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Artistik
01-03-2009, 09:46 AM
You can muck about on the pre-reqs and the numbers if you like, we're going for general theme.


Certain pre-reqs are common I've noticed... such as


Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept I (Based on Star Metal Adept)
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 6, Sorceror Concentration II, Elemental Manipulation II, Energy Manipulation II, and any one of: Self-Sufficient, or Improved Mental Toughness.
Benefit: You are devoted to becoming one with the Eternal Sapphire. Through strange rituals known only to you and a select few others you have begun your transformation. You gain damage reduction 3/Adamantine and Fortification 25%. In addition you recieve 50% healing from Repair Spells. You resist death effects, poison and disease exceptionally well, gaining a +1 bonus to saves against spells and effects of this nature. Your form is your own, and is very difficult to alter. You gain +2 to all saves versus the Transmutation school of spells.

Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 12, Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept I, Sorceror Concentration III, Elemental Manipulation III, Energy Manipulation III, Toughness
Benefit: You are devoted to becoming one with the Eternal Sapphire. Through strange rituals known only to you and a select few others you continue your transformation. You gain damage reduction 5/Adamantine and Fortification 75%. In addition you recieve 75% healing from Repair Spells. You resist death effects, poison and disease exceptionally well, gaining a +2 bonus to saves against spells and effects of this nature. Further, your transformation has given you insight into the very essence of transmutation. Your Transmutation spells gain +1 to their DC and +2 to Caster level for the purposes of damage and overcoming spell resistance. You gain an additional +2 to all saves versus the Transmutation school of spells, for a total of +4.


Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept II: Crystaline Rigor
Benefit: For a brief moment you channel the pure focused essence of the Eternal Sapphire, dramatically increasing your survivability. You gain +6 Constitition, a +10 bonus to concentration, 15/Adamantine Damage Reduction, and resistance 40 to all energy types except force and sonic. The benefits of Crystaline Rigor last one minute. Crystaline Rigor is usable once per rest. While under the influence of the Eternal Sapphire you cannot be healed by any form of mortal magic.


Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept III
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 18, Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept II, Sorceror Concentration IV, Elemental Manipulation IV, Energy Manipulation IV
Benefit: You are devoted to becoming one with the Eternal Sapphire. Through strange rituals known only to you and a select few others you perfect your transformation. You gain damage reduction 10/Adamantine and Fortification 100%. In addition you recieve 100% healing from Repair Spells. You resist death effects, poison and disease exceptionally well, gaining a +3 bonus to saves against spells and effects of this nature. Further, your transformation has given you insight into the very essence of transmutation. Your Transmutation spells gain an additional +1 to their DC and +2 to Caster level for the purposes of damage and overcoming spell resistance. Your form is your own, and is very difficult to alter. You gain an additional +2 to all saves versus the Transmutation school of spells, for a total of +6.



Sorceror Fatespinner I (Based on... Fatespinner)
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 6, Sorceror Bluff II, Force Manipulation II.
Benefit: You are one of the select few who are able to peer into the tapestry of fortune and begin to unravel its mystery. Able to predict, and to some degree manipulate fate, you gain the benefits of the feat "Evasion". In addition, you have a +4 bonus to reflex saves.

Sorceror Fatespinner II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 12, Sorceror Fatespinner I, Sorceror Bluff III, Force Manipulation III.
Benefit: You are one of the select few who are able to peer into the tapestry of fortune and begin to unravel its mystery, and weave the threads as you see fit. You gain "Spin". Using Spin you are able to alter destiny through your magic. You gain a pool of five spin points, each spin point allows you access to one of three effects: You gain the ability to increase the difficulty class of your spells by 2, the caster level of your spells by 4, or reduce the cost of your spells by 10%. Each of these three effects lasts twenty seconds, and consumes one spin point. In addition you are able to manipulate the fates of those around you. Nearby players enjoy a +1 bonus to saves and weapon damage, and a +2 bonus to armor class at all times.

Sorceror Fatespinner II: Weave Destiny I
Benefit: By taxing your reserves to the fullest extent you are able to actively reshape the destiny of those around you. You grant all nearby allies a +4 bonus to weapon damage, a +2 bonus to caster level, a +5 bonus to Armor Class, and a +5 bonus to saves. This effect lasts for thirty seconds and is usable once per rest. While active you cannot attack or cast spells of any kind. You are fatigued afterwards for one minute.


Sorceror Fatespinner III
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 18, Sorceror Fatespinner II, Sorceror Bluff IV, Force Manipulation IV
Benefit: You are one of the select few who are able to peer into the tapestry of fortune and you now call that tapestry your own. You are further able to alter destiny through your magic. Using Spin you are now able to increase the difficulty class of your spells by 4, the caster level of your spells by 6, or reduce the cost of your spells by 20%. Each of these three effects lasts twenty seconds, and consumes a point of spin. In addition you are able to manipulate the fates of those around you. Nearby players enjoy a +3 bonus to saves and weapon damage, and a +4 bonus to armor class.

Sorceror Fatespinner III: Weave Destiny II
Benefit: By taxing your reserves to the extreme you are able to warp destiny. You grant all nearby allies a +1 bonus to critical threat range, a +1 bonus to critical threat multiplier, a +3 bonus to spells DCs, and a +4 bonus to caster level. Further you grant allies +7 bonus to Armor Class, and a +7 bonus to saves. This effect lasts for thirty seconds and is usable once per rest. While active you cannot attack or cast spells of any kind. You are exhausted afterwards for one minute.



Sorceror Spirit Breaker I (Based on... Mind Bender)
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 6, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Spell Focus: Necromancy, Sorceror Charisma I
Benefit: You are the Spirit Breaker, through sheer force of personality you command the essence of the living and the dead alike. You gain +1 to the Difficulty Class of your Enchantment and Necromancy Spells. Further, your Enchantment Spells cost 10% less mana, and your Necromancy spells do 20% more damage. (Damage for our purposes includes ability damage and level drain)

Sorceror Spirit Breaker I: Kiss of Shadows
Benefit: Your ability to manipulate life force has granted you the Kiss of Shadows. Three times per day you may either heal or harm with your Kiss of Shadows. Mechnically almost identical to the paladin ability Lay on Hands, Kiss of Shadows has a two aspects. This is a necromancy effect that enjoys the percentile benefits of Spirit Breaker I, II, and III. This ability has no save and bypasses Spell Resistance.

Sorceror Spirit Breaker I: Kiss of Light
Benefit: Any living creature targeted by your Kiss of Light is healed by an amount equal to your caster level times your charisma modifier.

Sorceror Spirit Breaker I: Kiss of Night
Benefit: Any living creature targeted by your Kiss of Night is damaged by an amount equal to your caster level times your charisma modifier.


Sorceror Spirit Breaker II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 12, Spirit Breaker I, Skill Focus: Use Magic Device, Sorceror Charisma, II, Sorceror Subtle Spellcasting II
Benefit: You are the Spirit Breaker, and your thirst for power only grows. You gain an additional +1 to the Difficulty Class of your Enchantment and Necromancy Spells. Further, your Enchantment Spells cost 15% less mana, and your Necromancy spells do 30% more damage, and you gain an additional +2 increase to caster level when casting Enchantment or Necromancy Spells. However, you may now project your force of will against magical objects, granting a +2 bonus to the Use Magic Device skill.

Sorceror Spirit Breaker II: Shatter Spirit
Benefit: By combining your mastery of enchantment and necromancy, you are able to lay a soulsearing curse that is effective on the living and the dead alike. If the target fails it's will save (10+Sorceror Level+Charisma Modifier) it becomes enthralled by the Spirit Breaker and fights indefinitely in their defense. Shatter Spirit is usable at will, but may only be targeted to one creature at any given time. This ability bypasses Spell Resistance.

Sorceror Spirit Breajer II: Extinguish
Benefit: Any creature, living or dead, who is enthralled by your Shatter Spirit ability can be immediately slain at your command. Extinguish allows a fortitude save (10+Sorceror Level+Charisma Modifier). If the creature fails its save it dies immediately. If it succeeds it immediately breaks from Shatter Spirit and attacks the Spirit Breaker to the exclusion of all others. This ability bypasses Spell Resistance.

Sorceror Spirit Breaker II: Summon
Benefit: This ability immediately summons the Thrall to your side.

Sorceror Spirit Breaker III
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 18, Sorceror Spirit Breaker II, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy, Sorceror Charisma III, Sorceror Subtle Spellcasting IV,
Benefit: You are the Spirit Breaker, and your thirst for power is all consuming. You gain an additional +1 to the Difficulty Class of your Enchantment and Necromancy Spells for a total of +3. Further, your Enchantment Spells cost 20% less mana, your Necromancy spells do 40% more damage. You gain an additional +2 increase to caster level when casting Enchantment or Necromancy Spells, for a total of +4. Finally, you are granted an additional +2 bonus to the Use Magic Device skill, for a total of +4.

Aspenor
01-03-2009, 09:50 AM
I assume by "alternates" you mean "craploads of development time?"

Not that I don't like them, just don't expect to see something like this soon.

Lithic
01-03-2009, 09:58 AM
You can muck about on the pre-reqs and the numbers if you like, we're going for general theme. Some of you are too ridiculously stupid and short sighted to read this part, but I'm putting it here anyway. If you don't like the thematic aspects, say so and explain why. If your trouble is with numbers, can it, those can always be adjusted for balance later. Naturally some troll (who will accuse me of being a troll) will do everything they can to attack the numbers while ignoring anything thematic. Sometimes you wish you could reach through the internet and slap the ever living....


Starting your post with this type of comment is going to make it hard for reasonable people to care what you wrote. Way to go insulting your audience before even giving them a chance to read what you have to say.

Due to your starting paragraph I only skimmed briefly, but a couple things did jump out.
One basically makes you a WF without the healing penalty, one gives you evasion and huge party buffs, not to mention a giangantic +3 to DCs, and the third one gives you about 15 feats worth of bonuses (If you could even take those feats multiple times to stack em).

In a word: Overpowered.
In two words: WAY overpowered.
In 3 words: Never gonna happen.
In 4 words: What were you thinking?

Aspenor
01-03-2009, 10:01 AM
In a word: Overpowered.
In two words: WAY overpowered.
In 3 words: Never gonna happen.
In 4 words: What were you thinking?
I didn't really bother to read them either, I read the themes and that was about it.

EDIT- YIKES i read ONE ENTRY (first level Spirit Breaker) and it's broken beyond belief. these don't need a few numbers adjusted, they need to be nuked from orbit.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-03-2009, 10:01 AM
You can muck about on the pre-reqs and the numbers if you like, we're going for general theme. Some of you are too ridiculously stupid and short sighted to read this part, but I'm putting it here anyway. If you don't like the thematic aspects, say so and explain why. If your trouble is with numbers, can it, those can always be adjusted for balance later. Naturally some troll (who will accuse me of being a troll) will do everything they can to attack the numbers while ignoring anything thematic. Sometimes you wish you could reach through the internet and slap the ever living...


Well that's where I stopped reading. You should reread that paragraph and then take your own advice and slap yourself silly. If that is your attitude you shouldn't expect any player or dev to take the time to seriously consider anything else you say.

Borror0
01-03-2009, 10:06 AM
Erg, where should I start? Oh, I know. No, just no.

Mr._Dna
01-03-2009, 10:10 AM
Sure, bad form on the first paragraph, and yeah, they are way overpowered, BUT, for my sorcerer, I would MUCH rather see something of this style than the planned "elemental master" PrE's. At least these have some panache and aren't a generic "X percentage increase to fire damage." I mean, every other class is at least getting some flavor in their PrE's. Sorcerers are getting left out.

