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View Full Version : The shield's triumphant return to DDO



Sydril
02-06-2009, 08:40 AM
How about making it viable to use a shield again?

What about a fighter enhancement line that provides static stacking DR via a shield.

There are 70 ac TWF monk builds tumbling all over insulting people with tower shields.

How about a shield AC enhancement line?

How about about we make some better shields for the loot tables?

How about we do anything to give a reason for people to not make yet another TWF build.

elraido
02-06-2009, 08:47 AM
How about making it viable to use a shield again?

What about a fighter enhancement line that provides static stacking DR via a shield.

There are 70 ac TWF monk builds tumbling all over insulting people with tower shields.

How about a shield AC enhancement line?

How about about we make some better shields for the loot tables?

How about we do anything to give a reason for people to not make yet another TWF build.

Aren't there already like 50 threads like this?

DelScorcho
02-06-2009, 08:51 AM
/not signed. If the devs did make shields worthwhile, people would didn't have shields would complain, and then there would be a massive "Nerf the Shield" movement. Lets keep it gimpy. Far less work that way ...

Pyromaniac
02-06-2009, 08:59 AM
Shields are useful, they clutter up our loot tables so we can't get something we want.

/not signed but I have a suggestion - please up the gold piece value of all shields...

Sydril
02-06-2009, 10:38 AM
those of you who are lobbying against the improvement of shield use..what are you lobbying for? more imbalance? More advantages for two weapon fighting? Frankly I'm really surprised the devs let things get this out of balance. Its not that difficult to provide small things to improve game balance. The only people I see toting around shields are clerics and intimitanks, and only about 50% of those.

Elaril
02-06-2009, 10:41 AM
There are 70 ac TWF monk builds tumbling all over insulting people with tower shields.


That is a great line.

coolpenguin410
02-06-2009, 11:25 AM
/signed

There was a time, back in the good ole' days, when a cleric would refuse to heal some THF'ers unless they went sword and board. Not that I agree with that sentiment, but still, shields had a purpose.

Now, there's no real way to use a shield to up your AC as there is already and that's fine. I don't really agree with enhancements that increase your AC either.

However, I did see another thread that suggested spontaneous DR from your shield. That might work.

And I ask, is 'becaues some people will complain' a valid reason to not do something? What could the high-AC, non-shield user possibly complain about? That they take more damage than shield users but STILL GET HIT LESS OFTEN? Really?

Sydril
02-06-2009, 11:34 AM
Another nice enhancement / prestige line for fighters might be elemental resistances via shield. 1-4 point cost line for 3,6,9,12 resistances. prereq shield mastery etc.

Borror0
02-06-2009, 11:35 AM
Shields are useful, they clutter up our loot tables so we can't get something we want.
This amuses me greatly.

negative
02-06-2009, 11:38 AM
There was a time, back in the good ole' days, when a cleric would refuse to heal some THF'ers unless they went sword and board. Not that I agree with that sentiment, but still, shields had a purpose.
In retrospec, that was one of the worst things that happened back during Mod1-3.

I know a few returning vets, who are casual players who had built SnB barbarians (what a backwards idea that was even then) and now they all need to reroll. Which is fine, except they don't play enough to do that.

William_the_Bat
02-06-2009, 12:32 PM
Shields are uber! up until around level 10, when they stop scaling up. After that they get suckier and suckier as everyone else's AC continues to rise and yours does not.

icculus
02-06-2009, 12:42 PM
I know a few returning vets, who are casual players who had built SnB barbarians (what a backwards idea that was even then) and now they all need to reroll.

No need to re-roll at all: ANY S&B Barb can easily re-spec into THF for ~3 Dragonshards... That said, Barbs do make good intimitanks as well.

negative
02-06-2009, 12:50 PM
No need to re-roll at all: ANY S&B Barb can easily re-spec into THF for ~3 Dragonshards... That said, Barbs do make good intimitanks as well.
Some that I know also have stat point issues, but that may be unrelated.

And I agree, barbs can make good intimitanks. But those builds rely on DR and HP, not AC.

On topic, I'm all for seeing shields get a boost somehow. Not sure what the OP suggests is the best (why should only fighters get the enhancements) but something does need to be done.

coolpenguin410
02-06-2009, 12:56 PM
In retrospec, that was one of the worst things that happened back during Mod1-3.

I know a few returning vets, who are casual players who had built SnB barbarians (what a backwards idea that was even then) and now they all need to reroll. Which is fine, except they don't play enough to do that.

