PDA

View Full Version : Sorcerer Capstone Preview: Power Surge



Eladrin
02-06-2009, 07:29 PM
Wizards may be the masters of metamagic, but the blood of Sorcerers runs filled with power. While the Elemental Savant lines aren't in Module 9, we decided to make the first Sorcerer capstone one that would be appealing to those damage-oriented characters.

Sorcerer Power Surge
Prereqs: Sorcerer Level 20
Benefit: All of your damage dealing spells deal 10% more damage, have their critical chance increased by 3%, and their critical multipliers increased by an additional 0.25.

Obviously, this stacks with all other similar effects, whether they be Potency, Arcane Lore, or the various damage enhancing enhancement lines.

As with the other capstones, subject to change before it goes live.

Edit: EYE KEN SPEL.

Gratch
02-06-2009, 07:30 PM
Can only quote Neo for this:

"Whoa"



Current max is what? 18% crit and 2.75x... so now sorcs can be 21%/3x on crits? Plus the 10% beforehand... and across the board (including disintegrate's untyped).
People will need to update their bio's with new maximum damage amounts.
Hopefully damage actually means something to Mod 9 mobs.... not like the ice giants and ice dragons of Mod 8 with d5000 hit dice.

bobbryan2
02-06-2009, 07:30 PM
What about any changes being made to make damage worthwhile for sorcs to specialize in at end game?

If we have more 1,000,000 HP monsters at lvl 20... you realize this capstone won't be worth the paper it's printed upon... if it were printed upon paper.

Galbbatorix
02-06-2009, 07:31 PM
Awesome, I like it, gonna be very nice on my two sorc's. Thanks for the preview.

Eladrin
02-06-2009, 07:32 PM
What about any changes being made to make damage worthwhile for sorcs to specialize in at end game?

If we have more 1,000,000 HP monsters at lvl 20... you realize this capstone won't be worth the paper it's printed upon... if it were printed upon paper.
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.

bobbryan2
02-06-2009, 07:33 PM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.

That's good to know. Then I guess we'll see the utility of this capstone when we see what you've cooked up for level 20 quests. :)

Tanka
02-06-2009, 07:34 PM
My caster is happy, though he'd like +2 Cha.

dragnmoon
02-06-2009, 07:38 PM
With Every capstone I see... I get more and more disappointed with the Rogue one...

Please oh please change that one to something worthwhile

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 07:39 PM
Benefit: All of your damage dealing spells deal 10% more damage, have their critical chance increased by 3%, and their critical multipliers increased by an additional 0.25.
I guess it's good that it's not a clone of the wizard one. Leaving wizards with a higher DC makes them better at non-DPS spells like Fear and Finger.

(I wonder what the numbers are like for how much damage DBF gains from save DC)

Here's a funny suggestion: Instead of boosted spell crits, each time the sorc makes a spell crit, his body glows and his next spell is an auto-crit.

Gratch
02-06-2009, 07:40 PM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.

Better than any preview news to some of us... (not that we don't love the previews too). Thanks for both.

Ed: BTW, did the recent offsite server power issues (transformer explosion) have anything to do with this week's preview selection of POWER SURGE? Or was it the dice again?

Tanka
02-06-2009, 07:41 PM
Here's a funny suggestion: Instead of boosted spell crits, each time the sorc makes a spell crit, his body glows and his next spell is an auto-crit.
Been playing some TF2 lately?

vyvy3369
02-06-2009, 07:42 PM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.
The best part of this capstone:

(Guild): [Guild] Haeson: garth doesn't like being called mundane by eladrin

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 07:43 PM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.
Mod5 started to paint you into a corner, but there are ways out... good luck, you'll need it.

PS. I really wonder if the original design of The Shroud had expected casters to DPS Arraetrikos...? I guess not.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 07:45 PM
Sorcerer Power Surge
Shouldn't he also get +8 strength (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=164684)?

bobbryan2
02-06-2009, 07:45 PM
Mod5 started to paint you into a corner, but there are ways out... good luck, you'll need it.

PS. I really wonder if the original design of The Shroud had expected casters to DPS Arraetrikos...? I guess not.

Well, if nothing else... Lvl 20 sorcs will be even better at killing the Abbot, Reaver, DQ, and Velah...

Yeah...

cdbd3rd
02-06-2009, 07:46 PM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.


Excellent.

Good luck.

:)

Tanka
02-06-2009, 07:46 PM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.
Glad to know you're aware of the truth that is "Con damage > DPS" for endgame content.

jmonty
02-06-2009, 07:48 PM
cool. nice to see another preview!

i don't have a sorc but i think i'll continue leveling my 5 wizard up nonetheless. :)

bobbryan2
02-06-2009, 07:49 PM
Glad to know you're aware of the truth that is "Con damage > DPS" for endgame content.

And Mundane Damage > > > > > > > Spell casting damage.

The insane increase in Melee DPS and subsequent rise in HP made casting damage worthless for Sorcs...

And unmeta-magiced spell-casting??? That's beyond hilarious. No amount of spell-like abilities will help if they can't be meta-ed.

It's definately not an easy situation they've gotten themselves into.

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-06-2009, 07:54 PM
My caster is happy, though he'd like +2 Cha.

...if you want DCs - go Wizard!

Wizard = DCs
Sorc = DPS!

Garth (who rather resents being called a 'Mundane' by Eladrin)

Starlytes
02-06-2009, 07:54 PM
SHWEET!!!!

Thanks for the info ...

Hope it makes it thru R&D

Tanka
02-06-2009, 07:58 PM
...if you want DCs - go Wizard!

Wizard = DCs
Sorc = DPS!

Garth (who rather resents being called a 'Mundane' by Eladrin)
Most of the best DPS spells have save DCs. Sorcs will be able to throw them faster while Wizards will have them land more reliably for less damage?

...Yup. I still don't like it.

Ed: Also, Wizards get more feats thanks to getting free Metas. So their DCs have the potential of being even higher. Bleh-tastic.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 07:59 PM
Well, if nothing else... Lvl 20 sorcs will be even better at killing the Abbot, Reaver, DQ, and Velah...
D&D includes a pile of spells that inflict stat damage, such as Phantasmal Assailant, Mass Contagion, Memory Rot, Body Harmonic, Ray of Entropy, and even Shivering Touch. If DDO doesn't see a change to make hp damage more important, then it could be time to add some of those spells so that mages can join in the stat-damage festival.

D&D also has Sheltered Vitality, a buff against stat damage...

Junts
02-06-2009, 08:02 PM
Most of the best DPS spells have save DCs. Sorcs will be able to throw them faster while Wizards will have them land more reliably for less damage?

...Yup. I still don't like it.

Ed: Also, Wizards get more feats thanks to getting free Metas. So their DCs have the potential of being even higher. Bleh-tastic.

That's a lie; most of the best dps spells (especially if we gain some kind of good potency 8) lack saving throws:

polar ray
wall of fire
scorching ray
horrid wilting (even untyped..)
acid fog
force missiles
acid arrow, even!
etc

The only good damage spells in the game with saving throws are dbf, cone of cold and disintegrate; most sorcerors, even dps specced ones, carry few saving-throw based damage spells unless they are acid/lightning specced (where they need it for chain and ball lightning).

I bet if you polled damage-specced sorcerors, you'd find a significant majority of their damage spells lack a saving throw.

Rhymer25
02-06-2009, 08:03 PM
I love this capstone, I welcome this capstone, I think you for this capstone, I need this capstone and I just you know really *tear* love this capstone.

GoldyGopher
02-06-2009, 08:03 PM
I know that Eladrin has already commented on one of my complaints but I would like to address another issue.

Due to the mechanics of the game today, the monsters we are fighting that this capstone would be useful against are unfortuantely becoming more and more immune to much of our damage that Sorcs can put out.

So in my mind not only are the end-mobs going to have a gazillion hp, but if they will be immune to almost everything we cast. Thus this capstone is well almost ummm pointless.

Now the game may change a lot between Mod 8 and Mod 9 and that could change mine (and probably others) opinions I put this capstone in the same catagory as the cleric capstone.

Just my two CP worth.

Borror0
02-06-2009, 08:11 PM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.
If you are willing to touch the damage itself, consider:

Lowering the bonus of Potency items. (Has the bonus of making casters less item-dependent.)
Changing dices used to less loaded dices.
Changing the stacking method. (Makes metamagics less must-haves.)


EDIT: Even though it seemed obvious to me, this entails lowering mobs' HP after the listed steps have been done.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 08:13 PM
If you are willing to touch the damage itself, consider:

Lowering the bonus of Potency items. (Has the bonus of making casters less item-dependent.)
Changing dices used to less loaded dices.
Changing the stacking method. (Makes metamagics less must-haves.)

Uh, any of those would make the problem worse...

Borror0
02-06-2009, 08:16 PM
Uh, any of those would make the problem worse...
Enlighten me.

Junts
02-06-2009, 08:17 PM
I admit people seem to be underestimating how much a superior glaciation'd, +50% enhancemented, 20d6 polar ray is gonna do with no save to things; with full metas, we're looking at a 750ish a cast saveless spell. That's nothing to sneeze at, though it's far from godlike, its gonna work on anything that isn't immune to cold, and cost about 75-80sp (when you have 3000), assuming you spend even half your sp on this, its going to add up.

Triple glacial assault sorcs do pretty ok boss dps even now; add +1/4 from increased damage dice and another 10%, and its gonna be solid.

Junts
02-06-2009, 08:18 PM
Enlighten me.


Angelus clearly thinks the problem is that all dps spells are basically almost never worth casting, with the rare exception of things firewall will do double damage to (because fw is persistant, primarily).

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 08:23 PM
Enlighten me.

Are you joking? You can't be serious right? How would lowering the damage... that spell caster can put out... worsen the state... of their damage spells not mattering...


This has to be a joke...


Mobs have 1,000,000 or so hit pints... so yeah lets make the casters able to do less damage. sweet. good idea Bor...


The point was to make casters MORE EFFECTIVE against mobs. not fix the fact that they are "overpowered". How can they be overpowered if the "overpowered nature" of their spells can't do enough damage to matter????????

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 08:24 PM
I admit people seem to be underestimating how much a superior glaciation'd, +50% enhancemented, 20d6 polar ray is gonna do with no save to things; with full metas, we're looking at a 750ish a cast saveless spell. That's nothing to sneeze at, though it's far from godlike, its gonna work on anything that isn't immune to cold, and cost about 75-80sp (when you have 3000), assuming you spend even half your sp on this, its going to add up.

Triple glacial assault sorcs do pretty ok boss dps even now; add +1/4 from increased damage dice and another 10%, and its gonna be solid.

Sweet! So it will only take... say 40 of them to kill a trash mob? Awesome.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 08:24 PM
Enlighten me.
Problem: Damage is not worthwhile
Proposal: Reduce damage
Conclusion: Damage is even less worthwhile

Bronko
02-06-2009, 08:25 PM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'mundane'. My Paladin feels ever so slighted by that :p

But I'm definitely excited about the the proposed Power Surge. Keep up the good work gang. I am getting more and more pumped about Mod 9 with every tidbit you release. :)

HeavenlyCloud
02-06-2009, 08:25 PM
Not bad.

Borror0
02-06-2009, 08:25 PM
Angelus clearly thinks the problem is that all dps spells are basically almost never worth casting, with the rare exception of things firewall will do double damage to (because fw is persistant, primarily).
I know that, but given the current mob HP, they seem to be in an impasse.

As I see it:

Lower current caster DPS.
Lower current mob HP.
Add at-will abilities.

But, perhaps I'm missing something.

ChaelaAnne
02-06-2009, 08:27 PM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.

Bab 5 anyone?

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 08:28 PM
I know that, but given the current mob HP, they seem to be in an impasse.

As I see it:

DELETE
Lower current mob HP.
Add at-will abilities.

But, perhaps I'm missing something.

Fixed that for you

Borror0
02-06-2009, 08:29 PM
Mobs have 1,000,000 or so hit pints... so yeah lets make the casters able to do less damage. sweet. good idea Bor...
I forgot to mention that this would be followed by HP nerfing, in postM6 quests.

Kawiki
02-06-2009, 08:30 PM
My Official take: meh

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 08:30 PM
Problem: Damage is not worthwhile
Proposal: Reduce damage
Conclusion: Damage is even less worthwhile

rofl. That was hard...

Borror0
02-06-2009, 08:30 PM
Fixed that for you
Ever played M5?

Korvek
02-06-2009, 08:30 PM
But, perhaps I'm missing something.

