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Eladrin
01-29-2009, 01:21 PM
Our in (http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/itsapuzzle/01100101.jpg?t=1243551829)spiring friends, the Bards, are today's feature. Their first capstone does a little bit of everything, just like they do:

Bard Musical Prodigy
Prereq: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

Edit: Insert standard disclaimer here, that I keep forgetting to write during my initial drafts. Subject to change during testing, may be nothing like this once it goes live, etc.

Dark-Star
01-29-2009, 01:30 PM
Meh.

maddmatt70
01-29-2009, 01:32 PM
This is another wow capstone and I mean wow. Every single spellsinger or non melee oriented bard has to be pure bard. It is just pretty overpowered.

On a personal note I have been playing hangover, my spellsinger bard, for 2 years any chance there will be a respec so I can respec her to pure. I really enjoy playing her, but this just absolutely kills her and I can't stomach rerolling her..

Ustice
01-29-2009, 01:32 PM
I assume that the +2 Charisma stacks with everything, right?

This sounds like it should be the next step in Virtuoso

The name should be changed. Prodigy with a gifted talent at an early age. This is level 20.

Opus Magnum?
Deft Performer?

maddmatt70
01-29-2009, 01:33 PM
Meh.

haha.. you think of this in too much of a melee light.. For melee bards this doesnt help at all but for spellsinger cc/healing bards its the bomb..

Beherit_Baphomar
01-29-2009, 01:35 PM
haha.. you think of this in too much of a melee light.. For melee bards this doesnt help at all but for spellsinger cc/healing bards its the bomb..

I assume there will be another capstone for melee bards?

Like ya said Eladrin, Bards are a lil of everything...some dont worry about spell DC's, max CHA scores or spell pen...

Gornn
01-29-2009, 01:36 PM
I'm glad I didn't splash my 16 Bard now!

Gol
01-29-2009, 01:37 PM
Yet another reason for Warchanters to splash ;)

Tanka
01-29-2009, 01:37 PM
So, Eladrin.

How does Spell Pen help a Bard when quite a few enemies in the later parts of the game are outright immune to many of their spells?

Beherit_Baphomar
01-29-2009, 01:38 PM
So, Eladrin.

How does Spell Pen help a Bard when quite a few enemies in the later parts of the game are outright immune to many of their spells?

Thats what the +2 to DC is for...oh.....nm.

Eladrin
01-29-2009, 01:39 PM
We really wanted to make this:

Bard Theme Music
Prereqs: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to change the dungeon background music to a different, random song. (No cooldown.)

Ganak
01-29-2009, 01:39 PM
Wow!!!

hannika
01-29-2009, 01:40 PM
my one pure bard non melee will like this, love this actually. but my 4 other melee bards agree with darkstar. meh. i'm hoping they'll be a more melee focused one to go with.

Dozen_Black_Roses
01-29-2009, 01:41 PM
yep I'm happy with it, now just give us some other instruments or customizable music and my Gaelsongs will be happy campers. :p

rimble
01-29-2009, 01:41 PM
We really wanted to make this:

Bard Theme Music
Prereqs: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to change the dungeon background music to a different, random song. (No cooldown.)

That'd be the bomb...

On the capstone, from my Warchanter w/ 1 level of Fighter point of view: Meh. +20% duration is nice, of course, but it won't be missed too sorely. A good capstone I think. Rewarding and nice, but not a requirement.

Angelus_dead
01-29-2009, 01:41 PM
Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.
This seems fine for a capstone, but only from the perspective that it's something every bard20 would want to spend AP on. It doesn't do anything to fill the other role some people hope capstones will do, which is reduce the incentive to splash another class. A bard18/rog2 will remain a more-powerful choice, as will bard19/barb1 for Warchanter.

I hope mod9 includes some other incentive to stay bard (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168824), particularly good spells of level 5 and 6 (and not just duplicates of wizzy spells)

Non-first post!

Dozen_Black_Roses
01-29-2009, 01:42 PM
and!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what stoped you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We really wanted to make this:

Bard Theme Music
Prereqs: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to change the dungeon background music to a different, random song. (No cooldown.)

Freeman
01-29-2009, 01:42 PM
haha.. you think of this in too much of a melee light.. For melee bards this doesnt help at all but for spellsinger cc/healing bards its the bomb..

Definitely very powerful for a spellsinger build. I'd even say it is probably overpowered, considering the bonuses you actually get, but they may feel it is necessary. The +2 Bardic Music uses are nice, but at level 20, it won't be a big difference, particularly not with the songs lasting 20% longer as well. The +2 DC to enchantment spells will keep bard spell DCs on par with sorcs and wizards, even taking into account level 9 spells, so while it is very powerful, they may have felt it was necessary in order for a CC bard to remain viable in endgame content. I think +1 to Enchantment spells would be a fairer bonus. As for the spell penetration bonus, it is nice, but again, not exactly in line with the flavor of the capstone.

I think +2 Charisma, 20% longer songs, and +1 to Enchantment DC would be fair when comparing it to the Wizard capstone.

The_Cataclysm
01-29-2009, 01:42 PM
We really wanted to make this:

Bard Theme Music
Prereqs: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to change the dungeon background music to a different, random song. (No cooldown.)

There is background music? :p

Of course you could have just added that on as an extra little bonus for the music prodigy, unless there are technical reasons why it can't be added

Freeman
01-29-2009, 01:45 PM
Our inspiring friends, the Bards, are today's feature. Their first capstone does a little bit of everything, just like they do:

For those that may have missed it, they've already said there would likely be multiple capstones for each class(Or at least some, can't recall the exact quote), but they might not make it into mod 9.

Angelus_dead
01-29-2009, 01:48 PM
How does Spell Pen help a Bard when quite a few enemies in the later parts of the game are outright immune to many of their spells?
Ya know, in D&D there is the Whelm series of spells, which are enchantments that do hitpoints damage... I bet they wouldn't be immune to them.

Schmackdown
01-29-2009, 01:50 PM
for spellsinger cc/healing bards its the bomb..
I'm reading a +3 DC boost to Enchantment spells, a smattering more SP due to the CHA bump and better spell penetration. Without significant changes to mob saves and SR, I don't see this capstone bringing bardic spell CC back to prominence, and it has little to nothing to offer bards on the healing front. It's cheap, so people will take it, but it's a big fat 'meh' in my book as well.

Changing the theme music? Is that just Turbine's way of saying they have no clue as to what a good bard capstone would be? Useless.

Angelus_dead
01-29-2009, 01:51 PM
Benefit: Activate this ability to change the dungeon background music to a different, random song. (No cooldown.)
Although it's unfortunate that DDO doesn't have the same music options as other (http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Mechanics:Player_Music_System) games (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/wrath/features/bard/bardclass.xml), the expense to add them cannot be justified.

maddmatt70
01-29-2009, 01:51 PM
All bards who are not melee bards will have to be pure. Currently if you are a non melee bard you can be a very good healer and potentially a decent ccer although mobs are immune to your cc or have high will saves at end game. Healing for bards is going to take a nosedive in comparison to clerics with the mass healing spell (9th level cleric) looming so for hangover, my non melee bard, I was trying to figure out what to do. What I came up with is respec a little and make sure I was an optimum cc bard, but now my cc is gimped in comparison to pure bards - they have a +1 to all cc and +3 to enchantment spells along with +3 to spell pen compared to hangover just because I splashed one sorc level 2 years ago.

For Rabiez, my battle bard, I will still pick this up because it will help with 20% longer songs, 2 extra songs, and +2 to charisma which for 2 action points is very cheap - so why not... Edit: Really its the equivalent of 10 action points for actual bard enhancements so it is more useful then most of the other current capstones even for a melee oriented battle bard.

direwolf33
01-29-2009, 01:51 PM
This is another wow capstone and I mean wow. Every single spellsinger or non melee oriented bard has to be pure bard. It is just pretty overpowered.

On a personal note I have been playing hangover, my spellsinger bard, for 2 years any chance there will be a respec so I can respec her to pure. I really enjoy playing her, but this just absolutely kills her and I can't stomach rerolling her..

Agreed..this rocks for non melee bard. Probably hurts 1sorc splash the most too :-/ If there is a second melee capstone, I almost hoping it will not be as strong.

Beherit_Baphomar
01-29-2009, 01:51 PM
For those that may have missed it, they've already said there would likely be multiple capstones for each class(Or at least some, can't recall the exact quote), but they might not make it into mod 9.

Yeah...missed that.

Preciate it.

Im no longer all mad and angry...Ill rip up that letter I was writing to Turbines CEO...

smatt
01-29-2009, 01:53 PM
Hmm, this is a nice capstone.... Far out does the Wizard capstone.. Why such an imbalance Eladrin?

Deathseeker
01-29-2009, 01:54 PM
I agree with a couple of previous observations...

This is great for non-melee bards, bordering on required.

For melee bards, this is minor.

So, either there will be some other melee oriented benefits bards get from 16 to 20, or you wont see any pure melee bards. Meanwhile, non-melee oriented bards will be very likely to go 20 levels.

But, future multiclassers beware...you never know what other capstones are coming in future mods, and Bards look ripe for a melee oriented capstone.

All in all, not horrible, not game changing...decent capstone.

Eladrin
01-29-2009, 01:55 PM
For those that may have missed it, they've already said there would likely be multiple capstones for each class(Or at least some, can't recall the exact quote), but they might not make it into mod 9.

The quote was:

"The next module brings a selection of new Prestige Enhancements to some classes and expands some existing lines for others, but every class will gain a Capstone Enhancement to celebrate reaching 20 levels in the class. A character may only possess a single Capstone Enhancement at a time. (At this moment it's academic as there will be one for each class, but other choices will likely be added in the future.)"

I expect there to be one aimed more at Warchanters coming in the future. Rangers will also likely see one in the future that caters to a different playstyle than the one coming in M9.

GrayOldDruid
01-29-2009, 01:56 PM
We really wanted to make this:

Bard Theme Music
Prereqs: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to change the dungeon background music to a different, random song. (No cooldown.)

I'd love to have my dungeon music be "Another one bites the Dust", kicking into the "...and another one down, another one down, another one bites the dust..." when I start swinging. :D

Also - yeah, name change - Prodigy is a YOUNG musical talent, before they become a Virtuoso.

Freeman
01-29-2009, 01:56 PM
Hmm, this is a nice capstone.... Far out does the Wizard capstone.. Why such an imbalance Eladrin?

I have to agree there. I think the Spell Pen bonus would have been more appropriate on the wizard capstone than here, and that would help even things out. Although from what I've seen, the capstones have been across the board in terms of power so far.

Tanka
01-29-2009, 01:57 PM
Ya know, in D&D there is the Whelm series of spells, which are enchantments that do hitpoints damage... I bet they wouldn't be immune to them.
Assuming they put them in DDO, sure.

What do you suppose the chances of that are?

The_Cataclysm
01-29-2009, 01:57 PM
The quote was:

"The next module brings a selection of new Prestige Enhancements to some classes and expands some existing lines for others, but every class will gain a Capstone Enhancement to celebrate reaching 20 levels in the class. A character may only possess a single Capstone Enhancement at a time. (At this moment it's academic as there will be one for each class, but other choices will likely be added in the future.)"

I expect there to be one aimed more at Warchanters coming in the future. Rangers will also likely see one in the future that caters to a different playstyle than the one coming in M9.

No second one planned for rogues?

rimble
01-29-2009, 01:58 PM
I have to agree there. I think the Spell Pen bonus would have been more appropriate on the wizard capstone than here, and that would help even things out. Although from what I've seen, the capstones have been across the board in terms of power so far.

Poor Rogues...:p

Freeman
01-29-2009, 01:59 PM
Poor Rogues...:p

That's the exact one I was thinking of as well :)

Deathseeker
01-29-2009, 01:59 PM
Rangers will also likely see one in the future that caters to a different playstyle than the one coming in M9.