Actually, I know of a S&B barb who's a great tank to have in your party. He's 16 barb, took the Tower Shield Prof feat and has an unbuffed AC in the high 40's. Think of it: 400+ HP, high AC, Exp Retreat, Dim Door and Teleport clickies from feats, +50% healing from enhancements and items, and swinging a bastard sword with a 30+ strength...that's all before raging.

Borror0
02-06-2009, 01:01 PM
[...] and has an unbuffed AC in the high 40's.
Hello. How are you?

negative
02-06-2009, 02:26 PM
Actually, I know of a S&B barb who's a great tank to have in your party. He's 16 barb, took the Tower Shield Prof feat and has an unbuffed AC in the high 40's. Think of it: 400+ HP, high AC, Exp Retreat, Dim Door and Teleport clickies from feats, +50% healing from enhancements and items, and swinging a bastard sword with a 30+ strength...that's all before raging.
LOL Good one:D

You are joking...right?

Aspenor
02-06-2009, 02:28 PM
how about....nah

just give fighters something juicy and fun to play with, they'll stop crying over their shields eventually. :D

Bodybag
02-06-2009, 02:31 PM
A shield bash built into auto attack would work for me, kinda like having 2 weapons.

Noctus
02-06-2009, 02:32 PM
Actually, I know of a S&B barb who's a great tank to have in your party. He's 16 barb, took the Tower Shield Prof feat and has an unbuffed AC in the high 40's. Think of it: 400+ HP, high AC, Exp Retreat, Dim Door and Teleport clickies from feats, +50% healing from enhancements and items, and swinging a bastard sword with a 30+ strength...that's all before raging.


Huh? Huuuuh?!?



took the Tower Shield Prof featand has an unbuffed AC in the high 40's.

So that means if he doesnt rage he has an AC in the low 50´s most of the time = barely noticeable. Thats where AC starts working, but not to an extend where you see much of a difference.


that's all before raging.

If he doesnt rage he is basically a Fighter without Bonus feats. If he rages his AC goes down to where it has no effect any more.
---> All the AC effort for vain while still suffereing low DPS or renouncing 80% of your classe´s abilities to have a barely noticeable AC.



400+ HP

This is nice for a melee, but far from extraordinary. Average.



Exp Retreat, Dim Door and Teleport clickies from feats,

They are nice when soloing, but have no gain when you are fighting. They only offer convenience for the player, not combat prowess.



+50% healing from enhancements and items,

This is finally am ability where the character shines. If he is intimidate-tanking specced.
Okay HP, DR from blocking with the Tower Shield and easy healing up. Thats a nice combo.

But dont try to play this character as either AC or DPS, because it has neither with a Tower Shield on his arm.

coolpenguin410
02-06-2009, 04:14 PM
Huh? Huuuuh?!?




So that means if he doesnt rage he has an AC in the low 50´s most of the time = barely noticeable. Thats where AC starts working, but not to an extend where you see much of a difference.



If he doesnt rage he is basically a Fighter without Bonus feats. If he rages his AC goes down to where it has no effect any more.
---> All the AC effort for vain while still suffereing low DPS or renouncing 80% of your classe´s abilities to have a barely noticeable AC.




This is nice for a melee, but far from extraordinary. Average.




They are nice when soloing, but have no gain when you are fighting. They only offer convenience for the player, not combat prowess.




This is finally am ability where the character shines. If he is intimidate-tanking specced.
Okay HP, DR from blocking with the Tower Shield and easy healing up. Thats a nice combo.

But dont try to play this character as either AC or DPS, because it has neither with a Tower Shield on his arm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...not a power gamer build. I know. But, he's still an excellent tank to group with. And yeah, I should know better than to post details of a casual gamer's build on the forums.

You do realize you missed the point, right? Granted each item, when measured alone would be considered sub-par (especially on the forums). Even, I have trouble believing he can make this character work (and most of my characters are gimps). But with everything put together, this character truly shines and is great to have around. It doesn't matter that he doesn't do 900+ damage a shot or have impenetrable AC. He doesn't need either.

Anyways, I've probably derailed the thread enough. My apologies to the OP.

Aesop
02-06-2009, 04:20 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170912

Yeah there ya go Post number 2 that way I don't have to copy and paste the whoe thing again.

Most people don't get through the whole thing but hey its there

Aesop

Noctus
02-06-2009, 07:22 PM
Yeah, yeah, yeah...not a power gamer build. I know. But, he's still an excellent tank to group with. And yeah, I should know better than to post details of a casual gamer's build on the forums.


It´s not about build, it´s about playstyle.

