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Riggs
01-04-2009, 02:35 PM
I have never seen a developer post about air elementals that I can recall, and would like some clarification please.

Is there a game breaking reason knockdown had to be changed from pnp rules to make it impossible to stand up around them?

As it is now;

- the dc is so high most people cannot stand up for more than 2 seconds no matter what their stats.

- Balance skill, despite the name, doesnt help you stand up if you skill is higher than your str/dex bonus. And getting up after isnt a lot of help if you keep getting knocked down every 2 seconds and starts a fresh 6 second timer. Pnp rules show a reflex save not a dex save, which would let people stand up a lot more if that was the case in DDO. And the save dc in pnp is a LOT lower than it is in DDO.

- pnp Air elementals are like the way Genies are implemented in DDO currently. One form that can 'punch' characters, then for short periods of time, followed by several turns of rest, they can assume whirlwind form and try to knock people down. but the knockdown is an attack, not a area all around that causes auto-knockdown to anyone that is within weapon range. So the implementation of how they work in pnp already exists, and in theory could be changed for air elementals also.

- Air elementals are present in every raid and flagging set of quests except Vons and Titan(well and the Sub, but beholders are another annoying broken monster). Chains and Wiz king(for Queen), Sos, Reaver, Vale and Ritual. So they are pretty much impossible to avoid if you run anything added to the game since 2 years ago.

- overrun/knockdown/charge affects players even when the monster doesnt hit you. Charging Minotaurs, Mariliths that just wander by and knock down an entire party, and air elementals that knock down everyone within range, and zip around all over throwing entire parties down basically at will.

There are many things about DDO that people love, and love playing for long periods of time.

But when most players I know of get to a point where they run into air elementals, they start getting really angry at the game, and at Turbine for adding this monster to the game, and never changing it or taking them out despite numerous complaints.

Dear Turbine, if your intention is to make otherwise happy players really, really angry at you you are succeeding. If your intention is to make a monster so broken from pnp rules that capped characters that can beat up on a pit fiend run screaming from an air elemental sighting you have succeeded.

If your intention is to so break a monster and overpower them that it is seemingly no different than a pnp DM deliberately griefing the players at the table you have succeeded by a wide margin.

If the intention is otherwise, can we as players get some kind of timeline if there is going to be a change? or some kind of feedback as to why they are designed this way? So far I do not recall seeing anything official about them after much hopeful waiting for some kind of change, and something official would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
Riggs

Griphon
01-04-2009, 03:00 PM
My guess is they needed a monster type to slow things down... With something that players couldn't save against, nor find a way around....

Example: They upped the HD of the Elementals in the Reaver raid... When it was 'too easy'.... Now it's significantly harder to CC the beasties or banish them. Why did they turn it up? Simple.. Too many Reaver Raids were being completed in 10M or less and they decided to 'fix' that..

Even though it's been stated over and again that: (paraphrasing) They have no intention of altering previous content as they see it as a waste of time.

EinarMal
01-04-2009, 03:08 PM
Even though it's been stated over and again that: (paraphrasing) They have no intention of altering previous content as they see it as a waste of time.

Ahem unless is is anti-player adjustments that is. They continually go back and make old content more difficult over time, even content many levels below cap to challenge more cap players running through old content.

Riggs
01-04-2009, 03:24 PM
Oh, and to state as well one of the reasons air elementals are so broken...

Everything in D&D is balanced in some way. Every attack has a defence, every defence has a weakness or a hole. Almost every DR has something that bypasses it. Monsters are strong at some things, weak at others.

A player could prepare defences against some attacks, or attacks vs some defenses. Potions, magic items, skills etc, there is a way past everything, a way to beat anything somehow.

Air elementals have no preparation. There is nothing a non-caster can do. Unless you can finger or destruct one the second you see it - your getting knocked down. No defence, no way around it, just pure knockdown over and over and over again.

It is not a reasonable option for someone to be told 'well just be a caster, or hide behind a caster'. Everything else in the game is beatable in some way, or some action you can take that helps. Saying sit back and wait for someone else to handle this is not a reasonable argument, or a balanced way to design a monster.

*Edit
As he said - old content is constantly being 'updated'. All the time. That quote was about raid flagging mechanisms for queen and vons.

Turial
01-04-2009, 04:19 PM
....
Air elementals have no preparation. There is nothing a non-caster or non-acrobat rogue can do. Unless you can finger or destruct one the second you see it - your getting knocked down. No defence, no way around it, just pure knockdown over and over and over again.

It is not a reasonable option for someone to be told 'well just be a caster, or hide behind a caster'. Everything else in the game is beatable in some way, or some action you can take that helps. Saying sit back and wait for someone else to handle this is not a reasonable argument, or a balanced way to design a monster.
.....

Acrobat rogues can avoid being knocked down through their showtime buff which grants immunity to knockdown.

sephiroth1084
01-04-2009, 04:28 PM
I don't know why the devs decided to remove the fire and earth elementals in the puzzle room only to replace them with air elementals. Honestly, wasn't everyone crying out for the opposite: replacing some of the air elementals in the puzzle room with earth and fire ones?

I honestly would have prefered for the elementals to gain Deathblock in this case. They really are the most irritating monster in the entire game, the least liked, and yet, they have proliferated, spreading throughout nearly all of the content. Couldn't we find something else to use?

It is very frustrating to play anything but a caster when there are air elementals about. The Reaver's Fate was a cakewalk before, and was boring for anyone that wasn't tanking or a caster/cleric. Now, it is no longer a cakewalk, but went from boring to frustrating for the non-casters, and has become frustrating for everyone else as well. Not exactly what I'd call a fix.

RATRACE931
01-04-2009, 04:45 PM
cmon guys im sure they are "Functioning as intended" just like potions that dont prot or DC being bugged on grease and sleet storm or giant with 24 con but 3,500 hitpoints.

baddax
01-04-2009, 05:10 PM
Acrobat rogues can avoid being knocked down through their showtime buff which grants immunity to knockdown.

I would also like to add that Everyone who gets "charged completely" is Immune to All Air elemental knockdown effects! Thats why its very important to get as many people charged and keeping charged as often as possible. If you are lucky then as the Casters are setting up CC then the melees can go in and get their chargees. After that its time to slice and dice. I prefer stat damagers because of the complete chaotic nature the raid atm. If you can weaken them enugh through stat damagers then when/if you loose your charge they will not be as bad to deal with, and the caster might even be able to get of some insta kills to boot. Lastly heightened Mind fog and dancing balls seem to work well for croud control of the eles.

Riggs
01-04-2009, 05:49 PM
I would also like to add that Everyone who gets "charged completely" is Immune to All Air elemental knockdown effects! Thats why its very important to get as many people charged and keeping charged as often as possible. If you are lucky then as the Casters are setting up CC then the melees can go in and get their chargees. After that its time to slice and dice. I prefer stat damagers because of the complete chaotic nature the raid atm. If you can weaken them enugh through stat damagers then when/if you loose your charge they will not be as bad to deal with, and the caster might even be able to get of some insta kills to boot. Lastly heightened Mind fog and dancing balls seem to work well for croud control of the eles.

Ummm thanks....

I was however speaking of air elementals, in the game, all over the place. Reaver raid is only one quest, it just has a lot of them.

Kinda tough to get a charge in Chain of Flame. Or the Vale. or SoS.....

xberto
01-04-2009, 06:41 PM
Air elementals have no preparation. There is nothing a non-caster can do. Unless you can finger or destruct one the second you see it - your getting knocked down. No defence, no way around it, just pure knockdown over and over and over again.


Now I don't like the air eles any more than the rest of you, however you can prepare. Bringing a caster is preparing. It's like saying there is no way to prepare for a trap filled quest because you don't want to bring a rouge.
And besides, there are alternatives to taking down air eles, perhaps less effective. A prepared group will all have a ranging combat alterntive. You spread out and range them. Of course bringing a fingerer is just so easy.

baddax
01-04-2009, 07:36 PM
Ummm thanks....

I was however speaking of air elementals, in the game, all over the place. Reaver raid is only one quest, it just has a lot of them.