Ok, that was just brutal. Way to stoke the fires before announcing whats coming...:D

Guess I'll stop by Costco tonight and grab a bulk box of popcorn...something tells me some fireworks are coming over this capstone.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled bard channel...

Nick_RC
01-29-2009, 01:59 PM
Eladrin.

PLEASE DONT MAKE THE CAPSTONES TOO MONTY HAUL!.

With the new lines and capstones multiclassing potential is being reduced. Any spellsinger will be pure. Interesting builds are on the way out.

Paladin was great - excellent trade off between dps or evasion umd (rog) or ac and evasin (monk) or intim and feats (ftr)

Please not too monty haul!!!

Cheers

N

Ganak
01-29-2009, 02:00 PM
I expect there to be one aimed more at Warchanters coming in the future. Rangers will also likely see one in the future that caters to a different playstyle than the one coming in M9.


Ready to comment on the Paladin Holy Avenger Capstone I suspect is coming?:)

Ustice
01-29-2009, 02:00 PM
Might I suggest a +2 to the DC of Enchantment spells as well?

Aspenor
01-29-2009, 02:02 PM
nick, do you even know what monty haul means? :D

this does seriously have CC BARD stamped all over it. anybody going for the CC will have to be pure (if they aren't already).

Can't wait to see the fighting bard, etc. capstones.

Jondallar
01-29-2009, 02:03 PM
Rangers will also likely see one in the future that caters to a different playstyle than the one coming in M9.


Tease :D

BelVic
01-29-2009, 02:07 PM
Bard Musical Prodigy
Prereq: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

Hmm by "gimp" bard would love it. Does it mean bards can have more Spell penetration than casters now ? Please give us virtuoso music which can help to stop monsters immune to regular bard music in shroud for example. So I can come , cast Irresistible Dance and kill them with w/p weapons or vorpals while they dance.

Gum
01-29-2009, 02:07 PM
Woot! I like it. Thank you. Thank you very much.

maddmatt70
01-29-2009, 02:08 PM
The quote was:

"The next module brings a selection of new Prestige Enhancements to some classes and expands some existing lines for others, but every class will gain a Capstone Enhancement to celebrate reaching 20 levels in the class. A character may only possess a single Capstone Enhancement at a time. (At this moment it's academic as there will be one for each class, but other choices will likely be added in the future.)"

I expect there to be one aimed more at Warchanters coming in the future. Rangers will also likely see one in the future that caters to a different playstyle than the one coming in M9.

I am really getting curious as to the capstone plan. It is becoming more obvious that eventually for every type of build in all classes there is going to be a very strong capstone to deter the multi-class. My question is why. A nice carot to deter multi-class somewhat is one thing, but something which mandates all cc bards remain pure impairs one of the best aspects of D&D 3.0-.35 to create your own character.

For brand new players stringent capstones makes ddo less attractive because they can't make whatever they want at least when they figure out how ddo works. For casual or less heavy players who have been playing ddo for awhile they likely have long played existing characters that will be less optimum and making them reroll would be very painful some will just quit eventually. For powergamers eventually they will get frustrated as well and look to the next game to invest their time in.

Nick_RC
01-29-2009, 02:09 PM
nick, do you even know what monty haul means? :D

this does seriously have CC BARD stamped all over it. anybody going for the CC will have to be pure (if they aren't already).

Can't wait to see the fighting bard, etc. capstones.

Yeah in New Zealand we make up our own meanings ;)

Freeman
01-29-2009, 02:11 PM
Of course, at some point people will have to start planning for what kind of 20/2 or 21/1 builds they can make, since I don't think they plan on stopping the levels at 20.

Eladrin
01-29-2009, 02:12 PM
No second one planned for rogues?
I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. There's one for each class in Module 9. I'd be surprised if there weren't more for every class in the future.

Justicesar
01-29-2009, 02:13 PM
Wrong....capstone will be for pure class only otherwise whats the point?? lol...Is it Capstone.....or wanna be capstone

Dirac
01-29-2009, 02:15 PM
Of course, at some point people will have to start planning for what kind of 20/2 or 21/1 builds they can make, since I don't think they plan on stopping the levels at 20.

I have been thinking about this as well. Some word on the future beyond level 20 will go a long way to damping these capstone arguments. Of course, word on a respec mechanism would do more.

Gratch
01-29-2009, 02:18 PM
I think people want a more dps rogue capstone for Mod 9... you can save the death cheating one for Mod 11: Every-Monnster-Has-Death-Auras-With-No-Save. You might also want to retitle that module. ...though it would make ranged characters more sought after again.

Was thinking about taking a level of cleric on my lowbie spellsinger bard to get the mass of DV's a high charisma offers. This will probably change my mind.

miceelf88
01-29-2009, 02:18 PM
This is nice, but really mainly for non-warchanter bards.

I really hope there's something for the warchanters, somewhere along the line.

There are a lot of us who are going pure class, perhaps in part because of what joys level 20 might bring. If this is THE capstone, instead of one of several, it is an additional reason for most warchanters to splash fighter/barb/whathaveyou. Not sure if this is intended or not.

Freeman
01-29-2009, 02:19 PM
I have been thinking about this as well. Some word on the future beyond level 20 will go a long way to damping these capstone arguments. Of course, word on a respec mechanism would do more.

They have stated that they don't plan on stopping at level 20, but that's about all that's been said. I would imagine we won't hear anything about it until after Mod9. There's no way to guess how they will actually implement what would have been the epic levels in PnP, but my guess would be it will be very different from the books.


Wrong....capstone will be for pure class only otherwise whats the point?? lol

Actually, if you read the quote from Eladrin on page two of this thread, the capstones are for reaching level 20 in a class. If they expand the cap beyond 20, a multiclass character could easily achieve that.

Justicesar
01-29-2009, 02:22 PM
Actually, if you read the quote from Eladrin on page two of this thread, the capstones are for reaching level 20 in a class. If they expand the cap beyond 20, a multiclass character could easily achieve that.[/QUOTE] '

I know...it seems Capstone should be for the end of the road...the feather in the cap. Not another twink for a mixed class to be nerfed later.

Thanimal
01-29-2009, 02:23 PM
Hm, while I agree this capstone is great, are folks really that complacent about giving up spell points? Let me rather conservatively estimate than any caster Bard will have a CHA of at least: 16 + 3 enh + 3 tome + 6 item + 4 bumps + 2 exceptional bonus = 34

Thus I calculate that a Sorc splash yields:

100 - feat
10 - 5% bonus on a Wizardry 8 item (since 1/20 Sorc)
120 - CHA bonus of 10 * 12
---
230

I'm sure an argument can be made that this capstone is worth trading 230 (or probably more) spell points for, but with Bards being quite light of spell points compared to other casters, I don't think we should just assume that -230 spell points means nothing.

Or should we? (I'm no expert on Bards -- just starting to a level a few Bard experiments.)

Delt
01-29-2009, 02:24 PM
That's a pretty nice capstone for caster bards. Hopefully everything in mod 9 isn't immune to all enchanments/compulsions, making it worthless though...

I'd be a little disappointed in the lack of a WC/melee bard bonus if it wasn't for the fact that no one in their right mind builds a battle bard without multiclassing :)

Impaqt
01-29-2009, 02:25 PM
For warchanters that didnt completely dump CHR this isnt really that bad. Its definatly giving me a reason to stay pure bard on mine. I just hope Masters Touch gets fixed eventually.

This give me a nice bump to my 26CHR Warchanter.... It will allow my CC to be a bit more effective when needed.

It IS strong, but again, not game breaking. If you think this capstone breaks your MC Bard, your MC bard probobly want that good anyway.

Gratch
01-29-2009, 02:26 PM
I have been thinking about this as well. Some word on the future beyond level 20 will go a long way to damping these capstone arguments. Of course, word on a respec mechanism would do more.

Given even 3.5ed D&D epic rules are all strung together by "these rules can be so overpowered and are so inconsistent that your DM should check any and everything you do at epic levels", I'm guessing even the devs aren't really sure how to streamline epic rules into an MMO (maybe similar to the way NWN did it). Plus I'd guess with druids/half-orcs/half-elves/crafting taking priority over epic levels... you're talking more than a year away.

Many might also push for a "respec mod" before epic levels. Though of course once they give us respec... they can also go back and readjust/streamline some of the game (enhancements/feats/skills/mobs/difficulty #'s accounting for 20 levels).

maddmatt70
01-29-2009, 02:26 PM
Hm, while I agree this capstone is great, are folks really that complacent about giving up spell points? Let me rather conservatively estimate than any caster Bard will have a CHA of at least: 16 + 3 enh + 3 tome + 6 item + 4 bumps + 2 exceptional bonus = 34

Thus I calculate that a Sorc splash yields:

100 - feat
10 - 5% bonus on a Wizardry 8 item (since 1/20 Sorc)
120 - CHA bonus of 10 * 12
---
230

I'm sure an argument can be made that this capstone is worth trading 230 (or probably more) spell points for, but with Bards being quite light of spell points compared to other casters, I don't think we should just assume that -230 spell points means nothing.

Or should we? (I'm no expert on Bards -- just starting to a level a few Bard experiments.)

Well I would say if the bards can still heal like they do now at level 20 then your correct the +230 spell points is nice, but since likely I will not be able to heal at the level I do in comparison to clerics when they get mass heal I would much rather have this capstone because most of my time will be spent casting cc anyway.

The_Cataclysm
01-29-2009, 02:27 PM
I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. There's one for each class in Module 9. I'd be surprised if there weren't more for every class in the future.

I realize that rogues will get another one eventually, but it just makes it seem like the only two you have on the horizon for second ones are Bard and Ranger. I would like the rogue one sooner rather than later due to the nature of the one known one.

Angelus_dead
01-29-2009, 02:27 PM
Rangers will also likely see one in the future that caters to a different playstyle than the one coming in M9.
That indicates that the M9 ranger capstone won't be something that applies equally to ranged and melee combat... it becomes very amusing to try to guess which one will benefit first. Either way, many people will be unhappy.

You can use this instead
Ranger Animal Hugger
Prereq: Level 20 Ranger
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +3 uses of Wild Empathy, +100 spellpoints, and your spell DCs are based on the better of your Dexterity or Wisdom scores. Your cooldown for Summon Nature's Ally is reduced by 50%, and any spell you cast on an Animal or Magical Beast costs 50% fewer spellpoints.

Dirac
01-29-2009, 02:27 PM
They have stated that they don't plan on stopping at level 20, but that's about all that's been said. I would imagine we won't hear anything about it until after Mod9. There's no way to guess how they will actually implement what would have been the epic levels in PnP, but my guess would be it will be very different from the books.

Ah, nice to know. I did not realize they had specifically mentioned that we will be able to take levels beyond 20 (as opposed to ... I didn't know what). I wonder if class advancement will end at 20, simply forcing multi-classing after that? That would simplify development, just add epic racial enhancements.

WeaselKing
01-29-2009, 02:28 PM
Yay!! I am not upset by multiclassing my Warchanter!!

Eladrin
01-29-2009, 02:29 PM
You can use this instead
Ranger Animal Hugger
Prereq: Level 20 Ranger
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +3 uses of Wild Empathy, +100 spellpoints, and your spell DCs are based on the better of your Dexterity or Wisdom scores. Your cooldown for Summon Nature's Ally is reduced by 50%, and any spell you cast on an Animal or Magical Beast costs 50% fewer spellpoints.
I was planning on saving that for Druids. ;)

Freeman
01-29-2009, 02:34 PM
Hm, while I agree this capstone is great, are folks really that complacent about giving up spell points? Let me rather conservatively estimate than any caster Bard will have a CHA of at least: 16 + 3 enh + 3 tome + 6 item + 4 bumps + 2 exceptional bonus = 34

Thus I calculate that a Sorc splash yields:

100 - feat
10 - 5% bonus on a Wizardry 8 item (since 1/20 Sorc)
120 - CHA bonus of 10 * 12
---
230

I'm sure an argument can be made that this capstone is worth trading 230 (or probably more) spell points for, but with Bards being quite light of spell points compared to other casters, I don't think we should just assume that -230 spell points means nothing.