Lithic
01-03-2009, 10:12 AM
Sure, bad form on the first paragraph, and yeah, they are way overpowered, BUT, for my sorcerer, I would MUCH rather see something of this style than the planned "elemental master" PrE's. At least these have some panache and aren't a generic "X percentage increase to fire damage." I mean, every other class is at least getting some flavor in their PrE's. Sorcerers are getting left out.

Posts like this are rather annoying as well. You assume they are going to suck. You assume it will be +10% fire damage per tier and nothing else. How bout you wait and see what the devs have come up with? All we know right now are the NAMES of the PrE's.

Artistik
01-03-2009, 10:14 AM
Well that's where I stopped reading. You should reread that paragraph and then take your own advice and slap yourself silly. If that is your attitude you shouldn't expect any player or dev to take the time to seriously consider anything else you say.


They didn't anyway? Even after I told them: hey, focus on the theme aspect, and not on the numbers.

But they didn't.

They immediately started on the shrill cries of IT'S OVERPOWERED. While completely missing the point.

So far only one response hasn't been filled with shrieking.

If you want to know why turbine is screwing up the game... take a good hard look in the mirror. =)

Mr._Dna
01-03-2009, 10:17 AM
Posts like this are rather annoying as well. You assume they are going to suck. You assume it will be +10% fire damage per tier and nothing else. How bout you wait and see what the devs have come up with? All we know right now are the NAMES of the PrE's.

Ok, we'll see...But for a sorc that's based more on CC and spell pen, insta-kills, etc. You have to admit it doesn't look too promising, yes?

Turial
01-03-2009, 10:20 AM
Themes are interesting but these don't really give sorcs anything to make them better at things other then damage without being off kilter.

Gol
01-03-2009, 10:25 AM
You can muck about on the pre-reqs and the numbers if you like, we're going for general theme. Some of you are too ridiculously stupid and short sighted to read this part, but I'm putting it here anyway. If you don't like the thematic aspects, say so and explain why. If your trouble is with numbers, can it, those can always be adjusted for balance later. Naturally some troll (who will accuse me of being a troll) will do everything they can to attack the numbers while ignoring anything thematic. Sometimes you wish you could reach through the internet and slap the ever living....
At first, I stopped there and started reading replies. I then saw the overpowered comment and went back and read the actual enhancements.

Aside from the fact that any benefit numbers need to be cut at least in half, if not quartered, I felt the flavor of whatever you were doing got lost in the overabundance of benefits. I couldn't really tell what the flavor was. Giving Evasion, +7 Saves, +7 AC, +1 Crit Mult, +something damage, +3 DC, +4 Spell pen all in the same PrE chain? I just don't get the purpose here. Yes, the fluff text (theme) sorta makes sense, I have the book that PrC was printed in. However, the benefits from the book simply don't match what you want to give out. It feels like "here's theme" was pimp-slapped by "here's how to break PrEs". There's simply no cohesion.

Lithic
01-03-2009, 10:25 AM
Ok, we'll see...But for a sorc that's based more on CC and spell pen, insta-kills, etc. You have to admit it doesn't look too promising, yes?

Well it would depend. You have to consider that none of the caster or cleric PrE's have been realeased yet, so for all we know the devs are shying away from any DC increase because that would likely mean all other options were inferior. Just like anyone without a maxed starting casting stat is gimped (Cept maybe for battleclerics/casters who don't rely on spells with saves), you wouldnt want to be without the easily aquired enhancement that gives you an edge to your DC. I could see a sorc PrE with a bonus to spell penetration (though not likely +4 as the OP suggested), maybe air as thats usually assosiated with the mind. Fire would likely be mostly damage oriented, earth might have a large concentration bonus, and water could give bonuses to metamagics similar to the metamagic enhancements. This could all be in addition to a 10/20/30% bonus to damage from the appropriate spells. It's just too early to tell.

One thing's for sure, the OP ain't gonna happen hehe.

Big_Russ
01-03-2009, 10:28 AM
Overpowered, but I like the themes. It's a starting point.


Posts like this are rather annoying as well. You assume they are going to suck. You assume it will be +10% fire damage per tier and nothing else. How bout you wait and see what the devs have come up with? All we know right now are the NAMES of the PrE's.

I don't think anybody is crying because the sorc PrE's will suck. I believe people are simply asking for a little more variety. Unfortunately, that needs to wait for mod 10 at least. I don't want them delaying 9 for this.

As far as only knowing the NAMES of the PrE for the sorcs, I know that I have see a thread listing specs for elemental savant somewhere on the site.

EDIT: Found it. It was not an official listing.

Borror0
01-03-2009, 10:29 AM
They immediately started on the shrill cries of IT'S OVERPOWERED. While completely missing the point.
It's hard to enjoy the theme when it's so imbalanced. A balanced idea looks much better.

Lithic
01-03-2009, 10:32 AM
As far as only knowing the NAMES of the PrE for the sorcs, I know that I have see a thread listing specs for elemental savant somewhere on the site.

If its the post I've seen, that was Angelus_Dead posting what he knew from the printed books. I'll try to find it, but I vaguely remember him saying they got things like immunity to their own element and a way to get rid of an enemy's immunity to theirs. His example was a fire-immune fire savant shrugging off aaretrikos's DBF's, while Big Red was standing in a firewall he THOUGHT he was immune to hehe.

Ah here we go:

To say that suggests you are overestimating the importance of those features. Have you actually played a mage of level 15-16? Have you played both wiz and sorc?



The elemental savant classes could very well include defensive features such as energy immunity or extreme resistance, fortification, and even paralysis immunity. If they're implemented as-per the D&D book they would be wickedly overpowered, especially in raids. Imagine a Fire Savant standing there showing Immune to Arraetriko's DBFs while the boss roasts in a Wall of Fire that he thought he was immune to.

Aspenor
01-03-2009, 10:33 AM
You can muck about on the pre-reqs and the numbers if you like, we're going for general theme. Some of you are too ridiculously stupid and short sighted to read this part, but I'm putting it here anyway. If you don't like the thematic aspects, say so and explain why. If your trouble is with numbers, can it, those can always be adjusted for balance later. Naturally some troll (who will accuse me of being a troll) will do everything they can to attack the numbers while ignoring anything thematic. Sometimes you wish you could reach through the internet and slap the ever living....
As previously stated, this paragraph pretty much begs for us to tear this post to shreds. As you asked, I will oblige:



Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept I (Based on Star Metal Adept)
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 6, Sorceror Concentration II, Elemental Manipulation II, Energy Manipulation II, and any one of: Self-Sufficient, or Improved Mental Toughness.
Benefit: You are devoted to becoming one with the Eternal Sapphire. Through strange rituals known only to you and a select few others you have begun your transformation. You gain damage reduction 3/Adamantine and Fortification 25%. In addition you recieve 50% healing from Repair Spells. You resist death effects, poison and disease exceptionally well, gaining a +1 bonus to saves against spells and effects of this nature. Your form is your own, and is very difficult to alter. You gain +2 to all saves versus the Transmutation school of spells.

Overpowered. First tier of this enhancement should offer DR 1/- and +2 saves vs poison and disease. That is all.


Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 12, Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept I, Sorceror Concentration III, Elemental Manipulation III, Energy Manipulation III, Toughness
Benefit: You are devoted to becoming one with the Eternal Sapphire. Through strange rituals known only to you and a select few others you continue your transformation. You gain damage reduction 5/Adamantine and Fortification 75%. In addition you recieve 75% healing from Repair Spells. You resist death effects, poison and disease exceptionally well, gaining a +2 bonus to saves against spells and effects of this nature. Further, your transformation has given you insight into the very essence of transmutation. Your Transmutation spells gain +1 to their DC and +2 to Caster level for the purposes of damage and overcoming spell resistance. You gain an additional +2 to all saves versus the Transmutation school of spells, for a total of +4.

Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept II: Crystaline Rigor
Benefit: For a brief moment you channel the pure focused essence of the Eternal Sapphire, dramatically increasing your survivability. You gain +6 Constitition, a +10 bonus to concentration, 15/Adamantine Damage Reduction, and resistance 40 to all energy types except force and sonic. The benefits of Crystaline Rigor last one minute. Crystaline Rigor is usable once per rest. While under the influence of the Eternal Sapphire you cannot be healed by any form of mortal magic.
Again, overpowered. THis tier should offer DR 2/- and +1 DC to transmutation school spells. That is all.



Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept III
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 18, Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept II, Sorceror Concentration IV, Elemental Manipulation IV, Energy Manipulation IV
Benefit: You are devoted to becoming one with the Eternal Sapphire. Through strange rituals known only to you and a select few others you perfect your transformation. You gain damage reduction 10/Adamantine and Fortification 100%. In addition you recieve 100% healing from Repair Spells. You resist death effects, poison and disease exceptionally well, gaining a +3 bonus to saves against spells and effects of this nature. Further, your transformation has given you insight into the very essence of transmutation. Your Transmutation spells gain an additional +1 to their DC and +2 to Caster level for the purposes of damage and overcoming spell resistance. Your form is your own, and is very difficult to alter. You gain an additional +2 to all saves versus the Transmutation school of spells, for a total of +6.
Drastically obscenely overpowered.
This tier should offer 50% healing from repair spells, and 25% fortification. That is all.



Sorceror Fatespinner I (Based on... Fatespinner)
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 6, Sorceror Bluff II, Force Manipulation II.
Benefit: You are one of the select few who are able to peer into the tapestry of fortune and begin to unravel its mystery. Able to predict, and to some degree manipulate fate, you gain the benefits of the feat "Evasion". In addition, you have a +4 bonus to reflex saves.
Ummmmmm free evasion doesn't appear in fatespinner's abilities. Sorry, nope...

This tier should offer human versatility-like skill/save/attack bonuses assignable to any other party member.



Sorceror Fatespinner II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 12, Sorceror Fatespinner I, Sorceror Bluff III, Force Manipulation III.
Benefit: You are one of the select few who are able to peer into the tapestry of fortune and begin to unravel its mystery, and weave the threads as you see fit. You gain "Spin". Using Spin you are able to alter destiny through your magic. You gain a pool of five spin points, each spin point allows you access to one of three effects: You gain the ability to increase the difficulty class of your spells by 2, the caster level of your spells by 4, or reduce the cost of your spells by 10%. Each of these three effects lasts twenty seconds, and consumes one spin point. In addition you are able to manipulate the fates of those around you. Nearby players enjoy a +1 bonus to saves and weapon damage, and a +2 bonus to armor class at all times.

Sorceror Fatespinner II: Weave Destiny I
Benefit: By taxing your reserves to the fullest extent you are able to actively reshape the destiny of those around you. You grant all nearby allies a +4 bonus to weapon damage, a +2 bonus to caster level, a +5 bonus to Armor Class, and a +5 bonus to saves. This effect lasts for thirty seconds and is usable once per rest. While active you cannot attack or cast spells of any kind. You are fatigued afterwards for one minute.
I like the 20 second boost, which should be the only bonus gained from the 2nd tier of this class. The party-affecting aura should not, it's overpowered. The Second paragraph should be tweaked and moved to tier III.



Sorceror Fatespinner III
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 18, Sorceror Fatespinner II, Sorceror Bluff IV, Force Manipulation IV
Benefit: You are one of the select few who are able to peer into the tapestry of fortune and you now call that tapestry your own. You are further able to alter destiny through your magic. Using Spin you are now able to increase the difficulty class of your spells by 4, the caster level of your spells by 6, or reduce the cost of your spells by 20%. Each of these three effects lasts twenty seconds, and consumes a point of spin. In addition you are able to manipulate the fates of those around you. Nearby players enjoy a +3 bonus to saves and weapon damage, and a +4 bonus to armor class.

