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View Full Version : Concerns about level increase being raised to 20



drachine
01-20-2009, 02:51 PM
Just voicing some real concerns I have about the level cap being raised to 20. I hope I’m wrong, but it seems like by raising the level cap to 20, DDO could be shooting itself in the foot.

1. This would be the first time DDO has ever raised the level cap four levels. This means new spells which will have to be tried and true when the cap is raised. Several very powerful 9th level spells will become available to all casters. My concern is what does a caster with Prismatic Spray mean to the rest of the game content. I think by doing this the caster will outclass most if not all of current game content such as raids and basically all quests. A higher level caster should do this, but why rush? Isn’t level 18 enough. This way you will give yourselves time to see how certain spells are effecting your game instead of giving us 3 or 4 super powerful high level spells.

2. Current content will become more or less irrelevant. People will not run certain raids anymore with 20th level characters and will demand a LOT of new ones which will need to be tried, tested and true. All the bugs worked out, etc. That’s a huge issue. Already people don’t or are reluctant to run Plane of Night, Zawabi’s Revenge, The Titan Awakes, and Ascension Chamber ( though this one for other reasons). More of your content will hold value for people to run anymore at level 20. You will need to come up with some reasons for us to want to do so. Even your newer raids will not draw nearly as much attention from 20th level parties, so your newer raids will become old much more quickly.

3. Mid level groups are tough to get parties for as it is. This will become more so with a server filled with level 20 characters.

Between all of the issues with high level content, issues that will pop up with characters using higher level abilities and spells, and making your current game content obsolete it just sounds like a recipe for disaster. How can you deliver so much in an effective manner by next mod? You are also carting along a lot of older issues with the game such as hirelings, lag, crashing and other game applications which are not working. I guess I’m concerned you guys are about to bite off more then you can chew. Judging by your responsiveness to current issues with the game.

Personally, I think people would still play the game if the cap were only raised to 18. It feels like you are trying to prove something by doing this.

Good luck.

Strakeln
01-20-2009, 02:57 PM
We've tried it your way for the past three years, time for something new.

Lifespawn
01-20-2009, 03:00 PM
2 lvls or 4 levels doesn't matter 9th level spells come in at 17 for wiz and clerics and 18 for sorcs

nytewolf
01-20-2009, 03:00 PM
Concerning question 1:
You are aware that the spell you sighted (Prismatic Spray) is a 7th lvl spell that was not added?? It would have been available at 13th.
Also the 9th lvl of spells is available at 17th for a straight Cleric or Wiz, 128 for A Sorc so even if cap was raised to 18 the spells your worried about will be added.

frugal_gourmet
01-20-2009, 03:03 PM
I am definitely concerned with seeing some of my favorite raids go even more by the wayside. But, so be it. Experience and leveling is a very addictive and fun feedback mechanism, and having more of it in the game is a big plus.

I wonder, for instance, how the Shroud will be. Will it continue to be the premiere run? How easy will it be with 4 more levels under our belt? Will the gear garnered from running it remain supreme?

Gratch
01-20-2009, 03:05 PM
WHat spells can a >L17 wizard or cleric cast that an L17 wizard/cleric cannot: 0

Once they give us 17, the level 9 spells are out.

They have said they are holding off on wish and time stop as the more powerful/tougher to implement level 9 spells until a later module.

4 levels brings us the capstone enhancements, and will actually give some of us the feeling that xp matters (somewhat). Though I'm still guessing there may be an L20 character on the servers within day 1.

As for the older raids. There was some hope {rumor} that at some point they'll have time to update them to be similiar to the devil's assault level spread quest... where normal = L10, hard = L15, elite = L20 (as well as updating the rewards).

Borror0
01-20-2009, 03:05 PM
There are advantages to increasing the cap level. It's a matter of how turbine exploits them.

There are drawbacks in increasing the cap level. It's a matter of how Turbine offsets them as well.

Nahual
01-20-2009, 03:16 PM
They have changed raids to make them more demanding.

Just look at Reaver now. The run before on elite was very easy. Now it can be very difficult. So they will probably twink them a little on elite to be tuffer for lvl 20s is my guess. In a patch probably after people figure out easy ways to run them.

Leyoni
01-20-2009, 03:30 PM
2. Current content will become more or less irrelevant. People will not run certain raids anymore with 20th level characters and will demand a LOT of new ones which will need to be tried, tested and true. All the bugs worked out, etc. That’s a huge issue. Already people don’t or are reluctant to run Plane of Night, Zawabi’s Revenge, The Titan Awakes, and Ascension Chamber ( though this one for other reasons). More of your content will hold value for people to run anymore at level 20. You will need to come up with some reasons for us to want to do so. Even your newer raids will not draw nearly as much attention from 20th level parties, so your newer raids will become old much more quickly.

