed of game knowledge, quest knowledge, gear and making the right choices along the way.

For any character focused on core abilities of that class those extra points amount to an almost imperceptable difference (usually just bumping up CON on many caster builds, and perhaps CHA on most melee builds for INTIM or UMD, both of which are not what I would consider beginner skills).

As some have mentioned, clerics make excellent candidates for your 1750 favor build if that is a urgent goal for you. If you actually explore most of the game and experience the range of quests in the game, it is almost hard to NOT get close to 1750 favor.

I have one 8th level cleric who I play on occasions who is closing in on 1000 favor already by doing just that. I do not run and rerun the same quests over and over again with them. Find that boring.

I would wager that most of the characters on any server are 28 point builds. That the players with all 32 point biulds at this point are the hard core players, on their 4th iteration of a build just trying to find just the right balance to do all they want to do with that build. As such normal builds are not gimped when playing with normal players (since those same tweaked builds almost guarenteed to be twinked to the gills as well, which will overshadow ANY build differences.)

Eelpout
02-13-2009, 01:47 PM
I am a somewhat casual gamer who unlocked the 32 point builds, but I still primarily play my 2 main 28 pointers. They are still fun to play, besides playstyle and gear make up a lot more ground than 4 extra build points. Yeah, 2 players with equal uberness, 32 point probably will slightly out perform, but not by much.

I definately could see it if they lowered the favor level and added some other rewards at different intervals. I don't see any need to do away with a favor requirement on the 32pt though. Maybe that is just the selfish "I had to fuss with it over a good period of time, so you should too" attitude. Part of any MMO is having things to earn and accomplish, since you can't technically "beat" the game.

Dracolich
02-13-2009, 01:58 PM
I kinda agree the 1750 is a bit of a stretch, but if it were lowered it would kinda make people who gained 1750 when there were alot less quests a bit sour. Its kinda like what SOE did with Jedi in SWG (not to say that they shouldnt have been in to begin with). They made it super hard and mysterious to unlock jedi. Then made it even harder with the XP grind. Finally they made it to where everyone could be a jedi thus cheapening the whole experience and kinda spitting on those who worked for what they wanted.

I believe if you truely want it bad enough you can get it and getting it will make you feel alot better then if the standards were lowered simply to make it easier.

Borror0
02-13-2009, 01:58 PM
Not having 32 point buy does not gimp your character, or make it hard for a new player to complete quests. For that reason, it should be a reward and not given for free.

But, as the OP noted, it keeps new player from experimenting and playing multiple alts. That's not good. There should be some mechanic to upgrade 28 pointers into 32 pointers, for free. Either when achieving 1750 favor on those characters, or when unlocking 32 pointers for that server. It was a mistake that this was not in place from the day they added the 1750 favor reward.

Sure, some might say "created a non-stat dependent character and grind it quick", but to most that's not fun. And fun is all that matters in a game.

If Turbine ever implements a character respec, it could be a way to kill two birds with the same stone.

feynman
02-13-2009, 02:03 PM
OK, assuming that this is not going to be changed, I recommend building a 28-point cleric and just work your way through the favor. I think there is a thread about the quickest way to get there (I'd look it up, but I'm lazy, and it might have been purged), but if you just work your way through the favor list starting at level one, starting your own groups when necessary (just advertise that you need a guide; clerics never have trouble getting groups), you should have it in no time.

Personally, I have two 28-point builds that I still play; sure, they could be better, and I'm bringing up a replacement for one of them, but I'm not rerolling my cleric :)

Deadz
02-13-2009, 02:07 PM
LIke i said, i personally can live with it, this is the "most" i've stuck with ddo, i'm about to hit 6 on my cleric, and will try to use the bonus xp to level a bit, making some quests easier to solo for favor, but i wanted to share my experiences and feelings on the subject, i also do understand the feeling of it should be earned, and truth be told, vanguard was Ruined for me as a mmo by a quitting player who gave me 5 plat (a ton of money in that game) as i could afford to buy all the things you grind for, so i understand the need to have goals.

I just think unbalanced creation from beginning is a bad idea in a game.. BorrorO's idea of it being retroactive would elevate this feeling, as i could still experiement as i see fit, and eventually reach the skill point cap.. that would make me pretty happy.

Deadz
02-13-2009, 02:10 PM
as a casual, i find the game really slows down solo as you lvl .. you have to really "search" out quests to do, and i'm personally locked in a feeling of having a hard time solo'ing my main, and not wanting to roll alts due to wanting to favor cap my main.. yes i heard all of your points, and they are very very valid.. but for me, it made me lose the fun factor for the game the first two times around pretty quickly.. this time i'm forcing my self to grind through it.

Arianrhod
02-13-2009, 02:11 PM
I guess it's a matter of perspective. I've been playing 3 years now, and still don't have 32-point builds, and only a few drow. I wouldn't feel "punished" if suddenly everyone got 32-point builds, nor do I feel left out now....my unwillingness to grind for ingredients to make Shroud items seems to me far more limiting than my unwillingness to grind favor for 32-point builds.

On the other hand, it seems nearly all the "fun" builds people post are designed with the assumption of 32-point builds (not to mention tomes, raid gear, crafted gear, etc.). I can see how it would create a perception among newer players in particular that until they get those things they're missing out, and even that everything they do in the process of getting those things has no value in itself, but is simply "the grind" along the way to making the character they really want. Seems a bit silly to me; I play to have fun, not to earn fun later.

Aganazer
02-13-2009, 02:15 PM
I don't think the OP is looking for some kind of consolation about 28 pt builds being 'good enough'. That is completely irrelevant. There is obviously a reason motivating everyone to spend those extra 4 points during character creation. You know you don't make new 28 pt characters so why are you feeding him that kind of BS?

It would have been fine if favor unlocked equally powerful races (half orc!) or new cosmetic upgrades. Maybe even allowing a player to permanently unlock elite mode. But making new players feel like they are inferior (even if its not a-big-deal) seems like a bad business decision. It makes the game less approachable to new players.

I must admit that I was very let down when I found out that my first character would most likely be rerolled eventually no matter how well I researched his spec.

PurdueDave
02-13-2009, 02:21 PM
Drow still 400
32pt build 1000
something new at 1750
something new at 2500(when cap increases)


I like the idea. Maybe just drop 32 down to 1000 and keep the +2 tome at 1750.

Arianrhod
02-13-2009, 02:27 PM
I don't think the OP is looking for some kind of consolation about 28 pt builds being 'good enough'. That is completely irrelevant. There is obviously a reason motivating everyone to spend those extra 4 points during character creation. You know you don't make new 28 pt characters so why are you feeding him that kind of BS?

It would have been fine if favor unlocked equally powerful races (half orc!) or new cosmetic upgrades. Maybe even allowing a player to permanently unlock elite mode. But making new players feel like they are inferior (even if its not a-big-deal) seems like a bad business decision. It makes the game less approachable to new players.

I must admit that I was very let down when I found out that my first character would most likely be rerolled eventually no matter how well I researched his spec.

I can't argue with this, it's a very valid opinion (and one that I expect is quite common among new players - and has been since 32-point builds came into the game).

However, it's also a fact that this last statement ("my first character would most likely be rerolled") has been true since the very beginning, long before 32-point builds existed. Even when there was nothing to reroll a 28-point build as other than another 28-point build, it was still commonly accepted, even expected, that pretty much everyone would eventually either reroll their first character or keep it only out of sentiment, in spite of its flaws. This is because of the complexity of the game - it's nearly impossible to "get it right" the first time, even if you discount game changes that make initial decisions less viable than they were to begin with.

Even if 32-point builds were available to everyone from the start, the only thing that would change the likelihood of a first character being rerolled would be the availability of full respecs (another can of worms, that has been even more hotly debated on the forums).

lazlow
02-13-2009, 02:28 PM
op, i feel ya but as one casual to another it was well worth it. I was truly stoked to finally get 1750 ( took 2.5 years as a casual) only happier moment was doing the dragon for the first time. Like the others said and I would agree I find no difference between the 28 and 32 ( in fact ive been a little disappointed, but its not 32 pointers anymore..dont you know its the 32pointers with +2 tomes for every stat :)) ) , the X factor here is just experience in the quests... that and some decent gear is what makes all the difference. GO on and Roll up that peck rogue and just lie and say its 32 no one will be the wiser.

laz

Eelpout
02-13-2009, 02:29 PM
I don't think the OP is looking for some kind of consolation about 28 pt builds being 'good enough'. That is completely irrelevant. There is obviously a reason motivating everyone to spend those extra 4 points during character creation. You know you don't make new 28 pt characters so why are you feeding him that kind of BS?

It would have been fine if favor unlocked equally powerful races (half orc!) or new cosmetic upgrades. Maybe even allowing a player to permanently unlock elite mode. But making new players feel like they are inferior (even if its not a-big-deal) seems like a bad business decision. It makes the game less approachable to new players.

I must admit that I was very let down when I found out that my first character would most likely be rerolled eventually no matter how well I researched his spec.

The motivating reason to use the extra 4 points once you unlock it is that you have to. Once you unlock 32 points, you have to use all the points or you can't enter the game. Yeah, very few people would leave them off if they could because the 4 extra points help to flesh out the character.

I don't think anyone is feeding him BS. It is more of a "hey, we have all been there, no big deal". If you are worried about feeling gimped from the get-go, you are better off asking for a Greensteele weapon and some +2 tomes, because I can tell you as a casual player those are a H3ll of a lot harder to get than the 1750 favor.

Thrudh
02-13-2009, 02:31 PM
32 points makes it much easier to build bizarre multi-class characters, which IS fun...

Roll up a couple of pure classes, like a cleric or a wizard or a barbarian, and you won't miss or need the extra 4 points... Drow also are a good choice for many classes (sorc or rogue or bard).

There are many different characters you can build with Drow or the default 28 points... My cleric Thrudh is a 28 point build and still going strong.

At some point you'll unlock 32 point builds, and then you can play around with the cleric/rogue or fighter/wizard builds...

DragonKiller
02-13-2009, 02:34 PM
You know, I wanted a 6 figure salary before I really started working... :rolleyes:

Sorry, I just can't understand the point of view that it's unfair if someone else had to work for something, so since they have it I should get it too with out all the work. Which is exactly what you are asking for.

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 02:42 PM
I've been a strong supporter of getting rid of the 1750 requirement for 32-point builds. The net impact of this requirement is to drive some paying customers away, that is not the outcome that was desired.

I was introduced to this game by a friend who sounds a lot like the OP. He's a build experimenter, loves to try out new classes/combinations etc. When they came out with 1750, he stopped experimenting and decided to grind out the favor... obviously, any build experimenter wouldn't want to make characters that start out less powerful than everyone else's.

Unfortunately, the grind got to him. So he resigned himself to experimenting with one race - drow. Eventually he got tired of this and left the game. A couple of times he came back, but didn't want to make more stinkin' drow builds. So he would again try to finish grinding out the favor, get bored, and leave the game again.

As it stands now, the only thing that associating 32-point builds with 1750 favor is accomplishing is to discourage new/returning players. This is a horrid decision by Turbine and one that should be reverted immediately. I really have to wonder why no one at Turbine has recognized this.

I don't care that I ground it out/"did the work" for 1750, I want all new players to have 32-point builds right off the bat.

Lithic
02-13-2009, 02:43 PM
When 32-pt characters first came out the maximum attainable favor was between 1800-1850. Now THAT was hard to do. Today you can get it by doing the lvl 10 quests and under on elite (or averaging out to every quest on hard, give or take). It's really not difficult. I know its a grind for people changing servers, but wouldnt truly new players want to enjoy as much of the game as possible, thereby doing as many quests as possible? Not to mention that many quests are very different experiences on hard/elite compared to normal.

I can see why a new player would want to unlock 32pters, but if this miniscule grind is too much then MMO's are really not for you. I wonder how many rat tails and boar tusks you need to find to max out favor in a much more popular mmo...

Deadz
02-13-2009, 02:44 PM
Sorry should not type while annoyed..

Deadz
02-13-2009, 02:48 PM
I can see why a new player would want to unlock 32pters, but if this miniscule grind is too much then MMO's are really not for you. I wonder how many rat tails and boar tusks you need to find to max out favor in a much more popular mmo...

Invalid argument, name one more mmo where you don't have the same starting stats / build points/ or whatever your character creation system uses? Calling it miniscule makes me laugh.. it's basically a grind to cap, which i'm sorry, is not miniscule when you have a few hours in game a week.

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 02:53 PM
When 32-pt characters first came out the maximum attainable favor was between 1800-1850. Now THAT was hard to do. Today you can get it by doing the lvl 10 quests and under on elite (or averaging out to every quest on hard, give or take). It's really not difficult. I know its a grind for people changing servers, but wouldnt truly new players want to enjoy as much of the game as possible, thereby doing as many quests as possible? Not to mention that many quests are very different experiences on hard/elite compared to normal.

I can see why a new player would want to unlock 32pters, but if this miniscule grind is too much then MMO's are really not for you. I wonder how many rat tails and boar tusks you need to find to max out favor in a much more popular mmo...People play this game for fun. Each person has a unique definition of what maximizes their fun. For many people, myself included, grinding is not fun at all.

Why is it that your definition of fun has to apply to others?

Will your gaming experience be adversely effected by decoupling 1750 and 32-point builds? If so, how? If not, then why do you insist that others be forced to do something they don't enjoy?

krud
02-13-2009, 02:58 PM
its not whether the toon is gimped or not, i have 28 pointers and 32 pointers also and can hardly tell the difference.
but i know several people who have quit because they feel like they need to achieve 32 before they actually start playing.
it is one of those things that if it were changed would be much more welcoming to new players who already have a HUGE gap between them and vets
Those players will always find something to be "gimped" about, whether it is real, or imaginary (such as the 28/32pt difference). A new enhancement that comes out, "I can't have it because I MC the wrong way". A new weapon, new ability, class, etc. The list goes on and on. They need to realize that their perception about what is gimp is what's the problem. I don't think Turbine needs to adjust the game to make up for some people's false notions of gimpiness.

Eelpout
02-13-2009, 02:59 PM
Invalid argument, name one more mmo where you don't have the same starting stats / build points/ or whatever your character creation system uses? Calling it miniscule makes me laugh.. it's basically a grind to cap, which i'm sorry, is not miniscule when you have a few hours in game a week.

There is not really a comparable creation system betweeen DDO and any other MMO out there. You don't assign points, stats, or any other build blocks of your character in other MMO's. You get all the same starting attributes as every other player who rolls up that same character.

I do know that there are other MMO's out there that make you hit a certain level before you can roll up unlockable classes or alternative modes of transportation.

As an addendum, I do think a revamp of the favor system is within reason. I also don't know that I would be all that worked up about 32pts given to everybody, even after spending the last 8 months trying to help a buddy who only plays 4 hours a week get to 1750.

branmakmuffin
02-13-2009, 03:00 PM
Without having read all the intervening posts, and writing as someone without access to 32-point builds, my position is that 28-point builds are the norm and not "gimped" in any way. 32-point builds are a reward for those who spend a lot of time playing and an incentive to encourage others to keep playing more, i.e., it's a marketing ploy. Give everyone 32-point builds and "poof," one of incentives to play a lot and to keep on playing a lot is gone.

Ergo, bad idea.

uhgungawa
02-13-2009, 03:02 PM
No easy buttons. If you want it, earn it like everyone else :p

krud
02-13-2009, 03:04 PM
Without having read all the intervening posts, and writing as someone without access to 32-point builds, my position is that 28-point builds are the norm and not "gimped" in any way. 32-point builds are a reward for those who spend a lot of time playing and an incentive to encourage others to keep playing more, i.e., it's a marketing ploy. Give everyone 32-point builds and "poof," one of incentives to play a lot and to keep on playing a lot is gone.

Ergo, bad idea.
/agreed

couldn't have said it better myself.

Zenako
02-13-2009, 03:04 PM
something I think that is often missed in this old discussion is that many of those builds that it frequently seems new players covet, rely on yes (32 point builds), a rack of tomes, and uber gear all lined up for when they get to the right levels.

Some of those builds actually will be weaker while growing up, until all the synergies combine, than a "normal build would be". Those builds work for the players who can level a toon in a few weeks, but for someone who is a small time available player, you might never get them to a level where those synergies kick in, unless you really change your playtime. Unless you have the gear to support those special builds, you will not experience the benefits of them.

Spending copious amounts of time running for various specific loot to support those builds takes dedicated effort at some point.

For example, lets say you want to try and build an AC based Intimtank. You will need to have certain levels of gear/armor available or all you really do is create a meat puppet / spell point sink who will probably do inferio damage than other melee builds. +5 MFP, Chaosguarde, Rings, etc all take some time to gather and until you do, the AC you hit with that build will not be good enough to do the role the base build is trying to do.

So by the time you have experienced the game and leveled a character up and hit 1750 favor, the chances of having pulled a selection of gear that you can use or can trade for items you want for a build is a lot better. Now you might have what it takes to support a real attempt at a build like that (plus you might be able to set aside a few tomes you pull along the way as well.)

I had a relative who was kinda disappointed in his 32 point builds for just this reason. He had not pulled a lot special gear along the way, and while he had good stuff, it still was falling short of being able to make a go of it, in the way he felt he wanted to be able to. Until that gear was looted, he would never hit the marks that were his goal and he got frustrated with that aspect of the builds.

alchilito
02-13-2009, 03:06 PM
Without having read all the intervening posts, and writing as someone without access to 32-point builds, my position is that 28-point builds are the norm and not "gimped" in any way. 32-point builds are a reward for those who spend a lot of time playing and an incentive to encourage others to keep playing more, i.e., it's a marketing ploy. Give everyone 32-point builds and "poof," one of incentives to play a lot and to keep on playing a lot is gone.

Ergo, bad idea.

best advice from a guy that has never seen the end game. Nice.

Deadz
02-13-2009, 03:10 PM
Well thanks for having this discussion with me and occupying the last few hours at work, i almost would pay a subscription for the forums...

Hopefully i'll see some of you argoers in game this weekend, if i can just get someone to hold the baby! I did remap my keyboard to being able to play one handed.. so i can hold my kid and play.

Zenako
02-13-2009, 03:13 PM
If you want to entertain the discussion of "Is 1750 the right point to unlock 32 point biulds?" that is another whole discussion and I think many who oppose a blanket unlock would be more accepting of a change in the benchmark.

It used to be a sign of someone who had completed almost ALL the quest in the game on Elite and it was a badge of honor and something to really strive for. With the level cap increases and more quests in the game, that distinction is no longer there.

Others have offered up new breakpoints and many of those seem reasonable.

400 for Drow (as it is now)
~1000 for 32 points (change)
1750 for a +2 bound tome (as it is now)
~2500 for perhaps a +3 bound tome? (this would give incentive for players to run other quests for favor instead of regrinding the same raids over and over on the offchance they get a RANDOM drop of a RANDOM +3 tome.)

