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Eladrin
01-22-2009, 04:20 PM
In the upcoming module, there will be a change to the way the helmet Minos Legens functions:

The pseudo-Toughness feat the helmet grants will grant 20 additional hit points to the wearer (that stack with all other sources of extra hit points) regardless of character level, and will no longer grant unintended access to enhancements that require the Toughness feat as a prerequisite.

It is possible that characters that possess Toughness related enhancements solely due to the feat granted by Minos Legens may have their enhancements respecced when they log in after Module 9 goes live.

If you do not wish to risk this due to wishing to keep your current enhancement layout, I highly recommend acquiring the Toughness feat before then.

juniorpfactors
01-22-2009, 04:23 PM
how many days do we have to respec before this goes live? ,,, I need time to obtain a sibreys dragonshard

jrp

PurdueDave
01-22-2009, 04:25 PM
how many days do we have to respec before this goes live? ,,, I need time to obtain a sibreys dragonshard

jrp

Nice try.:D

Logicman69
01-22-2009, 04:28 PM
Thanks for the head's up.

GoldyGopher
01-22-2009, 04:29 PM
I think this change should be posted in the Launcher.

Gratch
01-22-2009, 04:31 PM
Um yeah... um... when per se should we expect this fix? Mid to late Feb?

PS: About time.

PPS: Any chance of a new capstone reveal today?

QuintonReece
01-22-2009, 04:33 PM
Wow, thanks for letting us know. Whether we like it or not, I appreciate you giving us a heads up.

Thanks again.

kingfisher
01-22-2009, 04:33 PM
this does not count as an extra preview this week

k1dwizard
01-22-2009, 04:34 PM
/sarcasm on

Yay! our update for the next mod for the week!

/sarcasm off

i kinda expected this was going to be coming, is this a punishment for all the *shifty eyes* "stomping." or the ungrateful people demanding the answers for rumors. I was just wondering cause there are a number of us who enjoy, and appreciate, your weekly previews of capstones and what not. anyway thanks for the clarification, my new ranger will have to deal with it.

juniorpfactors
01-22-2009, 04:37 PM
Nice try.:D

jrp taking one for the team....:cool:

maddmatt70
01-22-2009, 04:40 PM
whoop double post..

maddmatt70
01-22-2009, 04:40 PM
Thanks for the heads up Eladrin. This is good information for all those barbarians out there who want to keep criitical rage 2..

Edit: I will get the word out to my guildies so they know..

Strakeln
01-22-2009, 04:45 PM
In the upcoming module, there will be a change to the way the helmet Minos Legens functions:

The pseudo-Toughness feat the helmet grants will grant 20 additional hit points to the wearer (that stack with all other sources of extra hit points) regardless of character level, and will no longer grant unintended access to enhancements that require the Toughness feat as a prerequisite.

It is possible that characters that possess Toughness related enhancements solely due to the feat granted by Minos Legens may have their enhancements respecced when they log in after Module 9 goes live.

If you do not wish to risk this due to wishing to keep your current enhancement layout, I highly recommend acquiring the Toughness feat before then./applause

THIS is the kind of communication we've been lacking!!!! See the key elements here, folks? Eladrin noted a change that would be coming up that might make a few people butthurt, so he communicated the change to us before it went live!

I probably shouldn't be so excited at seeing a simple tidbit of communication with customers, but it is what it is. Keep it up, Eladrin... you seem to be making a stand against the "wall of silence". Don't think it's going unnoticed.

Kistilan
01-22-2009, 04:51 PM
Thanks Eladrin. Will let individuals know on Argo.

Impaqt
01-22-2009, 04:54 PM
Translation:

If you want to keep Critcal Rage,and are exploting the Minos Legend, Get rid of your TOughness Enhancments or get the Toughness feat before Mod 9 Goes live.

Ganidel
01-22-2009, 04:56 PM
In the upcoming module, there will be a change to the way the helmet Minos Legens functions:

The pseudo-Toughness feat the helmet grants will grant 20 additional hit points to the wearer (that stack with all other sources of extra hit points) regardless of character level, and will no longer grant unintended access to enhancements that require the Toughness feat as a prerequisite.

It is possible that characters that possess Toughness related enhancements solely due to the feat granted by Minos Legens may have their enhancements respecced when they log in after Module 9 goes live.

If you do not wish to risk this due to wishing to keep your current enhancement layout, I highly recommend acquiring the Toughness feat before then.


Shouldnt it be 22 as thats lvl 20 hp? As it looks like your just trying to keep toughness but not let ppl have the enhancement.

Tenkari_Rozahas
01-22-2009, 05:04 PM
Shouldnt it be 22 as thats lvl 20 hp? As it looks like your just trying to keep toughness but not let ppl have the enhancement.

.... its a static bonus at any level, like the "Heroic Durability" feat we all get at first level, its not like the normal toughness feats.

Ganidel
01-22-2009, 05:10 PM
.... its a static bonus at any level, like the "Heroic Durability" feat we all get at first level, its not like the normal toughness feats.

I understand how it works thanks, but from what they'v said previous, your ment to get toughness, just not the enhancement from it.


Betting you have a dwarf toon :), sour grapes?

swooshrp
01-22-2009, 05:12 PM
In the upcoming module, there will be a change to the way the helmet Minos Legens functions:

The pseudo-Toughness feat the helmet grants will grant 20 additional hit points to the wearer (that stack with all other sources of extra hit points) regardless of character level, and will no longer grant unintended access to enhancements that require the Toughness feat as a prerequisite.

It is possible that characters that possess Toughness related enhancements solely due to the feat granted by Minos Legens may have their enhancements respecced when they log in after Module 9 goes live.

If you do not wish to risk this due to wishing to keep your current enhancement layout, I highly recommend acquiring the Toughness feat before then.

Eladrin,

Are you inferring that if one obatins the Toughness feat, your enhancements will not be automatically respecced? Can you assure this will happen?

Though I have no barbarians, I can see all those barbarians that want to retain their critical rage improved crit and dont want to respect might be very very upset once mod 9 goes live.

Tenkari_Rozahas
01-22-2009, 05:17 PM
Eladrin,

Are you inferring that if one obatins the Toughness feat, your enhancements will not be automatically respecced? Can you assure this will happen?

Though I have no barbarians, I can see all those barbarians that want to retain their critical rage improved crit and dont want to respect might be very very upset once mod 9 goes live.

you'd think they would have their toughness feats before finding a rare named item.... I dont like building chars around an item i may or may not get for a long time.


Ganidel: Actually, no I dont, I p[rimarily run WF characters, So used to them that i find it hard playing Doirf's or halflings casue of the massive perspective change when it comes to being half your height.

Amabel
01-22-2009, 05:20 PM
I am keeping crit rage II.

I will be removing Minos Legens on my barb and completely respeccing the enhancements tonight.

Minos Legens won't be going back on until after the dust has settled on mod 9.

Whatever assurances you get on the forums won't count for anything if the coding plays up. I suggest anyone wanting to keep crit rage II adopts a cautious approach.

It's not like the extra hit points from the helm matter to a barb anyway - find another heavy fort item for a month or so.

bobbryan2
01-22-2009, 05:20 PM
you'd think they would have their toughness feats before finding a rare named item.... I dont like building chars around an item i may or may not get for a long time.


Ganidel: Actually, no I dont, I p[rimarily run WF characters, So used to them that i find it hard playing Doirf's or halflings casue of the massive perspective change when it comes to being half your height.

It's not a rare named item. It only costs like 10-20k plat off the AH

Impaqt
01-22-2009, 05:20 PM
you'd think they would have their toughness feats before finding a rare named item.... I dont like building chars around an item i may or may not get for a long time.


Ganidel: Actually, no I dont, I p[rimarily run WF characters, So used to them that i find it hard playing Doirf's or halflings casue of the massive perspective change when it comes to being half your height.

Al you need is 20 Tapestries to get a Minos Legend. Its not Rare. Its almost a Required Item nowadays. Picking one up is usually the first thing I do as soon as I step into the Necropolis. I think my last character had his a level 8.

Tenkari_Rozahas
01-22-2009, 05:26 PM
i only have one char whos ever been anywhere near using one, as I moved a lot of my chars to PD, its hard getting up there, so thats the primary reason I dont have one, though my one non- PD guy could use one if i actually had him run it >>

bobbryan2
01-22-2009, 05:28 PM
i only have one char whos ever been anywhere near using one, as I moved a lot of my chars to PD, its hard getting up there, so thats the primary reason I dont have one, though my one non- PD guy could use one if i actually had him run it >>


There's no running anything. You buy 20 tapestries off the AH for like 10k plat and turn them in. Done.

Tenkari_Rozahas
01-22-2009, 05:30 PM
There's no running anything. You buy 20 tapestries off the AH for like 10k plat and turn them in. Done.

Assuming i got that much, he might be a hagglebot Bard, but I think He's close to broke, having bought a ton of scrolls that were removed from the vendor lists, like DDoor and a couple others.

Spisey
01-22-2009, 05:32 PM
I added Heavy fort to my dt armor and deleted my minos 2 weeks ago in lieu of this upcoming change just in case a respec could happen. Good to see that this was offered to players in advance.

Uska
01-22-2009, 05:32 PM
It's not a rare named item. It only costs like 10-20k plat off the AH

or free if you just do a few tap runs or have nice guildies who have done extra ones.

Hendrik
01-22-2009, 05:35 PM
Eladrin;


Thank you VERY much for taking the time and stopping by to let us know about this up and coming change!

I appreciate it and sounds like many others here do too.

:cool:

Darth_Sizzle
01-22-2009, 05:38 PM
Shouldnt it be 22 as thats lvl 20 hp? As it looks like your just trying to keep toughness but not let ppl have the enhancement.

by that logic it should actually be 13 hp, since it's a ml 11 item

WeaselKing
01-22-2009, 05:44 PM
Seems that Barbs who don't want to lose Imp Crit Range should really be careful about this.

bobbryan2
01-22-2009, 05:45 PM
by that logic it should actually be 13 hp, since it's a ml 11 item

What logic is that? Crazy, mumbo-jumbo logic?

frugal_gourmet
01-22-2009, 05:46 PM
Interesting. So, the maximum hit points for players with the Minos Legens has actually gone up by 20.

Beherit_Baphomar
01-22-2009, 05:47 PM
Translation:

If you want to keep Critcal Rage,and are exploting the Minos Legend, Get rid of your TOughness Enhancments or get the Toughness feat before Mod 9 Goes live.

****, thanks Impaqt...dint even think of that...

Uska
01-22-2009, 05:47 PM
What logic is that? Crazy, mumbo-jumbo logic?

No actually it makes sense since in ddo toughness gives 3 hp at first level and level afterwards, but to follow keeping toughness they would have to give us a variable number 20 is a nice round figure. more then the min and less the max

Phidius
01-22-2009, 05:49 PM
I really got used to that free feat, so this announcement wasn't a joy to me.

The fact that it was made, however, was.

cdbd3rd
01-22-2009, 05:51 PM
.... or have nice guildies who have extra ones...

...who tell you what they're for so ya don't go and throw them on the AH when they give you a stack out of the blue. :o



Cuppy will never forgive me for that. :rolleyes:

WeaselKing
01-22-2009, 05:51 PM
Interesting. So, the maximum hit points for players with the Minos Legens has actually gone up by 20.

No toughness feats have always stacked, unless I'm missing something here.

darthmaul121783
01-22-2009, 05:53 PM
Thanks Eladrin. good looking out

Uska
01-22-2009, 05:54 PM
No toughness feats have always stacked, unless I'm missing something here.



nope not missing a thing and we are actually losing 2 hp from the max when the cap hits 20

frugal_gourmet
01-22-2009, 06:02 PM
No toughness feats have always stacked, unless I'm missing something here.

Ah, I see what you're saying.

Wait. No I don't.

Wait. Yeah I do.

Oreg
01-22-2009, 06:04 PM
Thanks for the heads up.

Nevthial
01-22-2009, 06:06 PM
Nice ! A good fix !

Aspenor
01-22-2009, 06:11 PM
thanks for the heads up El, I took toughness just because of this.

Jadeare
01-22-2009, 06:12 PM
Thanks for the heads up Eladrin. Appreciate it.

QuantumFX
01-22-2009, 06:53 PM
The pseudo-Toughness feat the helmet grants will grant 20 additional hit points to the wearer (that stack with all other sources of extra hit points) regardless of character level, and will no longer grant unintended access to enhancements that require the Toughness feat as a prerequisite.

So does that mean it works like a False Life item? (Where switching it out for a clickie is akin to punching yourself in the face.) Or will it continue to work like a +CON item?

SableShadow
01-22-2009, 06:54 PM
Thanks for the heads up! :)

Lorien_the_First_One
01-22-2009, 07:16 PM
/applause

THIS is the kind of communication we've been lacking!!!! See the key elements here, folks? Eladrin noted a change that would be coming up that might make a few people butthurt, so he communicated the change to us before it went live!

I probably shouldn't be so excited at seeing a simple tidbit of communication with customers, but it is what it is. Keep it up, Eladrin... you seem to be making a stand against the "wall of silence". Don't think it's going unnoticed.

Agreed. Thanks Eladrin, that's one that could have really upset people if it caught them by surprise.

And I also agree with the other poster, this is one that may rate a note in the launcher.

baddax
01-22-2009, 07:39 PM
When you guys do this you need to rename the helms description as it does not Give the toughness feat as described, the same with mobility.

Also now i will have to respec my characters that swapped toughness for a more useful feat, witch isnt anything major, just a hassle.

definitely thumbs down on this move. :mad:

smatt
01-22-2009, 09:07 PM
While I will take some whacks on my toons on this move, I think it's a good one for the overall play of the game. There were to many non-fighter/Barb classes with too many feats and too many hit points out there. Sorry to those that concentrate on those builds and toons, it will certainly cause you some grief.... And maybe just a slight adjustment to your playstyle.... But look at it this way, you got a bonus for a longtime that you probably shouldn't have ever had ;)
One huge downside is that this will give the "I have to have a complete re-spec mechanism" crowd another shot of adrenaline :rolleyes:


Good move though from my point of view, as well as a VERY good move to put it out there for people to see very early on! :)

muffinlad
01-22-2009, 09:49 PM
I am leveling a new Sorc (CG), and when I got to 11th level I put on the old "Horny Hat of Justice". I had three AP saved up, and when I next visited the trainer....I thought "Hey, when did I get Toughness?" shugged and took the two enhancements I was able to take.

Later I figured out what had happened...so yesterday, when I hit 12th, I took Toughness...before I even saw this. Had no idea it was even possible, and I understand why the dev's are fixing it.

Regs,

muffintough

Oreg
01-22-2009, 10:00 PM
I am leveling a new Sorc (CG), and when I got to 11th level I put on the old "Horny Hat of Justice". I had three AP saved up, and when I next visited the trainer....I thought "Hey, when did I get Toughness?" shugged and took the two enhancements I was able to take.

Later I figured out what had happened...so yesterday, when I hit 12th, I took Toughness...before I even saw this. Had no idea it was even possible, and I understand why the dev's are fixing it.

Regs,

muffintough

Don't get much news down on Drury Lane do ya?

;)

Borror0
01-22-2009, 10:02 PM
thanks for the heads up El, I took toughness just because of this.
What the... Aspenor without his ugly elf avatar?! :eek:

SEMPER
01-22-2009, 10:05 PM
Later I figured out what had happened...so yesterday, when I hit 12th, I took Toughness...before I even saw this. Had no idea it was even possible, and I understand why the dev's are fixing it.


to me its not a fix its a change cuz the helm is working as it should be , it says toughness feat which means u are granted the feat if u are wearing this item , just like a mobility robe , or a precise shot bow etc etc.... I do understand why they are changing it due to people putting the helm on, then speccing there toons and then swapping it out for something else more useful and not losing there enhancement hps, but the helm says ( FEAT ) just like ne thing else that means it granted so i dont understand why u would change something thats been around since what mod 6 ? , sorry cant remember that long ago just seems silly to change it now.

Uska
01-22-2009, 10:06 PM
When you guys do this you need to rename the helms description as it does not Give the toughness feat as described, the same with mobility.

Also now i will have to respec my characters that swapped toughness for a more useful feat, witch isnt anything major, just a hassle.

definitely thumbs down on this move. :mad:

why it shouldnt have allowed you to use enhancments as it was temp only

Uska
01-22-2009, 10:09 PM
Later I figured out what had happened...so yesterday, when I hit 12th, I took Toughness...before I even saw this. Had no idea it was even possible, and I understand why the dev's are fixing it.


to me its not a fix its a change cuz the helm is working as it should be , it says toughness feat which means u are granted the feat if u are wearing this item , just like a mobility robe , or a precise shot bow etc etc.... I do understand why they are changing it due to people putting the helm on, then speccing there toons and then swapping it out for something else more useful and not losing there enhancement hps, but the helm says ( FEAT ) just like ne thing else that means it granted so i dont understand why u would change something thats been around since what mod 6 ? , sorry cant remember that long ago just seems silly to change it now.

it is a fix as you only have the toughness feat when you have it on so when you take if off you dont, so you shouldnt be able to take enhancemnets on a tmep effect

SEMPER
01-22-2009, 10:18 PM
it is a fix as you only have the toughness feat when you have it on so when you take if off you dont, so you shouldnt be able to take enhancemnets on a tmep effect

as i previously stated

: I do understand why they are changing it due to people putting the helm on, then speccing there toons and then swapping it out for something else more useful and not losing there enhancement hps

i know its a fix but to me its a change i understand that u should lose the feat when u take it off but im sure they didnt want to bother with coding to make it work the way it was entended to, cuz if u respec a toughness feat normally all of your action points are reset and im sure they didnt want that happening :) every time u took it off, but like i said just seems silly to change it now after so much time has gone by with the way it is

Desteria
01-23-2009, 03:08 AM
In the upcoming module, there will be a change to the way the helmet Minos Legens functions:

The pseudo-Toughness feat the helmet grants will grant 20 additional hit points to the wearer (that stack with all other sources of extra hit points) regardless of character level, and will no longer grant unintended access to enhancements that require the Toughness feat as a prerequisite.