Or should we? (I'm no expert on Bards -- just starting to a level a few Bard experiments.)

Actually, it would only be 193 extra spell points, since bards would gain 37(25 + 12) at that level.(Assuming the progression at 20 is the same) That's approximately 5-6 5th or 6th level spells worth. Regardless of the capstone, the tradeoff currently is 193 spell points versus -1 Spell Pen, -1 Bard song, and shorter spell durations. As to whether that's worth, it depends your preferences, but it isn't just a matter of spell points.

kingfisher
01-29-2009, 02:35 PM
The quote was:
Rangers will also likely see one in the future that caters to a different playstyle than the one coming in M9.

so you are saying that the ranger capstone will be aimed at a ranged playstyle huh?

Angelus_dead
01-29-2009, 02:42 PM
I was planning on saving that for Druids. ;)
That's too bad. I guess the only thing left for a Ranger capstone will be TWF longbows (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=090127).

Thanimal
01-29-2009, 02:45 PM
Actually, it would only be 193 extra spell points, since bards would gain 37(25 + 12) at that level.(Assuming the progression at 20 is the same) That's approximately 5-6 5th or 6th level spells worth. Regardless of the capstone, the tradeoff currently is 193 spell points versus -1 Spell Pen, -1 Bard song, and shorter spell durations. As to whether that's worth, it depends your preferences, but it isn't just a matter of spell points.

Fair enough. And these are great points. But just for completeness, I think 193 is actually quite low -- I was going for very conservative. By level 20, the Monty Haul nature of stats could very easily mean:

CHA: 20 (drow) + 5 bumps [forgot the 20 bump before] + 4 Tome + 6 item + 4 exceptional bonus + 4 some insane thing I can't even imagine + 3 enh = 46

And thus such a Drow Spellsinger would be giving up: 290 - (25+18) = 247 spell points.

So I guess I think the Sorc 1 splash is likely to remain a viable alternative for certain players with certain goals.

jockobalbeno
01-29-2009, 02:52 PM
Poor Jockstrap, now regrets that 1 lvl of Sor.

The_Ick
01-29-2009, 02:53 PM
We really wanted to make this:

Bard Theme Music
Prereqs: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to change the dungeon background music to a different, random song. (No cooldown.)

I think this would have been awesome, although i am sure others would have given the devs greif about it because it doesn't really benefit the toon or party in any way.

I have always thought that they need to take the whole "roleplaying" thing a little more lightheartedly. Goofy stuff like this and the Bowling alley in The Orchard makes me feel really connected with the devs. It's like being part of an inside joke..

A great addition would be to allow the Bards to stream mp3s over the party chat or drag and drop mp3 clippings to their toolbars. How many of us image Homer Simpson saying "Doh!!!!" when the rogue blows the trapbox. It would add a whole new dynamic to the game, albiet a fluffy one.

EinarMal
01-29-2009, 02:53 PM
I like it and don't think it is overpowered. In a game where spell DC is based on the highest possible for mob saves, Bards who build casters are screwed without something like this.

It is only on enchantment spells so Bards are still FAR weaker CC casters than Wiz/Sorc due spell selection and still +1 higher DC (9 vs. 6) and much less spell points.

Good capstone to me...I can't see how a Wizard could complain about a Bard being brought up to "almost as good" on enchantment spells only.

Just in case you missed it Bard's don't have instant kill spells and all the other options that a Wizard capstone helps with.

Oh, and could you please not make most mobs immune to enchantment spells?

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 03:00 PM
very underwhelmed. and very disappointed. IF enemies werent IMMUNE to our spells, then this would be beneficial to most bards. as it is, its CR&P on a stick and you know it. at least my haggler will get one extra haggle point from the +2 cha :rolleyes:

EinarMal
01-29-2009, 03:01 PM
very underwhelmed. and very disappointed. IF enemies werent IMMUNE to our spells, then this would be beneficial to most bards. as it is, its CR&P on a stick and you know it. at least my haggler will get one extra haggle point from the +2 cha :rolleyes:

Yeah we need them to add the "Overwhelming Enchantment" effect to all spells as well that manages to bypass any Developer cheese blanket immunities....:p

Strakeln
01-29-2009, 03:11 PM
I expect there to be one aimed more at Warchanters coming in the future. Rangers will also likely see one in the future that caters to a different playstyle than the one coming in M9.Oooh!

This must mean there will be a full respec capability added sometime between M9 and the other ranger version! :D

Darth_Sizzle
01-29-2009, 03:15 PM
Well, this saves the CC spec Bard from useless. Since Bards only get up to level 6 spells, with Max Cha and heighten before this enhancement they would've been exactly 3 behind DC wise a Wiz/Sorc. This makes them equal. Nice.

I'm also glad the capstone didn't increase the Damage bonus provided by songs, would've been a smack in the face to all those who made a Warchanter with a Barbarian level or two (which is obviously encouraged by the Warchanter enhancement line).

P.S. It's getting a bit sickening to see all these people posting about "oh this sucks because everything in the new content is immune to Bard spells." Perhaps you should all think before you speak, and think before responding to this comment.

Coldin
01-29-2009, 03:23 PM
I was planning on saving that for Druids. ;)

Druids?? Where???

Junts
01-29-2009, 03:23 PM
We really wanted to make this:

Bard Theme Music
Prereqs: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to change the dungeon background music to a different, random song. (No cooldown.)


haha, i want this too

I love this in concept, I'm just afraid everything will flat out be enchantment immune.

Borror0
01-29-2009, 03:26 PM
druids?? Where???
M42

Tanka
01-29-2009, 03:30 PM
M42
I believe the proper response is "Super Secret™".

Wrustle
01-29-2009, 03:33 PM
Glad to finally get the great news on the bard capstone. Looking forward to getting to lvl 20 to check it out!

P.S. The background music idea was pretty cool too IMO. Just throw that on top of the capstone :)

Anthios888
01-29-2009, 03:36 PM
Awesome capstone, glad I decide to stay pure! Will love it even on my warchanter.

Rindalathar
01-29-2009, 03:42 PM
Not to derail the thread, but again, here's a capstone that actually may come in handy to a good number of bards, wherein the appalling rogue capstone is so shockingly bad that I'm almost embarassed to take my pure rogue to level 20.

Borror0
01-29-2009, 03:45 PM
I believe the proper response is "Super Secret™".
Synonymous.

query
01-29-2009, 03:47 PM
Well, until that hapens...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
We really wanted to make this:

Bard Theme Music
Prereqs: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to change the dungeon background music to a different, random song. (No cooldown.)


If I had this, whenever we were scouting/snooping/meddling, I'd play the Scooby-Doo investigate theme.

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 03:48 PM
Well, this saves the CC spec Bard from useless. Since Bards only get up to level 6 spells, with Max Cha and heighten before this enhancement they would've been exactly 3 behind DC wise a Wiz/Sorc. This makes them equal. Nice.

I'm also glad the capstone didn't increase the Damage bonus provided by songs, would've been a smack in the face to all those who made a Warchanter with a Barbarian level or two (which is obviously encouraged by the Warchanter enhancement line).

P.S. It's getting a bit sickening to see all these people posting about "oh this sucks because everything in the new content is immune to Bard spells." Perhaps you should all think before you speak, and think before responding to this comment.
wiz capstone gives +2 int so theyre just as far ahead of bards as before.

and i dont recall anyone saying everything is immune, simply that most the enemies that we would actually want to use cc on are immune to it....ie giants in prey, devils and orthons in shroud, and all the red named.

CSFurious
01-29-2009, 03:50 PM
this is a good capstone & gives me incentive to start a new spellsinger build very soon

now, if we could only get the news on the second & third tier of the bard PRE's, that would be great

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 03:51 PM
I believe the proper response is "Super Secret™".
thought it was "vast and mysterious"

Darth_Sizzle
01-29-2009, 03:51 PM
wiz capstone gives +2 int so theyre just as far ahead of bards as before.

and i dont recall anyone saying everything is immune, simply that most the enemies that we would actually want to use cc on are immune to it....ie giants in prey, devils and orthons in shroud, and all the red named.

Obviously you didn't think before responding.

Edit: Red = Wrong

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 03:52 PM
Obviously you didn't think before responding.
no


This week's enhancement preview is the wizard capstone enhancement. Our scholarly friends get a nice solid bonus for reaching level 20, a passive bonus that emphasizes that they're the arcane class that are the true masters of metamagic.

Master of Magic
Prereqs: Level 20 Wizard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Grants +2 Intelligence and all metamagics you possess cost 1 fewer spell point to use. (Heighten Spell costs 1 fewer spell point per level of heightening.)


obviously you didn't

Darth_Sizzle
01-29-2009, 03:55 PM
...IF enemies werent IMMUNE to our spells, then this would be beneficial to most bards. as it is, its CR&P on a stick and you know it...

Hmm

Darth_Sizzle
01-29-2009, 03:56 PM
no




obviously you didn't

and you still can't count!!!

I amazed, truly amazed. Really, just think about it before responding.

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 03:57 PM
Obviously you didn't think before responding.

Edit: Red = Wrong
im glad you enjoy being wrong, its fun for me to. mandate of shavarath, which all shroud devils and orthons have, make them immune to most mind control and enchantments. you can lay dancing ball, but they can just teleport out of it. youre only viable options are greater shout and irresistable dance.

as ive said, the enemies that we would want to use a given spell on are immune to it. while you can use grt shout, youre unlikely to bypass the dr, or for them to fail the save even if you do. irresistable dance youre unlikely to land due to teleporting, sr, and range.

kingfisher
01-29-2009, 04:00 PM
Well, until that hapens...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
We really wanted to make this:

Bard Theme Music
Prereqs: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to change the dungeon background music to a different, random song. (No cooldown.)


If I had this, whenever we were scouting/snooping/meddling, I'd play the Scooby-Doo investigate theme.

and the inspector gadget theme for when there are warforged in the party

Darth_Sizzle
01-29-2009, 04:00 PM
im glad you enjoy being wrong, its fun for me to. mandate of shavarath, which all shroud devils and orthons have, make them immune to most mind control and enchantments. you can lay dancing ball, but they can just teleport out of it. youre only viable options are greater shout and irresistable dance.

as ive said, the enemies that we would want to use a given spell on are immune to it. while you can use grt shout, youre unlikely to bypass the dr, or for them to fail the save even if you do. irresistable dance youre unlikely to land due to teleporting, sr, and range.

And you're still wrong, Devils and Orthons in the Shroud are not immune to enchantments. Maybe your DCs are just too low, I don't know. Or is it that you just don't know what an enchantment is? Hold Monster, for example, is an enchantment.

P.S. I know this because when I'm clearing portals in pt 1, or cleaning up trash in part 2, on my Bard I use Hold Monster and use my Dreamspitter to kill the Orthons and Devils.

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 04:01 PM
Well, this saves the CC spec Bard from useless. Since Bards only get up to level 6 spells, with Max Cha and heighten before this enhancement they would've been exactly 3 behind DC wise a Wiz/Sorc. This makes them equal. Nice.

I'm also glad the capstone didn't increase the Damage bonus provided by songs, would've been a smack in the face to all those who made a Warchanter with a Barbarian level or two (which is obviously encouraged by the Warchanter enhancement line).

P.S. It's getting a bit sickening to see all these people posting about "oh this sucks because everything in the new content is immune to Bard spells." Perhaps you should all think before you speak, and think before responding to this comment.


and you still can't count!!!

I amazed, truly amazed. Really, just think about it before responding.
they are not equal to wiz. before the capstone, all things equal, a wiz/sorc could beat bard dc by 3. bard and wiz cap = +2 to casting stat = +1 dc. wiz still 3 over bard, sorc 2 over bard. now.....if the bard is casting an enchantment spell, they will be equal to sorc, and 1 less than wiz. otherwise its -3 and -2.

Dark-Star
01-29-2009, 04:01 PM
haha.. you think of this in too much of a melee light.. For melee bards this doesnt help at all but for spellsinger cc/healing bards its the bomb..


