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Garth_of_Sarlona
02-02-2009, 03:19 PM
I remember when Tempest Spine was quite tricky because the blackguard elves had really high AC and you actually had to spec to hit them (i.e. use +5 weapons instead of your +2 holy).

Then one day the ACs on all the mobs were nerfed, and now pretty much everyone runs around with power attack on, all the calculations on dps I see on the forums assume you 'hit on everything except a 1' - so what's the point of having a high to-hit?

With the addition of the Kensai prestige enhancements, Kensai become warriors who are forced to specialise in attack bonus boosts and weapon focus feats to give increasingly useless to-hit numbers given the current level of ACs.

Please make the Kensai set of enhancements worth something vs the barbarian dps machines by introducing a set of mobs with very high ACs (in the 50s or 60s). This will also make people play more tactically and use destruction and sunder, and indirectly help fighters who have specialised in these feats.

Cheers,

Garth

tman
02-02-2009, 03:28 PM
/signed.

Increase the AC and lower the HP. It is a delicate balance, but agree both need to be tweaked.

Tman

Raithe
02-02-2009, 03:35 PM
I agree with the problem and solution presented here, fully, but there are additional problems that are related:

1) Casters have largely been given a buffing role in the small amount of high level content that exists. This means that the most useful thing by far they can accomplish is to make sure melee have haste and greater heroism, and that is pretty much the first priority for spellpoints regardless of what else happens. I don't know how we go from "casters = overpowered and dominant" to "we only need 1 caster" in such a short amount of time. Some sort of balance needs to be found.

2) I said it before and I'll say it again... bard enhancements are a bit overpowered, and especially the prestige enhancements. It is largely because of bards that most players would have to be cursed, enervated, and fatigued to start missing on a 2.

For groups who don't have all the equipment and knowledge of stacking bonuses that the average 3 year vet does, ACs on mobs may actually be a little high - it's the paradox that is created when you have a gear-and-grind oriented game system.

Just my opinions, of course.

Thrudh
02-02-2009, 03:39 PM
I agree that mob AC SHOULD matter... I don't want to see everything running around with a high AC, but everyone shouldn't be hitting EVERYTHING on a 1.

negative
02-02-2009, 03:41 PM
I think the key words here are "a set of mobs". This is not something all mobs need, but it would be nice if some mobs were like this. The problem with tempest spine back in the day, was that it was the only raid, and the quest is full of blackguards. Moderation is key.

The monks in monastary begin to come close to this, they have a higher than normal AC, though you probably won't notice it unless your gear isn't so great. Well that and you'd have to actually spend the time to fight them.

Roman
02-02-2009, 03:47 PM
This would probably increase the popularity of Destruction on DT armor, and maybe people would actually bother crafting a Sundering Ooze GS weapon. Thats +9 to hit right there and the whole party benefits from the effect so only 1 melee needs to be doing it.

I Don't see any long term benefit from just raising mob AC.

VirieSquichie
02-03-2009, 11:17 AM
Inflation is inflation...doesn't matter if this month it's the mobs' AC, next month it's our to-hits, the month after it's the mobs' HP, then our damage output, then their saves...

I've got a random-loot bow in one of my banks that does 10d6 (+ something-or-other) on a crit. I think it's only level 10 or 12. And that's just random loot. For that to even be possible on a non-artifact is ludicrous. For monsters to be engineered so that isn't severe injury is insane. But hey, that's the game we play. The only way to fix it now would be a total reworking of the loot progression, and that isn't happening to an established product.

EinarMal
02-03-2009, 12:16 PM
Please make the Kensai set of enhancements worth something vs the barbarian dps machines by introducing a set of mobs with very high ACs (in the 50s or 60s). This will also make people play more tactically and use destruction and sunder, and indirectly help fighters who have specialised in these feats.

Cheers,

Garth

Honestly Kensai stacks up very well against frenzied berserker, if the powersurge ability is 1 min in duration.

Kensai (Damage Enhancers)
+11 to strength
+1 critical range
+6 GWS + Enh.
Fighter Haste Boost

Barbarian
+12 to strength
+2 critical multiplier (on 19-20)

Kensai actually will out DPS a FB unless they take damage in frenzy mode. That is without touching mob AC.

Kensai fighters will be good except when compared to Tempest Rangers which crush everyone against FE.