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 03:16 PM
Without having read all the intervening posts, and writing as someone without access to 32-point builds, my position is that 28-point builds are the norm and not "gimped" in any way. 32-point builds are a reward for those who spend a lot of time playing and an incentive to encourage others to keep playing more, i.e., it's a marketing ploy. Give everyone 32-point builds and "poof," one of incentives to play a lot and to keep on playing a lot is gone.You say this as if there weren't other ways to string that carrot.

For example, a +3 or +4 tome at 1750 might provide even more "incentive to play a lot and to keep on playing a lot" than 32-point builds.

You're also ignoring the inverse effect of this "marketing ploy" - that is, that every new player is starting from a lower foothold than most of the existing players. The number of people who have left the game over this fact is certainly non-zero, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it is somewhat significant (say, 500-1000 people).

It is more than possible to create incentive to continue playing the game without widening the gap between the old guard and the new blood.

Laith
02-13-2009, 03:18 PM
32-point builds are a reward for those who spend a lot of time playing and an incentive to encourage others to keep playing more, i.e., it's a marketing ploy.sure, it acts as an incentive for people already in love with DDO.

For people that aren't already sold on pouring dozens of hours into DDO, it is often (not always, of course) off-putting.

I like the suggestion of 32pts at 1000 favor.

Aganazer
02-13-2009, 03:19 PM
No easy buttons. If you want it, earn it like everyone else :p

People can repeat content 2-3 times, return to trivial content, and 'earn' the right to be average. Or they can cancel their subscription because they don't see the point in paying to do something that they despise. Given the DDO sub numbers, I don't think we can afford to have too many people falling into the later category. If you want to see the game get regular content updates(and of course we do), then it would be in our best interest to do whatever it takes to get more people into the game.

I don't think I've seen a MMOG yet where years worth of additions didn't negate the need for some older features, mechanics, or content in some way. The same thing applies to the DDO difficulty system. Its outdated and no longer benefits the game in any way.

And its not like people are wanting to roll up a level 16 character on day one with the best gear. There is plenty to 'earn' in DDO without grinding favor.

Eelpout
02-13-2009, 03:21 PM
You say this as if there weren't other ways to string that carrot.

For example, a +3 or +4 tome at 1750 might provide even more "incentive to play a lot and to keep on playing a lot" than 32-point builds.

You're also ignoring the inverse effect of this "marketing ploy" - that is, that every new player is starting from a lower foothold than most of the existing players. The number of people who have left the game over this fact is certainly non-zero, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it is somewhat significant (say, 500-1000 people).

It is more than possible to create incentive to continue playing the game without widening the gap between the old guard and the new blood.

As a side issue though, how many new players do you think left the game because they couldn't grind out the uber loot and be competetive or because of the LFM's that say bring your vorpal/paralyzer/disrupter/smiter or p1ss off?

Borror0
02-13-2009, 03:23 PM
Give everyone 32-point builds and "poof," one of incentives to play a lot and to keep on playing a lot is gone.
Hence why I think my suggestion (if you can call it that) is a nice compromise.

Laith
02-13-2009, 03:24 PM
As a side issue though, how many new players do you think left the game because they couldn't grind out the uber loot and be competetive or because of the LFM's that say bring your vorpal/paralyzer/disrupter/smiter or p1ss off?loot rewards are a decidedly different variety than a "reward" that requires you to start over your beloved character to take advantage of it. Afterall, the situation you mention is solved by POSTING YOUR OWN LFM... or lying.

not being able to pull a disruptor isn't going to discourage you from starting that rogue you always wanted to play. Not yet having 32pters might. In fact, once a new player hits 1000+ favor, they'll have learned alot more about DDO character building. They could then be subject to a hard decision: do i like my character good enough to continue playing it until 1750? If i don't like my character anymore, is it worth toughing it out, or better to start over?

Sounds like fun.

Borror0
02-13-2009, 03:26 PM
As a side issue though, how many new players do you think left the game because they couldn't grind out the uber loot and be competetive or because of the LFM's that say bring your vorpal/paralyzer/disrupter/smiter or p1ss off?
Probably less than the number of those who left because their S&B was gimped without all the gear they could only dream about.

Then, you add the ones ****ed off when they realize that even with all that gear, their character is still weaker than a barbarian with Masterwork Toothpicks.

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 03:27 PM
As a side issue though, how many new players do you think left the game because they couldn't grind out the uber loot and be competetive or because of the LFM's that say bring your vorpal/paralyzer/disrupter/smiter or p1ss off?Before greensteel? Very few, since it didn't require grinding or a fat wallet to get uber weapons (I'm living proof of this).

Greensteel threw that out of whack, but that's a separate issue. Just because there are multiple things to discourage new players doesn't mean we shouldn't solve any of them.

Eelpout
02-13-2009, 03:29 PM
loot rewards are a decidedly different variety than a "reward" that requires you to start over your beloved character to take advantage of it. Afterall, the situation you mention is solved by POSTING YOUR OWN LFM... or lying.

not being able to pull a disruptor isn't going to discourage you from starting that rogue you always wanted to play. Not yet having 32pters might.

I realize it is all a matter of perspective, but I think playstyle and loot are a much bigger seperation factor then the 28 vs 32 pt build. Yes I wanted the 32 pt build, that and the desire to try all the quests was what drove me to do 1750 favor. I still really enjoy my 2 28pts that I play all the time. 4 more creation points wouldn't do a whole lot compared with how I spent my AP, how I play within a group, and the equipment I have.

Mithran
02-13-2009, 03:35 PM
You have enough Favor to play as a Drow. Talk to Nyx in the Harbor and roll a Wizard. Max out Intelligence, put the rest into Constitution, and go.

Laith
02-13-2009, 03:37 PM
You have enough Favor to play as a Drow. Talk to Nyx in the Harbor and roll a Wizard. Max out Intelligence, put the rest into Constitution, and go.yes, everyone here knows that the current "solution" is to get to 400, then roll a drow Wiz or Sorc until you hit 1750, then build your "real" character.

Gee, this game is awesome. I feel so rewarded.

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 03:56 PM
I realize it is all a matter of perspective, but I think playstyle and loot are a much bigger seperation factor then the 28 vs 32 pt build.Likely true. Keep in mind that some people's playstyle is to enjoy experimenting with builds with a much smaller emphasis on loot.

Why not encourage/support all playstyles?

Cap_Man
02-13-2009, 04:20 PM
Been here since head start and I have 32pt builds, but I did continue playing my original 28pt build until just recently. I Finally rerolled him to redo my skills (Diplo rocks! Who knew?) not because 32 pointers were available.

That said, if the preception of new players is that 28pt builds gimp them, then I have no problem at all with either lowering the favor required or just allowing all new players Drow and 32pt builds.

I would rather have a bunch of 32pt newbies running around than no newbies. :D

If it helps the popularity of DDO then I'm all for it.

branmakmuffin
02-13-2009, 04:23 PM
You say this as if there weren't other ways to string that carrot.

For example, a +3 or +4 tome at 1750 might provide even more "incentive to play a lot and to keep on playing a lot" than 32-point builds.

You're also ignoring the inverse effect of this "marketing ploy" - that is, that every new player is starting from a lower foothold than most of the existing players. The number of people who have left the game over this fact is certainly non-zero, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it is somewhat significant (say, 500-1000 people).

It is more than possible to create incentive to continue playing the game without widening the gap between the old guard and the new blood.
Like I wrote, I didn't read the intervening posts. All I can offer is my perspective as someone without access to 32-point builds. And, for me, it's not the least bit off-putting.

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 04:24 PM
Looking at this from a complete outsider's perspective:

Say I was looking for a new game and went to the friends&family forum I attend to ask for recommendations.

If someone were to say "DDO is pretty good, only drawback is that you start out with a less powerful character, and have no way to ever fix that character apart from delete and re-roll"...

...I'd look for another game to play.

wamjratl1
02-13-2009, 04:30 PM
Interesting to me that the "grinding for favor" keeps popping up... Doesn't grinding mean "doing the same thing over and over" to gather enough pelts or ingredients or earn whatever reward you are after? So the way the favor system is set up it actually negates a lot of the grind - you only have to do a given quest 3x max to get the total favor. It encourages players to play more of the game than just the big xp / loot quest chains.

Whoever said they see 28 pt builds as the "norm" and 32's as a reward hit it on the head I think. You do not need to re-roll your first toon after getting 32 points open. Gear, AP's, playstyle do way more for your toon than 4 xtra points. I know plenty of 28 pt builds that are very viable and deadly at end game. When you're in a group, no one knows the difference...

Favor is just like any other aspect of the game - you have to work for it to get it. To me, it's just like the folks who complain that they can't afford uber gear cuz they're casual or have never pulled a vorpal or whatever cuz they're casual. I got over that a long time ago and learned that playstyle trumps loot / build most of the time. This game still has less grind than most others from what I've heard...

And no offense to the OP but what's up with complaining about favor from someone who hasn't gotten a build past lvl 6? Is it more fun to delete a 32 point build than it is a 28 pointer? If your fun comes from re-rolling toons often then 32 vs 28 is almost meaningless...

wamjratl1
02-13-2009, 04:30 PM
sorry dbl posted...

frugal_gourmet
02-13-2009, 04:31 PM
Keep the current system, but allow 28 point builds reaching 1750 favor to "respec" their initial ability scores as 32 points.

Everyone here is unanimously in favor of "respec", right?

Right?

Is this thing on?

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 04:31 PM
Like I wrote, I didn't read the intervening posts. All I can offer is my perspective as someone without access to 32-point builds. And, for me, it's not the least bit off-putting.Not everyone can be bothered by it.

From what I've seen, most people without access to 32-point builds are a bit irked by it.

Tell me, would changing it so everyone had 32-point builds bother you? I'm guessing no.

So, you're happy the way it is now, and you'd be happy if they changed it.

Someone else is unhappy with the way it is now, and would be happy if they changed it.

Doesn't the best solution seem painfully obvious here? Can you think of any way to make it so that we see no red in the above two lines?

wamjratl1
02-13-2009, 04:34 PM
Not everyone can be bothered by it.

From what I've seen, most people without access to 32-point builds are a bit irked by it.

Tell me, would changing it so everyone had 32-point builds bother you? I'm guessing no.

So, you're happy the way it is now, and you'd be happy if they changed it.

Someone else is unhappy with the way it is now, and would be happy if they changed it.

Doesn't the best solution seem painfully obvious here? Can you think of any way to make it so that we see no red in the above two lines?

yes.;)

Impaqt
02-13-2009, 04:35 PM
/not signed.

as a mater of fact, I think they should raise the favor required to at least 2200 since we have more content today than we did when the incentive was first introduced.

then, In order to make sure I dont accidentally end up in a group with these obvoiusly gimped characters, turbine needs to give us some clear indicators....

The characters name should be a different color than anyone elses, (Both the Floaty name And the party character list) Make sure we can easily see who is the 28pt build. That way, we know who to exclude from our parties. or if we do let them in, we know who we have to keep an eye on more.. Protect em and stuff since they obviously cant defend themselves, have a terrible AC, and virtually no DPS.

For our Party LFM Creation windows, we need a checkbox that automatically declines anyone who hits my LFM with a 28pt Build.
"DING! You've been autodeclined because your gimped. Go solo some more"

If you put up an LFM with a 28pt build, your LFM should indicate that you are a newb. Maybe different text color and or background color.. I think a White background with White text would work out nicely.

Many of the more difficult quests should simply not let 28pt characters enter them on any difficulty. It only takes a single 28pt build to totally Ruin a Vision of Destruction run. Goodness. Have you ever tried to do that quest with a 28pt build in the party? dare I say Impossible? I would probably go af far as restricting access to the subterrane entirely. "Teleport Fail! You are a 28pt build"

There should be a new restriction put into the game for weapons and Items. BR:32 This will lower the Minimum level for equipping the item by Half, but can only be used by 32 point builds.

I think these few minor changes would greatly improve MY gaming experience.

Zenako
02-13-2009, 04:36 PM
Looking at this from a complete outsider's perspective:

Say I was looking for a new game and went to the friends&family forum I attend to ask for recommendations.

If someone were to say "DDO is pretty good, only drawback is that you start out with a less powerful character, and have no way to ever fix that character apart from delete and re-roll"...

...I'd look for another game to play.

Or you could describe the same process as: "DDO is pretty good, with the FEATUE that after you play your first character a while and experience the game, you can unlock the bonus of being able to roll up a enhanced character that will allow you some creative advanced character options".

wamjratl1
02-13-2009, 04:37 PM
Keep the current system, but allow 28 point builds reaching 1750 favor to "respec" their initial ability scores as 32 points.

Everyone here is unanimously in favor of "respec", right?

Right?

Is this thing on?

I like this idea the best I tihnk. Just give folks 4 ability points when they hit their favor. Would solve the re-roll issue (which I'm worried about but maybe not in the majority and hey who doesn't like ability points?). This would aslo keep the favor system as something that encourages players to do more than than just the big xp quests.

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 04:37 PM
Interesting to me that the "grinding for favor" keeps popping up... Doesn't grinding mean "doing the same thing over and over" to gather enough pelts or ingredients or earn whatever reward you are after? So the way the favor system is set up it actually negates a lot of the grind - you only have to do a given quest 3x max to get the total favor. It encourages players to play more of the game than just the big xp / loot quest chains.If you don't want to call it a grind, fine. Call it "an aspect of the game that many don't enjoy".


Whoever said they see 28 pt builds as the "norm" and 32's as a reward hit it on the head I think. You do not need to re-roll your first toon after getting 32 points open. Gear, AP's, playstyle do way more for your toon than 4 xtra points. I know plenty of 28 pt builds that are very viable and deadly at end game. When you're in a group, no one knows the difference...Oh, I dunno, my 28-pt barbarian wouldn't mind having those extra stat points. Would have given him enough dex to TWF once Turbine changed the game to the point where TWF > THF.

And people do notice. Like, you know, every time someone asks why I'm wielding a greataxe.

Luckily, THF barbs aren't as gimpy as many would have you believe.


This game still has less grind than most others from what I've heard...Most people consider the "less grind" aspect of DDO to be good. In fact, not once have I ever heard a "grind" referred to in a positive way. Would it really be so bad if DDO became even less "grind-y"?

wamjratl1
02-13-2009, 04:39 PM
Or you could describe the same process as: "DDO is pretty good, with the FEATUE that after you play your first character a while and experience the game, you can unlock the bonus of being able to roll up a enhanced character that will allow you some creative advanced character options".

Z you are a real "glass half full" kinda guy aren't you! yes, it's all about perspective...

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 04:40 PM
Or you could describe the same process as: "DDO is pretty good, with the FEATUE that after you play your first character a while and experience the game, you can unlock the bonus of being able to roll up a enhanced character that will allow you some creative advanced character options".lol

Good luck finding someone willing to describe a grind as a positive feature.

Even if you tried to present it this way, anyone with half a brain would immediately arrive at the following question: "Wait, you mean that when I start out, DDO purposely handicaps me in relation to other players?"

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 04:41 PM
Keep the current system, but allow 28 point builds reaching 1750 favor to "respec" their initial ability scores as 32 points.

Everyone here is unanimously in favor of "respec", right?

Right?

Is this thing on?I'd see this as an acceptable, but not optimal, solution.

wamjratl1
02-13-2009, 04:49 PM
If you don't want to call it a grind, fine. Call it "an aspect of the game that many don't enjoy". I think it's too bad folks don't enjoy doing a lot of different quests and enjoying all this game has to offer.

Oh, I dunno, my 28-pt barbarian wouldn't mind having those extra stat points. Would have given him enough dex to TWF once Turbine changed the game to the point where TWF > THF. And then when they nerf that we'll all want more points to fix our broken builds... Who doesn't want more stat points? I do! But getting favor was not so awful to get them...

And people do notice. Like, you know, every time someone asks why I'm wielding a greataxe. Maybe they just want to get to know you.

Luckily, THF barbs aren't as gimpy as many would have you believe. I know many who are quite deadly. Many of them are 28 pt builds:eek: One's even a girl :cool:

Most people consider the "less grind" aspect of DDO to be good. In fact, not once have I ever heard a "grind" referred to in a positive way. Would it really be so bad if DDO became even less "grind-y"?No it certainly would not. I need scales and it sux when I don't get them. But getting my favor was a blast!

red

frugal_gourmet
02-13-2009, 04:51 PM
I'd see this as an acceptable, but not optimal, solution.

What would be optimal?

wamjratl1
02-13-2009, 04:54 PM
lol

Good luck finding someone willing to describe a grind as a positive feature.

Even if you tried to present it this way, anyone with half a brain would immediately arrive at the following question: "Wait, you mean that when I start out, DDO purposely handicaps me in relation to other players?"

Legit question here: In PnP, how many build points do you get to start a character?

frugal_gourmet
02-13-2009, 04:56 PM
Legit question here: In PnP, how many build points do you get to start a character?

Depends on the Dungeon Master. Most traditionally, you roll for abilities actually. With dice. This obviously wouldn't work in on online game, though, because people would keep throwing away builds until they got the best.

wamjratl1
02-13-2009, 04:58 PM
Depends on the Dungeon Master. Most traditionally, you roll for abilities actually. With dice. This obviously wouldn't work in on online game, though, because people would keep throwing away builds until they got the best.

ahhhh ok. Thanks.

frugal_gourmet
02-13-2009, 05:01 PM
ahhhh ok. Thanks.

Nowadays point buy systems are extremely common, but the number of points given just depends on what kind of campaign the DM wants to run. If he wants the characters to be like somewhat above average people who try to adventure, he picks a low amount. If he wants the characters to be quite exceptional, he gives more.

Impaqt
02-13-2009, 05:08 PM
Depends on the Dungeon Master. Most traditionally, you roll for abilities actually. With dice. This obviously wouldn't work in on online game, though, because people would keep throwing away builds until they got the best.

Not quite that Simplistic... The Point Buy system DDO Uses is a Valid Option for the 3.5 Ruleset.

Pretty sure the die rolling w/ 3.5 is 4d6 and Drop the lowest die 6 Times. Arrange those 6 results as you see fit.

frugal_gourmet
02-13-2009, 05:13 PM
Not quite that Simplistic... The Point Buy system DDO Uses is a Valid Option for the 3.5 Ruleset.

Pretty sure the die rolling w/ 3.5 is 4d6 and Drop the lowest die 6 Times. Arrange those 6 results as you see fit.

I think what I said was pretty compatible with this.
:)

branmakmuffin
02-13-2009, 05:16 PM
Tell me, would changing it so everyone had 32-point builds bother you? I'm guessing no.
You're guessing wrong. DDO is not, as Dennis the peasant put it, "an anarcho-syndicalist commune." And we do not "take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week." If you give everyone 32-point builds, where do we go from there, offer 36-point builds for those with high favor? That sort of escalation leads to a game which will be even more Monty Haul than it already is.

Kanamycin
02-13-2009, 05:22 PM
I've been a strong supporter of getting rid of the 1750 requirement for 32-point builds. The net impact of this requirement is to drive some paying customers away, that is not the outcome that was desired.