Casters would fall even further behind melees in the DPS department, given that melees are getting an increase in DPS in Mod 9.

Edit: Technically, I do believe that casters should have less DPS than melees due to other benefits they receive (insta-death being one), but on raid bosses immune to those extras, it's pretty important to feel as though you're contributing.

Borror0
02-06-2009, 08:35 PM
Casters would fall even further behind melees in the DPS department, given that melees are getting an increase in DPS in Mod 9.
Depends on how it's done. Remember M4 and M5? Mobs' HP was lower, and guess who won the DPS fight.

That's why there is a need to nerf the DPS as well.

Rindalathar
02-06-2009, 08:37 PM
With Every capstone I see... I get more and more disappointed with the Rogue one...

Please oh please change that one to something worthwhile

I can't express how much I agree with this statement.

Rogue Capstone = suxor

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 08:37 PM
Ever played M5?

Ever play a caster? Why don't we nerf the mob hit points and then move on from there. Even with the meta changes in M5 casters lag behind melee to the point of being almost obsolete in a lot of situations. If you lower mob hp to be in line with pre-change metas then you would have to also nerf melee's dps. The result would be an endless nerf spiral that would take WAY too much time and effort. lowering mob hp alone or reducing some of the blanket immunities is all that is needed

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 08:39 PM
That's why there is a need to nerf the DPS as well.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


Yes we MUST nerf melee dps because it is SO USEFUL at present endgame that's why no one allows W/P users in a party.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 08:40 PM
I forgot to mention that this would be followed by HP nerfing, in postM6 quests.
The problem isn't that hitpoints are too high; it's that stat damage / instakill is too strong.

Borror0
02-06-2009, 08:42 PM
Even with the meta changes in M5 casters lag behind melee to the point of being almost obsolete in a lot of situations.
That is only the case since M6. During M4 and M5, your statement would have made no sense at all. You would have been mocked and ridiculed.

This changed with the incredibly insane HP of M6.

Borror0
02-06-2009, 08:44 PM
The problem isn't that hitpoints are too high; it's that stat damage / instakill is too strong.
That's entirely true, but how do you address these problems?

Yes we MUST nerf melee dps because it is SO USEFUL at present endgame that's why no one allows W/P users in a party.
I was referring to caster DPS. Never did I mention touching melee DPS.

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 08:44 PM
That is only the case since M6. During M4 and M5, your statement would have made no sense at all. You would have been mocked and ridiculed.

This changed with the incredibly insane HP of M6.

... well then its a good thing we live in a universe that experiences time in a linear fashion then isn't it? It is not M4 or M5 right now... Not sure if you get that. It's ok let it sink in... I'll wait.

Borror0
02-06-2009, 08:46 PM
... well then its a good thing we live in a universe that experiences time in a linear fashion then isn't it? It is not M4 or M5 right now... Not sure if you get that. It's ok let it sink in... I'll wait.
Explain me what changed since M6 to move the balance toward melee DPS. Don't say Green Steel, or I'll laugh.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 08:46 PM
Casters would fall even further behind melees in the DPS department, given that melees are getting an increase in DPS in Mod 9.
Uh, casters are getting a more obvious DPS increase. +4 caster levels boosts many spells, and level 9 spells should boost them more.

Anyway: What is the DPS of a sorc?
It's hard to quantify, because a caster's DPS is subject to more variables than someone using weapons. Her spells have significant AOE, so the damage is multiplied by the number of enemies present. Spells like Wall of Fire do good DPS, as well as leaving the caster free to inflict other damage. And because so many of their attacks are based on saves or energy-type, there's big variability in terms of what spells will function on what mobs. (That's a weakness of sorcs, because unlike wizards they can't switch spells to make the elemental vulnerabilities of the current dungeon). And is the caster willing to sacrifice efficiency (DPM) for throughput (DPS)?

A good starting point is to look at spamming one spell repeatedly, assuming it's your only choice that's really effective against the current mobs. 1d6*lev reflex-half is a common standard for arcane AOE damage.

Delayed Blast Fireball.
Cast rate 0.3 per second
Damage: 5 die * 20 CL * 2.0 mult * 2.5 meta = 950
Low reflex: 5% chance of 50% damage, = 926
Targets: 2 mobs, = 1852
subtotal DPS: 1900 * 0.3 = 555
crits: 21% chance of 3x damage = 63% more DPS = 904
Total DPS: 904

That 904 DPS is achieved by using only about 10% of your time... the rest is waiting for the cooldown. If he casts another similar spell while waiting (Cone of Cold or Meteor Swarm), then the DPS close to doubles. Doubling the number of mobs in the AOE would also double it, as would making them fire-vulnerable.

The 904 DPS is still 452 if there's only one mob, and 248 if it has high Reflex. Compare that against a Tempest ranger, who does somewhat under 200 DPS against a favored enemy.

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 08:47 PM
I was referring to caster DPS. Never did I mention touching melee DPS.

Misunderstanding on my part, I apologize.




You know that lowering mob hp doesnt mean lowering the HP to pre mod 6 standards right? there IS a middle ground.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 08:48 PM
Explain me what changed since M6 to move the balance toward melee DPS. Don't say Green Steel, or I'll laugh.
Right, Green Steel didn't really apply to all melee characters until the rapiers and axes were introduced in M7.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 08:49 PM
That's entirely true, but how do you address these problems?
Preservation or Sheltered Vitality.

Borror0
02-06-2009, 08:51 PM
You know that lowering mob hp doesnt mean lowering the HP to pre mod 6 standards right? there IS a middle ground.
True, there could be a middle ground. Doesn't mean there is.

You could run into several problems:

Mobs lasting so long it's boring.
Spells becoming too powerful (CC and insta-kill, mostly)
Stat-damage

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 08:51 PM
Explain me what changed since M6 to move the balance toward melee DPS. Don't say Green Steel, or I'll laugh.

My comment was because you said I would be mocked if i had said that in mod 4 or 5... making no sense becasue I said it... TODAY. Anyway...


What changed was mob HP have inflated at a disproportionate rate to the DPS casters (or melee for that matter, stat damage is the only factor they have) can achieve. This has led to a point where you have to have the unlimited sustained dps of melee or the stat damage effects of melee to effectively clear mobs from the map.

If you tell me that the mob inflation of hp is directly proportionate to caster dps increases with improved metas i will laugh.

Borror0
02-06-2009, 08:53 PM
Preservation
Preservation?

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 08:58 PM
Preservation?
A percentage reduction to incoming stat damage. It does not function like Fortification, which is 25%, 75%, 100% (total blocking is a bad design). Instead it'd be closer to 25%, 63%, 82%.

Tap4black
02-06-2009, 09:01 PM
WOW! :rolleyes:

Next to the Rogue Capstone, this is definately the worst I've seen so far.

Here's an idea Turbine Devs, how about you take a step back and realize that DDO Sorcerers are not all DPS casters. Due to idiotic HP and moronic blanket immunities you have given most end game mobs, quite a number of us have elected to follow other schools of arcane casting. You do realize that there are more schools of magic that a Sorcerer can follow besides Evocation do you not??????.........

Maybe some of us prefer to not be a FW/DBF/Polar Ray spam casting outta mana begging for DV's drain on the party caster and prefer to actually think (Yes, I know we also look good but some of actually have a brain and like to use it in quest).

If you are going to move forward with this garbage as printed, at least give us the ability to spend our AP's on the Wiz Capstone so we can at least get SOME use out of being a pure class capped toon.

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 09:02 PM
True, there could be a middle ground. Doesn't mean there is.

You could run into several problems:

Mobs lasting so long it's boring.How would lowering their hp make them last longer than now?
Spells becoming too powerful (CC and insta-kill, mostly)lowering mob hp would have almost no effect on insta kill and most CC... this statement is absurd.
Stat-damagestat damage what? We are discussing changes made to MOBS start another thread for fixing stat damage. nothing you can do to a mob short of making it immune or having it self buff some form of protection will solve the stat damage problem, EXCEPT lowering the HP of the mobs so that the time to dps it with spells and non-stat weapons is much closer to the stat damage time.


And saying things like "there could be a middle ground, but doesn't mean there is"
is a little more than annoying. There are vary very few things that cannot be resolved with a compromise you know. Just because mobs USED to be at one level of HP and now are at ANOTHER level does not in any way whatsoever even come CLOSE to implying that those are the only two reasonable ranges for them to exist in.

In fact, it implies that BOTH of those extremes are not suitable seeing as they had too few then, and too many now, basic intelligence wold lead you to conclude that somewhere in the middle lies the solution...

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 09:05 PM
stat damage what? We are discussing changes made to MOBS start another thread for fixing stat damage.
Stat damage is completely relevant.

Aside from instakill / fts (which can be countered by deathward + fortitude), stat damage is the whole reason hitpoint damage isn't worthwhile. Eladrin mentioned that this capstone seems weak because it's unimportant for sorcs to go for DPS, but he is trying to change things so DPS matters.

Nerfing stat damage would be an obvious way to make that change.

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 09:06 PM
WOW! :rolleyes:
Here's an idea Turbine Devs, how about you take a step back and realize that DDO Sorcerers are not all DPS casters. .


we decided to make the first Sorcerer capstone one that would be appealing to those damage-oriented characters..

Everything you need to know to kill your tantrum is in red lol.

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 09:10 PM
Stat damage is completely relevant.

Aside from instakill / fts (which can be countered by deathward + fortitude), stat damage is the whole reason hitpoint damage isn't worthwhile. Eladrin mentioned that this capstone seems weak because it's unimportant for sorcs to go for DPS, but he is trying to change things so DPS matters.

Nerfing stat damage would be an obvious way to make that change.

I agree that nerfing stat damage in some fashion is needed. However, it is not even close to the only problem. If you could kill a mob in only a LITTLE more time with dps then it wouldn't really matter. The problem is that it takes ALOT more time to kill a mob with dps. I think it is too long, you may disagree and that is fine. I do not think that simply nerfing stat damage would solve the problem. DPS casters and melee would still be overwhelmed with the grossly inflated mob hp, only then there would be no alternative.

Yshkabibble
02-06-2009, 09:15 PM
I will echo most comments. Next to rogues this is the worst. Not only is it not particularly powerful, but it is also not particularly interesting. I would have to agree that this one ranks near the bottom of the list (just above the rogue).

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 09:17 PM
I will echo most comments. Next to rogues this is the worst. Not only is it not particularly powerful, but it is also not particularly interesting. I would have to agree that this one ranks near the bottom of the list (just above the rogue).

I don't think you can judge the worth of this until you know what changes E has planned to make straight DPS more viable.


IDK... I dont hate this capstone I think it's pretty cool. Guess it's just me lol.


And hey, it's not like they haven't listened to us about other capstones right? pally one got changed. Give it a fair shake.

Xaxx
02-06-2009, 09:27 PM
Depends on how it's done. Remember M4 and M5? Mobs' HP was lower, and guess who won the DPS fight.

That's why there is a need to nerf the DPS as well.


LOL LOOOOOOOOOL

you wish to compare mod 4 and 5 mele weapons with mod 6 and beyond.. the shroud changed mele dps capability by leaps and bounds...

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 09:31 PM
LOL LOOOOOOOOOL

you wish to compare mod 4 and 5 mele weapons with mod 6 and beyond.. the shroud changed mele dps capability by leaps and bounds...

He is gonna laugh at you now.

Pwesiela
02-06-2009, 09:35 PM
Well, I'm going to make the plug that I've been making for the last who knows how long.

By the looks of it, we're never going to see anything that boosts the spell caster's ability in any school of magic. Instead we're going to focus on dps, dps, and hey! dps!

Fabulous. I have 3 spells this will apply to.

C'mon turbine. We ever going to see anything for the necromancers, the enchanters, the illusionists, the evokers? Ever?

:mad:

Pwesiela
02-06-2009, 09:37 PM
Everything you need to know to kill your tantrum is in red lol.

Because we all know that the other capstones are going to come out within weeks of the first ones.

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 09:40 PM
Because we all know that the other capstones are going to come out within weeks of the first ones.

well... they are on a budget so....

gfunk
02-06-2009, 09:44 PM
noooooo.... I dont want to roll a wizi!

Oh well, 1 human wizi coming up. hmm, maybe their intent was to make us sorcerer players want to create a new alt...

Oreg
02-06-2009, 09:56 PM
Didn't read past the first page but I am underwhelmed with this one. I was really excited for my sorc after reading the wizard capstone and even if +2 cha wasn't under consideration, surely something better than this can be found?