It is possible that characters that possess Toughness related enhancements solely due to the feat granted by Minos Legens may have their enhancements respecced when they log in after Module 9 goes live.

If you do not wish to risk this due to wishing to keep your current enhancement layout, I highly recommend acquiring the Toughness feat before then.

It's a Fix mainy of us saw comming, exentualy!!!


/applause

THIS is the kind of communication we've been lacking!!!! See the key elements here, folks? Eladrin noted a change that would be coming up that might make a few people butthurt, so he communicated the change to us before it went live!

I probably shouldn't be so excited at seeing a simple tidbit of communication with customers, but it is what it is. Keep it up, Eladrin... you seem to be making a stand against the "wall of silence". Don't think it's going unnoticed.

Could not agree more, Sure I'd love to beabel to take the AP's with actuly spending a feat, so this fix, (soem will say 'nerf'), sucks in that way but the warning and comunication about it makes it all ok imo.

Desteria
01-23-2009, 03:19 AM
Later I figured out what had happened...so yesterday, when I hit 12th, I took Toughness...before I even saw this. Had no idea it was even possible, and I understand why the dev's are fixing it.


to me its not a fix its a change cuz the helm is working as it should be , it says toughness feat which means u are granted the feat if u are wearing this item , just like a mobility robe , or a precise shot bow etc etc.... I do understand why they are changing it due to people putting the helm on, then speccing there toons and then swapping it out for something else more useful and not losing there enhancement hps, but the helm says ( FEAT ) just like ne thing else that means it granted so i dont understand why u would change something thats been around since what mod 6 ? , sorry cant remember that long ago just seems silly to change it now.

There are further bugs involved with this that I don;t want to post because they may be considerered exploits and i dont want to get in truble for it...
This si a Fix that is needed because of how some of DOD is coded, in PnP it coudl funtion as it does now with otu problem but in DDO it would requier a rediculess code update, (compleat overhall to large sections probably), to make it properly mimmic the PnP functions with items granting pre-recs for other things.

SatansToupee
01-23-2009, 04:08 AM
Why even call it a feat anymore ? its improved false life, that was what was nice about the helm.

Uska
01-23-2009, 04:19 AM
Why even call it a feat anymore ? its improved false life, that was what was nice about the helm.

its still better then improved false life which it will stack with plus it gives heavy fort and for the 11-17 level crowds it gives more hp then they would have gotten with orginal format.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-23-2009, 08:06 AM
Why even call it a feat anymore ? its improved false life, that was what was nice about the helm.

It stacks with improved false life and the HP adjusts with level, so you are simply wrong, it does act as the feat.

What they are doing with this helm is consistant with how they have handled temporary items throughout the game. Temp dex on a piece of jewlery for example don't qualify you for a feat based on dex. The mobility feat on an item doesn't qualify you for spring attack, etc. This isn't true to PnP, but is is one heck of a lot easier to code so I can see why they took this route.

Film
01-23-2009, 09:40 AM
Thank you for the notification of the change with enough advance to respec our characters prior to Mod 9 if required. Very well done!

secondchance
01-23-2009, 10:03 AM
In the upcoming module, there will be a change to the way the helmet Minos Legens functions:

The pseudo-Toughness feat the helmet grants will grant 20 additional hit points to the wearer (that stack with all other sources of extra hit points) regardless of character level, and will no longer grant unintended access to enhancements that require the Toughness feat as a prerequisite.

It is possible that characters that possess Toughness related enhancements solely due to the feat granted by Minos Legens may have their enhancements respecced when they log in after Module 9 goes live.

If you do not wish to risk this due to wishing to keep your current enhancement layout, I highly recommend acquiring the Toughness feat before then.

nice job a good fix IMO....also like that you guys are giving a heads up on it... (must be a lot people using this loop hole me thinks) so does this mean mod 9 is close?

Gunga
01-23-2009, 10:18 AM
/applause

THIS is the kind of communication we've been lacking!!!! See the key elements here, folks? Eladrin noted a change that would be coming up that might make a few people butthurt, so he communicated the change to us before it went live!

I probably shouldn't be so excited at seeing a simple tidbit of communication with customers, but it is what it is. Keep it up, Eladrin... you seem to be making a stand against the "wall of silence". Don't think it's going unnoticed.

He's been communicating, the only thing lacking is your attention.

juniorpfactors
01-23-2009, 10:38 AM
umm if you thought this wasnt gonna get fixed your just way to naive... the reality is the thought that it was more important to "fix the house J theatre appearance" and make the ruins of Threnal look more like a "dig site" before the fixed a item that Gave a free "Feat" which almost everyone had to know was unintentional, this should have been quickly fixed 9 months ago

jrp

Dexxaan
01-23-2009, 10:45 AM
Although 5 of my builds will be affected by this change (Luckily not Bruttus)....I'm actually glad it's happening.

Why? Because multi-classing has been strengthened, as FEAT Starvation limits the Pure's just a wee bit more.

You want Toughness Enhancements for say 50-80 more HP's? Get the actual feat... but you'll miss out on <insert other well needed Feat here>.

Of course Pure Paladins are gonna take the biggest hit IMO. There goes EXTEND, Power Attack, UMD, Intimidate, Force of Personality (for those nutjobs who actually think a Paladin needs it).


Anyway, although a little late.....it was coming and we all rode the wave. :cool:

Tharlak
01-23-2009, 11:16 AM
It has been said before but just wanted to add my voice.

This is EXACTLY the kind of communication that is needed. We need to hear about these changes that will impact MANY well in advance so folks can adapt prior to the release.

Thank you.

kingfisher
01-23-2009, 11:24 AM
]. There goes EXTEND, Power Attack, UMD, Intimidate, Force of Personality


yeah this is the worst part, losing out on either extend or power attack on a lot of builds. its a needed fix tho so gj for letting us know about it.

still does not count as a preview this week.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-23-2009, 11:38 AM
yeah this is the worst part, losing out on either extend or power attack on a lot of builds. its a needed fix tho so gj for letting us know about it.

still does not count as a preview this week.

Don't forget...as the cap moves to 20 we will get another feat...

kingfisher
01-23-2009, 11:43 AM
Don't forget...as the cap moves to 20 we will get another feat...

yeap the lvl 18 feat will make everything ok on all of my builds but one, and i deserve the feats starvation on that one (ranger/bard/barb)

DragonKiller
01-23-2009, 11:51 AM
In the upcoming module, there will be a change to the way the helmet Minos Legens functions:

Thanks for the advanced notice Eladrin! Knew it was coming, but glad to hear/see a dev actually confirm it prior to go live.

feynman
01-23-2009, 11:51 AM
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."

Thanks again, Turbine, I guess giving us advance warning counts as lubing us up before we get the shaft.

Of course, nobody seems to be asking why we have to take the shaft in the first place; what's up with that?

Laith
01-23-2009, 12:35 PM
Of course, nobody seems to be asking why we have to take the shaft in the first place; what's up with that?probably because they actually want people to take the toughness feat.

every time a feat is devalued in some way, classes/races that grant extra feats (wizards, fighters, humans) are made less useful, and other builds don't have to make tough decisions in what to take.

feynman
01-23-2009, 12:41 PM
probably because they actually want people to take the toughness feat.

every time a feat is devalued in some way, classes/races that grant extra feats (wizards, fighters, humans) are made less useful, and other builds don't have to make tough decisions in what to take.

And that's fine, but they keep making changes that amount to saying "HAHAHA! You get to reroll again!"

Couldn't they come up with fixes that would not ruin your build?

feynman
01-23-2009, 12:42 PM
That is a good question: Why must we take "the shaft" ?

Aren't there other ways to express oneself than through anal sex metaphors?

If "taking a lubed shaft" is not sufficiently disgusting then I'll try to take it a bit further for you:

Nurfing minos legions is like taking a giant thobbing veiny shaft!

Infraction points for the both of us I say.

Fine: It's worse than buying an american car!

Tanka
01-23-2009, 12:43 PM
And that's fine, but they keep making changes that amount to saying "HAHAHA! You get to reroll again!"

Couldn't they come up with fixes that would not ruin your build?
Losing a Toughness Feat granted from an item is going to ruin your build?

I hate to see what kind of gimp you're playing.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-23-2009, 12:48 PM
And that's fine, but they keep making changes that amount to saying "HAHAHA! You get to reroll again!"

Couldn't they come up with fixes that would not ruin your build?

If you have to reroll because they fixed an obviously broken item which accidentally gave you access to a handful of extra HP without taking a feat then the problem is not on Turbine's end but on a seriously broken build you designed.

Dexxaan
01-23-2009, 01:10 PM
probably because they actually want people to take the toughness feat.

every time a feat is devalued in some way, classes/races that grant extra feats (wizards, fighters, humans) are made less useful, and other builds don't have to make tough decisions in what to take.

I may be misunderstanding your post, but I´d say that evrytime a feat is given to the playerbase through an item (Like Minos), the classes & races that get bonus feats, Skill points, etc... get devalued.

having stated it this way, I applaude the change and people will have to start thinking and planning a bit if they want to be contenders for top builds.

Shake and bake is out da window.

Gunga
01-23-2009, 01:15 PM
It has been said before but just wanted to add my voice.

This is EXACTLY the kind of communication that is needed. We need to hear about these changes that will impact MANY well in advance so folks can adapt prior to the release.

Thank you.


No ****. Business as usual.

feynman
01-23-2009, 01:21 PM
If you have to reroll because they fixed an obviously broken item which accidentally gave you access to a handful of extra HP without taking a feat then the problem is not on Turbine's end but on a seriously broken build you designed.

It's called a "sorcerer". You might want to look it up some time.

Baranor
01-23-2009, 01:30 PM
looks like I saved 5 dragon shards for not using an obvious exploit in the first place

let the whining continue

Tanka
01-23-2009, 01:30 PM
It's called a "sorcerer". You might want to look it up some time.
Oh no, you've lost 20-40HP. However will you survive? :rolleyes:

feynman
01-23-2009, 01:34 PM
Oh no, you've lost 20-40HP. However will you survive? :rolleyes:

Yea, that's 25%; how would you feel trying to tank with a 250HP toon?

Dracolich
01-23-2009, 01:38 PM
I have a 15 sorc and I have managed to not exploit the Minos helm. I dont feel a bit bad for those that have and need to respec. You took advantage of an obvious bug and now they are fixing it. Suck it up its not game breaking.

Milolyen
01-23-2009, 01:46 PM
To all the winers ... They said a LONG time ago that the Minos Legen was NOT ment to grant you access to the toughness enhancement line so you should have known long before now that it would get changed eventually.

Sorry your going to get no sympathy from me.

Milolyen

Tanka
01-23-2009, 01:47 PM
Yea, that's 25%; how would you feel trying to tank with a 250HP toon?
What, exactly, are you tanking as a Sorc?

gaxpar
01-23-2009, 01:51 PM
So the helm that has been out since summer 2007 (mod 5) is gonna be fixed 4 mods after in 2009 ?

The abbott too wow the pilot is back in the plane?

Youg guys tought about fixing the ladders that are broken since mod 3 then ?

Good job on the heads up bad job on the 1.5 years without changing it .1.5 years to change something as trivial as the minos legend i guess it was too much coding .

feynman
01-23-2009, 01:52 PM
I have a 15 sorc and I have managed to not exploit the Minos helm. I dont feel a bit bad for those that have and need to respec. You took advantage of an obvious bug and now they are fixing it. Suck it up its not game breaking.

Exploit my a$$; they made it work that way, I built a character to use it, they change the rules. If a PnP DM did that, we would toss him out on his ear.

And if it is an "obvious bug," then why are they only getting around to fixing it 2 years later? Why hasn't anyone been banned for exploiting it? Why are they "fixing" it in such a heavy-handed way?

No, a reasonable fix would have been to make the toughness enhancement stop working when you took the helm off; supposition, but I would suggest that, since they are not doing that, they have another reason for the change.

If I had to guess, I would say that this is another attempt to "balance" casters against melee, since they screwed up the balance in the first place.

I'm supposed to thank them for that?

Lorien_the_First_One
01-23-2009, 02:01 PM
It's called a "sorcerer". You might want to look it up some time.

I have a L16 sorc with 2500ish favor (and she's drow, so HP impared from the start). I stand by what I said, if changing the helm breaks your build then your build was already gimped by your design.




Yea, that's 25%; how would you feel trying to tank with a 250HP toon?

If 20-40 HP are 25% of your total, you built it extremely poorly.

smatt
01-23-2009, 02:04 PM
It's called a "sorcerer". You might want to look it up some time.

Naw man, you see that is supposedto be the weakness of a Sorc... They trade allt hat mana, and fast casting times, for low HP. ..... It was broken in the ifrst place.....


I think this is giving a bit back to the fighters and barbs..... The other classes had to many feats, and too many HP's. It's nto THAT big of a deal really..... At worst a build looses 20 or so HP, or that extra feat they're gettign at level 18......

Milolyen
01-23-2009, 02:05 PM
Exploit my a$$; they made it work that way, I built a character to use it, they change the rules. If a PnP DM did that, we would toss him out on his ear.

And if it is an "obvious bug," then why are they only getting around to fixing it 2 years later? Why hasn't anyone been banned for exploiting it? Why are they "fixing" it in such a heavy-handed way?

No, a reasonable fix would have been to make the toughness enhancement stop working when you took the helm off; supposition, but I would suggest that, since they are not doing that, they have another reason for the change.

If I had to guess, I would say that this is another attempt to "balance" casters against melee, since they screwed up the balance in the first place.

I'm supposed to thank them for that?

LMAO ... Actually they said from the second we found out that the Minos Legen allowed people without the actual toughness feat access to the toughness enhancements that it would eventually get fixed so if you built a char around it then you only have yourself to blame.


So the helm that has been out since summer 2007 (mod 5) is gonna be fixed 4 mods after in 2009 ?

The abbott too wow the pilot is back in the plane?

Youg guys tought about fixing the ladders that are broken since mod 3 then ?

Good job on the heads up bad job on the 1.5 years without changing it .1.5 years to change something as trivial as the minos legend i guess it was too much coding .

Hmmm Mabye it took 1.5 years to get fixed because it was low on the priority list of things to fix? If I remember correctly each of the last two mods had ladder fixes in them along with other bug fixes. Then where the ladder bugs are concerned they asked a couple different times to report any ladders that are still broke so they can put in a fix for it. They don't have infinite resources or time to create fixes for everything in the game so some will take longer than others.

Milolyen

Tanka
01-23-2009, 02:06 PM
Exploit my a$$; they made it work that way, I built a character to use it, they change the rules. If a PnP DM did that, we would toss him out on his ear.

And if it is an "obvious bug," then why are they only getting around to fixing it 2 years later? Why hasn't anyone been banned for exploiting it? Why are they "fixing" it in such a heavy-handed way?

No, a reasonable fix would have been to make the toughness enhancement stop working when you took the helm off; supposition, but I would suggest that, since they are not doing that, they have another reason for the change.

If I had to guess, I would say that this is another attempt to "balance" casters against melee, since they screwed up the balance in the first place.

I'm supposed to thank them for that?

Racial toughness is fine. It's Minos Legens that has a problem. We know about it, and you can expect the 'Toughness' feat provided by Minos Legens to be changed in such a way that it no longer allows you to take enhancements that require that feat in a future release.
We knew back in November for certain it would happen. The Devs had also stated prior to then that it was an unintentional bug based on the way the Legens behaved.

Congrats, you abused an item that was not working as intended. It's now being fixed. Think of the 3 AP you have back.

feynman
01-23-2009, 02:13 PM
I have a L16 sorc with 2500ish favor (and she's drow, so HP impared from the start). I stand by what I said, if changing the helm breaks your build then your build was already gimped by your design.

Yea, I'm a drow, as well, 12 starting con; the extra hp from minos legens was one of the key pieces of equipment that makes the build work.




If 20-40 HP are 25% of your total, you built it extremely poorly.

Sorry, I haven't run shroud 800 times this month to get my greensteel codpiece.

kingfisher
01-23-2009, 02:15 PM
Yea, that's 25%; how would you feel trying to tank with a 250HP toon?

funniest thing i have heard all day

Tanka
01-23-2009, 02:17 PM
Yea, I'm a drow, as well, 12 starting con; the extra hp from minos legens was one of the key pieces of equipment that makes the build work.
Makes it work? Right, OK.


Sorry, I haven't run shroud 800 times this month to get my greensteel codpiece.
My Sorc won't have the 45HP item. I might make a Min2 Helmet just to dump the Legens (another 25HP and two Stoneskin clickies), but that's questionable.

Hordo
01-23-2009, 02:20 PM
I so cannot be bothered by folks who exploited this while knowing for MONTHS that this bug was going to be fixed...we just didn't know when and now they start whining? Is it time to dial Whine-1-1 and get the Waaaambulance?

feynman
01-23-2009, 02:21 PM
Makes it work? Right, OK.
AE solo build; lots of HP to live while kiting. Do you actually play this game?



My Sorc won't have the 45HP item. I might make a Min2 Helmet just to dump the Legens (another 25HP and two Stoneskin clickies), but that's questionable.

Well, I wasn't going to make the helm, but I guess I am now; 3 months from now, I'll have my HP again. Yay turbine.

feynman
01-23-2009, 02:23 PM
I so cannot be bothered by folks who exploited this while knowing for MONTHS that this bug was going to be fixed...we just didn't know when and now they start whining? Is it time to dial Whine-1-1 and get the Waaaambulance?

Or maybe I could buy you a new collar, since you are obviously a GM pet?

Lorien_the_First_One
01-23-2009, 02:25 PM
Sorry, I haven't run shroud 800 times this month to get my greensteel codpiece.

no greensteel HP for me either... You don't need it. GFL and con 6 or con5 and +1 tome are affordable options for HP. If you want the toughness ehancement, take the feat.

feynman
01-23-2009, 02:27 PM
no greensteel HP for me either... You don't need it. GFL and con 6 or con5 and +1 tome aer affordable options for HP.