Exactly, especially when Elad talks about a little of everything, yet nothing really for melee oriented bards, which make up the majority.

The fact that he mentioned there will likely be a warchanter capstone changes things.

Taojeff
01-29-2009, 04:04 PM
so you are saying that the ranger capstone will be aimed at a ranged playstyle huh?

How about.

Ranger Capstone
There is no cooldown on manyshot. You would go pure then huh?

Wrustle
01-29-2009, 04:05 PM
Darth and Wizzly,

Although I, and I am sure a few more, are enjoying your spirited "debate" about our Bard class... Please take it to P.M. and stop clogging up this thread. This is a time to celebrate the upcoming MOD not to argue and bicker about something that really doesn't matter. IE : your egos.

Thanks Fellas.

Borror0
01-29-2009, 04:05 PM
Red = Wrong
About the DCs, Wizzly Bear is wrong because Musical Prodigy gives an extra bonus to enchantment DCs and Spell Pen. (EDIT: He seems to make the difference between schools, so he is right but that was a bit unclear from his part)

As for the Shroud, that's just nitpicking. While they are not immune, CC isn't really impressive in there because saves and SR are so high and Suggestion is useless since they have to be killed anyway. While there isn't always immunity, effectiveness is questionable and immunity is far too present.

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 04:05 PM
And you're still wrong, Devils and Orthons in the Shroud are not immune to enchantments. Maybe your DCs are just too low, I don't know. Or is it that you just don't know what an enchantment is? Hold Monster, for example, is an enchantment.

P.S. I know this because when I'm clearing portals in pt 1, or cleaning up trash in part 2, on my Bard I use Hold Monster and use my Dreamspitter to kill the Orthons and Devils.
hold monster works, but is a waste of time. as i said, theyre immune to anything we would want to use, ie anything that makes tactical sense.

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 04:07 PM
About the DCs, Wizzly Bear is wrong because Musical Prodigy gives an extra bonus to enchantment DCs and Spell Pen.
where?


they are not equal to wiz. before the capstone, all things equal, a wiz/sorc could beat bard dc by 3. bard and wiz cap = +2 to casting stat = +1 dc. wiz still 3 over bard, sorc 2 over bard. now.....if the bard is casting an enchantment spell, they will be equal to sorc, and 1 less than wiz. otherwise its -3 and -2.

Borror0
01-29-2009, 04:11 PM
where?
You hadn't wrote this post when I pressed the quote button. I edited my post.

Since Sizzle was referring to CC spells, I assumed that he was talking about enchantments.

Junts
01-29-2009, 04:11 PM
Our inspiring friends, the Bards, are today's feature. Their first capstone does a little bit of everything, just like they do:

Bard Musical Prodigy
Prereq: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

Edit: Insert standard disclaimer here, that I keep forgetting to write during my initial drafts. Subject to change during testing, may be nothing like this once it goes live, etc.

here

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 04:13 PM
You hadn't wrote this post when I pressed the quote button. I edited my post.

Since Sizzle was referring to CC spells, I assumed that he was talking about enchantments.
considering the cap only gives +2 to one school, why wouldnt we differentiate?

even still, the bard cannot reach a wizard's dc

Talcyndl
01-29-2009, 04:15 PM
haha.. you think of this in too much of a melee light.. For melee bards this doesnt help at all but for spellsinger cc/healing bards its the bomb..

I look at it as a nice way for my melee bard (assuming he stays pure) to buff up :) his casting abilities.

Darth_Sizzle
01-29-2009, 04:16 PM
they are not equal to wiz. before the capstone, all things equal, a wiz/sorc could beat bard dc by 3. bard and wiz cap = +2 to casting stat = +1 dc. wiz still 3 over bard, sorc 2 over bard. now.....if the bard is casting an enchantment spell, they will be equal to sorc, and 1 less than wiz. otherwise its -3 and -2.

Spell DC is calculated as follows:

10 + Spell Level + Stat Mod + Feats + Items + Enhancements

Comparison (Both Wizard and Bard assumed to be 20th level drow with the capstones and eqal Stat Mod; using 40, so +15 mod. Since both could take two feats to increase DC those will be ignored. Both can also attain the same items so those are also ignored.)

Bard Hold Monster DC:

10 + 6 (heightened) + 15 (cha capstone built in) + 2 (capstone) = 33

Wizard Hold Monster DC:

10 + 9 (heightened) +15 (int capstone built in) =34

that's a difference of 1

Sorcerer

10 + 9 (heightened) + 14 (no cha capstone) = 33

that's exactly the same as the Bard.

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 04:17 PM
Spell DC is calculated as follows:

10 + Spell Level + Stat Mod + Feats + Items + Enhancements

Comparison (Both Wizard and Bard assumed to be 20th level drow with the capstones and eqal Stat Mod; using 40, so +15 mod. Since both could take two feats to increase DC those will be ignored. Both can also attain the same items so those are also ignored.)

Bard Hold Monster DC:

10 + 6 (heightened) + 15 (cha capstone built in) + 2 (capstone) = 33

Wizard Hold Monster DC:

10 + 9 (heightened) +15 (int capstone built in) =34

that's a difference of 1

Sorcerer

10 + 9 (heightened) + 14 (no cha capstone) = 33

that's exactly the same as the Bard.
i already wrote this. whats your point?

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 04:19 PM
Well, this saves the CC spec Bard from useless. Since Bards only get up to level 6 spells, with Max Cha and heighten before this enhancement they would've been exactly 3 behind DC wise a Wiz/Sorc. This makes them equal. Nice.

I'm also glad the capstone didn't increase the Damage bonus provided by songs, would've been a smack in the face to all those who made a Warchanter with a Barbarian level or two (which is obviously encouraged by the Warchanter enhancement line).

P.S. It's getting a bit sickening to see all these people posting about "oh this sucks because everything in the new content is immune to Bard spells." Perhaps you should all think before you speak, and think before responding to this comment.


Spell DC is calculated as follows:

10 + Spell Level + Stat Mod + Feats + Items + Enhancements

Comparison (Both Wizard and Bard assumed to be 20th level drow with the capstones and eqal Stat Mod; using 40, so +15 mod. Since both could take two feats to increase DC those will be ignored. Both can also attain the same items so those are also ignored.)

Bard Hold Monster DC:

10 + 6 (heightened) + 15 (cha capstone built in) + 2 (capstone) = 33

Wizard Hold Monster DC:

10 + 9 (heightened) +15 (int capstone built in) =34

that's a difference of 1

Sorcerer

10 + 9 (heightened) + 14 (no cha capstone) = 33

that's exactly the same as the Bard.
thank you for proving yourself wrong. i was afraid my number breakdown was not sufficient :rolleyes:

Darth_Sizzle
01-29-2009, 04:21 PM
i already wrote this. whats your point?

No, you said a Wizard is still 3 ahead of a bard.


wiz capstone gives +2 int so theyre just as far ahead of bards as before.

and i dont recall anyone saying everything is immune, simply that most the enemies that we would actually want to use cc on are immune to it....ie giants in prey, devils and orthons in shroud, and all the red named.


they are not equal to wiz. before the capstone, all things equal, a wiz/sorc could beat bard dc by 3. bard and wiz cap = +2 to casting stat = +1 dc. wiz still 3 over bard, sorc 2 over bard. now.....if the bard is casting an enchantment spell, they will be equal to sorc, and 1 less than wiz. otherwise its -3 and -2.

My point is what it has always been, you don't know what you're talking about.

Tanka
01-29-2009, 04:22 PM
No, you said a Wizard is still 3 ahead of a bard.
He was talking about non-Enchantments. Later in the same posts, he says that for Enchantments, a Bard will be one behind a Wiz.

Darth_Sizzle
01-29-2009, 04:23 PM
thank you for proving yourself wrong. i was afraid my number breakdown was not sufficient :rolleyes:

Yes, ok, a Wiz can get 1 higher than a Bard. But Sorc's will be the same as Bards.

What spells other than enchantments are Bards likely to use? (Rhetorical Question)

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 04:23 PM
they are not equal to wiz. before the capstone, all things equal, a wiz/sorc could beat bard dc by 3. bard and wiz cap = +2 to casting stat = +1 dc. wiz still 3 over bard, sorc 2 over bard. now.....if the bard is casting an enchantment spell, they will be equal to sorc, and 1 less than wiz. otherwise its -3 and -2.


No, you said a Wizard is still 3 ahead of a bard.





My point is what it has always been, you don't know what you're talking about.
did you read the whole post? i think not. maybe i dont know what im talking about, but you sure as heck dont either.

nbhs275
01-29-2009, 04:24 PM
Actually, it would only be 193 extra spell points, since bards would gain 37(25 + 12) at that level.(Assuming the progression at 20 is the same) That's approximately 5-6 5th or 6th level spells worth. Regardless of the capstone, the tradeoff currently is 193 spell points versus -1 Spell Pen, -1 Bard song, and shorter spell durations. As to whether that's worth, it depends your preferences, but it isn't just a matter of spell points.

200ish sp vs +3 DC of enchantments, +3 Spell Pen, +1 to cha skills, 20% longer songs, and longer buffs(the arguement can be made that the 12 seconds of extra haste alone saves you 30-60sp per shrine alone).

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 04:25 PM
Yes, ok, a Wiz can get 1 higher than a Bard. But Sorc's will be the same as Bards.

You really just can't admit when you're wrong huh?
i have no problems admitting when im wrong.....provided that im wrong that is.

and sorcs will not be the same dc as bards. only if both are casting enchantments spells (which are worthless most of the time) will they be equal.

Darth_Sizzle
01-29-2009, 04:26 PM
i Have No Problems Admitting When Im Wrong.....provided That Im Wrong That Is.

And Sorcs Will Not Be The Same Dc As Bards. only If Both Are Casting Enchantments Spells (which Are Worthless Most Of The Time) Will They Be Equal.

LOL, I'm really beginning to doubt that you've ever played a caster or Bard.

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 04:27 PM
What spells other than enchantments are Bards likely to use? (Rhetorical Question)
greater shout is an evocation and works great on enemies who dont teleport around.

Borror0
01-29-2009, 04:27 PM
considering the cap only gives +2 to one school, why wouldnt we differentiate?
Most CC spells a bard would use are enchantments.

Junts
01-29-2009, 04:28 PM
dont forget that any bard who intends to be casting cc like that probably has the ability to give himself another dc with spellsong trance: while the wizard has a higher max dc, the bard is going to be equal for average play, since the wizard can't count on having a bard, but the bard can.

dc 35 is pretty nice

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 04:30 PM
Most CC spells a bard would use are enchantments.
yes, most cc spells a bard would use (if the enemies we wanted to use them on werent immune to them) are enchantments.

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 04:34 PM
LOL, I'm really beginning to doubt that you've ever played a caster or Bard.
ive capped 3 bards and 7 casters. of the casters, 2 were clerics, 4 were wiz, and 1 was a sorc.

Tolero
01-29-2009, 04:35 PM
Can we make these discussions less personal and a bit more feedbacky? I'd hate to let the Cube catch a waft of freshly baked flaming fresh from the forum oven... once his tummy starts grumbling, there's no stopping him. :eek:

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 04:38 PM
Can we make these discussions less personal and a bit more feedbacky? I'd hate to let the Cube catch a waft of freshly baked flaming fresh from the forum oven... once his tummy starts grumbling, there's no stopping him. :eek:
more feedbacky eh?

option 1) scrap this capstone in favor of enhancing their music, ya know, since theyre musicians.

option 2) scrap all the immunities that enemies have that make this capstone nigh worthless.

Borror0
01-29-2009, 04:38 PM
ive capped 3 bards and 7 casters. of the casters, 2 were clerics, 4 were wiz, and 1 was a sorc.
True, but you never played any of them well. :D

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 04:40 PM
True, but you never played any of them well. :D
i played the clerics pretty well. well.....imo anyway. my parties didnt appreciate me including their deaths in my kill count.....

