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Eladrin
12-11-2008, 11:45 AM
Due to everyone's amazing decoding abilities, you get another preview this week.

The Knight of the Chalice knows what it likes, and more to the point, knows what it doesn't like. Evil outsiders (especially demons and other chaotic evil outsiders). They get into everything. Worse than roaches if you ask me.

The Knight is light on activated abilities, focusing instead on a strong set of passive bonuses when fighting their chosen foe.

Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Paladin Level 6, Paladin Courage of Good I, Paladin Energy of the Templar I, Paladin Extra Smite Evil II, and any one of: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I, Paladin Divine Might I, or Paladin Exalted Smite I.
Benefit: You are devoted to fighting demons and other evil outsiders, driving them from Eberron forever. Your maximum number of Smites is increased by one, your anti-fear aura is improved, and you have +1 to attack Evil Outsiders and deal 1d6 additional damage with melee and unarmed attacks against them. You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +2 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by Evil Outsiders.

Despite their anti-demon focus, the Knights of the Chalice aren't that picky when it comes to killing Evil Outsiders...

Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Paladin Level 12, Paladin Knight of the Chalice I, Paladin Courage of Good II, Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Benefit: You are devoted to fighting demons and other evil outsiders, driving them from Eberron forever. Your maximum number of Smites is increased by one, your anti-fear aura is improved, and you now have +2 to attack Evil Outsiders and deal 2d6 additional damage with melee and unarmed attacks against them, replacing your earlier bonuses. You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +3 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by Evil Outsiders. You also gain the ability to Censure Demons.

Knight of the Chalice II: Censure Demons
Benefit: You may expend a turn undead attempt to stun a targeted demon or other Chaotic Evil outsider. A successful Will save DC: 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Modifier negates this effect. The target gains repeated saves to break free of this effect. Non-Chaotic Evil outsiders are unaffected by this ability.

...but they are better trained at taking out demons.

Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Paladin Level 18, Paladin Knight of the Chalice II, any Paladin Faith II enhancement
Benefit: You are devoted to fighting demons and other evil outsiders, driving them from Eberron forever. Your maximum number of Smites is increased by one, your anti-fear aura is improved, and you now have +4 to attack Evil Outsiders and deal 4d6 additional damage with melee and unarmed attacks against them, replacing your earlier bonuses. You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +4 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by Evil Outsiders.

Who wants a free Greater Evil Outsider Bane added to all of their weapons? What if I told you that it stacks with an actual Greater Evil Outsider Bane enchantment?

Tolero
12-11-2008, 12:31 PM
*steps on some infernal roaches* They're everywhere I tell ya!

DaveyCrockett
12-11-2008, 12:36 PM
This one's a bit odd. It's like giving Paladins a FE on steroids, but only one.
Meanwhile other PrE's work across the board, and aren't so situational.

I do think this will make me cringe less when a Paladin joins the Shroud. :)

Hobgoblin
12-11-2008, 12:36 PM
nice!! i might actually roll a pally now!!

EKKM
12-11-2008, 12:38 PM
Interesting PrE follows the PnP theme fairly closely as I recall. Given that a lot of end game mobs are evil outsiders this PrE will see some use there, just not sure initially about levels 6-12 due to liomited "favoured opponents".

Bonuses don't seem as good as frenzied beserker or kensai, but the entrance requirements are not as steep either.

First impression - looks good.

Jeffywan
12-11-2008, 12:40 PM
I am rolling up a Palidan :). I can't wait for Mod 9. Thanks for all the hard work, it keeps the game entertaining and makes me want to explore some new classes. Please give us more to decode so we can get more sneak peaks :D

Leyoni
12-11-2008, 12:40 PM
Seems vary narrow in focus whereas fighter, ranger and barbarian PrEs are much broader in scope. Because paladins are widely perceived as lacking damage output for general combat this essentially means carrying them until they get to L18 so that they can become evil outsider killing machines.

Not sure that this is entirely helpful.

If the L6 and L12 enhancements could be made broader it would be more beneficial and also more appropriate given current game content. A general boost vs evil at L6 maybe expanding to chaotic evil at L12 and culminating in evil outsider at L18 might be more beneficial and make paladins more on par with the DPS (and thus in-game value) of other melee oriented characters.

hu-flung-pu
12-11-2008, 12:42 PM
Does seek eternal rest boost Censure Demons?

Edit: Frothing at the mouth with some gurgling noises.

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 12:42 PM
Seems vary narrow in focus whereas fighter, ranger and barbarian PrEs are much broader in scope. Because paladins are widely perceived as lacking damage output for general combat this essentially means carrying them until they get to L18 so that they can become evil outsider killing machines.

Not sure that this is entirely helpful.

If the L6 and L12 enhancements could be made broader it would be more beneficial and also more appropriate given current game content. A general boost vs evil at L6 maybe expanding to chaotic evil at L12 and culminating in evil outsider at L18 might be more beneficial and make paladins more on par with the DPS (and thus in-game value) of other melee oriented characters.

eh, but it follows the flavor of the PnP class very well so...

maybe we were all hoping they would roid out pallys too much? I think it's kinda nice. not amazing but nice. and flavorful and there's not enough of that around here.

Dungnmaster001
12-11-2008, 12:45 PM
I'm just glad there's not an overabundance of clickies in this one. I like passive bonuses.

EKKM
12-11-2008, 12:46 PM
I have a concern that if another pally PrE is broader in scope that it may relegate this one to the same fate as the deepwood sniper.

That said three extra smites and impoved aura for 8 AP is pretty good.

Gratch
12-11-2008, 12:46 PM
I guess giving a bonus to crit range or mult vs. a single enemy type at the top tier would have been overbalancing or tough to code. Looks pretty good and should be useful against the Mod 9 mobs I'd guess.

So Mod 9 has specialty enhancements for Fighter/Barb/Ranger/Paly/Rogue from 6-18. Caster/Clerics/Bards and Monks will get theirs at a later Mod? Or are the monk way-of's considered to be their specialty?

hu-flung-pu
12-11-2008, 12:48 PM
I have a concern that if another pally PrE is broader in scope that it may relegate this one to the same fate as the deepwood sniper.

That said three extra smites and impoved aura for 8 AP is pretty good.

When they've come out and basically flat out told us, that Mod 9 will be focusing entirely on evil outsiders, I can live with the fact that I'll be a mod 9 specialist.

Gum
12-11-2008, 12:48 PM
Due to everyone's amazing decoding abilities, you get another preview this week.

The Knight of the Chalice knows what it likes, and more to the point, knows what it doesn't like. Evil outsiders (especially demons and other chaotic evil outsiders). They get into everything. Worse than roaches if you ask me.

The Knight is light on activated abilities, focusing instead on a strong set of passive bonuses when fighting their chosen foe.

Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Paladin Level 6, Paladin Courage of Good I, Paladin Energy of the Templar I, Paladin Extra Smite Evil II, and any one of: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I, Paladin Divine Might I, or Paladin Exalted Smite I.
Benefit: You are devoted to fighting demons and other evil outsiders, driving them from Eberron forever. Your maximum number of Smites is increased by one, your anti-fear aura is improved, and you have +1 to attack Evil Outsiders and deal 1d6 additional damage with melee and unarmed attacks against them. You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +2 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by Evil Outsiders.

Despite their anti-demon focus, the Knights of the Chalice aren't that picky when it comes to killing Evil Outsiders...

Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Paladin Level 12, Paladin Knight of the Chalice I, Paladin Courage of Good II, Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Benefit: You are devoted to fighting demons and other evil outsiders, driving them from Eberron forever. Your maximum number of Smites is increased by one, your anti-fear aura is improved, and you now have +2 to attack Evil Outsiders and deal 2d6 additional damage with melee and unarmed attacks against them, replacing your earlier bonuses. You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +3 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by Evil Outsiders. You also gain the ability to Censure Demons.

Knight of the Chalice II: Censure Demons
Benefit: You may expend a turn undead attempt to stun a targeted demon or other Chaotic Evil outsider. A successful Will save DC: 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Modifier negates this effect. The target gains repeated saves to break free of this effect. Non-Chaotic Evil outsiders are unaffected by this ability.

...but they are better trained at taking out demons.

Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Paladin Level 18, Paladin Knight of the Chalice II, any Paladin Faith II enhancement
Benefit: You are devoted to fighting demons and other evil outsiders, driving them from Eberron forever. Your maximum number of Smites is increased by one, your anti-fear aura is improved, and you now have +4 to attack Evil Outsiders and deal 4d6 additional damage with melee and unarmed attacks against them, replacing your earlier bonuses. You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +4 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by Evil Outsiders.

Who wants a free Greater Evil Outsider Bane added to all of their weapons? What if I told you that it stacks with an actual Greater Evil Outsider Bane enchantment?