I was introduced to this game by a friend who sounds a lot like the OP. He's a build experimenter, loves to try out new classes/combinations etc. When they came out with 1750, he stopped experimenting and decided to grind out the favor... obviously, any build experimenter wouldn't want to make characters that start out less powerful than everyone else's.

Unfortunately, the grind got to him. So he resigned himself to experimenting with one race - drow. Eventually he got tired of this and left the game. A couple of times he came back, but didn't want to make more stinkin' drow builds. So he would again try to finish grinding out the favor, get bored, and leave the game again.

As it stands now, the only thing that associating 32-point builds with 1750 favor is accomplishing is to discourage new/returning players. This is a horrid decision by Turbine and one that should be reverted immediately. I really have to wonder why no one at Turbine has recognized this.

I don't care that I ground it out/"did the work" for 1750, I want all new players to have 32-point builds right off the bat.

This is precisely what happened to 2 of my friends, and no it does not gimp you to be a 28 point build , but it does gimp our game to lose people because of this.
how many vets would leave because they lowered the favor needed ? versus how many would return because they lowered the favor ?

Aganazer
02-13-2009, 05:29 PM
You're guessing wrong. DDO is not, as Dennis the peasant put it, "an anarcho-syndicalist commune." And we do not "take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week." If you give everyone 32-point builds, where do we go from there, offer 36-point builds for those with high favor? That sort of escalation leads to a game which will be even more Monty Haul than it already is.

Where do we go from there? Isn't it obvious? Add more levels and more content. There are already perks for favor. Those are enough.

EDIT: Out of the five people who started the game with me, one of them dropped out after the relatively easy Drow grind. Had we not felt compelled to 'keep up with the Jones' he might still be an active paying subscriber. So in my case, this design decision cost Turbine 20% of their potential income.

branmakmuffin
02-13-2009, 05:43 PM
Where do we go from there? Isn't it obvious? Add more levels and more content. There are already perks for favor. Those are enough.
You say that like "more levels and more content" necessarily require "higher point value characters." Or maybe you're saying it the other way 'round. In any event, the last thing the game needs is more power inflation.

Girevik
02-13-2009, 06:04 PM
In my opinion, favor rewards should be a benefit to the character that earned them. They are best as "out of combat" rewards, such as the Phiarlan (sp?) Pendant of Time, but they are acceptable as "in combat" boosts, such as the Argonessan (sp?) hit points.

I am absolutely against the "unlocks something on your account" concept. The only exception might be a way to unlock a lowbie experience boost. (Similar to the mechanic in DAoC where once one character hits level 50, you can automatically raise other characters to level 20.)

I am 100% against having both 28 point and 32 point builds in the game and really wish they would do away with the 28 point builds altogether.

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 06:38 PM
redLook, I appreciate that you enjoyed the favor grind... but you're losing me on the logic that because you like it, everyone else should.

Really, trying to compare this to things like dragon scales is ridiculous. Yes, they're both a grind... but not having dragon scales at birth doesn't "gimp" you for life.

Think about it: how many have all the scales they need when they roll? Very few, not that it matters, since once the character levels up he/she can get their own if so desired. How many have 32 point builds when they roll? Many, very likely a strong majority. But this is not something that can be corrected down the road.

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 06:39 PM
What would be optimal?IMO, getting rid of 28-point builds altogether.

(My problem with your solution is that while it does fix the problem by leveling the playing field, it still strikes me as something that is a bit discouraging to new players).

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 06:40 PM
Legit question here: In PnP, how many build points do you get to start a character?Last time I played PnP, I had to roll my stats.

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 06:47 PM
You're guessing wrong. DDO is not, as Dennis the peasant put it, "an anarcho-syndicalist commune." And we do not "take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week." If you give everyone 32-point builds, where do we go from there, offer 36-point builds for those with high favor? That sort of escalation leads to a game which will be even more Monty Haul than it already is.I suppose what I meant to ask is "would it impact your play experience". And the obvious answer there is no, it would not.

As far as "where do we go from there", that's for Turbine to decide, but I would highly recommend staying far, far away from awards that change the rules you started playing with (such as opening up builds with more points).

Look, a lot of you can continue to deny it, but if you think the 1750 favor setup is good for the long term health of the game, you're flat-out wrong. Anything that so blatantly discourages new blood from even trying the game is, simply put, a horrid idea. Another example might be the grandfathering of crit rage... an absolutely horrible idea.

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 06:49 PM
how many vets would leave because they lowered the favor needed ? versus how many would return because they lowered the favor ?Exactly. I have yet to see one person say "if they give 32 point builds to everyone, I'll quit". Even if someone did come out and say it, I'd have trouble believing it (and, of course, if I were wrong and they did leave, I think our game might be better without that type running amok).

Yet there are plenty of examples of people who have left, or (even worse) never started the game as a result of this setup.

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 06:51 PM
In my opinion, favor rewards should be a benefit to the character that earned them.An excellent solution, IMO.

darkrhavyn
02-13-2009, 07:06 PM
I can understand a bit of your frustration in that if all you hear from players is that 32 pt builds are the ONLY way to go...it might seem like the game doesnt really start until you unlock that prize.

From my persepective though there are a couple of problems with just letting everyone have access to 32 pt builds from the start:

1) It really is a slap in the face to those of us who worked to unlock 1750 when the number of the quests in the game essentially required you to do every quest through level 9 on elite + some of the 10s 11 and 12s.

2) There is a value to making you do enough quests to get to 1750---you actually have to play the game... hopefully that lets you learn how to play your character well in that time...I see alot of new players who are level 12+ who really dont understand the power of their characters or how to adapt when something goes wrong in a quest....Playing more--particularly doing those often avoided quests, actually teaches you to be a better player.

3) Listen to what alot of us are saying...after 3 years I am STILL playing my original 28 point cleric and wizard. Do I have 32 pt characters-- sure, but most of them are multiclass unusual builds I made to try something new....the real difference in the truly great characters and the mediocre ones is 10-20% gear and 80-90% the players SKILL and EXPERIENCE.

4) I'm sure that not having 32pts open does cause some people to give up or feel like its a grind...but those 4 points are not going to make a difference if a player doesnt learn how to play the game itself...a good player can play a truly gimped stat character and do fine....a bad player will suck with even the best build and gear.

Strakeln
02-13-2009, 07:33 PM
1) It really is a slap in the face to those of us who worked to unlock 1750 when the number of the quests in the game essentially required you to do every quest through level 9 on elite + some of the 10s 11 and 12s.I disagree, but for sake of argument, I'll pretend that I agree, and say the following: Since when has a slap in the face ever stopped Turbine from making "necessary" changes to the game? My Ranger/Rog felt slapped in the face when they introduced Tempest and started talking about STWF. Due to a combination of BaB concerns and feat needs, I splashed a level of fighter to squeeze in Tempest. Of course, this was a minor slap in the face compared to the one that she felt when they introduced the monk class later on (still with no respec). If she'd been able to take monk instead of fighter... ah, well, you know.

The point here is, someone will feel slapped in the face no matter what Turbine does. Slap a veteran like me and I complain about it on the forums. Slap a new player and the result will likely be a complaint... in another game's forums.


2) There is a value to making you do enough quests to get to 1750---you actually have to play the game... hopefully that lets you learn how to play your character well in that time...I see alot of new players who are level 12+ who really dont understand the power of their characters or how to adapt when something goes wrong in a quest....Playing more--particularly doing those often avoided quests, actually teaches you to be a better player.I'm sure we could put our heads together and come up with another carrot to replace 32-point buys. Off the top of my head:

- A +3 or +4 tome
- A full respec token
- An ability to gain a 50% XP bonus up til level 10 for lowbies

I don't think anyone could argue that these would be insufficient carrots.


3) Listen to what alot of us are saying...after 3 years I am STILL playing my original 28 point cleric and wizard. Do I have 32 pt characters-- sure, but most of them are multiclass unusual builds I made to try something new....the real difference in the truly great characters and the mediocre ones is 10-20% gear and 80-90% the players SKILL and EXPERIENCE.I play my 28-point build all the time. Not a day goes by that I didn't wish I could gain those 4 stat points without losing the mountains of gear I have on him.

And as you indirectly pointed out, a lot of highly effective builds (typically MC) require 32 points to be as effective as they are.


4) I'm sure that not having 32pts open does cause some people to give up or feel like its a grind...but those 4 points are not going to make a difference if a player doesnt learn how to play the game itself...a good player can play a truly gimped stat character and do fine....a bad player will suck with even the best build and gear.The friend I used as an example is an excellent player, the measure of a player's skill doesn't come from their patron log.

Heck, until two days ago, only one of my characters had 1750 favor.

My friend plays differently than others. He likes to experiment at low levels with builds until he finds one he likes, then will play the game start->finish. He's essentially required to play the game all the way through once before he can make a build he'll be happy with.

darkrhavyn
02-13-2009, 09:33 PM
Personally it doesnt really matter to me that I had to do it the "hard way"...but it does to some thus why I listed my first point.

I tend to think that a person will make a better player if they learn to play a relatively simple build well first before trying some complicated MC build....if they dont understand the mechanics of why they are multiclassing but simply copy the build of the month in the long run they will be hurt by changes in the game mechanic.


Im also trying to show that the attitude that 28 pt builds are gimps is simply false...I can honestly say the an extra four points to Cia's or Dari's build stats would make very little difference to them...possibly a few more hp or at most +1 to a DC for Cia since she actually started with fairly balanced stats to begin.

Maybe if we didnt have so many people preaching that 32pt builds are the only way to play...people wouldnt feel like they are being handicapped by not having them.


The base build its a 28 pt build....the extra 4 points at build are NOT game breaking for anyone...and personally I would rather that people learned to play a character well before they start trying out weird builds so that they develope the skills needed to play ANY character

Now if people wanted to have Drow from the beginning...that would make more sense to me....since honestly there are some classes that are going to have better stats as a Drow than any 32pt build of another race.....thats why Drow dont get the +4 bonus...they already are essentially 32pt characters.

Alot of people may not remember this...but when Drow were introduced they unbalanced the game....there are classes (rogue,sorc,wizard in particular and even paladin to a degree) where a Drow, even with their low starting CON, are going to be able to get starting stats unobtainable by a 28 pt build. The 32pt reward was a way to balance that out.

Strakeln
02-14-2009, 12:59 AM
Im also trying to show that the attitude that 28 pt builds are gimps is simply false...I can honestly say the an extra four points to Cia's or Dari's build stats would make very little difference to them...possibly a few more hp or at most +1 to a DC for Cia since she actually started with fairly balanced stats to begin.32 point builds have less of an impact on casters than they do on melee. Even a pure barb has to be concerned with at least three stats: Dex for TWF, Con for HP and Rage duration, Str for obvious reasons. Casters need only concern themselves with one stat.

Out of curiosity, what race(s) are Cia and Dari?

FluffyCalico
02-14-2009, 01:06 AM
Not having 32 point buy does not gimp your character, or make it hard for a new player to complete quests. For that reason, it should be a reward and not given for free.



No this has been said a 100 times. Rep rewards should reward the character with the rep not future characters with no rep. It's like saying you go earn tons of rep and become the hero of the world and get squat for it but your consin's sister's brother gets great reward. Just plain no.

Arianrhod
02-14-2009, 07:31 AM
OK, I know the "work for it" crowd will disagree, but have to throw it out anyway -

How about:

All characters (except drow) start with 32-point builds

1750 favor earns a +3 tome

Level 20 earns the OPTION of starting new characters at level 10 (chosen individually for each new character)

All existing characters get the appropriate changes applied when the rule goes into effect (extra build points, to be used at login, +3 tome to be granted on speaking with the favor rep, training token to be turned in to the trainer for enough exp to level to 10).

Kalari
02-14-2009, 07:54 AM
I said it before my main is still my admittedly gimpy 28 pt build elven wizard. Ive heard things like "elves arent viable as wizards" and at 28 pts omg I must look like a nightmare to most uber players. But Kal not only has been fun to play due to the challenge of playing such a squishy build. Ive gotten her well over 1750 favor something ive seen people who play the flavor of the months struggle to get. Heck I dont think ive even broken that on my cleric who has done most of the raids as well.

The thing I learned as someone who plays with limited time is just enjoy the game. That 1750 came without me struggling for it or even paying attention to it. Having fun people taking me around on quests and raids and having a good time got me to 1750 fast. Watching it and hoping to unlock 32 pt builds would have slowed it down to me.

The last time this was brought up I argued with the topic starter of that thread not only because I felt he was coming across as saying 28 pointers are obsolete, but because it really would not be fair to everyone who has felt the need to push for 32 pointers and then deleted and rerolled their characters just to build a more optimal build. But I think if they did impliment something like this as long as those people who have had to go threw that get a benefit as well I wouldnt balk so much.

But to just give out 32 point builds would suck I felt like I earned mine even though I wasnt looking for it and when I got my +2 tome I was greatful to all the fun people who helped me get there without worries. I think as Arko put if they implimented a new tier system for people who care about favor rewards then I could get on ball with them starting builds with 32 pts. But to me grinding for favor is that a grind I grind at work I play ddo to have fun for a few hours here and there.

Damionic
02-14-2009, 08:17 AM
Yep as I've just came over from DDO EU Devourer (keeper is for leet newbs :) )

I have to start a fresh..but even before my main is a 28 build..Im not going to trash several months of playing for 4 points!

Its not Rocket Science

Roll your main
Favour to drow
Roll your drows (as they are not effected by the 1750 mark)
Favour your main to 1750
Roll the rest.

Have fun.

P.s you might call my Elec/Acid Nuke Elf Wizard (main) a Noob..but he's been my main from Baldur's Gate/BG 2 Icewind Dale/ID2/Neverwinter Nights/Nwn2 through to now and I like him!

Borror0
02-14-2009, 09:12 AM
No this has been said a 100 times. Rep rewards should reward the character with the rep not future characters with no rep. It's like saying you go earn tons of rep and become the hero of the world and get squat for it but your consin's sister's brother gets great reward. Just plain no.
You did bother reading what was reading after, did you?

Because I left the door open to that. Your reading comprehension skills are lacking, or you've got an extremely short attention.

WestiesMA
02-14-2009, 09:39 AM
My main is my original 28-point build character that I rolled right after beta. Just don't tell anyone that your toons are 28-point builds - they will never know!

Pyromaniac
02-14-2009, 09:57 AM
Not having 32 point buy does not gimp your character, or make it hard for a new player to complete quests...

There should be some mechanic to upgrade 28 pointers into 32 pointers, for free.

Exactly what I was thinking. My main character is a 28 point created day one toon. And he's not gimp, in fact he can run with anybody at end game.

Now it would be a nice idea to have your 28 point character change to 32 point once you achieve the favor. And if Turbine was really wanting us to run favor - all toons could be 28 point until they reached say 1000 favor, when they get to go 32 point.

But whatever happens, treat existing 28 point characters fairly, don't leave us as 28 point while giving all new characters 32 point.

krud
02-14-2009, 09:57 AM
Where do we go from there? Isn't it obvious? Add more levels and more content. There are already perks for favor. Those are enough.

EDIT: Out of the five people who started the game with me, one of them dropped out after the relatively easy Drow grind. Had we not felt compelled to 'keep up with the Jones' he might still be an active paying subscriber. So in my case, this design decision cost Turbine 20% of their potential income.
You can include any aspect of the game that involves a grind as driving people away. How is the shroud grind or any other raid loot grind any different than the favor grind? I happen to dislike the loot grind much more than the favor grind. I came very close to quitting over the loot grind for much the same reasons your friends quit over the favor grind. Shall we remove all grinds to make everyone happy? We'd all become just as unhappy with the lack of rewards, or anything else to do. At least with the favor grind (if you can still call it much of a grind) you get to experience a large portion of the quests DDO has to offer. All the other grinds just keep returning you to the same place over and over again.

redoubt
02-14-2009, 10:08 AM
A few thoughts about 32pt builds and favor (some more related than others):

1. How many new players build their character right the first time? Or for that matter discover that they like something else better?

2. 400 favor gets you drow. Sure, not every build works its best on drow. However, it is a good stepping stone.
2a. Make a character.
2b. Get 400 favor while learning to play the game.
2c. Make a drow character if you want more than 28 build points.
2d. Use this new character to get your 1750. (If its a drow, the tome reward and anything you get while earning your favor are their to stay because there is no reason to reroll a drow once you have the 1750 favor.)

3. 1750, to me anyway, seems just high enough to need to work at it a little, but it is nothing like getting it back at the level 10 cap (I think that was it, maybe it was 12). There are so many quests in game today that you can skip entire regions and still get the favor. For example, my bard skipped the orchard, the desert and most of the necropolis and still got his favor tome (and it was before the new quests in three barrel cove were added.)

4. As others have said, there are a lot of good 28 point builds out there. One guy in my guild has a cleric who is very highly regarded on our server that is a 28pt build. And another guild mate has is original 28pt WF barbarian, when things go bad, he is usually the last one standing.

5. Almost forgot to mention this one. I run favor on all my characters. It provides a lot of diversity in the quests I run. I generally level without repeating very many quest. I run a few on n/h/e and the others I just open direct on elite and move on. Plenty of XP to be had and you run all the quests and not just a few. Granted this is a playstyle preference.

Just a few thoughts, as I said. :D

Thanimal
02-14-2009, 10:24 AM
I'm kind of laughing at so many people saying how easy it is to get 1750 favor. That might be true if you pick one character and stay on it, but if you play games in a experimental style, like both I and (apparently) the OP do, 1750 is waay out there.

In fact, I am perversely glad that it is 1750 not 1000, because 1750 is so obviously out of reach that I don't give 32 points a second thought. I've been playing this game for over 2 years, and I have probably built 30 characters, and the highest favor any of them ever got to was about 900.

I mildly agree with the OP that the game would be a little better with a change, but pesonally my solution would be a little more radical: get rid of 32 point builds. I am really confused about them as a reward, actually. So you've played the game a ton, you're getting really expert at it, and then the game gets EASIER? This would be like the pros playing basketball on a 9 ft hoop. It seems like a totally unfun reward to me. After getting that expert, you need more challenge, not less!

In my opinion, this is fundamentally different from other rewards of advancement, which all make THAT character better. Seeing your character progress and become more powerful is a big part of the fun of this style of game. But the 32-point build is orthogonal to this: in fact it is the aforementioned Easy Button: making the game easier, as opposed to a reward for a particular character's efforts.

Out of curiosity, do some people feel the game has become more fun as a result of 32-point builds being added? Can you tell me why? I know it's hard to explain why something is or isn't more fun, but please try! I think this will be very valuable feedback to Turbine, and I am personally quite curious.

Borror0
02-14-2009, 10:38 AM
I mildly agree with the OP that the game would be a little better with a change, but pesonally my solution would be a little more radical: get rid of 32 point builds. I am really confused about them as a reward, actually. So you've played the game a ton, you're getting really expert at it, and then the game gets EASIER?
Apply the same logic to loot. Reword that question and put the word loot instead of 32 point builds.

Does it look logical to you?