Yea, have those, takes me to ~150 hp.

Hordo
01-23-2009, 02:27 PM
Or maybe I could buy you a new collar, since you are obviously a GM pet?

GM pet? I'm fairly certain my recent infraction points might refute that...and perhaps all my diatribes against the bullschlacha we keep being fed by the GMs. But, let's just put it this way, I actually have no problem if they kept it this way...it's just that they did tell us and for those dishonest enough to claim not to know or to whine about it's being corrected have no possibility of respect from me.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-23-2009, 02:32 PM
Yea, have those, takes me to ~150 hp.

You should have more than that with the helm on.

And if you want more...once again, take the feat. The rest of us managed to figure out how to make our chars work while taking that feat if we wanted the HP.

Tanka
01-23-2009, 02:34 PM
Yea, have those, takes me to ~150 hp.
What, didn't put any points into Con at chargen?

Mine is at 20 Con with IFL -- sitting at 130HP at L10.

You broke your own build.

feynman
01-23-2009, 02:43 PM
GM pet? I'm fairly certain my recent infraction points might refute that...and perhaps all my diatribes against the bullschlacha we keep being fed by the GMs. But, let's just put it this way, I actually have no problem if they kept it this way...it's just that they did tell us and for those dishonest enough to claim not to know or to whine about it's being corrected have no possibility of respect from me.

^
|
Has been gone for 3 months!

But let's put it this way: Even if I had been on when they announced the change, is there any evidence to suggest that the devs listen to anything the playerbase has to say? The next argument is obviously "Well, then why say anything at all?", but that's missing the point.

The point is that this seems to be nothing more than a backhanded way to balance feat-poor classes, which they intentionally unbalanced to begin with! If all they wanted to do was fix the bug, there are simpler, better ways to do it.

Sorry, you said something about "dishonesty"?

Baranor
01-23-2009, 02:50 PM
Yea, have those, takes me to ~150 hp.

16*4+20+10+30+20(helm)=144

sounds like a base 6 con, nice build

feynman
01-23-2009, 02:50 PM
You should have more than that with the helm on.

And if you want more...once again, take the feat. The rest of us managed to figure out how to make our chars work while taking that feat if we wanted the HP.

With the helm, I get close to 200, and my feats are max, emp, MT, spell pen, and FoP; which of those can I live without? (hint: the answer is not "max," "emp," "MT," "spell pen," or "FoP.")

It's fantastic that your build wasn't based on the helm; what are you going to say when they decide to "balance" whatever it is that makes your sorc exceptional, if he is?

feynman
01-23-2009, 02:51 PM
16*4+20+10+30+20(helm)=144

sounds like a base 6 con, nice build

That's without the helm; RTFM FTW.

bobbryan2
01-23-2009, 02:53 PM
With the helm, I get close to 200, and my feats are max, emp, MT, spell pen, and FoP; which of those can I live without? (hint: the answer is not "max," "emp," "MT," "spell pen," or "FoP.")

It's fantastic that your build wasn't based on the helm; what are you going to say when they decide to "balance" whatever it is that makes your sorc exceptional, if he is?

If you're a caster, there are no STATS you can live without other than con and cha.

But since you asked, I would put more HP as far more important than FoP... and MT is an absolute waste, and I'd take anything over it.

Hordo
01-23-2009, 02:54 PM
If all they wanted to do was fix the bug, there are simpler, better ways to do it.

What could be easier than what they are doing now? Fix it so that it is as intended. Granted, they told us they would be fixing it within weeks of it's being put in the game and it has taken them this long to do it...so really the only thing they could have done better is do it earlier. Either way, it is being done, they are making good so stop whining.

I'm glad you are back after 3 months away. Have some fun, fix your build so that you aren't dependent upon feats/enhancements garnered from a known-from-inception bug/exploit that is now being fixed.

The dishonesty comment wasn't directed at you, but at folks who are whining because their intentionally-exploit-ridden-builds are now being nerfed. I'm pretty sure you would agree with me that intentionally exploiting is dishonest at best.

smatt
01-23-2009, 02:55 PM
^
|
Has been gone for 3 months!

But let's put it this way: Even if I had been on when they announced the change, is there any evidence to suggest that the devs listen to anything the playerbase has to say? The next argument is obviously "Well, then why say anything at all?", but that's missing the point.

The point is that this seems to be nothing more than a backhanded way to balance feat-poor classes, which they intentionally unbalanced to begin with! If all they wanted to do was fix the bug, there are simpler, better ways to do it.

Sorry, you said something about "dishonesty"?




Hmm, I seem to remember them talking about his for a very long time.... But in any case if you have that fw HP, well all I can say is UH OH......

feynman
01-23-2009, 03:07 PM
What could be easier than what they are doing now? Fix it so that it is as intended. Granted, they told us they would be fixing it within weeks of it's being put in the game and it has taken them this long to do it...so really the only thing they could have done better is do it earlier. Either way, it is being done, they are making good so stop whining.
Make the enhancements stop working if you take off the helm.

"As intended" doesn't mean anything; how did this work in PnP?



I'm glad you are back after 3 months away. Have some fun, fix your build so that you aren't dependent upon feats/enhancements garnered from a known-from-inception bug/exploit that is now being fixed.
If I reroll this character, I'm rolling a Mirdain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkfall#Mirdain_.28Forest_Elves.29).



The dishonesty comment wasn't directed at you, but at folks who are whining because their intentionally-exploit-ridden-builds are now being nerfed. I'm pretty sure you would agree with me that intentionally exploiting is dishonest at best.

Actually, I have to disagree with you; exploits should be fixed promptly. If they are being abused, then that is the devs fault, not the players; if they don't like it, they can fix it. Instead, they're acting like whiny 12-year-old dungeon masters whose dungeon wasn't as tricky as they thought it was, so they blue-bolt the entire party. Color me unimpressed.

In this example, it's even simpler: This build predated the announcement of the "bug" fix. So now, I have 4 level 16 characters: a cleric (OK, 28 point build), a fighter/ranger/rogue (excellent), a monk (awful, they'd better do druids better), and this sorc (fantastic now, not so hot after the change). Basically, I'm batting 1 for 4; not bad for a farm team, but hardly major league, and only b/c of this nonsense.

bobbryan2
01-23-2009, 03:11 PM
In this example, it's even simpler: This build predated the announcement of the "bug" fix. So now, I have 4 level 16 characters: a cleric (OK, 28 point build), a fighter/ranger/rogue (excellent), a monk (awful, they'd better do druids better), and this sorc (fantastic now, not so hot after the change). Basically, I'm batting 1 for 4; not bad for a farm team, but hardly major league, and only b/c of this nonsense.

Switch mental toughness out for toughness... or reroll and put a minimum of 14-15 in your con.

Baranor
01-23-2009, 03:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorien the First One
no greensteel HP for me either... You don't need it. GFL and con 6 or con5 and +1 tome aer affordable options for HP.

Yea, have those, takes me to ~150 hp.


That's without the helm; RTFM FTW.

actually helm has to be assumed or you wouldn't be complaining

Tanka
01-23-2009, 03:13 PM
With the helm, I get close to 200, and my feats are max, emp, MT, spell pen, and FoP; which of those can I live without? (hint: the answer is not "max," "emp," "MT," "spell pen," or "FoP.")

It's fantastic that your build wasn't based on the helm; what are you going to say when they decide to "balance" whatever it is that makes your sorc exceptional, if he is?
MT and FoP? Hilarious.

feynman
01-23-2009, 03:14 PM
actually helm has to be assumed or you wouldn't be complaining

Then read the post! I have ~150 w/o helm, close to 200 with. It's not that difficult.

feynman
01-23-2009, 03:14 PM
MT and FoP? Hilarious.

Yea, funny? Two of the best feats in the game, and you're dissing. Buh-bye.

Tanka
01-23-2009, 03:18 PM
Yea, funny? Two of the best feats in the game, and you're dissing. Buh-bye.
How many SP does MT give you? Right, a negligible amount.

MT is good for some Wizards. There are far better feats (like your ever-so-needed Toughness) to take than MT.

I have FoP on my Fighter. My Sorc won't take it at all.

feynman
01-23-2009, 03:19 PM
Switch mental toughness out for toughness... or reroll and put a minimum of 14-15 in your con.

If I switch either, it will be FoP; I have actually been debating whether to switch it for IMT.

bobbryan2
01-23-2009, 03:20 PM
Yea, funny? Two of the best feats in the game, and you're dissing. Buh-bye.

You're upset... that's fine.

But mental toughness is not important for sorcerers. Especially sorcerers that thought it was a good idea to use con as a dump stat.

feynman
01-23-2009, 03:25 PM
How many SP does MT give you? Right, a negligible amount.

85 SP is negligible?



MT is good for some Wizards. There are far better feats (like your ever-so-needed Toughness) to take than MT.

Yea, and heighten was already on the list; one more feat to agonize over.



I have FoP on my Fighter. My Sorc won't take it at all.

Anyone else notice how many mobs in the new zones like to cast greater command?

feynman
01-23-2009, 03:28 PM
You're upset... that's fine.

But mental toughness is not important for sorcerers. Especially sorcerers that thought it was a good idea to use con as a dump stat.

Who uses con as a dump stat?

bobbryan2
01-23-2009, 03:29 PM
85 SP is negligible?


Let's see... I'm at 2345 right now without it... (not even maxed out enhancements or even maxed charisma)... and... 85 would be 3.6% increase.

Vs

38 HP into 150... a 25% increase.

feynman
01-23-2009, 03:31 PM
Let's see... I'm at 2345 right now without it... (not even maxed out enhancements or even maxed charisma)... and... 85 would be 3.6% increase.

Vs

38 HP into 150... a 25% increase.

That's nice, but not everyone has the greensteel chastity belt; I'm 400 SP short of you. Granted, percentage-wise, it still comes out different, but you have to weight them differently, too: Given a choice between losing half your SP or half your HP, which would you take?

Tanka
01-23-2009, 03:31 PM
85 SP is negligible?
Compared to the extra HP that you claim will break your build?


Yea, and heighten was already on the list; one more feat to agonize over.
lol


Anyone else notice how many mobs in the new zones like to cast greater command?
Not many, all in all.


Who uses con as a dump stat?
What's your Con, since you claim losing 20HP is going to kill your build?

feynman
01-23-2009, 03:42 PM
Not many, all in all.

Enough that I noticed it when I swapped out FoP last time; beyond that, I don't have to worry about fear, etc as much as others, or use up a slot on an item.



What's your Con, since you claim losing 20HP is going to kill your build?

Base 12, +6 item. And if it were only 20 HP, then I would be OK, but it's closer to 40 (18 + 10 + 10). All that for 3 APs that would be spent on useless enhancements otherwise.

Instead, I get to spend another zillion plat re-gearing since the minos is worthless, now.

Tanka
01-23-2009, 03:44 PM
Enough that I noticed it when I swapped out FoP last time; beyond that, I don't have to worry about fear, etc as much as others, or use up a slot on an item.
There's this spell called Greater Heroism. It makes you immune to all Fear effects, and also adds 4 to all saves.


Base 12, +6 item. And if it were only 20 HP, then I would be OK, but it's closer to 40 (18 + 10 + 10). All that for 3 APs that would be spent on useless enhancements otherwise.

Instead, I get to spend another zillion plat re-gearing since the minos is worthless, now.
You still get 20HP from the Legens. You just don't get to spend 3AP to get another 20HP out of it.

Also; Legens is not worthless. Far from, in fact. Up until you craft a Mineral 2 item (which, btw, stacks with the Legens as-is), it's one of the best helms in the game.

feynman
01-23-2009, 04:55 PM
There's this spell called Greater Heroism. It makes you immune to all Fear effects, and also adds 4 to all saves.

So now I have to swap out a level 6 spell; ever hear of infinite regression?



You still get 20HP from the Legens. You just don't get to spend 3AP to get another 20HP out of it.

Also; Legens is not worthless. Far from, in fact. Up until you craft a Mineral 2 item (which, btw, stacks with the Legens as-is), it's one of the best helms in the game.

No, 38 HP was good, 20 is not worth wasting the head slot on; granted that most of the other helmets suck, too, but I could take a 6 cha helm and get a decent cloak. My plan was to keep the minos and get a 6 cha GS weapon, but now that's hosed as well.

Tanka
01-23-2009, 05:04 PM
So now I have to swap out a level 6 spell; ever hear of infinite regression?
Scrolls. They last 11 minutes.


No, 38 HP was good, 20 is not worth wasting the head slot on; granted that most of the other helmets suck, too, but I could take a 6 cha helm and get a decent cloak. My plan was to keep the minos and get a 6 cha GS weapon, but now that's hosed as well.
Min2 Helm
Cha 9 GS weapon
Reaver's Napkin

I mean, sure, it'll take 24 larges to make the helm. Until then, Legens FTW.

Yurtrus
01-23-2009, 05:08 PM
OMG! Call a Whambulance!

The imaginary rescue vehicle that will rescue you from someone's incessant whining over a trivial matter. Used mockingly, but in good humor.

Get iT! Good!

TFPAQ
01-23-2009, 06:33 PM
**** and Moan sounds like you should be the founder ...


grow up and move on ... sheesh ....

feynman
01-23-2009, 07:48 PM
**** and Moan sounds like you should be the founder ...


grow up and move on ... sheesh ....

That's the first good idea I've heard yet; moving on.

Darkfall is sounding better and better.

query
01-23-2009, 10:03 PM
Can I have your stuff?

(I called it first folks!)

Gee, let me give the same reply I gave for all those who were told eventually evasion would not work in heavy armor or medium armor *pulls out world's smallest violin and plays for the Batme....sorcerer.*

Somehow when they mentioned this for 9+ months (both things) nobody complained about an OBVIOUS exploit until it was FIXED.

And even with my bonus feats, my wiz takes things like MT, IMT and the usual suspects of metamagic feats. Also, since he is multiclassed (making him gimped of course by many people's opinion already) he's not at 100% casting level yet got only 4 HP more.

No GS item at all dealing w HP, same GFL and +6 item, and he has 220 HP before buffs.

Gee, he even wore the Totem helm instead back in the day before his GS wizardry helm was used.

So, I have as much sympathy for this as I did for the evasion which was, "Vital to save the HP loss and will now mean the death of my build."

Yeah, you're ruined.


Tell ya what:

I can even TANK with my mighty 220 HP and buffs. Some spells i even can use from scrolls.

When you are actually fighting the bosses if your magic isn't good enough (mine's fine I just do variety,) THEN MAYBE I'll be concerned.

Oh, did I mention he's a 28 point build unlike the free stat points you got minus the con?

The issue is just like those who claim X is the only way to win Y raid and if you don't have X, you can't play.

Funny how we prove them wrong there too.


But enjoy Darkfall, as I'm sure they NEVER have any bugs, fix things promply and their combat system is superior.....just like AOC was going to be.


Okay, since I'm done here, I think I'll go back to yet ANOTHER non-1750 favor server and see if i can make 400 favor for my Drow pure pallie build....which must be DOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!!! because of the con hit and ("obviously") I rely on "NO tactics...... "


Oh and in no way are we saying we're superior or fanbois of the company,

we just learn to prepare for plan B before plan A stops working...especially if announced for about 9 months...6 months for you and your vacation.

That's the first good idea I've heard yet; moving on.

Darkfall is sounding better and better.

Treerat
01-23-2009, 11:43 PM
Can I have your stuff?

(I called it first folks!)

Gee, let me give the same reply I gave for all those who were told eventually evasion would not work in heavy armor or medium armor *pulls out world's smallest violin and plays for the Batme....sorcerer.*

Somehow when they mentioned this for 9+ months (both things) nobody complained about an OBVIOUS exploit until it was FIXED.

It wasn't the evasion change that gutted Batmen-style builds; most took a 13 dex for Dodge, +1 tome and +6 item let us use a mithril BP for a loss of 1 AC while still having Evasion. It was the changes to the enhancement system that shifted level breaks, removed some key enhancements, and the inflation of mob to-hit and damage that shelved most of us.

Oh and for those still butt-hurt about that type of character: the only "specialty" of a Batman was intimidate-tanking via AC (ie making you sp-sponges actually look semi-competent). A rogue who didn't try to make due on 12 int after items could easily equal (if not surpass) their trap finding/ disarming, lock picking, and UMD skills. A melee with a focus on damage could do more damage, and a caster was better at whatever their specialty was. The Batman was effective because he could fill whatever gap was in the group, and was a walking "oh D20 gods save us!" button.

And yes I'm happy to see that this long-standing bug is finally going to be put to rest. Pity people were warned though. I would have savored the screams of all the self righteous hypocrites when their precious barbarian with crit rage two ended up losing that because of they were abusing a bug.

Angelus_dead
01-23-2009, 11:50 PM
It wasn't the evasion change that gutted Batmen-style builds; most took a 13 dex for Dodge, +1 tome and +6 item let us use a mithril BP for a loss of 1 AC while still having Evasion. It was the changes to the enhancement system that shifted level breaks, removed some key enhancements, and the inflation of mob to-hit and damage that shelved most of us.
More specifically, it was that when the level cap went up past 10, it became possible to have Ran9 Evasion in a build along with a couple other splashed levels (like pal2 or monk1). The ranger class didn't work powerfully until level 12 (because it couldn't get GTWF).

Capn
01-24-2009, 12:02 AM
For those concerned about not having enough feats to pick up toughness, remember that you'll get a new feat at level 18.

Yaga_Nub
01-24-2009, 12:09 AM
For those concerned about not having enough feats to pick up toughness, remember that you'll get a new feat at level 18.

Maybe sooner depending on your class/multi-class breakdown.