Kinda tough to get a charge in Chain of Flame. Or the Vale. or SoS.....

The reaver is the place where they are the most nuissance and not only because of the shear numbers. Others Air Eles. are Easily banished,charmed,fingered etc etc., However these New and improved Reaver eles. Seem to have developed quite a resistance to standard practice, similar to the way viruses become immune to penacillin. :(

sephiroth1084
01-05-2009, 04:56 AM
I would also like to add that Everyone who gets "charged completely" is Immune to All Air elemental knockdown effects! Thats why its very important to get as many people charged and keeping charged as often as possible. If you are lucky then as the Casters are setting up CC then the melees can go in and get their chargees. After that its time to slice and dice. I prefer stat damagers because of the complete chaotic nature the raid atm. If you can weaken them enugh through stat damagers then when/if you loose your charge they will not be as bad to deal with, and the caster might even be able to get of some insta kills to boot. Lastly heightened Mind fog and dancing balls seem to work well for croud control of the eles.

True, but it does not last very long, takes some time to acquire, and can be impossible to acquire if the reaver spawns air elementals with one of his first charges, or spawns swarms back to back.

While I do appreciate that the devs have made an interesting and overlooked portion of the raid more necessary, it doesn't do much to change the fact that these are the most irritating creatures around, and that, even with this defense available, little can be done to deal with them, particularly in droves. Even a single air elemental can make for a very unpleasant play experience.

GlassCannon
01-05-2009, 07:32 AM
While I do appreciate that the devs have made an interesting and overlooked portion of the raid more necessary, it doesn't do much to change the fact that these are the most irritating creatures around, and that, even with this defense available, little can be done to deal with them, particularly in droves. Even a single air elemental can make for a very unpleasant play experience.

Especially with no Arcane Support.

Riggs
01-05-2009, 02:54 PM
Now I don't like the air eles any more than the rest of you, however you can prepare. Bringing a caster is preparing. It's like saying there is no way to prepare for a trap filled quest because you don't want to bring a rouge.
And besides, there are alternatives to taking down air eles, perhaps less effective. A prepared group will all have a ranging combat alterntive. You spread out and range them. Of course bringing a fingerer is just so easy.

That is not what I mean by preparing, and I tried to spell it out in a previous post.

Preparation is when YOU, and YOUR character, take some kind of action, bring some kind of item, turn on a skill, stance, or enhancement - to deal with a situation, monster, or puzzle etc.

It is not a valid agument to say, "Well to be prepared - dont be who you are, reroll a new character and bring that one instead, or just bring SOMEONE ELSE to deal with this problem."

Thats not preparation, thats saying "Anyone who is NOT x cannot handle this monster no matter what they do, what skills they have, items, potions, clickies, actions, abilities, there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO, so just BE someone else, or leave".

In D&D a high level character, of ANY class, can take steps, bring an item, set a trap, use tactics, and find a way to deal with something, as everything has a weakness. DDO you have very few tactics to use, a fraction of the items and spells that would be available to a paper character, and skills, saves, and monsters dont work the same way as in paper D&D.

So instead of having mutliple options in handling something, the ONLY response that people seem to have when defending elementals is; be someone else, or bring someone else. That is no way to design a game if you want any degree of balance or fairness.

It is not about "Oh something beat me", but because there is NOTHING you can do to stop them, other than being a caster/acrobat/ranger on a unreachable spot shooting at them. Every other class is completely pooched when fighting them, because you cant melee them (unless they are in a dancing ball, which goes back to 'bring a caster').

Air elementals cheat, and cheat hard, and it makes a LOT of people very angry each and every time they are encountered. And there is no game design reason they HAVE to be that way, as Genies are also air creatures, also have whirlwind form, but only use it sometimes. So the mechanics for the 'as they are in the pnp rules' way to handle them already is in the game...it is just not being used. I for one would like to know why.

Riggs
01-05-2009, 03:00 PM
The reaver is the place where they are the most nuissance and not only because of the shear numbers. Others Air Eles. are Easily banished,charmed,fingered etc etc., However these New and improved Reaver eles. Seem to have developed quite a resistance to standard practice, similar to the way viruses become immune to penacillin. :(

As above, if the only way to handle them is 'bring a caster' thats not really useful to most players.

They are not a pain because the reaver ones are harder to kill. They are a pain because their knockdown mechanic is completely overpowered compared to anything else in the game.

Charm some air elementals in Ritual of Sacrifice. Now sit back and watch as NOTHING in that quest, including earth elementals which are next to impossible to trip can stand up while near them. When one charmed monster in a quest can take out EVERY SINGLE OTHER MONSTER IN THAT QUEST thats broken, and broken in a big way.

If players could summon air elementals instead of earth at level 9, the game would completely break, as nothing but red named monsters would ever be able to stand up again.

Hafeal
01-05-2009, 03:11 PM
I love it when you actually have the chance to hit an elemental and on some extraordinary chance they fail their save and are paralyzed. Then you move in for the kill ... and get knocked down while they are paralyzed!

Awesome.

:eek:

Blazer
01-05-2009, 03:14 PM
The reaver is the place where they are the most nuissance and not only because of the shear numbers. Others Air Eles. are Easily banished,charmed,fingered etc etc., However these New and improved Reaver eles. Seem to have developed quite a resistance to standard practice, similar to the way viruses become immune to penacillin. :(

Actually I find the reaver is where they are the least troublesome simply because you CAN get a defense against them in the form of the charge. The air elementals in the fourth part of SOS are far more frustrating/annoying than the reaver ones.

Turial
01-05-2009, 03:28 PM
....
It is not about "Oh something beat me", but because there is NOTHING you can do to stop them, other than being a caster/acrobat/ranger on a unreachable spot shooting at them. Every other class is completely pooched when fighting them, because you cant melee them (unless they are in a dancing ball, which goes back to 'bring a caster').....

Last I checked everyone could use a ranged weapon of some sort. Carrying a cheap wounding bow or crossbow will do wonders for your preparation for odd critters like air elementals. Will it be as easy as other methods...no but its still preparation for what may be and what you will eventually encounter.

sephiroth1084
01-05-2009, 03:33 PM
Last I checked everyone could use a ranged weapon of some sort. Carrying a cheap wounding bow or crossbow will do wonders for your preparation for odd critters like air elementals. Will it be as easy as other methods...no but its still preparation for what may be and what you will eventually encounter.

Except that you will not kill the air elemental before it reaches you, and after it does, you may not have a chance to stand up again. For example, in Fleshmaker's, I got knocked off of the top area at the final boss, and was tossed around for 25 minutes by the 3 or 4 air elementals on the bottom. I got taken from over 400 HP to -10 only on natural 20s doing around 10 damage a hit. I could not stand long enough to use a Lay on Hands. And there wasn't a **** thing I could do about that. Nothing. And my party couldn't save me because they had to deal with the same up top.

bobbryan2
01-05-2009, 03:37 PM
Last I checked everyone could use a ranged weapon of some sort. Carrying a cheap wounding bow or crossbow will do wonders for your preparation for odd critters like air elementals. Will it be as easy as other methods...no but its still preparation for what may be and what you will eventually encounter.

If by wonders, you mean it's still a terrible way of dealing with things. Especially with those high AC air eles that you can only hit on a 20 because you have an 18 dex.

See how long it takes to kill a named air ele, hitting only on 20s.

It's stupid... using a crossbow is stupid. They shouldn't be impervious to melee.

Tin_Dragon
01-05-2009, 04:01 PM
I love it when you actually have the chance to hit an elemental and on some extraordinary chance they fail their save and are paralyzed. Then you move in for the kill ... and get knocked down while they are paralyzed!

Awesome.

:eek:

That is the Worst most broken aspect of the entire thing for me, the best way I have seen a NON caster in NON Reaver deal, is with Ranged Paralyzers. Thats about it.

Draccus
01-05-2009, 04:06 PM
I posted an informal survey on monsters a few weeks ago which asked people to pick one monster they'd like to add to the game and one they'd like to remove. I didn't tally the results but I'd estimate 80% of the people mentioned air elementals.