3. Mid level groups are tough to get parties for as it is. This will become more so with a server filled with level 20 characters.

Concerning both points:

There are always going to be players leveling new characters. But, they will not stop and run what is now mid-level content multiple times. That means the opportunity to find groups diminishes. This happens because players blow past the levels and the content on their way to whatever is the current high-end content.

So, OP is right in their concern. At the same time, those who reply that it is the nature of the game are also correct. The concern has been there at every level cap increase.

Most of it is a self-induced problem. The ability to run limited content multiple times for inflated XP means players speed level thru while ignoring anything that doesn't give them a good return. Old quests seldom produce "must have" loot. So the quests only get run if they produce good XP for minimal risk. Quests that produce "must have" loot or good XP are mined until the player's goals are met. The remaining quests are ignored completely until it is time to grind out 1750 favor.

This is something that could have been avoided when the game was first launched. At this point, however, it is moot. The result is that Turbine must continue on its present path with DDO or the game will collapse.

Dexxaan
01-20-2009, 03:40 PM
we've Tried It Your Way For The Past Three Years, Time For Something New.

Qft.

Angelus_dead
01-20-2009, 03:40 PM
2. Current content will become more or less irrelevant. People will not run certain raids anymore with 20th level characters and will demand a LOT of new ones which will need to be tried, tested and true. All the bugs worked out, etc. That’s a huge issue. Already people don’t or are reluctant to run Plane of Night, Zawabi’s Revenge, The Titan Awakes, and Ascension Chamber
You are correct that this is a serious problem: content obsolescence in the face of advancing character power is a major pitfall for any MMORPG.

The best way for the game developers to deal with it is to make those raids floating difficulty: every time the level cap goes up by about +4 above the raid, go back and edit the quest (monsters, traps, loot, everything) to match the new level cap. The old version can be left around as an option, or not.

The key to understanding the problem is to notice that when you're deciding to add a quest of level X, you're not really planning on X as an absolute number. New content is accurately viewed as targeted for either StartingLevel + Y, or FinalLevel - Z. Quests which were placed relative to the starting level (STK, Delera) can remain at the same level forever, because StartingLevel never changes. But FinalLevel does increase as the developers add more levels to player characters, so quests positioned relative to it (VON, Laliat, VOD) need to adjust upwards as FinalLevel changes.

To see how the largest MMO deals with that, I direct you to WOTLK Naxxramas.

swooshrp
01-20-2009, 03:42 PM
An easy way to breathe in fresh air for the older raids is revamp the raid loot some and add to the existing. For the pure curiousity people would run these raids again just to see what was added.

Turbine could add some form of mechanic that adjusts the raid loot based on group's average level. Thus a group of 20s running Plane of Night would get the higher end of raid loot. As always its aup to how well you roll, but a high enough group level opens up a second set of raid loot tables to roll from.

TFPAQ
01-20-2009, 04:13 PM
we've Tried It Your Way For The Past Three Years, Time For Something New.

Qft ...

Wizzly_Bear
01-20-2009, 04:20 PM
We've tried it your way for the past three years, time for something new.
couldnt have said it better

qft

Vuedoo
01-20-2009, 04:31 PM
Without Change and Growth in the Game... The Adventure Ceases to exist.

The Raids that take the blunt of New Content are those that require Pre's to Re Enter. Namley Reaver, DQ, and Velah and soon to come SoS.<--even though not a raid. Only way I see Myself ever running them again after new content is when my guild sets a night aside to get enough together who have the time to redo all the pres and on to raid. your right that pug groups will slim down for for these more than they already have, but as for raids with timers I think there will always be oportunities heck tempest spine is still my favorite raid and I run it whenever I get a chance with some old 28 point retirees waiting to be rerolled.

For the first month or so though 80% or more of the population will be capping out in the new Content. 1 being me, I have been anticipating mod 9 now for what feels like an eternity.

My own opinion is this cannot hurt the game at all, if anything by making the world more vast it would keep the attention of all the new to ddo people as well. and Turbine has done a great great job with keeping everyone happy as far as new content for all ranges of lvls. The bigger problem is when theres nothing left to discover or accomplish.