OH and "Power Surge" to me means "activate this ability and for the next 20 seconds you don't expend spell points on your casts" useable x times per rest . Or for the next xx seconds you boost your spell points by 400 by digging deep like a stud.

The word "surge" in no way is reflective of a static increase in base damage for a few spells.

vtecfiend99
02-06-2009, 10:07 PM
boost your spell points by 400 by digging deep like a stud.

hahaha, that made me laugh so hard. Not that you want that effect, but the digging deep like a stud part rofl. classic man, classic lol:D:D:D

Noctus
02-06-2009, 11:01 PM
In the current endgame: meeeh.
About 1 in 20 spells i cast on my Sorcerer are damage spells. Many blanket immunities in combination with massive HP of monsters have mad going DPS-Casting a waste of SP in most cases.

So i hope that in mod 9 casting a direct-damage spell will be more worthwhile. In this case the Capstone might be worth taking.


So i cant decide if this Capstone is nice or not, yet.

Lorien_the_First_One
02-06-2009, 11:45 PM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.

And for DPS melee I hope. 1milllion HP monsters are not fun, at all.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 11:54 PM
The word "surge" in no way is reflective of a static increase in base damage for a few spells.
Thus my suggestion that you randomly know ahead of time your spell will crit, allowing you to aim it where needed.

bobbryan2
02-06-2009, 11:56 PM
First and foremost...

In Mod 5, casters ruled the roost. DPS was a valid way of taking down enemies. There, it's said.

I'm not going to say DPS is worthless now, because it's not. When I solo on my sorc (still one of the easiest classes to solo on), I mainly use firewalls, dancing spheres, solid/acid fogs. No... these tactics don't work in any quest... really... they only primarily work in Monastery, Ritual Sacrifice, Coal Chamber, and some parts of the Spider quest. But that's ok in general... that it's not a universal strategy.

The problem I have.. is that a little more damage in those situations isn't going to help. Firewall + dancing sphere or fog is WAY overkill for a normal group of creatures. Doing an extra 10% damage is ok and all... but it's not capstone worthy. You were going to kill everything in the room 50% of the way through the firewall... but now you kill them 45% of the way through the firewall. It doesn't save you any extra mana... it doesn't really save you any life (if you were taking constant damage... you wouldn't last too long).

So... this capstone doesn't really help the situations where I 'do' use damage.

And it obviously doesn't help in situations where I don't use damage.

You know where this will help? It'll help kill Sor'jek faster with my firewalls doing an extra 10%... but that'll be a low level encounter by the time we get this. It'll help do a bit more damage to harry (but I really only blow my spell points to make it go slightly faster (and lately I just save my mana for Mass protection from energy... how's that for a sorc's job)

Basically... something's going to have to drastically change between how we view quests now and how we view quests at lvl 20. The trick to soloing is using persistant AoE damage to achieve maximum efficiency. You have to make your spell points last from shrine to shrine... so single target, and single cast stuff might as well be taken off the bar.

The devs kinda screwed the pooch by making firewall THE persistant DoT spell... leaving every other DoT spell in its wake. It would probably be ok if things like incendiary cloud and acid fog were actually better... but they're not.

And since firewall does so much overkill.. the extra damage doesn't actually help. So even for casters that use a lot of DPS still (me), this capstone still wouldn't do anything.

It'll be interesting to see how they make damage more interesting. They backed themselves into a corner with Mod 5... and giving casters so much damage potential... but then they made it even worse in Mod 6 by giving melees SOoOOOOOOO much damage over time.

When a ranger can give sustained 200 DPS.. and a caster struggles to double that with normal spells (and has a very limited pool) it means casters are hosed on any high HP creatures.

Eternity25
02-06-2009, 11:57 PM
WOW! :rolleyes:

Next to the Rogue Capstone, this is definately the worst I've seen so far.

Here's an idea Turbine Devs, how about you take a step back and realize that DDO Sorcerers are not all DPS casters. Due to idiotic HP and moronic blanket immunities you have given most end game mobs, quite a number of us have elected to follow other schools of arcane casting. You do realize that there are more schools of magic that a Sorcerer can follow besides Evocation do you not??????.........

Maybe some of us prefer to not be a FW/DBF/Polar Ray spam casting outta mana begging for DV's drain on the party caster and prefer to actually think (Yes, I know we also look good but some of actually have a brain and like to use it in quest).

If you are going to move forward with this garbage as printed, at least give us the ability to spend our AP's on the Wiz Capstone so we can at least get SOME use out of being a pure class capped toon.

The devs already said that there won't just be one captone indefinitely. They will add more capstones for each class sometime in the future. It is possible one might be aimed toward spell dc or something of that sort. It is possible a future capstone might contain +2 cha and something else with it. The current capstone is a really nice capstone. Having more spell damage and a greater spell crit chance/spell crit multipleir will definitely help when soloing quests between lvl 12-16. When spells do more damage, it takes less spells to take down mobs. The less spells used will mean more mana to use against other mobs. The extra damage will help make mana usage more efficent.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2009, 11:58 PM
will definitely help when soloing quests between lvl 12-16
I'm afraid you need to review the concept of a "capstone".

Eternity25
02-06-2009, 11:59 PM
I'm afraid you need to review the concept of a "capstone".

I know you only get to take it at lvl 20 but it still will help when a lvl 20 goes back to solo old content.

Tanka
02-07-2009, 12:12 AM
I know you only get to take it at lvl 20 but it still will help when a lvl 20 goes back to solo old content.
What's the point, other than potentially loot runs for specific named items (which you generally want to go in a full party with anyway to expedite completion)?

Angelus_dead
02-07-2009, 12:25 AM
You know where this will help? It'll help kill Sor'jek faster with my firewalls doing an extra 10%... but that'll be a low level encounter by the time we get this. It'll help do a bit more damage to harry (but I really only blow my spell points to make it go slightly faster (and lately I just save my mana for Mass protection from energy... how's that for a sorc's job)
By my estimation, a sorc20 with all current (non-Abbot) gear and announced enhancements would need 7458 spellpoints to kill Arraetrikos with Polar Ray.

If we figure a sorc20 has 3000 sp, then three of them would kill him early in the 3rd round. (If someone specs for AA + AF it'll be both faster and more efficient. Other spells would increase speed but mostly reduce efficiency)

Eternity25
02-07-2009, 12:28 AM
What does AA stand for. AF must stand for Acid Fog.

Angelus_dead
02-07-2009, 12:28 AM
I know you only get to take it at lvl 20 but it still will help when a lvl 20 goes back to solo old content.
Barely. The only bit that really helps is the +3% crit chance. A damage boost on the other spells is unlikely to ever matter, because the difference between 850 and 930 damage is unlikely to change the number of spells it'll take to kill a monster. (Only a 10% chance that a mob with random starting hitpoints under a few thousand will die faster when you've got +10% damage)

Angelus_dead
02-07-2009, 12:30 AM
What does AA stand for. AF must stand for Acid Fog.
Acid Arrow. Normally AA and AF have trouble exceeding his resistance, but with the sorc's 21% crit chance, it'll likely do some real damage, and for very little mana. (The true cost is in the APs you invest in acid)

bobbryan2
02-07-2009, 12:34 AM
I know you only get to take it at lvl 20 but it still will help when a lvl 20 goes back to solo old content.

Lvl 16 sorcs can already do that. With 500 spell points more and more damage from spells... it'll be easier. You don't need a capstone to do lvl 12 quests.

bobbryan2
02-07-2009, 12:37 AM
By my estimation, a sorc20 with all current (non-Abbot) gear and announced enhancements would need 7458 spellpoints to kill Arraetrikos with Polar Ray.

If we figure a sorc20 has 3000 sp, then three of them would kill him early in the 3rd round. (If someone specs for AA + AF it'll be both faster and more efficient. Other spells would increase speed but mostly reduce efficiency)

So by your estimation... 3 sorcerers right now could kill harry at the beginning of the third round with no melee help?

6 sorcerers could kill him in a round and a half with half their mana left?

If that's true... how do you account for the fact that sorcs aren't more needed in the Shroud? I'm not saying the math doesn't work out... But if my sorc could blow his load and account for 1/3 of the damage to Harry... I think it would be a bit more obvious.

Angelus_dead
02-07-2009, 12:40 AM
By my estimation, a sorc20 with all current (non-Abbot) gear and announced enhancements would need 7458 spellpoints to kill Arraetrikos with Polar Ray.
I tried to use the Staff of the Petitioner, but that displaced the Scepter of Superior Ice Lore. And since a Dragontouched Vestament is used for Superior Glaciation VIII, I couldn't get Greater Arcane Lore either. The best I could find for Lore outside the hand/body slots was goggles of Ice Lore, which isn't enough.

Eternity25
02-07-2009, 12:40 AM
My sorc can solo lvl 14 quests without any trouble. Only was trying to say that it would make soloing for a sorc easier. Especially a sorc trying to solo certain sides of Litany of the Dead and Inferno.

Angelus_dead
02-07-2009, 12:51 AM
So by your estimation... 3 sorcerers right now could kill harry at the beginning of the third round with no melee help?
That's not what I was doing. I was basing it on sorc20 with the capstone. Just advancing 4 levels gives you +95 damage per Polar Ray, and then capstone adds 10% and more from crits.

But also I may have had a typo increasing the anti-Arraetrikos DPS greatly, so it may be longer than I guessed, and my knowledge of Arraetriko's hitpoints is vague anyhow. By multiplying my own DPS (150) times the other melees (10) and the time to defeat him (100 sec) I came to 150,000 hp.

Since Eladrin is reading the thread, maybe he'll tell us how close that is.


If that's true... how do you account for the fact that sorcs aren't more needed in the Shroud? I'm not saying the math doesn't work out... But if my sorc could blow his load and account for 1/3 of the damage to Harry... I think it would be a bit more obvious.
Aside from inaccuracies and level differences, the example sorcs had Glacial Assault gloves, bracers, and robes. Who really has that?

It'll take over 200 seconds to spend 2500 sp on Polar Ray, by which time he's dead anyhow. (Casting other spells during the Polar Ray cooldown increases DPS throughput at the cost of mana efficiency)

bobbryan2
02-07-2009, 12:54 AM
My sorc can solo lvl 14 quests without any trouble. Only was trying to say that it would make soloing for a sorc easier. Especially a sorc trying to solo certain sides of Litany of the Dead and Inferno.

But lvl 20 sorcs don't need a capstone that makes soloing quests 5 levels under them easier.... when they were able to do it 5 levels before easily enough.

Junts
02-07-2009, 01:02 AM
So by your estimation... 3 sorcerers right now could kill harry at the beginning of the third round with no melee help?

6 sorcerers could kill him in a round and a half with half their mana left?

If that's true... how do you account for the fact that sorcs aren't more needed in the Shroud? I'm not saying the math doesn't work out... But if my sorc could blow his load and account for 1/3 of the damage to Harry... I think it would be a bit more obvious.



a big part of this is that sorcerors right now are often doing 1/3 the damage they can do at 20, because most of them don't have the glacial set, much less the triple glacial set, so they are giving away massive amounts of glaciation damage (getting 280ish a polar ray), if they were dumping 560ish a ray (which they would with sup glaciation), with 1k crits, you would notice having two of them spam polar ray at him in terms of speed.

Delt
02-07-2009, 01:08 AM
I briefly scanned this thread (like two pages) and was amazed to see people actually complaining about this capstone...? Are you ******* kidding me? This is great for a first sorc capstone, pretty powerful for endgame DPS (assuming they address HP balance mod 9+) and different from the wizzie capstone.

This is everything I wanted the sorc capstone to be - you complainers are insane... people go nuts for tempest and stwf, this is basically the caster equivilent but better.

bobbryan2
02-07-2009, 01:09 AM
a big part of this is that sorcerors right now are often doing 1/3 the damage they can do at 20, because most of them don't have the glacial set, much less the triple glacial set, so they are giving away massive amounts of glaciation damage (getting 280ish a polar ray), if they were dumping 560ish a ray (which they would with sup glaciation), with 1k crits, you would notice having two of them spam polar ray at him in terms of speed.

I have potency VIII... it's not optimal... but it's a 30% hit... I don't think another 30% would double my polar ray damage from 280 from 560...

Just saying...

bobbryan2
02-07-2009, 01:11 AM
I briefly scanned this thread (like two pages) and was amazed to see people actually complaining about this capstone...? Are you ******* kidding me? This is great for a first sorc capstone, pretty powerful for endgame DPS (assuming they address HP balance mod 9+) and different from the wizzie capstone.