You my friend just made Mr. Gumlaw a very, very happy Warforged! ( o )( o ) Hjite!

Aeneas
12-11-2008, 12:52 PM
I think it's a neat PrE. My only suggestion would be perhaps to extend it to neutral outsiders (if you're not gonna choose a side then you're not on mine and therefore on the wrong one) so that lower level outsiders like mephits could be included.

Aelian
12-11-2008, 12:54 PM
Two thumbs up on this one.

EKKM
12-11-2008, 12:54 PM
When they've come out and basically flat out told us, that Mod 9 will be focusing entirely on evil outsiders, I can live with the fact that I'll be a mod 9 specialist.

I understand that. I guess the fact that all the requirements are enhancment driven, this PrE could be taken as you approach the later levels simply by respecing your enhancments. I'm not sure I agree with that, ewile it does allow for greater flexibility, alot of the other PrEs have feats for requirements which wither preclude, or makes more difficult, this type of PrE swapping.

Demoyn
12-11-2008, 12:55 PM
Hmm... I have a level 11 drow paladin sitting around collecting dust. I may actually brush him off farther down the road for this.

I agree that it would be better if it had some general bonuses instead of a full focus on outsiders, but at least they'll be able to get into high level raids more now!

Ilundel
12-11-2008, 12:56 PM
I agree - Paladin's PrE's seem way too specific to types of monsters while everyone elses are more broad. This is some nice Flavor, but why not make these PrE's based on enhancing CURRENT abilities - IE - one that boosts your aura's, one that boosts your smiting ability and one that boosts.. well something else that I can't think of right now ;)

BTW, Eladrin and developpers, I love the work you are doing and all the Pally love you have given us so far... Just wondering why you are specifically narrowing the effect of the Paladin PrE's to specific type of mobs ;)

maddmatt70
12-11-2008, 12:57 PM
I can't wait for the all paladin groups taking on the next raid boss. Perhaps we will let an arcane or cleric into our party, but everybody else would bring down our dps so no thanks.

Ministry
12-11-2008, 12:57 PM
Happy Happy Joy Joy!

My Level 16 Paladin (pure paladin) just grinned.

:cool:

And ya... Eladrin, we pretty much assumed it would stack... or sure hoped so.

:)

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 12:57 PM
It's not bad. I don't think I'd take it on any character, but it's not bad. Seems just a taaad on the weak side.

Maybe add a few other bonuses to it... like immunity to being banished, dimension anchor as a clicky to stop devils from teleporting at will.

Those kinds of abilities might give it more flavor and be a little more useful.

Solmage
12-11-2008, 12:58 PM
I have to agree this is an extremely narrowly focused PrC, but it is rather powerful. Combined with divine might III, dual smite evils, divine sacrifices and zeal, I can see my paladin becoming really scary when in DPS mode vs evil outsiders .. but I am a bit concerned about his end-boss performance against anything else.

But it looks very interesting at least.

By the way, wondering if someone could answer a question for me, does the holy sword spell create swords that bypass named devil DR? Or just named demons?

maddmatt70
12-11-2008, 01:02 PM
Seems vary narrow in focus whereas fighter, ranger and barbarian PrEs are much broader in scope. Because paladins are widely perceived as lacking damage output for general combat this essentially means carrying them until they get to L18 so that they can become evil outsider killing machines.

Not sure that this is entirely helpful.
.

My plan is if its an evil outsider mod I will have this pre and if its an undead mod I will have hunter of the dead and I may even switch between pre during a mod if that is at all feasible and we have to fight both types.

Venar
12-11-2008, 01:11 PM
Well, technically, paladins are already equiped for undeads (or at least they can). so that makes them 2 tricks poneys.

I think the cost is too steep. Because the pre-reqs are **** enhancement, so basically making it costly (fear aura and energy of templar???)

Mhykke
12-11-2008, 01:12 PM
I think it's pretty good, but not a fan of the Faith II prereq for 3rd tier.

Leyoni
12-11-2008, 01:13 PM
eh, but it follows the flavor of the PnP class very well so...

maybe we were all hoping they would roid out pallys too much? I think it's kinda nice. not amazing but nice. and flavorful and there's not enough of that around here.

I'm not sure that starting with a bigger bonus against evil isn't still within the flavor. There was comment on Evil outsiders (especially demons and other chaotic evil outsiders).

Start with bonus against evil that holds thru all content, bump with chaotic evil that holds thru all content, cap with chaotic evil outsiders that is great for end content but not much else.

Note that current content is already run routinely by L14-16 characters so a L18 enhancement for current content doesn't mean so much. A minor adjustment to go with "evil" then "chaotic evil" will still get the same effect against current end game content for these L14-16 characters and leaves the L18 enhancement as a great tease for future content (which, btw, has previously been said will vear away from the current emphasis on demons).

The result is somewhere in between having a nearly useless PrE at L6 and the paladin on 'roids. :) It still won't be on par with barbarian, fighter and ranger PrEs for damage but it won't be so far behind that it leaves paladins still feeling like they've been carried thru the first 18 levels.

MrCow
12-11-2008, 01:14 PM
I think it's pretty good, but not a fan of the Faith II prereq for 3rd tier.

For the same 6 AP cost, would you rather it be Aura of Courage III and Energy of the Templar III? :p

At least there are a decent amount of options and benefits to choose from in the faiths.

Leyoni
12-11-2008, 01:16 PM
My plan is if its an evil outsider mod I will have this pre and if its an undead mod I will have hunter of the dead and I may even switch between pre during a mod if that is at all feasible and we have to fight both types.

Hunter of the dead will actually have more utility for most game content while a paladin waits on hitting L18. I can see some players taking Knight of the Chalice preping for what is currently end game content as a resetting of enhancements.

And, I know some players have the plat to reset enhancements routinely. But it seems like a lot of work to me.

Zenako
12-11-2008, 01:18 PM
Looks very nice (pure Paly here)...

Very much like them being passive abilities...palys aready have too many clickies in my mind...

Will be real interesting to see how the Censure Demon plays out. DC36 (for my Paly) will saves will hopefully not be made too often. Stuns the demon, hopefully locking it in place for a time (instead of teleporting nonstop!!). Stunned demon should quickly be a dead demon. That will be nice.

Stacking the damage...again nice and since almost all the foes of consequence in high end quests are gonna be evil outsiders the limitation is not really all that much of one.

The relatively low AP cost is also nice and with it being entirely Enhancement driven, allows any Paly who wants to take up the Cause! with a mimimum of effort.

All these new PrC/PrE will drive the character builder/enhancement builder guys bonkers for the next few months...

Borror0
12-11-2008, 01:21 PM
Strange PrE.

Leyoni
12-11-2008, 01:23 PM
It's not bad. I don't think I'd take it on any character, but it's not bad. Seems just a taaad on the weak side.

That's my point. Because it is so narrow focused many players might respond, "I don't think I'd take it on any character, but it's not bad."

BTW, I do realize that there have been some "I <3 U Turbine!" posts already. But when you look at it from the powergamer, end-game, POV (which just today I was reminded is the only POV that really counts :() I'm not sure it really is going to get all that much love from the players.

OTOH, that is what is good about these threads. People have a chance to post ideas on how the enhancment would work and how it would make the character better.

The real test will be to see if there are a bunch of build threads that come up based around this. If so it means the powergamers have bought into it (or the powergamers will rip the build to shreads showing that the love just isn't there).

Ustice
12-11-2008, 01:28 PM
Who wants a free Greater Evil Outsider Bane added to all of their weapons? What if I told you that it stacks with an actual Greater Evil Outsider Bane enchantment?

I'd buy THAT for a dollar! ;)

Laith
12-11-2008, 01:32 PM
just want to thank you again for setting up this slow leak of previews.
feel free to keep it up :)

Gum
12-11-2008, 01:34 PM
I realize everyone is gonna see it differently, but man this has me foaming at the mouth. hehe. I mean at level 13 *pure WF pally here* I have 7 smite evils, that do some serious damage. Next level I'm gonna have access to the final tier of exalted smite which increase the crit multiplier by 2, making a greatsword times 4 to damage, and increasing my crit range from as is to 16-20. I've got the divine sacrifice which seems to be way underrated, man it does good DPS and it has a quick cooldown. Now your telling me I'm gonna get 3 more smites per rest and all these Lawfull goodness goodies against the evil doers. I'm practically drooling here. Nice move in my opinion. Let no one say the Paladin can't do very respectable DPS. Also, I like the whole demon/devil slayer thing. Makes me feel very lawful and good! I love Paladins, I love Warforged, and I love you Turbine! Merry Christmas to all! Hjite! ( o )( o )

Ustice
12-11-2008, 01:35 PM
I'd suggest that you change the requirement to the Turn Undead ability and a +6 BAB. This would be nice for Clerics as well, and would fit thematically.