That is the Question "When does the Adventure End?"

kingfisher
01-20-2009, 04:51 PM
imo

make the favor rewards better, not loot but abilities granted like the p-buffs
increase the favor rewards plateaus for each house and add another teir 400/1750/????
remove flagging for raids once you are above a certain level or have completed raid a number of times
put favor minimums on dragonmarks


loot is cool, but making uber loot in old raids just to get people to run them seems silly. dont we have enough loot?

Memnir
01-20-2009, 05:04 PM
My only major concern is that they put out enough quests to justify the four level bump - and that the quests are fun & challenging enough to be repeatable for a long time. Of minor concern is will the vast amount of new spells suck as bad as the last new crop of spells did?

noscarrell
01-20-2009, 05:13 PM
Without Change and Growth in the Game... The Adventure Ceases to exist.



That is the Question "When does the Adventure End?"

the answer is simple,,when the adventure ends so does the game!!there is always someone who thinks we are wrong and that we shouldnt press forward with change.open your mind friend and see that this is first and foremost a ROLEPLAYING game.we have strayed from that point and need to remeber that it is fun to get those new levels and explore the seemingly endless possibilities of our imagination.im sure that the devs thought about the facts of overpowering characters,spells,weapons, and armor!! WOOT WOOT!! im gettin excited to see all the kool stuff we get to play with and this barbarian hopes to see us go epic soon!!
let me just say this,,the point they are PROVING (not trying to prove)is that this game is better than all other mmo's and games PERIOD because of the complexity and the simplicity.the balance if you will that every table dm must have in his campain in order to keep his players interested!!
DEVS AND TURBINE HEAR MANI ROAR!!YA HAVE GOT THIS BARB INTERESTED!!never listen to the nay sayers and keep up the good work!!heheheheeee

caution
01-20-2009, 05:22 PM
The jump is a scary thing for many of us, filled with much uncertainty.

At least it should give us a clear picture of the whole system in action (so people don't have to complain about needing re-specs anymore).

Scaling & availability of high level content will most definitely be a big issue as it is already struggling from the changes in level cap (just running titan or reaver at lvl 12 has you get power levelled in todays groups).

Lets just hope Turbine are quick enough to deal with the impacts and react/make any balancing changes required.

Fourfingers
01-20-2009, 05:28 PM
They have changed raids to make them more demanding.

Just look at Reaver now. The run before on elite was very easy. Now it can be very difficult. So they will probably twink them a little on elite to be tuffer for lvl 20s is my guess. In a patch probably after people figure out easy ways to run them.

Actually, this would be a step in the wrong direction. That raid was not designed for level 20 characters, so it should not be adjusted. Just like they should not have to go back and adjust any other raids (Velah, Titan, Demon Queen, etc.) Those raids were developed and released for characters appropriate for the level cap at that time. If they do go back and modify them then where do they stop? Waterworks? haha..

And if I understand your point correctly, you are saying every raid needs to be adjusted upwards as time goes on and level caps increase? So, Velah, released at level 10 if I'm not mistaken, run by level 10 characters, was a challenge to defeat on normal, let alone get elite favor. Now that time has passed, you're saying it needs to be made challenging for higher level toons? What then do level 10 toons get to look forward to now? Changes like this need to be well thought out before implemented.. and as history has shown, sometimes that's pretty challenging for Turbine to implement without causing additional grief.

transtemporal
01-20-2009, 05:30 PM
I have concerns too. Valid ones, that require a measured response, hmmmmmm...

swooshrp
01-20-2009, 05:34 PM
imo

make the favor rewards better, not loot but abilities granted like the p-buffs
increase the favor rewards plateaus for each house and add another teir 400/1750/????
remove flagging for raids once you are above a certain level or have completed raid a number of times
put favor minimums on dragonmarks


loot is cool, but making uber loot in old raids just to get people to run them seems silly. dont we have enough loot?

A lot of people would disagree with too much loot.

Adding more raid loot in the old raids is a simple fix, not a long term solution in never ran quests. As mentioned it would depend on what level group enters the raid. If the average level is say 4 levels (as an example) more than the quest difficulty, a higher tier of raid items list would/could be available.

To further explain, running VON on elite is level what 13? (cant remember how they changed the scaling) but lets say 13, and a raid group enters with an average level of 18. At completion, the raid loot generated would have a chance to be rolled from a second higher tier of raid items, but still chances to get the lower level items. At current end game, level 20 groups could pull from up to Reaver, still leaving shroud, VOD, and Hound till post 20.

Its a simple solution with limited availability that a intended leveled group would not get any of the "extra" raid loot planned for the end gamers, plus you could add ML:+4 to the level of existing raid loot in the upper tier raid loot table to allow only those leveled toons access to them.