This is everything I wanted the sorc capstone to be - you complainers are insane... people go nuts for tempest and stwf, this is basically the caster equivilent but better.

Only because this capstone is worthless for all content we've gotten for a year now.

If that changes... awesome... but we can only analyze based on what we know.

flash145
02-07-2009, 01:21 AM
If anyone would take the time, you could search thru past posts and realize that Borror0 only posts to nerf something. His one solution to all the games problems is to nerf it if its even SLIGHTLY better then his S&B toon from mod1.

Monk AC = Nerf
Dwarf AC = Nerf
Dwarf Hp = Nerf
Ranger DPS = Nerf

If you don't believe go look. He crys if anything is even slightly better then plain S&B. I went ahead and placed all his posts on squelch just so it wouldnt clutter my enjoyment of the forums.

For the capstone, I have to say that the devs missed the bullseye but got the red outer ring on this. Now i'll preface that by saying maybe Eladrin has something up his sleave for mod9. But seriously, do you really think they can afford the time or cost to go back and recode every monster for less hp? I hope that this means that less mobs will have blanket immunities to elemental dps.

Yes some casters use DPS spells. Personally, I have scorchingray/fireball/lightning/firewall/polar ray. And all these are very situational. They can help on dmging raid bosses but, for the most part sorcs dps is secondary. However, you are all forgetting that raids are only a small percent of the actual stuff we can do. There are many places where sorcs can still do massive dps on an end boss who isnt a raid boss.

So while I don't think this capstone captures the essence of sorcerers being the embodiment of wild magic. Its nowhere near as useless as rogure capstone or cleric capstone. Both need serious rethinks by devs before releasing.

Oh and here is a question, if capstones are given at lvl 20 and devs add new capstones for classes later on (as has been implied), does this mean players will be able to "refeat" capstones? IS capstones being treated like feats? And does it effect the selection of classes who get feats at lvl 20?

Korvek
02-07-2009, 01:25 AM
Oh and here is a question, if capstones are given at lvl 20 and devs add new capstones for classes later on (as has been implied), does this mean players will be able to "refeat" capstones? IS capstones being treated like feats? And does it effect the selection of classes who get feats at lvl 20?

Capstones are enhancements, so I would imagine you would just need to respec your enhancements to get a different Capstone.

Angelus_dead
02-07-2009, 01:25 AM
I have potency VIII... it's not optimal... but it's a 30% hit... I don't think another 30% would double my polar ray damage from 280 from 560...
Yep, let's see.
Sorc16 with Ring of Thelis, Scepter of Superior Ice Lore, Glacier Gloves + Bracers + Robe.
Polar Ray damage = 5 die * 16 level * (1 + 0.4 enhance + 0.5 item) * (1 + 1 max + 0.5 emp) = 5 * 16 * 1.9 * 2.5 = 380 normal, or 950 crit.

Resist 30 on the boss means 350 normal or 920 crit. With an 18% crit chance, that's 452 per ray.

Each ray takes nearly 5.5 seconds to cast (most of that time is waiting on cooldown). 452 damage per 5.5 sec is 82 DPS, or just under half a Tempest ranger. Of course, if you have something besides Polar Ray that adds into the DPS without interference besides burning mana. By yourself, it would take 30 minutes of zapping to kill 150k hp.

For a sorc20, he has 500 on a normal ray or 1500 crit. A 21% crit rate means 680 average. That's 123 DPS, approaching a ranger, but still requiring 20 minutes to kill the boss by yourself. If you could somehow learn two Polar Rays in different level 8 slots, you'd have 246 DPS, beating most melee.

Junts
02-07-2009, 01:25 AM
I have potency VIII... it's not optimal... but it's a 30% hit... I don't think another 30% would double my polar ray damage from 280 from 560...

Just saying...

My sorc's polar ray does 240-260 damage w/ no potency or glaciation 8 whatsoever (he has all 4 tiers of elemental mastery, however)

+50% should bring that to 360-390ish

going from 16d6 to 20d6 will add another quarter of the -base- damage (eg, 480-620ish)
the last +10% from this enhancement should add another 10% (roughly 560-650ish)

I think a_d and I both did the multiplicative damage stacking slightly wrong, but a polar ray from these guys should do roughly 600 damage on average (and if they are fully specced for ice, 21% would crit for 1800 damage!)

such polar rays cost 45 + 15 + 25 - (your max/empower spell cost reductors) assuming maximize2, glacier, empower 1 and thelis, we have a total reduction of 14 sp - 71/cast

every 5 casts should average 5400 damage per 355 sp.

20 of each cast doesnt get through his resistance, so its actually 5300 per 5; that would mean 29 repetitions (145 casts) to get through 150k hp = 145 * 71 = 9600ish sp, a bit higher than a_d's estimate, but I find it believable that 4 sorcerors fully specced this way could do it on normal.

Considering they're doing 2.5x the damage for the same sp, you can start to get an idea why sorcerors as they are aren't such a big deal (assuming 15% crits for 2.25x damage, your normal m8 sorceror is only doing an average of about 320 damage per polar ray; the crit differences and base damage differences mean the fully specced m9 sorceror is doing around 3x that per cast on average; or, another way of looking at that, being that if you had 12 sorcs who all spammed polar ray, how long would it take them to take down the pitfiend?

we know the answer to that is...well, what was the last all-sorc shroud like? also considering some of them died, i bet the total sp cost is roughly equal to 'all the sp of 12 sorcs', which is about 3x what 'all the sp of 4 sorcs' is in m9.

The increased base damage of polar ray (which goes all the way up to 25d6 at 25) is the big factor here, not this enhancement; but the crit changes make a big impact, too; spell crit lines add a lot to dps if you are casting spells repetitively.

secondchance
02-07-2009, 01:25 AM
Wizards may be the masters of metamagic, but the blood of Sorcerers runs filled with power. While the Elemental Savant lines aren't in Module 9, we decided to make the first Sorcerer capstone one that would be appealing to those damage-oriented characters.

Sorcerer Power Surge
Prereqs: Sorcerer Level 20
Benefit: All of your damage dealing spells deal 10% more damage, have their critical chance increased by 3%, and their critical multipliers increased by an additional 0.25.

Obviously, this stacks with all other similar effects, whether they be Potency, Arcane Lore, or the various damage enhancing enhancement lines.

As with the other capstones, subject to change before it goes live.

Edit: EYE KEN SPEL.'

awesome awesome awesome


We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.

awesome awesome awesome....I know you didn't say it but I read "lower mobs hp" in that at least I think your looking into that which is great news

flash145
02-07-2009, 01:32 AM
NVM. looked at other classes. they did list ap cost. think eladrin forgot to post sorcs. HEY Eladrin, does this mean Sorc capstone is free?

bobbryan2
02-07-2009, 01:46 AM
My sorc's polar ray does 240-260 damage w/ no potency or glaciation 8 whatsoever (he has all 4 tiers of elemental mastery, however)

+50% should bring that to 360-390ish

.

250 damage with at 1.4... means base damage of 180 or so...

180 x 1.9 for sup glac VIII and full elemental mastery is 342. Take 30 points off that and you're hitting for about 310.

Even including another 25% base damage... still has you at 397.5...

not 500.

Wizzly_Bear
02-07-2009, 01:58 AM
im very disappointed that you continue to pigeon hole the classes turbine. as if sorcs werent already sought for damage now wizards will be flatly excluded. +1 dc is nothing compared to this damage boost.

Desteria
02-07-2009, 02:29 AM
HI I'd liek to make a suggestion what about dmaage orentated wizzard? since arcane classes are basical the same in most reguard why not make both arcane capstoens avable to both arcane classes?

Junts
02-07-2009, 02:51 AM
250 damage with at 1.4... means base damage of 180 or so...

180 x 1.9 for sup glac VIII and full elemental mastery is 342. Take 30 points off that and you're hitting for about 310.

Even including another 25% base damage... still has you at 397.5...

not 500.


remember its multiplicative; you're getting 180x1.4x1.5, not x1.9

Angelus_dead
02-07-2009, 03:09 AM
remember its multiplicative; you're getting 180x1.4x1.5, not x1.9
It's never been multiplicative before...

Potency and Elemental Mastery add together, just like Maximize and Empower do. (The easiest way to test this is with the Heal spell... no randomness to confuse you)

bobbryan2
02-07-2009, 03:12 AM
remember its multiplicative; you're getting 180x1.4x1.5, not x1.9

Nah, not multiplicative. Not that I've ever seen at any rate.

This capstone will basically just mean double damage for full enhancements + sup potency.

Borror0
02-07-2009, 03:59 AM
How would lowering their hp make them last longer than now?
Two things:

I didn't say longer than now.
There's a cap level increase, you know.


lowering mob hp would have almost no effect on insta kill and most CC... this statement is absurd.
I used the wrong verb. I meant being instead of becoming.

stat damage what? We are discussing changes made to MOBS start another thread for fixing stat damage.
Mobs' HP could be so high that stat-damage still is way better than DPS.

At that point, you got a stackability problem, which is not cool.

In fact, it implies that BOTH of those extremes are not suitable seeing as they had too few then, and too many now, basic intelligence wold lead you to conclude that somewhere in the middle lies the solution...
Not so simplistic. If we were talking about one single encounter, and dismiss all the above points, you would be right and I would agree with you.

We are, however, talking about balancing a whole game. The more inflated the values are, the more unstable the system is. What is appropriate DPS in one fight may be totally overpowered in the other. What may be right at one level may be broken at another (ie broken progression).

Deathseeker
02-07-2009, 05:12 AM
HI I'd liek to make a suggestion what about dmaage orentated wizzard? since arcane classes are basical the same in most reguard why not make both arcane capstoens avable to both arcane classes?

I agree with this. I dont see anything in either one that would make the other overpowered. Obviously Int would exchange for Cha. But making them available to both would just increase build options which is great for the game.

Oh, and it must be very easy to develop, which is great for the devs too!

Pyromaniac
02-07-2009, 07:22 AM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.

Good to hear, I'd love to have DPS casting as a viable option again.

Current issues with DPS casting in my opinion:
-Limited to Fire/Cold for ultimate DPS casting (including damage over time)
-No more stacking allowed on Firewall limits DPS, and devalues more than one arcane DPS caster in a party
-Best DPS spells are generally low level ones, cone of cold/polar ray are ok but that's about it from high level spells. Disintegrate does too little damage as a lot of mobs save regularly.
-Mobs have a gazillion hp, any caster could unload the whole mana bar and still not kill a red name. And melee can out DPS casters over time.
-Mobs have blanket immunities that don't make PnP sense

Basically a lot of the nerfs were on caster DPS, and the end result is raid groups that don't want more than 1 arcane caster because its not optimal. For a lot of raids, they'd be better off with no arcane casters at all. Too much help to melee, too much nerfing of arcanes - end game arcane casters are supposed to be uber and they're not.

Desteria
02-07-2009, 07:46 AM
I agree with this. I dont see anything in either one that would make the other overpowered. Obviously Int would exchange for Cha. But making them available to both would just increase build options which is great for the game.

Oh, and it must be very easy to develop, which is great for the devs too!

Actuyl i just ment make them both avlibe as is... If a sorc is a CC spec and doesnt realyl nuke then the meta magic discount is better then the 10% damage IF a wizard want to be a nuke spec then the sorc cap is better for him.... Now I would prolyl take the sorc cap any way as I like nuking red names harder, since thats abotu the only tiem ATM where i really care about any thing the parts of quest where you care about performace hitting 110% is the red/purple named fights basicaly any way.

Desteria
02-07-2009, 07:54 AM
Good to hear, I'd love to have DPS casting as a viable option again.

Current issues with DPS casting in my opinion:
-Limited to Fire/Cold for ultimate DPS casting (including damage over time)
-No more stacking allowed on Firewall limits DPS, and devalues more than one arcane DPS caster in a party
-Best DPS spells are generally low level ones, cone of cold/polar ray are ok but that's about it from high level spells. Disintegrate does too little damage as a lot of mobs save regularly.
-Mobs have a gazillion hp, any caster could unload the whole mana bar and still not kill a red name. And melee can out DPS casters over time.
-Mobs have blanket immunities that don't make PnP sense

Basically a lot of the nerfs were on caster DPS, and the end result is raid groups that don't want more than 1 arcane caster because its not optimal. For a lot of raids, they'd be better off with no arcane casters at all. Too much help to melee, too much nerfing of arcanes - end game arcane casters are supposed to be uber and they're not.