That kind of overwhelming response, even in an informal, unscientific poll, indicates a true problem with the monster.

GlassCannon
01-05-2009, 10:54 PM
I didn't take that survey. Put Air Elementals on my #1 To Remove list, right in front of Jariliths(If you get the hint, I really hate Knockdown. Fearful Presence is a bit annoying, but Knockdown is much like Hold Monster, DC150, 1 Second Refresh... if you save, you get to move 1 inch, then get Held again).

As for adding, I'd like to see some Umber Hulks and a Torrasque...

sephiroth1084
01-06-2009, 04:50 AM
I didn't take that survey. Put Air Elementals on my #1 To Remove list, right in front of Jariliths(If you get the hint, I really hate Knockdown. Fearful Presence is a bit annoying, but Knockdown is much like Hold Monster, DC150, 1 Second Refresh... if you save, you get to move 1 inch, then get Held again).

As for adding, I'd like to see some Umber Hulks and a Torrasque...

So you hate knockdown effects, but want confusion? I guess it'd be resistible and would make some fights more interesting.

While this isn't the place for it, I still really want a full-blown dragon encounter. Combine the mechanics for the dragon fights from The Tor and Prey on the Hunter (jumping, wingbeating, extra effects on the breath weapon, a few additional spells, moving) with some serious full-attacking, tail-slapping, varied spellcasting and, rather than crazy HP, give it a bunch of spells up for defense along with a high enough AC that even the top tier will be missing some of the time. Have it move a lot, and give it some attacks that function in other directions, so even if it is aggro'ed to a single character, it will, say, tail slap behind it and a bit to the side, and cast spells around itself. No weird minion or puzzle mechanic, just one badass dragon.

gHzSWB
01-06-2009, 03:06 PM
That is not what I mean by preparing, and I tried to spell it out in a previous post.

Preparation is when YOU, and YOUR character, take some kind of action, bring some kind of item, turn on a skill, stance, or enhancement - to deal with a situation, monster, or puzzle etc.

It is not a valid agument to say, "Well to be prepared - dont be who you are, reroll a new character and bring that one instead, or just bring SOMEONE ELSE to deal with this problem."

Thats not preparation, thats saying "Anyone who is NOT x cannot handle this monster no matter what they do, what skills they have, items, potions, clickies, actions, abilities, there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO, so just BE someone else, or leave".

In D&D a high level character, of ANY class, can take steps, bring an item, set a trap, use tactics, and find a way to deal with something, as everything has a weakness. DDO you have very few tactics to use, a fraction of the items and spells that would be available to a paper character, and skills, saves, and monsters dont work the same way as in paper D&D.

So instead of having mutliple options in handling something, the ONLY response that people seem to have when defending elementals is; be someone else, or bring someone else. That is no way to design a game if you want any degree of balance or fairness.

It is not about "Oh something beat me", but because there is NOTHING you can do to stop them, other than being a caster/acrobat/ranger on a unreachable spot shooting at them. Every other class is completely pooched when fighting them, because you cant melee them (unless they are in a dancing ball, which goes back to 'bring a caster').

Air elementals cheat, and cheat hard, and it makes a LOT of people very angry each and every time they are encountered. And there is no game design reason they HAVE to be that way, as Genies are also air creatures, also have whirlwind form, but only use it sometimes. So the mechanics for the 'as they are in the pnp rules' way to handle them already is in the game...it is just not being used. I for one would like to know why.

Well said, I agree with much of your commentary. However, it is pretty obvious that since about week two of this game the DEVs have been cheating their butts off just to try to create the facsimile of a fair game or otherwise encounter based outcome game. DDO was terribly designed from day one with a total lack of understanding of how quickly and easily players would blow through the game. To make matters worse the same incompetent DEVs who made the game with too little content and with too little challenge for players made loot tables that game away the farm, and then some, early and often making the already thin and weak content thinner and weaker. So from about month 2 until now Turbine has been playing catch up, coding in cheats (beyond the designed default cheats), and otherwise developing new ways to occupy more player time or force continual re rolls - forgetting entirely about real game building. Such is DDO, complaining about it now is really pointless - DDO is a game of gear grind and character building - what happens during an actual encounter is really just superfluous anymore.


rather than crazy HP

Exactly what in DDOs history shows Turbine is capable of creating (i.e. faking) difficulty any way other than crazy HP and crazy saves or even more blatant cheats than that? DDO is not developed, it is fabricated - content isn't balanced it is rigged.

Riggs
01-09-2009, 11:30 AM
Last I checked everyone could use a ranged weapon of some sort. Carrying a cheap wounding bow or crossbow will do wonders for your preparation for odd critters like air elementals. Will it be as easy as other methods...no but its still preparation for what may be and what you will eventually encounter.

As others already posted, I dont consider adding a ranged weapon to a 10-12 dex melee a valid option. Missing 90% of the time, then doing almost no damage unless you get bow strength, will take an hour to kill somethign that will close to melee range in about....1.5 seconds.

If a melee cannot melee a monster - that means the monster is cheating. As was also said already, D&D a player could fight from their back, or cast, but not in DDO, so its a double cheat.

Old D&D a level 20 fighter could take on a gods avatar and win. Any monster in the game of roughly the same level could be beaten if you have good equipment, a good build, and use some tactics. But no - sorry cannot hit an air elemental.

I would like to NOT start with the assumption that developers are being deliberately antagonistic to players and designing something that by any standard can be called griefing.

I would like to make the assumption that, like wolves/hobgoblins being able to auto trip players without actually hittting, which was then eventually changed, that it is an oversight, and they are too busy on new content to get around to air elementals.

But unless there is some kind of official response, given the extreme nature of just how bad air elementals are broken - sooner or later I will be forced to conclude the worst.

I try not to make negative posts anymore, but regarding air elementals I maybe will include a direct quote from another player after running Sos recently, to show just how much most people feel about the situation.

"I would like to find whoever designed air elementals, go to their house, and punch them in the face".

I dont condone violence, and certainly not over a game. I dont condone getting personal over a game.

But the quote is a pretty accurate example of just how mad players get when they run into air elementals. You can be having fun, enjoying the game, maybe you get killed by something but at least its from something that 'fights fairly' (they hit you, you can hit them back etc). Then suddenly air elementals appear, knock you off a giant platform, into the last part of the quest that starts while the rest of the group is way up still fighting, or 2 of them decide to run over you repeatedly and you cannot get up for 10 minutes - and now the entire group is spitting mad because....well running into something that cheats, and is unbeatable in melee, and its attack has no defence is beyond frustrating.

I can understand the desire to try and design a challenge that will make players work harder if some things seem too easy. It is an old problem from monty haul days when players had a 5 page list of magic items and could do just about anything, including kill off Thor in 2 rounds say because a 400 hp 'god' was no challenge.

But the mechanics of air elemenals is the entirely wrong way to go. There is not one single player that has nice things to say about Turbine right after fighting air elementals, and even though people still keep playing the game because they still enjoy the rest of it usually - this one thing generates a massive amount of dissatisfaction with the company and the game. And by massive I mean pretty much universal.

I want to see DDO continue, and grow, and get better. But if players are going to enjoy the game more, air elementals, and the completely overpowered knockdown of them and other creatures has to be changed.

Riggs
01-16-2009, 03:22 AM
What would make a nice Mod 9 addition;

"Air elemental knockdown will only be an 'on hit' effect"

"Air elemental knocdown will now use the higher of str/dex, reflex saves, or balance skill to resist"

"Air elementals will now start as a monster that punches as an attack, then once per encounter, for 10-15 seconds, can turn into a whirlwind and make knockdown attacks".

Any, or all of these would make several large parts of this game a lot more enjoyable.

BlackSteel
01-16-2009, 08:31 AM
Well said, I agree with much of your commentary. However, it is pretty obvious that since about week two of this game the DEVs have been cheating their butts off just to try to create the facsimile of a fair game or otherwise encounter based outcome game. DDO was terribly designed from day one with a total lack of understanding of how quickly and easily players would blow through the game. To make matters worse the same incompetent DEVs who made the game with too little content and with too little challenge for players made loot tables that game away the farm, and then some, early and often making the already thin and weak content thinner and weaker. So from about month 2 until now Turbine has been playing catch up, coding in cheats (beyond the designed default cheats), and otherwise developing new ways to occupy more player time or force continual re rolls - forgetting entirely about real game building. Such is DDO, complaining about it now is really pointless - DDO is a game of gear grind and character building - what happens during an actual encounter is really just superfluous anymore.