Lehrman
01-24-2009, 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by feynman
Base 12, +6 item. And if it were only 20 HP, then I would be OK, but it's closer to 40 (18 + 10 + 10). All that for 3 APs that would be spent on useless enhancements otherwise.


If I am reading this right your HPs should be sitting at about 198 post fix. 208 if u get your 150 argo favor.

198 = 20 (base for all lvl1s) +64 (sorc levels) +64 (con bonus) + 20 (Minos post-fix) + 30 (Greater False life)

Minos tome is -18 hps to your current total -20 from lost enhancements, then +20 from the redesigned minos helm that has been announced to stack with EVERYTHING.

If 18 hit points is enough for you to want to quit the game, then by all means don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-24-2009, 12:46 AM
With the helm, I get close to 200, and my feats are max, emp, MT, spell pen, and FoP; which of those can I live without? (hint: the answer is not "max," "emp," "MT," "spell pen," or "FoP.")

It's fantastic that your build wasn't based on the helm; what are you going to say when they decide to "balance" whatever it is that makes your sorc exceptional, if he is?

No one feat or feature can make or break a decent build. MT is a good example of a feat that isn't critical, most sorcs have more SP than they use in most situations. Given that the game is less of a nukefest than it used to be, you could also chose either max or emp. You could also live with 200 HP - which should really be enough anyway in most situations.


85 SP is negligible?

Yes, it is. You should be sitting at a minimum of 2400 without it. It might add one or two casts at best, it should rarely matter. Staying alive matters more.


Who uses con as a dump stat?

With a con of 12, you pretty much did.


That's nice, but not everyone has the greensteel chastity belt; I'm 400 SP short of you. Granted, percentage-wise, it still comes out different, but you have to weight them differently, too: Given a choice between losing half your SP or half your HP, which would you take?

Something is wrong with your build... GS doesn't generate anything close to 400SP, although you seem to have a hate on for it as you blame GS for everything. Do you not have any SP items on you? Not even a magi item?




So now I have to swap out a level 6 spell; ever hear of infinite regression?

Ever hear of scrolls?



No, 38 HP was good, 20 is not worth wasting the head slot on; granted that most of the other helmets suck, too, but I could take a 6 cha helm and get a decent cloak. My plan was to keep the minos and get a 6 cha GS weapon, but now that's hosed as well.

The helm gives you 18HP AND greater fort, which is a must have in some slot anyway. Aside from rare items, this is your best fort item available.

query
01-24-2009, 01:02 AM
where they censor people for posting things like "loving locks" trying to donate hair for Lukemia Kids?

Sounds like a friendly move.

EKKM
01-24-2009, 01:18 AM
Actually, I have to disagree with you; exploits should be fixed promptly. If they are being abused, then that is the devs fault, not the players; if they don't like it, they can fix it. Instead, they're acting like whiny 12-year-old dungeon masters whose dungeon wasn't as tricky as they thought it was, so they blue-bolt the entire party. Color me unimpressed.

.

the underlined sentence seems to contradict your diatribe...

Desteria
01-24-2009, 03:20 AM
Makes it work? Right, OK.


My Sorc won't have the 45HP item. I might make a Min2 Helmet just to dump the Legens (another 25HP and two Stoneskin clickies), but that's questionable.

bah I'v shown you how to get the minos and a +45 shroud item you will only lose 2 points of concentration over your +15 con ring.

Desteria
01-24-2009, 03:24 AM
But let's put it this way: Even if I had been on when they announced the change, is there any evidence to suggest that the devs listen to anything the playerbase has to say? The next argument is obviously "Well, then why say anything at all?", but that's missing the point.


yes see frensied beserker, the dev's made changes to that PRC for barbs that appear to be based on exacly what players said about it favoring barbs useign very no barb weapon types, i belive hte change implemented is actuly excaly the same as oen of the player suggestions!!!

Desteria
01-24-2009, 03:28 AM
With the helm, I get close to 200, and my feats are max, emp, MT, spell pen, and FoP; which of those can I live without? (hint: the answer is not "max," "emp," "MT," "spell pen," or "FoP.")

It's fantastic that your build wasn't based on the helm; what are you going to say when they decide to "balance" whatever it is that makes your sorc exceptional, if he is?

A drow sorc and you have MT..... thats oen feat that shoudl be swaped
FoP on a drow shoudl also be swaped you have soem nice racial bonuses to will saves any way.....

Of course they both shoudl have bene Extend and GTR spell pen...

The the question would be out of Extend, Emp, Max, Spell pen, GTR spell pen what shoudl you drop and tbh then i woudl be HARD pressed to answere. I would havce to say yay humans, they can aford it giving drow the short stick on HP but then that makes sense, mroe HP less cha = human less hp more cha = drow.

Quick note the aboev was also only 5 feats the 6th should be highten, you get 6 feats at current cap.

Desteria
01-24-2009, 03:33 AM
Yea, funny? Two of the best feats in the game, and you're dissing. Buh-bye.

MT is an utterly usless feat for a sorc just about EVERY other remnotly caster feat is better then it!!!!!!!!!!!!

see the various posts in the sorc forms for explinations on this.

Desteria
01-24-2009, 03:39 AM
85 SP is negligible?



Yea, and heighten was already on the list; one more feat to agonize over.



Anyone else notice how many mobs in the new zones like to cast greater command?

Yes 85 SP is 2 SPELLLS

Extend saves you that mainy SP after 9 castings of levle 3 + spells (haste displacment, fireshild) or after 1-2 casts of a emped maxed WoF.

YOu listed 5 feats you shoudl have 6 feats, and you should have highten aws well.

yes BUT betwene your natural drow will bonuses and a strong will save class, and G-hero, and nightsheild(or a resist item), your will save will still be plenty strong, frankly i find it;s the commit falls that are more of a problem.

Desteria
01-24-2009, 03:40 AM
Who uses con as a dump stat?

MY srow paladin when the cap was level 10 and Paladin AC+saves+ self cast resist buffs made you untouchable, he has a 9 starting con... hes still over 350 hp now!

Desteria
01-24-2009, 03:46 AM
So now I have to swap out a level 6 spell; ever hear of infinite regression?



No, 38 HP was good, 20 is not worth wasting the head slot on; granted that most of the other helmets suck, too, but I could take a 6 cha helm and get a decent cloak. My plan was to keep the minos and get a 6 cha GS weapon, but now that's hosed as well.

LEvel 6 spell or SCROLLS that last 11 misn OR planer grids that last 11 mins.....

20 hp AND HEAVY FORT.... don't tell me your not planing to have no heavy fort item or wase another slot on a heavy for item!!!!!

Borror0
01-24-2009, 04:04 AM
This may come off as a stupid question but... why do you guys give him any attention?

Desteria
01-24-2009, 05:58 AM
This may come off as a stupid question but... why do you guys give him any attention?

because I worry other players, newer players will read his posts and think he has good ideas abotu what feats are good and take the same ones thus reducing the avalible pool of better sorcs to fill my grousp when i need to pug out a few spots.

I realize hes purty much beyond all hope of salvage but other arnt yet so i argue for there sakes.

Borror0
01-24-2009, 06:09 AM
because I worry other players, newer players will read his posts and think he has good ideas abotu what feats are good and take the same ones thus reducing the avalible pool of better sorcs to fill my grousp when i need to pug out a few spots.
Oh, that's the reason I argue about with beyond salvation as well.

But, I think that if a new player still thinks he has a good idea, the new player might be beyond salvation as well at this point.

Desteria
01-24-2009, 06:29 AM
Oh, that's the reason I argue about with beyond salvation as well.

But, I think that if a new player still thinks he has a good idea, the new player might be beyond salvation as well at this point.

True but most fo the post happened while i was on my day off soo I didnt; get to replie till the end, and i just had to get in on it sicne it was stuf fi fell strongly about :)

feynman
01-24-2009, 09:37 AM
because I worry other players, newer players will read his posts and think he has good ideas abotu what feats are good and take the same ones thus reducing the avalible pool of better sorcs to fill my grousp when i need to pug out a few spots.

I realize hes purty much beyond all hope of salvage but other arnt yet so i argue for there sakes.

Yea, there's a reason TA doesn't get many good players in their PUGs; no offense to the couple of good players in the guild.

In the meantime, if you have an argument other than "I know better than you, nyah-nyah!", then bring it; otherwise, keep your insults to yourself or join Boring0 on ignore.

Desteria
01-24-2009, 09:51 AM
Yea, there's a reason TA doesn't get many good players in their PUGs; no offense to the couple of good players in the guild.

In the meantime, if you have an argument other than "I know better than you, nyah-nyah!", then bring it; otherwise, keep your insults to yourself or join Boring0 on ignore.

um ok if your goign to be callign out my guild, I'll ask you to state your character and guild as well, and the we can discuss that, but from my experance AND i was the main raid leader for a good year, filling guild raids with pugs, I had a tone of pugs sending me tells as soon as my lfm's went up, and tones of complements fro a smoth and succefull and cheap raids, our rule for VoD elite was no clerics should NOT have to use pots unlike half the vod normal pugs i see that always needed them.


See my posts above, where i tear MT a new one I give a detailed break down and have on other ocation how for eg. extend saves you more the 85 SP in no time at all.
Check out the sorc forms there are toens of my arguments backed by numbers in there for what MT/IMT are abotu the 2 most usless feats a sorc cna take.

feynman
01-24-2009, 09:55 AM
the underlined sentence seems to contradict your diatribe...

How so? It's really simple: You cannot hold players accountable for the developers' mistakes. Off-hand, I can think of a dozen better ways to handle situations like this than the way they do, if their goal was truly to "stop exploits," starting with allowing public discussion of things that aren't working right and ending with adding walls to block exploit spots until they figure out how to fix them.

Instead, they're using it as an opportunity to reign in "overpowered" classes; worse, it seems like they are intentionally delaying the fixes so that they will be available the next time they screw up the balance.

Again, why is the solution not to simply make the enhancement HP go away when you take off the helm?

vainangel
01-24-2009, 09:58 AM
thank the gods

i thought that was a BIG oversight in the implementation of the helm

Desteria
01-24-2009, 10:00 AM
How so? It's really simple: You cannot hold players accountable for the developers' mistakes. Off-hand, I can think of a dozen better ways to handle situations like this than the way they do, if their goal was truly to "stop exploits," starting with allowing public discussion of things that aren't working right and ending with adding walls to block exploit spots until they figure out how to fix them.

Instead, they're using it as an opportunity to reign in "overpowered" classes; worse, it seems like they are intentionally delaying the fixes so that they will be available the next time they screw up the balance.

Again, why is the solution not to simply make the enhancement HP go away when you take off the helm?

Becasue that requies major changes to the games base code, which = possiblites for massive bugs, (game imploding bugs), and problems + huge lag spikes every tiem any oen swaps items to check though all the AP's etc... this fix is a change to one item, to how it grants HP, and basicaly has no change to case game impoding bugs, or any lag.

Aspenor
01-24-2009, 10:20 AM
Wow, somebody is complaining about a fix that everybody has known will take place for months and months?

Go figure. People will always find something to cry about.

Aspenor
01-24-2009, 10:24 AM
Again, why is the solution not to simply make the enhancement HP go away when you take off the helm?

Because the helm was never meant to allow access to the enhancements in the first place. In DDO, items do not allow access to feats, nor enhancements. Minos Legens was the only notable exception. Eladrin clearly stated months ago that this was not intended, and that those utilizing the bug might be disappointed with the results when the fix goes live.

At least he's giving us a warning, so people that want to can take the toughness feat. People's characters could theoretically have been irreversibly broken if the fix didn't go in 100% smoothly.

Be honest with yourself, if you're so dependent on the 20 hit points from the enhancements that the helm currently offers, your build was gimped before and will remain so.

feynman
01-24-2009, 10:28 AM
No one feat or feature can make or break a decent build. MT is a good example of a feat that isn't critical, most sorcs have more SP than they use in most situations. Given that the game is less of a nukefest than it used to be, you could also chose either max or emp. You could also live with 200 HP - which should really be enough anyway in most situations.

Maybe after I get 4 GS items and an inventory full of raid loot, but not all of us play 8 hours a day. And I only hit 200 HP with the helm and all the enhancements, but the difference in survivability is significant.



Yes, it is. You should be sitting at a minimum of 2400 without it. It might add one or two casts at best, it should rarely matter. Staying alive matters more.
85 SP = 3 PKs

This is often meaningful in the sense of "staying alive". In any case, if I had 2400 SP, it might be different, but I only top 2k w/ MT. Again, after I get the GS codpiece, things may be different.



With a con of 12, you pretty much did.
Started with:

STR 10
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 20

The only dump stat there is WIS, unless you are using "dump stat" in the sense of "You didn't buy a stack of +2 tomes for your character," in which case, we are talking at cross-purposes.




Something is wrong with your build... GS doesn't generate anything close to 400SP, although you seem to have a hate on for it as you blame GS for everything. Do you not have any SP items on you? Not even a magi item?
1. Triple positive GS item with all SP should give 600 SP, no? Wiz VI + 50 + 100 = 300 x 2 = 600
2. Currently using Wiz V ring; best I can reasonably afford until GS
3. Have 8 GS items on other toons, but also went broke making them, especially for my monk; ingredients aren't cheap and, again, some of us have lives.




Ever hear of scrolls?
Ever hear of people that don't spend all day loot farming? So far, all the recommendations amount to "You should be spending 60 hours a week grinding loot!"





The helm gives you 18HP AND greater fort, which is a must have in some slot anyway. Aside from rare items, this is your best fort item available.
Heavy fort robes and rings are all over the place. In the short run, I can use a 6 cha helm, switch out my cloak, etc, but it's still going to suck.

Basically, everyone here is saying that, because I do not live in game and built my sorc based on the rules in effect at the time, that I will have to reroll; but when does that end? Am I doomed to playing gimped "balance" builds just so I will be immune to the future whims of the devs? If so, there are other games coming out. That's all I'm saying.

feynman
01-24-2009, 10:57 AM
um ok if your goign to be callign out my guild, I'll ask you to state your character and guild as well, and the we can discuss that, but from my experance AND i was the main raid leader for a good year, filling guild raids with pugs, I had a tone of pugs sending me tells as soon as my lfm's went up, and tones of complements fro a smoth and succefull and cheap raids, our rule for VoD elite was no clerics should NOT have to use pots unlike half the vod normal pugs i see that always needed them.

Not interested in upping the server drama, thanks; it's nothing personal, I just happened to notice some time ago that certain guilds had a disproportionate number of people on my "do not group with list" for various flaws in their play style, and yours is one of them. As it is, I am not the only one who avoids your PUGs, but if you are doing well, more power to you.

If you insist, however, you can ask about Kisandre/Kindre/Tawndre/Ludia with Deathwatch Guard.



See my posts above, where i tear MT a new one I give a detailed break down and have on other ocation how for eg. extend saves you more the 85 SP in no time at all.
Check out the sorc forms there are toens of my arguments backed by numbers in there for what MT/IMT are abotu the 2 most usless feats a sorc cna take.

1. That's why I already have extend, although your breakdown is flawed; I'm not spending the rest of the afternoon doing math, though.
2. By your logic, anything short of tier 3 GS SP items are useless; what you are missing is that the SP bonuses add up quickly: MT + IMT + enhancements = quite a few SP
3. Again, if you raid 6 nights a week, I can see your point; for the rest of us, the feats make sense

smatt
01-24-2009, 11:39 AM
How so? It's really simple: You cannot hold players accountable for the developers' mistakes. Off-hand, I can think of a dozen better ways to handle situations like this than the way they do, if their goal was truly to "stop exploits," starting with allowing public discussion of things that aren't working right and ending with adding walls to block exploit spots until they figure out how to fix them.

Instead, they're using it as an opportunity to reign in "overpowered" classes; worse, it seems like they are intentionally delaying the fixes so that they will be available the next time they screw up the balance.

Again, why is the solution not to simply make the enhancement HP go away when you take off the helm?


:eek: Those evil Devs... I knew they had this planned all along... Most likely with you in particular in mind :D Sometimes I wish I was a Dev, I could be FAR mroe devious than these folks are ;)

Jeez, it seems MOST other people even the ones who are having to do some major work around and respecs on their toons accept this change if not for the best as one that's OK and just the way it is. Live with it.... It's not life ending for your toon, if it is..... Well dag nab it......

I think several people have offered up some options that make perfect sense for your build. At worst you'll lose a few SP or a few HP for what 2 levels, until you get another feat at LVL 18....

feynman
01-24-2009, 11:50 AM
:eek: Those evil Devs... I knew they had this planned all along... Most likely with you in particular in mind :D Sometimes I wish I was a Dev, I could be FAR mroe devious than these folks are ;)

Jeez, it seems MOST other people even the ones who are having to do some major work around and respecs on their toons accept this change if not for the best as one that's OK and just the way it is. Live with it.... It's not life ending for your toon, if it is..... Well dag nab it......

I think several people have offered up some options that make perfect sense for your build. At worst you'll lose a few SP or a few HP for what 2 levels, until you get another feat at LVL 18....

You're missing the point; it is, overall, 1 less feat that a sorcerer can have, one way or another. Unless your sorcerer build included a toughness feat outside of the minos to begin with, but that's not terribly common, is it?

The question is still why they had to do it this way at all; if they're upset about exploiters, by which I can only imagine that they mean people who get the helm, take the enhancements, and then use a different helm and keep the HP, since otherwise it's not really an exploit because you actually have the feat, temporary or not, why would they not simply have the enhancement HP drop whenever you remove the helm?

Aspenor
01-24-2009, 11:52 AM
The pseudo-Toughness feat the helmet grants will grant 20 additional hit points to the wearer (that stack with all other sources of extra hit points) regardless of character level, and will no longer grant unintended access to enhancements that require the Toughness feat as a prerequisite.



You're missing the point; it is, overall, 1 less feat that a sorcerer can have, one way or another. Unless your sorcerer build included a toughness feat outside of the minos to begin with, but that's not terribly common, is it?