Ya it;s kinda funny how DDO went the oposite direction form PnP in tryign to balance more betwnene melle and arcane, melle in D&D always ROCKED at lowlevel the do in ddo as well, in PnP at high levels say 10+ arcanes started to weild insain power the power to change every encounter with but a single spell often if played smart, melles still had a place if they were smart as well though, it was the 2 workign togehter that made the game work, in DDO atm high level arcanes help yes but especaly for raid fights that are going to be LONG harry, sorjek etc arcane DPS is BURST yes they can BLOW there load cycle through 4 dirfent spells and put out crassy damage for about 30 second till they are out of SP but the mellee cna kepe ouot putting that damage forever, and thats why peopel want then for stuff liek shroud.

I don't have a solution i dotn have an easy fix, but it woudl be nice to see high level arcanes actuly be feared liek they are in PnP, and a HUGE part of that fear is the efects they can applie to stop or severy hamper BIG nasty badguys in ddo the big nasties are imune to everythign but DPS, and have soo mainy HP that arcane DPS is a joke you run dry makign only a dent.

Lorien_the_First_One
02-07-2009, 08:35 AM
Wizards may be the masters of metamagic, but the blood of Sorcerers runs filled with power. While the Elemental Savant lines aren't in Module 9, we decided to make the first Sorcerer capstone one that would be appealing to those damage-oriented characters.

Sorcerer Power Surge
Prereqs: Sorcerer Level 20
Benefit: All of your damage dealing spells deal 10% more damage, have their critical chance increased by 3%, and their critical multipliers increased by an additional 0.25.

Obviously, this stacks with all other similar effects, whether they be Potency, Arcane Lore, or the various damage enhancing enhancement lines.

As with the other capstones, subject to change before it goes live.

Edit: EYE KEN SPEL.

The description makes this sound like a passive bonus, but the name of the cap makes it sound like an activated and timed bonus (ie - surge being "for 60 seconds when activiated..." type bonus)

E can you confirm that this is a contineous passive bonus? (And if it is, consider a new cap name, it just seems odd)

Fennario
02-07-2009, 09:30 AM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.

Thank you! Please make this work.

In regular old DnD, high level casters are more powerful than melee. In the current state of DDO, its disappointing that my sorcerer is shunned from raid groups that already have 1 or 2 arcane in them.*

While its true that a sorcerer has the highest burst dps in the game, the inflated hitpoints of the mobs make it less than optimal.

I do like this capstone though. I have much more fun unleashing raw power than instant kill or stat kill. I'm just hoping that the play style becomes viable again.



* On a side note, the fastest shroud run I have ever been on consisted of mine and 3 other sorcerers. Players in the group who had voiced their doubts about it were surprised when they were looting their last chest less than 20 minutes later. Go figure.

vainangel
02-07-2009, 09:44 AM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.

I love that you said 'mundane'!

tinyelvis
02-07-2009, 02:25 PM
Yep, let's see.
Sorc16 with Ring of Thelis, Scepter of Superior Ice Lore, Glacier Gloves + Bracers + Robe.
Polar Ray damage = 5 die * 16 level * (1 + 0.4 enhance + 0.5 item) * (1 + 1 max + 0.5 emp) = 5 * 16 * 1.9 * 2.5 = 380 normal, or 950 crit.

Resist 30 on the boss means 350 normal or 920 crit. With an 18% crit chance, that's 452 per ray.

Each ray takes nearly 5.5 seconds to cast (most of that time is waiting on cooldown). 452 damage per 5.5 sec is 82 DPS, or just under half a Tempest ranger. Of course, if you have something besides Polar Ray that adds into the DPS without interference besides burning mana. By yourself, it would take 30 minutes of zapping to kill 150k hp.

For a sorc20, he has 500 on a normal ray or 1500 crit. A 21% crit rate means 680 average. That's 123 DPS, approaching a ranger, but still requiring 20 minutes to kill the boss by yourself. If you could somehow learn two Polar Rays in different level 8 slots, you'd have 246 DPS, beating most melee.This is a good first start to figuring out DPS but there are a lot of errors here. If only a ranger could put out as much DPS as a Sorc then some end bosses would be easy kills.

Lets look at attacking Harry with a fully spec'd Polar Ray with hopefully correct numbers. Please feel free to correct me if I make a mistake here.

Base DMG: 5.5*16 = 88
Enhance/Superior Pot (1.9) = 167
Max/Emp ( 2.5) = 418 <----- normal damage
(2.75) = 1149 <----- critical damage

Now let's conservatively say you crit every 6 hits (this is actually a couple percent less than 18%) Which means you hit for,

(5*418) + (1*1149) = 3239

With 30 damage resistance that is

3239 - (30*6) = 3059

You can fire a polar ray every 3 seconds (as opposed to 5.5 as stated). That means

3059/(3*6) = 170 DPS

This is very high. Now when you consider that also during this time you could fire 6 mm's. That may add an additional 100 to 150 dps ( I didnt feel like doing the calculations so just guessed here) for a total of

270 to 320 DPS,

This far exceeds your Rangers ability if I am not mistaken.

However, just as most arcane caster don't realize how much DPS they actually can produce or how to produce it. Even fewer realize that putting out max DPS and doing the most damage to an end boss don't always coincide. The typical arcane caster who intends to expend all of his mana will in almost every case do more damage with just "Maximize" by a couple 1000 pts than "Maximize and Empower". Poorly spec'd and poorly played arcane casters have lead to a mistaken belief that they don't have as good damaging power or as high DPS as melee toons. When in fact, the opposite should be the case. If this were not the case, you would see Shroud parties commonly with 4 sorcerers, many of these easily finishing Harry off in 1 round, never more than 2.

bobbryan2
02-07-2009, 08:23 PM
This is a good first start to figuring out DPS but there are a lot of errors here. If only a ranger could put out as much DPS as a Sorc then some end bosses would be easy kills.

Lets look at attacking Harry with a fully spec'd Polar Ray with hopefully correct numbers. Please feel free to correct me if I make a mistake here.

Base DMG: 5.5*16 = 88
Enhance/Superior Pot (1.9) = 167
Max/Emp ( 2.5) = 418 <----- normal damage
(2.75) = 1149 <----- critical damage

Now let's conservatively say you crit every 6 hits (this is actually a couple percent less than 18%) Which means you hit for,

(5*418) + (1*1149) = 3239

With 30 damage resistance that is

3239 - (30*6) = 3059

You can fire a polar ray every 3 seconds (as opposed to 5.5 as stated). That means

3059/(3*6) = 170 DPS

This is very high. Now when you consider that also during this time you could fire 6 mm's. That may add an additional 100 to 150 dps ( I didnt feel like doing the calculations so just guessed here) for a total of

270 to 320 DPS,

This far exceeds your Rangers ability if I am not mistaken.

However, just as most arcane caster don't realize how much DPS they actually can produce or how to produce it. Even fewer realize that putting out max DPS and doing the most damage to an end boss don't always coincide. The typical arcane caster who intends to expend all of his mana will in almost every case do more damage with just "Maximize" by a couple 1000 pts than "Maximize and Empower". Poorly spec'd and poorly played arcane casters have lead to a mistaken belief that they don't have as good damaging power or as high DPS as melee toons. When in fact, the opposite should be the case. If this were not the case, you would see Shroud parties commonly with 4 sorcerers, many of these easily finishing Harry off in 1 round, never more than 2.

Deals 1d6 per caster level (max 25d6) cold damage to an enemy with a ray of freezing ice and air

How do you get base damage of 5.5*16?

Atax
02-07-2009, 08:39 PM
How many sorcs actually spec for damage, I mean really..

oh, wait..

ALL OF US, AHAHA! BURN, BABY, BURN!

Angelus_dead
02-07-2009, 08:59 PM
How do you get base damage of 5.5*16?
Well, he was assuming the average result of a d6 in spell damage is 5.5. I thought it was 5.0, but it's certainly not 3.5 (which is the average d6 in weapon damage).

You can test this by casting some Disintegrates. You'll get damage equal to 10 die * 16 lev * 1.4 pot * 2.5 meta = 560 normally. If the average was 3.5 the result would be 392, or 616 if the average is 5.5. I guess a better test would be to buy a level 1 wand of Shocking Grasp and see if you can ever get it to output damage of 1, 2, or 3. It never will.

This is a large and intentional oversight from the DDO documentation: spellcasters use special biased dice for their damage, so they don't get disappointed with small numbers. As far as I can tell, the six-sided dice rolled for a DDO fireball are labelled "4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6", instead of the "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6" used by most of the world.

sephiroth1084
02-07-2009, 09:10 PM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.
That. That right there. Yes, THAT ^^^^^^^^^^^ makes me incredibly happy!

Heck, I think that's more satisfying to read than all of the PrE and capstone info. And not even because I've felt that put out by the crazy HP some things have; I like seeing the developers say that they are looking for new ways to make the game interesting and fun, and especially so when there has been a problem that crept up in an area of gameplay.

/applaud

sephiroth1084
02-07-2009, 09:12 PM
As for the capstone itself...WOW! That's pretty significant.

tinyelvis
02-07-2009, 09:30 PM
How do you get base damage 5.5?This is a really good question. For some reason damage is not equated to a die but rather seems to be last 2 possible results. That is either a 5 or 6 is rolled for damage (4 or 5 for magic missile). Anyway, I assume that 5s and 6s occur with the same distribution. Average damage is then 5.5. Perhaps only calculating one of 2 results really speeds up game play without really effecting too much the basic idea.

For Polar Ray 5.5 * 16 =88 is base expected damage.

Am I wrong here? I don't think I am but I may be...anyway let me know if you know different. However it is done, sorcerers really rock the DPS, especially when back to back casting of different DPS spells.

Note: I do not believe monster saves and spell resistant rolls are based on a roll of a 20 sided die. I think there are other non-traditional factors involved one of which is a non-linearity in character level and/or charisma. However, I have never taken the time to investigate this idea. At present, it is only a hunch.

Borror0
02-08-2009, 05:08 AM
Well, he was assuming the average result of a d6 in spell damage is 5.5. I thought it was 5.0, but it's certainly not 3.5 (which is the average d6 in weapon damage).

You can test this by casting some Disintegrates.
Dices for spells are not constant. DFB uses 1d4+2 and FB uses 1d3+3, for example.

At least, that's what testing has shown. It could always be off. Official words on that would be great.

BlackSteel
02-08-2009, 08:47 AM
3059/(3*6) = 170 DPS

This is very high. Now when you consider that also during this time you could fire 6 mm's. That may add an additional 100 to 150 dps ( I didnt feel like doing the calculations so just guessed here) for a total of

270 to 320 DPS,

.

If caster DPS isnt higher than this I'd be a sad panda. With party buffs you're typical high damage melee is in the high 200s as well. And next mod, a frenzied barb, not even using a choker, will be hitting 350ish.

Angelus_dead
02-08-2009, 01:02 PM
If caster DPS isnt higher than this I'd be a sad panda. With party buffs you're typical high damage melee is in the high 200s as well.
Lol, no they're not.

BlackSteel
02-08-2009, 04:36 PM
no for which? caster dps or high damage melees?

bigj1608
02-08-2009, 05:48 PM
Sorcerer Power Surge
Prereqs: Sorcerer Level 20
Benefit: All of your damage dealing spells deal 10% more damage, have their critical chance increased by 3%, and their critical multipliers increased by an additional 0.25.


Is this Capstone free? :P

BlackSteel
02-08-2009, 11:03 PM
hasted melees get what ~200 attacks a min for twf and around 130 for THF? Thats slightly more than 3 attacks a second, or 2 attacks for THF.

Heck my THF does with elemental dice and averaging glacing blows 100 minimum a hit, 2 of those a second; and times the critical power thats 270 DPS for the current mod. And thats not decked out either.

Angelus_dead
02-08-2009, 11:18 PM
hasted melees get what ~200 attacks a min for twf and around 130 for THF? Thats slightly more than 3 attacks a second, or 2 attacks for THF.

Heck my THF does with elemental dice and averaging glacing blows 100 minimum a hit, 2 of those a second; and times the critical power thats 270 DPS for the current mod. And thats not decked out either.
Lol, no you don't.

FluffyCalico
02-08-2009, 11:40 PM
2 problems

#1) Creatures have like 50d1000-This makes stat damagers best. Change it to 1000d50 to get stat damagers back in line
#2) Melee weapons are doing about 8 times the damage they should in PnP while spells are only doing about double. make spells base damage 4d6 per level instead of 1d6 to get spell damage back in line

transtemporal
02-08-2009, 11:47 PM
We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.