The real fix to this problem is to give players a way to upgrade their 28 pointer into a 32 pointer, if possible without having to reroll (since its kinda lame to have to regrind XP for his character, even more if you don't play all that much). It will solve the problem and will keep 1750 as a reward.

After getting that expert, you need more challenge, not less!
Of, sure. People are going to put effort into making their character worse.

Actually, maybe. That's the Turbine way of doing things. You have finally reached 15 BAB? You thought you would deal more DPS? Well, you were wrong!

Out of curiosity, do some people feel the game has become more fun as a result of 32-point builds being added?
Allows you to make wackier and/or more stat dependent builds. That's a major one.

krud
02-14-2009, 11:05 AM
i'm just sharing my opinion as a casual player who's as casual as they come..
You have a powergamer mentality with limited play time. A casual gamer wouldn't sweat those 4 build points.

Three accounts and not one character abovel level 6? Getting those extra 4 build points won't change anything. Obsessive rerollers will always be obsessive rerollers. You aren't even reaching the point where those extra build points will really matter. All of a sudden with 32pts you will grind the xp to cap? Grind for loot? Grind for ingredients? Unlikely. All this does is give a temporary reprieve to those who will most likely quit anyway over whatever grind it is they don't like.

Besides, with so many rerolls under 6, how many times have you run the same quests over and over? That is not a grind?

I would be in favor of having total server favor go towards unlocking 32pt builds, and keep tomes as individual favor rewards. You get total server favor for completing quests on any one of your characters. No overlapping favor (i.e. quests only count once toward total server favor, even if you have done the same quest on multiple characters). This way you don't have to grind only one character to get it. You just need to explore the content once with any one of your characters to earn the favor toward 32 builds. This might make it slightly easier on obsessive rerollers and experimenters, yet keep the idea that you must still explore a majority of the content to earn the favor. Of course, an obsessive reroller will complain that they now have multiple toons that need to be rerolled instead of just one. :(

Deadz
02-14-2009, 11:22 AM
It's not about this casual rerolling three accounts --first two are not used its 2 bucks to start over..

my initial opinion is about the illusion it creates not about the gameplay facts. notice the word feel being littered throughout my posts.

note:
typing onehanded while holding my kid is tough but she is lovin g listening to the velvet underground and the who on my comp, what a good kid....

Deadz
02-14-2009, 11:25 AM
You have a powergamer mentality with limited play time. A casual gamer wouldn't sweat those 4 build points.

:(


alot of casuals do.. it ain't just me

Fenrisulven6
02-14-2009, 11:42 AM
i have a few friends who would come back to this game if this happened, otherwise your first char is just a grind,
1000 favor is much more reasonable.

/signed

Just did this. As a new player, you quickly realize you made mistakes designing the first toon - its rarely in sync with the game mechanics [who would have thought Sneak would be so useless in group play?]

So the goal becomes hitting 1750 favor so you can reroll your prime and begin your stable of 32 point builds. You grind and zerg and don't really get to know the quests. It leads to experiences that I don't think are favorable to retaining an incoming new player pool. For that alone, it should be ditched - all players start with 32 pt builds.


A casual gamer wouldn't sweat those 4 build points.

Maybe you wouldn't. For me, those extra 4 points were needed to turn my trapmonkey into a DPS rogue.

krud
02-14-2009, 11:47 AM
alot of casuals do.. it ain't just me
Those two are irreconcilable, because there is always some kind of grind involved in being a powergamer, whether it be favor, xp, or loot. You just happen to dislike one of them. I happen to not like the loot grind. I want to make an uber TWF monk splash, but can't be bothered with the grind for the icy raiments, or a shroud item for that matter. Can I just have one? It's pretty much required if I want him to be the best he can be. It would make the enjoyment of the character so much better. It won't hurt anyone else's enjoyment of the game, and can only increase mine. Since I really dislike the loot grind, and that's all there is left in the game, it will help me stick around and enjoy the game longer. How is that request any different?

darkrhavyn
02-14-2009, 11:50 AM
32 point builds have less of an impact on casters than they do on melee. Even a pure barb has to be concerned with at least three stats: Dex for TWF, Con for HP and Rage duration, Str for obvious reasons. Casters need only concern themselves with one stat.

Out of curiosity, what race(s) are Cia and Dari?

Cia and Dari are elves. Riasha is a drow as is Kestryl. I have a Human "batman" that I love who is ..you guessed it.. a 28 pt build. I primarily play elves/drow just because I still have a role playing history for all my characters whether or not I get to actually role play in game.

I think the difference is for me that I build balanced characters in general..Kes is probably the most "min/maxed" character I have...so I guess those four points dont really worry me for most of my builds.

Quite honestly the best DPS character I have ever seen was a 28 pt (there were no 32pt characters then) fighter. He and his wife quit playing after Mod 3 but Mem was amazing...and I would wager that he still would be now since I know the only other 2 dwarves that could ever beat him from time to time still play with those same "gimped" characters.:)

Borror0
02-14-2009, 12:05 PM
All this does is give a temporary reprieve to those who will most likely quit anyway over whatever grind it is they don't like.
That's fallacious. More often than not, a decision to leave is based off multiple factors.

The reasoning that something should be left there because it will only be "a temporary reprieve to those who will most likely quit anyway" could be used for about anything, but gamebreaking bugs and lag. Also, your reasoning assumes that all grind is necessary and that it cannot be lessened in any way AND that the rewards for that grind are perfectly balanced.

Deadz
02-14-2009, 12:06 PM
It's the mechanic of having to play x toon to make Y toon better is offputting to new players..

It has 0 benifit.. I have seen people say 28 point builds are just as good as 32 point builds, and it's more the player and the gear, and you know what i 100% AGREE with that..

but it doesn't change the feeling it leaves some new players with

And it doesn't have any benfit to older players..

So, what IS THE POINT?????

Let me add for the 100% time i'm living with the way it is.. i'm enjoying my cleric alot.. it's that i, and alot of other newish players would love to start experimenting with tons of builds, but are left with the FEELING of having to grind to 1750 FIRST to enjoy ALTS is a HORRIBLE mechanic to the game..

Made sense when the game started, as it was a way to make people play through the game twice when there was little content, but by now, the people who have 10 alts are obviously hooked...

People miss one fact about DDO.. there really is no HARDCORE content.. none.. the largest raids are very small by mmo standards, you can see all the content casually.. very easily.. besides building a toon, this is a realtively narrow mmo, there is little itemization, itemization is almost along the lines of a single player game.. hense why they put in the 1750 favor 32 point builds, to try to get people to play through the limited content and gear twice.. but 3 years after release.. it's a moot point, the focus (we have seen w/ NPE) is about keeping people, so it would be a good move to do something else ..

And again, i'll add.. this is all my OPINION from the point of view as a casual player..
All the content in this game is obtainable for the casual and the hardcore, just don't make me play a toon for a few months strait to get to the toon i want to build..

darkrhavyn
02-14-2009, 12:07 PM
I have seen a couple of interesting ideas proposed ----I really doubt that the one that would make everyone happy -a respec for old characters and getting to add four points to any character that hits 1750 will not happen....mostly because I think it is a BIG programming hassle and unlikely to occur


But one thing that sounded really doable was the idea of account favor.....once you do a quest on ANY character it counts towards the 1750.....that would definitely cut down on the "grind" aspect that some people perceive while still allowing people to experiment with builds till they found one they liked.

Like Kalari said though....I never really saw 1750 as a "grind"---for me a grind is doing the same thing over and over again....to get 1750 involved doing multiple different quests, not running Guard Jungs badge 8 time and Info is Key 8 times then WW 8 times then STK and tangleroot...move to deleras and SC and Gwylans then threnal then GH.....you get the picture. That powerleveling mentality is a GRIND for me...exploring 3BC and the necropolis (granted I always promise never to go back there lol) or ataraxia is just fun.

Darianna got her 1750 without even realizing it....was I happy for the tome- you bet, but I never intentionally tried to get favor with her.

Someone pointed out that for people who like to reroll or experiment getting 32pts is unlikely to change that...I agree I always have 5 or six babies running around just to see if twiching this stat or that skill will make them differnent to play than the others I have.

Strak...I'm sorry your friend saw 1750 as a grind and quit...but if he thought getting 1750 was a grind....what would he have thought of the Shroud or the DT armor? Doing a variety of quests with one character doesnt seem all that bad in comparison, just my opinion. Hope he gives it another try...maybe you could give him some pointers on builds that would help him make a character he would like.:)

Deadz
02-14-2009, 12:08 PM
Those two are irreconcilable, because there is always some kind of grind involved in being a powergamer, ?

false, all the content for a powergame can be obtained by the casual.. this really isn't a powergamer type of game.. the powergamers just think it is.. hense why the "powergamers" have 8+ capped toons.. I hate to break it to you..

Aranticus
02-14-2009, 12:13 PM
/not signed

it is already very easy to level in ddo. in the past few mths i've seen plently of L16s with no hint of skills at all. by giving these people 32 pt is akin to telling them, here you go, a uber build, just slash and nuke. this makes them play with even less intelligence, strategy, empathy

by making people earn the 32 pt will at least let these people learn something

krud
02-14-2009, 12:15 PM
false, all the content for a powergame can be obtained by the casual.. this really isn't a powergamer type of game.. the powergamers just think it is.. hense why the "powergamers" have 8+ capped toons.. I hate to break it to you..
All of the favor can be obtained by a casual as well.

Uproar
02-14-2009, 12:16 PM
Personally I think overall favor rewards need a little bit of an overhaul

Drow still 400
32pt build 1000
something new at 1750
something new at 2500(when cap increases)


1000 favor points is basically guaranted for anyone who makes it up to lvl 16 these days

QFE -- A plan I could live with.

Aranticus
02-14-2009, 12:17 PM
false, all the content for a powergame can be obtained by the casual.. this really isn't a powergamer type of game.. the powergamers just think it is.. hense why the "powergamers" have 8+ capped toons.. I hate to break it to you..

wrong. the factor here is time. a casual can take months to make a mineral 2. my latest fighter took 6 runs to have a min2 and triple air goggles made. thats 2.5 weeks. u wanted the 32 pt but is not willing to put the time in for it. i bet you will grind some raids for loot. if so, i dun see how you cant do it for favor. i suspect your mentality is loot > favor

krud
02-14-2009, 12:17 PM
It's the mechanic of having to play x toon to make Y toon better is offputting to new players..
That is exactly what the shroud grind is about. I have run the shroud on multiple toons for the sole purpose of gathering enough ingredients for one complete shroud item for another character.

Kalari
02-14-2009, 12:22 PM
I almost forgot about this been busy as heck. But 1750 really isnt that hard to get if your guilded. I'll tell the story again. Former guildy and his girlfriend shared a pc, they made her character a ranger on his account got her to almost level 14 when they finally got her, her own pc. Well come to find out because her ranger was made on his account there was no way to transfer the girl over when they finally got her an account of her own.

Dishearted she was depressed but not wanting her to leave the guild rallied around her and took her new girl threw elite quests for just favor. She may have died maybe once or twice (hehe blew a trap box up on her once :o) But in 2 weeks with the help of several members she got 1750. So I know it can be done if effort is put, I just feel that if you dont go looking for it you will see it sooner. But if what im reading is right and the op is a casual who re rolls I dunno what to say to that I tend to find a girl I like and play her till im itching to play something else.

Uska
02-14-2009, 12:26 PM
Earn It:d

gHzSWB
02-14-2009, 12:46 PM
I am not much for grinds and timesinks, although I realize to an extent they have to be part of MMOs. The problem with them in DDO, which is not really a real MMO (another argument) is that they often exist for the sole purpose of extending subscriptions and for no other legitimate in game reason. 32 point build is something that should take some work I think but it would make more sense, in terms of in game justification, if you accumulated the favor across all you characters rather than just one. That way people are rewarded not for just doign the same stupid content over and over or grinding out favor but for making various characters and just playing them. I won't opressume to say how the number should change if doing it across all toons but I think the idea of earning it with all yoru characters rather than one fits better with a game that is strong at haracter building and weak in terms of the amouont of content and the appeal of higher level content.

Seneca_Windforge
02-14-2009, 01:10 PM
Or you could describe the same process as: "DDO is pretty good, with the FEATUE that after you play your first character a while and experience the game, you can unlock the bonus of being able to roll up a enhanced character that will allow you some creative advanced character options".

So you should spin it in a dirty way like a politician might do? Isn't this person in theory your friend?

Uska
02-14-2009, 04:18 PM
sure, it acts as an incentive for people already in love with DDO.

For people that aren't already sold on pouring dozens of hours into DDO, it is often (not always, of course) off-putting.

I like the suggestion of 32pts at 1000 favor.

that I can support but not giving it away

branmakmuffin
02-14-2009, 04:50 PM
I suppose what I meant to ask is "would it impact your play experience". And the obvious answer there is no, it would not.
It could affect my gaming experience. The overall Monty Haulness of the game affects everyone's gaming experience to one degree or another. Whether it's a noticeable degree is the crux of the matter.


Look, a lot of you can continue to deny it, but if you think the 1750 favor setup is good for the long term health of the game, you're flat-out wrong. Anything that so blatantly discourages new blood from even trying the game is, simply put, a horrid idea. Another example might be the grandfathering of crit rage... an absolutely horrible idea.
The crit rage thing is a bow to the usual crowd of whining power gamers, who practically threaten to hold their breaths until they turn blue if they don't get their way.

Strakeln
02-14-2009, 04:55 PM
It could affect my gaming experience. The overall Monty Haulness of the game affects everyone's gaming experience to one degree or another. Whether it's a noticeable degree is the crux of the matter.Agreed, and I think we can both agree you wouldn't notice the difference if newbs had 28 or 32 points. But they would.


The crit rage thing is a bow to the usual crowd of whining power gamers, who practically threaten to hold their breaths until they turn blue if they don't get their way.Sorta my point... tick off the veterans and they'll be unhappy. Tick off a new player, they'll go elsewhere.

Uska
02-14-2009, 05:31 PM
Not everyone can be bothered by it.

From what I've seen, most people without access to 32-point builds are a bit irked by it.

Tell me, would changing it so everyone had 32-point builds bother you? I'm guessing no.

So, you're happy the way it is now, and you'd be happy if they changed it.

Someone else is unhappy with the way it is now, and would be happy if they changed it.

Doesn't the best solution seem painfully obvious here? Can you think of any way to make it so that we see no red in the above two lines?


lower yes but not get rid of if I think if they started with 32 pts they might burn out sooner with no goal. if they are unhappy about having to earn 32pts then they will be unhappy about something else like rogues not having sneak attack against every thing all I see is a bunch a cry babies and would rather see the game die then put up with them.

Uska
02-14-2009, 05:35 PM
Not quite that Simplistic... The Point Buy system DDO Uses is a Valid Option for the 3.5 Ruleset.

Pretty sure the die rolling w/ 3.5 is 4d6 and Drop the lowest die 6 Times. Arrange those 6 results as you see fit.

that is one dice system there many others like roll 4d6 drop lowest in order.

in orignal it was roll 3d6 in order period. I still use that in my 1st ed game so if someone is playing a monk or paladin you know they got lucky and my players love it.

tihocan
02-16-2009, 11:41 AM
Don't really have time to read the whole thread, but... I also agree with the OP, tying 32 pt builds to 1750 favor sucks and I've never liked it.

Strakeln
02-16-2009, 12:06 PM
lower yes but not get rid of if I think if they started with 32 pts they might burn out sooner with no goal.I think that argument doesn't hold much water, and here's why: how long have you had 1750? I've had it since about a month after they introduced 32-point builds... what was that, two years ago? I suspect the vast majority of current DDO players have had their 1750 for a year or more.

The point is, while 1750 is a carrot, it's not the only one, nor is it one that really keeps people playing. Furthermore, there's nothing saying we can't introduce another carrot to replace it. If your concern is that people need goals to avoid burnout, there's nothing wrong with replacing this goal with one that is character-specific instead of account-specific.

Uska
02-16-2009, 03:19 PM
I think that argument doesn't hold much water, and here's why: how long have you had 1750? I've had it since about a month after they introduced 32-point builds... what was that, two years ago? I suspect the vast majority of current DDO players have had their 1750 for a year or more.

The point is, while 1750 is a carrot, it's not the only one, nor is it one that really keeps people playing. Furthermore, there's nothing saying we can't introduce another carrot to replace it. If your concern is that people need goals to avoid burnout, there's nothing wrong with replacing this goal with one that is character-specific instead of account-specific.

Ok how about I did it you have to dont like it leave. I dont want whiners here if it means the game dies if they leave fine I would rather have no game then game with whiny babies. If they get this they will just find somethingelse to whine about. Like the rogue sneak attack whiners crying they cant sneak attack everything under the sun. dont like leave.

Deadz
02-16-2009, 03:23 PM
Ok how about I did it you have to dont like it leave. I dont want whiners here if it means the game dies if they leave fine I would rather have no game then game with whiny babies. If they get this they will just find somethingelse to whine about. Like the rogue sneak attack whiners crying they cant sneak attack everything under the sun. dont like leave.


LoL sounds like someone is having a tantrum..

shores11
02-16-2009, 03:25 PM
I'm sure this argument has happened 100 times but let me say my peace, then you can trash it all you want :).

as a married man with a newborn, i hardly get time to mmo.. now the strength of DDO is caracter creation, but.. without time, it's very hard to group alot, and it's very hard to cap a character.. you all see how many posts i have, when i started.. well this is my third account (they are like 2 bucks on cd-key sites).. and i have my first toon approaching 600 favor.. lol

what this does to me, personally.. it keeps me from trying alts and experimenting, which imo is the strength of this game, severely decreasing my "fun factor"

the favor makes sense, and the "cap" gives you that +2 tome, so people still get something, i just personally feel that the lack of 32 point builds makes me feel like my alts are "gimped" from the start.. i'm not saying they wouldn't be w/ 32 points (go ahead, giggle) but the feeling is there, decreasing my fun factor..

and

2) this would not hurt anyone in any way shape or form.. yes the hardcore say they "earned it" and everyone should as well.. but I feel this game is no longer new, and well, what's the point imo it makes more sense to put everyone on a level playing field and INCREASE the fun factor for the casuals, without DECREASING the fun factor for the rest...

Just my opinion, but i can live with trieing like heck to grind out those points to get my 32 pointer, i'd just rather roll my 32 point rogue and enjoy him :).


1st - 32 point builds are for everyone so I don't understand the OP. All you have to do is get 1750 favor.
2nd - 28 point point builds are not gimp characters in anyway and if you feel that way then I can't help you at all.

I have chosen not to reroll my 3, 28 point builds because I enjoy playing them still to this day 3 years later. They are not gimped in anyway and contribute very nicely to any party. I just feel that having a goal out there to achieve is a great way DDO has put in place for favor building amongst many things. I would really hope that this never changes.

Strakeln
02-16-2009, 03:28 PM
Ok how about I did it you have to dont like it leave. I dont want whiners here if it means the game dies if they leave fine I would rather have no game then game with whiny babies. If they get this they will just find somethingelse to whine about. Like the rogue sneak attack whiners crying they cant sneak attack everything under the sun. dont like leave.Typically a stance taken when someone has no real argument to present.