Angelus_dead
12-11-2008, 01:37 PM
Due to everyone's amazing decoding abilities, you get another preview this week.
Lazy! You really should have at least deleted 3/4s of the letters to make it more fun...

Yshkabibble
12-11-2008, 01:42 PM
I think i would be best to just make it work against Evil Outsiders. Restricting it to Chaotic Evil Outsiders seems too much.

Laith
12-11-2008, 01:42 PM
Lazy! You really should have at least deleted 3/4s of the letters to make it more fun...haha, i have to agree.
it's really fun watching everybody scramble over decoding forum puzzles.

Forum puzzles have been VERY well received. It's strange too... initially, they probably were just an excuse to be able to slip out information, but making it not count as blabbing because the solutions were "player speculation".

Laith
12-11-2008, 01:44 PM
nm

Laith
12-11-2008, 01:46 PM
nm

bigpun
12-11-2008, 01:49 PM
so how many chaotic evil outsiders/demons do we currently have in this game to fight (and not a named boss) ?

Angelus_dead
12-11-2008, 01:49 PM
Benefit: You are devoted to fighting demons and other evil outsiders, driving them from Eberron forever. Your maximum number of Smites is increased by one, your anti-fear aura is improved
What does it mean that the "anti-fear aura is improved"?

I am afraid that means that the saving-throw bonus is increased, and that's just not good enough. You see, far too many non-paladin players have Will saves such that they only fail fear saves on a natural 1 (especially if a generic paladin is in range). Yet in many battles, it is still important for them to use a fear-immunity buff, because the consequences of fear combined with a fairly high rate of attempting saves means 5% failure is still a huge risk.

For those characters, a higher anti-fear bonus from a paladin does them exactly no good, meaning that this specialty feature has failed at the stated task of actually improving the aura.

If you want an anti-fear bonus that is worthwhile enough to mention, then it needs to include something beyond just increased saves, such as:
Nearby allies gain a 2nd save attempt on a failed fear save (similar to Slippery Mind)
Allies don't necessarily auto-fail fear saves on a natural 1
Automatically grant nearby allies another save vs existing fear effects, once per 10 seconds.
Allies who fail against Fear suffer a lesser effect: fear->shaken, despair->fear, shaken->nothing, PK->despair.
Nearby allies are 100% immune to Fear. (Probably that would make sense for tier3)


Given how easy it is for DDO characters to obtain total fear-immunity, the Knight of the Chalice's anti-fear bonus needs to be pretty good for it to be worth anything in gameplay.

Solmage
12-11-2008, 01:53 PM
It's not bad. I don't think I'd take it on any character, but it's not bad. Seems just a taaad on the weak side.

Maybe add a few other bonuses to it... like immunity to being banished, dimension anchor as a clicky to stop devils from teleporting at will.

Those kinds of abilities might give it more flavor and be a little more useful.

Dimensional anchor aura would be a fun little enhancement to this PrC. Or an Aura of banishment, that would lower the creatures DC vs banishment in the presence of a paladin's aura.

I think if it's going to be that narrow a focus, it could stand to have more pizazz and not just straight damage, although straight damage is good :)

I'm still not sure if my pali will take this however. Chances are he'll go for the defensive PrC.. we'll have to see what it is. I just hope it's something that expands the max dex bonus of tower shields so they can provide more AC than silly pajama wearing twigg throwers..

Sem34
12-11-2008, 01:53 PM
Knight of the Chalice II: Censure Demons
Benefit: You may expend a turn undead attempt to stun a targeted demon or other Chaotic Evil outsider. A successful Will save DC: 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Modifier negates this effect. The target gains repeated saves to break free of this effect. Non-Chaotic Evil outsiders are unaffected by this ability.

...but they are better trained at taking out demons.

I really like this PrE alot... but I would rather see this as a AOE (like Sound Burst) would stop the jumping and catch them all... rather then just the one...

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 01:54 PM
so how many chaotic evil outsiders/demons do we currently have in this game to fight (and not a named boss) ?

Ice flensers, Flesh Renders, Fire Reavers...

I'm sure we'll get some more things like mariliths in the new mod, and probably a bunch of other demon types.

Solmage
12-11-2008, 01:58 PM
Given how easy it is for DDO characters to obtain total fear-immunity, the Knight of the Chalice's anti-fear bonus needs to be pretty good for it to be worth anything in gameplay.

Yep, I just saw it as a flavor enhancement (ie pointless, but it kinda made sense to throw it in) But if it's part of the 'balance' calculations ('we're giving them better resistance vs fear!') then yes, it needs to be changed to something remotely useful.

Of course, it's possible mod 9 will have some sort of boss with an Epic Fear that bypasses GHs and other items fear immunity, which would make this of some value depending on the DC used.

On the other hand, if we're adding useful stuff, instead of fear resistance the ability to banish any devil or demon regardless of silly plane alignments back to it's home plane would come in handy in the shroud and other such quests :)

Dexxaan
12-11-2008, 02:07 PM
Meh.

8 AP´s to be able to do extra damage (That personally I can get making good use of existing enhancements), Censure Chaotics one at a time, (anyone know if Mephits are Chaotic?).

I´m thinking for now I´ll save my AP´s and smite/DS these Chaotics with my trustworthy +3 Axiomatic Burst Khopesh of Pure Good.

Instead of +xD6 dmg we should be getting some Puncturing effect every time we hit an Evil Outsider....THAT would level the playing field.......:eek:

dameron
12-11-2008, 02:19 PM
*steps on some infernal roaches* They're everywhere I tell ya!

Shouldn't that be "abysmal roaches"?

Gol
12-11-2008, 02:26 PM
Ranger: +3 Attack, +12 Damage, +3 Saves versus each of 4 favored enemies for 28 APs
Paladin: +4 Attack, +14 Damage (average), +4 Saves versus one type for 14 APs (counting prereqs).

Sure, the Ranger spent twice as many, but it applies to 4 times as many mobs.

Forgive me if I'm not excited about this.

EKKM
12-11-2008, 03:04 PM
Ranger: +3 Attack, +12 Damage, +3 Saves versus each of 4 favored enemies for 28 APs
Paladin: +4 Attack, +14 Damage (average), +4 Saves versus one type for 14 APs (counting prereqs).

Sure, the Ranger spent twice as many, but it applies to 4 times as many mobs.

Forgive me if I'm not excited about this.

Dont forget 3 more smite evils

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 03:07 PM
Ranger: +3 Attack, +12 Damage, +3 Saves versus each of 4 favored enemies for 28 APs
Paladin: +4 Attack, +14 Damage (average), +4 Saves versus one type for 14 APs (counting prereqs).

Sure, the Ranger spent twice as many, but it applies to 4 times as many mobs.

Forgive me if I'm not excited about this.

The 14 damage is also not counted as base damage, and won't be increased with criticals.

I think they'd be better off just adding 4 extra damage at each level to the base damage. That might make for some really fun critcal smites.

Balkas
12-11-2008, 03:09 PM
By the way, wondering if someone could answer a question for me, does the holy sword spell create swords that bypass named devil DR?

Yes.

elraido
12-11-2008, 03:10 PM
I am normally excited for any Paladin mod, but this one is leaving me MEH. Hunter of the Undead sounds much more promising.

Beherit_Baphomar
12-11-2008, 03:13 PM
Ranger: +3 Attack, +12 Damage, +3 Saves versus each of 4 favored enemies for 28 APs
Paladin: +4 Attack, +14 Damage (average), +4 Saves versus one type for 14 APs (counting prereqs).

Sure, the Ranger spent twice as many, but it applies to 4 times as many mobs.

Forgive me if I'm not excited about this.

And lets not even go into Rangers AC, ranger TWF, ranger spells.....

Rangers pop up everywhere nowadays.....I think a good idea would be to nerf crit rage.

Im with Gol on this one. So now I can bring my pally out when fighting a specific foe for the majority of a quest?

.....cool.....

Junts
12-11-2008, 03:14 PM
this is much closer to the original prestige class than the other prestige enhancements so far, eladrin: in fact, its virtually identical.

however, a level 10 knight of the chalice prestige class grants fear immunity with its aura - there is no stated 3rd level ability here (unlike the other prestige classes, which get really, really nice extra 3rd level bonuses). making the courage aura grant fear immunity would both be true to the prestige class originally and still less powerful than 'vorpal strikes on undead with light damage' or 'increase your crit mult by 2' or 'increase your crit range by 1', but it would be rp-appropriate and useful in exactly one raid (hound of xoriat) where evil outsider fear is a big deal.

edit: i see ad mentioned this

angelus, as fear immunity is the capstone ability of the real prestige class, it seems appropriate for tier 3, whereas simple save bonuses at the lower levels im really ok with; the bonus to fear saves from tier 1 is great in say, threnal, etc, when you are first fighting them

its too bad we have so few chaotic evil outsiders, as censure demons will not be that useful outside the subterrane, and my guess is it wont land there.