The question is still why they had to do it this way at all; if they're upset about exploiters, by which I can only imagine that they mean people who get the helm, take the enhancements, and then use a different helm and keep the HP, since otherwise it's not really an exploit because you actually have the feat, temporary or not, why would they not simply have the enhancement HP drop whenever you remove the helm?

because you weren't supposed to have access to those enhancements in the first place. reading comprehension FTW.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-24-2009, 12:34 PM
Maybe after I get 4 GS items and an inventory full of raid loot, but not all of us play 8 hours a day. And I only hit 200 HP with the helm and all the enhancements, but the difference in survivability is significant.

You keep saying this, but its bull. I have 1 T2 GS item on my caster, and only one of those tiers is SP and none of them are HP. GS is not your problem.



85 SP = 3 PKs

This is often meaningful in the sense of "staying alive". In any case, if I had 2400 SP, it might be different, but I only top 2k w/ MT. Again, after I get the GS codpiece, things may be different.

Still more GS whining.... It's misplaced, those items arent make or break for casters. Do you have ANY SP items? A magi item for example can be picked up dirt cheap on the AH or at a broker and gives you 200SP.

You are also aware that Wizards do quite well with hundreds less SP right? 85 SP is not a big deal.



Started with:

STR 10
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 20

The only dump stat there is WIS, unless you are using "dump stat" in the sense of "You didn't buy a stack of +2 tomes for your character," in which case, we are talking at cross-purposes.

1 less pt of CHA or a couple less of DEX might have served you well. And as a sorc, did you really need a 12 int? But whatever, you traded off HP for your build, this is the consequence.


Basically, everyone here is saying that, because I do not live in game and built my sorc based on the rules in effect at the time, that I will have to reroll; but when does that end? Am I doomed to playing gimped "balance" builds just so I will be immune to the future whims of the devs? If so, there are other games coming out. That's all I'm saying.

No, we are saying you built something that is less than ideal, and thats your choice. It doesn't mean its unplayable and if you think a handful of hitpoints or a handful of SP makes that much of a difference you really need to reasess your playstyle.

Aranticus
01-24-2009, 12:47 PM
You keep saying this, but its bull. I have 1 T2 GS item on my caster, and only one of those tiers is SP and none of them are HP. GS is not your problem.



Still more GS whining.... It's misplaced, those items arent make or break for casters. Do you have ANY SP items? A magi item for example can be picked up dirt cheap on the AH or at a broker and gives you 200SP.

You are also aware that Wizards do quite well with hundreds less SP right? 85 SP is not a big deal.



1 less pt of CHA or a couple less of DEX might have served you well. And as a sorc, did you really need a 12 int? But whatever, you traded off HP for your build, this is the consequence.



No, we are saying you built something that is less than ideal, and thats your choice. It doesn't mean its unplayable and if you think a handful of hitpoints or a handful of SP makes that much of a difference you really need to reasess your playstyle.

too many 1 trick monkeys these days. 2000+ sp and still complaining. my 38 int wiz has only 1800 but i do not run out of sp very often. clever playing is something which alot lacks. ya right about this one, he should stop whining.... prolly we should call whine-one-one

Aspenor
01-24-2009, 12:51 PM
85 SP is not a big deal.

Not a big deal is an understatement. 85 sp is a whole 2 casts of unheightened Finger of Death, and any sorcerer expending a feat on this is not making a good decision.

feynman
01-24-2009, 01:46 PM
You keep saying this, but its bull. I have 1 T2 GS item on my caster, and only one of those tiers is SP and none of them are HP. GS is not your problem.



Still more GS whining.... It's misplaced, those items arent make or break for casters. Do you have ANY SP items? A magi item for example can be picked up dirt cheap on the AH or at a broker and gives you 200SP.

You are also aware that Wizards do quite well with hundreds less SP right? 85 SP is not a big deal.



1 less pt of CHA or a couple less of DEX might have served you well. And as a sorc, did you really need a 12 int? But whatever, you traded off HP for your build, this is the consequence.



No, we are saying you built something that is less than ideal, and thats your choice. It doesn't mean its unplayable and if you think a handful of hitpoints or a handful of SP makes that much of a difference you really need to reasess your playstyle.

Oh noes! I didn't build your cookie cutter sorc! I must be punished!

Honestly, are you really comfortable with every character being the same? Go play WpW.

bobbryan2
01-24-2009, 01:57 PM
Oh noes! I didn't build your cookie cutter sorc! I must be punished!

Honestly, are you really comfortable with every character being the same? Go play WpW.

Well, at least those 'cookie cutter' builds aren't crying that 20 HP has irrevocably broken their build.

Aspenor
01-24-2009, 02:06 PM
Well, at least those 'cookie cutter' builds aren't crying that 20 HP has irrevocably broken their build.

or that they need 85 spell points....

nytewolf
01-24-2009, 02:07 PM
Its not about cookie cutter builds. Its about building a character that is survivable and without exploiting an item that was stated long ago its not working as intended.

A few things about your build have been pointed out or shown to be lacking or not needed. For instance your starting Dex is 12 Why? What does 2 points of dex give you? (Actually for a caster even an 18 with item is a waste) For that matter regarding Mental toughness drop it and take toughness then go to Korthos Island run Misery's Peak get the Archivist's Necklace and you have a clickie that covers most of your SP lost by swapping feats.

Personally im starting to dislike the low hp Drow Sorc's that seem to be popping up more and more. This is not about cookie cutter this is about common sence in regards to end game content and High level quests. I personally dislike seeing casters that can be one shot by Harry after having Resist fire and Fireshield placed upon them.

feynman
01-24-2009, 02:14 PM
too many 1 trick monkeys these days. 2000+ sp and still complaining. my 38 int wiz has only 1800 but i do not run out of sp very often. clever playing is something which alot lacks. ya right about this one, he should stop whining.... prolly we should call whine-one-one

And maybe you guys should think- oh, sorry. Maybe just imagine that you are not omniscient, is all. I could point out that comparing wizards and sorcs is misleading, but you know that already, don't you? So, keep on being a good little pet, and maybe eladrin will send you a festivult card.

Tanka
01-24-2009, 02:18 PM
And maybe you guys should think- oh, sorry. Maybe just imagine that you are not omniscient, is all. I could point out that comparing wizards and sorcs is misleading, but you know that already, don't you? So, keep on being a good little pet, and maybe eladrin will send you a festivult card.
Hilarious.

feynman
01-24-2009, 02:20 PM
Its not about cookie cutter builds. Its about building a character that is survivable and without exploiting an item that was stated long ago its not working as intended.

Again, this character predates that.



A few things about your build have been pointed out or shown to be lacking or not needed. For instance your starting Dex is 12 Why? What does 2 points of dex give you? (Actually for a caster even an 18 with item is a waste) For that matter regarding Mental toughness drop it and take toughness then go to Korthos Island run Misery's Peak get the Archivist's Necklace and you have a clickie that covers most of your SP lost by swapping feats.

Look, you obviously have a different idea of what the class is supposed to do than I do; fair enough, but don't come off like your idea is the one true definition.



Personally im starting to dislike the low hp Drow Sorc's that seem to be popping up more and more. This is not about cookie cutter this is about common sence in regards to end game content and High level quests. I personally dislike seeing casters that can be one shot by Harry after having Resist fire and Fireshield placed upon them.

That's wonderful; what does that have to do with me having my optimized build screwed up by devs overreacting to exploiters?

Lehrman
01-24-2009, 02:33 PM
This will probably be a useless post, but here goes...

Do not respond to Feynman. He is right, you are wrong. Nothing you will say can change that he believes this to be true. Let him blather on to his heart's content in the vain hope that someone somewhere agrees with him and go back to playing the game.

Desteria, I need you to form some more Shroud runs. I am getting tired of joining runs that take more than 45 minutes--too many poor players that think they are otherwise.

Note: Did you know that there is a squelch option for the Forums! Uber!

feynman
01-24-2009, 02:36 PM
This will probably be a useless post, but here goes...

Do not respond to Feynman. He is right, you are wrong. Nothing you will say can change that he believes this to be true. Let him blather on to his heart's content in the vain hope that someone somewhere agrees with him and go back to playing the game.

Nice; passive aggressive with that unmistakable patronizing tone. Gourmet trolling, congratulations.



Desteria, I need you to form some more Shroud runs. I am getting tired of joining runs that take more than 45 minutes--too many poor players that think they are otherwise.

Irony, thy name is forum troll.

Junts
01-24-2009, 02:38 PM
Again, this character predates that.



Look, you obviously have a different idea of what the class is supposed to do than I do; fair enough, but don't come off like your idea is the one true definition.



That's wonderful; what does that have to do with me having my optimized build screwed up by devs overreacting to exploiters?


Hi, would you like someone to buy you a siberys dragonshard?

drow sorc with 240 hp //// optimized build, not same.

you can continue to use minos as-is, t hen take toughness as your lv 18 feat; quit whining, you're just embarrassing yourself.

Aspenor
01-24-2009, 03:00 PM
drow?

optimized?

that wasn't really said, was it? what a joke.

smatt
01-24-2009, 03:01 PM
You're missing the point; it is, overall, 1 less feat that a sorcerer can have, one way or another. Unless your sorcerer build included a toughness feat outside of the minos to begin with, but that's not terribly common, is it?

The question is still why they had to do it this way at all; if they're upset about exploiters, by which I can only imagine that they mean people who get the helm, take the enhancements, and then use a different helm and keep the HP, since otherwise it's not really an exploit because you actually have the feat, temporary or not, why would they not simply have the enhancement HP drop whenever you remove the helm?


Likely the way it was coded in the first place..... And changing that bit of code affected otehr things. So they did it when they felt it was time to do the whole shabang....

Still not the end of the world..... Yet another change in a constantl;y changing game, sometimes you win IE Sorcs getting X2 to bonus SP items, and sometimes you lose.... Now what would you say if they took those SP from you? Personally, I think it's a crime they gave the Sorcs all those SP and left he other casting classes in the dust :(

They never intended the Minos to provide the toughness feat, and it doesn't really matter how long they waited to fix it. Iwould consider yourself lucky to have benefited this long from it as with myself and all the others. The true weakness of the Sorc class has always been and should remain their lack of HP, they're extremely powerful except for that. They've given you a means to increase your HP, but it will cost you a bit.... There is a way out....

And since the out cry against this change is only a very few people of the very many that are being affected, it's not likely going to change the position of the Devs.

feynman
01-24-2009, 03:07 PM
Hi, would you like someone to buy you a siberys dragonshard?

Not the problem, but thanks.


drow sorc with 240 hp //// optimized build, not same.

Optimized for what? Obviously the change doesn't affect you so much, so you feel justified in belittling me. Pride goeth.


you can continue to use minos as-is, t hen take toughness as your lv 18 feat; quit whining, you're just embarrassing yourself.

Again, the whole point is that it is a loss of a feat in a feat-poor class; what, you don't think I had plans for that feat? Other things that would have been nice? I probably would have taken skill focus: tumble, right? I should be thanking the devs for saving me from wasting a feat. /sarcasm off

I'm not saying that this character is useless, but it will quickly become a shroud farmer while I roll up the new flavor of the month. Sorry to embarrass myself because I'm sick of my characters becoming obsolete as soon as they cap, but that's what happens when the rules change in the middle of the game.

Aspenor
01-24-2009, 03:09 PM
i know feyn has me ignored, so, does anybody else find it hilarious that he thinks a drow is an optimized sorcerer?

nytewolf
01-24-2009, 03:11 PM
Regarding these comments. If your going to quote someone on their posts make sure your quoting the right person. To make a mistake like this makes you look foolish.



Nice; passive aggressive with that unmistakable patronizing tone. Gourmet trolling, congratulations.



Irony, thy name is forum troll.

Borror0
01-24-2009, 03:14 PM
Sorry to embarrass myself because I'm sick of my characters becoming obsolete as soon as they cap, but that's what happens when the rules change in the middle of the game.
Hey-oh, this is a MMO. This is bound to happen! Don't like it, don't play MMOs.

Your characters are not useless, unless by 'useless' you mean 'non-optimized for the current end game content'. Now, if you'd like to have the ability to respec your character, I won't disagree. However, whining because your character is less powerful than he once was is silly. You're not having fun, fine. But the game isn't built only around you, you have to understand that if something is done to improve the game, it's life.

Value the change on the benefit it has on the game, not how it affects you. Your problem, it seems, could be solved by character respec.

Ask for that, don't pointlessly rant. Your character isn't 'gimped'.

EDIT: Oh, Aspenor reminded me. I'm probably on ignore too. Meh, GTWF > GTHF, everyone knows that.

feynman
01-24-2009, 03:16 PM
Likely the way it was coded in the first place..... And changing that bit of code affected otehr things. So they did it when they felt it was time to do the whole shabang....

Still not the end of the world..... Yet another change in a constantl;y changing game, sometimes you win IE Sorcs getting X2 to bonus SP items, and sometimes you lose.... Now what would you say if they took those SP from you? Personally, I think it's a crime they gave the Sorcs all those SP and left he other casting classes in the dust :(

They never intended the Minos to provide the toughness feat, and it doesn't really matter how long they waited to fix it. Iwould consider yourself lucky to have benefited this long from it as with myself and all the others. The true weakness of the Sorc class has always been and should remain their lack of HP, they're extremely powerful except for that. They've given you a means to increase your HP, but it will cost you a bit.... There is a way out....

And since the out cry against this change is only a very few people of the very many that are being affected, it's not likely going to change the position of the Devs.

Of course it's not going to change the position of the devs; you've got a dozen cheerleaders here that will attack anyone who disagrees with the devs, and others who feel that sorcs are overpowered and will agree with anything that makes their meatshields more important. I won't argue the overpowered point, but nobody has even acknowledged my question, much less answered it:

Why would the "fix" not simply subtract the enhancement HP when the helm is removed?

Eelpout
01-24-2009, 03:18 PM
Of course it's not going to change the position of the devs; you've got a dozen cheerleaders here that will attack anyone who disagrees with the devs

Rah Rah Ree, Kick him in the knee,
Rah Rah Ras, Kick him in the other knee

Junts
01-24-2009, 03:29 PM
Not the problem, but thanks.



Optimized for what? Obviously the change doesn't affect you so much, so you feel justified in belittling me. Pride goeth.



Again, the whole point is that it is a loss of a feat in a feat-poor class; what, you don't think I had plans for that feat? Other things that would have been nice? I probably would have taken skill focus: tumble, right? I should be thanking the devs for saving me from wasting a feat. /sarcasm off

I'm not saying that this character is useless, but it will quickly become a shroud farmer while I roll up the new flavor of the month. Sorry to embarrass myself because I'm sick of my characters becoming obsolete as soon as they cap, but that's what happens when the rules change in the middle of the game.

its a sorceror; take max, empower. heighten, extend, toughness, max your cha and start with at least 14 con, and get concentration and umd - you even have 1-2 feats left over (depending on whether you're human) at the present level-cap if you want spell pens or mental toughnesses - voila, you do sorceror things. Unless you were playing some kind of uber-enlarging, spell-focused enchanty build, I can't see how you're having feat problems (or if you think two mts and two spell pens is necessary).

Being alarmist about how this affects a sorc of all classes is just silly.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-24-2009, 03:29 PM
Oh noes! I didn't build your cookie cutter sorc! I must be punished!

Honestly, are you really comfortable with every character being the same? Go play WpW.

Cookie cutter? Did you read what I said at all? I gave multiple options that could have changed the HP shortage you seem to feel. I also pointed out that a few points in HP or SP either way don't matter. I'm the last person that would suggest every char needs to be the same. I've only suggested that you built in your own shortfalls to that char and that it should still be playable so why are you whining?



I'm not saying that this character is useless, but it will quickly become a shroud farmer while I roll up the new flavor of the month. Sorry to embarrass myself because I'm sick of my characters becoming obsolete as soon as they cap, but that's what happens when the rules change in the middle of the game.

You only need to do that if you want to. Your Sorc, even with the limits you have listed, has enough HP to be survivable on more SP than a Wiz. If he sucks, it isn't Turbine's fault, its the guy at the keyboard.

Tanka
01-24-2009, 03:29 PM
Of course it's not going to change the position of the devs; you've got a dozen cheerleaders here that will attack anyone who disagrees with the devs, and others who feel that sorcs are overpowered and will agree with anything that makes their meatshields more important. I won't argue the overpowered point, but nobody has even acknowledged my question, much less answered it:

Why would the "fix" not simply subtract the enhancement HP when the helm is removed?
If you hadn't noticed, a lot of us are very vocal about the game -- both the good and the bad. We tell the Devs when we disagree and some of us even make suggestions on how to make it better.

In fact, most of the prominent posters opt to disagree politely with the Devs more often than not.

bobbryan2
01-24-2009, 03:41 PM
Of course it's not going to change the position of the devs; you've got a dozen cheerleaders here that will attack anyone who disagrees with the devs, and others who feel that sorcs are overpowered and will agree with anything that makes their meatshields more important. I won't argue the overpowered point, but nobody has even acknowledged my question, much less answered it:

Why would the "fix" not simply subtract the enhancement HP when the helm is removed?

Did you hear that? I'm a cheerleader!

Hendrik
01-24-2009, 06:16 PM
Of course it's not going to change the position of the devs; you've got a dozen cheerleaders here that will attack anyone who disagrees with the devs, and others who feel that sorcs are overpowered and will agree with anything that makes their meatshields more important. I won't argue the overpowered point, but nobody has even acknowledged my question, much less answered it:

Why would the "fix" not simply subtract the enhancement HP when the helm is removed?

Because you would be left with Enhancements that you do not qualify for?

Frodo_Lives
01-24-2009, 07:17 PM
This change was coming, we all knew it.

A handfull of hps does not make a character either uber or obsolete.

Almost any change in the form of new spells, feats, enhancemensts, items or simply changes to any of the above effects the details of a character. It doesn't always (or even often) mean you need to re roll.

Items do not act as replacements for feats, you should never be allowed to use an item as a pre requisite for anything.