Sorceror Fatespinner III: Weave Destiny II
Benefit: By taxing your reserves to the extreme you are able to warp destiny. You grant all nearby allies a +1 bonus to critical threat range, a +1 bonus to critical threat multiplier, a +3 bonus to spells DCs, and a +4 bonus to caster level. Further you grant allies +7 bonus to Armor Class, and a +7 bonus to saves. This effect lasts for thirty seconds and is usable once per rest. While active you cannot attack or cast spells of any kind. You are exhausted afterwards for one minute.
Nuke this one from orbit. Use the second part of the tier II idea and make the bonuses +2 across the board.



Sorceror Spirit Breaker I (Based on... Mind Bender)
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 6, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Spell Focus: Necromancy, Sorceror Charisma I
Benefit: You are the Spirit Breaker, through sheer force of personality you command the essence of the living and the dead alike. You gain +1 to the Difficulty Class of your Enchantment and Necromancy Spells. Further, your Enchantment Spells cost 10% less mana, and your Necromancy spells do 20% more damage. (Damage for our purposes includes ability damage and level drain)
Ummmm mind benders don't have much power against undead. Remove all necomantic references from this PrE. Also, the +1 DC is too strong for this level, and it should only be -2 SP for every enchantment spell cast.


Sorceror Spirit Breaker I: Kiss of Shadows
Benefit: Your ability to manipulate life force has granted you the Kiss of Shadows. Three times per day you may either heal or harm with your Kiss of Shadows. Mechnically almost identical to the paladin ability Lay on Hands, Kiss of Shadows has a two aspects. This is a necromancy effect that enjoys the percentile benefits of Spirit Breaker I, II, and III. This ability has no save and bypasses Spell Resistance.This effect has nothing to do with the Mindbender PrC from CA. Just delete this altogether.



Sorceror Spirit Breaker I: Kiss of Light
Benefit: Any living creature targeted by your Kiss of Light is healed by an amount equal to your caster level times your charisma modifier.

Sorceror Spirit Breaker I: Kiss of Night
Benefit: Any living creature targeted by your Kiss of Night is damaged by an amount equal to your caster level times your charisma modifier. I'll assume this is a clarification of the above enhancement.



Sorceror Spirit Breaker II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 12, Spirit Breaker I, Skill Focus: Use Magic Device, Sorceror Charisma, II, Sorceror Subtle Spellcasting II
Benefit: You are the Spirit Breaker, and your thirst for power only grows. You gain an additional +1 to the Difficulty Class of your Enchantment and Necromancy Spells. Further, your Enchantment Spells cost 15% less mana, and your Necromancy spells do 30% more damage, and you gain an additional +2 increase to caster level when casting Enchantment or Necromancy Spells. However, you may now project your force of will against magical objects, granting a +2 bonus to the Use Magic Device skill.This is where the +1 DC should occur for enchantment spells only, mind binders are not necromancers. +1 Enchantment DC's should be the only benefit for this tier.



Sorceror Spirit Breaker II: Shatter Spirit
Benefit: By combining your mastery of enchantment and necromancy, you are able to lay a soulsearing curse that is effective on the living and the dead alike. If the target fails it's will save (10+Sorceror Level+Charisma Modifier) it becomes enthralled by the Spirit Breaker and fights indefinitely in their defense. Shatter Spirit is usable at will, but may only be targeted to one creature at any given time. This ability bypasses Spell Resistance.

Sorceror Spirit Breajer II: Extinguish
Benefit: Any creature, living or dead, who is enthralled by your Shatter Spirit ability can be immediately slain at your command. Extinguish allows a fortitude save (10+Sorceror Level+Charisma Modifier). If the creature fails its save it dies immediately. If it succeeds it immediately breaks from Shatter Spirit and attacks the Spirit Breaker to the exclusion of all others. This ability bypasses Spell Resistance.

Sorceror Spirit Breaker II: Summon
Benefit: This ability immediately summons the Thrall to your side.
Way too many bonuses for one tier. Use the first paragraph of this enhancement tier, only. Then it's balanced.


Sorceror Spirit Breaker III
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 18, Sorceror Spirit Breaker II, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy, Sorceror Charisma III, Sorceror Subtle Spellcasting IV,
Benefit: You are the Spirit Breaker, and your thirst for power is all consuming. You gain an additional +1 to the Difficulty Class of your Enchantment and Necromancy Spells for a total of +3. Further, your Enchantment Spells cost 20% less mana, your Necromancy spells do 40% more damage. You gain an additional +2 increase to caster level when casting Enchantment or Necromancy Spells, for a total of +4. Finally, you are granted an additional +2 bonus to the Use Magic Device skill, for a total of +4.
This tier should automatically heighten all enchantment spells cast, and that should be the only benefit of the tier. There are way too many bonuses in your post for the cost.

All in all, you don't seem to have any concept of how to balance an enhancement. These you suggested are good ideas in a thematic way, but the bonuses proscribed to them are absurdly overpowered.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-03-2009, 10:41 AM
They didn't anyway? Even after I told them: hey, focus on the theme aspect, and not on the numbers.

But they didn't.

They immediately started on the shrill cries of IT'S OVERPOWERED. While completely missing the point.

So far only one response hasn't been filled with shrieking.

If you want to know why turbine is screwing up the game... take a good hard look in the mirror. =)

lol that's funny. You really are a troll. Look, we all know you've been around for a while and this is your second account. So with that in mind, you know I'm hardly the power gamer type. I agree with you that having sorc only have damage focus PREs is a poor choice, but you need to understand that your shrill and insulting attitude will only result in people either ignoring (which is what the devs will do) or looking to pick appart anything else you have to say.

If you are serious and not a troll, then you need to learn to speak calmly and with respect and I'm sure an interesting discussion will ensue.

Noctus
01-03-2009, 10:47 AM
Guys, he is just trolling.

He is blatantly offensive, claims to be new to the game ( join date: Jan 2009!), yet just wrote some supposed new PrEs.

Too much insight for a newb. Ignore his duplicity.

Angelus_dead
01-03-2009, 10:49 AM
Preamble
That was an unwise thing to say. Just letting you know. I'll be friendly and respond seriously to the suggestions, though.

First off, you create separate specialties for sorcerers without explaining why they shouldn't just share in the wizard specialties, which is how it generally works in D&D. Maybe you were assuming the DDO devs had already started that pattern and wouldn't want to deviate from it.


Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept I (Based on Star Metal Adept)
A method by which non-warforged mages can use Repair spells on themselves is important to consider, whether it's a specialty, a generic enhancement, or a spell/magic item. However, this isn't the way to do it.

Thematically:
Transforming into a construct is associated with the Repair skill, which wizards get but sorcs don't. If only one of those classes were going to get construct-body transformation, it should be the wizard.
Unlike most D&D settings, Eberron already has humanoid constructs as a normal part of everyday life. Any specialty to turn into a construct should be based on the existing living constructs in the setting, not green-space-rocks addicts. You'd specifically want to work from the Renegade Mastermaker tradition, which is part of the plotline in the Made To Order quest, found in House Kundarak. That way it could fit into the setting.

Game Balance:
It is racially unfair for an ability like this to be offered to sorcerers instead of wizards. A Warforged sorc has the lowest charisma of any sorc, but he still took the class because he'd uniquely get a self-repair capability. This suggestion would leave WF still at -2 or -4 charisma, but others could self-repair.

It is additionally racially unfair that the suggestion provides substantial benefits beyond repairability. You see, warforged already have 100% repairability, meaning that if they took this spec they'd miss out on a big part of the benefits- but it still has other serious benefits (fortification, DR, transmutation etc). Thus you'd create a situation where Warforged were even squisher and less construct-protected than sorcs of other races. That's backwards.

A feature to gain permanent repairability should never be added unless it includes a corresponding reduction in divine healing (or is prohibitively expensive). Partly that's breaking a theme of what it means to change yourself into a construct, but it's also bad for game balance. (And yet again, racially unfair to the warforgeds who can't get healed like that).

Oh, and the requirements are fairly bad: Elemental and Energy? That has nothing to do with the concept of the specialty, and are simply valuable things for a sorc to know anyway.



Sorceror Fatespinner I (Based on... Fatespinner)
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 6, Sorceror Bluff II, Force Manipulation II.
Giving a pure caster Evasion at level 6 is stupidly overpowered.

The features which improve your own spellcasting are moderately underpowered, because they only last for 20 seconds 5 times per day. That's not bad in itself, but it means that the spellcasting improvements are only a small part of what the specialty would be used for. That could be improved if there was a way to regenerate the points, maybe.

The combat buffs to nearby party members: fairly bad because that's so different from what sorcerers normally do, and trespasses on the role of a bard. If this were added it would be fairly demanded by raid-leaders, who would send the Fatespinner sorc in to help beatdown a raid boss. That's too different from what sorcs traditionally do, and yet it would often be the biggest contribution he could make. (It's acceptable for a specialty to provide features dissimilar to what a class normally does, but they shouldn't overshadow so much)

I will once again mention that it could be a good idea to play a high level character first, so you don't make suggestions in a vacuum. Then again, the DDO devs have occasionally released game features which are similarly ignorant, so you're in good company (for example, the Assassin Focus poisons and Inevitable Dominion Finishers are both transparently ill-conceived, but they made it into the game)



Sorceror Spirit Breaker I (Based on... Mind Bender)
Stuff like +1 DC and 10% less mana from some category of spells is a fine kind of feature for a specialty to have. As it happens, Enchantment is a rather unhelpful school to get a sp reduction in, but that's not your fault (and it might change with future quests)

To say "necromancy does 20% more damage" is basically useless, and looks a little ignorant. The necromancy spells that DDO players care about are almost never measured in a number of damage to which 20% could be added: Bestow Curse, Fear, Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee. Enervate is a number of neg levels, but adding 20% more to 1d4 is barely noticeable. Ray of Enfeeble/Exhaust impose an ability penalty, not ability damage, but prehap you intended the 20% bonus to apply there as well. That'd be a little better, but in general it would be a better idea for the "bonus to the penalty" to be expressed additively instead of multiplicatively.

Kiss of Shadows: Ok, the 3/day limit means it won't be usable enough to be really important to gameplay. The sorcerer having a cure clicky isn't congruent with the class focus, but that's ok. (You don't need to mention that it ignores Spell Resistance, because in DDO SR never blocks anything measured in hitpoints)

The caster level bonus: aside from beating SR, improved caster level is almost worthless for enchantment and necromancy. In fact, higher caster level is occasionally a detriment when you charm monsters.

UMD bonus is unrelated to the features of the sorcerer class, even though many sorcs go for it anyhow.

Shatter Spirit: It's a good ability, but a defining ability of the specialty shouldn't wait for tier 3 to appear (because then it'd not providing fun from levels 6-17). It'd be better if the specialty were renamed to "Mindbender" and a lesser version of this feature was accessible from tier 1.

Strakeln
01-03-2009, 10:54 AM
Interesting ideas, some seem a bit too powerful and focused on the wrong class.

For example, the eternal sapphire thing. Permanent 15 DR and energy resist 40... while nice, does it make sense to give this to a class that

1) Is a spellcasting class
2) Can already cast slightly weaker versions of these spells (stoneskin, resist 30).

I fear the end result would be the "ultimate melee" being 18 sorc/2 monk with this PrE. Or something silly like that.

Artistik
01-03-2009, 10:56 AM
It's hard to enjoy the theme when it's so imbalanced. A balanced idea looks much better.


Actually, these ARE balanced. You guys just aren't reading what I wrote.