For those of you who think a Barbarian can frenzy or double frenzy 24/7 I would suggest looking at the numbers. A TWF Barbarian would be taking in an additional ~400 damage a minute when hasted (about 200 swings a minute per hand). If they double frenzy it is an astounding ~800 damage a minute extra damage on top of no AC.

EinarMal
02-03-2009, 12:25 PM
Please make the Kensai set of enhancements worth something vs the barbarian dps machines by introducing a set of mobs with very high ACs (in the 50s or 60s). This will also make people play more tactically and use destruction and sunder, and indirectly help fighters who have specialised in these feats.

Cheers,

Garth

You should have said Tempest Ranger DPS machines, they will far outpace Barbarians in the next Mod if STWF is implemented as expected to be another 10% boost in attacks. With 5 favored enemies at +14 damage, ram's might, tempest, and STWF forget it Barbarians will be WAY behind unless you stack frenzy abilities and bribe the cleric with a stack of heal scrolls.

joker965
02-03-2009, 02:24 PM
IMO the situation is this.

1. 80% of mobs at higher level have way too many HP.
2. The armor classes need to be adjusted generally. Only really powerful bosses should have both a crazy high AC and tons of HP. And then only if it makes sense. I.E. a really high level drow fighter as a boss should have an awsome AC but not a ton of HP.

#3 The real problem... The mobs at high level should have way more offensive power in both meele and powers. If this were the case then the HP would not have to be so inflated to make it hard.

The balance is supposed to be like this... Almost every monster should have a specific countering PC type.

Some mobs have really high AC and low HP with a couple spell powers thrown in. A high to-hit character does well here.

Some have huge HP but their AC is kinda sucky. They also do massive meele damage. A high DPS PC is good here and saves don't matter.

Some have average HP and AC but are crazy spell hurlers. Paladin, monk, rogue...

Some are just mega evil... cleric, paladin

on and on

Chaos000
02-03-2009, 03:18 PM
#3 The real problem... The mobs at high level should have way more offensive power in both meele and powers. If this were the case then the HP would not have to be so inflated to make it hard.

Which increases the benefit of taking them down faster. Faster you take them down, the less offensive power in terms of melee and spells gets dealt to the party.

Currently the mobs to-hit are inflated as well, in the sense that if you don't have your AC in the mid 50's you're bound to get hit often. Anything lower than 40 AC then a monster will only miss on a 1. If 28-35 AC amounted to anything, then barbarians wouldn't be running around with robes on.

Angelus_dead
02-03-2009, 04:09 PM
#3 The real problem... The mobs at high level should have way more offensive power in both meele and powers. If this were the case then the HP would not have to be so inflated to make it hard.
That makes sense if the game allows variable time advancement, such that you can slow down the simulation when a fight starts.

That's what happens in D&D, but there is no reasonable way to add such a feature to DDO.

KaKa
02-03-2009, 04:48 PM
I think they are actually gonna try and move in this direction. In mod 8 we have some mobs with very high AC on the higher difficulties, problem is most people are not running them above normal usually but that's a different topic.

Try fighting a named drow monk in the monastery on elite they are brutal, I fought him with my barbarian and with an average of 40 to hit I was missing quite regularly.

So I believe higher AC will be more prevalent in the future. Not like Arratrikos where you can hit with a very low to hit.

Raithe
02-03-2009, 05:22 PM
#3 The real problem... The mobs at high level should have way more offensive power in both meele and powers. If this were the case then the HP would not have to be so inflated to make it hard.


The game is currently being designed for the grind. Players will figure out the best strategy and replicate it over and over, and the "mega-damage" will see application only 1 or 2 times before it is rendered ineffective. The correct solution would be to not inflate anything, and hope that the content is fun enough to run the first time through. (And then you need to find a way to make your game fun without relying on repetition.)

Also, "save or die" type adventuring was never a very good idea except when coupled with adequate warning information.

Impaqt
02-03-2009, 05:45 PM
I remember when Tempest Spine was quite tricky because the blackguard elves had really high AC and you actually had to spec to hit them (i.e. use +5 weapons instead of your +2 holy).

Then one day the ACs on all the mobs were nerfed, and now pretty much everyone runs around with power attack on, all the calculations on dps I see on the forums assume you 'hit on everything except a 1' - so what's the point of having a high to-hit?

With the addition of the Kensai prestige enhancements, Kensai become warriors who are forced to specialise in attack bonus boosts and weapon focus feats to give increasingly useless to-hit numbers given the current level of ACs.