Another possible idea, is ability to scale the existing raids post Elite and have the ability to roll from a different higher raid loot table much the same way.

muffinlad
01-20-2009, 05:41 PM
Just voicing some real concerns I have about the level cap being raised to 20. I hope I’m wrong, but it seems like by raising the level cap to 20, DDO could be shooting itself in the foot.

1. This would be the first time DDO has ever raised the level cap four levels. This means new spells which will have to be tried and true when the cap is raised. Several very powerful 9th level spells will become available to all casters. My concern is what does a caster with Prismatic Spray mean to the rest of the game content. I think by doing this the caster will outclass most if not all of current game content such as raids and basically all quests. A higher level caster should do this, but why rush? Isn’t level 18 enough. This way you will give yourselves time to see how certain spells are effecting your game instead of giving us 3 or 4 super powerful high level spells.

2. Current content will become more or less irrelevant. People will not run certain raids anymore with 20th level characters and will demand a LOT of new ones which will need to be tried, tested and true. All the bugs worked out, etc. That’s a huge issue. Already people don’t or are reluctant to run Plane of Night, Zawabi’s Revenge, The Titan Awakes, and Ascension Chamber ( though this one for other reasons). More of your content will hold value for people to run anymore at level 20. You will need to come up with some reasons for us to want to do so. Even your newer raids will not draw nearly as much attention from 20th level parties, so your newer raids will become old much more quickly.

3. Mid level groups are tough to get parties for as it is. This will become more so with a server filled with level 20 characters.

Between all of the issues with high level content, issues that will pop up with characters using higher level abilities and spells, and making your current game content obsolete it just sounds like a recipe for disaster. How can you deliver so much in an effective manner by next mod? You are also carting along a lot of older issues with the game such as hirelings, lag, crashing and other game applications which are not working. I guess I’m concerned you guys are about to bite off more then you can chew. Judging by your responsiveness to current issues with the game.

Personally, I think people would still play the game if the cap were only raised to 18. It feels like you are trying to prove something by doing this.

Good luck.

If the spells are as bland, and trivial as the 8th level spells they have already introduced, I dont see a problem.

If they expand and improve 8th level spells to the power they should be, then scale 9th, the higher level quests will need to be tough, indeed.

As 20th level "caps" the characters, they will have plenty of time to develop more content and more fun until the next version of the game comes out.

muffincapper

kaidendager
01-20-2009, 05:41 PM
Raising the cap to 20 (at least in my opinion) is alot like graduating from high school. Its scary as hell to anyone that loves this game as much as many of us do. The only thing we can do is sprint at the future arms wide open rather than with hesitancy and fear. The end result will be the same except those that greeted change with open arms and a willing mindset will have propeled themselves into positions the rest of the population wishes they could be in. Then come the nerfs... (but that is a whole other thread)

I'm greatly concerned that the "Dead Zone" will be doubling from 8-12 to 8-16. Leveling a character will be challenging, but I think our trust is well placed in Turbine to have already concerned this inevitability. What mechanic will be implemented to enhance this area I cannot say, but hirelings are certainly a promising concept that they are at least accounting for this.

I guess what I'm trying to say is dive in and enjoy, don't worry the water might not be the same temperature you're used to.

Fourfingers
01-20-2009, 05:42 PM
My only major concern is that they put out enough quests to justify the four level bump
I suspect everyone can still get XP from the last round of quests released since you stop accumulating the "first time" bonuses once you are XP capped.



...the vast amount of new spells...you mean level 9 spells? we're getting the same number of spells we would for a 2 level increase (as far as I know) since spell levels cap out at 9.. unless DDO decides to take things in a different direction. ?

esoitl
01-20-2009, 05:45 PM
The best way for the game developers to deal with it is to make those raids floating difficulty: every time the level cap goes up by about +4 above the raid, go back and edit the quest (monsters, traps, loot, everything) to match the new level cap. The old version can be left around as an option, or not.

I would say the old version almost has to stay around.
I agree with what you're saying but I think it should become as the market barracks is with the difficulties increasing in level. Take away the lower level raids and then you have even less content for those that run it at level(and yes, on Sarlona there are still groups running Vault of Night at level.... not so much Titan or Demon Queen but Velah still gets smacked around.)

Would be somewhat hard to implement I think but would at least get some action back into the older raids.... the loot might be a bit of a sticking point though.

Arkat
01-20-2009, 05:47 PM
Drive-by thread. OP probably won't post anymore after numerous folks pointed out that 9th level spells would be available even if the level cap was only raised to 18th.

OP, please think carefully before you post.