Angelus_dead
01-03-2009, 10:57 AM
If its the post I've seen, that was Angelus_Dead posting what he knew from the printed books. I'll try to find it, but I vaguely remember him saying they got things like immunity to their own element and a way to get rid of an enemy's immunity to theirs. His example was a fire-immune fire savant shrugging off aaretrikos's DBF's, while Big Red was standing in a firewall he THOUGHT he was immune to hehe.
To be precise about it, the Elemental Savant prestige class doesn't grant the ability to penetrate immunity to your favorite element. However, in D&D there are other feats which grant that ability (Searing Spell, Piercing Cold), and Elemental Savants always have to take those feats. You see, a Fire Savant loses the ability to cast Cold, Acid, and Lightning spells, so he'd be really nerfed around Red Dragons, Devils, and Fire Elementals unless he had Searing Spell.

So it's not literally a feature of the prestige class, but it's an ability characters of that class always got. If the DDO version of Fire Savant obeyed the D&D rule and turned your Acid Fog, Cone of Cold, and Chain Lightning all into fire, then we'd reasonably expect you'd also get a way to do fire damage to immune creatures.

Or the devs could do something completely different, we can't guess.

Aspenor
01-03-2009, 11:06 AM
Actually, these ARE balanced. You guys just aren't reading what I wrote.

Balanced around what? Pun-pun?

Borror0
01-03-2009, 11:11 AM
You guys just aren't reading what I wrote.
What makes you believe you so?

Artistik
01-03-2009, 11:18 AM
Interesting ideas, some seem a bit too powerful and focused on the wrong class.

For example, the eternal sapphire thing. Permanent 15 DR and energy resist 40... while nice, does it make sense to give this to a class that

1) Is a spellcasting class
2) Can already cast slightly weaker versions of these spells (stoneskin, resist 30).

I fear the end result would be the "ultimate melee" being 18 sorc/2 monk with this PrE. Or something silly like that.

Like this guy.... it doesn't give permanent DR 15 and Energy resist 40. It gives it for a minute, and while you have it you can't be healed. Period. It's a fight or flee ability. You become a tankmage for 60 seconds., but you'd best be the last one standing.


People are just not thinking through a lot of stuff.


Take a look at the Sapphire PrE... notice something? Outside of the transmutation benefits... virtually everything is defensive. Just how often does your sorc actually spend DEFENDING. Sure, he might bounce around and the like... but on the whole he's rarely getting swung at. No where near as often as a fighter, barb, or pally. So those defenses are rarely being used, compared to say a kensai's +to damage, and eventual critical modifier.


Or... take a look at the Fatespinner. He has a number of benefits that last all of around 30 seconds... but his real impressive power, the fateweave, effectively takes him out of the fight completely. He goes from being a full fledged sorc to a guy in a dress. Even then, it lasts all of like 30 seconds and leaves him exhausted.


Finally, the Spirit Breaker...

did you examine just how much goes into actually GETTING the enhancements?

If I recall right, it consumes all but around 2 of your standard characters feats. That's a hell of a price to pay. And for what?

All the benefits go to two schools of spells and a bastardized cohort.


Compare this to say... the kensai...

The kensai gets:

Skill Focus: Intimidate
Skill Focus: Diplomacy
Skill Focus: Bluff
Skill Focus: Concentration
+2 (presumably) to All Combat Feats
+2 to Hit (Weapon Focus x 2... so that's three more feats)
+4 to damage (Weapon Spec. x 2 for two handers)
+4 to confirm criticals (Power Crit)
+8 to Criticals before damage
+8 Str (better than most Rage and stackable with rage)
+1 Permanent Critical Threat Range
+3 Saves vs. Magic
+3 (presumably) Action Boosts Per Day


and that's not even EVERYTHING. And a many of those will be used every single swing.


Compare that to Spirit Breaker:

+3 Enchantment DC
+3 Necromancy DC
20% Enchantment sp discount
40% Necro bonus damage (Count the # of actual DAMAGING nec. spells that are in this game even with ray of feeb)
+4 Enchantment Caster Level
+4 Necro Caster Level
+4 UMD
+1 Thrall
+3 Lay on Hands


That's it... that's all.

That's what you're all going ga ga over. Even if you counted everything as a feat it would STILL be right about on par with Kensai, while consuming FAR more character resources.

Mr._Dna
01-03-2009, 11:28 AM
To be precise about it, the Elemental Savant prestige class doesn't grant the ability to penetrate immunity to your favorite element. However, in D&D there are other feats which grant that ability (Searing Spell, Piercing Cold), and Elemental Savants always have to take those feats. You see, a Fire Savant loses the ability to cast Cold, Acid, and Lightning spells, so he'd be really nerfed around Red Dragons, Devils, and Fire Elementals unless he had Searing Spell.

So it's not literally a feature of the prestige class, but it's an ability characters of that class always got. If the DDO version of Fire Savant obeyed the D&D rule and turned your Acid Fog, Cone of Cold, and Chain Lightning all into fire, then we'd reasonably expect you'd also get a way to do fire damage to immune creatures.

Or the devs could do something completely different, we can't guess.

Most likely it will be substantially different. There would be way too much coding involved in changing all the damage types of spells around and such.

The best we could probably expect is some type of personal immunity to your chosen element, which will certainly have its situational appeal. We'll probably start seeing LFM's for "fire sorc" or "cold sorc" depending on what the mob type is in that dungeon.

Angelus_dead
01-03-2009, 11:36 AM
To combine overpowered and underpowered in one feature doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea, even if it is "balanced".


Take a look at the Sapphire PrE... notice something? Outside of the transmutation benefits... virtually everything is defensive. Just how often does your sorc actually spend DEFENDING. Sure, he might bounce around and the like... but on the whole he's rarely getting swung at.
Circular reasoning.


Or... take a look at the Fatespinner. He has a number of benefits that last all of around 30 seconds... but his real impressive power, the fateweave, effectively takes him out of the fight completely. He goes from being a full fledged sorc to a guy in a dress. Even then, it lasts all of like 30 seconds and leaves him exhausted.
I already addressed that feature above, but I'll mention that there has been a dispute in this thread as to if you're really a new player, or are just pretending. (I don't think you're pretending!) However, the comment about "leaves him exhausted" would be a clever way to emphasize your ignorance. FYI: DDO player characters don't get exhausted for 60 seconds.

Borror0
01-03-2009, 11:41 AM
+3 Enchantment DC
+3 Necromancy DC
20% Enchantment sp discount
+4 Enchantment Caster Level
+4 Necro Caster Level
+4 UMD
+3 Lay on Hands.
Not overpowered, huh?:rolleyes:

Arkat
01-03-2009, 11:45 AM
Balanced around what? Pun-pun?

Lol!! Nice reference! ;)


BTW...Kobolds rule!

Gol
01-03-2009, 12:05 PM
Actually, these ARE balanced. You guys just aren't reading what I wrote.
I did, and responded accordingly. I can only presume you didn't reply because I didn't post troll-bait, which appears to be exactly what you wanted. Shame on me for expecting otherwise.

Gol
01-03-2009, 12:06 PM
Balanced around what? Pun-pun?
Oh man, the memories of forums long forgotten. I remember the day that post was started. I know I have quite a few posts on that thread that created the Pun-pun.

sephiroth1084
01-03-2009, 12:14 PM
Honestly, if you want some real, thoughtful responses from people who are going to take you and your ideas seriously, you should man up and go back and expurgate your original post. Then, rework all those ridiculous numbers to something even a munchkin would consider reasonable.

After you've done all that, come back to the community for some intelligent debate.

Angelus_dead
01-03-2009, 01:59 PM
Not overpowered, huh?:rolleyes:
Well, it's not overpowered because it becomes very good at a task that itself is unimportant. (Imagine whether a +50 Tumble item or +50 UMD item would be overpowered)

DDO sorcs hardly ever need a +3 or +4 bonus on DC and CL for necro/enchant. Can you think of a situation where that'd be pretty helpful? Sure, there are times when it's tough to Hold or Finger some monsters, but in that case a +3 won't make a lot of difference; you're still going to have to Enervate 3-4 times if you want to accomplish anything.

There also aren't really places where -20% enchant mana cost would be helpful. -20% on necromancy would be much much better (and in fact, that resembles my old suggestion for Wizard Specialist enhancements)

Even though it's not overpowered against the challenges of the current game, that still doesn't mean it would be a good addition- because someday encounters could be added where necro/enchant DCs are important.

Borror0
01-03-2009, 02:06 PM
Even though it's not overpowered against the challenges of the current game, that still doesn't mean it would be a good addition- because someday encounters could be added where necro/enchant DCs are important.
Perhaps my use of overpowered wasn't correct, but that's what I meant.

Imagine sorcerers getting any of that in Module 4-like content! :eek:

bobbryan2
01-03-2009, 02:15 PM
Perhaps my use of overpowered wasn't correct, but that's what I meant.

Imagine sorcerers getting any of that in Module 4-like content! :eek:

In a sense.. they would. As 12 sorcs would be gettin' the second tier right when they get to Gianthold...

It's not really balanced well for mid levels. That just isn't too much of a concern for people that spend their time at end-game, is all.

Angelus_dead
01-03-2009, 02:23 PM
Imagine sorcerers getting any of that in Module 4-like content! :eek:
Module 4 gianthold? The specialty would mean typical enemies fail enchant and necro saves about 95% of the time, in stark contrast to today where they fail 95% of the time.

That's until you get to the Reaver's pet air elementals, who normally fail their saves 5% of the time, but the specialty would bring it down to 5% failure.

Borror0
01-03-2009, 02:24 PM
The specialty would mean typical enemies fail enchant and necro saves about 95% of the time, in stark contrast to today where they fail 95% of the time.
I don't remember monster failing to Finger of Death that often. Oh well, could be wrong.

Angelus_dead
01-03-2009, 02:28 PM
I don't remember monster failing to Finger of Death that often. Oh well, could be wrong.
Gianthold, remember? Think about POP, Crucible, Goblin Lair, Orc Lair...

Although back when mod4 first came out, DPS spells were relatively weaker because the cheap Maximize and Empower hadn't been introduced yet. At that time runs around GH would often feature 0-2 sorcs, 0-1 wizards, and 1-2 clerics who between them shared 90% of the kills with instant-death spells (with the sorcs being first because of lower cooldowns, and the clerics being last for lacking a PK equivalent). Anyone without an insta-kill spell would fight for scraps, or simply feel useless and contribute by pulling levers instead.

Oftentimes the only reason a melee got any kills was because all the casters had decided to Finger the same mob.

Of course regarding reaver's Fate, it's important to distinguish the actual version as was released in Mod4 (where Finger and Dance were everything) from the new modified raid where you almost can't Finger at all.

Mithran
01-03-2009, 02:37 PM
If we're getting Improved Evasion Rings, why would we want to waste Enhancement points on it?

Ganidel
01-03-2009, 02:57 PM
Let the devs work, you have no clue what the sorc PrE will be like, why not wait and find out? then decide if its worth whining about.

Artistik
01-03-2009, 03:03 PM
I like how, in telling me how WILDLY overpowered it was (or TERRIBLY unimportant it was ) or INCREDIBLY... whatever... it was.. no one bothered to actually compare it to the kensai, which easily has as many, if not more, feat like attributes.

But while *****ing about whether or not it was wildly overpowered... like I said they would... (or *****ing about how incredibly useless and unwanted they would be (which is really just an attack on me)... few acknowledge that the entire purpose was to expand on the FLAVOR of the PrEs... which, each and all, these would do.

They would all play very differently from each other.


See, guys, you're not very good at this. You're really just... not. You're a kind of isolated community because there really isn't a great deal of inflow on new ideas, new people. That's largely in part to the ideas that you helped push through. That you settled for. That you stood by and accepted.