Thats good to know. I don't necessarily want to be able to nuke my way through everything like we used to do (which seemed to lead to the whole hp inflation thing in the first place), but it would be nice for dps to be a viable option again, both on casters AND melees.

Oh and the capstones pretty decent too. :)

Desteria
02-09-2009, 08:29 AM
Lol, no they're not.


If caster DPS isnt higher than this I'd be a sad panda. With party buffs you're typical high damage melee is in the high 200s as well. And next mod, a frenzied barb, not even using a choker, will be hitting 350ish.


hasted melees get what ~200 attacks a min for twf and around 130 for THF? Thats slightly more than 3 attacks a second, or 2 attacks for THF.

Heck my THF does with elemental dice and averaging glacing blows 100 minimum a hit, 2 of those a second; and times the critical power thats 270 DPS for the current mod. And thats not decked out either.


Lol, no you don't.

Well AD what is the attack rate for a TWF, Give me that And i'll caculte my rangers average DPS against harry, I just need a solid figure for the number of attacks bab 16 full TWF wiht kopeshes and I can run the numbers I know it's gona be up there.

Draccus
02-09-2009, 08:41 AM
With Every capstone I see... I get more and more disappointed with the Rogue one...

Please oh please change that one to something worthwhile

Agreed. The rogue capstone was laughable when launched and becomes more pathetic as each new class capstone is announced.

Dracolich
02-09-2009, 09:27 AM
I know that, but given the current mob HP, they seem to be in an impasse.

As I see it:

Lower current caster DPS.
Lower current mob HP.
Add at-will abilities.

But, perhaps I'm missing something.

Yeah your missing...

Fix the Khopesh, this will bring alot of melee DPS back to normal. Cant lower caster DPS without lowering melee builds as well.

jockobalbeno
02-09-2009, 09:31 AM
Great Cap El!!!!!

Murple McWind will be very happy with this!

Borror0
02-09-2009, 09:37 AM
Well AD what is the attack rate for a TWF
Let me go through Blacksteel's post and show you what is wrong.

hasted melees get what ~200 attacks a min for twf
Swing rate for TWF:

Non-hasted: 163 swings/minute
Hasted: 203 swings/minute*

In other words, that was an appropriate assumption.

around 130 for THF?
Swing rate for THF:

Non-hasted: 81 swings/minute
Hasted: 101 swings/minute

averaging glacing blows 100 minimum a hit
For glancing blows to do 100's a hit, he would need to have +250 base. If he meant that each hit was going for 100 when adding his glancing blows to his normal damage, he'd need to have over +70 base damage. Yeah, right, keep dreaming. Saying it is inaccurate or misinformed would be an understatement.

times the critical power thats 270 DPS for the current mod
Assuming HIS numbers, that's about a 1.35 critical power, which is true for a barbarian. Not any other THF, however.

Thing is, all his numbers are wayyy off.

Borror0
02-09-2009, 09:44 AM
Cant lower caster DPS without lowering melee builds as well.
Non-sequitur.

Aspenor
02-09-2009, 10:18 AM
So, Eladrin, when will we be seeing additional caster DPS metamagics?

Where's my split ray?

Twin spell?

Echo spell?

While we're at it, Arcane Thesis would be another decent feat.

Let's make wizards desireable!!!

Angelus_dead
02-09-2009, 10:52 AM
For glancing blows to do 100's a hit
He didn't say that. He wrote that when glancing blows are added to the average, each non-critical attack does more than 100 damage.

That's impossible, and even if it were happening, you couldn't take that number and then multiply it by critical power (because glances and elemental damage don't improve with crits)

Borror0
02-09-2009, 11:50 AM
He didn't say that. He wrote that when glancing blows are added to the average, each non-critical attack does more than 100 damage
That's what I said in the sentence just after the one you quoted...

BlackSteel
02-09-2009, 03:23 PM
He didn't say that. He wrote that when glancing blows are added to the average, each non-critical attack does more than 100 damage.

That's impossible, and even if it were happening, you couldn't take that number and then multiply it by critical power (because glances and elemental damage don't improve with crits)

fair enough, lets redo it then (thats what I get for trying to do it the quick way)

75 base x 2 for 150, x 1.35 crit = ~200 + 2 x 10 elemental damage + 33 GB = 255

and no self respecting THF should swing all the way thru each attack chain.

no matter how you slice it thats still mid-high 200s for a high damage melee. yes a caster can put out more, I was simply stating that the previous posters numbers seemed low for the sorc, mainly b/c he was only including the use of a single spell.

Strykersz
02-09-2009, 03:26 PM
He didn't say that. He wrote that when glancing blows are added to the average, each non-critical attack does more than 100 damage.

That's impossible, and even if it were happening, you couldn't take that number and then multiply it by critical power (because glances and elemental damage don't improve with crits)

Actually, 100dmg/swing non-crit for a raid buffed, max geared wf barb is about right if you ignore acid resist and average glancing blows out(30*.6(3out of 5 swings) might be a little low, but close enough). Certainly not the "average melee" he indicated but you'll also be a bit off the max dps of a twf.

Math

Multiplied by crits: 10.5(weapon) + 5(enhancement) + 22 (PA 6x enhance) + 8(bard) + 25 (str) + 1 (prayer) = 71.5

Non-multiple base: 7(holy) + 3.5(acid burst) = 10.5

BlackSteel
02-09-2009, 03:30 PM
That's impossible, and even if it were happening, you couldn't take that number and then multiply it by critical power (because glances and elemental damage don't improve with crits)

certainly not impossible, considering its possible to get +79 damage on a WF barb in the current content. tack on 3d6 for a greataxe, 10 more damage from elemental effects, divide GB's by either 1/2, 2/3, or 3/5 depending how you're moving), and could even get 8 points of sneak damage occasionally. And these numbers, even with most of them being short effects put you a good deal above 100 (closer to 130 a hit). So being above 100 most of the time is not that hard to do.

Heck next mod it will be possible for a barbarian to hit over 200 damage on a non-crit. That wont be the average (which is ~170-180), but it will be possible.

cypan41
02-10-2009, 01:10 AM
Of course this will do absolutely nothing for my spell pen/ necro spell spec'd Sorc. I'd much rather have a bonus to spell pen. Or at least a choice.

Gryphton
02-10-2009, 01:27 AM
I agree, I love the insta-kill sorcs. For those running around throwing instant kill spells this kinda blows. I know I know I know, end game content, it's all immune to insta deaths but now the DC'ss on my Flesh to Stone just went down a notch. I would love the choice. Think I might be re-doing my wizard after reading this one. So wizards and bards get a big up to their DC's but all sorcs get is a bit more damage output...

Borror0
02-10-2009, 02:34 AM
certainly not impossible, considering its possible to get +79 damage on a WF barb in the current content.
Breakdown. /wait

bobbryan2
02-10-2009, 02:49 AM
This is crazy anecdotal.... but I seem to remember hitting the upper 200's when I was calculating DPS of a 20th level Ranger against a favored enemy with every possible DPS buff in the game.

I was comparing it to the 20th level Paladin... and believe it or not, with the original capstone of 4d6, the Paladin won out by about 2-3 DPS against a chaotic evil outsider with Knights of the Chalice... both with Lightning strike weapons against lightning susceptible creatures.

I seem to remember my calcs being around 280-284 for both... again... I should probably look at it again.. they were both based around 3.8 attacks per second which may or may not be off.

That being said... That's a 'really' high DPS number. Can sorcs beat it currently? Sure.. but for very short bursts... the fact that melees can hit those sorts of DPS numbers sustained leaves sorc DPS to be a bit desired.

But that's mainly talking about things such as polar ray, cone of cold and the like... There's still nothing like putting down a firewall and being untouched while it does damage to the group... but then again... this capstone doesn't do much favor to those situations at all.

BlackSteel
02-10-2009, 09:04 AM
Breakdown. /wait

mind you I said up to +79, likelihood of all of it occurring at once is nonexistant, but reaching low 70s isnt that bad

60 STR = +37
22 PA
8 bard
5 weapon
1 LOTD
5 Boost
1 prayer
____________
+79
could take on heros companion too, but I honestly dont know anyone who carries it

additionally a multiclass barb in the current content could reach a higher number, either with fighter or ranger splash (but loses crit rage 2), a 11 barb/5 ranger could get up to a +86 damage modifier in current content.

Desteria
02-10-2009, 09:31 AM
Swing rate for TWF:

Non-hasted: 163 swings/minute
Hasted: 203 swings/minute*


IS this including tempest?
IF not add 10% to final DPS for tempest.
OK i'm assumign that 203 is both main and off hands lets play with some numbers...
My ranger on an AVERAGE shroud run, IE barb but not neccicarly WC etc, only counting single not dubble madestone, this is NOT max thsi is Avereage for my ranager, a well equiped human who DOSE NOT have humna versitility YET, it;s plnaed to come soon, and started with 16 str and bumped str, she has dule min2 kopeshes.


1d10+2d6holy+1force+8sneak50%(4average)+1d4slicing +6bard+5pa+1pray+12fe+12str.
Crit mutpilicable damage=5.5+6+5+12+1+12=41.5
Other damage7+1+4+2.5=14.5
Average hit main hand=56
OFF hand loses 6 pt's str = avearga hit 50
Average main hand crit =124.5+14.5=139
Avearge off hand crit =41.5-6=35.5x3=106.5+14.5=121
Over 202 swings ruffly 10 Nat 1's or misses, and ruffly 40 Crits half because of 50% fortification= 20 crits, 10 misses 172 normal hits all half and half
10 crits m = 1390
10 crits off = 1210
86 mian = 4816
86 off = 4300
Total = 11716
Div 60 = 195 DPS avearge shroud run against harry..
ruffly 203/60=3.38 swings per second

Haflings would add 13.5 DPS
Humen Boosted would add 16.9 DPS
Warchanter adds 6.8 DPS
second madstone adds 3.38 DPS very easy in a good runs since he dies in under 2 mins.

soo sayign 200 dps for a melle buffed basiacly forever is not unresnable, they key factor is they can purty much go on forever doing that, where as caster have a limited pool, IF you do haryr at 150k HP, the ranger above buffed up takes 12.8 mins to kill him as the solo DPS on him ... I think we had the sorc takign about 30 mins to cast enough polar rays, and they would run out of SP long before he dies....


Well that was fun playing with numbers note sure what it really menas btu hey it was fun.

ShadowDog
02-10-2009, 09:31 AM
With Every capstone I see... I get more and more disappointed with the Rogue one...

Please oh please change that one to something worthwhile

/signed

Borror0
02-10-2009, 09:40 AM
60 STR = +37
5 weapon
1 LOTD
5 Boost

:rolleyes:

That's a more acceptable breakdown:
18 base
+10 Rage
+6 Enhancement
+4 level up
+3 Tome
+2 Madstone Rage
+2 Rage (spell)
45 Str (+25 Str Mod)

So, in total, it's more like a 61 base.

Fennario
02-10-2009, 10:25 AM
I agree, I love the insta-kill sorcs. For those running around throwing instant kill spells this kinda blows. I know I know I know, end game content, it's all immune to insta deaths but now the DC'ss on my Flesh to Stone just went down a notch. I would love the choice. Think I might be re-doing my wizard after reading this one. So wizards and bards get a big up to their DC's but all sorcs get is a bit more damage output...

How do your dc's on flesh to stone go down a notch? Sorcs aren't losing anything with this capstone.

I would hardly call +1 to dc's a "big up" for wizards and bards.

Fennario
02-10-2009, 10:26 AM
could take on heros companion too, but I honestly dont know anyone who carries it



My halfling bard does. :D

Borror0
02-10-2009, 10:44 AM
How do your dc's on flesh to stone go down a notch? Sorcs aren't losing anything with this capstone.
I think that he is making the (logical) assumption that end game will be balanced for the new higher DC values.

Could be wrong, though.

Mindspat
02-10-2009, 01:10 PM
Anyway: What is the DPS of a sorc?
It's hard to quantify, because a caster's DPS is subject to more variables than someone using weapons. Her spells have significant AOE, so the damage is multiplied by the number of enemies present. Spells like Wall of Fire do good DPS, as well as leaving the caster free to inflict other damage. And because so many of their attacks are based on saves or energy-type, there's big variability in terms of what spells will function on what mobs. (That's a weakness of sorcs, because unlike wizards they can't switch spells to make the elemental vulnerabilities of the current dungeon). And is the caster willing to sacrifice efficiency (DPM) for throughput (DPS)?