For all of the above reasons and many more feynman, you sound like a whiney child whose favorite rattle just broke.

It's not the end of the world, you were taking advantage of a loophole that we all knew would be fixed and now that it is you're ****ed, I understand. It still doesn't make you anywhere close to being right.

feynman
01-24-2009, 08:07 PM
Did IQs suddenly drop while I was away?

Reading comprehension has suffered, anyway.

Once more for the cheap seats:

Why would the "fix" not simply subtract the enhancement HP when the helm is removed?

Kistilan
01-24-2009, 08:16 PM
Did IQs suddenly drop while I was away?

Reading comprehension has suffered, anyway.

Once more for the cheap seats:

Why would the "fix" not simply subtract the enhancement HP when the helm is removed?

Because the enhancements are linked directly to the feat being "applied" to the character.

I recommend visiting Fred for further review to swop out Toughness for Bullheaded on a Toughness character and see just exactly what happens. ;) And don't be wearing your Minos helm.

Jacoby
01-24-2009, 08:44 PM
While it's still a nerf, I do appreciate the communication.

feynman
01-24-2009, 09:46 PM
Because the enhancements are linked directly to the feat being "applied" to the character.


But that's not how it's working now; the change to not count the feat for enhancements can't be any harder than just making the enhancements contingent on continuing to wear the helm.

vyvy3369
01-24-2009, 09:57 PM
Did IQs suddenly drop while I was away?

Reading comprehension has suffered, anyway.

Once more for the cheap seats:

Why would the "fix" not simply subtract the enhancement HP when the helm is removed?
This quote (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1809918&postcount=161)from 08-01-2008 might help answer your question:



The Toughness granted by Minos Legens, as currently implemented, allows access to the Toughness enhancements. These enhancements remain even if the helm is later removed. As I see it, this is a somewhat gray area, and there are two parts that could use some clarification about whether or not they're bugs:

Should the Toughness granted by the helmet open up enhancement lines?
If the answer to #1 is Yes, should the enhancement lines remain if the helmet is removed?

1: That's a bug. Prereqs should generally only count things that are fairly permanent.
2: Much of the motivation for #1 is not needing to deal with answering this kind of question.

Kistilan
01-24-2009, 10:36 PM
But that's not how it's working now; the change to not count the feat for enhancements can't be any harder than just making the enhancements contingent on continuing to wear the helm.

Well, if this is the case, everyone should be able to get spring attack if they have dodge and wear a mobility robe... but what, does that feat go inactive when you take your mobility item off? That's going way out to left field of how things work (breaking mechanics).

feynman
01-25-2009, 12:01 AM
Well, if this is the case, everyone should be able to get spring attack if they have dodge and wear a mobility robe... but what, does that feat go inactive when you take your mobility item off? That's going way out to left field of how things work (breaking mechanics).

But you can't argue mechanics because the system does not account for action points! At this point, everything is being made up as they go along; my complaint is that they are losing consistency. I want to know what to expect by setting up my character in a certain way, without having to worry that the rules will change in the middle of the process.

Kistilan
01-25-2009, 12:39 AM
But you can't argue mechanics because the system does not account for action points! At this point, everything is being made up as they go along; my complaint is that they are losing consistency. I want to know what to expect by setting up my character in a certain way, without having to worry that the rules will change in the middle of the process.

We had a thread for that....

It's the one called "It's about time to Consider a Full Character Respec, Turbine."

Meanwhile, the helm is not working as they intended (allowing toughness enhancement access).

It's basically like a free feat for those who were wearing it, and that was not the intent to allow access to an enhancement line via a free feat.

Desteria
01-25-2009, 03:16 AM
85 SP = 3 PKs

And highten Insted of MT woudl mena the first PK landed.... with no need to cast the other 2, savign you 40sp per PKed mob + all teh damage that mob did while you wait for PK to cycle that the cleric spent SP healing.

Desteria
01-25-2009, 03:19 AM
Ever hear of people that don't spend all day loot farming? So far, all the recommendations amount to "You should be spending 60 hours a week grinding loot!"

ONE shroud run shoudl net you enough plat with ZERO haggle ranks on a sorc to buy 100 G-hero scrolls, they realyl are NOT exspesive at all.




Heavy fort robes and rings are all over the place. In the short run, I can use a 6 cha helm, switch out my cloak, etc, but it's still going to suck.

Basically, everyone here is saying that, because I do not live in game and built my sorc based on the rules in effect at the time, that I will have to reroll; but when does that end? Am I doomed to playing gimped "balance" builds just so I will be immune to the future whims of the devs? If so, there are other games coming out. That's all I'm saying.
20 hp helm with heavy fort & +6 cha item some where else >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then heavy fort somewhere else and +6 cha helm.

Desteria
01-25-2009, 03:29 AM
Not interested in upping the server drama, thanks; it's nothing personal, I just happened to notice some time ago that certain guilds had a disproportionate number of people on my "do not group with list" for various flaws in their play style, and yours is one of them. As it is, I am not the only one who avoids your PUGs, but if you are doing well, more power to you.

If you insist, however, you can ask about Kisandre/Kindre/Tawndre/Ludia with Deathwatch Guard.

Thank-you we are doing great kickign ass adn taking names.



1. That's why I already have extend, although your breakdown is flawed; I'm not spending the rest of the afternoon doing math, though.
2. By your logic, anything short of tier 3 GS SP items are useless; what you are missing is that the SP bonuses add up quickly: MT + IMT + enhancements = quite a few SP
3. Again, if you raid 6 nights a week, I can see your point; for the rest of us, the feats make sense

re:1 - love to see where my math is flawed unles si made a typo this time totaly possible I've done it a lot of times.

re:2 - hu I'm saying that the FEATS MT/IMT compare dto other feats are a loseign option, I have done pages of math and senerios and traced average spelled used betwene shrines and purty basicaly every thing that effetcs SP indirectly, emp/max/extend/highten all give you more effective SP then the MT/IMT feats....
extend buy causign less recasts
Emp/MAX buy increasing your damage per SP well past the amount of damage MT or IMT can add with there SP
Highten in less recasts due to succfull saves, though this oen is hardest to qualifie sine you also really need to take in to accoutn the clerics SP you saved but havign the CC or insta kill land the firts time thus preventing potention damage, mostly i WANT my spells to WORK...
Spell pen/gtr spell pen: buy less spells lost to SR fails IE if MT/IMT goive you 170 SP then havign both spell pen feats only needs to make 4 FoD break SR that would nto have before to be savign you SP.... it;s nto hard to figure out that at a 20% better SR buypass it does nto take that miany casts to hit that rate.

Re:3 how much you play has NOTHING to do with wich feats are better all my calcultiosn were done based on a much smaller PS pool, every thing else has remained costant in the same time frame btu SP pools have gotted bigger wich only makes the none MT/IMT optiosn BETTER, or the base pool size to make eveythign beat them much easyer to atain...

Desteria
01-25-2009, 03:38 AM
Again, this character predates that.

YOU know the bonus touoghness AP hp are onyl a recent thign anyway!!!!! Drow sorcs did nto have any racial toughnes slien untill they adde dit recently what did you do before that.... because if he predates that fact that minos was a known bug that was never sposed to work he also predates the new toughness lines!!!!!!!

Desteria
01-25-2009, 03:44 AM
Desteria, I need you to form some more Shroud runs. I am getting tired of joining runs that take more than 45 minutes--too many poor players that think they are otherwise.

Note: Did you know that there is a squelch option for the Forums! Uber!

We formed a pug run just the other day... 31 min compleation looting as we went....

Unfortunutly I'm addicted to speed runs, wich helps me get my shrouds in with more limited play time now, soo i like my 20 misn run group and do most shrouds with them... VoD and hound we purty much finished farming as a guild a while ago now, the loot lists are soo shallow and much of the loto soo unremarkable there just isnet a reason any more... We do still start a Titan run every 3 days or so though. Spend a lot of our time farting around reflaging for SoS.
Some of the guildies are runnign shrouds in the Pacific AM hours with Boldrin a lot though, they are good groups if you play then look for them.

Desteria
01-25-2009, 03:48 AM
I probably would have taken skill focus: tumble, right? I should be thanking the devs for saving me from wasting a feat.

Whell considerign you still think MT is the bees knees, I would not put it past you to take that Excelent feat choice....
And since you already have MT/FoP I'd say it;s alreayd to late to thank them.

Desteria
01-25-2009, 03:49 AM
i know feyn has me ignored, so, does anybody else find it hilarious that he thinks a drow is an optimized sorcerer?

yes!!

Desteria
01-25-2009, 03:53 AM
Of course it's not going to change the position of the devs; you've got a dozen cheerleaders here that will attack anyone who disagrees with the devs, and others who feel that sorcs are overpowered and will agree with anything that makes their meatshields more important. I won't argue the overpowered point, but nobody has even acknowledged my question, much less answered it:

Why would the "fix" not simply subtract the enhancement HP when the helm is removed?

AS peopel have answered mainy times thats NOT a simple FIX thats a MAJOR change to root game mecanics, changign the item to be flat HP that stack is a SIMPLE fix... the game onyl checks your AP prerecs when you pick them to have it check them EVERY tiem you equip difrent items is a MAJOR change and a change that would cause mroe sever work very OFTEN, leaddign to the possiblitie of even more lag then we get now we want LESS lag not MORE...
WE want stable code NOT dev;s playign with base gmae code that risks all sorts of unitended side effects like compleat cascade faliures.

Borror0
01-25-2009, 04:40 AM
Desteria, you really need to start using multiquote. :P

Desteria
01-25-2009, 04:55 AM
Desteria, you really need to start using multiquote. :P

But but i liek whole pages of my posts when i get in to work and catch up on a days reading.....

besides IF i do that i forget what i wanted to say abotu the first post by the time i get to the lats one....

Aranticus
01-25-2009, 07:44 AM
We formed a pug run just the other day... 31 min compleation looting as we went....

Unfortunutly I'm addicted to speed runs, wich helps me get my shrouds in with more limited play time now, soo i like my 20 misn run group and do most shrouds with them... VoD and hound we purty much finished farming as a guild a while ago now, the loot lists are soo shallow and much of the loto soo unremarkable there just isnet a reason any more... We do still start a Titan run every 3 days or so though. Spend a lot of our time farting around reflaging for SoS.
Some of the guildies are runnign shrouds in the Pacific AM hours with Boldrin a lot though, they are good groups if you play then look for them.

did a 38min today, not as uber but we really surprised ourselves coz people entered early, did alot of buffing. oh we looted as well :p

Aranticus
01-25-2009, 07:50 AM
And maybe you guys should think- oh, sorry. Maybe just imagine that you are not omniscient, is all. I could point out that comparing wizards and sorcs is misleading, but you know that already, don't you? So, keep on being a good little pet, and maybe eladrin will send you a festivult card.

it is not being omniscient nor the difference between wiz and sorc. rather, its more of using sp wisely. if that 85 sp is so important to a 2000+ sp sorc, then prolly you might want to look at the way you play. everytime i see a sorc go empty in shroud part 1, i chuckle. there is no need to fod/pk every single mob, some can be left to the melees to clear. seems to me that you are the one who wants to be omniscient. either that or you aint very smart....

Jarka
01-25-2009, 08:50 AM
You're missing the point; it is, overall, 1 less feat that a sorcerer can have, one way or another. Unless your sorcerer build included a toughness feat outside of the minos to begin with, but that's not terribly common, is it?

The question is still why they had to do it this way at all; if they're upset about exploiters, by which I can only imagine that they mean people who get the helm, take the enhancements, and then use a different helm and keep the HP, since otherwise it's not really an exploit because you actually have the feat, temporary or not, why would they not simply have the enhancement HP drop whenever you remove the helm?

Well, the way I see it, is the Dev's Have made their choice to fix the Helm (which they stated as long as year ago{?} they would eventually do). Some people may be unhappy, others not (i'm not upset, coz I listened to the warnings from loooong ago).

So, Feynman, you now have a choice to make. 1) You can continue to complain about this change, or 2) You can take a step back, re-evaluate your characters' strengths and weakenesses, and adapt. Will it take some effort on your part? Yes it will.

I do not play "cookie-cutter" builds. I have a couple "interesting" builds. Have I been negatively affected by some of the changes, past and up-coming? YES I HAVE! Yet my Drow ranger/fighter/rogue (still my favorite toon to play), rolled in Jan 07 when I opened up 32 pt builds, is still here. I've had to adapt....both his build, as well as my playstyle, in order to keep him an asset to those I party with.

Strengths: good dps (not outstanding, but good), reliable UMD, solid trap abilities, among a few others.

Weakenesses: 39 unbuffed AC (ouch) :(, ummm, errrrr, ahem *in a whisper* 16 con with tomes and item. :eek:

He can be a challenge to play and keep alive.....but what is life without a challenge?? :D

Lorien_the_First_One
01-25-2009, 09:24 AM
But that's not how it's working now; the change to not count the feat for enhancements can't be any harder than just making the enhancements contingent on continuing to wear the helm.

I agree with you that per D&D rules this is how it should work...but then a +6 dex ring should also work that way in letting you get the TWF feat. Here's the thing, it isn't coded that way, and that is a HUGE coding change as it would at a lot of checks and conditionals every time and item is removed or added and to every time a feat or enhancement must be used. It's amassive recode, its smarter to make this one item consistant with the way similar feats and enhancements already work in the game.


But you can't argue mechanics because the system does not account for action points! At this point, everything is being made up as they go along; my complaint is that they are losing consistency. I want to know what to expect by setting up my character in a certain way, without having to worry that the rules will change in the middle of the process.

You just made the case FOR the change. Consistancy demands that Minos not work as a prereq for other feats or enhancements. Those of us who expected consistancy always knew they would fix this eventually.





1. That's why I already have extend, although your breakdown is flawed; I'm not spending the rest of the afternoon doing math, though.
2. By your logic, anything short of tier 3 GS SP items are useless; what you are missing is that the SP bonuses add up quickly: MT + IMT + enhancements = quite a few SP
3. Again, if you raid 6 nights a week, I can see your point; for the rest of us, the feats make sense

You always come back to GS... and it really has nothing to do with anything. T2 gives a minor boost, T3 larger but you don't need it to hit 2500 SP, I certainly don't have it.



i know feyn has me ignored, so, does anybody else find it hilarious that he thinks a drow is an optimized sorcerer?

Well I've got a drow sorc too. It was the sorc of choice for most people two years ago because it seemed obvious with the chr bonus. I remember my guild leader being mad at me when he heard I put more than 8 into str and con as "that was a waste". People had some silly ideas back then. Low con drow certainly isn't the best way to go for "optimized". Odds are fey also has a flavor/interesting build or out of date build. I really love playing my drow sorc, but optimized...nope, that isn't what I'd call it.

Borror0
01-25-2009, 09:26 AM
It was the sorc of choice for most people two years ago because it seemed obvious with the chr bonus.
Ah, Module 3: back when 10 Con was a decent amount of Con for any melee character.

Aspenor
01-25-2009, 09:40 AM
I really love playing my drow sorc, but optimized...nope, that isn't what I'd call it.

I'm sure you do, and I would have had fun with it too, I'm sure, if my human hadn't hit high levels so fast. Even at 28 pt my human is a match for any drow or warforged.

Desteria
01-25-2009, 09:48 AM
I'm sure you do, and I would have had fun with it too, I'm sure, if my human hadn't hit high levels so fast. Even at 28 pt my human is a match for any drow or warforged.

Dest is a 28pt human to !!!!, and becasue i was more used to PnP I wasted points on dex and stuff insted of maxign only CON and CHA, she is still rock sollid but could be optimized more imo by being a 32pt build with 2-4 more con.
I'm not cryign about the loss of my HP, I'm goign to lose the same HP or have to fit a toughnes sfeat in on her to, I don't want to lose the HP, but I knew it was commign and it;s not liek i;ve had those extra HP for that long, it was only recently they added human racial toughness to the game after all!!!!!

relik_arkane
01-25-2009, 11:24 AM
Oh no, they are taking away one of my favorite glitches? I won't be able to take advantage of the system anymore? WAAAAAAA. LOL. No offense but there are other more important fixes required in this game. This one is minor to players but major from a coding standpoint. I think DDO has done a reasonable job thus far of enacting the minor tweaks required by a program of this magnitude to keep it running smoothly. So why not simply change the nature of the current toughness added by the helm? Make it Improved false life instead, although greater false life would be on a more consistant level with what is required to obtain the helm. Almost all of my toons that have this helm will be only marginally effected. Tanks already have toughness and the others do not take the enhancements offered as an unintended result of the helm.

This game is at its core a game of balance to ensure an appropriate challenge. If I built super toons, unloaded all the plat I could into them and their gear, then only ran certain quests to power level... well then the game really wouldnt be enjoyable to me. I personally do not participate in the current crafting system because it is a joke. It has absolutely nothing to do with the toon's abilities to craft. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is a collect and assemble affair and nothing more. In the core game, a toon that wants to make an item must take the feat necessary to it's creation. Partial formulas for item creation are reasonably common in high level quests and parties undertake these quests to obtain such information. Certain ingredients are difficult to obtain, often requiring forays into dangerous territories. All these things would certainly make for a more interesting and balanced crafting system. To craft an item a toon should have the feat, the plat to pay for the common ingredients and the rare ingredients all at hand. There should be an experience cost for creating items and the more potent the item the higher the cost, perhaps even a level worth of experience. Enough tangent ranting, lol.

It's a game, have fun and play. Don't cry when the rules or mechanics are clarified, adapt and become stronger for it!

feynman
01-25-2009, 11:25 AM
And highten Insted of MT woudl mena the first PK landed.... with no need to cast the other 2, savign you 40sp per PKed mob + all teh damage that mob did while you wait for PK to cycle that the cleric spent SP healing.

Or my spell pen feat does the same thing, or the fact that I "wasted" points taking CHA to 20, or that I went drow instead of human, or that I put points in dex so that I can tumble between spells so the cleric doesn't have to heal me so much... you can break it down any way you want, the fact is that there are multiple ways to accomplish the goal, and mine was good until the devs made an arbitrary decision to make it bad.