Because, again, you're not very good at it. And despite it's community, not because, DDO is a neat little niche game, but from the more I read it becomes progressively worse and worse.

Seriously, yo can follow community timeline on how bad the game ends up.


You start off with a game, some years ago, that is about a community of people playing on each server... where, quite literally the players new everybody by name.

And then follow community involvement... and the more involved this particular community became... driving off people who disagreed...shunning those with ideas (Many of you have been aroud for years and years as far as I can see, and if reading old posts taught me anything... it's both how savage and how cowardly you guys can be..... you endlessly, and en masse, attack a single person you don't like... and then go crawling to the mods for protection when they start fighting back).

If, for example, I called any of the older posters here, an idiot...despite the fact that they are... I would almost certainly end up with multiple reprimands... compared to the contrast, where if they attacked me.



I don't know, regardless. There are a few pockets of resistance... people smart enough to say things like "Don't bother arguing with this community".

Not because they're right. But because they're stupid.

This community in one breath said an idea was WILDLY AND UNBELIEVABLY overpowered.

And then turned around and said how unimportant, and unwanted, and useless it would be.

Then said it was overpowered DESPITE being underpowered... or whichever.


I'm sure they'll retort with some convoluted response. But it will be just as weak as all their other answers. Just as weak as what they've done with this game. A community gets the game it deserves, and a community that's generated bosses with 200,000 hitpoints with blanket immunityes... when their basic weapon is a 1d8 longsword and a magic missile... that tells me something. It tells me that the players are expected to be stupid because all the devs want from the players is an extended version of whack a mole. It's all the players are capable of.

That and endless grinding for "ubah loot". Isn't that what you all left WoW for?

Or maybe you guys didn't really leave WoW at all?

:)

Gol
01-03-2009, 04:01 PM
And yet, you've continued to (intentionally) be unwilling to continue any discussions with the (few) people willing to be reasonable.

Thread reported for Trolling.

UnderwearModel
01-03-2009, 04:02 PM
But not having to take splashes.

Everything I saw made the sorceror so much more overpowered. Why not just ask for
8,000 spell points and not even bother asking for the splash of other classes? Less complication for the programmers.

Sorceror NeverEndingSP I (Based on... my sorceror is not overpowered)
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 6,
Benefit: double your current spell points

Sorceror NeverEndingSP II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 12
Benefit: double your current spell points. Stacks with NESp I.

Artistik
01-03-2009, 04:06 PM
And yet, you've continued to (intentionally) be unwilling to continue any discussions with the (few) people willing to be reasonable.

Thread reported for Trolling.

It's hard to smell the roses in a pile of dung.

Angelus_dead
01-03-2009, 04:13 PM
Not overpowered, huh?:rolleyes:
Actually, the overpowered thing about it isn't in the list you quoted.

The problem is that the Shatter Spirit and Extinguish abilities are usable without any mana cost and have excessively high save DCs. Charm-Kill, Charm-Kill, etc forever. With just those two abilities you could clear whole quests (although if it had a large cooldown that would be awkward).

If stuff like that were added, the mana and DC should be comparable to a spell, but with a moderate superiority to indicate specialization.

However, the Charm and Summon mechanics in DDO are poorly designed, and until they're fixed it would be a mistake to add any specialties based on that functionality.

Angelus_dead
01-03-2009, 04:26 PM
I like how, in telling me how WILDLY overpowered it was (or TERRIBLY unimportant it was ) or INCREDIBLY... whatever... it was.. no one bothered to actually compare it to the kensai, which easily has as many, if not more, feat like attributes.
No, you did bother to compare it with kensai. Nobody else did because that comparison doesn't give any useful information.

There's X+Y and W+Z, but comparing Y to Z is uninformative.


few acknowledge that the entire purpose was to expand on the FLAVOR of the PrEs...
To acknowledge "purpose" is not really useful. That'd be like giving points for the attempt instead of the success. Sure, it doesn't hurt to point out that someone's trying to help, but it doesn't solve anything except maybe to make someone feel good.


They would all play very differently from each other.
That would only be true occasionally when the specific features allow an overpowered exploit. In most situations they'd play nearly the same as any other sorc.


See, guys, you're not very good at this. You're really just... not. You're a kind of isolated community because there really isn't a great deal of inflow on new ideas, new people. That's largely in part to the ideas that you helped push through. That you settled for. That you stood by and accepted.
That is completely and massively wrong.

The reason there's fairly little discussion of game development topics here is absolutely and totally because of the DDO developers at Turbine, and was not encouraged in the slightest by ideas taken from this forum.

The fact is that DDO development is very slow, and developer interaction is even slower. There's hardly any point to players having a serious discussion on these boards, because the game design isn't really open to their ideas. The best you can expect for threads of this nature is entertainment for the participants.


Because, again, you're not very good at it. And despite it's community, not because, DDO is a neat little niche game, but from the more I read it becomes progressively worse and worse.

Seriously, yo can follow community timeline on how bad the game ends up.

You start off with a game, some years ago, that is about a community of people playing on each server... where, quite literally the players new everybody by name.
None of that has a basis in reality.


And then follow community involvement... and the more involved this particular community became... driving off people who disagreed...shunning those with ideas (Many of you have been aroud for years and years as far as I can see, and if reading old posts taught me anything...
Tell me, where did you read old posts?

I ask the question because this forum doesn't keep old posts. It would be pretty cool if I could call up some of my old things where I predicted certain errors years before the devs went ahead and made them, but it really looks like they get deleted after a number of months.


I'm sure they'll retort with some convoluted response. But it will be just as weak as all their other answers. Just as weak as what they've done with this game. A community gets the game it deserves
Once again, completely wrong. You've got this illusion that DDO has been in fairly active development since it was released. It simply hasn't.

There is no test server for this game, and there practically never has been. Developers barely ever post ideas early enough for them to change them. Just look at any specific example of a change and you'll see that I'm right.

Angelus_dead
01-03-2009, 04:56 PM
The reason there's fairly little discussion of game development topics here is absolutely and totally because of the DDO developers at Turbine, and was not encouraged in the slightest by ideas taken from this forum.

The fact is that DDO development is very slow, and developer interaction is even slower. There's hardly any point to players having a serious discussion on these boards, because the game design isn't really open to their ideas. The best you can expect for threads of this nature is entertainment for the participants.
To expand on that a little, compare the DDO developer progress and forums with that of WOW. I don't play WOW, but obviously I know people who do since over 2% of the national population has subscribed at some point.

WOW is culturally influential even to non-players, and I am continually impressed with the nature of their developer interaction on the forums (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/). The DDO forums were improved in that way a few months ago when Eladrin started posting previews of new class features coming in module 9, and adding them up there have been 4 substantial dev posts in the past 14 days. One of them was in response to players, the others were press-releases.

But over on the WOW forums, there have been 12 substantial dev posts in the past 14 hours. I can't even count the number of serious and informative posts they'd get in two weeks. But more importantly than the number of posts is the fact that they appear to edit the game design enough that player feedback can actually make a difference.

If a player complains that X or Y class feature is underpowered, it's not surprising for them to reply with either an agreement that something should change, or an explanation of why characters of that type don't actually need a stronger feature. They've even been seen to admit it when their game has a flaw they can't see a way to fix.

Obviously, a big part of that superiority can be explained by the huge WOW budget raked in by their earlier success, as they can simply afford to hire a lot more devs. But even aside from that there's a matter of being open to changes (and capable of implementing them fast enough for it to matter).


For examples of how player feedback has been futile to DDO, look at some specific examples of past changes.

Hirelings: The fact that they were even being strongly considered wasn't mentioned until they were mostly working. If some customers thought they'd be a waste of time, they had no opportunity to say so

Dark Monks: There are two monk options at level 3; the Light one which is reasonable and the Dark one which is horribly pointless. This flaw was noticed by players in May 08, and not only has it not been fixed, but the devs haven't even acknowledged it.

TWF Monks: It took approximately 6 hours from the playable release to determine that unarmed monk combat was fatally flawed compared to TWF kama, but it took about 200 days for the devs to do something about it.

The Black Abbot: Sorry, I can't explain this one. I've sworn an oath. But at least I'm obliged to mention that it may have been an important turing point. That is, when the Black Abbot was in development the devs had some active comments, and that continued a little while after release when they badly broke the raid because it hadn't be playing like they intended. That was the last time the devs made serious conversation on the forums. I have a suspicion that their developer budget was cut and much of their
man-hours were assigned to other projects, and they shied-away from talking with customers to avoid acknowledging problems they wouldn't be able to fix.

Metamagic Costs: There had been no player support for the change before it was announced, and once it showed up in the WDA that was final- it was there forever, with never a justification given beyond "I wanted that for a while"

Raid Loot Rules: I better not get into explaining that either. I encourage you to research it, though.

Gol
01-03-2009, 05:07 PM
The Black Abbot: Sorry, I can't explain this one. I've sworn an oath. But at least I'm obliged to mention that it may have been an important turing point. That is, when the Black Abbot was in development the devs had some active comments, and that continued a little while after release when they badly broke the raid because it hadn't be playing like they intended. That was the last time the devs made serious conversation on the forums. I have a suspicion that their developer budget was cut and much of their man-hours were assigned to other projects, and they shied-away from talking with customers to avoid acknowledging problems they wouldn't be able to fix.
AD, I've decided the #1 problem with Abbott is the precedent it sets for the players. That is, exploiting to complete a raid is permissible. The longer they turn a blind eye to it, the more it becomes a black eye. Most notably, I remember people getting banned for exploiting in Vault of Night. Same for Demon Queen. Even Reaver got some bans for the "safe spot" firewall shenanigans. I've yet to see somebody get banned for exploiting in a raid since the Abbott came out. The longer they go w/o fixing it, the more I'm convinced it's not a coincidence.

Angelus_dead
01-03-2009, 05:24 PM
AD, I've decided the #1 problem with Abbott is the precedent it sets for the players. That is, exploiting to complete a raid is permissible. The longer they turn a blind eye to it, the more it becomes a black eye. Most notably, I remember people getting banned for exploiting in Vault of Night. Same for Demon Queen. Even Reaver got some bans for the "safe spot" firewall shenanigans. I've yet to see somebody get banned for exploiting in a raid since the Abbott came out.
In general it is a mistake for devs to ban someone for exploiting a raid. They should fix the raid so you can't exploit. Banning someone is rather like an admission you can't fix your software.

Sure, it's against some rules and maybe principles to exploit, but it's just a game, and the fault really goes to the incompetent devs who made it possible.

As to the Abbot in particular: there is no way you can really blame someone for exploiting that specific raid without being Lawful Stupid (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupidChaoticStupid). The raid is broken; the software is flawed. Exploiting there actually means you're working around a software bug.

You are correct that it sets a bad precedent, but I don't think that's the worst thing about the Abbot fiasco. More important is that it sent a message to the players that the devs didn't care anymore; that they would break things, not fix them, not acknowledge there was anything wrong, and then even lie about whether it was working right. (Whether or not they actually technically lied, the impression was created)

Lorien_the_First_One
01-03-2009, 05:32 PM
It's hard to smell the roses in a pile of dung.

Your thread might be more successful if you stopped posting in it.

Strakeln
01-03-2009, 05:45 PM
Like this guy.... it doesn't give permanent DR 15 and Energy resist 40. It gives it for a minute, and while you have it you can't be healed. Period. It's a fight or flee ability. You become a tankmage for 60 seconds., but you'd best be the last one standing.PROTIP: excess verbosity results in skimming. You're guilty of the former, I'm guilty of the latter.