Think about that.

Deadz
02-16-2009, 03:32 PM
2nd - 28 point point builds are not gimp characters in anyway and if you feel that way then I can't help you at all.
-I agree, i know they aren't REALLY gimped.. but it leaves that feeling with lots of new players, you see there are lots of others who agree... there in lies the problem, it starts off as a negative feeling...

I have chosen not to reroll my 3, 28 point builds because I enjoy playing them still to this day 3 years later.
-Awesome, i personally am waiting on 1750 favor to roll the rogue i really want to play, it seems a LONG wait.

They are not gimped in anyway and contribute very nicely to any party.
-agreed
I just feel that having a goal out there to achieve is a great way DDO has put in place for favor building amongst many things.
-Agree favor building goals are nice, i just PERSONALLY feel this one is misguided.
I would really hope that this never changes.
-you are intitled to you opinion, i have no problem with you disagreeing!


reply's above

shores11
02-16-2009, 03:33 PM
I am not much for grinds and timesinks, although I realize to an extent they have to be part of MMOs. The problem with them in DDO, which is not really a real MMO (another argument) is that they often exist for the sole purpose of extending subscriptions and for no other legitimate in game reason. 32 point build is something that should take some work I think but it would make more sense, in terms of in game justification, if you accumulated the favor across all you characters rather than just one. That way people are rewarded not for just doign the same stupid content over and over or grinding out favor but for making various characters and just playing them. I won't opressume to say how the number should change if doing it across all toons but I think the idea of earning it with all yoru characters rather than one fits better with a game that is strong at haracter building and weak in terms of the amouont of content and the appeal of higher level content.

This idea doesn't make any sense. So your saying instead of having one character do enough quests to get to 1750 favor allow several characters build their favor that you have created. So you would have your character A (as an example) run waterworks and your character B run waterworks and have the favor add up for both? You would do this instead of having your character A run waterworks on normal and hard? Really, what is the difference?

Strakeln
02-16-2009, 03:34 PM
1st - 32 point builds are for everyone so I don't understand the OP. All you have to do is get 1750 favor.
2nd - 28 point point builds are not gimp characters in anyway and if you feel that way then I can't help you at all.

I have chosen not to reroll my 3, 28 point builds because I enjoy playing them still to this day 3 years later. They are not gimped in anyway and contribute very nicely to any party. I just feel that having a goal out there to achieve is a great way DDO has put in place for favor building amongst many things. I would really hope that this never changes.It's worth noting that "gimped" is an opinion, not a black-and-white state of being.

Meaning, while you feel that 28-pt builds are not gimped, someone else does... and you're both correct.

The problem is, each person defines "gimped" differently. For some, the difference between gimped and uber is in the single percentage points, whereas for others, it may actually be impossible to create a gimped character (in their opinion).

What we can agree upon is that those four points will make a character more powerful/effective. There's no arguing this, but I'm willing to if you want: point me to any 28-point build and I will show you at minimum two ways it could be improved by adding four build points.

shores11
02-16-2009, 03:37 PM
reply's above

2nd - 28 point point builds are not gimp characters in anyway and if you feel that way then I can't help you at all.
-I agree, i know they aren't REALLY gimped.. but it leaves that feeling with lots of new players, you see there are lots of others who agree... there in lies the problem, it starts off as a negative feeling...

There are also just as many or more that like the way the system is to include many new players. I know a lot of them myself and they like the idea of building their characters favor up to achieve 400 and 1750 in fact they want even more favor goals added for higher favor achieved.

Deadz
02-16-2009, 03:38 PM
That is exactly what the shroud grind is about. I have run the shroud on multiple toons for the sole purpose of gathering enough ingredients for one complete shroud item for another character.
not 100%.. it's a way to SPEED up shroud grinding.. but can be done on one character.I do understand what your getting at, it's just the

YOu HAVE to play A to start B on an equal footing of most people's new toons..

Almost all the vets have 32pts unlocked.. for me it's basically been 1 1/2 months of playing a character to get to the character i want to play, to enjoy all the experimentation with building, instead i say, "well i better play that cleric to scratch toward the 1750 .. "

Again, it's just a feeling i don't like, i know turns off some new players, and has no positive.. none, so what's the point.. 1750 you get your +2 tome, which is way more of an incentive.. i personally spend my time looking more for 0 xp favor runs then anything else, not that much fun imo.. a very bad game mechanic in my opinion.. <--opinion.. PLEASE notice the word opinion..

shores11
02-16-2009, 03:44 PM
It's worth noting that "gimped" is an opinion, not a black-and-white state of being.

Meaning, while you feel that 28-pt builds are not gimped, someone else does... and you're both correct.

The problem is, each person defines "gimped" differently. For some, the difference between gimped and uber is in the single percentage points, whereas for others, it may actually be impossible to create a gimped character (in their opinion).

What we can agree upon is that those four points will make a character more powerful/effective. There's no arguing this, but I'm willing to if you want: point me to any 28-point build and I will show you at minimum two ways it could be improved by adding four build points.

I could not disagree more there is an argument here. I submit that the additional 4 points is more of a state of mind effect than actual build effect. Doing a little more damage here or there or getting a few more spell points here or there really does not change the play of the game that much.

If the additional 4 points gets me an extra 30 points of spell points this is good but not game changing or negative in any way. I also submit that the small difference is not so overpowering to justify the complaints about the system but yet just enough to set as a goal for gaining 1750 favor.

Deadz
02-16-2009, 03:53 PM
I could not disagree more there is an argument here. I submit that the additional 4 points is more of a state of mind effect than actual build effect. Doing a little more damage here or there or getting a few more spell points here or there really does not change the play of the game that much.

If the additional 4 points gets me an extra 30 points of spell points this is good but not game changing or negative in any way. --I also submit that the small difference is not so overpowering to justify the complaints about the system but yet just enough to set as a goal for gaining 1750 favor.--
I actually agree with everything except the area i put some lines around..

I will say again my only problem is in my opinion it's something that makes new players think "oh i'm less powerful at start then everyone" then something that makes them think "oh that's a cool goal to reach for" but in my opinion gameplay wise it really doesn't make much of a difference, so what have a negative at all?

something like +1 to two stats at 1750 favor for each character would make more sense in my opinion, something that doesn't start off making a player feel this way.

IF it isn't going to change, which honestly i don't think it will ever change, that's fine.. the point of this thread is to share my opinion from the perspective of a very casual player who is a DDO addict.. if only i got favor for grinding the forums, we wouldn't be having this conversation :)

DSC
02-16-2009, 04:13 PM
I will say again my only problem is in my opinion it's something that makes new players think "oh i'm less powerful at start then everyone" then something that makes them think "oh that's a cool goal to reach for" but in my opinion gameplay wise it really doesn't make much of a difference, so what have a negative at all?

Fully agree. I think the oldtimers are actually correct when they say "32 pt. builds don't make much of a difference"... but that isn't actually a logical argument for keeping it the way it is.

If the only people who feel it matters are new players, that indeed suggests that it might be better to give it to the new players rather than hold it out as a "reward" for people who, once they have it, won't think it's actually a big deal.

Strakeln
02-16-2009, 04:16 PM
I could not disagree more there is an argument here. I submit that the additional 4 points is more of a state of mind effect than actual build effect. Doing a little more damage here or there or getting a few more spell points here or there really does not change the play of the game that much.Then I once again challenge you to point me to specific 28-pt builds, I will show you how they can be improved. What you point out (extra damage, more SP) is only part of the equation, and depending on the build, typically a small part.

Edit: I'd like to add that it's enjoyable that we can converse about this in a polite manner (being serious) :)

Freeman
02-16-2009, 04:16 PM
Under the current system, new players don't get access to 32pt characters until they unlock 1750 favor. Some may feel they are disadvantaged because of this and leave the game, while others won't care. However, if they were to remove the need to unlock 32pt builds, then any player that had 28pt characters would effectively be punished for being a long-time subscriber. If they allow 28pt chars to be converted, then it might be worth removing the 32pt build restriction. Until they do that, it needs to remain something that should be unlocked to be fair to current players. Now, I have no issue with changing the actual requirements as others have suggested, to make the total favor rewards less daunting, by adding incremental rewards between 400 and 1750.

Strakeln
02-16-2009, 04:23 PM
Fully agree. I think the oldtimers are actually correct when they say "32 pt. builds don't make much of a difference"...I've thought about it a bit, and come to this conclusion (which is an opinion):

People that say "32-point builds don't make much of a difference" are actually saying "I can play a 28-point build in a very effective manner". I say this because in my opinion, they do make a huge difference, to the point that many common builds we see today simply wouldn't be viable if all builds were 28 point (the ranger/pally/monk stretch comes to mind, heh).

Strakeln
02-16-2009, 04:24 PM
Under the current system, new players don't get access to 32pt characters until they unlock 1750 favor. Some may feel they are disadvantaged because of this and leave the game, while others won't care. However, if they were to remove the need to unlock 32pt builds, then any player that had 28pt characters would effectively be punished for being a long-time subscriber. If they allow 28pt chars to be converted, then it might be worth removing the 32pt build restriction. Until they do that, it needs to remain something that should be unlocked to be fair to current players. Now, I have no issue with changing the actual requirements as others have suggested, to make the total favor rewards less daunting, by adding incremental rewards between 400 and 1750.Damn, good point, I'd be a little irked if I had a grandfathered 28-point build, lol.

Full respec, please! :)

Aganazer
02-16-2009, 04:41 PM
Damn, good point, I'd be a little irked if I had a grandfathered 28-point build, lol.

Full respec, please! :)

It seems only fair that they would allow a one time ability respec of all existing 28pt characters. I don't think we would hear as many complaints about dropping this old mechanic once people make their visit to Fred to get their one free ability respec.

But the truth is that adding the respec makes it more than a trivial change.

As an alternative, allow each character to respec their abilities to 32pt once they reach 1750 favor. 1750 needs to be reached by each character before a 32pt respec is given. It would kill two birds with one stone by letting old characters get 32pts, new players don't feel gimped any more than anyone else, and there is no power inflation (there is even a little deflation).

Better yet, allow your first 1750 to unlock open elite mode so that your new twinked out characters can bypass the trivial normal difficulty and it makes the second trip to 1750 much easier.

Strakeln
02-16-2009, 05:18 PM
As an alternative, allow each character to respec their abilities to 32pt once they reach 1750 favor. 1750 needs to be reached by each character before a 32pt respec is given. It would kill two birds with one stone by letting old characters get 32pts, new players don't feel gimped any more than anyone else, and there is no power inflation (there is even a little deflation).While I'd prefer to just open up 32-pt builds to all, this seems to be the most fair solution that addresses the most concerns (not just mine).

I'll tell Turbine to get right on it.

HumanJHawkins
02-16-2009, 05:33 PM
Many people claim that the difference is trivial and not important, therefore 32 point builds should remain restricted as is. However, all you have to do to PROVE that this is a bigger deal those people claim, is to threaten to take it away from them. Suddenly they panic, get angry, and demonstrate by their actions that it is a very big deal to them.

There are many arguments on both sides of this. Who wins depends on your perspective. If you are:

A Judge (with all player interest in mind): You notice that the arguments for making 32 points easier relate to making the game more fun for new players. Whereas the arguments against either dismiss the feelings of new and casual players, or focus on protecting a perception of superiority by people who have already done the grind.

The verdict: Making the game more fun is more important than propping up some player's illusion of superiority. Open 32 point builds to all, or make them a lot easier to achieve.

A Powergamer (With his need to be more uber than everyone else): Reads and disregards all arguments, as they are irrelevant. He doesn't care why people want to change this. He only cares that it remain difficult for others to compete with him so he can maintain his sense of superiority. So he'll try to distract from the real issues by claiming they want an "easy button". Or, he'll focus on tiny parts of the issue that he can win, like by claiming that the difference is not very big. And he'll ignore the fact that this is much more about a feeling of exclusion than actual game mechanics.

The verdict: Hell no. Keep the system as is, or make it even harder.

Turbine (with $$$ in mind): I hope turbine will see how damaging this is to the game, and how contrary it is to everything else they do to try to be inclusive and fair.

The verdict: Replace the account wide benefit from 1750 favor with a good reward that is limited to the character that achieved it. This will remove the issue, and will maintain or perhaps even expand the need for players to keep playing, as people will now have to get favor on EVERY character that they want the reward on.

krud
02-16-2009, 05:38 PM
This idea doesn't make any sense. So your saying instead of having one character do enough quests to get to 1750 favor allow several characters build their favor that you have created. So you would have your character A (as an example) run waterworks and your character B run waterworks and have the favor add up for both? You would do this instead of having your character A run waterworks on normal and hard? Really, what is the difference?
UGGGHHH! No NO No! This same erroneous thought pervades every single post about the total sever favor suggestion. I brought up the idea of total server favor (and did so long before in previous threads). It goes as follows: You get total server favor, BUT no overlapping favor. (i.e. the same quest counts only once, even if you have run it on mulitple characters). It works the same as it does with your individual characters. You don't get more favor each time you run WW elite on the same toon, do you? The same applies when you total server favor across multiple toons. One of your characters does WW on elite, you'll get credit for WW elite on your total server favor. If another character runs ww elite, you get no further bonus. Individual characters can still grind to 1750 for a tome, but the 1750 for 32pts comes from all your characters on the server.

This way if you get a character to cap and are still short of 1750, you can run one of your lowbies thru instead of going back and doing the favor grind. Also if lfms favor one character for one quest, you get to knock out the favor without having to gather up a group for your other charcacter. You can play all your characters as you please without having to focus on just one to get the favor. To some it's not a big deal to grind one toon. To others it is.

shores11
02-16-2009, 05:50 PM
I suppose because you wrote this theory then it is law. I on the other hand think that you are only trying to push your agenda and wrap it up in speak that makes folks think you know what your talking about.


Many people claim that the difference is trivial and not important, therefore 32 point builds should remain restricted as is. However, all you have to do to PROVE that this is a bigger deal those people claim, is to threaten to take it away from them. Suddenly they panic, get angry, and demonstrate by their actions that it is a very big deal to them.

Disagreement: By disagreeing their is no panic, anger or anything of that sort. But there are those (you included) that think to disagree with their point of view is close minded and restrictive.
There are many arguments on both sides of this. Who wins depends on your perspective. If you are:

A Judge (with all player interest in mind): You notice that the arguments for making 32 points easier relate to making the game more fun for new players. Whereas the arguments against either dismiss the feelings of new and casual players, or focus on protecting a perception of superiority by people who have already done the grind.

The verdict: Making the game more fun is more important than propping up some player's illusion of superiority. Open 32 point builds to all, or make them a lot easier to achieve.

The appeal: By implementing a favor system that gives a player a goal you are in fact creating a system that is fun and enjoyable. I can say that for myself and just about every player I have played with over the last 3 years enjoys the favor trek to achieve 400 for drow and 1750 for a +2 tome and unlocking the 32 favor build. They also (including myself) enjoy the trek to unlock house favor and the various things involved with that.

A Powergamer (With his need to be more uber than everyone else): Reads and disregards all arguments, as they are irrelevant. He doesn't care why people want to change this. He only cares that it remain difficult for others to compete with him so he can maintain his sense of superiority. So he'll try to distract from the real issues by claiming they want an "easy button". Or, he'll focus on tiny parts of the issue that he can win, like by claiming that the difference is not very big. And he'll ignore the fact that this is much more about a feeling of exclusion than actual game mechanics.

The verdict: Hell no. Keep the system as is, or make it even harder.

The appeal: I agree to a certain extent a power gamer wants to be superior and is usually a very selfish player. However that is individually driven by certain players. Just because a power gamer (and I do not submit that they agree with favor run for 32 point builds) agrees on a topic that your against does not mean it is a power gamer issue. I think quit the opposite in fact a power gamer for the most part wants everything very fast and does not like the trek to achieve and unlock favor. I would submit that the push to have 32 point builds from the start is being driven by power gamers.

Turbine (with $$$ in mind): I hope turbine will see how damaging this is to the game, and how contrary it is to everything else they do to try to be inclusive and fair.

The verdict: Replace the account wide benefit from 1750 favor with a good reward that is limited to the character that achieved it. This will remove the issue, and will maintain or perhaps even expand the need for players to keep playing, as people will now have to get favor on EVERY character that they want the reward on.

The appeal: I am sure Turbine is a lot smarter than you give them credit for and knows full well that this is a huge benefit to the game. The subscriptions to DDO in fact have been on the rise of late as I have personally quested with and so has fellow guild members new players who enjoy the game very much.

Jesen
02-16-2009, 07:08 PM
Give everyone 32 point builds and no reason to run favor(+2 tomes are a dime a dozen now)

Result - People only start groups, run quests based on the time/xp reward. Even less content is run up to 16 and forum posts with the title "OMG lack of content" and "DOOOOOOM" multiply tenfold.

We all know there is certain quests that get milked for xp/time already, but occasionally people will run other quests for favor. Don't take that away from the game.

Also if you really are that casual of a gamer perhaps you chose the wrong type of game to play? Grab Neverwinter nights and go build crazy if thats what you feel your missing out on.

You will ALWAYS feel like your missing out on something in a MMORPG(Not just DDO) because their will always be power gamers with more than you.

HumanJHawkins
02-16-2009, 08:00 PM
I suppose because you wrote this theory then it is law. I on the other hand think that you are only trying to push your agenda and wrap it up in speak that makes folks think you know what your talking about.

[/color]

You presume too much. I was not speaking generally about people panicking. I was speaking specifically about times when this has come up before. People would argue (as some are here) that the difference between 28 and 32 points is meaningless. But upon suggesting that if it was meaningless, all builds should be reverted to 28 points, those same exact people literally freaked out in fear.

Or if you point out that it would make a LOT more sense to have everyone's first character be 32 points to help them get started, but subsequent characters should be 28 points as they no longer need the boost and will better know how to build a character, again people freak.

The fact is that 32 points is a real and substantial benefit, equivalent to a +4 tome in an off stat, or a +2 tome in a main stat. Yes, this is clearly outweighed by skill, equipment, etc. But the "It's meaningless" argument is a farce.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, but I'm going to call them like I see them.

Take the "I had to do it, so you have to also" argument that entered this thread fairly late... This is hazing pure and simple. People in favor of hazing are entitled to their opinion. But most reasonable people do not see "They made me run across campus naked except for peanut butter on my genitals, so it is OK for me to make the new guy do that too." as a valid argument.

Most reasonable people would say, I'm sorry you had to endure that, but it was a bad thing so we are going to end it.

Decisions about what to change or not change need to be made on the basis of what makes the game better. And for the game to have a chance of improving, consideration about how older players might be jealous because they had to endure more PITA, must be excluded from the decision making process. PITA is bad, and the desire to make everyone suffer equally is not a good reason to continue it.

You mention how much you enjoyed the pursuit of 1750. I'm not at all against having goals like that. I am only against having a reward that divides the player base into 2 classes. The simple fact that we can discuss 28 vs. 32 point builds illustrates that there are two classes.