So I am going to have another capped toon gathering dust because the rules changed, and the only suggestions anyone has are to level a cookie-cutter build and play more to get decent gear. The respec mechanism would be a workable solution, if not perfect, but I don't see it happening.

boldarblood
01-25-2009, 03:32 PM
MT & IMT are both waste of feats on a sorc. Drop 1 or both and get your toughness back. Use the free feats on good feats, make your sorc that much better.

Grab things like both spell penetration feats, heighten, extend, empower, maximize. Those are much better feats for a sorc.

Korvek
01-25-2009, 03:58 PM
Or my spell pen feat does the same thing, or the fact that I "wasted" points taking CHA to 20, or that I went drow instead of human, or that I put points in dex so that I can tumble between spells so the cleric doesn't have to heal me so much... you can break it down any way you want, the fact is that there are multiple ways to accomplish the goal, and mine was good until the devs made an arbitrary decision to make it bad.

So I am going to have another capped toon gathering dust because the rules changed, and the only suggestions anyone has are to level a cookie-cutter build and play more to get decent gear.

So...

My drow sorc's stats are probably less balanced than yours: 8/16/12/10/8/20 base. I still break 200 easily without GFL or GS items. The Minos change will give me another 2 hit points relative to where he is now. Also, I don't have any Toughness enhancements nor did I take the feat.

I honestly don't see what exactly the issue here is.

Frodo_Lives
01-25-2009, 04:19 PM
The only issue here is a little crying over 20 hps because you can no longer take the toughness enhancements using the helm as the pre req feat.

As Desteria pointed out a drow sorc being able to take any toughness enhancements at all is a realitively new thing. I fail to see how any sorc was fine but now is gimp based on very recent changes (both adding racial toughness and now the change to not take toughness enhancements without the actual feat).

Heck it's not even a full 20 hps cause you gain 2 with the helm!

MT and IMT are not the issue here, bottom line is items never have been allowed to act as prereqs for anything and now the Minos helm is being brought in line with everything else in this game. We all knew it was coming, it makes sense in terms of how everything else works, and it is by far the easiest way to fix something that was acknowledged as not working as intended.

Still someone has to kick up a fuss even though they are completely in the wrong.

feynman
01-25-2009, 05:35 PM
MT & IMT are both waste of feats on a sorc. Drop 1 or both and get your toughness back. Use the free feats on good feats, make your sorc that much better.

Grab things like both spell penetration feats, heighten, extend, empower, maximize. Those are much better feats for a sorc.

Yea, already have those; in the meantime, I don't like running out of SP or relying on pots or the generosity of clerics.


So...

My drow sorc's stats are probably less balanced than yours: 8/16/12/10/8/20 base. I still break 200 easily without GFL or GS items. The Minos change will give me another 2 hit points relative to where he is now. Also, I don't have any Toughness enhancements nor did I take the feat.

I honestly don't see what exactly the issue here is.

1. We have the same starting con, and I need gfl + minos + enhancements + 6 con item to hit 200; OTOH, I haven't eaten a con tome.
2. If you don't think that 20 hp are worth 3 AP...
3. The issue is that it seems like any non-standard build is doomed to nerf because some people think that everyone should play the game the same way, and will whine incessantly about it; think about the LFMs you see giving requirements to join, or the "you don't know how to play" posts here. My build philosophy in this game has always been that con was the easiest stat to correct for from feats and gear, in large part due to the 38 HP you get from the minos, and have built 4 capped characters on that assumption, which is now no longer valid. The change affects DPS builds less (or not at all) since they tend to have spare feats, making this nothing less than a caster nerf. I suppose part of it is that this is the first character I've capped who was not inherently hindered, either by being a 28-point build or from ridiculous game mechanics (monk), and now it is.

Everyone here wants to say "oh, it's just 20 HP" or "it's only 85 SP", as if that means anything out of context; having both those 20 HP and 85 SP have saved more runs than I care to name. The other argument is that I should have built my character differently, but then we're back to changing rules and the cookie-cutter syndrome. What everyone here is saying, starting with the devs and ending with the forum trolls, is that I play differently and so I deserve anything I get. Screw.

bobbryan2
01-25-2009, 05:43 PM
3. The issue is that it seems like any non-standard build is doomed to nerf because some people think that everyone should play the game the same way, and will whine incessantly about it; think about the LFMs you see giving requirements to join, or the "you don't know how to play" posts here. My build philosophy in this game has always been that con was the easiest stat to correct for from feats and gear, in large part due to the 38 HP you get from the minos, and have built 4 capped characters on that assumption, which is now no longer valid. The change affects DPS builds less (or not at all) since they tend to have spare feats, making this nothing less than a caster nerf. I suppose part of it is that this is the first character I've capped who was not inherently hindered, either by being a 28-point build or from ridiculous game mechanics (monk), and now it is.

And there's a whole group of people that say any FoTM build is doomed to nerf.

Hendrik
01-25-2009, 05:45 PM
Yea, already have those; in the meantime, I don't like running out of SP or relying on pots or the generosity of clerics.



1. We have the same starting con, and I need gfl + minos + enhancements + 6 con item to hit 200; OTOH, I haven't eaten a con tome.
2. If you don't think that 20 hp are worth 3 AP...
3. The issue is that it seems like any non-standard build is doomed to nerf because some people think that everyone should play the game the same way, and will whine incessantly about it; think about the LFMs you see giving requirements to join, or the "you don't know how to play" posts here. My build philosophy in this game has always been that con was the easiest stat to correct for from feats and gear, in large part due to the 38 HP you get from the minos, and have built 4 capped characters on that assumption, which is now no longer valid. The change affects DPS builds less (or not at all) since they tend to have spare feats, making this nothing less than a caster nerf. I suppose part of it is that this is the first character I've capped who was not inherently hindered, either by being a 28-point build or from ridiculous game mechanics (monk), and now it is.

Everyone here wants to say "oh, it's just 20 HP" or "it's only 85 SP", as if that means anything out of context; having both those 20 HP and 85 SP have saved more runs than I care to name. The other argument is that I should have built my character differently, but then we're back to changing rules and the cookie-cutter syndrome. What everyone here is saying, starting with the devs and ending with the forum trolls, is that I play differently and so I deserve anything I get. Screw.

Two lessons to be learned here;

1. Play by the rules. You knew that Minos was broken and was going to be fixed. Don't complain because it finally is.

2. Don't build characters around specific, broken/exploited, gear.

feynman
01-25-2009, 05:52 PM
And there's a whole group of people that say any FoTM build is doomed to nerf.

Yea; we call that enforcing the cookie-cut builds: "What? You found a way to win that we didn't expect? How dare you follow the rules?!"

Korvek
01-25-2009, 06:19 PM
My build philosophy in this game has always been that con was the easiest stat to correct for from feats and gear, in large part due to the 38 HP you get from the minos, and have built 4 capped characters on that assumption, which is now no longer valid.

1. Do you have 150 Argonessen favor? That's another 10 right there. Now that I check, I have eaten a +2 Con tome. Must have gotten it as an end reward from something or other...

2. I found other things I preferred with those 3 APs.

3. I have nearly the exact same hit point philosophy as you. The stats that I don't worry much about on any of my characters are Con and Wisdom (save for monk splash-types). I've had that philosophy since before Toughness enhancements even existed and I stand by it now. The 18 Hit points you'll be losing from the Minos change shouldn't kill you (er, either figuratively or literally). There's basically two options here: Shelve the character like you mentioned, or adapt. I recommend adapting. Just work to take less damage, keep means of healing yourself quickly (Which I assume you already do), etc.

sephiroth1084
01-26-2009, 01:06 AM
Okay, so your sorc had 18 HP from the Minos Legens before Mod 8, at which point, a flaw in how the item worked in conjunction with a new enhancement line allowed you to gain an additional 20 HP that was not intended by the developers.

That 20 HP is fairly insignificant any way you look at it. Now, it may be so insignificant that the devs could overlook it, but then they'd also overlook the 80 that dwarven fighters would be getting as a result. Seriously though, if your character goes from good to bad over 20 HP, you need to rethink your character. What do you have, just enough HP to survive a failed save vs. a DBF, and now, instead of dropping to 1 or 2 HP, you'll be at below -9?

I have never said this on the forums with any intent but to help a new player out, but , REROLL!

Desteria
01-26-2009, 02:42 AM
Or my spell pen feat does the same thing, or the fact that I "wasted" points taking CHA to 20, or that I went drow instead of human, or that I put points in dex so that I can tumble between spells so the cleric doesn't have to heal me so much... you can break it down any way you want, the fact is that there are multiple ways to accomplish the goal, and mine was good until the devs made an arbitrary decision to make it bad.

So I am going to have another capped toon gathering dust because the rules changed, and the only suggestions anyone has are to level a cookie-cutter build and play more to get decent gear. The respec mechanism would be a workable solution, if not perfect, but I don't see it happening.

Highten effetcs DC spell pen effetcs passign SR the 2 are not the same catgory the 20 cha is how ever 20 cha vr's 18 is a 1 pt dirference, highten vrs no highten on PK is a 4 point diference, thus a much bigger effect also it stack nicly with the 20 cha..

Just so you know I'm not saying your stat build is bad or your race choice is, I personaly perfer human but i belive drow are not a bad option either, I have never said your stats are bad choices, TBH when i mad ea drow to replace dest she has 20 cha 12 con as well, and there is a decent chance where i to make another drow sorc today they would have 20 cha 12 con, might push it to 14 but mostlikly 12 I HATE payign 2 build points a stats point for stats that get a minus to them.

I have said MT is a usless feat for a sorc and I stand by that, I also consider FoP while not usless WAY less important then about 6-9 other feats and I have said that.

tecnicaly by usles si mean soo far down the list of good feats that unless you get about 12+ feats on a sorc soem how you should never take it.

Desteria
01-26-2009, 02:54 AM
Yea, already have those; in the meantime, I don't like running out of SP or relying on pots or the generosity of clerics.

all the other feats while not givign you a directly bigger blue number give you an effective bigger blue number, much more efective bigger then MT/IMT ever can.

EMP/MAX do it buy increasign your Damage per SP ratio such that to do the same dmaage you use MUCH less SP efective gainign the diference as more SP to spend for same dmaage done.

Extend does it by requierign less recasts, it;s the easyes to fgure out numaricaly and by far teh buiggest as soon as you start takgin in to accoutn extended empmaxed FW's since each oen is liek 60 sp saving over casting a second.

Highten does it by makign sure mobs fail there saves the first time removign the need to recast also makes soem rather low level spells VERY effective at end game, (web, hypnotism), and with improved hightening, you can save a toen on those low spelsl as well.

Spell pen/GTR spell pen do it by saving you from recasting spells thuse more efective SP again.

All of them except Extend also save your party efective SP on the cleric because mobs that are dead through DPS/insta or CC sooner stop hitting your tanks so the cleric heals less.



1. We have the same starting con, and I need gfl + minos + enhancements + 6 con item to hit 200; OTOH, I haven't eaten a con tome.
2. If you don't think that 20 hp are worth 3 AP...
3. The issue is that it seems like any non-standard build is doomed to nerf because some people think that everyone should play the game the same way, and will whine incessantly about it; think about the LFMs you see giving requirements to join, or the "you don't know how to play" posts here. My build philosophy in this game has always been that con was the easiest stat to correct for from feats and gear, in large part due to the 38 HP you get from the minos, and have built 4 capped characters on that assumption, which is now no longer valid. The change affects DPS builds less (or not at all) since they tend to have spare feats, making this nothing less than a caster nerf. I suppose part of it is that this is the first character I've capped who was not inherently hindered, either by being a 28-point build or from ridiculous game mechanics (monk), and now it is.

Everyone here wants to say "oh, it's just 20 HP" or "it's only 85 SP", as if that means anything out of context; having both those 20 HP and 85 SP have saved more runs than I care to name. The other argument is that I should have built my character differently, but then we're back to changing rules and the cookie-cutter syndrome. What everyone here is saying, starting with the devs and ending with the forum trolls, is that I play differently and so I deserve anything I get. Screw.

Just a note on the dps classes thing PALLYS are HURT a LOT more then caster on this.. Pallys have always been a HEAVY feat starved class, and a class that WANTS HP especaly if they are going for DPS sicne that menas doign 5 dmaage to them selves every 3 seconds + mostlikly havign lower AC, because they will be TWF and will NOT have the stats to spread around for uber AC.

Desteria
01-26-2009, 02:56 AM
Yea; we call that enforcing the cookie-cut builds: "What? You found a way to win that we didn't expect? How dare you follow the rules?!"

actully tecnicaly you found a way to win that was NOT following the rules and they even said logn ago BEFORE every race even had toughness AP's that it was NOT followign the rules... SO how dare you break the rule then whine when they finaly fix them.

Desteria
01-26-2009, 02:59 AM
Okay, so your sorc had 18 HP from the Minos Legens before Mod 8, at which point, a flaw in how the item worked in conjunction with a new enhancement line allowed you to gain an additional 20 HP that was not intended by the developers.

That 20 HP is fairly insignificant any way you look at it. Now, it may be so insignificant that the devs could overlook it, but then they'd also overlook the 80 that dwarven fighters would be getting as a result. Seriously though, if your character goes from good to bad over 20 HP, you need to rethink your character. What do you have, just enough HP to survive a failed save vs. a DBF, and now, instead of dropping to 1 or 2 HP, you'll be at below -9?

AND if thats the case I suggest the fire sheild spell OR scrolls both would save you, combined with Fire prot it basicaly = zero DBFB damage just oen istance where the low HP can hurt and a solution to it.

smatt
01-26-2009, 03:03 AM
Yea, already have those; in the meantime, I don't like running out of SP or relying on pots or the generosity of clerics.



1. We have the same starting con, and I need gfl + minos + enhancements + 6 con item to hit 200; OTOH, I haven't eaten a con tome.
2. If you don't think that 20 hp are worth 3 AP...
3. The issue is that it seems like any non-standard build is doomed to nerf because some people think that everyone should play the game the same way, and will whine incessantly about it; think about the LFMs you see giving requirements to join, or the "you don't know how to play" posts here. My build philosophy in this game has always been that con was the easiest stat to correct for from feats and gear, in large part due to the 38 HP you get from the minos, and have built 4 capped characters on that assumption, which is now no longer valid. The change affects DPS builds less (or not at all) since they tend to have spare feats, making this nothing less than a caster nerf. I suppose part of it is that this is the first character I've capped who was not inherently hindered, either by being a 28-point build or from ridiculous game mechanics (monk), and now it is.

Everyone here wants to say "oh, it's just 20 HP" or "it's only 85 SP", as if that means anything out of context; having both those 20 HP and 85 SP have saved more runs than I care to name. The other argument is that I should have built my character differently, but then we're back to changing rules and the cookie-cutter syndrome. What everyone here is saying, starting with the devs and ending with the forum trolls, is that I play differently and so I deserve anything I get. Screw.


I understand that you feel "betrayed" and "dismayed" that your build is now going to be completely worthless. But if it was THAT close anyways.. well......... Many peopel have offered some very good fixes for you... Need more SP points because of a dropped feat... Craft a shroud SP item.... That's 300 SP right there! And wiz 6, (not sure what SP item you're using now). Need more HP? craft a shroud HP item... bam 45 hp right there! Need more HP, which you would anyway, in end game content you're dying like a dog with 200... Get a con tome.... Dude, I hate to say it but you're simply defeating yourself, by instantly saying every option isn't an option.

It is what it is... and it seems that a lot of peoples toons are taking a hit from it..... It's not THAT big of a deal....

Lorien_the_First_One
01-26-2009, 06:59 AM
oh listen to the power gamers whine.... !

lol, have you read the thread? I think you will note that the "power gamers" are actually saying the OP is missing the boat here....

Lorien_the_First_One
01-26-2009, 07:06 AM
Or my spell pen feat does the same thing

The fact that you think spell pen and highten do the same thing is .... shocking lol.


So I am going to have another capped toon gathering dust because the rules changed, and the only suggestions anyone has are to level a cookie-cutter build and play more to get decent gear. The respec mechanism would be a workable solution, if not perfect, but I don't see it happening.

"you all have 8 GS" "you all have cookie cutter builds" ... you don't read at all what we say do you?

Fine, if a handful of HP breaks your char, retire them, but many people in this thread successfully play less than "ideal" chars and don't have stacks of T3 GS items.


Yea; we call that enforcing the cookie-cut builds: "What? You found a way to win that we didn't expect? How dare you follow the rules?!"

Dude, you broke the rule. They came out early on and said that it shouldn't work that way and they reserved the right to fix it.

Dracolich
01-26-2009, 03:22 PM
All I know is we heard all the same B!tching and Moaning from people who exploited the Evasion and Medium armor bug. How many Batman Paladin builds were scrapped long ago. I for one had to shelve my Paladin/Rogue because of it. Did I come on here yelling at Turbine for correcting the issue, no I did not. I knew I was wrong for taking advantage of a game flaw.

The same holds true for me on my opinion of the Khopesh. In that case people arent taking advantage of a game bug they are taking advantage of a design flaw. It will never be changed but it does not stop me from complaining about it ;).

Milolyen
01-26-2009, 03:56 PM
I am trying to figure out how he has so few hps.

20 - start
64 - 16 lvls *4 per lvl
64 - con bonus ((12 starting con + 6 con item)18 con for a +4 * 16)
30 - Greater false life
-------
178 without Minos/enhancements
18 - Minos
-------
196 - with Minos/without enhancements
20
-------
216 - should be current hps

Then with this change and you not picking up a toughness feat
198
Then if you pick up toughness and ehancements
236 hps - at lvl 16

Sorry Fey but not seeing how you can say this change would drop you to only 150 hps. You forget to put con item back on after takeing it off or something? You also are not going to find me feeling sorry for you that you will go from 216 hps to 198 hps at lvl 16 due to this change that we have known was going to happen. How many SP does IMT give? How many SP do you have? Is that really worth not getting 18hps + 20hps from enhancements?