Please make the Kensai set of enhancements worth something vs the barbarian dps machines by introducing a set of mobs with very high ACs (in the 50s or 60s). This will also make people play more tactically and use destruction and sunder, and indirectly help fighters who have specialised in these feats.

Cheers,

Garth

Did I miss the part of Kensai where they are getting a +10 or 12 to Hit? Cause I dont see how they are going to get significantly higher to hit than most barbs....

Boosting AC to the point where only a select few can hit the mob us a terrible idea. It goes to excessively selective group forming and reduced fun for the casual gamer who doesnt have every bonus available.

Cedrica-the-Bard
02-03-2009, 07:38 PM
I couldn't agree more.

/signed

Cold_Stele
02-04-2009, 07:44 AM
Did I miss the part of Kensai where they are getting a +10 or 12 to Hit? Cause I dont see how they are going to get significantly higher to hit than most barbs....

Obviously you must have ;)

Back on topic though - do you remember that sense of accomplishment you got when a Drow Blackguard went down? Not sure much has matched that since.

Oh and Barbs will still be able to hit, just turn PA off.

Cold_Stele
02-04-2009, 08:00 AM
For those of you who think a Barbarian can frenzy or double frenzy 24/7 I would suggest looking at the numbers. A TWF Barbarian would be taking in an additional ~400 damage a minute when hasted (about 200 swings a minute per hand). If they double frenzy it is an astounding ~800 damage a minute extra damage on top of no AC.

FB is for THF Barbs. TWF Barbs would be crazy to drop Crit Rage for FB. THF FB will do just fine.

BlackSteel
02-04-2009, 08:18 AM
)

For those of you who think a Barbarian can frenzy or double frenzy 24/7 I would suggest looking at the numbers. A TWF Barbarian would be taking in an additional ~400 damage a minute when hasted (about 200 swings a minute per hand). If they double frenzy it is an astounding ~800 damage a minute extra damage on top of no AC.

its ~200 a minute for both hands (100 each), so a TWF would do an average of 400 to self a minute, not 800

Lithic
02-04-2009, 08:35 AM
There was a problem when TSE had the crazy ACs. Anyone else remember the following LFMs:

"TSE, melee must have +10 to hit Action boost" which meant 1 rogue for traps, no barbs or rangers.

Now granted in todays game crazy AC's are not solved in this way. Instead melees surround the mob to immobilize it and swing innefectively until the caster's firewall kills it (Old time-y vampire on elite at lvl 10ish for one).

The biggest problem is the difference between a 54 strength raged barbarian's to hit, and the 30 str paladin's to hit. If the maxed out barb cant hit on a 2, then the non-optimal/not yet raid-loot-loaded builds are hoping for a 20 just to hit, forget critting.

This is pretty much the situation we have right now with spell resist in the vale quests. Either your caster has a Spell pen item, both feats, and all 3 enhancmenets, or you are wasting your spellpoints casting anything but buffs or direct damage.

Garth_of_Sarlona
02-04-2009, 09:38 AM
it's all down to the d20 system - the gap between 'really really bad' and 'really really good' is only 20 wide - so if the devs add mobs with AC in the 60s then mobs with ACs in the 40s become 'hit on a 1' again. The same problem affects player AC and (as someone has already said) spell pen numbers.

I posted a while back about the 'd40' system or a 'd100' system - but DDO is pretty much tied to the d20 system so -meh- what can we do?

Garth

Talon_Moonshadow
02-04-2009, 09:55 AM
I think the key words here are "a set of mobs". This is not something all mobs need, but it would be nice if some mobs were like this. The problem with tempest spine back in the day, was that it was the only raid, and the quest is full of blackguards. Moderation is key.

The monks in monastary begin to come close to this, they have a higher than normal AC, though you probably won't notice it unless your gear isn't so great. Well that and you'd have to actually spend the time to fight them.

I agree with this.
Most of my chars are not full BAB chars. And it would hurt PA, and Manyshot....etc. (Edit: + TWF, +1 W/P Rapiers......things like that. But also Rogues :( And anyone not speced for a high to hit number. So Use in moderation is best IMO.)

But I'm for variety.
Having some mobs needing different tactics is a good thing IMO.

GlassCannon
02-04-2009, 12:33 PM
I'd like to see monsters with 75% fortification seeded throughout quests.

