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Kromize
01-07-2009, 12:44 AM
Well...I'm playing my ninja..err...rogue...and I sneak up on a group of mobs. I sneak attack and instantly kill one, but the rest see me, even when I'm still in sneak mode. Why does it do that? Why can't they realize he died, but not see you, and instead look around or get cautious?

kamimitsu
01-07-2009, 12:55 AM
Distance. Close monsters seem to "know" you are there (presumably they get a bonus to spot and listen for circumstances and proximity). If they are farther away, they'll go into a search pattern and start looking for you (though they do a good job at finding you unless you move away VERY quickly). Two caveats: If there are archers or casters nearby they will fire around a bit until they hit you (usually doesn't take long), if there are teleporting monsters nearby (devils, orthons) they will teleport right on to you and start the beatdown.

Why? I dunno, probably something to do with the way monster AI targets. The is a lot of info in the Rogue forum on this and other sneaky matters.

Kromize
01-07-2009, 01:36 AM
One more thing, that I know has been posted, but just want to say myself.

Make it so that mobs loose sight of you when they can't see you. It's so annoying when you run away, sneak, and find that they know exactly where you are...no matter what...

Uska
01-07-2009, 02:00 AM
One more thing, that I know has been posted, but just want to say myself.

Make it so that mobs loose sight of you when they can't see you. It's so annoying when you run away, sneak, and find that they know exactly where you are...no matter what...

Now they should be able to automaticly find you but then again you shouldnt be able to automaticly sneak up again as they do know your about.

Uska
01-07-2009, 02:01 AM
Well...I'm playing my ninja..err...rogue...and I sneak up on a group of mobs. I sneak attack and instantly kill one, but the rest see me, even when I'm still in sneak mode. Why does it do that? Why can't they realize he died, but not see you, and instead look around or get cautious?

Because we dont have improved invis and you just sneaking and of course they saw you kill their buddy. sneaking doesnt equal invis

Kromize
01-07-2009, 04:53 AM
Because we dont have improved invis and you just sneaking and of course they saw you kill their buddy. sneaking doesnt equal invis

Who said sneaking equals invisibility? And beside, Invis doesn't work much better than sneak...just cuz u kill somebody you lose it? :/ How dumb.
Hmm. If they saw me, why didn't they stop me in the 5 minutes of my dancing with him? :/ I understand them getting very cautious and looking around for whatever just killed their buddy, but knowing exactly where you are, even if you were just around a corner when you did it...now that's crazy.



Now they should be able to automaticly find you but then again you shouldnt be able to automaticly sneak up again as they do know your about.

Where exactly do you get that idea from? If I'm running away from a mob, take a corner, and go to the right of a fork road and take another corner, before the mob takes the first corner, how thw $%#@ does he know where I am? And yes, it's obvious that you shoudlnt be able to sneak up on them again very easy, but with a great sneak skill, who knows...

Xaxx
01-07-2009, 06:50 AM
so you sneak up behind a monster... stab it in the back, it dies, its friends are lookin at it as it dies... see the sword come through its chest, look behind it, see a shadow that doesnt belong, bash that shadow cause shadow = sword in back... and you wonder how they're seeing you????

umm..... yeah kinda obvious aint it..... as for gameplay mechanic, if they didnt y ou could just assasinate all of em..... and i dont think the devs would allow rogues to do that.

Talon_Moonshadow
01-07-2009, 07:54 AM
Because we dont have improved invis and you just sneaking and of course they saw you kill their buddy. sneaking doesnt equal invis

I believe this is close to the truth.

It seems if they are facing you, they will "see" you kill their buddy.

But in some cases, I have yet to figure out how they "knew" where I was and what I just did.

I have Assassinated guys without getting agro. it sems it makes noise....they come to investigate.....but if they were not looking at me they will not see me.

I've assassinated one guy, had baddies close to him not see me, but had one farther awy agro on me.....I can only assume he was looking my direction when I did it.

But I've also goten agro form monsters that were not looking my way.
Maybe there is a range for listen.......and I've also seen some evidence that there is a short moment in time where they can spin around and "see" you even if they do not appear to be facing you at the time. (I've also been attacked successfully by guys who appeared to be facing away from me when they swung)

Best results are to seperate you enemy by as far as you can.....and try to take out a guy when his friends back is turned away from you.

I'm still working on this.....more if an art than an exact science it seems.

Talon_Moonshadow
01-07-2009, 07:57 AM
so you sneak up behind a monster... stab it in the back, it dies, its friends are lookin at it as it dies... see the sword come through its chest, look behind it, see a shadow that doesnt belong, bash that shadow cause shadow = sword in back... and you wonder how they're seeing you????

umm..... yeah kinda obvious aint it..... as for gameplay mechanic, if they didnt y ou could just assasinate all of em..... and i dont think the devs would allow rogues to do that.

I think the Op (and me) would like a more technical explanation......and be able to apply it to our advantage in-game.