Something like a +1 tome that would stack with other regular tomes would be a fair 1750 reward. Or just a +2 or +3 tome. There would still be haves and have-nots. But there wouldn't be a permanent and irreversible weakness applied to all of one person's toons, in contrast to another.

Freeman
02-16-2009, 09:00 PM
But there wouldn't be a permanent and irreversible weakness applied to all of one person's toons, in contrast to another.

Yes, actually, there would be. The only difference is that it would be in the other direction. Anyone, such as myself, that still has multiple 28pt build characters that were created long before favor, 32pt builds, or even drow were in the game, would have a permanent and irreversible weakness applied to those characters.

No matter which way the system works, either in the current fashion or by allowing anyone to create 32pt characters, there is still going to be a difference between old and new players. And those extra four build points, while they can be nice, don't have much effect on a character at low levels. The gear you can afford to buy with a higher level character will have the largest, most visible impact on a character, not the starting stats.

Deadz
02-16-2009, 09:05 PM
You will ALWAYS feel like your missing out on something in a MMORPG(Not just DDO) because their will always be power gamers with more than you.

nah been playing mmo's since 98 it's not the fact that content isn't obtainable, infact out of all mmo's i've played, it's the MOST obtainable in ddo.. it's actually a very casual game, it's just the time sink to start your first character with the potential to be capped or geared is the issue.. i think you misunderstand

Zenako
02-16-2009, 09:10 PM
I think some of you are discounting the real value of essentially requiring a new player to experience a good deal of the game to gain that perk.

32 vs 28 is a perk. For pure classes it is insignificant. For some advanced MC toons it can be important to hitting certain benchmarks (some of them self imposed). For some players, they need to have 95% success rates on stuff or they feel gimped, while a more objective view could conclude that 85% would do just fine.

The bonus tome (which does only go to each character that hits the benchmark) is a nice perk. It used to be a huge perk, but as has been pointed out, +2 tomes are no longer anywhere near as scarce as they once were, but still seldom seen by the infrequent player.

If there were no reward like the 32 point perk, what incentive would there be to experience much of the game beyond those core 20 power leveling quests so many are fond of. What would keep all those players from "burning out" on those quests and whining about lack of content. Kind of a hallow whine if you only run a small subset of quests and ignore the rest.

Turbine has already changed the perks to be even fewer than in the past, where you got bonus character slots too. Now everyone starts with the same, and everyone has the same. From my perspective and experience with players, I see the range of favor required to get that perk to be a net positive and not a negative.

branmakmuffin
02-16-2009, 09:13 PM
A Powergamer (With his need to be more uber than everyone else): Reads and disregards all arguments, as they are irrelevant. He doesn't care why people want to change this. He only cares that it remain difficult for others to compete with him so he can maintain his sense of superiority. So he'll try to distract from the real issues by claiming they want an "easy button". Or, he'll focus on tiny parts of the issue that he can win, like by claiming that the difference is not very big. And he'll ignore the fact that this is much more about a feeling of exclusion than actual game mechanics.
Actually, it's the power gamers who want the "easy button."


Give everyone 32 point builds and no reason to run favor(+2 tomes are a dime a dozen now)
Then send me my dozen (your choice). And just to show how nice I am, I'll send you two dimes. :rolleyes:

Uska
02-16-2009, 11:16 PM
Typically a stance taken when someone has no real argument to present.

Think about that.

No I think 32pt are a reward anyone who thinks otherwise is a whiner and I would rather see them quit then hear them whine think about that.

Uska
02-16-2009, 11:20 PM
not 100%.. it's a way to SPEED up shroud grinding.. but can be done on one character.I do understand what your getting at, it's just the

YOu HAVE to play A to start B on an equal footing of most people's new toons..

Almost all the vets have 32pts unlocked.. for me it's basically been 1 1/2 months of playing a character to get to the character i want to play, to enjoy all the experimentation with building, instead i say, "well i better play that cleric to scratch toward the 1750 .. "

Again, it's just a feeling i don't like, i know turns off some new players, and has no positive.. none, so what's the point.. 1750 you get your +2 tome, which is way more of an incentive.. i personally spend my time looking more for 0 xp favor runs then anything else, not that much fun imo.. a very bad game mechanic in my opinion.. <--opinion.. PLEASE notice the word opinion..



Due to technical issues I started over on a new server so I have no gear to twink my guys nor do I have 32pt builds yet I am very happy without either and no I am not transfering one of my 32pt builds to unlock to me its a waste of money at the price it is. And it does have a positive for me its a goal to reach but not to grind for I am working at it as I go about making my new characters again anyone crying is a whiner and needs to find a game they like better because if it wasnt this they would be crying about something else.

Xalted_Vol
02-16-2009, 11:20 PM
Why not really? It seems silly the game has been out for a very long time!

HumanJHawkins
02-17-2009, 02:04 AM
No I think 32pt are a reward anyone who thinks otherwise is a whiner and I would rather see them quit then hear them whine think about that.

The problem is that it rewards the person, not the character. This is entirely different than the way most games work, and there is a reason for that.

How many people would play chess, if there were some rule like once you have won 100 games, you can thereafter move a pawn like a bishop for one move in any game. Even if you are playing against a new player who wasn't involved in any of those first 100 games.

Or, we could have a Pac Man tournament where last year's leading scorers get an extra second of invulnerability after eating the big dot in the corner. Anyone new coming in would have to do without. How many new players would join that tournament?

You might want an advantage over new players, but many of us would rather have a more equal playing field... Nobody here (except perhaps you) is whining about anything. I have 32 point builds. I just think it is asinine that I get bonuses over new players like deadz just because I have been around longer.

Xylitol
02-17-2009, 02:13 AM
Not going to read whole thread and dont know if this have been mentioned earlier... They could just made so that 28 point build would have "special" tome as a reward that would make them essentially to 32 point build after reaching 1750 favor.

This would mean that your "grinding" 28 point would become 32 point build (and all builds after that just like now) and you still had reason to get that 1750 favor.

Uska
02-17-2009, 02:15 AM
The problem is that it rewards the person, not the character. This is entirely different than the way most games work, and there is a reason for that.

How many people would play chess, if there were some rule like once you have won 100 games, you can thereafter move a pawn like a bishop for one move in any game. Even if you are playing against a new player who wasn't involved in any of those first 100 games.

Or, we could have a Pac Man tournament where last year's leading scorers get an extra second of invulnerability after eating the big dot in the corner. Anyone new coming in would have to do without. How many new players would join that tournament?

You might want an advantage over new players, but many of us would rather have a more equal playing field... Nobody here (except perhaps you) is whining about anything. I have 32 point builds. I just think it is asinine that I get bonuses over new players like deadz just because I have been around longer.




you clearly havent read my posts I am playing on a new server without 32pt builds or tiwnk gear and I still say no. I have no advantage over new players in fact new players have an advantage over what we have they can get some fairly decent gear rather quickly now. So think before say someone wants an advantage hmm:rolleyes: I dont have it and dont see myself getting on my new server anytime soon as I refuse to pay $25 for a transfer

Thoreg
02-17-2009, 02:15 AM
If you want to give them 32 points right out of the gate why don't we just go ahead and give them 10 character slots, 10 +2 tomes, houses favor,10 Green Steel items of their choice and throw in 10 million platinum. This idea is ridiculous. We all had to work for our 1750 favor, so should the new players.

Seneca_Windforge
02-17-2009, 02:56 AM
If you want to give them 32 points right out of the gate why don't we just go ahead and give them 10 character slots, 10 +2 tomes, houses favor,10 Green Steel items of their choice and throw in 10 million platinum. This idea is ridiculous. We all had to work for our 1750 favor, so should the new players.

Hazing is just plain silly.

Seneca_Windforge
02-17-2009, 03:02 AM
The problem is that it rewards the person, not the character. This is entirely different than the way most games work, and there is a reason for that.

How many people would play chess, if there were some rule like once you have won 100 games, you can thereafter move a pawn like a bishop for one move in any game. Even if you are playing against a new player who wasn't involved in any of those first 100 games.

Or, we could have a Pac Man tournament where last year's leading scorers get an extra second of invulnerability after eating the big dot in the corner. Anyone new coming in would have to do without. How many new players would join that tournament?

You might want an advantage over new players, but many of us would rather have a more equal playing field... Nobody here (except perhaps you) is whining about anything. I have 32 point builds. I just think it is asinine that I get bonuses over new players like deadz just because I have been around longer.

It's too bad grognards are immune to logic and reason. :)

You might just want to write him off as a lost cause.

sisterjinx
02-17-2009, 03:30 AM
I love love love favor running. The way I do it is I get a toon up to higher levels and then go back and do all the lower stuff I missed. You feel godlike. lol
I agree that maybe it's time to rethink the level back to 1000 favor instead of 1750 or maybe even down to like 1250 but I still love to go back and do it. I know lots of people who don't bother on their 32pt builds to worry about it but I've done it on a couple just for the tome.
Hubby and I are always open to helping with favor runs as well. Look us up. We play on Khyber and Argo. Look for the Shy's or the John's :)

Deadz
02-17-2009, 06:54 AM
No I think 32pt are a reward anyone who thinks otherwise is a whiner and I would rather see them quit then hear them whine think about that.

i hope noone lets you raise children, lol

Rholt25
02-17-2009, 07:00 AM
I think 32 point builds should be harder to get. Also, I think that you should only be able to use it ONLY on the Toon that you actually got the favor on. So if you do want a 32 point toon, you would have to reroll the toon that you got it on.

Deadz
02-17-2009, 07:09 AM
Due to technical issues I started over on a new server so I have no gear to twink my guys nor do I have 32pt builds yet I am very happy without either and no I am not transfering one of my 32pt builds to unlock to me its a waste of money at the price it is. And it does have a positive for me its a goal to reach but not to grind for I am working at it as I go about making my new characters again anyone crying is a whiner and needs to find a game they like better because if it wasnt this they would be crying about something else.

tip for you, you are honestly just making yourself look petty and childish by inserting "you are a whiner" into a very good debate about the pro's and con's of making a change like this to the game. Which, imo, won't really do much more then be a nice debate, except for that child saying "you are a whiner" every other post..

Seriously, try to be constructive instead of childish, it might due you some good in life.
You currently look the fool.

RazorrX
02-17-2009, 07:16 AM
It took me a long time to get to 1750 favor. A very long time. I unlocked Drow, played him until he was about 3-400 shy of 1750 and rolled another character to help some friends who had just come to the game, helped level them up, etc. but always was striving for that 1750 favor. (and that character was a 28 pt halfling that I still have)

I personally just do not like to play drow (old pnp bias, they are monsters not players).

I disagree with all the whining. It gave me something to strive for. It gave me a goal besides the next loot run.

I learned a lot during the time I got that favor. I *hopefully* learned to play a bit better, learned how to make a DDO character vs a PnP character, etc. As gimped as my original drow favor monkey is, I still think the biggest difference between him and others is gear. I have HORRIBLE loot pulls. Either it is something I can not use at all (non prof weapon) or wrong race (WHY do I only pull WF only items when i do not play WF???)

So I totally disagree with the whole "Give me this free" thing. No. Go earn something for once.

Freeman
02-17-2009, 07:31 AM
You might want an advantage over new players, but many of us would rather have a more equal playing field... Nobody here (except perhaps you) is whining about anything. I have 32 point builds. I just think it is asinine that I get bonuses over new players like deadz just because I have been around longer.

Again, allowing anyone to make 32pt characters from the start would NOT equal the playing field. It would give anyone with high level 28pt chars a disadvantage, simply because they had been around longer. At least current new players can KNOW they need to hit 1750 favor before they can create 32pt characters. Those of us that were with the game in the beginning couldn't know that, so we didn't have the option to get the favor before we rolled up more characters. I know several players that have five or more capped 28pt chars that they still play regularly. How does access to 32pt builds give those characters an advantage over characters that a new player makes?

Dexxaan
02-17-2009, 07:51 AM
I'm sure this argument has happened 100 times but let me say my peace, then you can trash it all you want :).
.....SNIP......

Just my opinion, but i can live with trieing like heck to grind out those points to get my 32 pointer, i'd just rather roll my 32 point rogue and enjoy him :).

First of all, thanks for permission to thrash this.

Secondly and most important, and like your Title says:

"Noob thinks 32 pt. builds should be for all"

And I have to agree with you. Why?

Because you´re a noob. And because you are a noob you´d think that.

Just fyi I´d also just like to roll out a Porsche Cayenne Turbo S (like my 65 yr old neighbor does on Sundays - The only day he doesn´t WORK) but guess what I enjoy quality time and work so everything at it´s own time.......sorry no entitlement support from me.

Now stay off the forums and grind some favor! :D

Arianrhod
02-17-2009, 08:08 AM
Sigh....all the vets know first characters are most likely going to get rerolled, no matter how many points they're built with. But that doesn't change the fact no one wants to admit it when first starting out. We all want to think we're the exception, the one who will get it right the first time. That's what makes the "starter character" concept rankle so. Since it really doesn't matter that much (as most people seem to agree), there really isn't much downside to replacing the 1750 favor reward with something else (that rewards the character earning it, rather than some other character that doesn't exist yet), PROVIDED all 28-point characters get the extra 4 build points as soon as the change goes live.

If everyone started with 32-point builds, most first characters would still get rerolled; we know that. But it would remove the "training wheels" image new players are currently stuck with.

Deadz
02-17-2009, 08:10 AM
First of all, thanks for permission to thrash this.

Secondly and most important, and like your Title says:

"Noob thinks 32 pt. builds should be for all"

And I have to agree with you. Why?

Because you´re a noob. And because you are a noob you´d think that.
- even though in reality i been around ddo for more then a year, i just like the title :P

Just fyi I´d also just like to roll out a Porsche Cayenne Turbo S (like my 65 yr old neighbor does on Sundays - The only day he doesn´t WORK) but guess what I enjoy quality time and work so everything at it´s own time.......sorry no entitlement support from me.
-- i worked hard for my house, my cars, paid of my college loans, oh graduated college, take care of sick family members, raise my newborn.. i do plenty of things i have to "work" at w/ life, this is something that's "play time" it shouldn't feel like work.

Now stay off the forums and grind some favor! :D
--I have to work, unfortunately :)


But forums really do pass the time at work.

One more thing i'd like to add to my opinion on this subject, is people talk about earning favor, yet most favor runs i see are people standing around while higher lvls do the favor earning.. People say "EARN IT!!!" yet the mechanic makes it so most people who power through it don't earn it, don't participate, they run along, loot the chests, and get the favor, without doing anything.

YOur all SNOWED if you think it's anything other then breed a culture of not playing a game, but having others do it for you.

Deadz
02-17-2009, 08:12 AM
No. Go earn something for once.

Again, if it was something i could earn on that character i'd have no problem, but instead, i'm spending time on these favor runs being in quests i have no business being let in the front door, collecting loot i shouldn't be able to loot, and basically just playing follow the leader.. It's not about earning it, when most people who power through favor aren't doing any of the "work" you seem to think we should all do.

Deadz
02-17-2009, 08:13 AM
PROVIDED all 28-point characters get the extra 4 build points as soon as the change goes live.

See very tough change to make, cause with 4 extra build points, who knows how a character would have been built, when costs of stats scale..

Dexxaan
02-17-2009, 08:20 AM
Again, if it was something i could earn on that character i'd have no problem, but instead, i'm spending time on these favor runs being in quests i have no business being let in the front door, collecting loot i shouldn't be able to loot, and basically just playing follow the leader.. It's not about earning it, when most people who power through favor aren't doing any of the "work" you seem to think we should all do.

Let me get this right. You´re complaining because others are doing the work for your favor grinding. (nowadays simply levelling a toon to Level 11-12 is pretty much a 1750 guarantee....BTW)

I´m starting to believe you´d complain if people join your favor runs and YOU did all the work also.

Which leads me to conclude your gonna complain no matter what.

Start twisting whats been said in this thread a bit and you´ll officially be a member of the ........ (avoiding infraction points.....) ..... Power Gamer, Warforged and something else hating club. :D

Deadz
02-17-2009, 08:27 AM
Let me get this right. You´re complaining because others are doing the work for your favor grinding. (nowadays simply levelling a toon to Level 11-12 is pretty much a 1750 guarantee....BTW)

I´m starting to believe you´d complain if people join your favor runs and YOU did all the work also.


Which leads me to conclude your gonna complain no matter what.

Start twisting whats been said in this thread a bit and you´ll officially be a member of the ........ (avoiding infraction points.....) ..... Power Gamer, Warforged and something else hating club. :D

Your comments lead me to believe that you have nothing to add so are starting to result to name calling, nice!

I don't think i'm twisting anything at all, you can say whatever you wish..

I think my point is pretty strait forward, that i personally feel that it's starts the game off on a negative for a new player, and a better mechanic for 1750 rewards could be in place, and a lot of people with 32 points seem to agree, as well as disagree, which there is nothing wrong with at all.

I personally said "i have to do what to start building characters with the same starting points as everyone else? WHAAA????" and know a lot of newish players say the same thing. You can read through the thread, see the give and take nature of the conversation on the subject..

People seem to get very worked up over this video game..

redoubt
02-17-2009, 08:43 AM
The problem is that it rewards the person, not the character. This is entirely different than the way most games work, and there is a reason for that.

Most console games have you unlock new and more powerful things. That also rewards the player. So I do not see this as different than the way "Most" games work.

How many people would play chess, if there were some rule like once you have won 100 games, you can thereafter move a pawn like a bishop for one move in any game. Even if you are playing against a new player who wasn't involved in any of those first 100 games.

In that instance you are playing against someone else. We are not playing against each other. (No, PvP doesn't count, this is a team game.)

Or, we could have a Pac Man tournament where last year's leading scorers get an extra second of invulnerability after eating the big dot in the corner. Anyone new coming in would have to do without. How many new players would join that tournament?

Same comment as above. You are trying to use justification based on games where you play against each other. But, because we play together, as a team, your comparision falls short and is irrelevant.

You might want an advantage over new players, but many of us would rather have a more equal playing field... Nobody here (except perhaps you) is whining about anything. I have 32 point builds. I just think it is asinine that I get bonuses over new players like deadz just because I have been around longer.

The playing field is equal. ANYONE can get the favor.

Do you really think you should go to your brand new job and get the same pay and benifits as someone who has been there three years longer than you? Of course you do not, you are a smart person. You understand that you have to earn it.

Same here. True, its a game and not a job in the real world. But why is it so bad that you play the game a bit to unlock something more powerful?

Thoreg
02-17-2009, 08:43 AM
Again, if it was something i could earn on that character i'd have no problem, but instead, i'm spending time on these favor runs being in quests i have no business being let in the front door, collecting loot i shouldn't be able to loot, and basically just playing follow the leader.. It's not about earning it, when most people who power through favor aren't doing any of the "work" you seem to think we should all do.