Aspenor
01-03-2009, 06:04 PM
blah blah blah blah [insert jab at gaming community here]

It's impossible to take you seriously, because you're so obviously out of touch with reality.

Get a few more months under your belt, then come back and we'll talk.

bobbryan2
01-03-2009, 07:13 PM
Oh... don't forget the impression that the devs would rather the players not be able to beat a raid at all, than do it some other way than they intended it.

Their way or the highway. (That perception was there before the Abbot, but the Abbot made it impossible to defend that it wasn't the case.)

bandyman1
01-03-2009, 08:42 PM
I figured this out the first time the " new player " posted.


Common guys, tell me NONE of you saw this coming???


IT'S DINGO123!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arkat
01-03-2009, 11:04 PM
Nevermind. I'm wasting my time here.

Artistik
01-03-2009, 11:12 PM
You chastise us for not responding to certain parts of your posts but when someone like A_D (who seems to be trying to respond reasonably to them), you ignore them.

I'll bet you won't respond to this post by A_D:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1991425&postcount=47

He didn't try to respond constructively.

Read the post carefully. The whole thing essentially boils down to "You're wrong, because I say you are".


For example:

No, you did bother to compare it with kensai. Nobody else did because that comparison doesn't give any useful information.

There's X+Y and W+Z, but comparing Y to Z is uninformative.


...........

Now he says that comparing Prestige Enhancements to Prestige Enhancements is entirely uninformative... he doesn't really explain WHY it isn't useful. He simply says "It's isn't".

Why? because it supports his argument.

I can do that too.

Here, watch:

Sorcerors simply don't need PrEs. Class X vs. Class Y Results in playability Z.


Now, I don't back up my position at all.

I just sit back smugly and act like I'm being constructive, when I'm really just shilling for my own point of view without any actual data outside of personal opinion, none of which I really back up to any degree.

Angelus_dead
01-03-2009, 11:27 PM
Read the post carefully. The whole thing essentially boils down to "You're wrong, because I say you are".
No, it does not say anything like that.


Now he says that comparing Prestige Enhancements to Prestige Enhancements is entirely uninformative... he doesn't really explain WHY it isn't useful. He simply says "It's isn't".
That is true. I didn't explain why, because I didn't want to waste time on something that's obvious to anyone who's has thought seriously about the topic.

Maybe there is some need to explain it, so here goes:
The reason you should not compare Fighter specialties against Sorcerer specialties is that some of them can only be taken by Fighters, while the others can only be taken by Sorcerers. (See, I told you it was painfully obvious). Fighter and Sorcerer are not identical classes, and more importantly, Fighter and Sorcerer are not balanced classes.

Just ask anyone for a sorted list of which DDO classes are most in need of a boost to make them valuable compared to other characters in the game: Fighter is number one

Therefore, Fighter specialties should be stronger than specialties given to spellcasting classes, because Fighters are the ones who need improved power. Right now, Fighter players are anxiously awaiting for module 9's specialty enhancements to fix their class. Sorcerers don't need that kind of change.

Angelus_dead
01-03-2009, 11:28 PM
Nevermind. I'm wasting my time here.
Me too! But occasionally, wasting time can be fun.

For a while at least.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-03-2009, 11:55 PM
I figured this out the first time the " new player " posted.


Common guys, tell me NONE of you saw this coming???


IT'S DINGO123!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know now that you mention it I do see the similarity in attidude, intellect, and quality of posting.

assamite
01-04-2009, 12:02 AM
Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept III
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Sorceror Level 18, Sorceror Eternal Sapphire Adept II, Sorceror Concentration IV, Elemental Manipulation IV, Energy Manipulation IV
Benefit: You are devoted to becoming one with the Eternal Sapphire. Through strange rituals known only to you and a select few others you perfect your transformation. You gain damage reduction 10/Adamantine and Fortification 100%. In addition you recieve 100% healing from Repair Spells. You resist death effects, poison and disease exceptionally well, gaining a +3 bonus to saves against spells and effects of this nature. Further, your transformation has given you insight into the very essence of transmutation. Your Transmutation spells gain an additional +1 to their DC and +2 to Caster level for the purposes of damage and overcoming spell resistance. Your form is your own, and is very difficult to alter. You gain an additional +2 to all saves versus the Transmutation school of spells, for a total of +6.

Not gonna lie..... was kinda pist when i began to read this thread but, read further an saw it was just a proposition lol. If a Sorce gets as much dr as my S@B fighter that had to pay 6 feats and a chunk of ap to get..... im rerolling him a sorce :D

bandyman1
01-04-2009, 12:11 AM
You know now that you mention it I do see the similarity in attidude, intellect, and quality of posting.

Yep. Welcome newer forum members to a glimpse, that old time forum members will recognize, of the same twisted intellect that brought us such classics as;

Make Clerical Healing Spells Cost No SP

Experience Potions

WoW Solo Zones

I'm Afraid of Sorcerors


And my personal favorite;

Raidless Raidloot



Look them up. Trust me they are worth the time in pure comedic genius :D.

Korvek
01-04-2009, 12:21 AM
Yep. Welcome newer forum members to a glimpse, that old time forum members will recognize, of the same twisted intellect that brought us such classics as;

Make Clerical Healing Spells Cost No SP

Experience Potions

WoW Solo Zones

I'm Afraid of Sorcerors


And my personal favorite;

Raidless Raidloot



Look them up. Trust me they are worth the time in pure comedic genius :D.

Are those still around on here? I haven't checked them lately, despite their level of humor. My favorite among those was the Cleric Healing spells costing no sp personally.

Arkat
01-04-2009, 09:37 AM
I figured this out the first time the " new player " posted.


Common guys, tell me NONE of you saw this coming???


IT'S DINGO123!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



OMG, I do believe you're right!

Here's the last words of wisdom from Dingo123 (before the ones in this thread of course) from over a year ago:



http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1346783&postcount=6

Aspenor
01-04-2009, 09:42 AM
Are those still around on here? I haven't checked them lately, despite their level of humor. My favorite among those was the Cleric Healing spells costing no sp personally.

nope. the forums have been cleansed...

i lost all the sorcerer guides I had written.... :( (again)

Arkat
01-04-2009, 09:48 AM
nope. the forums have been cleansed...


Oh no, they're still around. In the Search function, go to Advanced Search and do a Search by User Name in the upper right-hand text box. type in "Dingo123" and hit the Search Now button.

Here are some of what comes up:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=119353 (no SP for cures)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=119768 (experience potions)

You'll get 54 results of Dingo-y goodness! :D

Borror0
01-04-2009, 09:51 AM
nope. the forums have been cleansed...

i lost all the sorcerer guides I had written.... :( (again)
If you're referring to the purge, it didn't affect the General and Development forums.

If you're talking about the pruning, they keep threads that are a little over one year old, then they are gone or perhaps archived.

Aspenor
01-04-2009, 09:53 AM
If you're referring to the purge, it didn't affect the General and Development forums.

If you're talking about the pruning, they keep threads that are a little over one year old, then they are gone or perhaps archived.

I know. Maybe I should have paid more attention and bumped them to the top more often. Not sure if that would have helped anyway, though.

PS - im sure you noticed i just did just that....lost a couple of them i think, no enchanter or instant-kill

Artistik
01-04-2009, 01:05 PM
Yep. Welcome newer forum members to a glimpse, that old time forum members will recognize, of the same twisted intellect that brought us such classics as;

Make Clerical Healing Spells Cost No SP

Experience Potions

WoW Solo Zones

I'm Afraid of Sorcerors


And my personal favorite;

Raidless Raidloot



Look them up. Trust me they are worth the time in pure comedic genius :D.



Um... I might be mistaken... but effectively, haven't some of those ideas already come to pass in some respect? Particularly the raidless raidloot? From what I gather relics provide exceptional quality gear... without doing raids... and although you have to raid for the greensteel items... largely... it's just people in a normal party getting the ingrediants.

Or how the timer on outdoor zones is only five minutes.

And although it's not exactly "experience" poitions, handing out +4 tomes as a collectable turn in certainly smacks of something similar.

Oh, and didn't they start handing out eternal wands of cure something or other? I read about that.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-04-2009, 02:23 PM
Um... I might be mistaken... but effectively, haven't some of those ideas already come to pass in some respect? Particularly the raidless raidloot? From what I gather relics provide exceptional quality gear... without doing raids... and although you have to raid for the greensteel items... largely... it's just people in a normal party getting the ingrediants.

Or how the timer on outdoor zones is only five minutes.

And although it's not exactly "experience" poitions, handing out +4 tomes as a collectable turn in certainly smacks of something similar.

Oh, and didn't they start handing out eternal wands of cure something or other? I read about that.

LMAO, OMG, it IS him lol.

I know you ignore logic but just for fun....

That would be, last I heard ONE +4 tome on all servers for a special event, and that's not similar to anything you recommended.

Eternal wands of cure light... Absolutely useless after about L3. Certainly not "free healing spells" as you said in the past.

And what relics do you think give you "exceptional quality gear"?

As for the SoS loot, a huge portion of the player base thinks its the worst mechanic for raid level loot yet. Its far worse of a grind than any raid out there so I'm not sure I'd be taking credit for it, even it if resembled your idea, which it really doesn't.

Artistik
01-04-2009, 05:10 PM
LMAO, OMG, it IS him lol.

I know you ignore logic but just for fun....

That would be, last I heard ONE +4 tome on all servers for a special event, and that's not similar to anything you recommended.

Eternal wands of cure light... Absolutely useless after about L3. Certainly not "free healing spells" as you said in the past.

And what relics do you think give you "exceptional quality gear"?

As for the SoS loot, a huge portion of the player base thinks its the worst mechanic for raid level loot yet. Its far worse of a grind than any raid out there so I'm not sure I'd be taking credit for it, even it if resembled your idea, which it really doesn't.


I never said they were my ideas, only that the developers have taken steps in the direction you guys mentioned.

Borror0
01-04-2009, 05:42 PM
I never said they were my ideas, only that the developers have taken steps in the direction you guys mentioned.
Actually, none of those ideas were used.

The raidless raid loot doesn't work. It's exactly the same as the turn ins, but random. It's not new and doesn't even compare to the suggested idea as Dingo wanted "an exceptionally long series of quests that allows you to choose from a list of raid quality gear. For example, if your average storyline quest chain were 4 quests long, this would be 12 to 16."

"Free healing" is limited to level 3 wands, which is a joke given the timer and the amount healed. Plus, you can still run out of charge in a quest.

I don't see how you can even compare +4 tomes to XP potions.

As for the "Wow Solo Zones", the reset timer on outdoor zones was already 5 minutes at that time.

Oblongmana
01-04-2009, 05:47 PM
Some good laughs in there though!

Lorien_the_First_One
01-04-2009, 06:15 PM
I never said they were my ideas, only that the developers have taken steps in the direction you guys mentioned.

Maybe you missed it...we're working on the guess that you are Dingo. You do seem to like his ideas so if you aren't him, that would make you his first supporter instead.

moorewr
01-04-2009, 06:39 PM
Yep. Welcome newer forum members to a glimpse, that old time forum members will recognize, of the same twisted intellect that brought us such classics as;

Make Clerical Healing Spells Cost No SP

Experience Potions

WoW Solo Zones

I'm Afraid of Sorcerors


And my personal favorite;

Raidless Raidloot



Look them up. Trust me they are worth the time in pure comedic genius :D.

Ah, thanks for dredging up the classics. :)

Artistik
01-04-2009, 07:30 PM
Maybe you missed it...we're working on the guess that you are Dingo. You do seem to like his ideas so if you aren't him, that would make you his first supporter instead.


