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joeuhuh
01-30-2009, 11:52 PM
would it be so bad to add a stance say ...
volley stance - you shoot 2 arrows with a -8 atack penalty min requirements bab +9 manyshot

which changes to

improved volley stance decrease the penalty to -4 prereq bab +15

whihc changes to

greater volley stance shoot an aditional arrow in volley stance 3 arrows at -8 to attack -- requires bab 18

i would have the stances have diferent icons so u could have greater volley up or switch to improved volley stance if things were harder to hit u coulld fire less arows with less penalty if u wanted

either a progression of one feat or an expensive 3 feats or a stance granted at bab 9,15, and 18 as part of manyshot wouldnt be something to sniff at

melee gets faster atacks more atacks and power attack stance and ranged is left lfg standing beside the portal wishing it could do some damage and get in a group now i love my meelee toons but i jsut wish i could find some way to be a contributing member of a party with a ranged wepon for more than 20 seconds out of 120 i think something like this would let a ranged toon be something other than somone u had to bring along because they were a guildie

something like this would let bows do decent damage regularly and do great damage when many shot is up

while this is not a rulebook pnp dnd feat neither is the implementation of manyshot which is not a clickie in pnp but allows u to shoot multiple arrows every shot if u wish
with a progressive penalty to attack

barecm
02-01-2009, 07:12 AM
Many shot should be a stance with significant penalties (-8 to hit and -4 damage), should be a max of three arrows and require 2 feats to get it. One feat to get 2 arrows and one feat to get three arrows. Deepwood sniper should have a reduced penalty for this proposed many shot stance as well. Maybe at Deepwood lvl 2 you can reduce the penalty to simply -4 to hit. Deepwood 3 would eliminate the penalty and Deepwood 4 would give a +2 to hit and +4 to damage or a 4th arrow.

Ranged combat should have equal attacks per round as melee.

krud
02-01-2009, 10:48 AM
Ranged combat should have equal attacks per round as melee.

You have to be careful with that one. Too much and you just plink from far away and never take damage. Too little and you get what we have now. A boost is needed, but probably not that much.

BTW - i've been playing around with various ranged casters ever since I started playing DDO. Recently, I made an elf wiz with 8str, 18dex initial stats. At every level so far he has always been better at melee than ranged combat, even with the elven ranged enhancements (except on elite settings, where they both suck). That's pathetic. The number of misses from swinging his sword pales in comparison to the slow RoF for a bow, not to mention all the arrows fired without ever generating an attack roll.

Raithe
02-01-2009, 11:50 AM
BTW - i've been playing around with various ranged casters ever since I started playing DDO. Recently, I made an elf wiz with 8str, 18dex initial stats. At every level so far he has always been better at melee than ranged combat, even with the elven ranged enhancements (except on elite settings, where they both suck). That's pathetic. The number of misses from swinging his sword pales in comparison to the slow RoF for a bow, not to mention all the arrows fired without ever generating an attack roll.

That's interesting, cause I just created a ranger on Khyber to run through Korthos from the tutorial to Stormreach. She had a 16 str and a 15 dex, and I found myself using ranged almost as much as melee. I would suggest that there are some problems with how people are approaching the ranged issue:

1) Ranged needs a high to-hit. You are going to get a limited number of attacks with ranged before a monster closes, it doesn't matter the firing rate. Each of those attacks needs to have a good chance of hitting. Casters, for instance, are not known for their excellent attack bonuses.

2) Ranged still needs strength or special effect. Simply having a high to-hit doesn't cut it. Sneak attack works in special situations, but otherwise bow strength, holy, bane, elemental, wounding, weakening, or the like are pretty much manditory. It's not a game flaw that characters not particularly designed for ranged combat are bad at it.

3) Ranged should not be a full-time style of combat. Is melee a full-time style? Can you hit something with a sword before you get to it?

Before anyone tries to guess... the answer is no.

krud
02-01-2009, 12:24 PM
That's interesting, cause I just created a ranger on Khyber to run through Korthos from the tutorial to Stormreach. She had a 16 str and a 15 dex, and I found myself using ranged almost as much as melee. I would suggest that there are some problems with how people are approaching the ranged issue:

1) Ranged needs a high to-hit. You are going to get a limited number of attacks with ranged before a monster closes, it doesn't matter the firing rate. Each of those attacks needs to have a good chance of hitting. Casters, for instance, are not known for their excellent attack bonuses.

2) Ranged still needs strength or special effect. Simply having a high to-hit doesn't cut it. Sneak attack works in special situations, but otherwise bow strength, holy, bane, elemental, wounding, weakening, or the like are pretty much manditory. It's not a game flaw that characters not particularly designed for ranged combat are bad at it.