Turial
01-29-2009, 04:48 PM
i played the clerics pretty well. well.....imo anyway. my parties didnt appreciate me including their deaths in my kill count.....

I've always considered them legit kills for my clerics kill count.

MAP1974
01-29-2009, 04:58 PM
Our inspiring friends, the Bards, are today's feature. Their first capstone does a little bit of everything, just like they do:

Bard Musical Prodigy
Prereq: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

Edit: Insert standard disclaimer here, that I keep forgetting to write during my initial drafts. Subject to change during testing, may be nothing like this once it goes live, etc.

eladrin,

i like this capstone. i am glad i took the decision to hold tight and not splash some other class on my cc/healing spellsinger, in the hope the 20 level enhancements would be nice.

Aesop
01-29-2009, 05:01 PM
I am becoming concerned about the capstones in general.

We seem to havea major case of Hit or Miss... and the Hit is usually a critical that makes other options nigh unthinkable.

This Capstone seems quite powerful (barring the massive IMMUNE issue) In Effect it has the power of 8 or so Feat... including 2 epic Feat.

Lingering Song
Spell Penetration
Spell Focus Enchantment
Greater Spell Focus Enchantment
Mental Toughness
Extra Bardic Music
Epic Charisma x2

Not exactly what I'd call balanced.

I'm not asking for it to benerfed mind you just saying that you should becareful with how powerful these are becoming.

Aesop

Do'Urden
01-29-2009, 05:07 PM
My Spellsinger would like to request an amendment to this capstone as follows:

Remove everything suggested
Add +10 Haggle

:cool:

Wizzly_Bear
01-29-2009, 05:57 PM
I am becoming concerned about the capstones in general.

We seem to havea major case of Hit or Miss... and the Hit is usually a critical that makes other options nigh unthinkable.

This Capstone seems quite powerful (barring the massive IMMUNE issue) In Effect it has the power of 8 or so Feat... including 2 epic Feat.

Lingering Song
Spell Penetration
Spell Focus Enchantment
Greater Spell Focus Enchantment
Mental Toughness
Extra Bardic Music
Epic Charisma x2

Not exactly what I'd call balanced.

I'm not asking for it to benerfed mind you just saying that you should becareful with how powerful these are becoming.

Aesop
yes, they seem to all have been decided and built both arbitrarily and isolated from each other. almost like they had 1 person per class come up with whatever they thought was a good idea and then didnt balance between them.


My Spellsinger would like to request an amendment to this capstone as follows:

Remove everything suggested
Add +10 Haggle

:cool:
i honestly think this would be better than what theyre proposing.

muffinlad
01-29-2009, 06:12 PM
Another well thought out addition to the cap stones.

Bards need the +2 to DC if they are going to keep pace in crowd controll.

muffinsinger

Angelus_dead
01-29-2009, 06:28 PM
On a personal note I have been playing hangover, my spellsinger bard, for 2 years any chance there will be a respec so I can respec her to pure. I really enjoy playing her, but this just absolutely kills her and I can't stomach rerolling her..
Yes, this capstone is a real hit to any Spellsinger bard who was suckered into splashing a sorc/wiz level by the Magical Training (http://compendium.ddo.com/index.php/Feat:Magical_Training) option to qualify for Spellsinger (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhancement:Bard_Spellsinger_I).

That option created an impression that splashing another caster was a developer-approved way to get into Spellsinger, but now it turns out that at level 20, any non-pure bard loses out on powerful casting boosts.

The same problem might occur in the future for Warchanter bards: any current bard16 Warchanter who looks at the capstone and doesn't like it will be incentivized to splash fig/barb/ran to increase his power in M9 (especially if bard levels 19-20 lack other powerful features). But then if M10 or M11 create a melee-buff capstone option, he too would feel left out.

Arkat
01-29-2009, 06:37 PM
Yet another reason for Warchanters to splash ;)

Indeed!

Noctus
01-29-2009, 08:22 PM
A Capstone of this magnitude was needed to keep Bard´s CC viable.

Without this CC-Bards would have been too far behind. They already have problems now (not touchig the IMMUNITY-issue). A widening of the gap between Sorc/Wiz and Bard in CC efficiency would have killed them.

Blackbird
01-29-2009, 08:29 PM
Currently, Warchanters already have a reason not to multiclass. The primary benefit of being a Warchanter is that they get an additional +1/+2 to Inspire Courage. If they can't hit level 20, that benefit is reduced to -/+1 over a non-warchanter bard at level 20, which is minimal. Of course, Warchanter II and III could change things, but there's no indication of when those will be added yet.

Edit: Doh!! Must remember I'm on my wife's laptop. This is actually Freeman.

Venar
01-29-2009, 08:59 PM
First, multiclassing as a warchanter makes no sense. The goal of warchanter is to be able to reach the best offensive song. If you splash, you lose the top enhancements, and thus your song is weaker then a pure bard.

As for the capstone, look at it this way:

Let's say you are happy with your bard.
Then use the capstone (2 AP)
to replace:
Bard Charisma 2 and 3 (2 cha)
Extra songs 3 and 4 (2 songs)
Lingering 3 and 4 (20 longer songs)
Spell pen 2 and 3 (+2 spell pen)
And boom, you are the same bard, but you just gained 32 AP. Badabing badaboom.

Borror0
01-29-2009, 09:02 PM
Doh!! Must remember I'm on my wife's laptop. This is actually Freeman.
hehe, LOL

Angelus_dead
01-29-2009, 09:17 PM
First, multiclassing as a warchanter makes no sense. The goal of warchanter is to be able to reach the best offensive song. If you splash, you lose the top enhancements, and thus your song is weaker then a pure bard.
Unfortunately, that's not always true.

Whether or not splashing 1 level denies an enhancement changes according to the current level cap. It's not true now at level 16, but it was at level 12 and 14, and it seems likely to happen again at level 20, although we can't be quite sure. But if much later the cap goes to 22, then it will almost certainly reverse again.

Regardless of whether or not that information is conveyed to the players ahead of time, it's not good game design for those factors to switch back and forth like that, especially if class respec is disallowed. It is unfun for players to constrain their current characters according to things that might happen in some future update that might be very late, or not even ever happen.

Borror0
01-29-2009, 09:39 PM
The goal of warchanter is to be able to reach the best offensive song. If you splash, you lose the top enhancements, and thus your song is weaker then a pure bard.
I would say the goal of a warchanter is to make a strong melee bard, first of all.

Whether you splash or not has to do with if you value improvement to your song more than you value what you could gain by splashing. A "good" warchanter, by level 20, will not necessarily have to be pure. Of course, Inspire Courage is centric to a warchanter but in the end it's a matter of trade offs: is loosing +1 to Inspire Courage worth what I will gain?

Actually, I bet the best warchanter, come M9, will have at least one level of rogue splashed unless the current BAB progression is changed.

bobbryan2
01-29-2009, 09:47 PM
I would say the goal of a warchanter is to make a strong melee bard, first of all.

Whether you splash or not has to do with if you value improvement to your song more than you value what you could gain by splashing. A "good" warchanter, by level 20, will not necessarily have to be pure. Of course, Inspire Courage is centric to a warchanter but in the end it's a matter of trade offs: is loosing +1 to Inspire Courage worth what I will gain?

Actually, I bet the best warchanter, come M9, will have at least one level of rogue splashed unless the current BAB progression is changed.

Actually... I kinda disagree. If you're losing +1 damage for splashing a single level.. then everyone in the party is losing 1 damage from each hand. In a raid group with 9 TWF 3-4 damage a secon for each. 27-36 damage per second for the party... call it 32. That's 1320 extra damage a minute.

What are you going to get for splashing 1 level that's worth that?

Angelus_dead
01-29-2009, 09:49 PM
What are you going to get for splashing 1 level that's worth that?
From a personal standpoint, you get a little sneak attack, but what he's specifically alluding to is higher attack rate from staying at BAB14 instead of 15 like a pure bard.

However, that probably won't really work, because it's likely the character will need/want DP or Madstone for attack bonuses.

MAP1974
01-29-2009, 09:56 PM
Unfortunately, that's not always true.

Whether or not splashing 1 level denies an enhancement changes according to the current level cap. It's not true now at level 16, but it was at level 12 and 14, and it seems likely to happen again at level 20, although we can't be quite sure. But if much later the cap goes to 22, then it will almost certainly reverse again.

Regardless of whether or not that information is conveyed to the players ahead of time, it's not good game design for those factors to switch back and forth like that, especially if class respec is disallowed. It is unfun for players to constrain their current characters according to things that might happen in some future update that might be very late, or not even ever happen.

i read this, and came away thinking that if i splash any of my pure characters, then i run the risk of not having access to (future) enhancements that a pure character may have access to. it is a gamble that comes with splashing.

i assume many people splash other classes for some particular benefit, that is more attractive than remaining pure. that being the case, if respec'ing is permitted, would there be some inequity for those persons who decided to (take the gamble and) remain pure on the basis that they might have access to enhancements only available to max level pure class chars?

bobbryan2
01-29-2009, 09:56 PM
From a personal standpoint, you get a little sneak attack, but what he's specifically alluding to is higher attack rate from staying at BAB14 instead of 15 like a pure bard.

However, that probably won't really work, because it's likely the character will need/want DP or Madstone for attack bonuses.

I know there are ways to make your personal character better by splashing. You can make him a little more sturdy, or do a little more damage than the +1 to hit/damage.

But bards are in a unique position to increase the damage of everyone in the group... so when you make determinations about whether splashing is best for a warchanter, you at least have to consider that in an optimized party, you're losing a LOT of DPS by splashing a single level.

bobbryan2
01-29-2009, 09:59 PM
i read this, and came away thinking that if i splash any of my pure characters, then i run the risk of not having access to (future) enhancements that a pure character may have access to. it is a gamble that comes with splashing.

i assume many people splash other classes for some particular benefit, that is more attractive than remaining pure. that being the case, if respec'ing is permitted, would there be some inequity for those persons who decided to (take the gamble and) remain pure on the basis that they might have access to enhancements only available to max level pure class chars?

Well, in a perfect world... people should play the game that exists, not for what the game might be in two years.

I don't think people that gimp themselves in the present just to be powerful eventually are playing with the right mindset. But... Turbine has forced that mentaility by the fact that they won't allow people to change their builds when the game changes.

Hordo
01-29-2009, 10:07 PM
I can honestly say that I am singularly unimpressed by this Capstone. I have a 16 bard Spellsinger and the +2 CHR is cool, but the Enchantment focus DC bonus is absolutely worthless unless I decide to go romping around a bunch of level 14 or lower quests. The immunities, and reactionary-DC's added by the Devs, make any of the bonus to spells and songs worthless. The time addition is welcome, thank you it will help the party as a whole. All-in-all, for 2 AP pts, I'll still take it just for the CHR bonus and the extended songs, but the spell enhancements are a joke.

Borror0
01-29-2009, 10:18 PM
What are you going to get for splashing 1 level that's worth that?
Assuming 9 TWF characters, hitting on a 2, and the current swing rate, +1 to Inspire Courage represents 1419.3 extra damage per minute.
Assuming the bard never has the aggro, a TWF warchanter would have to do 70 damage per swings on average for splashing 1 level of rogue to be worthwhile.

Assuming 9 S&B or THF, hitting on a 2, and the current swing rate, the damage the bard would get from his sneak attacks, alone, makes splashing rogue worthwhile.

That is assuming:

No swing bonus (Tempest, Haste, Wind Stance, Zeal, etc.)
Warchanter not valuing Evasion.
Madstone/Divine Power not needed to hit reliably.
Raid parties with 9 melee characters.
16+ BAB not affecting attack rates.

Strype.McClaine
01-29-2009, 10:20 PM
Unfortunately, I have to post this some what personal comment, rather than looking at it for what it is and considering it in its ballence.

HAPPY HAPPY.
JOY JOY.

I have a spell singer who in fact creamed his K. Delving suit, Chain Shirt of Crippling, and Breast plate of Destruction reading this.