Ahhh, so that's what that was about. You don't really respond to the things I say... you just start accusing me of being someone you don't like?

Uh huh.

Allow me to ponder on why this game is dying as rapidly as it is.

Artistik
01-04-2009, 07:33 PM
Maybe you missed it...we're working on the guess that you are Dingo. You do seem to like his ideas so if you aren't him, that would make you his first supporter instead.

Oh, and I read his post about being afraid of Sorcerors...


Based on what you guys are saying now about the Devs having to give bosses 200k hp and blanket specifically to COUNTER Magic users...and in particular the sorceror.... seems kind of prophetic at this point.

Borror0
01-04-2009, 07:46 PM
You don't really respond to the things I say... you just start accusing me of being someone you don't like?
Does he need to? Others have done it for him and you have ignored their posts.

Based on what you guys are saying now about the Devs having to give bosses 200k hp and blanket specifically to COUNTER Magic users...and in particular the sorceror.... seems kind of prophetic at this point.
You mean that he was wrong, eh?

He was scared that sorcerer will be required in every party, they are far from it. I rarely all sorcerer Shrouds... His other point was that wizard would be gimps, but sorcerer would own, that is not true. All measures that have been done to tone down sorcerers equally affect wizards. If we were to use your logic, we would have to conclude he was wrong as the developers also nerfed wizards.

Artistik
01-04-2009, 08:17 PM
Does he need to? Others have done it for him and you have ignored their posts.

You mean that he was wrong, eh?

He was scared that sorcerer will be required in every party, they are far from it. I rarely all sorcerer Shrouds... His other point was that wizard would be gimps, but sorcerer would own, that is not true. All measures that have been done to tone down sorcerers equally affect wizards. If we were to use your logic, we would have to conclude he was wrong as the developers also nerfed wizards.


Currently, on argonessen, there are 26 sorcs 16th level with fewer than 2 levels in other classes... there are around 12 wizards. So, roughly two times as many sorcs as there are wizards.

A but unscientific... but I think it helps the point.

Artistik
01-04-2009, 08:18 PM
Does he need to? Others have done it for him and you have ignored their posts.

You mean that he was wrong, eh?

He was scared that sorcerer will be required in every party, they are far from it. I rarely all sorcerer Shrouds... His other point was that wizard would be gimps, but sorcerer would own, that is not true. All measures that have been done to tone down sorcerers equally affect wizards. If we were to use your logic, we would have to conclude he was wrong as the developers also nerfed wizards.



Oh, and his comments were for level 20 or so. Without all the blanket immunities and the like, and the obcene hitpoints.. if the game were "normalized" without such things Sorcs likely WOULD, if not be required, be in very high demand.

Aspenor
01-04-2009, 08:20 PM
I don't really see how the current discussion matters...

In DnD, you're an idiot (in power terms) if you play a sorcerer instead of a wizard. What's wrong with it being the other way around, here?

Borror0
01-04-2009, 08:29 PM
Oh, and his comments were for level 20 or so. Without all the blanket immunities and the like, and the obcene hitpoints.. if the game were "normalized" without such things Sorcs likely WOULD, if not be required, be in very high demand.
...but they weren't! His argument was that sorcerer will reach virtual godhood, which they didn't.

As for the wizard remark, which seemed to be his main point in the thread, your unscientific data only seem to point out sorcerers seem to be more fun to play. That is most likely due to sorcerers also being a stronger class, but weaker does not mean useless as Dingo was trying to argue.

Artistik
01-04-2009, 09:50 PM
...but they weren't! His argument was that sorcerer will reach virtual godhood, which they didn't.

As for the wizard remark, which seemed to be his main point in the thread, your unscientific data only seem to point out sorcerers seem to be more fun to play. That is most likely due to sorcerers also being a stronger class, but weaker does not mean useless as Dingo was trying to argue.


I don't think he was trying to argue that at all, only they they would be dwarfed in desirability. Which they were.

And your comments about "They weren't!" only says that the devs took steps to PREVENT the very thing Dingo was concerned with. The Devs recognized the exact same problem.

However, the blanket immunities and massive hitpoints are far more of a "nerf" to sorcs than to Wizards, as it is much easier for Wizards to move to buffing and the like should the need arise than for Sorcs to unless pre-built that way.

Are we even playing the same game?

Borror0
01-04-2009, 10:01 PM
The Devs recognized the exact same problem.
You mean the point that was made like... 4837587658 times before him?

Most of the disagreement with Dingo was due to the "wizards will be gimped, like everything else!" position he had and the overdramatic tone he used.

However, the blanket immunities and massive hitpoints are far more of a "nerf" to sorcs than to Wizards, as it is much easier for Wizards to move to buffing and the like should the need arise than for Sorcs to unless pre-built that way.
The massive HP, true. The blanket immunities, questionable.

Artistik
01-04-2009, 10:21 PM
You mean the point that was made like... 4837587658 times before him?

Most of the disagreement with Dingo was due to the "wizards will be gimped, like everything else!" position he had and the overdramatic tone he used.

The massive HP, true. The blanket immunities, questionable.

The blanket immunities potentially even more so.

Many D&D spells are ridiculously powerful when they are ported to an MMO environment. If you were to cast charm monster on a raid monster, following PnP... unless you give it ridiculously high will saves it will become your own personal godzilla.

Because Sorcs cannot adapt their spells to the situation as a Wizard can, many of the spells a sorceror has that works very well on a normal monster doesn't work at all on a red name. A wizard can always swap these spells out. A sorceror cannot.

Angelus_dead
01-04-2009, 10:23 PM
Are we even playing the same game?
You haven't provided an indication of having played much of DDO. You never mention specific high-level encounters as examples, and some of your suggestions look like "theorycraft".

Angelus_dead
01-04-2009, 10:26 PM
Many D&D spells are ridiculously powerful when they are ported to an MMO environment. If you were to cast charm monster on a raid monster, following PnP... unless you give it ridiculously high will saves it will become your own personal godzilla.
Charm does not work that way.


Because Sorcs cannot adapt their spells to the situation as a Wizard can, many of the spells a sorceror has that works very well on a normal monster doesn't work at all on a red name. A wizard can always swap these spells out. A sorceror cannot.
That's more theorycraft: it's something that might be true in some other game system which resembled DDO in many ways, and it's even possible it could become true in a future DDO version. But that doesn't happen in DDO right now.

Try to think of an example of a monster with an immunity the wizard can circumvent by changing spells, and tell us the names of the creature and the spells...

Borror0
01-04-2009, 10:28 PM
The blanket immunities potentially even more so.
I'm extremely bored tonight, but I'm sure I can find a better way to spend my time than to reply to this post.

Artistik
01-04-2009, 11:03 PM
I'm extremely bored tonight, but I'm sure I can find a better way to spend my time than to reply to this post.

Like you... just did?

Artistik
01-04-2009, 11:09 PM
Charm does not work that way.


That's more theorycraft: it's something that might be true in some other game system which resembled DDO in many ways, and it's even possible it could become true in a future DDO version. But that doesn't happen in DDO right now.

Try to think of an example of a monster with an immunity the wizard can circumvent by changing spells, and tell us the names of the creature and the spells...

Any red name in the game.

Haste.

If at the start of a quest neither a sorceror nor a wizard has haste (or most any buffing spell in the game), the Wizard can swap out another spell and replace it with haste.

And you can say Well DRR the Sorceror WILL have haste, because all sorcerors get haste! (Yes, I've leveled up to the point where I understand the necessity of haste for casters.) The Wizard lives under no such obligations to limit themselves as a Sorceror does.

At level twelve a sorceror would have a single spell to choose from. Do they get Flesh To Stone? Greater Heroism? Disintegrate? Acid Cloud? What do they get?

If all bosses had their immunities stripped it wouldn't make that much difference... but with immunities it very much makes a difference. Far more so than the wizard who can simply swap out a spell and be even more effective than he was prior.

Oblongmana
01-05-2009, 12:42 AM
From http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1991489&postcount=18 we have the following query:

And what, precisely, makes me a troll. Do tell.

From this current thread, we have this piece of evidence:


You try very hard to be clever Angelus. Fortunately for us both, you're not.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) we find:

...someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Addendum: This is merely one example amongst a number. But as you requested preciseness, only one example has been given

Artistik
01-05-2009, 01:47 AM
From http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1991489&postcount=18 we have the following query:


From this current thread, we have this piece of evidence:


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) we find:


Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Addendum: This is merely one example amongst a number. But as you requested preciseness, only one example has been given


So if I'm to understand this correctly...

He attacks me personally.

That's alright.

I say something back and that makes ME a troll.


Translation: The people who have been trolling the forums for ages and have their own little clique can say and so as they please.

**** off the forum hierarchy and YOU are a troll.

Right.

Borror0
01-05-2009, 02:18 AM
Translation: The people who have been trolling the forums for ages and have their own little clique can say and so as they please.
You are aware that Oblongmana has 30 posts total, right? Cliques? Hierarchy?

Oblongmana
01-05-2009, 02:57 AM
I'll start with what you stated at the end of your post. As Borror0 noted, I've made a total of 30 posts here. In fact, I've only been guilded for about a month or so. I'm not part of any forum hierarchy, nor any forum clique. I'm just presenting what facts I can ascertain.

Now, to the body of your post.


So if I'm to understand this correctly...

He attacks me personally.

That's alright.

I say something back and that makes ME a troll.

As you have made the traditional "He started it" argument, we will examine the first post of this thread. Please note, that this is the FIRST post of the thread.


You can muck about on the pre-reqs and the numbers if you like, we're going for general theme. Some of you are too ridiculously stupid and short sighted to read this part, but I'm putting it here anyway. If you don't like the thematic aspects, say so and explain why. If your trouble is with numbers, can it, those can always be adjusted for balance later...


The important part is highlight in red. In this, you have directed insults (without care for aim) out into the wider community. The manner in which you have phrased this is clearly intended to incite emotional response (Refer to the previously posted definition of trolling). Were it not it, would have been phrased much more diplomatically (Perhaps "Unfortunately some may skip over this part, but I'll post it anyway").
Followed up by this, also in the first post of this thread:



Naturally some troll (who will accuse me of being a troll) will do everything they can to attack the numbers while ignoring anything thematic. Sometimes you wish you could reach through the internet and slap the ever living....


This is similar to the situation in which someone says "Not to be racist, but.." and proceeds to make some sort of racist comment. What you've done is attempt to throw a bit of a Red Herring up here, and state that anyone who disagrees with your suggestion is a troll. Incidentally, being that this is a Development forum, the numbers are free to be discussed, and will be discussed. Pre-emptively calling someone who scrutinises the numbers a troll is not in the spirit of this section of these forums.


Now perhaps my chronology is out of order, but you have pointed out that "He" attacked first. However, your attacks began from the first post. If you wish to make the "He started it" argument, please provide evidence for us to consider.

esoitl
01-05-2009, 02:59 AM
Ahhh, so that's what that was about. You don't really respond to the things I say... you just start accusing me of being someone you don't like?

Uh huh.

Allow me to ponder on why this game is dying as rapidly as it is.

I'll wager it's because you aren't a developer *shrug*

No offense... you have some interesting flavour going on for sure but I don't really feel there is much flavour tie to the Sorceror class personally.

It kind of seems like you just took certain ideas out of Tome and Blood and pasted them together into 'interesting' prestige enhancements and labelled it Sorceror prestige because you feel they needed a boost when they likely will not.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-05-2009, 05:25 AM
Ahhh, so that's what that was about. You don't really respond to the things I say... you just start accusing me of being someone you don't like?

Uh huh.

Allow me to ponder on why this game is dying as rapidly as it is.