Exactly what in DDOs history shows Turbine is capable of creating (i.e. faking) difficulty any way other than crazy HP and crazy saves or even more blatant cheats than that? DDO is not developed, it is fabricated - content isn't balanced it is rigged.

Is there any particular reason you're still playing?

Riggs
02-05-2009, 10:13 AM
Mod 9 is getting closer, any possible word on any possible changes to elementals?

(Oh and wraiths making an attack, then phasing out again after .5 seconds is also quite annoying).

WeaselKing
02-05-2009, 10:37 AM
Similar to the way viruses become immune to penacillin. :(

Viruses have always been unaffected by penicillin.

Emili
02-05-2009, 10:42 AM
The reaver is the place where they are the most nuissance and not only because of the shear numbers. Others Air Eles. are Easily banished,charmed,fingered etc etc., However these New and improved Reaver eles. Seem to have developed quite a resistance to standard practice, similar to the way viruses become immune to penacillin. :(

It's true they were easier in reaver before, but they're actually not that difficult now either when you think about.

1.) players just get a charge
2.) ranging them with wops just rips them up.
3.) all melee can wop or wound them.
4.) caster can FOD them easily when 1 and 3 or 2 are being used since the save is fort.

the cr increase to eles in reaver made it a raid where all group members can actually take some part in now - not class dependent.

I do agree however that the air elemental knock down is ridiculas... when they first came out they did not have this effect as often, my melee would fight them and while occassionally thrown away, did not get knocked down consistantly. A month or so after they introduced them they changed them to do such. Maybe we should be able to hire the reaver to bring to other quests so he can charge us up?

boldarblood
02-05-2009, 10:47 AM
Grab a wounder or a puncturing weapon, couple of melee together make short work of any air ele.

And reaver is still an easy quest, have not failed in a pug setting in a very long time.

Alavatar
02-05-2009, 10:49 AM
Do people not see that the OP is not referring to the Reaver? It is referring to Air Elementals in general vs. melee.

Angelus_dead
02-05-2009, 11:35 AM
It's stupid... using a crossbow is stupid. They shouldn't be impervious to melee.
Many years ago I programmed a video game where melee characters could get a magic buff to attack at medium range. It worked fine as an anti-kiting feature, although that was an action game.

Then a few years ago, D&D added the "Blood Wind" spell, which does exactly that... you wave your sword around, and cuts appear on enemies within throwing range. Attack and damage are all computed with strength bonus like melee. It's a level 1 spell for both cleric and wizard, and since it's a very short duration buff, it would have a really funny effect if added to DDO: there would be a significant new bonus to splashing one level of spellcaster on a fighter or rogue.

Angelus_dead
02-05-2009, 11:37 AM
Any, or all of these would make several large parts of this game a lot more enjoyable.
The other thing that needs to change is to vary the DC, so that not every single air elemental has the same DC 20 knockdown. Only the biggest and elitest elementals should have that much strength.

Bogenbroom
02-05-2009, 12:41 PM
Air elementals cheat, and cheat hard, and it makes a LOT of people very angry each and every time they are encountered. And there is no game design reason they HAVE to be that way, as Genies are also air creatures, also have whirlwind form, but only use it sometimes. So the mechanics for the 'as they are in the pnp rules' way to handle them already is in the game...it is just not being used. I for one would like to know why.

Welcome to the mirror image of what it is like to be a caster in half of the high end content. Red or Purple named? Can't do squat. High end giants? Can waste half your spell points performing some crowd control on *some* of them as they are immune to half your spells.

So there are monsters that melees find nearly impossible and monsters caster find nearly impossible. Are they Borked? Sure. Is it a game breaking? No. It is just a balance point between melees and casters.

bobbryan2
02-05-2009, 02:14 PM
Welcome to the mirror image of what it is like to be a caster in half of the high end content. Red or Purple named? Can't do squat. High end giants? Can waste half your spell points performing some crowd control on *some* of them as they are immune to half your spells.

So there are monsters that melees find nearly impossible and monsters caster find nearly impossible. Are they Borked? Sure. Is it a game breaking? No. It is just a balance point between melees and casters.

If your caster can't find anything to do... you're playing him wrong.

Riggs
02-05-2009, 08:37 PM
Grab a wounder or a puncturing weapon, couple of melee together make short work of any air ele.

And reaver is still an easy quest, have not failed in a pug setting in a very long time.

How exactly do a couple of melee make short work of an air elemental when you cant swing from your back?

If DDO allowed attacks from a prone position like pnp, then the knockdown would not be so pernicious, even if the dc is way too high, and reflex is not used like it should be.

However the high dc, no attacks from prone, and str/dex check vs a skill or reflex save means no one can stand for more than 1-2 seconds vs one.

Treerat
02-05-2009, 09:32 PM
Rogue is a full thief-acrobat, giving a 100% passive immunity to knockdowns. She also has a 36 base tumbling ability, Many-shot, Imp Critical: Range, 32 starting dex, a paralyzing of puncturing (as well as standard +5 wounding). One would assume air elementals would be easy for her to take down right? Keep dreaming. She may not get knocked down, but it is impossible to get a hit in (much less actually do meaningful damage) when elementals are throwing her around so much.

Its no fun for my wizard who has every FoD-boosting trick possible right now. Not only do elementals make the save way too much, they also close to **** fast. Unless the first cast is a kill, you don't get time for a second because now you're on the ground being thrown around with your only prayer that they throw you clear and focus on someone else.

A high-save and high-AC paladin tank? Forget it. Might as well just disconnect and come back in 10 minutes when either the elementals are dead or the group is.

Simple fix: make elemental actually have to hit the player (and none of this "give the mob +50 to hit just because we had a bad day") and put it on a rational timer not this "spammed every 2 seconds" **** we get fed. Simple, effective, and not at all hard to code. Of course it won't go in because Turbine sold out to the EQ/ WoW "cater to the 10% that agree with our "vision" and screw everyone else" model. Who cares if it results in setting yourself up to lose a big chunk of the players to a competitor. All that matters is next quarters profits and the ego of the developers being sated; not like anyone cares that the game may die out in 4 years instead of going on a healthy 6+ to make more overall profits.

Thailand_Dan
02-05-2009, 10:15 PM
Ok, have a feeling this post is going to be unpopular, but here goes. Playing mostly arcanes, I think the OP is saying it is unfair that air eles are ruining the game for melee builds. Not quite understanding that. Throughout DDO there are things that require a melee character...ie, a party full of casters cannot do it alone (STR levers, red name bosses immune to everything a caster can throw at them, Mobs hitting so hard only 400+ hp toons stay up for more than 10 seconds, etc.)

So there is one monster in the game that you have to sit on the sidelines for, and make sure you bring a caster with you. The Shroud, probably the most run quest in the game is limited to 2 (sometimes only 1) caster. And even there we have few jobs: buff the party, hit the crystal, FOD/PK the gnolls, and use debuff spells on Harry. We are casters! We nuke, we burn/freeze/corode/shock. That is what we were made to do. And yet, they are becoming more and more obsolete....changed into bard cheerleaders. (No offense to Bards, just saying the lore says Bard's are there to inspire:)

Try running Reaver with 3 or 4 casters. It is pretty easy, even on elite. Before you needed one death specked sorc, and you were cool.

I think the point of DDO is to encourage a variety of members in a party. Look at how many raged up Barbs run through traps, because hey, "a silly trap aint gonna kill me when I have 2 million hp". And even if it does, the friendly neighborhood cleric can raise me. So there is one monster in the game a plain vanila melee toon cannot kill. Fine. You know how many mobs a caster can't kill alone? A bunch.

In summary, I think people should quit asking the devs to remove or "fix" things in the game, just because they can't zerg through it and actually require a varied group to get past it.