3) Ranged should not be a full-time style of combat. Is melee a full-time style? Can you hit something with a sword before you get to it?

Before anyone tries to guess... the answer is no.

My ranged attack bonus with the elf ranged attack and dex enhancements through the low levels was pretty good compared to most melee. I was using acid/frost bows of righteousness to give even more to-hit/damage bonus. I don't miss often with the bow, unless I get that non-registering shot. However, when they did close to melee range I found I could dispatch them much quicker just swinging my vanilla longsword or rapier, with an 8 str, even if I miss quite often. The difference is exclusively due to the RoF vs swing rate. At least -5 to hit and damage on all my melee attacks compared to range and I still take mobs down quicker with the sword, simply because I can swing much faster.

As I get to high levels I switch to effects and take the precision feat, so lack of dps won't be an issue anymore. I'm not expecting to tank, but it was painfully obvious how even with gimp stats I could do better at melee.

barecm
02-01-2009, 12:38 PM
You have to be careful with that one. Too much and you just plink from far away and never take damage. Too little and you get what we have now. A boost is needed, but probably not that much.


But that is how it should be as per the ruleset.

eonfreon
02-01-2009, 01:05 PM
But that is how it should be as per the ruleset.

And does your DM, using the ruleset that works for PnP, allow your ranging character to run around like crazy, kiting the mob, in an enclosed dungeon environment no less, and never take damage, not even allow a to-hit roll to be made against the character?
Long-range combat is very hard to balance in an MMO environment. Make it too powerful and it becomes too easy to take out our enemies with little to no danger to us.
Even as it stands, if I can bear the far slower killing rate, I can take any melee character whose entire ranged feats consist of having Proficiency with the Heavy Repeating Crossbow, and solo many quests with little damage taken.
The only thing that keeps that from happening is the slow kill rate.
Sure, it needs something added to it. But just taking the PnP ruleset and applying it to the game will most likely make it too powerful a combat style.

baddax
02-01-2009, 02:18 PM
would it be so bad to add a stance say ...
volley stance - you shoot 2 arrows with a -8 atack penalty min requirements bab +9 manyshot

which changes to

improved volley stance decrease the penalty to -4 prereq bab +15

whihc changes to

greater volley stance shoot an aditional arrow in volley stance 3 arrows at -8 to attack -- requires bab 18

i would have the stances have diferent icons so u could have greater volley up or switch to improved volley stance if things were harder to hit u coulld fire less arows with less penalty if u wanted

either a progression of one feat or an expensive 3 feats or a stance granted at bab 9,15, and 18 as part of manyshot wouldnt be something to sniff at

melee gets faster atacks more atacks and power attack stance and ranged is left lfg standing beside the portal wishing it could do some damage and get in a group now i love my meelee toons but i jsut wish i could find some way to be a contributing member of a party with a ranged wepon for more than 20 seconds out of 120 i think something like this would let a ranged toon be something other than somone u had to bring along because they were a guildie

something like this would let bows do decent damage regularly and do great damage when many shot is up

while this is not a rulebook pnp dnd feat neither is the implementation of manyshot which is not a clickie in pnp but allows u to shoot multiple arrows every shot if u wish
with a progressive penalty to attack

This is about volleball?

barecm
02-02-2009, 09:00 AM
And does your DM, using the ruleset that works for PnP, allow your ranging character to run around like crazy, kiting the mob, in an enclosed dungeon environment no less, and never take damage, not even allow a to-hit roll to be made against the character?
Long-range combat is very hard to balance in an MMO environment. Make it too powerful and it becomes too easy to take out our enemies with little to no danger to us.
Even as it stands, if I can bear the far slower killing rate, I can take any melee character whose entire ranged feats consist of having Proficiency with the Heavy Repeating Crossbow, and solo many quests with little damage taken.
The only thing that keeps that from happening is the slow kill rate.
Sure, it needs something added to it. But just taking the PnP ruleset and applying it to the game will most likely make it too powerful a combat style.