AD, this is not directed specifically at you as much as it is the "caster dps" arguement.

So much of a caster's potential is inherantly dependant upon a Critcal that it completely deforms the accuracy of attemping to extrapolate circumstantial "DPS". And the casting of dmg spells compared to persistant dmg entirely breaks down due to the finite number of spell points. Where there might be a rating of 1000 for 1 sec it's possible you're "dps" is goig to be 0 for the next several minutes.

I would like to see the potential to land crits increased rather then base dmg. For instance, if a caster needs to nuke a boss they will be casting an ensemble of spells rather then one or two as they would when dealing with trash mobs. While destroying trash mobs might benefit from a base increase in spell damage it's the higher crit chance that's going to be applied to spamming dmg spells on a boss since there will be a higher probability of recieving criticals from the increased number of spells being cast on a single target.

Truth be told, we all love seeing that exceptionaly high damage number pop on our screen. It gives us a nice "Zing!" and we all know we've bragged about some of the dmg numbers we've seen. :D

BlackSteel
02-10-2009, 02:47 PM
nowhere did i say it was normal ;) I just said you could get up to.

normal on my pure barb is low 60s, and ~70 in spurts

my mutt barb is high 60s, and mid 70s in spurts, but no madstone boots on him yet

i'm hoping the next mod actually does make the abbott loot more attainable, would love to be able to ditch the bloodstone.

Borror0
02-10-2009, 03:04 PM
nowhere did i say it was normal ;) I just said you could get up to.
No. That's what you were trying to say.

You said "certainly not impossible, considering its possible to get +79 damage on a WF barb in the current content", in defense to A_d's rebuttal.

bobbryan2
02-10-2009, 03:09 PM
223 attacks per minute or so... Probably more if you break the attack chain or add in another attack for Tempest III.

That starts meaning that even adding 2 more damage for another FE at 20th adds almost 8 DPS alone.

I have no doubt that Rangers will be able to do sustained DPS above 200 at lvl 20.

Those kinds of numbers make me wish that Spell points regenned. :)

Thanimal
02-10-2009, 05:20 PM
This is a little off-topic, but I can't help trying to put some number in here because I've been working on them and nobody seems to be believing Blacksteel.

I think everyone except Blacksteel is under-estimating how much damage can already be done by a good melee-DPS build. So I'm gonna throw out some math and see where this takes me. This is for a Fighter 10/Ranger 6 Dwarf specked for DPS. At first, I'm trying to be "realistic," though I am granting a pair of sweet +++ Dwarven Axes. All feats and enhancements mentioned are from my actual build plan for Darrea. So hopefully no voodoo :). I am NOT claiming this the max possible by any stretch -- just an example of a DPS build.

EDIT: I forgot the Fighter's Weapon Specialization enhancement for another +1 on each hand. Added.
EDIT: Measured base weapon speed is slightly slower than I thought, even with moving. Updated accordingly.
EDIT: Forgot to include the "Blast" portion on natural 20s. Added.
EDIT: Forgot that Greensteel ups the base damage die to d12. Updated.
EDIT: ACTUALLY, it ups the base damage die to 2d8, which is a LOT more. Updated again.
EDIT: Wow that Greensteel is some broken: Triple positive actually means HOLY, burst, and blast or a 4d6 added on every hit (against evil guys). I was using 3d6. Changed. (If this keeps up, my optimistic 20-second burst rate is gonna hit 400 before I know it. :))

Base (meaning criticallable) damage
9: Greensteel Dwarven Axe
5: weapon enhancement
12: STR of 34 // 6 on off-hand
5: Power Attack
2: Ram's Might
2: Weapon Specialization
1: Weapon Spec Enhancement
2: Dwarven Enhancement
6: Bard Song (conservative: Warchanter would be 8)

Total Base:
44 // 38

Non-criticallable additional damage:
14: 4d6 from +++

ADDITIONAL damage on a critical
14: 4d6 Burst from +++
88: (2x the base damage - remember I'm talking additional) // 76 on off-hand

Total additional on crits:
102 // 90

Blast damage on natural 20s
14: 4d6

Total expected damage per swing if hit-on-2:
normal hits: 0.95 * (44+14) // 0.95 * (38+14)
additional from crits: 0.1 * 102 // 0.1 * 90
additional from blast: 0.05 * 14 // 0.05 * 14

Grand total per swing:
66 // 59.1

Then with proper interruption of the attack chain, the base has been measured at 87 per minute, or 1.45 animations per second. (Actually experimentation here is on-going. There may be a way to make it much faster and this build has Spring Attack, so moving while attacking has no downside.)

Next we add on Haste and Tempest:

1.45 * 1.25 * 1.1 = 1.99375 animations per second

And with gTWF and BAB 16 we have on and off-hand attacks on every animation, so rates are:

131.59 / 117.83 (rounded to 2 decimal places)

And the grand total is about 249 DPS. So, barring mistakes, that's a pretty fair estimate of "always on" DPS.

But next, let me chuck some more stuff in here:
+4 Favored Enemy (that's without enhancement)
+2 from Warchanter over normal Bard
+2 // +1 from Rage spell or clickie and Madstone Rage
1 non-criticallable force damage from ritual

Running my numbers in my spreadsheet, these bring me to about 288 DPS.

But wait! There's more! When we desperately need DPS, we of course flip on our Fighter Haste Boost, for a further 1.3 multiplier.

So optimistic peak DPS for a 20-second burst is about 374.

Are my inputs and/or calculations incorrect?

Angelus_dead
02-10-2009, 05:28 PM
Are my inputs and/or calculations incorrect?
They seem fine, except that they don't support Blacksteel's contentions, which are relating to a very different kind of character than you used.

Your result gets 220 for a TWF, which does not at all help his claim that THF is close to 300. (And if you were fighting a real boss, you wouldn't crit like that, reducing it to below 200)

Angelus_dead
02-10-2009, 05:30 PM
So much of a caster's potential is inherantly dependant upon a Critcal that it completely deforms the accuracy of attemping to extrapolate circumstantial "DPS".
That's the "overkill problem", which is well-understood and which is not meaningful when talking about bosses with over 20,000 hp.

Thanimal
02-10-2009, 05:54 PM
They seem fine, except that they don't support Blacksteel's contentions, which are relating to a very different kind of character than you used.

Your result gets 220 for a TWF, which does not at all help his claim that THF is close to 300. (And if you were fighting a real boss, you wouldn't crit like that, reducing it to below 200)

Ok, perhaps I misunderstood. Well anyway I hope my numbers are mildly useful. I already realized some minor things I forgot, and I'll edit it eventually. But nothing that really changes the order of magnitude.

Of course, I didn't assume any "crazy raid loot" STR enhancements, which possibly could cause non-trivial increases. But I'm clueless about that stuff.

BlackSteel
02-10-2009, 07:29 PM
They seem fine, except that they don't support Blacksteel's contentions, which are relating to a very different kind of character than you used.


used THF as an example since thats what I'm most familiar with, and its easier to calculate just one weapon over two. My original posts talked about high DPS melees, didnt specify either style in particular.


feel free to prove me wrong A_D that a WF THF barbarian isnt comparable DPS to a TWF version. Throw whatever buffs you'd like on either, just dont use the gimpy autoattack swings/minute. Anywhere from 120-135 is a more reasonable number.

tinyelvis
02-10-2009, 09:11 PM
And the grand total is 225 DPS. So, barring mistakes, that's a pretty fair estimate of "always on" DPS.

This was a good post. Easy to follow that made sense. However, keep in mind you point out that this is for
Total expected damage per swing if hit-on-2:

Now in that case a caster will usually have infinite DPS with a finger or other insta spell. I would like to see a write up like this for the fight against say Harry. Expected DPS there is surely lower.

bobbryan2
02-10-2009, 09:17 PM
This was a good post. Easy to follow that made sense. However, keep in mind you point out that this is for

Now in that case a caster will usually have infinite DPS with a finger or other insta spell. I would like to see a write up like this for the fight against say Harry. Expected DPS there is surely lower.

Why is expected DPS against harry lower?

The Harry fights are one of the few times where expected DPS and actual DPS numbers align closely. Everyone is there, can remain stationary, have raid buffs, etc.

BlackSteel
02-10-2009, 09:20 PM
fortification lowers DPS a bit

and for casters, spell selection on the fiend hurts as well, in addition to the SR and high saves. only so many spells there can be useful.

bobbryan2
02-10-2009, 09:23 PM
fortification lowers DPS a bit

and for casters, spell selection on the fiend hurts as well, in addition to the SR and high saves. only so many spells there can be useful.

Right Right... The fort does lower the crit power a tad. I'm so used to looking at Rangers, and it doesn't hurt Ranger DPS as much as Pally and Barb, and soon to be Fighter.

Thanimal
02-11-2009, 10:18 AM
Right Right... The fort does lower the crit power a tad. I'm so used to looking at Rangers, and it doesn't hurt Ranger DPS as much as Pally and Barb, and soon to be Fighter.

Does fortification also prevent the Burst and/or the Blast damage? Or does it just stop the multiplier on the base damage? I think it's the latter, but if someone can confirm or deny, I'll put in a note about DPS vs. 100% fortification. The particular build I'm using as an example isn't horribly nerfed by fortification, but it's certainly less DPS!

And what about AC? Does this boss everyone's talking about have some massive AC that means hit-on-2 is not assured? Extreme AC can favor caster DPS in a big way. Off-the-cuff, to-hit on my sample build seems to be: 16 bab + 12 str + 5 weapon + 2 Focus + 2 Dwarf enh + 4 GH + 6 Bard + 1 Haste - 2 dual - 5 PA = 41. (I do have oversize TWF, so no penalty there.) So if I haven't forgotten anything, then AC up to 43 is hit-on-2.

Desteria
02-13-2009, 04:08 AM
EDIT: Forgot that Greensteel ups the base damage die to d12. Updated.


ACtuly D10 weaposn go to 2d8 when die upped so GS dwarf axes do 2d8 base or 9 average....

Desteria
02-13-2009, 04:14 AM
Does fortification also prevent the Burst and/or the Blast damage? Or does it just stop the multiplier on the base damage? I think it's the latter, but if someone can confirm or deny, I'll put in a note about DPS vs. 100% fortification. The particular build I'm using as an example isn't horribly nerfed by fortification, but it's certainly less DPS!

And what about AC? Does this boss everyone's talking about have some massive AC that means hit-on-2 is not assured? Extreme AC can favor caster DPS in a big way. Off-the-cuff, to-hit on my sample build seems to be: 16 bab + 12 str + 5 weapon + 2 Focus + 2 Dwarf enh + 4 GH + 6 Bard + 1 Haste - 2 dual - 5 PA = 41. (I do have oversize TWF, so no penalty there.) So if I haven't forgotten anything, then AC up to 43 is hit-on-2.

Haryr on normal SHOULD be hit on a 2 will all attacks, on elite it;s possibel to start missing a little on your FIRST 2 swings on most melles, but should still be hitting on a very low number because of bard buffs etc.... once you get in to the +5/+10 attacks a DPS melle, ie built to HIT and do damage, shoudl be miss on a 2 purty much.

Thanimal
02-13-2009, 09:27 AM
Actually D10 weapons go to 2d8 when die upped so GS dwarf axes do 2d8 base or 9 average....

EDIT: Screenshot found: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1731020&postcount=23
Wow. That is generous! Updated my post. Increases are pretty noticeable with "always on" now climbing all the way to 238.

FluffyCalico
02-14-2009, 05:22 AM
So wizards get a boost to PK, Finger, charms, and CC. And sorcs get a 10% boost to DPS. IE noone wants you to DPS anything as a caster unless its wall of fire.

tinyelvis
02-14-2009, 03:18 PM
Haryr on normal SHOULD be hit on a 2 will all attacks

Why? Where is the analysis to back this up? What is Harry's AC? How do you know its not a 4, 6, or something else. If you hit on 4, for example, you will miss 3 in 20 swings. I don't believe you will even notice these misses. Why then do parties hit better when I debuff Harry? Why do folks scream for GH or bard songs? I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

There are 4 things I have learned about life. You're born, you pay taxes, you eventually die and melee'rs always greatly overstate their DPS.