What are you talking about?!? You are complaining because some people are doing everything for you and you're just sitting in the quest with your hands in your pockets?
Jeez! I would've loved to have someone to run through a quest while I just sat there. No I had to put up my LFM and hope some others needed the quest too. Dude you need to get realistic, if what you wanted happened. There would be a mass exodus of players from DDO, especially me. So don't hold your breathe.

RazorrX
02-17-2009, 08:50 AM
Again, if it was something i could earn on that character i'd have no problem, but instead, i'm spending time on these favor runs being in quests i have no business being let in the front door, collecting loot i shouldn't be able to loot, and basically just playing follow the leader.. It's not about earning it, when most people who power through favor aren't doing any of the "work" you seem to think we should all do.

I personally bled for every favor point. It was not until i had about 50 or so left that I ran back to a few low level quests and hammered them out. I never stood at a door and let others get it for me. Most times I simply had not run elite on upper level quests so we went and did those.

So you can actually Earn your favor or have someone earn it for you.

But either way . . . you should earn it.

Deadz
02-17-2009, 08:53 AM
What are you talking about?!? You are complaining because some people are doing everything for you and you're just sitting in the quest with your hands in your pockets?
Jeez! I would've loved to have someone to run through a quest while I just sat there. No I had to put up my LFM and hope some others needed the quest too. Dude you need to get realistic, if what you wanted happened. There would be a mass exodus of players from DDO, especially me. So don't hold your breathe.
-that what a favor run is, they happen all the time on all servers, besides xp weekends they are going on every night, most people power to 1750 doing these 'runs' in the current state of ddo..

And i doubt your mass exodus of players would occur, in fact, i know of a few players myself who would come to DDO, and others "vets included" have said the same thing.. but you are 100% entitled to your opinion.

Deadz
02-17-2009, 08:55 AM
I personally bled for every favor point. It was not until i had about 50 or so left that I ran back to a few low level quests and hammered them out. I never stood at a door and let others get it for me. Most times I simply had not run elite on upper level quests so we went and did those.

So you can actually Earn your favor or have someone earn it for you.

But either way . . . you should earn it.

I think i'm talking myself in circles now.. but yeah i get where your coming from.. how about i'll report back AFTER i get to 1750 and we can all see if i have the same opinion..

Girevik
02-17-2009, 08:58 AM
(nowadays simply levelling a toon to Level 11-12 is pretty much a 1750 guarantee....BTW)

No it isn't. Not by a long shot. Not if you actually earn your way to 11-12 without coasting in on the coat-tails of "openers".

What I mean is, if you run quests on Normal+Hard+Elite you end up with a lot more experience, but the same favor, as the Elite only player.

As an example, my Cleric is level 13.5 or so, and only has 1350 or so favor. The group I run with has characters in the 15's and none of them have hit 1750 yet (on those characters).

And OUR GOALS are usually based on earning favor. Not so much the 1750, but the smaller house favor marks. That means we very rarely repeat quests for which we already have the favor. We almost never run quests where somebody doesn't need the favor.

Is is possible to hit 1750 by 11-12, of course. Is it guaranteed, not by a long shot.

Aganazer
02-17-2009, 09:04 AM
1750, the only way to get a full respec, and only once. Do it Turbine. Do it. Make us happy.

Dexxaan
02-17-2009, 09:06 AM
No it isn't. Not by a long shot. Not if you actually earn your way to 11-12 without coasting in on the coat-tails of "openers".

What I mean is, if you run quests on Normal+Hard+Elite you end up with a lot more experience, but the same favor, as the Elite only player.

As an example, my Cleric is level 13.5 or so, and only has 1350 or so favor. The group I run with has characters in the 15's and none of them have hit 1750 yet (on those characters).

And OUR GOALS are usually based on earning favor. Not so much the 1750, but the smaller house favor marks. That means we very rarely repeat quests for which we already have the favor. We almost never run quests where somebody doesn't need the favor.

Is is possible to hit 1750 by 11-12, of course. Is it guaranteed, not by a long shot.

OK so if you do things in a selective manner maybe it´s not guaranteed, but allow me to compare today´s favor grind to the mod 4 was it (Cap at Level 10) Favor grind to get 1750.

Holy hell, you had to pretty much run every quest out there (and on Elite) to hit 1750, nowadays you can pick and choose which ones you want, some on hard most on elite to be more effective, but the word "grind" is almost not applicable.

Borror0
02-17-2009, 09:09 AM
Most console games have you unlock new and more powerful things.
Not that this is an important argument of yours, but you do know this is an appeal to the majority?

Anyway, posts like HJH's are missing the point. It's NOT about power level, because the difference between 28 point buy and 32 point buy is not big enough to be problematic in that aspect. The problem is that it is a reward that is not retrospective. It rewards you for playing less characters, and that is not a good thing nor is it fun.

People's solution to "roll a non-stat dependent character and grind it" exposes the problem.

How can anyone reliable think that this is more fun than to play the game and just gain 1750 favor whenever you feel like it, on whatever character you'd like?

HumanJHawkins
02-17-2009, 06:18 PM
The playing field is equal. ANYONE can get the favor.

Do you really think you should go to your brand new job and get the same pay and benifits as someone who has been there three years longer than you? Of course you do not, you are a smart person. You understand that you have to earn it.

Same here. True, its a game and not a job in the real world. But why is it so bad that you play the game a bit to unlock something more powerful?

No. It's not equal. Two players decide to roll a new character. One is a vertean and the other is new to the game. They both start what is the equivalent of a new game and end up running together. Not only does the vertean have experience, quest knowledge, and access to plenty of twink gear, but we are going to add insult to injury by giving him yet another bonus over the new guy.

How is that fun for the new guy?

Fenrisulven6
02-17-2009, 06:46 PM
We all had to work for our 1750 favor, so should the new players.

I thought the argument was "the road to 1750 is easy for newbies", not "we had to bleed to get 1750 so they should too"

Strakeln
02-17-2009, 06:51 PM
Not going to read whole thread and dont know if this have been mentioned earlier... They could just made so that 28 point build would have "special" tome as a reward that would make them essentially to 32 point build after reaching 1750 favor.

This would mean that your "grinding" 28 point would become 32 point build (and all builds after that just like now) and you still had reason to get that 1750 favor.My latest 32-point has +2 or +3 tomes in every stat. That +2 tome for my original 28-point? Not so hot.

Strakeln
02-17-2009, 06:53 PM
I think 32 point builds should be harder to get. Also, I think that you should only be able to use it ONLY on the Toon that you actually got the favor on. So if you do want a 32 point toon, you would have to reroll the toon that you got it on.While i highly dislike this idea, it is a fair system, and one I would support more than the current system.

branmakmuffin
02-17-2009, 09:40 PM
The problem is that it rewards the person, not the character. This is entirely different than the way most games work, and there is a reason for that.

How many people would play chess, if there were some rule like once you have won 100 games, you can thereafter move a pawn like a bishop for one move in any game. Even if you are playing against a new player who wasn't involved in any of those first 100 games.

Or, we could have a Pac Man tournament where last year's leading scorers get an extra second of invulnerability after eating the big dot in the corner. Anyone new coming in would have to do without. How many new players would join that tournament?
Those are inapt analogies because DDO is not a player-vs.-player game, like chess or a Pac Man toe-ornament.


You might want an advantage over new players, but many of us would rather have a more equal playing field... Nobody here (except perhaps you) is whining about anything. I have 32 point builds. I just think it is asinine that I get bonuses over new players like deadz just because I have been around longer.
It's not because you've been around longer, it's because you've played more. I've been around longer than you, and I am not even close to unlocking 32-points, especially in light of the fact that I deleted and re-rolled my highest favor character (my current highest favor character isn't even at 400 yet).

Hafeal
02-17-2009, 10:54 PM
I agree with the OP and, as has been well put, 32 pt builds was a mistake as a reward at 1750. It showed a lack of imagination and game relevance as to the character you had spent time playing. The +2 tome made a difference. Perhaps NOT getting a +2 tome with a 32 point character would level the field.

That being said, the stats don't mean much. Turbine continues to endorse it because they have a lot of other things to worry about. I would hope when the revamp the favor system at some point this will be fixed.

As for those who wallow in the "I did it so you need to" crowd, I agree a "reward" of some type would be appropriate but it should be a different reward - perhaps a unique item or attribute for your character who has "earned" this xp.

If you really want to "reward" an account (not just a character) on a server, 32 points should be tied to something like 12 consecutive months of subscription. I believe that would be a more appropriate showing of appreciation.

:)

Uska
02-17-2009, 11:23 PM
i hope noone lets you raise children, lol

I have kids proably older then you are and they agree with me to heck with whiners earn it.

Uska
02-17-2009, 11:25 PM
tip for you, you are honestly just making yourself look petty and childish by inserting "you are a whiner" into a very good debate about the pro's and con's of making a change like this to the game. Which, imo, won't really do much more then be a nice debate, except for that child saying "you are a whiner" every other post..

Seriously, try to be constructive instead of childish, it might due you some good in life.
You currently look the fool.

and you look like a whiner look it up hmm because thats all you are doing jr.

Xalted_Vol
02-18-2009, 03:57 AM
People are not learning anything sitting at the door while the 16th lvl guy clears the dungeon on elite so you get your favor. It should be changed and we should all start out the same.:DA new player should not have to find out he only had 28 points to build his first gimped 8 lvl wis 5 lvl sorc :) We should start out on the same playing field some shouldnt get better fertilizer then others one love one love :)

Uska
02-18-2009, 04:11 AM
people Are Not Learning Anything Sitting At The Door While The 16th Lvl Guy Clears The Dungeon On Elite So You Get Your Favor. It Should Be Changed And We Should All Start Out The Same.:da New Player Should Not Have To Find Out He Only Had 28 Points To Build His First Gimped 8 Lvl Wis 5 Lvl Sorc :) We Should Start Out On The Same Playing Field Some Shouldnt Get Better Fertilizer Then Others One Love One Love :)

Umm What?

Xalted_Vol
02-18-2009, 04:18 AM
umm what is a larp is that a vampire thing ??? I am protected from all forms of magic.

Xylitol
02-18-2009, 06:27 AM
My latest 32-point has +2 or +3 tomes in every stat. That +2 tome for my original 28-point? Not so hot.

I ment that "special" tome is special so that it wont count as normal tome bonus. IE you could have that special tome and normal +3 tome in same star. That way "grinding" 28 point build would get closer to 32 point build.

Strakeln
02-18-2009, 11:21 AM
I ment that "special" tome is special so that it wont count as normal tome bonus. IE you could have that special tome and normal +3 tome in same star. That way "grinding" 28 point build would get closer to 32 point build.That would be interesting, but would arguably only work if they don't give a "special" tome reward to 32-point builds.

The overall problem here though is that this solution still doesn't treat all equally. I think some of the prior suggestions might be better suited.

branmakmuffin
02-18-2009, 12:06 PM
I have kids proably older then you are and they agree with me to heck with whiners earn it.
I can only reiterate that I agree with this sentiment (and let me remind everyone that I have not unlocked 32-point builds).

It's a marketing tool, aimed at people who play a lot. Give it to everyone and then Turbine will have to come up with something else to placate the 40-hour/week gamers. Although, heck, there probably needs to be more favor rewards added at higher levels than 1750, possibly even (ugh) respecs.

Borror0
02-18-2009, 12:15 PM
It's a marketing tool, aimed at people who play a lot. Give it to everyone and then Turbine will have to come up with something else to placate the 40-hour/week gamers. Although, heck, there probably needs to be more favor rewards added at higher levels than 1750, possibly even (ugh) respecs.
How does that conflict with allowing 28 point buy builds to improve into 32 point buy builds when acquired?

Uska
02-18-2009, 12:47 PM
How does that conflict with allowing 28 point buy builds to improve into 32 point buy builds when acquired?

I agree 28pt characters should get upgraded when they hit 1750 favor or even when you get your 32pt on that server but neve should we just give 32pt builds to new people just because they whiners say so I dont really think it would make the differnece of many people in staying as they cry about one thing they cry about something else.

Strakeln
02-18-2009, 12:51 PM
It's a marketing tool, aimed at people who play a lot. Give it to everyone and then Turbine will have to come up with something else to placate the 40-hour/week gamers. Although, heck, there probably needs to be more favor rewards added at higher levels than 1750, possibly even (ugh) respecs.It's a failed marketing tool. Give it to everyone and Turbine can use one of the many, many suggestions for replacement of that carrot (they don't even have to "come up with it" themselves!!!). 40 hour/week gamers will not leave the game in any significant number as a result of this change... they long ago obtained that carrot.

Deadz
02-18-2009, 01:00 PM
I agree 28pt characters should get upgraded when they hit 1750 favor or even when you get your 32pt on that server but neve should we just give 32pt builds to new people just because they whiners say so I dont really think it would make the differnece of many people in staying as they cry about one thing they cry about something else.

Yes we have all heard you say everyone who agrees is crying and we are all whiners.. grow up

Borror0
02-18-2009, 01:01 PM
I agree 28pt characters should get upgraded when they hit 1750 favor or even when you get your 32pt on that server but neve should we just give 32pt builds to new people
Glad we agree on this.

muffinlad
02-18-2009, 01:02 PM
I like the idea. Maybe just drop 32 down to 1000 and keep the +2 tome at 1750.

I hate posts that basically say "I said we should do that XX years ago, when this started"...so in the sprit of my own hypocricy....I said, at the time they were rolling this out that 1750 was too much to unlock 32 point toons, and there was not enough of a difference in the reward levels-

400 granting drow- Super!
1350 points before you get something else....."Shakes head in disbelief".

Yes, you are getting different "house rewards", but even those are suspect at their levels-

All in all, 1750 is not too hard of a level for +4 on all following characters AND a +2Tome....but they should have broken the rewards out differently...say-

400- Drow
800- +1 Bound Tome
1200 - 32 point build
1600 - +2 Bound Tome
2000 - Shroud Blank
2400 - +3 Bound Tome
2800 - Summon Dancing Vixens.

Etc.

Regs

muffinfavorite

PS. The House Rewards need a change as well......75/150.....then 400? And the 400 for Free Agents is pretty crappy and should be changed to repairing bound items, while 400 Silver Flame is kind of cool, but limited by the amount of quests you HAVE to do to get that level of favor.

Borror0
02-18-2009, 01:02 PM
It's a failed marketing tool.
How so? It does give new players something to look up to.

I might have missed a post where you elaborated more on it, if so you can just link it to me and I'll reply to that post.

muffinlad
02-18-2009, 01:07 PM
1750, the only way to get a full respec, and only once. Do it Turbine. Do it. Make us happy.

Nice...I like this idea as well.

muffinmetooer

Suzaku
02-18-2009, 01:08 PM
I just don't care for the hazing of getting 1750 favor before I can grab 1750 favor just to make the character I want.

ahpook
02-18-2009, 01:11 PM
It's a marketing tool, aimed at people who play a lot. Give it to everyone and then Turbine will have to come up with something else to placate the 40-hour/week gamers. Although, heck, there probably needs to be more favor rewards added at higher levels than 1750, possibly even (ugh) respecs.

It was a marketing tool that made sense when it was released to players who already had 5 or 6 28 pt characters. They would want to reroll all of them to 32 point builds and would have to do so 5 or 6 times. Now it is poor marketing tool because power gamers already have it and 1750 favor holds no value or they run one character to 1750 before rolling any other toons.

"I had to earn my favor and so should new players"

I don't think that anyone is saying that people should not have to earn 1750 favor. In fact, I would be in favor of changing favor so that if you are too high level (or low level) to get XP, you should get no favor credit. What they are saying is that the reward for 1750 is not effective nor does it make for good game play. I think there are lot favor rewards that make more sense from the character perspective, for gameplay AND for player retention. Of course, this was all brought up at the time it was introduced and basically Turbine made their decision against these arguments. The horse is dead.

krud
02-18-2009, 01:11 PM
I agree with the OP and, as has been well put, 32 pt builds was a mistake as a reward at 1750. It showed a lack of imagination and game relevance as to the character you had spent time playing. The +2 tome made a difference. Perhaps NOT getting a +2 tome with a 32 point character would level the field.
:)
the 32 pt build was made to offset the advantages that drow got. Without it drow would have been the better choice for quite a few builds. People were complaining that rogues, wizzies and sorcs were all becoming drow (at least if you were one of those that really cared about maximizing your stats). They needed something comparable for the other races and this is what we got.

Trying to equalize the field with tomes is a bad way to do it, because anyone can always get a tome through loot. Perhaps a better way is to give the charcater an option to go to creation screen and reroll into 32pts, keeping all gear, favor and tomes. Just have him visit the trainers to level himself up to where he was before. However, once that kind reroll option is out there, everyone is going to demand it be made available as a respec otion whenever they feel their character is nerfed, regardless of favor.

Strakeln
02-18-2009, 01:12 PM
How so? It does give new players something to look up to.

I might have missed a post where you elaborated more on it, if so you can just link it to me and I'll reply to that post.IMO, it provides more discouragement to new players than it does enticement.

While not as intended, one way new players can (and some - many? - do) see it is as follows:

"Welcome to DDO, where new players are handicapped. In order to remove this handicap and even out the playing field, you must play the game for a couple months then start over again"

ahpook
02-18-2009, 01:20 PM
How so? It does give new players something to look up to.


It is failed because you only need to get it on one character (power gamers don't care about the +2 tomes, heck I barely care enough about them to go for 1750). You really want something to drive players to get it on every character they play so you need something not attainable elsewhere and worth getting repeatedly.

And it makes new players feel even more inferior to long term players and can be a disincentive because the best thing you can do when hitting 1750 favor is to quit playing the character that just accomplished that milestone. Does that not sound stupid?

Borror0
02-18-2009, 01:24 PM
"Welcome to DDO, where new players are handicapped. In order to remove this handicap and even out the playing field, you must play the game for a couple months then start over again"
You and aphook have missed this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2059115#post2059115).

Of course I agree that without upgrade, it is a failed marketing tool but there is no reason to throw the baby with the bath water.

Toronus
02-18-2009, 02:37 PM
I'm thinken if the +2 tome you get was stackable or the guy just raises any stat by 2 and leaves it open to another tome use... that would fix it all.

krud
02-18-2009, 02:39 PM
IMO, it provides more discouragement to new players than it does enticement.
the glass is half full
While not as intended, one way new players can (and some - many? - do) see it is as follows:

"Welcome to DDO, where new players are handicapped. In order to remove this handicap and even out the playing field, you must play the game for a couple months then start over again"
or the glass is half empty.

It all depends on how you view it, and where you view the start. If you view the start at the beginning of character creation, then yes, people who have been around for a while start with an advantage; either in favor, tomes, loot, knowledge, etc. However, if you view the beginning as when you start playing DDO, then everyone playing DDO starts at the same place. Nobody starts with an advantage. Your first character starts from the exact same starting line as everyone else's 1st character. From that standpoint, everyone is equal. What you do after that is entirely up to you.

If you are trying to say that everyone's 1st character should start at the same place as everyone else's 5th or 6th character, well that's different. Why wouldn't turbine want these new people to stick around for a year or two in order to get to the same place that older players are? Is it that way in other MMOs, or are newer players automatically accelerated to the point where people who have been around for a while are?