My 2 cp. Flame on.

Riggs
02-08-2009, 04:14 AM
Saying melees need an anti-zerging monster that they are completely unable to touch sounds a lot more like someone has a ****ed off caster and melee hate than being interested in game balance.

I would love to see every single monster in the game that has any kind of knockdown/trip/overrun/charge ability to HAVE to hit first. Several monsters like wolves and hobgoblins finally lost their 'trip even if they miss' ability, even though bugbears still have it. Minotaurs are somewhat annoying, but only charge once in a while.

But air elementals throw you across the room even when you dont get knocked down, and do it without a hit roll, even if they are paralyzed or dancing - you get close to hit it with a weapon - you get tossed.

If a monster doesnt hit you, it should not be able to apply affects to a player. Period. Or else..give players the ability to stun/trip WITHOUT needing to hit, just trip and its a straight save....which of course would be overpowered.

Thailand_Dan
02-08-2009, 04:47 AM
Saying melees need an anti-zerging monster that they are completely unable to touch sounds a lot more like someone has a ****ed off caster and melee hate than being interested in game balance.

I would love to see every single monster in the game that has any kind of knockdown/trip/overrun/charge ability to HAVE to hit first. Several monsters like wolves and hobgoblins finally lost their 'trip even if they miss' ability, even though bugbears still have it. Minotaurs are somewhat annoying, but only charge once in a while.

But air elementals throw you across the room even when you dont get knocked down, and do it without a hit roll, even if they are paralyzed or dancing - you get close to hit it with a weapon - you get tossed.

If a monster doesnt hit you, it should not be able to apply affects to a player. Period. Or else..give players the ability to stun/trip WITHOUT needing to hit, just trip and its a straight save....which of course would be overpowered.

Well, I do get ****ed I cannot get into more Shroud runs on my sorc :) But, I have no hate for melee toons. I actually am rolling one up myself at the moment. Also, I like a good zerg as much as the next guy.

If there are bugs in the AI, which allow the mob to do things it shouldn't (ie attack when paralyzed), fine, they should fix it. My response, was to the OP (and a few others) who basically were saying, take them out of the game because the masses have spoken, we hate them. It was implied (and not in a subtle way by the OP), that every mob should have an exploitable weakness, therefore making every mob, easily killed by a tweaked out melee build. This is what I object to.

As stated before, there are tons of mobs that casters really need a melee toon to beat down. In RR, I can name several. In the end, casters can kill almost everything, but what good are you if you have 0 sp after 2 minutes.

As far as balance, casters (especially arcanes) are far in the minority to melee builds, and this hasn't always been the case. So, is that balanced?

GlassCannon
02-08-2009, 05:40 AM
Even a single air elemental can make for a very unpleasant play experience.

In any quest instance, anywhere in DDO.

There is a reason why the Air room in PoP NEVER gets done.

Venar
02-08-2009, 06:18 AM
OH NOOOOO MY TWF WOP MACHINE CANNOT SOLO AIR ELEMENTALS!!


Jeez.
Let's see...
What can you bring to kill it...

A cleric.
A Sorc.
A wizard.
A wounding ranged weapon.

You can also avoid fighting them with...
A fear clicky
A symbol of Fear clicky
A fearsome armor
A dismissal clicky
A bard (charm/suggestion/fascinate/dance ball)


I am sorry, but if you cant handle an air elemental, it means your team does not have a Cleric, Sorc, Wizard, Ranger, Bard, or anyone with a decent DEX score or UMD. Well, poo.

Drekisen
02-08-2009, 06:40 AM
make sure u carry a caster with insta-kill at all times. Air ele's may be able to knock u all over the place, but thier fort saves......save The Reaver Raid.....are pathetic.

And don't even get me started on the Reaver Raid...hope everyone who complained about it being to easy is happy now....know this, that whenever Turbine does something to nerf the game to answer ur pleas, they DO NOT do it in a conservative manner...it's extreme....so please just take the free ride already and get ur kicks and challenge from something else!!!! lol


/end rant

Kaldaka
02-08-2009, 07:03 AM
Welcome to the mirror image of what it is like to be a caster in half of the high end content. Red or Purple named? Can't do squat. High end giants? Can waste half your spell points performing some crowd control on *some* of them as they are immune to half your spells.

So there are monsters that melees find nearly impossible and monsters caster find nearly impossible. Are they Borked? Sure. Is it a game breaking? No. It is just a balance point between melees and casters.

If your caster can't find anything to do... you're playing him wrong.


Well, I wouldn't say "can't do squat" ... but they have severely limited the casters roll in this game. It went from casters being way too overpowered to being way too underpowered. Welcome to the pendulum swing that is DDO, they never do any changes in moderation.

QFT:


... The Shroud, probably the most run quest in the game is limited to 2 (sometimes only 1) caster. And even there we have few jobs: buff the party, hit the crystal, FOD/PK the gnolls, and use debuff spells on Harry. ...


...know this, that whenever Turbine does something to nerf the game to answer ur pleas, they DO NOT do it in a conservative manner...it's extreme....


Yeah ... :rolleyes:

Premier
02-08-2009, 07:37 AM
OH NOOOOO MY TWF WOP MACHINE CANNOT SOLO AIR ELEMENTALS!!


Jeez.
Let's see...
What can you bring to kill it...

A cleric.
A Sorc.
A wizard.
A wounding ranged weapon.

You can also avoid fighting them with...
A fear clicky
A symbol of Fear clicky
A fearsome armor
A dismissal clicky
A bard (charm/suggestion/fascinate/dance ball)


I am sorry, but if you cant handle an air elemental, it means your team does not have a Cleric, Sorc, Wizard, Ranger, Bard, or anyone with a decent DEX score or UMD. Well, poo.

Amen Brotha!

I concur with the statement regarding "being prepared" too.

Another note, does anyone have the Air Ele's stats? Say, the Reaver ones Str, Con scores? Is it easier to W/P them to death or weakening them so they stand still? Peace!

-Premier

smatt
02-08-2009, 07:49 AM
OH NOOOOO MY TWF WOP MACHINE CANNOT SOLO AIR ELEMENTALS!!


Jeez.
Let's see...
What can you bring to kill it...

A cleric.
A Sorc.
A wizard.
A wounding ranged weapon.

You can also avoid fighting them with...
A fear clicky
A symbol of Fear clicky
A fearsome armor
A dismissal clicky
A bard (charm/suggestion/fascinate/dance ball)


I am sorry, but if you cant handle an air elemental, it means your team does not have a Cleric, Sorc, Wizard, Ranger, Bard, or anyone with a decent DEX score or UMD. Well, poo.


My melee brings his WoP bow...... that and some fast movement = dead air ele's..... Sure they're annoying but..... Not the end all.....

Lorien_the_First_One
02-08-2009, 08:15 AM
In any quest instance, anywhere in DDO.

There is a reason why the Air room in PoP NEVER gets done.

Sure it does, as a caster solo.

Mirta
02-08-2009, 01:29 PM
It's just a pathetic attempt at adding difficulty to an overly easy game. What I don't like is the fact that my characters can make a save and still get knocked down as if they didn't.


I have never seen a developer post about air elementals that I can recall, and would like some clarification please.

Is there a game breaking reason knockdown had to be changed from pnp rules to make it impossible to stand up around them?

As it is now;

- the dc is so high most people cannot stand up for more than 2 seconds no matter what their stats.

- Balance skill, despite the name, doesnt help you stand up if you skill is higher than your str/dex bonus. And getting up after isnt a lot of help if you keep getting knocked down every 2 seconds and starts a fresh 6 second timer. Pnp rules show a reflex save not a dex save, which would let people stand up a lot more if that was the case in DDO. And the save dc in pnp is a LOT lower than it is in DDO.

- pnp Air elementals are like the way Genies are implemented in DDO currently. One form that can 'punch' characters, then for short periods of time, followed by several turns of rest, they can assume whirlwind form and try to knock people down. but the knockdown is an attack, not a area all around that causes auto-knockdown to anyone that is within weapon range. So the implementation of how they work in pnp already exists, and in theory could be changed for air elementals also.