Desteria
02-15-2009, 03:29 AM
Why? Where is the analysis to back this up? What is Harry's AC? How do you know its not a 4, 6, or something else. If you hit on 4, for example, you will miss 3 in 20 swings. I don't believe you will even notice these misses. Why then do parties hit better when I debuff Harry? Why do folks scream for GH or bard songs? I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

There are 4 things I have learned about life. You're born, you pay taxes, you eventually die and melee'rs always greatly overstate their DPS.

Well I asusmue standard buffing for harry and with standard buffing IE a none WC bard at least + pray+ rage+ haste yes all melle should easly hit him on a 2 on normal...
I belive his ac is around 38 on normal, my melees all hit that self buffed on a 2, some unbuffed compleatly, so an average melee with average buffs should be hitting that on 2 with out problems.

As fro a more indepth analisis over 400 shroud runs under my belt, holdign the record for shroud speed, (i was on annibelle in the khyber 16 min run), i consider that more then enough knolwage of the shroud, to know what should hit him.

As fro why partyies do better when you debuffhim well it will make him HIT lessunles sthey all have barb AC, and if you have soem gimptastic melee's maby they need then help, I'm soryr if i Assume competent melle when i say he should be hit on a 2 I'm infering any copetent melle should be hitting harry on a 2 in a normal shroud run with average buffs, as for the incopetent ones that have no business beign in shroud with there gimp ass buts, well they arn't worth discusign imo.

tinyelvis
02-15-2009, 11:24 AM
Here is the thing....... it is clear from your post that you don't know. What is surprising to me is that you claim 400 shroud runs and still have never bothered to really find out. A person can turn their TV on 400,000 times without having any idea how it works or why. Repeating something does not make you an expert. Perhaps you have developed knowledge and a feel for the thing, but I at least am convinced, you really don't know.

It may be true that Harry is easily hit, I certainly think so, but I can't help doubting your claims. Even disregarding that most of your comments are unreadable and disorganized (a fact that makes it hard for someone to take your comments serious), what real info do you bring to the discussion? Claiming that Harry is hit on a 2 because you say so is not too convincing. Add some credibility to your comments post a combat log.

I am not surprised to learn that with all the time you have spent playing, that most of your own toons are only marginally better than average. Since as you point out, they are only an average set of buffs from an average toon.

my melees all hit that self buffed on a 2, some unbuffed compleatly, so an average melee with average buffs should be hitting that on 2 with out problems.

tinyelvis
02-15-2009, 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by Thanimal

And what about AC? Does this boss everyone's talking about have some massive AC that means hit-on-2 is not assured? Extreme AC can favor caster DPS in a big way. Off-the-cuff, to-hit on my sample build seems to be: 16 bab + 12 str + 5 weapon + 2 Focus + 2 Dwarf enh + 4 GH + 6 Bard + 1 Haste - 2 dual - 5 PA = 41. (I do have oversize TWF, so no penalty there.) So if I haven't forgotten anything, then AC up to 43 is hit-on-2.
I may be mistaken but I don't believe that +4GH stacks with +6 Bard. If not, then you hit AC up to 39 on 2?

On normal, it has been widely claimed that Arraetrikos has a 41 AC, and as I suggested earlier spec'd like this you will hit him on a 3 or 4.

Desteria
02-16-2009, 03:13 AM
I am not surprised to learn that with all the time you have spent playing, that most of your own toons are only marginally better than average. Since as you point out, they are only an average set of buffs from an average toon.

Actully i was saying an avearge toon with average buffs should hti on a 2 since my toons hit on 2's with out half the buffs, I know my guys who all all Vod Goggles ALL have paired min2's, ALL have basicaly ALL raid loot they could possible want, except perfect DT armors, one has perfect the rest have a set of decent while working on the perfect, Still missign the odd titan belt but that just fres sup a slto fro a frivolis shroud item atm :)

I never had to bother to pin his AC down because frankly I never missed to make it a problem I have figured it out for soem of the mobs btu i forget what ti was because that was how long ago now, when was shroud first beaten? I was not on the firts run to beat it on khyber but i was there the next day is that liek a year ago now or something hell i forget what i ate for breakfast you expect me to rember the AC of a mob i never had a problem hitting in the first place still!


Avearge melle toon Avearge buffs as follows....

+16 bab(if not a full bAB class most have at leats oen pair of madestone boots by now, not liek reaver isent the most run raid EVER!)
+10 STR high BUT not top end
+5 main bard song
+2 competence song
+5 Weapon, (min2 or +3 trans richious or +1 GTR bain)
+1 haste
+1 rage spell (form teh str bonus)
+1 Prayer spell
+4 Destruction(lets face it between DT armor and the hound brest plate this is ALWAYS on the mobs, every oen of my melles has destruction capabilities on every attack if i want it with out useign crappy weapons, so any oen in any run with any of my guys has it i know about 80% of the people i run with also always have this capability it only take ONE of us on the raid to do this).
-5 Power attack
Thats
+40 from that, since I seam to rember ruffly 38 ac thats hit on a -2!

Everyone but the one character with Aggro gets +2 flanking to hit as well...

Fighter would have +2 mroe because of WF, that would counter TWF's-2.
Rangers would have FAvored enimy +x to hit to counter there -2 + rams might for possible more STR OR be dex based with EASLY higher +hit form dex sicne it;s much easyer to raise dex then STR.
Barbs woudl have a LOT more STR like at least 6 mroe points for +3 mroe to hit to counter higher PA penaltys, and twf penalties.
VoD goggels or OTHER sneak atakc bonus gives +5 or so to hit to all but the one guy that has aggro atm...
Haflings get +x tohit based on how much cunnign they have.
Rouges get a + to hit SA enchment? maby not sure my rouge is splash on a wizard.
Bard buffs were conservative in above buffing as was STR to reflect not all bards are amart enough to max there songs! and nto all are WC's...
Dwarfs can get +2 more with AP's
Drow can as well, Actuly +3 if they use a SS off hand and are pallys
Pallys can add +3 DF


+40 or MORE to hit is NOT an issue for any avearge melle in an average group for shroud theres some math for you....

I seam to reamber harry at 38 ac You said 41 BOTH are hit on a 2 OR LESS easly.

tinyelvis
02-16-2009, 11:29 AM
+40 or MORE to hit is NOT an issue for any avearge melle in an average group for shroud theres some math for you....

Though mineral II is probably not possessed by typical average characters, I do see your point. Just for further clarity, how often do you hit with BAB +16? In other words, considering animation, whats the typical multi-swing breakdown....(i.e. +16,+16,+11 repeat?)

Well done, thanks for the info.

Desteria
02-17-2009, 02:50 AM
Though mineral II is probably not possessed by typical average characters, I do see your point. Just for further clarity, how often do you hit with BAB +16? In other words, considering animation, whats the typical multi-swing breakdown....(i.e. +16,+16,+11 repeat?)

Well done, thanks for the info.

well min2 is the firts thing most melles make, (or should if they have half a brain)....

How ever i just assumed a +5 weapon then listed 3 OF mainy ways to get at leats a +3 weapon, +3 transmuting Richiouses weapons are a dime a dozen and VERY easy to get and make a good PF beater untill you get better.

You compained about my statment and you don't even know that in DDO BAB attacks scale UP NOT DOWN!!!!!
At BaB 16 your attack chain is +16, +16, +21, +25, +25...
So as you cna see EVEN if you were missign on a 3 or 4 that woudl alos ONLY be the firts attack in teh chain, this also means IF you need the destructions +4 (ok really it;s -4 to his ac but same net effect), AT MOST you only have higher chances to mis son your first 2 attack EVER after that the destruction is in place

tinyelvis
02-17-2009, 07:49 PM
Actually my comments on your statements were valid.

I have played DDO since 06. However, I have never managed to level a melee type past 6th level or so. My account is filled with Sorc's and Wizards. So for many things related to melee my reference is turbines often incorrect stated values.

I do recall reading a thread concerning poor animation sequencing slowing melee attacks. That is why I asked for some clarity here. Plus I know the vast majority of melee online don't meet your minimum DPS standard and am looking for explanations why. If they did meet it, then few if any Harry battles would go past round 2 (most in round 1), and that is not the case in most PUG's at all. My guess is people are missing a lot more often than this or are swinging a lot slower.

Strykersz
02-18-2009, 12:21 PM
Actually my comments on your statements were valid.

I have played DDO since 06. However, I have never managed to level a melee type past 6th level or so. My account is filled with Sorc's and Wizards. So for many things related to melee my reference is turbines often incorrect stated values.

I do recall reading a thread concerning poor animation sequencing slowing melee attacks. That is why I asked for some clarity here. Plus I know the vast majority of melee online don't meet your minimum DPS standard and am looking for explanations why. If they did meet it, then few if any Harry battles would go past round 2 (most in round 1), and that is not the case in most PUG's at all. My guess is people are missing a lot more often than this or are swinging a lot slower.

Explanation: There are a lot of poor melee players/builds.

The first thing any melee should go for is a double shard tier 3 shroud wep. This is where the vast majority of the power boost a melee will receive comes from. Other than that, the only dps increasers beyond basic gear(+6 str item) are madstone boots(which are situational depending on class and fight), VoD goggles(depend on you not getting aggro), maybe a + to hit competence item(i forget if this stacks with the bard song or not atm) and a +3 str tome. Even these pieces of gear(shroud wep excepted) do not provide a significant dps boost. The vast majority of your dps is baked into the build.

Solmage
03-01-2009, 12:23 AM
My caster is happy, though he'd like +2 Cha.

My sorcerer is a heck of a lot happier than if he had +2 cha =)

Thanks for the great preview. Right now damage IS of some limited use in end game. If you can bring down Harry in one round, a fully spec'd for damage sorcerer can out dps a melee by a good margin - for one round. So it's critical that he goes down in one round for the caster to be a meaningful contribution.

Also, Sorjek get's owned by fully damage spec'd casters, and I also like that. I must say I enjoy the idea of (some) casters being able to save a lot of their mana for (or having a shrine just outside) the end boss and using that to inflict a substantial amount of damage.

However, I'm hoping that dps will be made more of a factor in the game, without negatively affecting the players who have spent their gaming fortunes since the game went live in order to acquire stat damagers.

FluffyCalico
03-02-2009, 01:07 AM
Also, Sorjek get's owned by fully damage spec'd casters, and I also like that. I must say I enjoy the idea of (some) casters being able to save a lot of their mana for (or having a shrine just outside) the end boss and using that to inflict a substantial amount of damage.

.

Um never met a sorc yet that couldn't pull aggro from the tank if he wanted. Meaning DPS is limited to tank aggro not the caster.
Slow steady DPS wins this fight every time over sorc running in circle because it pulled aggro.

Pwesiela
03-02-2009, 12:33 PM
Um never met a sorc yet that couldn't pull aggro from the tank if he wanted. Meaning DPS is limited to tank aggro not the caster.
Slow steady DPS wins this fight every time over sorc running in circle because it pulled aggro.

Easiest SoS I've ever done are when the tanks DON'T try to pull aggro from the sorc/wiz and just beat on him to supplement. The key is to not run :D

stenkiller12
04-05-2010, 10:54 AM
Wizards may be the masters of metamagic, but the blood of Sorcerers runs filled with power. While the Elemental Savant lines aren't in Module 9, we decided to make the first Sorcerer capstone one that would be appealing to those damage-oriented characters.

Sorcerer Power Surge
Prereqs: Sorcerer Level 20
Benefit: All of your damage dealing spells deal 10% more damage, have their critical chance increased by 3%, and their critical multipliers increased by an additional 0.25.

Obviously, this stacks with all other similar effects, whether they be Potency, Arcane Lore, or the various damage enhancing enhancement lines.

As with the other capstones, subject to change before it goes live.

Edit: EYE KEN SPEL.

I'm not a very good player. But, i think Sorcerer's and wizzard's are the same.
I'm a lvl 3 cleric >.> i think cleric's are the best, cause they can summon monster's can heal ppl, and giving more attack. i'm not a Sorcerer Fan :)

SkyEyes_Sorceress
04-08-2010, 10:28 AM
I'm not a very good player. But, i think Sorcerer's and wizzard's are the same.
I'm a lvl 3 cleric >.> i think cleric's are the best, cause they can summon monster's can heal ppl, and giving more attack. i'm not a Sorcerer Fan :)

If you're not trolling.. You will be surprized, that mages summons that _same_ monsters, can heal (via wands) and repair warforgeds, reduce damage to party with control (instead of buffing/healiong) and you're speaking about melee attack? Because for magic attack it's not true

PopeDX
04-08-2010, 10:42 AM
Holy reviving a long-dead thread for nonsense, Batman!