MrCow
01-07-2009, 08:07 AM
Make it so that mobs loose sight of you when they can't see you. It's so annoying when you run away, sneak, and find that they know exactly where you are...no matter what...

This was probably done the way it was in order to negate the issues that come with using this tactic (in most other online games this is done via "feign death"). Its often used as a way to split monsters apart, specifically tougher monsters, and often invalidates encounters that were designed that you fight the stuff as a group of monsters rather than one at a time.

Turial
01-07-2009, 08:34 AM
This was probably done the way it was in order to negate the issues that come with using this tactic (in most other online games this is done via "feign death"). Its often used as a way to split monsters apart, specifically tougher monsters, and often invalidates encounters that were designed that you fight the stuff as a group of monsters rather than one at a time.

Most likely. It kinda makes me sad because HIPS has the potential to be either cool or just silly.

Aspenor
01-07-2009, 08:39 AM
The problem with instituting a "duck behind cover and hide" stealth mechanic is that it's not how it works in PnP. Unless you have the Hide in Plain Sight ability, you must have full cover to attempt to hide after being detected, and you must have at least some cover in order to use the Hide skill at all.

as MrCow said, it makes for some silly playstyles to allow it.

Leyoni
01-07-2009, 08:59 AM
Hide in Plain Sight is the ability that is needed here. That and better skill with the sneaking and pulling....

I find that I can sneak and get in several attacks while staying in sneak mode if I'm careful about which target I pick. Mr. Cow seems to be the expert on sneak tactics and I'm nowhere close to his abilities. But, large mobs can be handled if a player takes the time.

If a player insists on a sneak attack on one monster in a large mob then they should expect to be seen fairly soon. If HIPS (the feat not the quest) were available then they might be able to execute some amazing disappearing act. As it is now a player has to set that up for themself by careful pulls to go along with sneak attacks.

Draccus
01-07-2009, 09:28 AM
I see four distinctly different reactions by nearby monsters to a successful one-shot kill (be it an assassination, a banish from stealth, or a really good sneak attack):

- Attack! Monsters that are very close to the victim will instantly attack. I'm not sure what pops me out of stealth but it all happens at once so it doesn't matter. Maybe they are making a random swing and even if they miss, I get revealed.

- Charge! Sometimes monsters that are further away (say 2+ "swing arcs") will charge right for me. I won't pop out of stealth but they know exactly where I am and make a full speed beeline to me. I think this happens when a monster is out of melee range but was facing me when I made the kill.

- Search... Sometimes monsters that are too far away to attack but close enough to hear the kill will start looking for me and swinging randomly. I think this happens when they were out of melee range and had their back to me when I made the kill. They usually find me but if I get lucky, I can often sneak away without being discovered. The monster will follow in my general area but doesn't know where I am. Note that a monster can NOT be sneak attacked or assassinated in this mode.

- Investigate... My favorite is when a monster senses something happened but isn't sure what. The monster slowly moves towards the kill spot and doesn't attack the air. It just moves around, at walking speed, while I sneak off and wait for my assassinate timer to expire. I can then move in and assassinate it even if it's still looking for me. I see this most often with cats for some reason. The cats in Ataraxia's Haven and the Vale do this quite a lot.

As for Hide in Plain Sight...I hoping that's coming in WotA III! :)

EDITED: There is a fifth reaction that still surprises me. Sometimes, a monster VERY close to one I just assassinated will do absolutely nothing. I am boosted, clickied, and poised for a fight with Monster 2 after I drop Monster 1 and he just stands there. 15 seconds later, he drops with an assassinate.

GlassCannon
01-07-2009, 04:31 PM
One more thing, that I know has been posted, but just want to say myself.

Make it so that mobs loose sight of you when they can't see you. It's so annoying when you run away, sneak, and find that they know exactly where you are...no matter what...

Even after running down a hall, around a corner, then hitting Sneak and vanishing in a hard-to reach spot...

They know precisely where to throw things. It's a disturbing break from the "realism", or even any concept of tactics and geurilla warfare.

Kromize
01-08-2009, 07:01 PM
so you sneak up behind a monster... stab it in the back, it dies, its friends are lookin at it as it dies... see the sword come through its chest, look behind it, see a shadow that doesnt belong, bash that shadow cause shadow = sword in back... and you wonder how they're seeing you????

umm..... yeah kinda obvious aint it..... as for gameplay mechanic, if they didnt y ou could just assasinate all of em..... and i dont think the devs would allow rogues to do that.

Hmm...they were all looking the other way... Did you think of that? Course not...you must be feeble minded...(;

And for a sneak attack, I would expect it to be quiet...:/ If it were actually me doing the sneak attack, I would cover the targets mouth with my hand as I stabbed and slit his throat... And common sense tells me that a fanatasy character with magical abilities that knows to to sneak, and do sneak attacks, better know how to use his magic abilities to keep the target silent...