Milolyen

feynman
01-26-2009, 06:20 PM
I am trying to figure out how he has so few hps.

20 - start
64 - 16 lvls *4 per lvl
64 - con bonus ((12 starting con + 6 con item)18 con for a +4 * 16)
30 - Greater false life
-------
178 without Minos/enhancements
18 - Minos
-------
196 - with Minos/without enhancements
20
-------
216 - should be current hps

Sitting at 206; not sure where those 10 are missing.



Then with this change and you not picking up a toughness feat
198
Then if you pick up toughness and ehancements
236 hps - at lvl 16

Sorry Fey but not seeing how you can say this change would drop you to only 150 hps. You forget to put con item back on after takeing it off or something? You also are not going to find me feeling sorry for you that you will go from 216 hps to 198 hps at lvl 16 due to this change that we have known was going to happen. How many SP does IMT give? How many SP do you have? Is that really worth not getting 18hps + 20hps from enhancements?

Milolyen

With MT, I run 2045 SP; to take the toughness feat, I am going to have to drop another feat, either max, emp, spell pen, MT,

Without the toughness feat, I lose 38 hp, so technically I would be at 168.

MT = 85 SP; I do not have IMT.

Let me list a few things that would make this acceptable:

1. If there was a respec mechanism.
2. If GS items could be taken apart to retrieve at least the shroud ingredients.
3. If I had any confidence that the rules would not change again at a later date.

This is not a death-knell for the build, but it changes it from an optimized (yes, kind of min/max'd) solo build to a party squishy; I really need to switch out at least 4 spells and 1 or 2 feats, and even then, my main character will revert back to my 28-point halfling, whose build I will not post out of deathly fear that it will be nerfed next.

ahpook
01-26-2009, 07:09 PM
Sitting at 206; not sure where those 10 are missing.



With MT, I run 2045 SP; to take the toughness feat, I am going to have to drop another feat, either max, emp, spell pen, MT,

Without the toughness feat, I lose 38 hp, so technically I would be at 168.

Quit being intentionally thick. You lose 20 HP (and get refunded 3 AP). You can still wear the helm. Unless you think 20 HP and Heavy Fort are not worth the item slot and decide to quit wearing it. BUT that that is not the same as saying you lose 38 HP. It just isn't.

xman26
01-26-2009, 11:30 PM
I'll repost my post cleaned up some.

Turbine has done it again, an over reaction to there own screw up. INstead of doing like say, programing in that if the user takes off the helmet, they lose the HP from toughness and AP Touchness based enhancements until the helmet was put back on, they go and force every single paying person to have to redo their feats and enhancments.

Dracolich
01-26-2009, 11:41 PM
I'll repost my post cleaned up some.

Turbine has done it again, an over reaction to there own screw up. INstead of doing like say, programing in that if the user takes off the helmet, they lose the HP from toughness and AP Touchness based enhancements until the helmet was put back on, they go and force every single paying person to have to redo their feats and enhancments.

They already lose the HP when taking the helmet off. The item only emulates a feat it doesnt grant you the feat. Thus you technically do not meet the pre-req's to take the action points.

I dont see the big deal. If you werent exploiting the mess up then you shouldnt be upset. Well in my opinion you shouldnt be since it doesnt effect you. If you were exploiting it then you should have to change. Otherwise make items that give the Mental toughness feat and add some action points for those for me to exploit by not taking the feat. Or how about all those spell pen items give me the spell pen feat and the ability to take all the action points without having to spend a feat slot.

I suppose they should leave all the other bugs in the game too. Just because this one benefits the few who are exploiting it.

sephiroth1084
01-26-2009, 11:46 PM
I'll repost my post cleaned up some.

Turbine has done it again, an over reaction to there own screw up. INstead of doing like say, programing in that if the user takes off the helmet, they lose the HP from toughness and AP Touchness based enhancements until the helmet was put back on, they go and force every single paying person to have to redo their feats and enhancments.

Actually, you do lose the HP from the helm and enhancements if you remove it; however, it had been stated long ago that the helm was not supposed to enable characters to take the enhancements for toughness. They fixed a bug. They did not nerf anything. And where is the overreaction? They corrected the problem. Maybe they should have left is at 2+1/level so that it'd grant 22 HP at level 20, but it was probably much easier to code as just a flat 20 HP, which is fine by me: you now gain more HP from level 11-17 than you would have had, and only lose 2 HP from 19-20.

Feynman, there is a respec mechanism: go speak to Fred, have him suck your brain, and take Toughness. Or, and this is probably a better idea, go reroll the character and take some more Con at the start or go human for a bonus feat, or splash a level of wizard for a bonus feat. I can't be bothered to read more of your drivel, but you listed 4 feats out of the 6 you should have. What are the other 2?

xman26
01-26-2009, 11:55 PM
Actually, you do lose the HP from the helm and enhancements if you remove it; however, it had been stated long ago that the helm was not supposed to enable characters to take the enhancements for toughness. They fixed a bug. They did not nerf anything. And where is the overreaction? They corrected the problem. Maybe they should have left is at 2+1/level so that it'd grant 22 HP at level 20, but it was probably much easier to code as just a flat 20 HP, which is fine by me: you now gain more HP from level 11-17 than you would have had, and only lose 2 HP from 19-20.

Feynman, there is a respec mechanism: go speak to Fred, have him suck your brain, and take Toughness. Or, and this is probably a better idea, go reroll the character and take some more Con at the start or go human for a bonus feat, or splash a level of wizard for a bonus feat. I can't be bothered to read more of your drivel, but you listed 4 feats out of the 6 you should have. What are the other 2?

Its a bug that has been in game for 2+ years now. At this point it may as well stay for 2 reasons. First and foremost, fixing it now screws over a good based of you paying customers who built around it without taking toughness. 2. It didn't break anything, it didn't hurt anything and didn't in anyway affect the game negatively in anyway. Where as actual quest bugs are still in game after 1, 2,3+ years now and have yet to be fixed let along addressed. Yeah this was a really HUGE pressing issue that needed addressing.

feynman
01-27-2009, 12:18 AM
Actually, you do lose the HP from the helm and enhancements if you remove it; however, it had been stated long ago that the helm was not supposed to enable characters to take the enhancements for toughness. They fixed a bug. They did not nerf anything. And where is the overreaction? They corrected the problem. Maybe they should have left is at 2+1/level so that it'd grant 22 HP at level 20, but it was probably much easier to code as just a flat 20 HP, which is fine by me: you now gain more HP from level 11-17 than you would have had, and only lose 2 HP from 19-20.

Feynman, there is a respec mechanism: go speak to Fred, have him suck your brain, and take Toughness. Or, and this is probably a better idea, go reroll the character and take some more Con at the start or go human for a bonus feat, or splash a level of wizard for a bonus feat. I can't be bothered to read more of your drivel, but you listed 4 feats out of the 6 you should have. What are the other 2?

Blah, blah, blah, "You're a moron because you didn't build your character exactly like I did!"

Did someone think that I asked for advice here? I didn't. This character will not be rerolled, will not respec to take toughness; it's just silly. This character will, however, become a shroud farmer, because after the neutering- I mean, fix, it will no longer be my strongest capped character, but 3rd, only edging out my monk.

Actually, this has already happened because I have already started respeccing in anticipation. I have no illusions that anything said here influences the game in any way; if it did, the buggy ladders would have been the first thing ever fixed and we would have druids instead of monks. I do however have a problem with the "uber-gamer" cheerleaders that applaud fixing the bugs that worked in our favor rather than the dozens of issues that were problematical.

For all that, this is the best game around, but DMs who insist on rewriting history because you found a way around their puzzle or trap that they didn't expect usually find themselves gaming alone. Railroading DMs are bad enough, but this is double jeopardy, and it's pathetic.

sephiroth1084
01-27-2009, 01:23 AM
B*****ing.


and moaning

The fact remains that anyone who built around something that was admitted to be bugged made a mistake. It's not some conspiracy among the devs or less casual players, it was a known issue.

Would I like it to stay as is? Sure! I'd love to continue getting 20 extra HP on my wizard, but I didn't plan around this. I got the Minos Legens because it rocks anyway--the 20 bonus HP I'm getting will have been a nice little extra for a few months, and when it goes away, maybe I'll drop a feat for toughness, maybe not. In either case, I'll not come here complaining that my character is ruined because I lost 20 HP, or because I made the mistake of building around an admittedly broken and slated for fixing mechanic/item.

If you don't want to respec and don't want to reroll, then you've nothing to complain about since your character is obviously fine the way he is, or you are just too stubborn to do anything meaningful about your character's inherent issues and instead choose to blame someone else for your mistakes.

Feynman, you say your guy is optimized, others here contest that. Honestly, I don't give a **** whether it is or not--it's not my character--but if you feel that you're being gimped because you lost 20 HP (the equivalent of having your Rage run out), then you need to rethink some things.

Desteria
01-27-2009, 02:39 AM
Sitting at 206; not sure where those 10 are missing.

he did not include the Agens of A 10hp favor reward as you kepe quoting suck low hp numbers i gues she assumed you did not have it.


Without the toughness feat, I lose 38 hp, so technically I would be at 168.

you onyl lose 20 HP for the AP's IF you CHOSE to take of the helm wich is STILL an excelent item at 20 hp and heavy fort.... did you not wear the helm BEFORE the AP's were added back when it was only 18 hp and heavy fort OH wait we cna go even further back to before level 16, when the helm was only 16hp and heavy fort and still considered the best helm around... Every one of my characters equiped it at level 11 if theye were not llaready above that level when it came out, then it was only 13hp and heavy fort and they were all still VERY happy with that.

SO tecnicaly when the change goes live you will be at 188hp..... TBH less then i'd like on a caster BUT you have YET to eat a con tome OR use a shroud HP item so frankly thats just abouyt right for a drow sorc, to not be squish you need to plan &/or work at it to get your HP up.
(plan= buy high con, work = gets items liek GFL, minos, con tome[favor? thats what my sorc did, since it was much reasyer to roll on cha tomes then con tomes], shroud HP item)

Desteria
01-27-2009, 02:42 AM
I'll repost my post cleaned up some.

Turbine has done it again, an over reaction to there own screw up. INstead of doing like say, programing in that if the user takes off the helmet, they lose the HP from toughness and AP Touchness based enhancements until the helmet was put back on, they go and force every single paying person to have to redo their feats and enhancments.

as has bene said many times by more then one person that would be a MAJOR code change, with much greater possiblities to cause bugs or massive lag, this fix is elegant, and simple they change oen item not the whole error checkign mecanics for AP/feats etc.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-27-2009, 06:36 AM
Blah, blah, blah, "You're a moron because you didn't build your character exactly like I did!"

You don't actually read what people say do you? You just throw out "you all have cookiecutter builds" and "I don't have 100 GS items". You don't have to build your char like everyone else...but when you whine about not enough hp people point out your options. don't like those options? fine...they you have less HP. That's the choice YOU make.


Actually, this has already happened because I have already started respeccing in anticipation. I have no illusions that anything said here influences the game in any way; if it did, the buggy ladders would have been the first thing ever fixed and we would have druids instead of monks. I do however have a problem with the "uber-gamer" cheerleaders that applaud fixing the bugs that worked in our favor rather than the dozens of issues that were problematical.

Lots of ppl wanted monks before druids, druids had more complex coding issues anyway - without shapeshift they don't belong in the game. There was a HUGE effort on buggy ladders a few patches ago that fixed hundreds of stuck spots and ladders, we were even given insight into what was causing the ladder bug. Uber gamer and cheerleaders? Naw, they left the thread laughing a long time ago.


For all that, this is the best game around, but DMs who insist on rewriting history because you found a way around their puzzle or trap that they didn't expect usually find themselves gaming alone. Railroading DMs are bad enough, but this is double jeopardy, and it's pathetic.

You found a way to make your D20 roll D21...you cheated, the DM just didn't stop you right away, now he has. It's all on you, a sneaky player, this one isn't the DM.

That's not saying the DDO DM hasn't changed the rules... they real HP/toughness nerf was a few months ago when they nerfed toughness for dwarven barbs. The HV change a couple years ago, also a real rule change. But this...this is a bug fix.

xman26
01-27-2009, 07:47 AM
You don't actually read what people say do you? You just throw out "you all have cookiecutter builds" and "I don't have 100 GS items". You don't have to build your char like everyone else...but when you whine about not enough hp people point out your options. don't like those options? fine...they you have less HP. That's the choice YOU make.



Lots of ppl wanted monks before druids, druids had more complex coding issues anyway - without shapeshift they don't belong in the game. There was a HUGE effort on buggy ladders a few patches ago that fixed hundreds of stuck spots and ladders, we were even given insight into what was causing the ladder bug. Uber gamer and cheerleaders? Naw, they left the thread laughing a long time ago.



You found a way to make your D20 roll D21...you cheated, the DM just didn't stop you right away, now he has. It's all on you, a sneaky player, this one isn't the DM.

That's not saying the DDO DM hasn't changed the rules... they real HP/toughness nerf was a few months ago when they nerfed toughness for dwarven barbs. The HV change a couple years ago, also a real rule change. But this...this is a bug fix.


Funny you bring up coding, Crytek's B Team can code better than Turbine AAA team. After 2+ years and so many actuall game affecting bugs that have yet to be fixed, let alone be addressed that DO affect this game adversly, they choose to fix a bug that hurt nothing, affected game play in no way what so ever. Turbine seriously has their bug fixing priorities screwed up.

The supposed FIXED ladder bug hasn't been completely fixed. Abbot is still bugged. The shroud still has no blade fragments. Air Elementals are seriously bugged. I could go on, but I truely hope you get the point.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-27-2009, 08:30 AM
Funny you bring up coding, Crytek's B Team can code better than Turbine AAA team. After 2+ years and so many actuall game affecting bugs that have yet to be fixed, let alone be addressed that DO affect this game adversly, they choose to fix a bug that hurt nothing, affected game play in no way what so ever. Turbine seriously has their bug fixing priorities screwed up.

Your whine about programming abilities is mean spirited and otherwise unworthy of comment.

Well they took a year to fix it, so that's a reasonable response time to a low priority bug. It's also a bug that's probably REALLY easy to fix and therefore should get slotted in before some other larger but more complex issues. Really all they have to do to fix this one is while at trainer at another "if" statement and then issue a giant query once to order a reset of enhancements for people with the enhancement but not the feat when the new mod goes live. Sometimes it makes sense to deal with 10 nusence bugs in the same time you MIGHT be able to deal with one big headache.


The supposed FIXED ladder bug hasn't been completely fixed.

Well if you paid attention to the original discussion on the ladder hitch you will understand that it isn't a systemic bug as much as it is a location by location bug. Many have been fixed. You have been asked to bug report hitches you find, do so. While ocassionally annoying, this isn't game breaking either.


Abbot is still bugged.

Bugged how? You mean sucky and useless to play for most people? Yup...oh, and we have been told that is being reworked in the next mod.


The shroud still has no blade fragments.

Yup, shroud collectables are useless... but then that falls into non game breaking, and you don't want them to fix non game breaking stuff right?


Air Elementals are seriously bugged.

Bugged how? I've never noticed any Air Ele bug in any way. Are they annoying and operating differently than in PnP? Yup. Do I wish they changed how they worked? Yup. Are they working as intended? Yup. Sorry, not bugged, just annoying by design. Kind of like the stun effect on WF from rusties. Dumb but working as intended.


I could go on, but I truely hope you get the point.

Would the point be that this was a good fix and well overdue?

xman26
01-27-2009, 08:56 AM
Your whine about programming abilities is mean spirited and otherwise unworthy of comment.

If a spade is a spade, call the **** thing a spade. I dont bite my tongue, never have, never well and call things as they are.


Well they took a year to fix it, so that's a reasonable response time to a low priority bug. It's also a bug that's probably REALLY easy to fix and therefore should get slotted in before some other larger but more complex issues. Really all they have to do to fix this one is while at trainer at another "if" statement and then issue a giant query once to order a reset of enhancements for people with the enhancement but not the feat when the new mod goes live. Sometimes it makes sense to deal with 10 nusence bugs in the same time you MIGHT be able to deal with one big headache.

No, they took 2+ years to fix it for something that, in your words, was a relatively easy code fix. If it was that easy, they should have fixed with the mod/patch update that followed the orchard mod.




Well if you paid attention to the original discussion on the ladder hitch you will understand that it isn't a systemic bug as much as it is a location by location bug. Many have been fixed. You have been asked to bug report hitches you find, do so. While ocassionally annoying, this isn't game breaking either.

And neither wa something that has been in game for 2+ years now.



Bugged how? You mean sucky and useless to play for most people? Yup...oh, and we have been told that is being reworked in the next mod.

No, in that it is non completable at times because of game coding, IE BUGGED!


Yup, shroud collectables are useless... but then that falls into non game breaking, and you don't want them to fix non game breaking stuff right?

Again, teh Minos legion wasn't game breaking either, so why fix it by your own standards?


Bugged how? I've never noticed any Air Ele bug in any way. Are they annoying and operating differently than in PnP? Yup. Do I wish they changed how they worked? Yup. Are they working as intended? Yup. Sorry, not bugged, just annoying by design. Kind of like the stun effect on WF from rusties. Dumb but working as intended.

I'm sorry, I'll simply disagree wit you whole heartidly here. Air Eles are broke, need fixed or removed from the game. But niether will happen because Turbine would rather fix a Helm they should have fixed 2+ years ago. And if their entent for them was for them t be this way, then please go back to my previous post and my responce to you at the top.


Would the point be that this was a good fix and well overdue?

No, the point being it should have been left alone. Given bugs that adversly affect game play get ignored routinely by Turbine, why screw with one that didn't? I know, because this actually helped your paying customer base where as the others make them either not want to run quests or quit the game entirely.