Wait...you joined in January 2009, and don't like someone who left before you joined? That doesn't quite add up.

And I did respond to exactly what you said. The thought that you might be dingo just changed "he" to "you" in my sentances.


Oh, and I read his post about being afraid of Sorcerors...


Based on what you guys are saying now about the Devs having to give bosses 200k hp and blanket specifically to COUNTER Magic users...and in particular the sorceror.... seems kind of prophetic at this point.

You hate him...but keep trying to say his ideas were great... lol


I don't think he was trying to argue that at all, only they they would be dwarfed in desirability. Which they were.

And your comments about "They weren't!" only says that the devs took steps to PREVENT the very thing Dingo was concerned with. The Devs recognized the exact same problem.

However, the blanket immunities and massive hitpoints are far more of a "nerf" to sorcs than to Wizards, as it is much easier for Wizards to move to buffing and the like should the need arise than for Sorcs to unless pre-built that way.

Are we even playing the same game?

Nope, don't know what you are playing. Sorcs and Wizards each have their place in end game. Both have moments where they shine, that was true at the time he was whining about Wizards, and true now. Nothing about with Dingo said was particularily insightful or accurate.

Angelus_dead
01-05-2009, 07:53 AM
Any red name in the game.

Haste.

If at the start of a quest neither a sorceror nor a wizard has haste (or most any buffing spell in the game), the Wizard can swap out another spell and replace it with haste.

And you can say Well DRR the Sorceror WILL have haste, because all sorcerors get haste! (Yes, I've leveled up to the point where I understand the necessity of haste for casters.) The Wizard lives under no such obligations to limit themselves as a Sorceror does.
There it is again. Nobody with even a poor knowledge of DDO gameplay would try to give an example based on a wizard without Haste.

In theory, if DDO had a lot more kinds of monsters and a lot more different spells, then you might be right. In reality there are only a few types of monsters and a few good spells, and you are wrong.


At level twelve a sorceror would have a single spell to choose from. Do they get Flesh To Stone? Greater Heroism? Disintegrate? Acid Cloud? What do they get?
Yeah, that can be a tough choice. And then he goes up a few levels and learns the others.

If there were more than 2 good and 2 marginal spells at that level, then the sorcerer's fewer slots and inflexibility could be a real downside. But as usual, that applies to some imaginary game that's got many more spells than DDO does.


If all bosses had their immunities stripped it wouldn't make that much difference... but with immunities it very much makes a difference. Far more so than the wizard who can simply swap out a spell and be even more effective than he was prior.
No, no it does not. If you try to prove it with a concrete example including the name of a monster and the names of the spells to which he is immune or not, you'll see how that's untrue.

Maybe if DDO included spells like Fly, Greater Invisibility, Blink, Mirror Image, Polymorph, Wraithstrike, Nightstalker Transformation, Black Tentacles, Mental Pinnacle, Calm Emotions, Incorporeal Nova, and Major Image, then having a longer menu of spells would be a bigger advantage. But that would be some changed future version of DDO, not the game that exists today.

With the fairly short list of useful arcane spells now, the sorcerer's limitations are only an occasional and minor drawback.


You try very hard to be clever Angelus. Fortunately for us both, you're not.
There's no reason for me to respond to that, because if a person is fooled by your antics it indicates I shouldn't value his opinion.

Angelus_dead
01-05-2009, 08:02 AM
Nope, don't know what you are playing. Sorcs and Wizards each have their place in end game. Both have moments where they shine, that was true at the time he was whining about Wizards, and true now.
No, wizards almost never perform better than a sorcerer at level 16, and on those few occasions when they do, it's only by a small amount that doesn't compensate for the 30-40% weakness the rest of the time.

The DDO designers need to do something to change this; I hope they do it by adding enough helpful spells so that a sorcerer character always wishes he had more slots, instead of being able to sit back and say "plenty for this level".

But instead, maybe they'll balance it in some other way, like by giving wizards better capstones and specialties than sorcs get. If the sorc capstone doesn't include +2 cha, that will suggest they're trying to balance with better enhancements.

DoctorWhofan
01-05-2009, 08:06 AM
Actually, these ARE balanced. You guys just aren't reading what I wrote.

I stopped reading here. OMG! Are you serious? Yeah, you ARE trolling and instagating what justabout every authority ( I may not like A_D, but he is right when it comes to rules) on the subject.

Geez dude! Are you asking for trouble?

DoctorWhofan
01-05-2009, 08:14 AM
I figured this out the first time the " new player " posted.


Common guys, tell me NONE of you saw this coming???


IT'S DINGO123!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL!!! nice!

frugal_gourmet
01-05-2009, 10:51 AM
This is tangential, but my sorcerer does truly have that nagging feeling sometimes that it'd be nice to change out a few spells for a quest. For instance, there're certain quests where fire shield rocks and certain ones where it is entirely useless. Would be nice to free that one up for something utilitarian like dimension door or stoneskin.

I find it's pretty much expected that my sorc have PK, wall of fire, and solid fog.

I do have a secret urge to try a wizard.

Artistik
01-05-2009, 11:43 AM
I stopped reading here. OMG! Are you serious? Yeah, you ARE trolling and instagating what justabout every authority ( I may not like A_D, but he is right when it comes to rules) on the subject.

Geez dude! Are you asking for trouble?



And no. A Under Score G might be a lot of things, but game designer he is not.

First, as I said in the beginning paragraph... emphasized even... numbers can be balanced as fit. This of course, was completely ignored.

But even if you take the numbers as is... they aren't THAT overpowering.

The Spirit Breaker, for example, is a huge drain on feats while giving benefits to only two schools of magic, two (point five) special abilities, and one skill.

The rogue's assassinate ability is usable at will, isn't subject to spell resistance, and can kill instantly. The ability the spirit breaker possesses is more akin to phantasmal killer in that it requires TWO saves vs. the assassinate abilities one.

Which is the superior spell? Phantasmal Killer, or Finger of Death? I'm willing to suggest finger of death is more bang for your buck.

Even then the rogue's assassinate ability requires no feat investment whatsoever, it's enhancement investment is roughly equal... and it provides a special ability (ala poisons) that can be used, and effectively, five times per rest... this in addition to multiple skill bonuses, multiple physical damage bonuses, and a bonus to fortitude saves.

Even so, the purpose of the three provided PrEs was to provide a basis for pursuing a THEME that wouldn't step on the toes of Wizards... which none of these do, while simultaneously not be the same blow stuff up PrE that we're likely going tog et from Eladrin. Not hard numbers. Which the great and ignorant... tragically... unbelievably...and forewarned... ignorant masses latched onto.

Aspenor
01-05-2009, 11:53 AM
Even so, the purpose of the three provided PrEs was to provide a basis for pursuing a THEME that wouldn't step on the toes of Wizards... which none of these do, while simultaneously not be the same blow stuff up PrE that we're likely going tog et from Eladrin. Not hard numbers. Which the great and ignorant... tragically... unbelievably...and forewarned... ignorant masses latched onto.



In that case you shouldn't have posted anything except the themes, because the themes themselves are fine.

Some of what is contained in each is fine, but not all. Most of them are too powerful.

If you noticed, this is the development forums, where any post with hard numbers is going to be nitpicked to the moon and back. It is inevitable. It's not trolling, it's what occurs in the development forums. You made the mistake of expecting us to conform to your rules for posting.

You're not the boss of me.

Perhaps that's too complicated for you to understand.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-05-2009, 12:15 PM
Instigating. And you're more of an instigator than I am. You're a cheerleader for trolls and the like. OH EM GEE, I JUST LUV T WHEN YUR SAY MEEN THINGZ.

Dude, when you call Drwhofan a troll you really have lost it.


But again, that was all too terribly complex.

You aren't an instigator but you insult people in every post? You might wish to reexamine either your language or self assess again if you are an instigator.

Angelus_dead
01-05-2009, 12:32 PM
And no. A Under Score G might be a lot of things, but game designer he is not.
You might be surprised about what software releases credit me. But I prefer not to argue from authority: if I can't convince someone through logic, then I probably don't care whether he believes me or not. (That might be wishful thinking considering some producers with budget-power, but I assume they're too busy with other projects to give full attention)


First, as I said in the beginning paragraph... emphasized even... numbers can be balanced as fit. This of course, was completely ignored.
Tip: If you don't want numbers to be judged seriously, then don't give numbers. For example instead of +20% Necromancy damage, you'd just say +X% damage or ~20% more damageand leave the reader to fill in whatever he thinks is right.

But if you do suggest concrete numbers, don't overreact when the numbers are inspected.


The rogue's assassinate ability is usable at will, isn't subject to spell resistance, and can kill instantly. The ability the spirit breaker possesses is more akin to phantasmal killer in that it requires TWO saves vs. the assassinate abilities one.
It would take quite a while to teach all the DDO mechanics you'd need to know to accurately judge statements like that, and since you haven't claimed to have ever played a rogue with Assassinate, it doesn't seem worth the time.


Which is the superior spell? Phantasmal Killer, or Finger of Death? I'm willing to suggest finger of death is more bang for your buck.
But if Phantasmal Killer:
1. cost no mana
2. Had +4 DC
3. Also CCed the creature between the first and second save for as long as you like

then that'd be quite a different story.

Artistik
01-05-2009, 01:02 PM
But if Phantasmal Killer:
1. cost no mana
2. Had +4 DC
3. Also CCed the creature between the first and second save for as long as you like

then that'd be quite a different story.

A phantasmal killer that also cost four feats, and a host of enhancement points. A phantsmal killer that fills its target with an unyielding desire to kill the caster on a failed fortitude save. Compared to Way of the Assassin? A dualwielding rogue I expect gets two attempts, once for each blade. This dramatically increases his chances of landing his no mana Finger of Death.


Face it, Way of the Assassins Assassinate ability is very compable, if not a bit superior, to the Spirit Breaker's ability in terms of death effect. It also causes perma suggestion on the target.. but it also costs a ridiculous amount in investment.

Shaamis
01-05-2009, 01:04 PM
You can muck about on the pre-reqs and the numbers if you like, we're going for general theme.

On genearl theme, I'd say they are possible, but the devil is in the details. The details (numbers) will determine if they are balanced.

Also, the amount of development time will be great, but if the numbers arent balanced, or underpowered, it will all be for nothing. If the numbers prove to be too powerful/beneficial, it will cause other average classes to scream for benefits equal to these.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I like the different themes though. The choices from the PnP books are very drastic in comparison from the standard Sorc, hence the additional development time. I only wish these had a chance of making it into DDO before the next three years.

I say three years, because there are a LOT of things people have been clamoring about since beta, that should already be in the game, and it would take that long to get those in the game before they would consider dev time on something with a small sample of the DDO population (those who play Sorcs) choosing instead to develop something all characters would use (Guild features for example)

Artistik
01-05-2009, 01:10 PM
On genearl theme, I'd say they are possible, but the devil is in the details. The details (numbers) will determine if they are balanced.

Also, the amount of development time will be great, but if the numbers arent balanced, or underpowered, it will all be for nothing. If the numbers prove to be too powerful/beneficial, it will cause other average classes to scream for benefits equal to these.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I like the different themes though. The choices from the PnP books are very drastic in comparison from the standard Sorc, hence the additional development time. I only wish these had a chance of making it into DDO before the next three years.

I say three years, because there are a LOT of things people have been clamoring about since beta, that should already be in the game, and it would take that long to get those in the game before they would consider dev time on something with a small sample of the DDO population (those who play Sorcs) choosing instead to develop something all characters would use (Guild features for example)


It's not so much that I want the Devs to involve THOSE PrEs so much as I would like the Devs to give Sorcs PrEs that didn't pidgeonhole them.