- Air elementals are present in every raid and flagging set of quests except Vons and Titan(well and the Sub, but beholders are another annoying broken monster). Chains and Wiz king(for Queen), Sos, Reaver, Vale and Ritual. So they are pretty much impossible to avoid if you run anything added to the game since 2 years ago.

- overrun/knockdown/charge affects players even when the monster doesnt hit you. Charging Minotaurs, Mariliths that just wander by and knock down an entire party, and air elementals that knock down everyone within range, and zip around all over throwing entire parties down basically at will.

There are many things about DDO that people love, and love playing for long periods of time.

But when most players I know of get to a point where they run into air elementals, they start getting really angry at the game, and at Turbine for adding this monster to the game, and never changing it or taking them out despite numerous complaints.

Dear Turbine, if your intention is to make otherwise happy players really, really angry at you you are succeeding. If your intention is to make a monster so broken from pnp rules that capped characters that can beat up on a pit fiend run screaming from an air elemental sighting you have succeeded.

If your intention is to so break a monster and overpower them that it is seemingly no different than a pnp DM deliberately griefing the players at the table you have succeeded by a wide margin.

If the intention is otherwise, can we as players get some kind of timeline if there is going to be a change? or some kind of feedback as to why they are designed this way? So far I do not recall seeing anything official about them after much hopeful waiting for some kind of change, and something official would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
Riggs

GlassCannon
02-09-2009, 07:53 AM
OH NOOOOO MY MONK, SWORD AND BOARD FIGHTER, AND BARBARIAN THF CANNOT FIGHT AIR ELEMENTALS WHATSOEVER!!


Jeez.
Let's see...
You don't have any options.

You can avoid fighting them with...
A fearsome armor
A bard (charm/suggestion/fascinate/dance ball) - This means that if one was not invited to the group, or is dead/compromised, put on that fearsome armor. if you don't have any, you are screwed.

Start using common sense sometime.

Fixed for accuracy.

GlassCannon
02-09-2009, 07:54 AM
It's just a pathetic attempt at adding difficulty to an already challenging game. What I don't like is the fact that my characters can make a save and still get knocked down as if they didn't.

Yes, this is exceptionally irritating.

Tin_Dragon
02-09-2009, 08:22 AM
Ahem unless is is anti-player adjustments that is. They continually go back and make old content more difficult over time, even content many levels below cap to challenge more cap players running through old content.


Which is the worst idea ever.

brool
02-09-2009, 12:35 PM
I just dont run quests with air ele's in them since they cheat.

IF you cant cheat and someone can cheat you, just dont go that way. :D

*really turbine should fix the air ele's, it is ridiculasly broke. Im not saying put an easy button on them, however atleast make them function the way they are *supposed* to. Thats all Im saying.*

shores11
02-09-2009, 12:41 PM
I have never seen a developer post about air elementals that I can recall, and would like some clarification please.

Is there a game breaking reason knockdown had to be changed from pnp rules to make it impossible to stand up around them?

As it is now;

- the dc is so high most people cannot stand up for more than 2 seconds no matter what their stats.

- Balance skill, despite the name, doesnt help you stand up if you skill is higher than your str/dex bonus. And getting up after isnt a lot of help if you keep getting knocked down every 2 seconds and starts a fresh 6 second timer. Pnp rules show a reflex save not a dex save, which would let people stand up a lot more if that was the case in DDO. And the save dc in pnp is a LOT lower than it is in DDO.

- pnp Air elementals are like the way Genies are implemented in DDO currently. One form that can 'punch' characters, then for short periods of time, followed by several turns of rest, they can assume whirlwind form and try to knock people down. but the knockdown is an attack, not a area all around that causes auto-knockdown to anyone that is within weapon range. So the implementation of how they work in pnp already exists, and in theory could be changed for air elementals also.

- Air elementals are present in every raid and flagging set of quests except Vons and Titan(well and the Sub, but beholders are another annoying broken monster). Chains and Wiz king(for Queen), Sos, Reaver, Vale and Ritual. So they are pretty much impossible to avoid if you run anything added to the game since 2 years ago.

- overrun/knockdown/charge affects players even when the monster doesnt hit you. Charging Minotaurs, Mariliths that just wander by and knock down an entire party, and air elementals that knock down everyone within range, and zip around all over throwing entire parties down basically at will.

There are many things about DDO that people love, and love playing for long periods of time.

But when most players I know of get to a point where they run into air elementals, they start getting really angry at the game, and at Turbine for adding this monster to the game, and never changing it or taking them out despite numerous complaints.

Dear Turbine, if your intention is to make otherwise happy players really, really angry at you you are succeeding. If your intention is to make a monster so broken from pnp rules that capped characters that can beat up on a pit fiend run screaming from an air elemental sighting you have succeeded.

If your intention is to so break a monster and overpower them that it is seemingly no different than a pnp DM deliberately griefing the players at the table you have succeeded by a wide margin.

If the intention is otherwise, can we as players get some kind of timeline if there is going to be a change? or some kind of feedback as to why they are designed this way? So far I do not recall seeing anything official about them after much hopeful waiting for some kind of change, and something official would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
Riggs

I know this is a very far out there and unconventional approach to a Dungeon & Dragons game. Balance out your party with a caster, WOW did I just suggest that a D&D party should have mixed classes in a quest for its successful completion? There are plenty of NPC's out there that a caster can barely touch so we try to crowd control them some for melee types to beat up on.

All casters secretly smile when melee types get blown around and we just cast a PK, finger or destrcution on them. POOF they are gone!

GlassCannon
02-09-2009, 12:43 PM
Djinn AI

Give it to the Air Elementals and DELETE AIR ELEMENTAL AI.

They will need a Bludgeon/Slash Melee Attack. Additionally, due to composition, they would deal about 1/4 the damage of an Earth Elemental.

Additionally, Djinn tend to have a troublesome problem of going Whirlwind a little too often. Once every 30 seconds is a bit much. They need a cooldown like Manyshot(2 minutes).

shores11
02-09-2009, 12:43 PM
I just dont run quests with air ele's in them since they cheat.

IF you cant cheat and someone can cheat you, just dont go that way. :D

*really turbine should fix the air ele's, it is ridiculasly broke. Im not saying put an easy button on them, however atleast make them function the way they are *supposed* to. Thats all Im saying.*

It might be that air elementals are acting exactly the way they want them to, ever consider that. I do not think air elementals are broke, they are just a casters fodder.

GlassCannon
02-09-2009, 12:45 PM
It might be that air elementals are acting exactly the way they want them to, ever consider that. I do not think air elementals are broke, they are just a casters fodder.

Then we should make Melee Fodder too. Something that moves faster than a Hasted Monk 20, and uses melee attacks for 150 damage per hit at GTWF, True Seeing and a to-hit of +16, with an SR over 60 and DR5,000/- vs magic.

That should be 100% fair. Oh, and vs a splashed class whose main class is Wizard, Sorc, or Cleric, they get a to-hit bonus of +60.

Alternative: A critter that targets only casting classes, ignores AC altogether, has True Seeing, Ghosttouch, and a massive Antimagic Field(not cone, Field. A field the size of the Marketplace.). It stops moving when all casting type classes are dead, regardless what is beating on it. It uses mainly Ranged attacks for about 50 damage per hit, and any spells cast near it cause it to go into Spell Drain mode, negating all Scrolls, Potions, Wands, and draining all SP from anyone with SpellPoints before killing them.

bobbryan2
02-09-2009, 01:11 PM
Amen Brotha!

I concur with the statement regarding "being prepared" too.

Another note, does anyone have the Air Ele's stats? Say, the Reaver ones Str, Con scores? Is it easier to W/P them to death or weakening them so they stand still? Peace!

-Premier

Before you go around saying "Amen!" or "Preach it!"... you should learn how the mechanics work.

Having unmeleeable creatures is bad design. No ifs ands or buts. I don't remember any un-castable creatures... or even un-ranged creatures.