Coldest
12-11-2008, 03:18 PM
Looking at my heritage, I think I may have some trouble in Stormreach in the months to come.

So be it, you shiny golden haired P888888. Your blood will taste all the more sweeter after a good fight.

nbhs275
12-11-2008, 03:19 PM
What it really needs is a broader ability, that can only be gained through the PeC, and is broader. Like meddle, second save on fort/will saves. Or an Aura that causes the 4d6 damage to evil outsiders whenever they hit the paladin or a nearby party member?

Though we really gotta see the 3rd of these lines to gauge the overall power of this one.

Raegoul
12-11-2008, 03:23 PM
This is great stuff for the Paladin but seriously my Pally cannot afford the action points required for all this great synergy in the enhancements.

nbhs275
12-11-2008, 03:23 PM
And lets not even go into Rangers AC, ranger TWF, ranger spells.....

Rangers pop up everywhere nowadays.....I think a good idea would be to nerf crit rage.

Im with Gol on this one. So now I can bring my pally out when fighting a specific foe for the majority of a quest?

.....cool.....

OOOR, make paladin and ranger levels stack for FE, would be an interesting mix.

Angelus_dead
12-11-2008, 03:27 PM
Yep, I just saw it as a flavor enhancement (ie pointless, but it kinda made sense to throw it in) But if it's part of the 'balance' calculations ('we're giving them better resistance vs fear!') then yes, it needs to be changed to something remotely useful.
Since Chalice's main bonuses will be completely and totally nonfunctioning in many quests, it'd be nice if they also had some concrete bonus that's more universal.

Like, Hunter of the Dead (the other pally spec), is mainly helpful against undead, especially ghosts. But it also has the energy-drain resistance that's useful against Beholders and Suulomades and other things. It has value against more than just 1 enemy class. I'd like Chalice to have something along those lines too.

Granting 100% fear immunity to your nearby teammates wouldn't be overpowered, because they'd still run the risk of briefly getting too far away from you and becoming feared. But giving them anything less than 99% immunity will be almost too little to notice.

Junts
12-11-2008, 03:29 PM
That's my point. Because it is so narrow focused many players might respond, "I don't think I'd take it on any character, but it's not bad."

BTW, I do realize that there have been some "I <3 U Turbine!" posts already. But when you look at it from the powergamer, end-game, POV (which just today I was reminded is the only POV that really counts :() I'm not sure it really is going to get all that much love from the players.

OTOH, that is what is good about these threads. People have a chance to post ideas on how the enhancment would work and how it would make the character better.

The real test will be to see if there are a bunch of build threads that come up based around this. If so it means the powergamers have bought into it (or the powergamers will rip the build to shreads showing that the love just isn't there).


and end-game powergamer pov on it:

right now the only things on which serious dps matters are evil (lawful evil, but still) outsiders:

arraetrikos and suulomades


mod9's raid is in shavarath; evil outsiders are likely

this prestige class gives paladins what they have been being told they lacked: raid boss dps potential

imagine this plus divine might 3 or 4 on a twf zealing paladin bashing down a raidboss.

its actually better dps against them than you're getting f rom a favored enemy ranger! (same attack speed, paladin is getting +4 (greater fiendslaying), +3 (divine favor), +6/8 divine might, and +4d6.

that's more than ranger favored enemy, which we all agree is insane.

William_the_Bat
12-11-2008, 03:31 PM
This seems like a -very- expensive way to get 3 more smite evils and a decent bonus to a very limited creature type.

I love my paladin even though he's a gimp. I like these enhancements for color.. but neither of them will keep my pally from being a gimp.

Really, what is a knight of the chalice going to do at level 6, run threnal west to exhaustion? At least the undead are common.

Right now my pally is specced out to do massive khopesh crits on smites, while still providing a useful aura and the occasional redemption/sovereignty/hands. Having more smites is cool, but the AP cost would make me give up on either the aura or the redemption

Gum
12-11-2008, 03:32 PM
Since Chalice's main bonuses will be completely and totally nonfunctioning in many quests, it'd be nice if they also had some concrete bonus that's more universal.

Like, Hunter of the Dead (the other pally spec), is mainly helpful against undead, especially ghosts. But it also has the energy-drain resistance that's useful against Beholders and Suulomades and other things. It has value against more than just 1 enemy class. I'd like Chalice to have something along those lines too.

Granting 100% fear immunity to your nearby teammates wouldn't be overpowered, because they'd still run the risk of briefly getting too far away from you and becoming feared. But giving them anything less than 99% immunity will be almost too little to notice.

While I am foaming at the mouth at the new sneak peak, I agree with this, and it seems logical/balanced.

Junts
12-11-2008, 03:38 PM
This seems like a -very- expensive way to get 3 more smite evils and a decent bonus to a very limited creature type.

I love my paladin even though he's a gimp. I like these enhancements for color.. but neither of them will keep my pally from being a gimp.

Really, what is a knight of the chalice going to do at level 6, run threnal west to exhaustion? At least the undead are common.

Right now my pally is specced out to do massive khopesh crits on smites, while still providing a useful aura and the occasional redemption/sovereignty/hands. Having more smites is cool, but the AP cost would make me give up on either the aura or the redemption

redemption sucks, make a pos/pos true res clicky and get the ap back.

this will basically consume my level up ap on my paladin (this and bulwark 4 anyway)

Emili
12-11-2008, 03:38 PM
and end-game powergamer pov on it:

right now the only things on which serious dps matters are evil (lawful evil, but still) outsiders:

arraetrikos and suulomades


mod9's raid is in shavarath; evil outsiders are likely

this prestige class gives paladins what they have been being told they lacked: raid boss dps potential

imagine this plus divine might 3 or 4 on a twf zealing paladin bashing down a raidboss.

its actually better dps against them than you're getting f rom a favored enemy ranger! (same attack speed, paladin is getting +4 (greater fiendslaying), +3 (divine favor), +6/8 divine might, and +4d6.

that's more than ranger favored enemy, which we all agree is insane.

Providing the ap's cover all the unlocking enhancements plus the goals.... what I mean by that is it may be hard for many builds to grab the enhancements to unlock divine might and the enhancements for this PrC and have enough ap's to cover them both?

HumanJHawkins
12-11-2008, 03:41 PM
Lol. Barbarian into retirement. Paladin out of retirement. Balance has been restored :D

Junts
12-11-2008, 03:41 PM
Providing the ap's cover all the unlocking enhancements plus the goals.... what I mean by that is it may be hard for many builds to grab the enhancements to unlock divine might and the enhancements for this PrC and have enough ap's to cover them both?



every prestige class has this issue, all of them, an obviously intentional balancing act

this prc has two things i wont buy and two i already do as requistes; its less ap intensive for an offensive paladin than the known alternative is right now, simply becaues we're already buying smite/divine might enhancements.

everyone has a wasted ap enhancement, and the pally ones each have two (remember extra and improved turning are required for hunter of the dead! at least energy of the templar is functional)

ArkoHighStar
12-11-2008, 03:41 PM
I am wondering what kind of synergies these enhacnements will have with the holy avenger

artvan_delet
12-11-2008, 03:45 PM
Let's be clear here. The AP cost is higher than most realize. You must take Courage of Good 1 (1 AP) and Courage of Good 2 (2 AP) to get to the second tier. Are there any paladins who currently spend APs on these now. I doubt it, there are too few APs to begin with. So there's 3 extra APs that I'll bet 95% of paladins wouldnt want to spend.

Then you must have energy of templar 1 and 2. So that's 3 more. How many have these enhancements, 50%.

So I don't consider Level 3 to cost 8 AP. It's at least 11 AP for most, and 14 AP for my paladin. There is certainly some situational hitting power here, so it might be worth it. I don't know yet.

Emili
12-11-2008, 03:47 PM
every prestige class has this issue, all of them, an obviously intentional balancing act

this prc has two things i wont buy and two i already do as requistes; its less ap intensive for an offensive paladin than the known alternative is right now, simply becaues we're already buying smite/divine might enhancements.

everyone has a wasted ap enhancement, and the pally ones each have two (remember extra and improved turning are required for hunter of the dead! at least energy of the templar is functional)

Aye, and I just wanted to point that out to him...

Dexxaan
12-11-2008, 03:49 PM
Let's be clear here. The AP cost is higher than most realize. You must take Courage of Good 1 (1 AP) and Courage of Good 2 (2 AP) to get to the second tier. Are there any paladins who currently spend APs on these now. I doubt it, there are too few APs to begin with. So there's 3 extra APs that I'll bet 95% of paladins wouldnt want to spend.