Good thing he still has his daemon queen outfit to wear while he sends the rest to the cleaners

vtecfiend99
01-29-2009, 10:46 PM
My Spellsinger would like to request an amendment to this capstone as follows:

Remove everything suggested
Add +10 Haggle

:cool:

Hells yeah.

Venar
01-30-2009, 12:21 AM
Still, most WC that splash tell me about weapon proficiency, run speed, and ability to fight.
I dont see how a guy who can cast master's touch, GH, haste, blur and displacement, sound burst, exp retreat, and songs that give +8 to-hit, i dont see what more they can want aside from evasion.

Tanka
01-30-2009, 12:27 AM
Still, most WC that splash tell me about weapon proficiency, run speed, and ability to fight.
I dont see how a guy who can cast master's touch, GH, haste, blur and displacement, sound burst, exp retreat, and songs that give +8 to-hit, i dont see what more they can want aside from evasion.
For there not to be any lag when casting Master's Touch, I imagine.

Solmage
01-30-2009, 01:15 AM
We really wanted to make this:

Bard Theme Music
Prereqs: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to change the dungeon background music to a different, random song. (No cooldown.)


I'd love to have my dungeon music be "Another one bites the Dust", kicking into the "...and another one down, another one down, another one bites the dust..." when I ...

....when I start hitting diplomacy near the other party members? Pretty please with sugar on top? Would be the best capstone ever! =)

This is a pretty good capstone, it will allow the spell singers to be slightly better than the wizard at spell penetration and slightly worse at spell DCs, but still within reason.

Now the trick is whether the new mod will have creatures with reasonable saves, or weather we'll continue the trend of creating stuff where the only thing worth casting at it are saveless spells.

Of course, when you start filling an entire mod with stuff immune to a school of magic, aside from having high saves, you severely affect wizards. When you make that school enchantment, well caster bards with or without this capstone will be particularly happy.

Garth_of_Sarlona
01-30-2009, 01:19 AM
....when I start hitting diplomacy near the other party members? Pretty please with sugar on top? Would be the best capstone ever! =)


it does makes me chuckle every time I remember diploming the Hound onto the cleric moments before he died.

Garth

Borror0
01-30-2009, 01:25 AM
Still, most WC that splash tell me about weapon proficiency, run speed, and ability to fight.
I dont see how a guy who can cast master's touch, GH, haste, blur and displacement, sound burst, exp retreat, and songs that give +8 to-hit, i dont see what more they can want aside from evasion.
Not sure what your point is...

Mistinarperadnacles
01-30-2009, 02:02 AM
Just... wow!

Great Capstone.

Jay203
01-30-2009, 03:14 AM
hey look, an extra +1 to haggle for bards!!! :D:D:D:D:D
question is, will qwijy drop the price accordingly? xD

Uska
01-30-2009, 03:15 AM
I llike it

Voalkrynn2
01-30-2009, 04:54 AM
Our inspiring friends, the Bards, are today's feature. Their first capstone does a little bit of everything, just like they do:

Bard Musical Prodigy
Prereq: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

Edit: Insert standard disclaimer here, that I keep forgetting to write during my initial drafts. Subject to change during testing, may be nothing like this once it goes live, etc.

Anyone think this will get more spell singers into the shroud or will we continue to see "war chanter only" runs?

Griphon
01-30-2009, 06:40 AM
Anyone think this will get more spell singers into the shroud or will we continue to see "war chanter only" runs?

I like Spell Singer and Warchanter runs... Both types have their advantages.
Clerics like the spell singer song, tanks like and clerics like the warchanter song....

Runs with both are awesome.

seldarin
01-30-2009, 06:51 AM
I'm glad I didn't splash my 16 Bard now!

Me too, he has an aversion to water and it mightve made him melt :)

Oh wait, that would be my wizzie

darkrune
01-30-2009, 06:53 AM
I have a spellsinger cc/healing/buffing spec'd and this capstone still doesnt make me upset to have taken the lvl of cleric that i did. Come on my 18 DV I's at lvl 16 often help more than the additional 20% of song time would... considering he has 19 songs i just sing again and get 100% longer. heck most of the high end raids 19 songs is enough to hit everyone with inspire heroics, after tossing a spellsong, hit the intimis with competence, and still be able to greatness and courage prior to shrining for an additional 19 songs...

the extra charisma would be nice, and the spell pen sure that helps (but i can grab an item to give same bonus currently) but as many many people have listed above CC enhantment spells are currently nigh useless cause of the blanket immunities and SR of the mobs we are now facing...

If you want the capstone to truly be effective making the bards enchantment CC better stop with the immunities and making air elementals (reaver nerf anyone?), devils, orthons and the like able to walk right through the CC as if it was never cast. It is really sad that many bards have to always toss a mindfog and pray for a failed save so that the discoballs can land. (2 failed saves to get the CC to work??)

Just my 2cp

Dark

seldarin
01-30-2009, 07:02 AM
Well, in a perfect world... people should play the game that exists, not for what the game might be in two years.

I don't think people that gimp themselves in the present just to be powerful eventually are playing with the right mindset. But... Turbine has forced that mentaility by the fact that they won't allow people to change their builds when the game changes.

I built my bard way back before specialities were thought of. Never changed him or rerolled him, capped him all the way to lvl 16 as a straight bard. I play for the here and now, not the whatever might be. Are my characters still viable in current content, yes they are. Will they be in future, who knows, who cares. If it comes to a point where my characters are no longer useful in the game, that is probably the time i will quit. I wont reroll 10 characters just because something has changed in the game and they arent todays flavour. I dont have all the uber gear and i dont really care. Im not a powergamer, i play to have a bit of fun and be constructive to the group.

If i reach a point where i am no longer contributing to the party, then i no longer play. But that is a long way from coming, so i dont stress over it. You shouldnt build a character for current flavour, but rather for OVERALL usefulness.

For example, 80 AC is great, but no use if you cant hit squat and cant hold agro. And when it reaches a point where 80 AC is hit 19 times out of 20, where will that put the high ac/low dps toon then?

Todays flavour doesnt equal longterm viability AND i am quite tired of seeing all the reroll threads that float on the forums.

You build a today flavour toon, deal with the consequences when its no longer the flavour, dont like it, stiff. Thats just my opinion though.

Venar
01-30-2009, 09:36 AM
For there not to be any lag when casting Master's Touch, I imagine.

So, you consider it is worth taking a fighter/barb level to avoid a 3 sec lag after shrines?

Venar
01-30-2009, 09:39 AM
Not sure what your point is...

I am answering to all the people who are whinning that this capstone is not a good enough reason for warchanters not to splash.
I was pointing out that there is little point in splashing a warchanter anyways, so maybe they should just take this 34 AP worth capstone and compare it to the one rogues got and just be happy.

Borror0
01-30-2009, 09:45 AM
So, you consider it is worth taking a fighter/barb level to avoid a 3 sec lag after shrines?
You missed the part where I calculated splashing rogue meant better DPS?

Fighter level(s) are for the feat(s), currently.

BlackSteel
01-30-2009, 10:03 AM
You missed the part where I calculated splashing rogue meant better DPS?

Fighter level(s) are for the feat(s), currently.

for a regular party yes, for a raid no

we are talking about 1d6 + 3 sneak damage right? nothing else. give the bard -1 for the lack of that last comp. buff, and compare that to what the others get with a plus one. bard/rog IF twf himself gets 11 damage per double swing. Even if you go 1/3 twf, 1/3 shields, and 1/3 thf. A raid group with 9 others making use of the buff would be doing 13.8 more damage an attack. And with an overwhelming population of TWF, that number increases. THF do well with it too, b/c it increases their GB's by 0.3-0.4, and they can do an increases rate of attack for a few more attacks/minute by upsetting their chain. The only time really in a raid group where the extra damage in the song would net less damage than single splash rogue would be if the entire team was S&B (exaggeration, but there would have to be 6 S&B, and 3 THF, and no TWF for almost equal benefit)

Borror0
01-30-2009, 10:13 AM
for a regular party yes, for a raid no
Do the math.

BlackSteel
01-30-2009, 10:19 AM
i did, rogue splash is 11 per 'attack

+1 more damage is close to 14 with a raid group with 3 TWF, 3 THF, and 3 S&B. And that by no means looks anything like a normal melee group. Most of the time its 6 TWF, 2 THF, and 1 S&B. Or say you have lazy or limp wrist casters, or are just caster heavy, a raid with only 4 TWB, 2 THF, and 1 S&B would do 12.2.

EinarMal
01-30-2009, 10:25 AM
i did, rogue splash is 11 per 'attack

+1 more damage is close to 14 with a raid group with 3 TWF, 3 THF, and 3 S&B. And that by no means looks anything like a normal melee group. Most of the time its 6 TWF, 2 THF, and 1 S&B. Or say you have lazy or limp wrist casters, or are just caster heavy, a raid with only 4 TWB, 2 THF, and 1 S&B would do 12.2.

It is not even as close as you are making it really, because that 1d6+3 is best case, the reality is you cannot get 100% sneak attacks on any quest really. That is only 6.5 per swing not 11.

The +1 TO HIT (which Borr) is ignoring and the +1 damage for everyone in the group is better for overall group DPS in most cases.

Borr I think you need to check your math, the Rogue splash nets the Bard +5.5 damage per swing (if you get sneak attacks). In a 6 man group it would be really close as you are not getting 100% sneak attacks. A couple of TWF characters and one two hander would get back 5 damage.

If you splash 3 levels of Rogue you are going to probably be behind +2 in songs from level 20 and enhancements.

BlackSteel
01-30-2009, 10:33 AM
I know, I was being optmisitic, in that the bard would be TWF AND the enemies would not have fort, and the bard would never have aggro

Asherons_Chosen
01-30-2009, 10:39 AM
i read this, and came away thinking that if i splash any of my pure characters, then i run the risk of not having access to (future) enhancements that a pure character may have access to. it is a gamble that comes with splashing.

i assume many people splash other classes for some particular benefit, that is more attractive than remaining pure. that being the case, if respec'ing is permitted, would there be some inequity for those persons who decided to (take the gamble and) remain pure on the basis that they might have access to enhancements only available to max level pure class chars?

I posted a very similar argument in the Paladin Capstone. If you choose to splash, you probably made that choice for a reason. You don't lose the benefit of your choice because some future benefit makes the pure character stronger than he currently is.

Borror0
01-30-2009, 10:56 AM
i did, rogue splash is 11 per 'attack

+1 more damage is close to 14 with a raid group with 3 TWF, 3 THF, and 3 S&B. And that by no means looks anything like a normal melee group. Most of the time its 6 TWF, 2 THF, and 1 S&B. Or say you have lazy or limp wrist casters, or are just caster heavy, a raid with only 4 TWB, 2 THF, and 1 S&B would do 12.2.

Consider the following attack rates:

TWF (15+ BAB): 166 swings/minute
TWF (14 BAB): 176 swings/minute
THF (15+ BAB): 81 swings/minute
S&B (15+ BAB): 89 swings/minute

Consider that rogue splash is +6.5 damage per swing.

Consider that only 5% of all those swings will miss.

Let's use your "average melee group". I'll assume the warchanter is one of the TWF, that THF are using greataxes and others are using khopeshes.

Thanks to the improved Inspire Courage, the TWFers will do 1277.37 extra damage/minute, the THFers will do 176.985 extra damage/minute and the S&B will do 114.1525 extra damage/minute... for a total of 1568.5075 damage/minute. That's if the bard stays pure.

If he splashes rogue, he wins +6.5 damage per swing and his swing rates climbs up to 176 swings per minute. This means that he gains a total of 1086.8 damage/minute from the sneak attacks. Then, you've got to factor the extra swings. For the bard the trade off to be worthwhile, in that specific party, the bard would have to hit for 50.71 damage per swing (without his rogue sneak attack) which is perfectly achievable.

Then, you add the subjective value of Evasion.

Of course, there is a lot of assumptions... but you got to if you want to get mathematical.