Deadz
02-18-2009, 02:56 PM
Again, last night i had about 20+ minutes, with some wife aggro.. which is cool, so i figured, "hey maybe i can find a quest to solo" i read through my logs for a while and had trouble finding one "had to do alot of reading on net to figure out where they were." then.. thought oh i'll play my alt...nope no alt, what's the point if i'm gonna reroll.. i had trouble finding soloable favor "even for 2 points" and felt playing alt was a waste..

On the bright side i enjoyed the game of NHL2k8 i played, crosby had a goal and two assists for the penguins..

adding: trouble finding one for favor.
Now i hear the "a mmo" is not for you calls about to come in, but heck isn't everyone's 15 bucks worth 15 bucks to turbine? Again.. it's the FEELING i get, whether or not it's reality is another thing.. and it's my OPINION ...

Girevik
02-18-2009, 03:26 PM
i had trouble finding soloable favor "even for 2 points" and felt playing alt was a waste..

First, I agree with you that 32 pt builds should be for all.

Second, when you are in that situation again, you might find you can advance your kill count in an explorer area. While that won't directly gain you favor, it should be a step to gaining you experience, and eventually levels, which will make you stronger, and more capable of running more difficult quests (either alone or in groups) that in return net you more favor.

Guildmaster_Kadish
02-18-2009, 03:32 PM
As a founder... [snip] ...I wasn't even given the option to play a single character to 1750 before I created any alts. So I have a hard time feeling bad for new players who do have that option. I'm not huge on grind, and I hate getting 1750 favor, but without a way to convert existing 28-pt builds to 32 I really can't be in favor of giving away 32-pt builds to all new players from the start.

Agreed. If 32 point builds are going to be given to everyone, that sort of necessitates conversion of existing builds to 32 point, which would in turn probably lead to a full respec (since you would have had those extra points from the beginning).

frugal_gourmet
02-18-2009, 03:35 PM
I have no problem with 1750 unlocking 32 point builds. As long as there is some way to get that benefit with the character who unlocked it.

Deadz
02-18-2009, 03:42 PM
First, I agree with you that 32 pt builds should be for all.

Second, when you are in that situation again, you might find you can advance your kill count in an explorer area. While that won't directly gain you favor, it should be a step to gaining you experience, and eventually levels, which will make you stronger, and more capable of running more difficult quests (either alone or in groups) that in return net you more favor.

Yeah i just started checking out these zones, like 3 barrel cove, but thanks, i kinda forget about that.

Hafeal
02-18-2009, 06:48 PM
the 32 pt build was made to offset the advantages that drow got. Without it drow would have been the better choice for quite a few builds. People were complaining that rogues, wizzies and sorcs were all becoming drow (at least if you were one of those that really cared about maximizing your stats). They needed something comparable for the other races and this is what we got.

Trying to equalize the field with tomes is a bad way to do it, because anyone can always get a tome through loot. Perhaps a better way is to give the charcater an option to go to creation screen and reroll into 32pts, keeping all gear, favor and tomes. Just have him visit the trainers to level himself up to where he was before. However, once that kind reroll option is out there, everyone is going to demand it be made available as a respec otion whenever they feel their character is nerfed, regardless of favor.

Good, fair points. Maybe the mistake was making drow 32 pt builds? Make them 28 with the other abilities they already had and allow them to be upgraded to 32 points with any other race once that character reached 1750? :o

krud
02-18-2009, 07:17 PM
Good, fair points. Maybe the mistake was making drow 32 pt builds? Make them 28 with the other abilities they already had and allow them to be upgraded to 32 points with any other race once that character reached 1750? :o
drow aren't really 32pt builds. You still get only 28pts, but they have three stats that start off at 10, and one at 6. Most others have only one at 10 and one at 6. In some ways it can be better than a 32pt build.

Deadz
02-19-2009, 07:58 AM
Good, fair points. Maybe the mistake was making drow 32 pt builds? Make them 28 with the other abilities they already had and allow them to be upgraded to 32 points with any other race once that character reached 1750? :o

See that was be awesome too.. but it's hard to get 4 extra build points due to scaling stat points, but if you knew in advance that would be different.

Hafeal
02-19-2009, 11:26 AM
drow aren't really 32pt builds. You still get only 28pts, but they have three stats that start off at 10, and one at 6. Most others have only one at 10 and one at 6. In some ways it can be better than a 32pt build.

That's right, excellent observation. Still it is a 4 point difference with the 4 points spent for you essentially - still 4 more than you get with the 28, eh? :D

In the end, in terms of story and game-play, I would think a reward for THAT character is appropriate when you 1750 or whatever Turbine changes it to at some point.

I think another "reward" or "loyalty" system which rewards your ACCOUNT could also be set up - like other retailers or product providers. Thus, even as a casual player, if you subscribe long enough (3 mos., 6 mos., etc) or invite a certain number of other people to join the game, I think ACCOUNT wide benefits, like opening 32 pts, opening them all servers, transfer character credits, etc ... would be appropriate.

Zenako
02-19-2009, 11:32 AM
That's right, excellent observation. Still it is a 4 point difference with the 4 points spent for you essentially - still 4 more than you get with the 28, eh? :D

In the end, in terms of story and game-play, I would think a reward for THAT character is appropriate when you 1750 or whatever Turbine changes it to at some point.

I think another "reward" or "loyalty" system which rewards your ACCOUNT could also be set up - like other retailers or product providers. Thus, even as a casual player, if you subscribe long enough (3 mos., 6 mos., etc) or invite a certain number of other people to join the game, I think ACCOUNT wide benefits, like opening 32 pts, opening them all servers, transfer character credits, etc ... would be appropriate.

But something like your last suggestion would do nothing to address the "its unfair to make me start with gimped characters" arguement that is central to this whole discussion about how it handicaps players who are starting now. The fact everyone STARTED the game with the same options, is not considered by those who want new players to start out with a free boost.

Deadz
02-19-2009, 11:37 AM
But something like your last suggestion would do nothing to address the "its unfair to make me start with gimped characters" arguement that is central to this whole discussion about how it handicaps players who are starting now. The fact everyone STARTED the game with the same options, is not considered by those who want new players to start out with a free boost.

Honestly, i don't even think it's unfair, I don't think the characters are really gimped, i think it just creates that illusion....
...which unfortunately is enough of an illusion to turn some off to the game...

Hafeal
02-19-2009, 11:38 AM
I thought I addressed that earlier but let me restate it more clearly. At some point you have to draw a line in the sand. No matter where you are - ahead or behind of the line, someone will be unhappy. With anything - favor, gameplay changes, etc...

I just don't subscribe to the "I had to do it so you have to" mentality. Further, changing the mechanic giving 32 point builds really does not affect anyone's gameplay for the worse. The fact that your neighbor may not have had to do the same thing as you to get 32 point builds does not impact your gameplay negatively - in fact, it might help if it makes your fellow players better. :)



But something like your last suggestion would do nothing to address the "its unfair to make me start with gimped characters" arguement that is central to this whole discussion about how it handicaps players who are starting now. The fact everyone STARTED the game with the same options, is not considered by those who want new players to start out with a free boost.

Deadz
02-19-2009, 11:39 AM
I thought I addressed that earlier but let me restate it more clearly. At some point you have to draw a line in the sand. No matter where you are - ahead or behind of the line, someone will be unhappy. With anything - favor, gameplay changes, etc...

I just don't subscribe to the "I had to do it so you have to" mentality. Further, changing the mechanic giving 32 point builds really does not affect anyone's gameplay for the worse. The fact that your neighbor may not have had to do the same thing as you to get 32 point builds does not impact your gameplay negatively - in fact, it might help if it makes your fellow players better. :)
Exactly

Arianrhod
02-19-2009, 12:22 PM
But something like your last suggestion would do nothing to address the "its unfair to make me start with gimped characters" arguement that is central to this whole discussion about how it handicaps players who are starting now. The fact everyone STARTED the game with the same options, is not considered by those who want new players to start out with a free boost.

But the fact is, players who started before 32-point builds existed started in a very different environment from that which exists for new players now. Back then, groups doing low/mid level quests were plentiful, no one expected vorpals/banishers etc. (let alone W/P). The climb from "brand-new" to "average" wasn't as steep yet.

Zenako
02-19-2009, 12:58 PM
But the fact is, players who started before 32-point builds existed started in a very different environment from that which exists for new players now. Back then, groups doing low/mid level quests were plentiful, no one expected vorpals/banishers etc. (let alone W/P). The climb from "brand-new" to "average" wasn't as steep yet.

I still see tons of LFMs for low level quests every night. Items have no place in this discussion either, since I do not view them as an issue. It is the rare veteran who does NOT just hand off to new players what used to be considered "uber" gear in days gone by. I know I do all the time as do those I play with.

I guess some of the issue is where one considers "average" to be these days. Not sure how much some of those in this thread run with true new players (not just someone on a new alt), but what a vet might consider vendor trash (or just leave in the chest) is often useful or an upgrade to new players gear. But as I said, gear is not supposed to be part of this discussion.

Now my perception is clearly colored by the fact that I have NEVER been tempted to reroll any of my 28 point characters to redo a character due to having gotten 32 point builds. I think I have 2 32 point builds and neither one is really that dependant on having 32 points (caster focused cleric and fighter who also took a level of cleric).

The climb from brand new to average is only steep if you make it so. Nothing in the game requires you to rush to end game other than self imposed wishes. Much of the early game is actually a lot more fun if you view it as an end in and of itself and not as an obstacle to getting to the endgame raid treadmill.

Deadz
02-19-2009, 01:00 PM
I still see tons of LFMs for low level quests every night. Items have no place in this discussion either, since I do not view them as an issue. It is the rare veteran who does NOT just hand off to new players what used to be considered "uber" gear in days gone by. I know I do all the time as do those I play with.

I guess some of the issue is where one considers "average" to be these days. Not sure how much some of those in this thread run with true new players (not just someone on a new alt), but what a vet might consider vendor trash (or just leave in the chest) is often useful or an upgrade to new players gear. But as I said, gear is not supposed to be part of this discussion.

Now my perception is clearly colored by the fact that I have NEVER been tempted to reroll any of my 28 point characters to redo a character due to having gotten 32 point builds. I think I have 2 32 point builds and neither one is really that dependant on having 32 points (caster focused cleric and fighter who also took a level of cleric).

The climb from brand new to average is only steep if you make it so. Nothing in the game requires you to rush to end game other than self imposed wishes. Much of the early game is actually a lot more fun if you view it as an end in and of itself and not as an obstacle to getting to the endgame raid treadmill.
Yeah i see tons of LFM's up as a noob, and as a cleric, well, it's easy as pie getting in quests..

your correct there.

Aranticus
02-19-2009, 01:10 PM
That's right, excellent observation. Still it is a 4 point difference with the 4 points spent for you essentially - still 4 more than you get with the 28, eh? :D

In the end, in terms of story and game-play, I would think a reward for THAT character is appropriate when you 1750 or whatever Turbine changes it to at some point.

I think another "reward" or "loyalty" system which rewards your ACCOUNT could also be set up - like other retailers or product providers. Thus, even as a casual player, if you subscribe long enough (3 mos., 6 mos., etc) or invite a certain number of other people to join the game, I think ACCOUNT wide benefits, like opening 32 pts, opening them all servers, transfer character credits, etc ... would be appropriate.

actually can more than 4 more. try building a drow pally or drow bard and you can see why

krud
02-19-2009, 01:19 PM
actually can more than 4 more. try building a drow pally or drow bard and you can see why
yep, in some cases it's more than a 32pt build. I can think of other builds where base 10 in 2 more stats and 28pts is better than 32 pt. - umd sorcerer, umd rogue assassin.

Zenako
02-19-2009, 01:24 PM
yep, in some cases it's more than a 32pt build. I can think of other builds where base 10 in 2 more stats and 28pts is better than 32 pt. - umd sorcerer, umd rogue assassin.

Yah my 28 Point Drow Bard Spellsinger...has nice Spellsinger stats...

It is way too easy to forget that one stat point might cost 2 or 3 build points during character creation.

and that the Drow stat mods kick in after base cost, so while you are raising that 18 CHA to 19 your cost is only 3 build points, not 4 like the progression would be for a human (if they even could).

To take a Human to 18 CHA requires 16 Build points (8 starting stat + 1 BP each for 9,10,11,12,13,14, 2 BP each for 15,16 and 3 BP each for 17 and 18.
Takes those same 16 BP for a DROW to hit 20 CHA. (While if they even could it would have taken a Human 24 Build Points to hit 20 in any stat).

Since Drow start with 3 Stats (INT, DEX and CHA) with the same +2 Bonus and only CON with -2, it would be possible to really crank the net benefit a ton. Compared to the mostly even +2/-2 balance for all other racial perks (and the NET -2 for WF), they have some serious starting advantages for any class which relies on those stats.

Arianrhod
02-19-2009, 03:19 PM
I still see tons of LFMs for low level quests every night. Items have no place in this discussion either, since I do not view them as an issue. It is the rare veteran who does NOT just hand off to new players what used to be considered "uber" gear in days gone by. I know I do all the time as do those I play with.

I guess some of the issue is where one considers "average" to be these days. Not sure how much some of those in this thread run with true new players (not just someone on a new alt), but what a vet might consider vendor trash (or just leave in the chest) is often useful or an upgrade to new players gear. But as I said, gear is not supposed to be part of this discussion.

Now my perception is clearly colored by the fact that I have NEVER been tempted to reroll any of my 28 point characters to redo a character due to having gotten 32 point builds. I think I have 2 32 point builds and neither one is really that dependant on having 32 points (caster focused cleric and fighter who also took a level of cleric).

The climb from brand new to average is only steep if you make it so. Nothing in the game requires you to rush to end game other than self imposed wishes. Much of the early game is actually a lot more fun if you view it as an end in and of itself and not as an obstacle to getting to the endgame raid treadmill.

All valid points. I'm not trying to claim that new players NEED 32-point builds, only that not having them now is not exactly the same as not having them 2 years ago was. It might be time to get rid of 28-point builds altogether. If not, I'm fine with that. I've done without 32-pointers for 3 years now, I can go on the way things are. I wouldn't feel "punished" or snubbed, though, if things were to change. It's an MMORPG, change is part of the game :)

Hafeal
02-20-2009, 09:08 AM
actually can more than 4 more. try building a drow pally or drow bard and you can see why

I understand, I was commenting to krud re: 32 point builds and his observation that drow are not "really" 32 point builds in that they receive the same number of points to allocate as anyone else. I was pointing out that they have a base of 4 more points than a 28 point though.

Having made a drow bard, I understand your point that as you allocate points, the cost for doing so gives the drow an additional advantage. :)

Deadz
02-20-2009, 09:10 AM
yep, in some cases it's more than a 32pt build. I can think of other builds where base 10 in 2 more stats and 28pts is better than 32 pt. - umd sorcerer, umd rogue assassin.

yeah they are very important in my 19rogue / 1 monk human assassin i want to build :)

Suzaku
02-21-2009, 06:19 PM
I have a question for all those people who say you have to work for the 32 build. How does it effect you if they let everyone have 32 build? And why if you put equal work to a character your 32 build character has to be better off then my 28 build?

branmakmuffin
02-22-2009, 01:18 AM
The fact everyone STARTED the game with the same options, is not considered by those who want new players to start out with a free boost.
Exactly. The same sort of thinking reared its ugly head when non-Dwarves got racial Toughness Enhancements.

To those who think not giving 32-point builds to everyone is bad, a bonus to Fred is not a gimp of Joe.


I have a question for all those people who say you have to work for the 32 build. How does it effect you if they let everyone have 32 build? And why if you put equal work to a character your 32 build character has to be better off then my 28 build?
If everyone gets it, it's no longer a reward.

HumanJHawkins
02-22-2009, 03:01 AM
Exactly. The same sort of thinking reared its ugly head when non-Dwarves got racial Toughness Enhancements.

That's not at all the same. Anyone can roll a dwarf or not. That was changed because dwarves were a bit overpowered.

Some kid with no job might find it easy to play DDO enough to get 1750. For other people it is a real hassle. I'm not saying people shouldn't get a reward for 1750 favor (or any other arbitrary number). I and most people on my side of the issue are simply saying that this is a destructive reward because it results in 2 different classes of characters right from the start.

Strakeln
02-22-2009, 10:36 AM
If everyone gets it, it's no longer a reward.And that's a problem why?

As mentioned many, many, MANY times before, it wouldn't be difficult to come up with a different reward to replace this one.

branmakmuffin
02-22-2009, 06:01 PM
That's not at all the same. Anyone can roll a dwarf or not. That was changed because dwarves were a bit overpowered.
It's exactly the same kind of thinking. People complained that "something else" getting a bonus somehow nerfed "the fist thing."


I and most people on my side of the issue are simply saying that this is a destructive reward because it results in 2 different classes of characters right from the start.
Oh, like you'd ever even notice if you didn't read it in the braggarts' "32-point build" bios.


And that's a problem why?
Because then it's not longer a reward, it's the norm.


As mentioned many, many, MANY times before, it wouldn't be difficult to come up with a different reward to replace this one.
Yes, just replace 32-point build access with a 36-point build access. :rolleyes: The flaw in your reasoning is that it appears to be based on the notion that 28-point builds are somehow "gimped" because of the existence of 32-point builds.

Deadz
02-23-2009, 11:01 AM
The flaw in your reasoning is that it appears to be based on the notion that 28-point builds are somehow "gimped" because of the existence of 32-point builds.
In honesty, the fact if they are or not isn't the issue.. it's how it makes new players feel.

Strakeln
02-23-2009, 11:13 AM
Because then it's not longer a reward, it's the norm.And again I ask... so?


Yes, just replace 32-point build access with a 36-point build access. :rolleyes: The flaw in your reasoning is that it appears to be based on the notion that 28-point builds are somehow "gimped" because of the existence of 32-point builds.Single-minded approach. There have been dozens of reasonable suggestions of rewards to replace this one or to fit into a redesigned favor structure. Many of them are easily as desirable as 32-point builds, but without the inherent penalty of the current 1750 system.

The flaw in your understanding of my reasoning is that it has anything to do with character power and "gimped" status. As I've clearly stated several times, this is about how people feel (new players in particular), not about whether not having 4 points gimps a character.

Zenako
02-23-2009, 11:29 AM
Single-minded approach. There have been dozens of reasonable suggestions of rewards to replace this one or to fit into a redesigned favor structure. Many of them are easily as desirable as 32-point builds, but without the inherent penalty of the current 1750 system.


Let me toss out this. Lets assume some new reward for 1750 is introduced. What it is makes no difference to this arguement. Tell me why we would not then be having this exact discussion once again focused on the NEW 1750 reward and how it makes new players feel gimped when starting out without that perk compared to veterans with 1750 who have that perk.

I think many have concluded that it is the feeling of some new players that they are gimped that is the source of the issue (regardless of whether they are truely gimped or not, it is their feeling that they are that is the point here.) We could change the reward, but how would that address the core feeling?