My sorc can pretty much solo anything... a few creatures a bit harder than others... but it's all possible. It's just not possible to melee down air elementals without an enormous amount of luck and bugged out AI.

brool
02-09-2009, 01:40 PM
It might be that air elementals are acting exactly the way they want them to, ever consider that. I do not think air elementals are broke, they are just a casters fodder.



If you were to compare the ddo air elemental to the pnp air elemental you would have a different point of view. Yes the ele's are probably functioning exactly the way blowbine wants them to... However, thats not how they *were* designed in the monster manuel.

Gratned there is little in ddo that works the way its supposed to according to the phb.

I guess we should just make earth ele's immune to every caster spell and call it melee fodder then. :)

Mirta
02-09-2009, 01:54 PM
Then we should make Melee Fodder too. Something that moves faster than a Hasted Monk 20, and uses melee attacks for 150 damage per hit at GTWF, True Seeing and a to-hit of +16, with an SR over 60 and DR5,000/- vs magic.

That should be 100% fair. Oh, and vs a splashed class whose main class is Wizard, Sorc, or Cleric, they get a to-hit bonus of +60.

Alternative: A critter that targets only casting classes, ignores AC altogether, has True Seeing, Ghosttouch, and a massive Antimagic Field(not cone, Field. A field the size of the Marketplace.). It stops moving when all casting type classes are dead, regardless what is beating on it. It uses mainly Ranged attacks for about 50 damage per hit, and any spells cast near it cause it to go into Spell Drain mode, negating all Scrolls, Potions, Wands, and draining all SP from anyone with SpellPoints before killing them.


Whoops! It seems we already have those! They're called "Red Named" and "Purple Named" monsters. We've recently received more of these with mods 6-8. With the inexplicable immunity to fire many monsters have, along with red named devils and orthons with immunity to fire we really don't need more anti-caster monsters.

brool
02-09-2009, 02:00 PM
but you still are still viable as a caster against red named. Even with immunity to fire.. your magic missle is probably all red number dmg. You're debuffs land just fine against red or purple named mobs.

however against the air ele, melee's might as well just hit the recall button. ;)

QuintonReece
02-09-2009, 02:01 PM
Ok, aside from the sarcasm, dev bashing, and turbine bashing......

I agree that the air elemental is over powered and something needs to be done to fix it.

Devs could you please comment with your thoughts, whether you agree or disagree and whether you are considering any changes?

mediocresurgeon
02-09-2009, 02:08 PM
I suspect air elementals will be fixed when Turbine releases druids, who have the ability to turn into an air elemental at level 15. Let them keep the air elementals the way they are. When I roll up my druid, I want some revenge!

Also, my grief detectors indicate that people are unhappy with the Reaver Raid. The Reaver Raid has not gotten much harder, even though the air elementals managed to get a fortitude save. Why? Casters have infinite mana in that raid. Spam Dancing Sphere, enervate, finger of death. Remember that air elementals, like most creatures, are subject to damage from Wall of Fire and Acid Fog. As I'm sure most players are aware, high saves only get you so far.

Zuldar
02-09-2009, 02:31 PM
While air elementals are annoying, they're not as bad as they could be. If the air elementals were made strictly by raw then it would be able to hold you aloft for a good minute or two, dealing damage every round. A big enough elemental would be able to grab a full party, possibly causing a wipe right there.

Guess what I'm trying to say is it's the lesser of the two evils.

Emili
02-09-2009, 02:35 PM
I suspect air elementals will be fixed when Turbine releases druids, who have the ability to turn into an air elemental at level 15. Let them keep the air elementals the way they are. When I roll up my druid, I want some revenge!

Also, my grief detectors indicate that people are unhappy with the Reaver Raid. The Reaver Raid has not gotten much harder, even though the air elementals managed to get a fortitude save. Why? Casters have infinite mana in that raid. Spam Dancing Sphere, enervate, finger of death. Remember that air elementals, like most creatures, are subject to damage from Wall of Fire and Acid Fog. As I'm sure most players are aware, high saves only get you so far.


Reaver raid is the only place the elementals are balanced for the quest given that melee and others have the means to twart the knock-down.... leaving all classes a possible function in the encounter.

Air elementals outside the reaver raid are the problem for melee... results outside is to avoid them and deal damage(range/cast) from a distance. What is ridiculas is a casting class is totally capable of seeing them from afar and casting an very easy instant-kill - thus no great feat, nothing special, no glory, no risk, nor challenge - thus the mob may as well not even exist when a caster is around... A ranged class takes at least a little risk as the creature at least acknoledges a foreign presence before it is wop'd to death or banished. While, a melee class has a heck of a time dealing with them... thus I have equal respec if someone told me they melee'd off 6-10 air elementals (outside of reaver raid) as if they would take on a raid boss alone :p

Thailand_Dan
02-10-2009, 12:43 AM
So why don't they create mobs that are immune to all spells? Well, already have tons of those. Maybe on a wizzy, you can swap out spells, but for a sorc, you are kind of stuck with your build. Fire/Cold specked, sorry nothing to do here, move on.

You can use enervation, waves of exhaustion, or magic missle...ok, so I can either debuff, and have someone else kill them for me, or use a 1st level spell on them. Whoo-hoo!!! Who needs level 7/8/9 spells anyway?

List of mobs your typical fire/cold sorc has problems with:

- All Red named
- All Purple named
- Clay golems
- Iron Golems
- Beholders (unless a melee can distract them first)
- Anything Blackbone

And these are just a few of the ones that have been in game forever. The most recent mobs have gone even further down this path, ie Devils, Orthons, mobs with tons of hp, ice-giants, etc. So, it helps to have a balanced party.

Fix the broken AI, ie does not stop attacking while paralyzed, etc. But don't complain they are just too hard for a melee to handle. Not everything should fall at the mighty feet of w/p. They should not be removed from game.

Venar
02-10-2009, 01:46 AM
Start using common sense sometime.

Fixed for accuracy.

Do not change my quote. I meant what i said. You can comment on it, and disagree. But do not change my words and then say you "fixed" it. I do not need you to state my opinion. Certainly not you.

Apparently some people cannot accept the fact that only half the classes in the game can easily remove a certain monster. Me, i don't mind, it's a group game after all.
You can't melee a Cube either, but yet no one cries.

bobbryan2
02-10-2009, 01:53 AM
So why don't they create mobs that are immune to all spells? Well, already have tons of those. Maybe on a wizzy, you can swap out spells, but for a sorc, you are kind of stuck with your build. Fire/Cold specked, sorry nothing to do here, move on.

You can use enervation, waves of exhaustion, or magic missle...ok, so I can either debuff, and have someone else kill them for me, or use a 1st level spell on them. Whoo-hoo!!! Who needs level 7/8/9 spells anyway?

List of mobs your typical fire/cold sorc has problems with:

- All Red named
- All Purple named
- Clay golems
- Iron Golems
- Beholders (unless a melee can distract them first)
- Anything Blackbone

And these are just a few of the ones that have been in game forever. The most recent mobs have gone even further down this path, ie Devils, Orthons, mobs with tons of hp, ice-giants, etc. So, it helps to have a balanced party.

Fix the broken AI, ie does not stop attacking while paralyzed, etc. But don't complain they are just too hard for a melee to handle. Not everything should fall at the mighty feet of w/p. They should not be removed from game.

My caster has problems with exactly none of those.

My melee still has problems with air eles.

Balanced party nothing... casters can still solo most every meaningful quest

bobbryan2
02-10-2009, 01:54 AM
Do not change my quote. I meant what i said. You can comment on it, and disagree. But do not change my words and then say you "fixed" it. I do not need you to state my opinion. Certainly not you.

Apparently some people cannot accept the fact that only half the classes in the game can easily remove a certain monster. Me, i don't mind, it's a group game after all.
You can't melee a Cube either, but yet no one cries.

You can melee cubes....

Venar
02-10-2009, 06:32 AM
My caster has problems with exactly none of those

Take the room with the 4 named huge Iron Golems in the Twilight Forge.
I am curious about what your caster did.
Oh, what? What did you say? Disentegrate for 500 dmg?
No man, i am talking about what you did when you ran it at an appropriate level, which is lvl 10, before you get disentegrate.
Same for the Wiz-King, the Hound, or anything with a mantle. Disentegrate? Not all sorcs have disentegrate. It's just one spell out of 25.
If disentegrate as the only working spell is ok for a caster, then Fearsome + wounding Throwing is ok for a melee. Both are limited but existing options.