His Barbarian has all the neccessary cornerstones a Barbarian needs. 400+ HP, STR 30+ unraged.

The reason his performance will always be sub-par is that he plays his Barbarian like an AC fighter.
AC is a thing which only nets you a gain afther level 10+ when you really focus your whole build and gear on it, and take the right classes. If you only invest something into AC, you will get nothing in return afther Gianthold. All your efforts will then go to waste, making your character much less that he could be with a better strategy.

Exactly same build, just swap the Bastardsword&Tower Shield for a Greataxe, activate Power Atack,rage and deal some huge damage. Yes, he would get hit more, but thats not because he lowered his AC, but because now he starts taking aggro away from other melees who most likely are not so extremly easy to heal.

In case he skilled Intimidate he can still take out the Tower Shield when he needs to do some intimidating and block all the damage of the intimidated mobs away.


Playstyle > build


There are just some playstyles for characters who hardly work:
- traps-only Rogue
- bow-only Ranger
- Sword&Board-Barbarian
- Mystic Theurge (equal Wizard/Cleric mix)
These will always perform subpar because of the game mechanics. Some build/playstyle combos just wont work out the way the player planned them to do.

You could hang such played characters with raidloot and +2 tomes like a christmas tree, still what they can contribute to the group´s success is less that what the new guy with the character on the Turbine´s preset path would bring.


P.S.
You might have percieved my explanations why this character´s performance is subpar as taking the character down because he isnt a flavor-of-the-month cooky cuter buildor at least planned and tweaked out to the last skillpoint. This is not my intention.
I wanted to explain why i think that this is bad idea on how to play a barbarian, so that if i missed some critical part of the idea behind it you could tell me that and so lead to a better understanding of the game.

Bronko
02-06-2009, 07:32 PM
those of you who are lobbying against the improvement of shield use..what are you lobbying for? more imbalance? More advantages for two weapon fighting? Frankly I'm really surprised the devs let things get this out of balance. Its not that difficult to provide small things to improve game balance. The only people I see toting around shields are clerics and intimitanks, and only about 50% of those.

I hate to point out the obvious cause-effect of your statement, but did you ever consider that the reason hardly anyone is using shield any more is simply because they have become out-scaled and obsolete? If shields actually counted for something in regards to AC (or anything else for the matter) you might see a resurgence of characters using them.

I hate these threads, but I hate the imbalance even more. My fingers clicked on 'reply' before I could do anything about it. This reply is in no way intended to flame, diminish, or otherwise belittle Sydril's or anyone else's argument. :D

uhgungawa
02-07-2009, 02:01 AM
I find it funny that you say "FIGHTERS". Let me guess, they are the only ones to use shields? It should be across the board, Pallies use shields too.

If you make it a one trick pony, then there is no point. I have 2 rangers and I love them. My fighter swaps from S/B to TWF as needed, bu my pally is mostly S/B typed. Why should ithe game cater to just one type, and leave the others out?

I would love to see some love to S/B, but all S/B not just your type cause you feel gimped. All or none, plain and simple

icculus
02-07-2009, 08:42 AM
Some that I know also have stat point issues, but that may be unrelated.
? Accepting that they are MELEE Barbbarians, if any of them cannot make the 17STR requirement for iTHF & gTHF then the builds have far greater problems then the fact that they are S&B. In fact, if they cannot make 19STR for sTHF (if/when it enters the game) they should simply reroll for that reason...

I mean, I know of some BOWbarians that could not make 19 base STR being DEX based ranged combatants and all, but at least one of them could make 17STR.

I suppose a WoP Rapier finesse iCrit Barb would be ok for trash, but I am not surethat is really playing to the strengths of the class at all...


And I agree, barbs can make good intimitanks. But those builds rely on DR and HP, not AC.
Those are definitely big points, but AC can play a role when not raging. There is a 'transformitank' that goes from raging THFing to 60 standing AC just by dismissing his rage, engaging CE and equiping his Twr Shield.


On topic, I'm all for seeing shields get a boost somehow. Not sure what the OP suggests is the best (why should only fighters get the enhancements) but something does need to be done.

Agreed - shields need a boost, but it should not be FTR specific.

Lonewolfe
02-07-2009, 09:21 AM
And yeah, I should know better than to post details of a casual gamer's build on the forums.


That is a fact. People on the forums will crush any idea that isn't what a few have deemed "the only possible effective build", so why bother. Build their "forum approved" cookie cutters because if you aren't 110% efficient ( by their standards ) then you are worthless.