EinarMal
01-30-2009, 11:11 AM
Consider the following attack rates:

TWF (15+ BAB): 166 swings/minute
TWF (14 BAB): 176 swings/minute
THF (15+ BAB): 81 swings/minute
S&B (15+ BAB): 89 swings/minute


Consider that rogue splash is +6.5 damage per swing.
Consider that only 5% of all those swings will miss.

Let's use your "average melee group". I'll assume the warchanter is one of the TWF, that THF are using greataxes and others are using khopeshes.

Thanks to the improved Inspire Courage, the TWFers will do 1277.37 extra damage/minute, the THFers will do 176.985 extra damage/minute and the S&B will do 114.1525 extra damage/minute... for a total of 1568.5075 damage/minute. That's if the bard stays pure.

If he splashes rogue, he wins +6.5 damage per swing and his swing rates climbs up to 176 swings per minute. This means that he gains a total of 1086.8 damage/minute from the sneak attacks. Then, you've got to factor the extra swings. For the bard the trade off to be worthwhile, in that specific party, the bard would have to hit for 50.71 damage per swing (without his rogue sneak attack) which is perfectly achievable.

Then, you add the subjective value of Evasion.

Of course, there is a lot of assumptions... but you got to if you want to get mathematical.

You are making this way more complicated then it needs to be. Just consider what happens per swing.

Bard takes level of Rogue, Bard gains +5.5 damage per swing (you lose +1 courage)
Party loses -1 damage per swing

If number of weapons swingning (other than Bard) =6 party loses.

The end....

You seem to also be factoring in haste boost which maybe nets you 15s of increased speed per boost or a grand total of 1 minute 30 seconds counting activation time, loss seconds while moving and not swinging etc... and that is being generous. Again if you factor in missed sneak attacks from having agro and the haste boost it might be even in a 6 man group.

Ok haha you are also using the fact that you now have lower BAB, good luck hitting anything with power attack on without using divine power clickies at level 20.

You are totally cheating the numbers...

Borror0
01-30-2009, 11:30 AM
If number of weapons swingning (other than Bard) =6 party loses.

The end....
It's far from being that simplistic.

Ok haha you are also using the fact that you now have lower BAB, good luck hitting anything with power attack on without using divine power clickies at level 20.
Your warchanter misses a lot?

EinarMal
01-30-2009, 11:39 AM
It's far from being that simplistic.

Your warchanter misses a lot?

Make snide comments all you want

Bard 18/Rogue 2 Warchanter
BAB 14
Str 12
Song 9
Haste 1
Focus 1
Weapon 5
TWF -4 (No room for OTWF)
PA -5

+33 or you use a worse off hand weapon that is pretty low for (I would bet) level 20 content.

Counting in extra swings is unlikely to work with a good offhand weapon and power attack on. You are going to start to miss, plus you are not getting constant sneak attacks. Your assumptions are poor.

Borror0
01-30-2009, 11:47 AM
Your assumptions are poor.
At worse, the build has got better DPS in six man group and has slightly lower DPS in TWF-heavy raid group... but has Evasion and Haste Boost?

EinarMal
01-30-2009, 11:56 AM
At worse, the build has got better DPS in six man group and has slightly lower DPS in TWF-heavy raid group... but has Evasion and Haste Boost?

Yes with 50 less spell points, and possibly missing out on other Bard enhancements. In theory the song enhancements could increase as well. Inspired damage IV should be at 17 so you are ok there, Inspired Attack IV(which would be really costly) would happen at 18.

It isn't a terrible build by any means, but not a slam dunk on a Bard which still benefits from more levels for song power, spell duration, and spell points. Warchanters are pretty light on the spell points as it is. Fitting in Extend is not all that simple either.

Borror0
01-30-2009, 11:58 AM
Warchanters are pretty light on the spell points as it is.
Rhetorical question: What does your warchanter need SPs for?

EDIT: Extend is handy, but not necessary.

EinarMal
01-30-2009, 12:00 PM
Rhetorical question: What does your warchanter need SPs for?

EDIT: Extend is handy, but not necessary.

At level 20 an extended displacement will last for 4 minutes, that is handy to pass out as a standard buff (share the wealth my friend).

You think all the tanks in your group would rather be doing (as a party) a fraction more DPS or have permanent displacement?

EinarMal
01-30-2009, 12:22 PM
Rhetorical question: What does your warchanter need SPs for?



I would also add this kind of attitude really bugs me from mostly warchanters who care only about their own buffs/DPS. Spell points can be used for handing out freedom of movement to everyone, displacing the other tanks, throwing out the occasional odd emergency heal, GH for skills/saves. Not everyone has gear for all that stuff. To say on a casting class what do you need spell points for seems kind of ridiculous to me. If you have enough spell points then you are not handing out enough buffs to others.

Tanka
01-30-2009, 12:24 PM
So, you consider it is worth taking a fighter/barb level to avoid a 3 sec lag after shrines?
Never been debuffed before, have you?

Venar
01-30-2009, 12:37 PM
Sometimes.
Then, i rebuff. Tried it?
And, if you are fighting mobs who debuff (like the odd beholder) then take that weapon you are proficient with as a bard.


As for Borroro, do any math you want, it's all false numbers, because it assumes everyone is swinging away all the time.
It is just not the reality. Sometimes the bard will stop and sing, sometimes the party is split, sometimes some people are jumping around. Bottom line is smashing immobile portals is not everything in DDO. If you do a hound, i'd rather have my hunting team get the undispellable +1/+2 then my bard/rogue in the middle get some sneak attacks.


I'd rather the entire party gets +1 to-hit and +2 DMG then a single guy gets a few sneak attacks.

Hendrik
01-30-2009, 12:42 PM
Our inspiring friends, the Bards, are today's feature. Their first capstone does a little bit of everything, just like they do:

Bard Musical Prodigy
Prereq: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

Edit: Insert standard disclaimer here, that I keep forgetting to write during my initial drafts. Subject to change during testing, may be nothing like this once it goes live, etc.


Just made my Bard very happy!

Thank you Eladrin!

:cool:

Borror0
01-30-2009, 12:44 PM
I would also add this kind of attitude really bugs me from mostly warchanters who care only about their own buffs/DPS.
I don't really care only about my own buffs/DPS, but with such a short duration Displacement is not currently worth casting on others.

AS a result, I have a lot of free SPs for... Cure Serious wounds?

Verdant_Force
01-30-2009, 01:24 PM
We really wanted to make this:

Bard Theme Music
Prereqs: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to change the dungeon background music to a different, random song. (No cooldown.)

PLEASE tell me that the old marketplace tent music will be one of those random songs!!!

I miss those drums!! lol

Makdar
01-30-2009, 02:57 PM
Several points of view on this.

1) Look at things purely from the how many feats is it perspective.
2) Look at it from the overall, "Does it break the game/class perspective."

All in all, it's definitely a nice boost for the capstoned bard. Does it break the game? Don't think so. Doesn't make a level 20 bard unbeatable or unstopable in any way.


I am becoming concerned about the capstones in general.

We seem to havea major case of Hit or Miss... and the Hit is usually a critical that makes other options nigh unthinkable.

This Capstone seems quite powerful (barring the massive IMMUNE issue) In Effect it has the power of 8 or so Feat... including 2 epic Feat.

Lingering Song
Spell Penetration
Spell Focus Enchantment
Greater Spell Focus Enchantment
Mental Toughness
Extra Bardic Music
Epic Charisma x2

Not exactly what I'd call balanced.

I'm not asking for it to benerfed mind you just saying that you should becareful with how powerful these are becoming.

Aesop

Angelus_dead
01-30-2009, 03:06 PM
Does it break the game? Don't think so. Doesn't make a level 20 bard unbeatable or unstopable in any way.
Anti-Nirvana fallacy: A flaw can still be a bad idea even if it doesn't completely break the system.

All game-breakers are mistakes, but not every mistake is a game-breaker.

Wrustle
01-30-2009, 03:13 PM
PLEASE tell me that the old marketplace tent music will be one of those random songs!!!

I miss those drums!! lol


Oh I almost forgot about the drums...... Loved those funky drums! Especially the break-down during the middle part of the song.

muffinlad
01-30-2009, 04:12 PM
The ability to Upload your own music would be nice. However, someone uploading "Let's get it on" to play as their inspire heroics might be destracting....

muffinharoldhill

Makdar
01-30-2009, 05:04 PM
Anti-Nirvana fallacy: A flaw can still be a bad idea even if it doesn't completely break the system.

All game-breakers are mistakes, but not every mistake is a game-breaker.

Interesting concept. Of course, I've read that one renown philosopher once, spent the morning constructing everything known about life through philosphopical thought and then proceeded to spend the afternoon philosphising that what he'd rationalized in the morning couldn't possibly be true.

Hence, no one is truely correct about anything and Turbine decides what this game is or isn't. No need to waste anymore time discussing it. :)

nbhs275
01-30-2009, 05:29 PM
The ability to Upload your own music would be nice. However, someone uploading "Let's get it on" to play as their inspire heroics might be destracting....

muffinharoldhill

oooooooh yea! lets get it on!

arcsonist
01-31-2009, 06:36 AM
We really wanted to make this:

Bard Theme Music
Prereqs: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to change the dungeon background music to a different, random song. (No cooldown.)

Play that sad walking a way song from the Incredible Hulk


David Banner sad song pls..

Aeneas
01-31-2009, 01:19 PM
This is a really sweet capstone for casting oriented bards - however i don't regret splashing that level of fighter on my melee bard, master's touch still makes the game unplayable.

Angelus_dead
01-31-2009, 01:27 PM
This is a really sweet capstone for casting oriented bards - however i don't regret splashing that level of fighter on my melee bard, master's touch still makes the game unplayable.
I's a bad thing that you're stuck with an unchangeable splash-level on a character just because you had to work around a bug that might someday get removed.

Vyr_Vandalous
02-07-2009, 04:29 AM
This is a really sweet capstone for casting oriented bards - however i don't regret splashing that level of fighter on my melee bard, master's touch still makes the game unplayable.

Your Mistake of taking 1 level of fighter for weapon proficiency does not make masters touch feature ruin the game or unplayable.

All it means is that you made a mistake and need to reroll.

I have several types of bard's for this reason.. each has their own virtues.

You should accept responsibility for your build and be greatful for masters touch. It has changed the game in many positive ways for casters who run out of SP'S who are then bored.

Junts
02-07-2009, 05:10 AM
Your Mistake of taking 1 level of fighter for weapon proficiency does not make masters touch feature ruin the game or unplayable.

All it means is that you made a mistake and need to reroll.

I have several types of bard's for this reason.. each has their own virtues.

You should accept responsibility for your build and be greatful for masters touch. It has changed the game in many positive ways for casters who run out of SP'S who are then bored.



no,the problem is the massive lag it causes!

maddmatt70
02-07-2009, 10:52 AM
I don't really care only about my own buffs/DPS, but with such a short duration Displacement is not currently worth casting on others.

AS a result, I have a lot of free SPs for... Cure Serious wounds?

All good bards displace their tanks no matter what type of bard it is.

Borror0
02-07-2009, 11:08 AM
All good bards displace their tanks no matter what type of bard it is.
Against who? Arry? Red names?:rolleyes:

Tanka
02-07-2009, 11:34 AM
Against who? Arry? Red names?:rolleyes:
Remember, matt plays a Bard for Axer. There are certain expectations there.

maddmatt70
02-07-2009, 01:00 PM
Against who? Arry? Red names?:rolleyes:

At all times physical damage is present unless in the rare scenario the mobs had true sight. 50 percent damage mitigation for the win... I have a battle bard who presently has 900 sp due to shroud spell point item, but even when I had only 600ish the tanks in the group always had displacement on and other bard buffs and this didn't stop me from killing alot of things..

Edit: you mention the shroud I don't displace there other then when I am with 1 other melee on the elemental of course - that would be the other exception because we have an unofficial self buff policy on those because we do speeds.. I do buff on the run as much as I can or in between fights by the way.