ToKu
02-10-2009, 07:05 AM
I pretty much agree that no class should be able to do it all. Last I checked DDO was a MULTIPLAYER game, are you telling me that you feel there should be content that you dont need a particular class for? If that were the case how would said class even get to experience said content?

Now if air eles were magic immune as well, we'd have a problem. However this sounds like : traps are to rogues like air eles are to arcanes.

Arcanes are a minority in alot of groups already (you only really need 1, 2 is pushing it, you only find 3+ in specific situations), 1 healer and a bunch of melees. Yeah sounds horrible that there is something those melees need help on. :P

Riggs
02-10-2009, 10:31 AM
Claiming that because one monster is unbalanced for one type of class, not because of its nature - but because the rules were broken in making it, and using as an argument that another type of monster(s) are broken towards another type of class is bad logic.

The stupidly high hit points on many monsters now - especially Reaver refusge monsters is a horrible way for the game to be going, and goes way overboard, and yes makes casters typing to damage things a total waste of time. Yay I can kill ONE monster in a quest with my entire mana bar! why exactly do monsters have 3000-5000 hit points again in a game where they are supposed to be 12+ hit dice? Are they using d500s for hit points?

There are other threads about monster hit points, and it also needs to be rebalanced. Two wrongs dont justify keeping a bad system. Wops are also unbalanced after hit points went up because on many monsters dps is a total waste of time. That is also wrong. Same with more and more becoming immune to a raft of spells and effects (like fire elementals and giants in Sos), immunities AND 5000 hit points? "Hey I have a haste clickie, lets just get another melee rather than a caster, maybe a bard - they cant facinate or cast on anything, but hey they can add to my damage".

About melees...
A wop bow is only useful if you have ranger levels anyway, as the wounding damage wont go through on its own usually(I know smatt has a ranger level), and since a wop thrower is pretty much impossible to find for most people, sure that leaves the option to find a fearsome item and a wounding thrower, or even a damage thrower...if you dont mind spending 5 minutes killing a single monster. And if your not on any timed contraints - which you are in the Reaver raid and Sos.

And it still doesnt change the fact that the mechanic is broken. There is no monster anything like DDO air elementals in the pnp rules that throw someone 20 feet away without any kind of attack roll all the time every time you get within melee range.

Monster hit points also needs to be fixed, but thats another thread - and there are a ton of them. Are casters getting the shaft in several ways? Sure, also another thread. People complaining about 'well melees should need casters' seem to convieniently forget not long ago when people kept coming to the boards and bragging about how their sorcs could solo the entire game, raids and all - hey guess what? Stuffs gets changed to limit that kind of play (exploiting monster AI because it stands in firewalls like a stupid rock is also not a balanced way to make monsters).

There should ALWAYS be some kind of spell option for a monster, and some kind of MELEE option. Air elementals do not have a melee option - even if one is stuck in a dancing ball getting into weapon range causes you to get thrown back - reducing your dps to about....0.

No monster, no quest should require a certain class to complete. D&D is about options, not cookie cutter quests that require a certain makeup or you cant do it.

StarKiller
02-10-2009, 06:25 PM
There is no monster anything like DDO air elementals in the pnp rules that throw someone 20 feet away without any kind of attack roll all the time every time you get within melee range.

.

Wrong. According to the MM, if you come into contact with an Air Elemental's whirlwind you automatically have to make 2 saves...1 to avoid being thrown and 1 to avoid damage. There is no attack roll by the elemental at all. I'm not saying that the air elemental in DDO isn't broken, it is. But the fact that there is no attack roll is correct according to pnp rules.

Thailand_Dan
02-10-2009, 08:31 PM
My caster has problems with exactly none of those.



Alright, I guess you are the uber-doober of DDO. Can solo red/purple nameds. I stand corrected. You have no problems with these, so I guess noone should bring it up.

bobbryan2
02-10-2009, 08:46 PM
Alright, I guess you are the uber-doober of DDO. Can solo red/purple nameds. I stand corrected. You have no problems with these, so I guess noone should bring it up.

I'm just saying... there are very few things my caster has a lot of trouble soloing.

There's a few red named orthons in the vale that aren't exactly easy pickins... especially that one in Ritual Sacrifice. But between heal scrolls, DQ torc and stoneskin... I can stand there taking a beating to get enough SP to polar ray him down.

I can do the same thing with disintigrate and iron golems. Golems tend to have atrocious fort saves, fail disintigrate all over the place...

Any sorc could really... with the right amount of gear and/or skill.

You don't have to get all hurt and saying that I'm uber-doober... because I know plenty of sorcs that are better at soloing than me. I'm just saying your argument isn't that good because good Sorcs actually DONT have problems with them.

bobbryan2
02-10-2009, 08:51 PM
Take the room with the 4 named huge Iron Golems in the Twilight Forge.
I am curious about what your caster did.
Oh, what? What did you say? Disentegrate for 500 dmg?
No man, i am talking about what you did when you ran it at an appropriate level, which is lvl 10, before you get disentegrate.
Same for the Wiz-King, the Hound, or anything with a mantle. Disentegrate? Not all sorcs have disentegrate. It's just one spell out of 25.
If disentegrate as the only working spell is ok for a caster, then Fearsome + wounding Throwing is ok for a melee. Both are limited but existing options.

Let's take that room, shall we?

My caster normally takes down 2 of those alone even in a party full of other people. You can throw a jump on, and jump to the top. You're completely safe from any other attack, and could simply throw a dwarven thrower down at the golems, and take them out that way. (since disintigrate is apparantly off the table).

But the truth of the matter is that any sorc that wants to be able to kill golems uses disintigrate. It's the anti-golem spell in DDO. Wiz King is susceptible to any non-ice spell over 4th. The Hound is a raid boss... I don't right know what I would do as I've never been in a situation to solo him in the first place. It'd be pretty tough for a sorc to keep those 3 dogs alive on heal scrolls.

ahpook
02-11-2009, 02:05 PM
Take the room with the 4 named huge Iron Golems in the Twilight Forge.
I am curious about what your caster did.
Oh, what? What did you say? Disentegrate for 500 dmg?
No man, i am talking about what you did when you ran it at an appropriate level, which is lvl 10, before you get disentegrate.
Same for the Wiz-King, the Hound, or anything with a mantle. Disentegrate? Not all sorcs have disentegrate. It's just one spell out of 25.
If disentegrate as the only working spell is ok for a caster, then Fearsome + wounding Throwing is ok for a melee. Both are limited but existing options.

The caster could also cast Tenser's Transformation and melee with GCB or smiting weapon. They might not succeed but they could at least try.

But this is missing the point. With the ele's you can get thrown down on the ground and not get another action for minutes as they knock you down repeatedly before you get up. If there are two of them this is almost guaranteed. And they can do this to multiple opponents at the same time. You have no chance to even TRY to succeed. Even casters can be hit with this if the ele's get too close.

Riggs
02-11-2009, 08:16 PM
Wrong. According to the MM, if you come into contact with an Air Elemental's whirlwind you automatically have to make 2 saves...1 to avoid being thrown and 1 to avoid damage. There is no attack roll by the elemental at all. I'm not saying that the air elemental in DDO isn't broken, it is. But the fact that there is no attack roll is correct according to pnp rules.

A) I was looking up the SRD20 Air elemental stats before, and the whirldwind is a temporary 'stance' first off, and only throws you up if you enter the whirlwind, eitehr by attack or moving - not merely being within 5 feet of it.

B) DDO does not have any reflex rolls to resist whirlwind, just str/dex checks to stay standing. But when close, there is no roll, no attack, no save - just automatic knockback when within range.

As someone said - I also predict air elementals will be fixed the day Druids get to summon them or turn into one - because otherwise Druids will be able to kill any non-red named monster in the game without any challenge whatsoever.