I made this mistake once and it was horrible. Funny part is, now that my guy is capped, people "depend" on him to help the guild with the raids and other such high end quests. We raid daily and are a well known / respected guild. They request my presence, not look for ways to exclude me. And contrary to what a well respected member of the forums thinks, it's not because people are too nice to tell someone their toon is worthless. As many have shown on this forum, people are all too willing to give their sage-like advice on why your toon is left wanting. Of course, as I recall the comments made about my build in the thread from the so called "elders", I wasn't even supposed to hit cap because I would be black listed for my uber gimpness.

Ahhhhh, but I digress..... my point in all of this is build what you want, let others build what they want and have fun with it. Being a lemming so that you fit in is a futile effort.

moorewr
02-07-2009, 09:36 AM
All I think has to happen is for some epic shields to appear as named, crafting, or raid loot. I imagine shield crafting is next on the crafting to-dos anyway. I should point out that I see a lot of people with +5 mithril tower shields or levik's equipped when we make our runs to the Hound or Sulu.. so somebody thinks shields are still useful. And by somebody I don't just mean my poor S&B intimidate fighter..

Just a few more points of potential shield bonus - say +5 over the best current tower shield, with mithril for a higher dex cap, would give S&B builds a viable AC again.

That said Aesop's suggestions are excellent.. my focus is less on the damage chance from shields during combat (although during shield blocking I like it) than on a chance at DR activation when not shield blocking..

query
02-07-2009, 09:24 PM
That is a fact. People on the forums will crush any idea that isn't what a few have deemed "the only possible effective build", so why bother. Build their "forum approved" cookie cutters because if you aren't 110% efficient ( by their standards ) then you are worthless.... Of course, as I recall the comments made about my build in the thread from the so called "elders", I wasn't even supposed to hit cap because I would be black listed for my uber gimpness.

Ahhhhh, but I digress..... my point in all of this is build what you want, let others build what they want and have fun with it. Being a lemming so that you fit in is a futile effort.


Darn straight! Funny how my "gimped at creation" characters I made (not all my PC's BTW, but some builds I did,) "explained" by those "experts" how the overall class/build (did they ever play those? I bet not,) will fail ultimately. So soloing high end, or using ranged to take out the problems the mêlées miss seem to work just as well as my balanced monk....and I don't want to post the remaining when the point's been made through gameplay.

Not that I took the ingame advice and told them to shove it up.....I said not so I didn't :p

Sydril
02-16-2009, 10:34 AM
the defender enhancements looks great. definitely a good start to seeing more shield users in the game. *high fives devs*.

Aesop
02-16-2009, 12:50 PM
the defender enhancements looks great. definitely a good start to seeing more shield users in the game. *high fives devs*.

Its actually not a good game design in my opinion. What it does is further pidgeon hole the fighting style. PrEs should not be required to fix a style. What they need to do is fix the basic problems with the style not add more glop on top. PrEs wouldn't need to be so overpowered if they would just focus on the cake and leave the icing for later.

Aesop

Borror0
02-16-2009, 01:10 PM
PrEs should not be required to fix a style.
Tell me how any of the PrE are biased toward S&B.

bandyman1
02-16-2009, 01:22 PM
DoS and SD aren't biased toward S&B?


I see what you're saying Borr, in that the only thing a TWFing member of those Pres looses is the TS dex bonuses, but even you can't deny that there is far better synergy there for toons with heavy armor and using a shield, considering the AC boosts and extra hate generation.

I seriously doubt you'll see many TWFing DoS or SD. They'll opt for KotC and Kensai most likely.

negative
02-16-2009, 01:30 PM
I also see what you're saying Bor, but SD also offers increased AC and DR when shield blocking, as well as passive DR just for equiping a shield. Sure, anyone can switch a shield in when they want to block, but there are clearly elements in that PrE that only work with SnB. And the passive DR just for equiping a shield is something that was suggested as a fix for SnB in general. I suspect a lot of the complaints stem from that portion, even if it is underpowered.

Mhykke
02-16-2009, 01:38 PM
I seriously doubt you'll see many TWFing DoS or SD.

My fighter's gonna be a TWFing SD.

Borror0
02-16-2009, 01:39 PM
I seriously doubt you'll see many TWFing DoS or SD. They'll opt for KotC and Kensai most likely.
Of course, because they want DPS and not defensive capabilities. That's the only reason. Many Dex-based TWF interested by AC will pick up defender, or at least, it certainly is an interesting option.