Then you must have energy of templar 1 and 2. So that's 3 more. How many have these enhancements, 50%.

So I don't consider Level 3 to cost 8 AP. It's at least 11 AP for most, and 14 AP for my paladin.


Yep you are right and I stand corrected.

It´s worse than I thought. Maybe Dwarven Defender or the other one may be a cut above and not an AP muncher.

artvan_delet
12-11-2008, 04:00 PM
every prestige class has this issue, all of them, an obviously intentional balancing act

this prc has two things i wont buy and two i already do as requistes; its less ap intensive for an offensive paladin than the known alternative is right now, simply becaues we're already buying smite/divine might enhancements.

everyone has a wasted ap enhancement, and the pally ones each have two (remember extra and improved turning are required for hunter of the dead! at least energy of the templar is functional)

Is this true for other class PrEs? I looked at the Barb Berzerker PrE and those pre-reqs looked like things barbs would already want. Just curious, any cross-class comparison. Because I'm pretty sure making paladins buy Courage of Good 1 and 2 makes this less attractive.

Lehrman
12-11-2008, 04:00 PM
This one's a bit odd. It's like giving Paladins a FE on steroids, but only one.
Meanwhile other PrE's work across the board, and aren't so situational.

I do think this will make me cringe less when a Paladin joins the Shroud. :)

Actually, its 3favored enemies on crack. LE, NE, and CE outsiders :eek:

Junts
12-11-2008, 04:00 PM
Yep you are right and I stand corrected.

It´s worse than I thought. Maybe Dwarven Defender or the other one may be a cut above and not an AP muncher.

you are incorrect; this is the cheapest prestige enhancement line yet posted: it requires only 6 ap spent in 'things that you wont take' as a dps paladin: up to energy 2 and courage 2 (1+2, 1+2)

for perspective..

hunter of the dead requires extra/improved turning at every tier (1+2+3 each) and also requires some of the loh enhancements (egthings you likely have, like the smite/dm line here: dps paladins have divine might, its not a 'cost').

frenzied berserker and kensai have action boost costs in action boosts no one takes, up to tier 4: a 10 ap added cost.

'energy of the templar' looks like something paladins would want, but, in fact, is completely irrelevant and a dumb way to spend your ap at cap with wiz6 items and shroud cha skills items available.


this is the least-ap demanding enhancement line, by far, and also the one with the least modifiers given (though they are very good, especially for dpsing raid bosses): hunter of the dead, for its cost, gives:

healing amp
ghost touch every weapon
vorpal strikes on undead
light damage on those that fail to be vorpalled
immunity to level drain
sp-less greater restorations you can use on other people who are level drained

this gives:

dps
a stun affect with a reasonable save dc (censure will work on renders etc)
what looks to be basically useless fear-save-increases to the party (unless this changes to immunity at tier 3, its ineffectual)

however, if you are a dps build that extra 6 ap is far from making this class a bad investment.

Mhykke
12-11-2008, 04:02 PM
you are incorrect; this is the cheapest prestige enhancement line yet posted: it requires only 6 ap spent in 'things that you wont take' as a dps paladin: up to energy 2 and courage 2 (1+2, 1+2)



What about Faith II for third tier? By my count, around 11 or 12 ap's spent that I normally wouldn't.

Mellkor
12-11-2008, 04:03 PM
Would be nice if this applied to undead as well.

-JR

Aesop
12-11-2008, 04:04 PM
I like it thematically but it may need more "Juice"

Censure Demons should operate as an AoE centrered on the Pally (like Turn Undead)

Fear Immunity at tier 3 within the Aura as per A_D's suggestion

and maybe the +4 to saves should also be +4 to saves and AC vrs Evil Outsiders.


I think that would be a little happier

Aesop

Junts
12-11-2008, 04:08 PM
What about Faith II for third tier?

ugh, i didn't even see it the first 5 times i read it, i now want to cry and go home, the modifiers of this prestige class are lacking in comparison to others in sheer quantity, and the ap cost isn't less

i was very attracted to this as i wanted it anyway and it looked like i could squeeze it in without dropping functionality, but as it is, my present 'new mod9 enhancement needs' cost me 24 ap: 20 for this, and 4 for bulwark of good 4 (and if there are new extra loh enhancements i havent accounted for those)

thats 8 ap more than I'mgetting, and 1 ap more than what I get if I return to dropping exalted 3/extra smiting 4 (which I have done in the past, i only got them back because a +3 cha tome freed up pally charisma 3, however, a +3 str tome would require me to come back and reinvest in said charisma mod when human versitility goes up to get me to a base 32 str).

+4 tomes could alleviate this, depending on their frequency in the mod9 raid, since they are stated to be coming down the pipe, however, I am quickly reaching disenchantedness with interlayered ap costs, something paladins already suffer significantly from (having to invest 10 ap in extra smites to get exalted smite 3, for example, blows ***), and there are little other enhancements I have now that I would be willing to part with (extra loh is probably next on the chopping block, and thats simply ridiculous). as an intimidate/umd toon I have already given up human versitility! (and am g lad that shroud items make me not need it), even the first tier!

I would never spend 6 ap on unyielding sovreignty, not because I wouldnt like it, becuase I would, but because I can't come close to affording it!


edit: enhancement lines I take, go on, find the non-essential ones

fighter haste boost I (1 ap)
human adapt/ greater adapt (6 ap, tot 7)
bulwark 1-3 (6 ap, tot 13)
divine sac 1 (1 ap, tot 14)
extra smiting 4/exalted 3 (16 ap..absurd, tot 30)
extra lay 1-3 (6 ap, tot 36)
racial toughness 1-3 (6 ap, tot 42)
fighter intim 1 (1 ap, tot 43)
pally cha 1-2 (6 ap, tot 49)
fighter str 1 (2 ap, tot 51)
pally toughness 1-4 (10 ap, tot 61)
divine might 1-2 (3 ap, tot 64)

i could recover up to 11 ap by dropping pally toughness 4, extra smite 4 and exalted 3 (though exalted 3 is a huge dps bonus in practice that i dont want to give up), plus 16 from new levels, is 27 - thats enough to buy what I want from mod9 with 3 to spare, but it requires a pretty big sacrifice and I'm totally boned if I ever need to buy back pally charisma 3

the interplay of paladin enhancement lines is massively crippling; I cannot drop extra s mite 4 without losing exalted 3, and an extra 90 damage on crit smites (which happen 1/4 the time, or that is to say, roughly 2 times per unloading them on a boss)

I pretty much regard ever other enhancement I've taken as sacrosanct as the basis of my build. a +4 cha tome would be necessary to buy divine might 3, though thats what i'd in theory want to spend those last ap on.

Mhykke
12-11-2008, 04:10 PM
ugh, i didn't even see it the first 5 times i read it, i now want to cry and go home

Yeah, tell me about it. That Faith II prereq really knocked the cream out of my cupcake. :(

Angelus_dead
12-11-2008, 04:14 PM
what looks to be basically useless fear-save-increases to the party (unless this changes to immunity at tier 3, its ineffectual)
Even if it does give full immunity, it's still mostly ineffectual, because characters of level 18+ will ALWAYS have Greater Heroism unless the enemy is dispelling, or they were just recently been raised from death.

Junts
12-11-2008, 04:18 PM
Even if it does give full immunity, it's still mostly ineffectual, because characters of level 18+ will ALWAYS have Greater Heroism unless the enemy is dispelling, or they were just recently been raised from death.

Yes.

as i said, fear immunity would be useful in one raid - the hound of xoriat, where it saves the feared-cleric problem when someone is ******** and stands within 2 bodylengths of xyzzy to see a little dog and gets the bees.


thats all that even immunity would do in practice.

personally, I want to add that knights of the chalice get intimidate as a class skill and that an intim bonus vs evil outsiders would not be inappropriate for this prestige class, or an added affect to intimidate (in fact, borror's shaken on intim idea would be an outstanding way to give this prestige class a little more oomph), though I am obviously quite biased as an intim pally hybrid.

Junts
12-11-2008, 04:21 PM
Yeah, tell me about it. That Faith II prereq really knocked the cream out of my cupcake. :(

from my post I can see how I can get this prestige enhancement and how i would overall be better off that way, though dropping a toughness enhancement is basically against my religion.

right now in minos legens, standing 457 with 10 more shroud hp to come (saturday is run 21), and 16 if a +3 con tome ever happens, minus 18 since I'm usually in my intimidate helm (eg, 439)

i coudl afford, even now, to drop paladin toughness 4, though I still think its sacreligious.

having 450 hp and 70 ac and functional dps was this toon's goal, and it's in sight right now :\


i want to add that having a same ap cost as the other enhancements makes this one look unfinished; it simply lacks the design time that plainly went into hte others (its taken directly from the sourcebook, unlike the others, and gives far less effects and bonuses, though one of those bonuses is incredible)

QuantumFX
12-11-2008, 04:47 PM
While the Paladin Courage of Good fits more themeatically, Paladin Resistance of Good would make more sense to make it an attractive PrE.