Yes, he does. Also, he assumes you can run faster at someone than you can backwards... so the enemy chasing a backpeddling ranger will catch them. He also says you cannot reload as quickly while running as you can while standing still etc... Of course that is a lot easier on paper than it is in virtual world. However, ranged combat is woeful in this game and giving it the same attack rate as standard melee would be the correct way to go. Melee gets other boosts including TWF (that can grant extra attacks beyond what is given from BAB) and a variety of special attacks that are still vacant in ranged. There is no equivilent for power attack, trip (improved), stunning blow, cleave, weapons that blind, armor that cripples, armor that destructs, bodyfeeder weapons and so on and so forth. It is blatantly obvious that for whatever reason Turbine fears ranged combat. So, instead of applying some thought and reason to fix the issues, they just make minor adjustments that have actually further broken this mechanic (shots fired not recording hit or miss); which by the way is 1 of 3 types of attacks (melee, magic or ranged). So, we have a game with only 2/3 of its combat working the way it should or could because of either lack of ability or lack of caring about ranged combat. Fixing one of the 3 types of combat in this game I would think should be a priority but has remained in such a sorry state since launch that most rangers are TWF and use a bow only if necessary. If they were so worried about game imbalance, why do they let casters have basically unlimited casting abilities? I can run my sorc through most of this game only using PK and rest shrines. Why not a huge outcry over that? For some reason people fear giving reasonable power to ranged because why... kiting? Please. Why not the same reaction to forming a wall of melee in front of a door so that the casters can place a firewall, cloudkill or whatever AOE there and just stand there and watch them die? Equally unfun I am sure. However, no complaints there, eh? Maybe giving ranged combat a boost will change the way people think if using a bow was more effective? Kiting would not be a sore spot if it killed enemies quicker? Probably folks get upset because ranged combat is so weak that watching a ranger kite a mob around takes too long, not because they are upset over the lack of damage enemies are dealing.

joeuhuh
02-02-2009, 03:47 PM
while all these replies were interesting none really comented on the volley stance i proposed so i think il coment on it myself thinking about it while 3 arrows allthe time would be splendid i think itmight be a little overpowered now so my revised stance with manyshot is now-- to clarify volley stnce is granted with the manyshot feat and in case ranged power atack is implemented it would be like sublte backstaqbing and not count as an actual stance
----
many shot grants 20 sec/2 min extra arrow at bab 6
volley stance grants extra arrow every attack -8 penalty at bab 6

my theory on this is now at lvl 6 you could fire 3 arrows with manyshot instead of two -- but at -8 atack so volley stance is not really going to be used much its one more arrow using manyshot and volley stance but u wont hit **** or not using volley stance its exactly the way it is now

----
bab11 manyshot grants still only one extra arrow but now its 30sec/ 2 min
volley stance only one extra arrow at -4 bab

u now get 2 arrows allthe time which is a improvement at -4 atack and may actualy be useable manyshot last 10 sec longer but still only provides one extra arrow for 3 total which is what it is now but u get 10 more seconds which is a small improvement u get to shoot 3arrows 25 percent of the time instead of 16.67 percent of the time

---
bab 16 manyshot grants 2 extra arrows 30 sec /2min
volley stance only one extra arrow -2 bab

2 arrows allthe time at -2 to atack is an improvemetn on base dmg manyshot now provides 2 extra arrows for total of 4 arrows which is the same as now but like at bab 11 it lasts 10 sec longer



i downgraded the buff i wanted to give myself in ranged combat to make it less powerful and more likely to be considered

--i personaly think ranged power attack should also be added as a feat to the game of course i would hope that bows would constitute a 2 handed weapon for added damage

--i think in fighter kensia the bow should be included under 2 handed weapon for damage and seeker purposes(without glancing blows)

-- i think bow strenth should be a feat anyone can take (this would allow other classes to reach capstones with a ranged weapon and still do damage and in so doing allow you to be able to do base damage without being a ranger or a rogue getin backstab with a ranged weapon)

-- i think palidan abilities like the evil outsider specialty, smites, and divine sacrifice should work with a ranged weapon (especialy considering theres a enhancemnt that adds to atack with longbow which makes me assume one of the palidans prefered weapons is a longbow)
while i realize divine sacrifice might be overpowered with manyshot perhaps it could be made to do the damage with only one shot but have the crit mult for all 4 (although since duel weilders get divine sacrifice dmg with both weapons i could see it being allowed for all 4 during manyshot after all snipershot works on all 4 arrows)

--i think the arrow from arcane archer should be transmuting --5 tiers in a specialty class to get a +5 arrow is why noone takes the class especialy since the clikie shot is useless or perhaps at rank 3 the returning arrow becomes transmuting

-- the arcane archer force arrow aught to apply force dmage to the returning arrow instead of 3d6 force dmg on a nonreturning non-quiverable +1 arrow make it a tier system to go with the arcane arrow system like magic missle add d4+1 arrow per rank of force arrow to the returning arrow so at rank 1 of arcane arrow and force arrow you would have a +1 returning arrow that does d4+1 at rank 3 a +3 returning arrow doing 3d4+3 and so on
while this damage adds up unlike tempest (t3 - 8 ap 3 feats) and deepwood sniper which require no action points to be spent other than the 4-2-2 for the tiers to get the highest lvl of force arrow would require 3 feats and 24 ap

well these are some of my thoughts on improving ranged combat pls respond with yours