Borror0
02-07-2009, 01:38 PM
At all times physical damage is present unless in the rare scenario the mobs had true sight.
At end game, it's rarely worth the effort. When it is, I can afford it with my current SPs.

maddmatt70
02-07-2009, 01:52 PM
At end game, it's rarely worth the effort. When it is, I can afford it with my current SPs.

It is always worth playing a high caliber bard. I constantly cast spells buff people and myself in between fights. It is one of the great things about playing a bard is just how much difference you can make. Oh on hangover she doesn't record any kills, but quests are always fast and smooth as silk. Raibez gets alot of kills provides alot of dps and still maintains the same smooth as silk quality. Displacement is literally one of the 5 or so most powerful spells in the game - it makes everybody's life so much easier. I love giving clerics more freedom which this spell in effect does. I could go on and on, but buffing is part of what being a bard is about. Do you also decide its not worth the effort to play a song or haste a party because displacement is just as powerful?

Junts
02-07-2009, 01:58 PM
Borr, if you dont see the value of a 'have 61 ac!' buff for trash mobs, you're just being closeminded; even if everyons using wops, vod devils and hound reavers, etc, get some swings off, and they do hurt on hard/elite.

Borror0
02-07-2009, 02:02 PM
Borr, if you dont see the value of a 'have 61 ac!' buff for trash mobs, you're just being closeminded
Tell me in what raid is it worth Displacing everyone, all the time, up to a point where it would cost me all my SPs?

bobbryan2
02-07-2009, 02:09 PM
tell Me In What Raid Is It Worth Displacing everyone, all The Time, Up To A Point Where It Would Cost Me all My Sps?

Dq?

maddmatt70
02-07-2009, 02:21 PM
Tell me in what raid is it worth Displacing everyone, all the time, up to a point where it would cost me all my SPs?

Haha silly intimidate tank. Vod is the best example when I run rabiez in there I displace 2-3 times every single melee. The caster will get 1-2 other times. Displacement totally owns in vod - it just owns. I try to displace the melee when I am on my bards in the hound as well - it also makes a big difference there. Hangover has made a living off damage mitigation and healing. It is all in the details. I can tell you just don't get it. My guild the prophets (Art is our leader:)) are about buffing - our rangers cast jump and resists our wizards buff up folks like Christmas trees our clerics believe in buffs. We give out the Axer package to people who are not Axer - what a revolutionary concept. We are one of the most successful guilds on Khyber - I wonder why.

Borror0
02-07-2009, 02:56 PM
We are one of the most successful guilds on Khyber - I wonder why.
Lack of confidence certainly is not an issue with you.

madmax79
02-15-2009, 03:30 AM
Why cant we have the same Bard animation capabilities like in LOTRO, i mean you guys have a way to make it work somehow? It would bring another aspect to DDo game, having players actually playing the songs instead of the same old song over and over again. At least outside Quests, it would be awesome.

Just a thought.

Rog
02-19-2009, 04:43 AM
be carful now lunarsong will be a very happy bard might even sing drunken songs of praise and clear out the bar
nice i like it a lot:)
lunarsong

GlassCannon
02-19-2009, 05:40 PM
Our inspiring friends, the Bards, are today's feature. Their first capstone does a little bit of everything, just like they do:

Bard Musical Prodigy
Prereq: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

Edit: Insert standard disclaimer here, that I keep forgetting to write during my initial drafts. Subject to change during testing, may be nothing like this once it goes live, etc.

My Virtuoso loves you.

GlassCannon
02-19-2009, 05:41 PM
Why cant we have the same Bard animation capabilities like in LOTRO, i mean you guys have a way to make it work somehow? It would bring another aspect to DDo game, having players actually playing the songs instead of the same old song over and over again. At least outside Quests, it would be awesome.

Just a thought.

I'd personally prefer to limit the Guitar Hero aspect of this game. It's challenging enough already... I don't need to stop running away from Suulomades and trying to keep everyone healed to suddenly bust out some tunes in VoD to rebuff the two tanks that died and lost them. I like the One-Click Play.

Cyr
03-02-2009, 04:04 PM
meh

Rog
03-03-2009, 11:33 AM
I was planning on saving that for Druids. ;)

you say druid.....i will hold you to that Yes yes druids ty been waiting 3 years for those words

maddmatt70
03-12-2009, 06:02 PM
Hmm. I don't really understand this capstone. It is just like the ranger capstone for ranged characters, the fighter capstone for offensive fighters and this is the bard capstone for non melee oriented bards. All of these capstones are different then the other capstones because they are actually a last ditch effort to save these type of builds. A capstone should never be an attempt to save a build type. For my spellsinger healing bard with the sorcerer splash I would gain about 300 spell points at level 20, but was giving up +1 to hit and damage on my inspire courage and 1 to my spell penetration before this capstone. That actually seems like a fair trade if you ask me rather than this capstone which means I give up 3 on my spell penetration, 3 on my dc on enchantment spells, 1 on my dc for all spells, and +1 on my inspire courage all for just 250 sp I will get with sorc splash.

TEK
03-12-2009, 06:09 PM
Hmm. I don't really understand this capstone. It is just like the ranger capstone for ranged characters, the fighter capstone for offensive fighters and this is the bard capstone for non melee oriented bards. All of these capstones are different then the other capstones because they are actually a last ditch effort to save these type of builds. A capstone should never be an attempt to save a build type. For my spellsinger healing bard with the sorcerer splash I would gain about 300 spell points at level 20, but was giving up +1 to hit and damage on my inspire courage and 1 to my spell penetration before this capstone. That actually seems like a fair trade if you ask me rather than this capstone which means I give up 3 on my spell penetration, 3 on my dc on enchantment spells, 1 on my dc for all spells, and +1 on my inspire courage all for just 250 sp I will get with sorc splash.

how are you giving this up exactly? you'll get it once the level cap goes up again.

people seemingly fail to realize that multiclassing only delays the differences between pure and non pure classes. so unless lvl 20 was the ultimate goal for this game then you'll be fine, if not then the jokes on ALL of us.

Kyllinge
03-19-2009, 04:18 PM
I just want a way to respec my levels to remove that 1 level of something else and turn my toons back to pure. Not quite fair to offer a reward for being pure 2+ years after I went thru hell getting all the stuff with multi-classed toons.

vtecfiend99
04-04-2009, 04:39 PM
Lack of confidence certainly is not an issue with you.

Confidence is something that is in no short supply from EVERYONE on the forums hhaha

Shade
04-28-2009, 03:28 PM
We give out the Axer package to people who are not Axer - what a revolutionary concept

haha awesome. Borror needs an axer package to cheer him up I think.

I added the term to the wiki also to help players with buffs:
http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Glossary

sly_1
11-27-2009, 08:53 PM
what bards need is a form of curse song. from another 3.x dnd rpg:



Type of Feat: General

Prerequisite: Bard 1, Perform 3

Specifics: Bards are able to sing a song that can curse their enemies. Deafened creatures are not affected by the bard's singing. The song affects all enemies within 30 feet and lasts for 10 rounds. The higher the bard's final Perform skill and class level, the more powerful the Curse song. All of the penalties listed are additive.

* 3 (modified) Perform and Bard Level 1: -1 to Attack and Damage rolls.
* 6 (modified) Perform and Bard Level 2: -1 to Will Saves.
* 9 (modified) Perform and Bard Level 3: -1 to Damage rolls and -1 to Fortitude Saves.
* 12 (modified) Perform and Bard Level 6: -1 to Reflex saves, -1 to Skill rolls.
* 15 (modified) Perform and Bard Level 8: -1 to Attack rolls, 8 damage.
* 18 (modified) Perform and Bard Level 12: -2 to Dodge Armor Class, -1 to Skill rolls.
* 21 (modified) Perform and Bard Level 14: -1 to Damage rolls, 8 damage and -1 Dodge Armor Class.
* 24 (modified) Perform and Bard Level 15: -1 Will Saves, -1 Reflex Saves, -1 Fortitude Saves, -1 Dodge Armor Class and -1 to Skill rolls.
* 30 (modified) Perform and Bard Level 16: -1 Will Saves, 4 damage. -1 Dodge Armor Class and -1 to Skill rolls.

For each additional 5 Perform and 1 Class level in Bard an additional 2 damage and -1 to skill rolls is granted.


The duration should be extended when bards have lingering song enhancements.

Perhaps this would be a nice warchanter capstone?

Budnipper
06-01-2010, 02:36 PM
Our in (http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/itsapuzzle/01100101.jpg?t=1243551829)spiring friends, the Bards, are today's feature. Their first capstone does a little bit of everything, just like they do:

Bard Musical Prodigy
Prereq: Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

Edit: Insert standard disclaimer here, that I keep forgetting to write during my initial drafts. Subject to change during testing, may be nothing like this once it goes live, etc.

Kinda sick of watching you guys give every other class an "i win" button. Yet you leave the bard as totally useless. Most of the mobs will not fascinate after lvl 18 and frankly a pure bard build will NOT be even remotely worth while even with the crappy cap stone.

We need more offensive songs and Warchanters need more melee damage or buffs for damage.

Nothing like being a bard and wacking away on a mob for 60+ seconds only to have a sorc finger him with his i win button or the barb that comes over and bonks him on the head a single time to kill it.

It is just pitiful. And then you guys have the balls to come up with this **** or a capstone.? WoW just wow.

I'll stick with my few levels of barbarian. I can actually kill things with my bard unloike the pure bards. who buff people then go stand in the corner and pull their pud.

Ovrad
06-14-2010, 04:52 AM
Kinda sick of watching you guys give every other class an "i win" button. Yet you leave the bard as totally useless. Most of the mobs will not fascinate after lvl 18 and frankly a pure bard build will NOT be even remotely worth while even with the crappy cap stone.

We need more offensive songs and Warchanters need more melee damage or buffs for damage.

Nothing like being a bard and wacking away on a mob for 60+ seconds only to have a sorc finger him with his i win button or the barb that comes over and bonks him on the head a single time to kill it.

It is just pitiful. And then you guys have the balls to come up with this **** or a capstone.? WoW just wow.

I'll stick with my few levels of barbarian. I can actually kill things with my bard unloike the pure bards. who buff people then go stand in the corner and pull their pud.

You do realise this was a year and a half ago right?

kelemvelor
06-14-2010, 05:54 AM
He prob just noticed the capstone...

Considering bard can be played in a different number of styles, please don't dismiss the spellsinger just cause you prefer the melee bard. The capstone is actually important for the spellsingers to make up for the deficit in spell level (having 6 instead of 9).

karnokvolrath
06-14-2010, 06:07 AM
Kinda sick of watching you guys give every other class an "i win" button. Yet you leave the bard as totally useless. Most of the mobs will not fascinate after lvl 18 and frankly a pure bard build will NOT be even remotely worth while even with the crappy cap stone.

We need more offensive songs and Warchanters need more melee damage or buffs for damage.

Nothing like being a bard and wacking away on a mob for 60+ seconds only to have a sorc finger him with his i win button or the barb that comes over and bonks him on the head a single time to kill it.

It is just pitiful. And then you guys have the balls to come up with this **** or a capstone.? WoW just wow.

I'll stick with my few levels of barbarian. I can actually kill things with my bard unloike the pure bards. who buff people then go stand in the corner and pull their pud.


Funny stuff, it needs to be nominated for necro of the year.

-win button-

Diib
06-14-2010, 06:22 AM
I don't think you want to make any capstone so good that it feels required to take a pure class to 20. The ease of multiclassing as compared to 2nd edition DnD is what made 3rd edition shine. The "build your own character" aspect leads to a lot more variety for each player and, translated to this game, in more interesting party experiences.

Scalion
06-14-2010, 06:27 AM
Just an FYI for anyone who uses the 'New Posts' link and sees this thread on that list.

All but the last 5 posts are like a year old, So this thread is essentially a year old. The 5 new posts don't have anything important to say (including this one)

Thank you, that is all.