Also changing Tier III to Paladin Knight of the Chalice II, and any one of: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II-III, Paladin Divine Might II-III, Paladin Exalted Smite II-III, or Paladin Faith II would be better.

Junts
12-11-2008, 04:47 PM
While the Paladin Courage of Good fits more themeatically, Paladin Resistance of Good would make more sense to make it an attractive PrE.

Also changing Tier III to Paladin Knight of the Chalice II, and any one of: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II-III, Paladin Divine Might II-III, Paladin Exalted Smite II-III, or Paladin Faith II would be better.

a ton better, and more in theme with the others where there are several options

Aesop
12-11-2008, 04:52 PM
While the Paladin Courage of Good fits more themeatically, Paladin Resistance of Good would make more sense to make it an attractive PrE.

Also changing Tier III to Paladin Knight of the Chalice II, and any one of: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II-III, Paladin Divine Might II-III, Paladin Exalted Smite II-III, or Paladin Faith II would be better.

can't say I disagree with the logic but I think they were deliberatly using ones that didn't fit in easily to make choices hard... Not sure if its a good thing or bad... then again I supoport a total Enhancement System overhaul


Aesop

Geonis
12-11-2008, 04:57 PM
Who wants a free Greater Evil Outsider Bane added to all of their weapons? What if I told you that it stacks with an actual Greater Evil Outsider Bane enchantment?

I don't know if I'd call 20 APs I wouldn't otherwise use, "free".


Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Cost: 4 Action Points

Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Cost: 2 Action Points

Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Cost: 2 Action Points

Paladin Courage of Good II (3 APs)

Paladin Energy of the Templar II (3 APs)

Paladin Faith II enhancement (6 APs)


4+2+2+3+3+6=20

Again, not what I would call free.

Either lighten up the prereqs, make them the more commonly used enhancements, or add some more power to the PrE.

As it is, this is the PrE I was building my current Pally for, and now I doubt I will be taking it (for 20 APs).

EinarMal
12-11-2008, 05:00 PM
Or you could just build a Ranger, get evil outsiders as a favored enemy, plus ram's might, free TWF and bow feats, and evasion all included for one low low price of 0.

:D

Kinda weak to me....

Jadeare
12-11-2008, 07:46 PM
Hey, quick question. Will the +4 at tier three be attack only, or damage as well?

Read like attack only, not sure but i thought GB was like an enhancement increase on the weapon of +4 against selected foe. I.E. +5 SS of GEOB is like a +9 SS against Evil Outsiders.

So, is this:

+4 attack and damage

or

+4 attack only, it isnt exactly the same as Greater banes

or

+4 attack only, greater banes only apply a bonus to attack rolls, not damage.

Please not this is in relation to tier 3, i have excluded the 4d6 on purpose.

SteeleTrueheart
12-11-2008, 08:00 PM
+4 attack only, greater banes only apply a bonus to attack rolls, not damage.


This is how banes work.

even though you dont want to talk about the +4d6 damage, note that it will give you a minimum of 4 damage...

Solmage
12-11-2008, 08:03 PM
*steps on some infernal roaches* They're everywhere I tell ya!

Those demon roaches are a real problem! We need to start laying down traps for them! Here are some diagrams: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html

:)

SteeleTrueheart
12-11-2008, 08:35 PM
Tier 3 should grant a fear immunity aura, as others have said.

Other than that, I think this is perfect. No insane feat requirements, minimal useless enhancement requirements, and not too overpowered.

Did the devs learn something about overpowering classes or something? :)

For those wanting more power.... if they give more, it will cost more in prereqs.

Personally it will cost me 6AP more than I would normally spend (Energy of the Templar and Courage of Good)

Since in Mod 9 we will be getting 16 more AP for levels 17-20 that means I will be spending 8 on this enhancement and 6 on those prereqs I dont have... leaving me with 2AP left. Capstone enhancements cost 2AP.... Hmmm guess I can't afford Divine Might IV now.... oh well, can't have everything!

EDIT: Almost no clickies = THANK YOU ELADRIN!

kingfisher
12-11-2008, 08:50 PM
the 12p/6r/2m or ro will be cool with the first 2 tiers of this plus temp I (unless they weaken temp I)

Balkas
12-11-2008, 09:35 PM
the 12p/6r/2m or ro will be cool with the first 2 tiers of this plus temp I (unless they weaken temp I)

Methinks people may just forego the evasion and go 14 Paladin/6 Ranger so they can have Zeal + Tempest.

nbhs275
12-11-2008, 10:11 PM
Methinks people may just forego the evasion and go 14 Paladin/6 Ranger so they can have Zeal + Tempest.

ding ding ding! winner!

The third tier of this puppy really needs something to make people go "OOOH" and AAHH" because right now its nothing that is simply a need.

kingfisher
12-11-2008, 10:40 PM
Methinks people may just forego the evasion and go 14 Paladin/6 Ranger so they can have Zeal + Tempest.


its only a partial stack right? the evasion and either utility/dps or feats/ac will be worth the speed/dps loss imo

Balkas
12-12-2008, 12:12 AM
its only a partial stack right? the evasion and either utility/dps or feats/ac will be worth the speed/dps loss imo

They are different types of bonuses, so I'm fairly certain they stack completely.

SteeleTrueheart
12-12-2008, 12:12 AM
ding ding ding! winner!

The third tier of this puppy really needs something to make people go "OOOH" and AAHH" because right now its nothing that is simply a need.


No I think the capstone needs to be more like: "Hmm? is evasion really worth it? Hmm?

Jadeare
12-12-2008, 12:53 AM
This is how banes work.

even though you dont want to talk about the +4d6 damage, note that it will give you a minimum of 4 damage...

Thanks for the info.

The reason i didn't mention the 4d6 is because i am interested in the crits. The 4d6 won't multiply.

Yes i understand that the 4d6 is as much as i am likely to get from the extra 4 damage on a crit anyway.

While many of the paladins are focused on this thread id like to ask a question of you.

What is the most damage you have done on a crit, with an exalted smite, with a one handed weapon?

Weapon damage only, no maiming or burst.

Junts
12-12-2008, 01:02 AM
paladins cap out around 610 raw damage - thats a pick with exalted 2, level 16 and assorted basis damage - those smites add 55 to base, so you need to be hitting for about 45 with hte ordinary pick attack to hit 600 - then crit for 6x mult.

thats the max realistic - i know a guy who's paladin uses a earthgrab heavy pick - melee to grab, smite, divine sac (5x mult), move on

sephiroth1084
12-12-2008, 01:36 AM
Thank you very much for all the preview nuggets so far! Whether I'm thrilled about everything that has been previewed yet or not, I am distinctly happy that you folks at Turbine have lifted the moratorium on information sharing. Again, thank you for giving us stuff to think about, debate, and look forward to.

I like that the class is flavorful, and that the prereqs aren't TOO crippling, and I like that someone with this line will knock the **** out of the Pit Fiend, Sulu, orthons and bearded devils, but it applies to so little of the content in the game until you hit the Vale. Renders, Reavers and Flensers in CO6 and Threnal are the only evil outsiders that spring to mind that early in the game.

And someone asked about it being +4 attack and +4d6 damage, and whether that was the same as greater bane exactly. No, greater bane would also add +4 damage (+4d6+4), but that's a minor issue.

I'm really just hoping that the Defender of Siberys is totally awesome.

marcosoneghett
12-12-2008, 07:01 AM
Please;

To make the Paladin more on par with other dps classes please extend this enhancement. As stated earlier by my fellow players, make it good for ALL evil outsiders at 6, Chaotic at 12, and the uber bonus can stay the same at 18.

Also Tolero, do you have anything planned for Undead? I still think this line would be better IF you could include undead on the bonus. This would make more sense also, thematically speaking.

The_Ick
12-12-2008, 09:04 AM
Please;
Also Tolero, do you have anything planned for Undead? I still think this line would be better IF you could include undead on the bonus. This would make more sense also, thematically speaking.

I like the idea of adding undead to the effected bad guys. Most of mod8+ is Evil Outsiders so i will be fairly effective, but not so much at the lower leverls. I think changing it so it is Evil Outsiders & UNDEAD keeps with the overall theme of the enhancement line and makes this useful at lower levels.

I think adding undead to this effect would really go a long way towards making this a great line for Pallys all the way from 1 to 20. Useful at all levels, not just endgame.

sephiroth1084
12-12-2008, 10:51 AM
I like the idea of adding undead to the effected bad guys. Most of mod8+ is Evil Outsiders so i will be fairly effective, but not so much at the lower leverls. I think changing it so it is Evil Outsiders & UNDEAD keeps with the overall theme of the enhancement line and makes this useful at lower levels.