If S&B was not currently biased toward intimitanking and that a "S&B DPSer" was not an oxymoron, you'd see some non-Defender but right now intimitanking is by far the best way to play a S&B toon and spec'ing a S&B character for DPS instead is silly. That's the situation we have now.

There are ways to change this, but there are far more pressing issues.

I suspect a lot of the complaints stem from that portion, even if it is underpowered.
Aesop said "PrEs should not be required to fix a style."

If it is underpowered, it is certainly not fixing the fighting style, is it?

EDIT:

[...] considering the AC boosts and extra hate generation.
The extra hate generation is either neutral or biased toward TWF.

By AC boost, I assume you mean the defensive stance which benefits TWF slightly better by giving better DPS.

Aesop
02-16-2009, 02:19 PM
Tell me how any of the PrE are biased toward S&B.

Its not really... but perception is leaning that way based on what I was responding to.

Aesop

Suzaku
02-16-2009, 02:26 PM
perhaps they should add animated shields...

Aesop
02-17-2009, 05:00 AM
perhaps they should add animated shields...

The only people that would help are the TWF and THF ... S&B would still be s.o.l.


Aesop

Auran82
02-17-2009, 05:14 AM
I have mentioned this at least once before, S&B characters generally (in the case of Paladin or Fighter builds) rely on their armor and shield to give most of their AC which for some reason is capped at the magical +5 and as such has not really improved since level 8 (they have sidestepped this a number of times with DT armors having higher base armor etc)

Whereas dex based/monk splashes get most of their AC from stats which are blown out of proportion from enhancements, the availability of tomes and exceptional stat bonuses.

My fighter also uses S&B when tanking and sits on about 62ac totally unbuffed, sits at about 70 with barkskin/bard song/haste which isn't too bad, but am still working on it. He is able to swap to TWF when needed as well and does decent DPS.

Aesop
02-17-2009, 06:05 AM
I have mentioned this at least once before, S&B characters generally (in the case of Paladin or Fighter builds) rely on their armor and shield to give most of their AC which for some reason is capped at the magical +5 and as such has not really improved since level 8 (they have sidestepped this a number of times with DT armors having higher base armor etc)

Whereas dex based/monk splashes get most of their AC from stats which are blown out of proportion from enhancements, the availability of tomes and exceptional stat bonuses.

My fighter also uses S&B when tanking and sits on about 62ac totally unbuffed, sits at about 70 with barkskin/bard song/haste which isn't too bad, but am still working on it. He is able to swap to TWF when needed as well and does decent DPS.

That's fine but what would you do to fix the balance issues?

S&B should have less DPS than TWF(though more than double heck more that 75% more is unreasonable) ... and TWF should not beat S&B on defense. There has to be a happy medium floating around somewhere.

Aesop

esoitl
02-17-2009, 06:33 AM
I have mentioned this at least once before, S&B characters generally (in the case of Paladin or Fighter builds) rely on their armor and shield to give most of their AC which for some reason is capped at the magical +5 and as such has not really improved since level 8 (they have sidestepped this a number of times with DT armors having higher base armor etc)

Whereas dex based/monk splashes get most of their AC from stats which are blown out of proportion from enhancements, the availability of tomes and exceptional stat bonuses.

My fighter also uses S&B when tanking and sits on about 62ac totally unbuffed, sits at about 70 with barkskin/bard song/haste which isn't too bad, but am still working on it. He is able to swap to TWF when needed as well and does decent DPS.

There is a fine reason for that and it lies in the PHB.
There is also a reason why we will likely not see any +7 or greater stat items, which is also from the PHB.

They have been getting around these but staying somewhat true to the actually D&D rules regarding them. We do have many items that should not be until epic levels but that's a spawn of the suffix/prefix system spitting out something good, maybe even useful if you're lucky.

Gratch
02-17-2009, 09:29 PM
I've updated the old favorite DDO1Liner (http://www.ddo1liners.co.uk/archives/new1.htm) for current DDO:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1253/shieldcopyzh2.jpg

Aganazer
02-19-2009, 09:40 AM
This thread seemed right at home in the "suggestions" forum. I wonder why it was moved. Anyway, I'm still new to DDO and haven't seen higher level shield problems first hand, but it seems like shields should be more useful for elemental resistances. From a low level shields should start dropping with a generic "Lesser Elemental Resistance I" that adds one resistance to all elements. Higher levels would of course see higher resistances on their gear. Let it stack with the other energy resistances.

Borror0
02-19-2009, 10:38 AM
I've updated the old favorite DDO1Liner (http://www.ddo1liners.co.uk/archives/new1.htm) for current DDO:
Awesome!