SableShadow
02-04-2009, 02:39 PM
I'd like to see monsters with 75% fortification seeded throughout quests.

I thought they were called "undead" and "constructs"?

Thrudh
02-04-2009, 02:51 PM
This is pretty much the situation we have right now with spell resist in the vale quests. Either your caster has a Spell pen item, both feats, and all 3 enhancmenets, or you are wasting your spellpoints casting anything but buffs or direct damage.

This is a good point...

Emili
02-04-2009, 03:24 PM
There was a problem when TSE had the crazy ACs. Anyone else remember the following LFMs:

"TSE, melee must have +10 to hit Action boost" which meant 1 rogue for traps, no barbs or rangers.

Now granted in todays game crazy AC's are not solved in this way. Instead melees surround the mob to immobilize it and swing innefectively until the caster's firewall kills it (Old time-y vampire on elite at lvl 10ish for one).

The biggest problem is the difference between a 54 strength raged barbarian's to hit, and the 30 str paladin's to hit. If the maxed out barb cant hit on a 2, then the non-optimal/not yet raid-loot-loaded builds are hoping for a 20 just to hit, forget critting.

This is pretty much the situation we have right now with spell resist in the vale quests. Either your caster has a Spell pen item, both feats, and all 3 enhancmenets, or you are wasting your spellpoints casting anything but buffs or direct damage.


That is exactly how I remember it... The common tactic back then was to

1.) take an intimitank... turtled up, hit intimidate ... occasionally swinging a maladoit.
2.) Then all the fighters sporting +10 to-hit Attack boost would lay in on them, Pallys were fine as long as they used the then broken divine favor and were a str build, Barbarians were along for the ride as rage was not very high back then.

note... 3/4 BaB bards/rogues/clerics and such could only hit them on a 20 even under all buffs until the dex was drained enough , by which time most were killed by the fighters. Plus casters back then had it rough also as it predated FW and many persistant aoe spells.

Fighter was knocked down in not only to-hit boost, but class enhancements to AC (Fighter CE) etc... mainly so that other classes could get in on participating in melee.

One problem with that - and your post is related to it - is that fighter as a class lost it's general function... since it is totally and easily replaceable with any other class.

At this point, in the game fighter top to-hit is comparable to ranger (FE), Barbarian (raged less quad) and Pally (DM + DF)... So then, even if you increased mob AC the fighter kensai to-hit bonus would now become a must have for a fighter to be even on par with those other full BaB classes... yet those other full BaB classes maintain on average a better AC, Saves and defensive mitigation for survivability. Only the 3/4 BaB become more docile in such an encounter... while it's probably better to grab a Pally, Barb or Ranger for them before the kensai.

Raithe
02-04-2009, 03:39 PM
This is a good point...

I didn't really think so. The Vale and its quests are excellent examples of diversity as far as spell resistance goes. Some things have none, the scorpions and bats are fairly low SR, while the high SR mobs can still make a maxxed-out caster fail on a 1. The problem here isn't the diversity of the mobs, its the enhancements that basically make their defenses moot. SR is supposed to make a caster waste his spell points to at least some degree, and is supposed to encourage letting melee do their thing.

It hasn't really worked, because of the playerbase and its mentality. They all immediately dump the feats/enhancements they had and all go get spell pen because it makes the current quests easier, even though its entirely useless in some of the game. I think it demonstrates some of the problems developers of this kind of game face. When everything and everyone is min/maxxed (except for a few losers like myself), it's difficult to walk down the center line.

They could definitely raise the bar on AC a bit, IMO, though. At least on some things.

EinarMal
02-04-2009, 07:55 PM
its ~200 a minute for both hands (100 each), so a TWF would do an average of 400 to self a minute, not 800

800 is the double frenzy number... It is 1d3 x 200 per minute hasted or 400 for a single frenzy, or 800 for double frenzy.

Lithic
02-04-2009, 08:12 PM
I'd like to see monsters with 75% fortification seeded throughout quests.

Fortification is the worst possible thing in game. There is NO counter, and it makes one class (rogues) almost completely useless. 25% of the raid devils is bad enough, constructs/slimes/undead are much worse, but to regularly have quests with fortified mobs is BAD, at least until rogues get enhancements or feats to bypass significant fortifications (something along the lines of -25%/50/75 for a cost of 1/2/3).