I think adding undead to this effect would really go a long way towards making this a great line for Pallys all the way from 1 to 20. Useful at all levels, not just endgame.

That would really step on the toes of The Hunter of the Dead PrE the paladins are also getting.

kingfisher
12-12-2008, 11:24 AM
I think adding undead to this effect would really go a long way towards making this a great line for Pallys all the way from 1 to 20. Useful at all levels, not just endgame.


you can always take HOTD first and then respec into KOTC at higher lvls

frugal_gourmet
12-12-2008, 11:24 AM
I think they should be given "Mettle".

maddmatt70
12-12-2008, 12:54 PM
Or you could just build a Ranger, get evil outsiders as a favored enemy, plus ram's might, free TWF and bow feats, and evasion all included for one low low price of 0.

:D

Kinda weak to me....

The ranger will not do as much dps against evil outsiders as the paladin. Do the math. Since the next raid boss will likely be an evil outsider and perhaps most of the mobs will be evil outsiders - paladins could be very sought after next mod.

Josh
12-12-2008, 01:17 PM
This is a good start (and can we get tier III dropped to lvl 16? :D). In addition to the attack bonus, I'd like to see some sort of an AC bonus also...perhaps something like +1, +2, +3 per tier. That would be an awesome edition, and put this PrE over the top I think.

Also suggest removing the fear bonus thing. It's pretty weaksauce for endgame content. How about replacing it with a sacred bonus to saves against evil outsiders? Or, adding the "mettle" effect to the paladin's aura so everyone gets it. That would be cool indeed. If all goes well I'll be spec'ing Callisto for this.

Josh
12-12-2008, 01:18 PM
I think they should be given "Mettle".

I could get behind this suggestion. Good idea.

Aesop
12-12-2008, 01:33 PM
Mettle wouldn't be bad.

Negating damage from Inflict Spells on a successful Save

and maybe from Disintegrate PK and FoD

arethere any other Will/Fort save for partial effects?

Aesop

maddmatt70
12-12-2008, 01:33 PM
I am happy about the dps bump, but the more I look at this prc the more I am disappointed the reason is the extremely heavy poor action points cost. I have calculated that I would have to pick up 20 action points to get this prestige class and this doesn't count the enhancements that I have such as extra smite II and divine might 1. One enhancement that I don't have because (it is for 15th level paladins) that I was planning to get when the cap goes up was divine might 3 which cost 3 action points so I was hoping that I wouldn't have to spend any more then 11 action points on enhancements I didn't already have but 20 is silly. It is one thing to have some stringent requirements that have some flavor in them, but another to hamstring paladins.

Break down of enhancements with analysis:
1 action point: Paladin Courage of Good. Almost no paladins have this. + to fear aura.
1 action point: Paladin Energy of Templar 1. Some paladins have this one, but not many. +20 sp.
2 action point: Paladin Extra Smite II. Almost all paladins have this one.
1 action point: choice of divine sacrifice, exalted smite, divine might. Almost all paladins have this one.
4 action point: Paladin Knight of Chalice. No paladins have this one.
2 action point: Paladin Knight of Chalice II. No paladins have this one.
2 action point: Paladin Courage of Good II. Almost no paladins have this. +to fear aura.
2 action point: Paladin Energy of the Templar 2. Almost no paladins have this. +40 sp.
2 action point: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III. No paladins have this one.
6 action point: Any paladin faith enhancement II. The first tier cost 2 and the second tier 4. Some paladins have these.

Total action point cost: 23

The courage of good enhancements are purely flavor and to give this pre some requirements, but some of the others such as energy of the templar have little to do with the flavor of the prc. My recommendation is to remove both energy of the templars from the requirements and to change the paladin faith enhancement requirement from 2 to 1.

Holgar
12-12-2008, 01:34 PM
Just to clarify:

A Faith II enhancement = Silver Flame Exorcism, Unyielding Sovereignty, etc.?

Holgar

Aesop
12-12-2008, 01:36 PM
Just to clarify:

A Faith II enhancement = Silver Flame Exorcism, Unyielding Sovereignty, etc.?

Holgar

yep

query
12-12-2008, 01:48 PM
feindish count for more of those outsiders not lawful?

Aesop
12-12-2008, 02:35 PM
feindish count for more of those outsiders not lawful?

Mephits
Alignment: Usually neutral


Fiendish critters
Alignment: Always evil (any)
Size and Type: Animals or vermin with this
template become magical beasts, but otherwise
the creature type is unchanged. Size is
unchanged. Fiendish creatures encountered
on the Material Plane have the extraplanar
subtype.

EinarMal
12-12-2008, 02:50 PM
The ranger will not do as much dps against evil outsiders as the paladin. Do the math. Since the next raid boss will likely be an evil outsider and perhaps most of the mobs will be evil outsiders - paladins could be very sought after next mod.

Assuming said Paladin chooses TWF feats (rare) and spends all the required AP to get this then it's true they will be better against one type of mob.

Still better off making a TWF Ranger with Evasion plus good situational bow use. I suppose if you only care about the latest raid in the current Mod you might be better off, for the other 99.9% of the game not so much.

I am sorry but this is way too narrow, so you get to be great for one Mod and a dozen or so quests. At best it is something you might swap in/out occasionally as you level.

frugal_gourmet
12-12-2008, 02:54 PM
I suppose if you only care about the latest raid in the current Mod you might be better off, for the other 99.9% of the game not so much.

Also, the only two raids in the game that are even remotely difficult.

EinarMal
12-12-2008, 02:58 PM
Also, the only two raids in the game that are even remotely difficult.

Yeah for now, we don't even know how much of a mix of mobs will be in the next raid(s) etc... I mean it adds some flavor to the class I suppose.

The cost should be reduced at the minimum if that is all it is going to do.

I guess I prefer the prestige class perspective where you don't switch back and forth. To me it is bothersome that for level 1-14 it is barely usable, and the at 15 it's good? That just seems poorly balanced to me, I guess if you are a power gamer that gets to cap in a few weeks it doesn't matter but I don't play nearly that much and I don't like that design personally.

frugal_gourmet
12-12-2008, 03:02 PM
Yeah for now, we don't even know how much of a mix of mobs will be in the next raid(s) etc... I mean it adds some flavor to the class I suppose.

The cost should be reduced at the minimum if that is all it is going to do.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing so much as just saying "Welp. It's better than... nothing... maybe?"

The only times in the game when a class is discrimated against anyway (I feel at least) is the really hard end game content. To me, being "uber" doesn't really matter when the quest is easy anyway.

I guess, though, the latest mod might not be Paladin friendly.

EinarMal
12-12-2008, 03:06 PM
Yeah, I'm not disagreeing so much as just saying "Welp. It's better than... nothing... maybe?"

The only times in the game when a class is discrimated against anyway (I feel at least) is the really hard end game content. To me, being "uber" doesn't really matter when the quest is easy anyway.

I guess, though, the latest mod might not be Paladin friendly.

Yeah, it will be good I agree if Pallies are included more in raids no argument there. I don't like though that you would need to switch between this and hunter of the dead as you level and then maybe back to something else or neither each Mod. That to me isn't the flavor of a prestige class. It is supposed to be part of the design of the build not switched each Mod depending on what you are fighting.

frugal_gourmet
12-12-2008, 03:08 PM
Yeah, it will be good I agree if Pallies are included more in raids no argument there. I don't like though that you would need to switch between this and hunter of the dead as you level and then maybe back to something else or neither each Mod. That to me isn't the flavor of a prestige class. It is supposed to be part of the design of the build not switched each Mod depending on what you are fighting.

I think they just need to add *1* more feature to it. I don't know what that feature might be, but just something a little extra that works all the time.

Mhykke
12-12-2008, 03:10 PM
I think they just need to add *1* more feature to it. I don't know what that feature might be, but just something a little extra that works all the time.

This may not be huge, but I'd like if pally aura worked like the aura you see around arcane skeletons, except inflicting good damage on evil. It wouldn't have to be big, but it'd be nice for flavor. Maybe not a PrE as much as a capstone.....

maddmatt70
12-12-2008, 03:15 PM
Assuming said Paladin chooses TWF feats (rare) and spends all the required AP to get this then it's true they will be better against one type of mob.


Alot less rare now einar mal. Every new paladin made this mod and in the future will be much more likely to be twf then any other kind of combat style I would wager. Your second point is accurate though it has a heavy AP cost - too heavy. I can fit it in, but the cost is very heavy such that it benefits a paladin less then some of the other prestige classes published thus far.

Guaire
12-12-2008, 03:40 PM
/snip
Your second point is accurate though it has a heavy AP cost - too heavy. I can fit it in, but the cost is very heavy such that it benefits a paladin less then some of the other prestige classes published thus far.

Agreed. Many paladin enhancements are already costly from an AP standpoint. This only adds to the burden and poses some painful choices.

Gum
12-12-2008, 04:38 PM
That would really step on the toes of The Hunter of the Dead PrE the paladins are also getting.

Agreed. Also, when thinking about the whole fear immunity aura thing, what does that do for the spell Lion heart? I know the aura would be like mass lion-heart, but paladin spells are already limited so what does this say for Lion-heart?

Gum
12-12-2008, 04:40 PM
I think they just need to add *1* more feature to it. I don't know what that feature might be, but just something a little extra that works all the time.

Totally agree here

Gum
12-12-2008, 04:41 PM
This may not be huge, but I'd like if pally aura worked like the aura you see around arcane skeletons, except inflicting good damage on evil. It wouldn't have to be big, but it'd be nice for flavor. Maybe not a PrE as much as a capstone.....

Hmm, now there's a good idea.

Flasharte
12-12-2008, 06:00 PM
this may have been addressed between pages 3-6... but im lazy! Will this to hit and damge from enhancements stack with an actual greater eveil outsider bane weapon (+8 to hit with 8d6 damage)?

Aesop
12-12-2008, 06:08 PM
this may have been addressed between pages 3-6... but im lazy! Will this to hit and damge from enhancements stack with an actual greater eveil outsider bane weapon (+8 to hit with 8d6 damage)?

yes though its closer to +8 to hit +4 Damage +8d6 Damage

Aesop

Rog
12-12-2008, 06:29 PM
let us not forget this is only one of 3 pally lines. if they are keeping up with how they did bards,rogs,rangers. there is 2 other special builds you can go with that they have not told us about yet. pally are ment to fight evil period.

Mhykke
12-12-2008, 07:54 PM
let us not forget this is only one of 3 pally lines. if they are keeping up with how they did bards,rogs,rangers. there is 2 other special builds you can go with that they have not told us about yet. pally are ment to fight evil period.

They told us about hunter of the dead already.

EinarMal
12-13-2008, 06:31 AM
let us not forget this is only one of 3 pally lines. if they are keeping up with how they did bards,rogs,rangers. there is 2 other special builds you can go with that they have not told us about yet. pally are ment to fight evil period.

Then make it have some kind of lesser benefit against evil creatures, so you get as is for evil outsiders plus some kind of smaller boost against evil mobs. Unless Turbine goes back and adds in evil outsiders from level 1-14 (not likely) I don't like a prestige class that is only intended to work at high levels (if your lucky on the types of mobs they stock dungeons with).

Angelus_dead
12-13-2008, 09:06 AM
I think they just need to add *1* more feature to it. I don't know what that feature might be, but just something a little extra that works all the time.
Here's an idea for a kind of effect that could be added. Not a great idea, but something.

Chalice 1: +2 intimidate bonus against evil

Chalice 2: +4 intimdiate bonus against evil. When you hit with a Smite or critical, the enemy is shaken for 10 sec (Will DC 10+pal/2+cha negate)

Chalice 3: +8 intimidate bonus against evil. When you hit with a critical, the enemy is shaken for 20 sec (Will DC 10+pal/2+cha negate). When you hit with a Smite, the enemy is feared for 10 sec (Will DC 10+pal/2+cha negate). Unlike regular Fear, it won't run away.

Junts
12-13-2008, 09:18 AM
admittedly, angelus, i like the idea, but it'd probably be overpowered on a build like mine (with the level-ups and that alone, i could hit an intimidate of 70 with that kind of bonus on tier3..sign me up!)

i like the concept, though how its going to interact with splashed intimidate paladins without making them the game's best intimidators of raid-bosses is tough to work out (anything that catches normal pallys up moves us to the top)


enemy wont run away? do you mean enemy hits fear stage 4 (petrified with gear, eg immobile?)

Angelus_dead
12-13-2008, 09:40 AM
admittedly, angelus, i like the idea, but it'd probably be overpowered on a build like mine (with the level-ups and that alone, i could hit an intimidate of 70 with that kind of bonus on tier3..sign me up!)
The huge problem with adding an Intimidate bonus to a paladin enhancement (or paladin spell) is that it will work so differently for pure and multiclass paladins.

More precisely, it is problematic to give any class a feature which improves a non-class skill. (Like how that same trouble came up trying to balance the Move Silently bonuses from some wildshape forms)

The ways to work around this are tricky and hard to describe, which means it's hard for them to fit in the fairly-small amount of room the game provides when you look at an enhancement. And it's a lot harder to create mechanics that are fair to characters built without knowing about the mechanic and who can't respec their skillpoints.

However, here's an attempt at that:
Chalice 1, 2, 3 give a +1, +2, +3 bonus to intimidate evil enemies, and also give the character a +1, +2, +3 bonus to intimidate ranks, which cannot bring your ranks to over character level+3.
You can see the problem with that rule: for a pure paladin it's purely a bonus, providing +3 ranks he couldn't get any other way. But for a multiclass like your build, those 3 ranks give you no benefit unless you had a way to respec skillpoints into something else.

This just goes to re-emphasize what I've said before: the lack of respec features limits the game-design options the developers can use.


enemy wont run away? do you mean enemy hits fear stage 4 (petrified with gear, eg immobile?)
No, petrified would give you autocrits. This effect makes it stand in place, which is like the Dazed condition, except that unlike Daze it can be blocked by fear immunity. The point is not to make your teammates mad because you Smited something and it ran out of his reach.

Junts
12-13-2008, 09:47 AM
Im not sure we have that sort of fear effect now; having it fuction like a crit smite has a chance of essentially triggering the censure demons effect (maybe on evil outsiders; I am ok with the focus of this prestige class) would work I suppose. The censure effect actually looks solid, though its too bad there's so few things we'd use it on. (i can see some times I'd want to use it, but we just need more demons for it to be effective).

the intimidate idea is better that way, I mean, I would love to get such a massive bonus I could do away with other things I've invested in intimidate, but it'd be excessive.


another good idea would be threat increases, knight increasing threat to evil outsiders by 10, 20 and 30% as a passive bonus that cannot be lost (this would be both a positive and negative depending on your build, which I'm ok with - creates some extra things to account for). it would add some design considerations for the twf pure dps edition of this prc which is inevitable, that being that you are -going- to have aggro and paladin twf builds without monk involved are not exactly ac friendly (especially not this optimized for dps, when its just unlikely they will have the ap for bulwark -or- the int for ce).

Angelus_dead
12-13-2008, 09:52 AM
another good idea would be threat increases, knight increasing threat to evil outsiders by 10, 20 and 30% as a passive bonus that cannot be lost
This specialty does not need any other features which are limited to Evil Outsiders.

Its problem is that it's totally great against Evil Outsiders, but doesn't have enough generic bonuses to notice in any other situation. The two paths to address that problem are to make the specialty either better or cheaper... and since it's hard to find a way to make it better, maybe it should just have the price reduced instead.

Junts
12-13-2008, 10:07 AM
I am ok with the price reduction, but I do think the focus is ok. We know mod9 advances the shavarath line, so we can be reasonably certain that there will be more evil outsiders involved.

In the present endgame, censure demons is only useful with the hound, but the damage effect is significant for all major bosses.

Let us contrast with the hunter of the dead, which is extremely well designed and has great benefits.

hunter of the dead is most significant for benefits which don't have a direct relation to undead (immunity to energy drain, the greater restore clickies) -because there are not a significant amount of undead in the present endgame).

people are not gonna take that prestige class to vorpal mobs in 2 semi-popular explorer areas (soami/orchard), the light damage for one major boss (sorjek) and the ability to rock orchard quests. the benefits are great because they apply in a lot of areas, but the bigger thing about hunter is that -its undead based effects are almost insignificant as there are not enough undead fights to matter-.

hunter could give an extra 8d6 on every attack vs undead and not be appreciably better than it is now because that ability is so difficult to make use of in a significant way. that is not true of chalice's damage bonus or evil outsider focus, because they are ubiquitous in the endgame and promise to continue to be.

this bonus applies to every remotely significant enemy in every major endgame quest outside of the mod8 content as it is, and i doubt a raid sending us to shavarath is gonna change that. imagine if rangers only got one favored enemy in ddo: they would all have evil outsider anyway. that limitation is not as significant as you make it out to be. ****, hunter's most significant effects are significant -because they are of great application in the content that relates to an evil outsider quest-, eg, the hound of xoriat. admittedly, the neg leveling does not come from evil outsiders themselves, but rather aberrations, people don't run cursed crypt to get silver flame ammys made to stop neg leveling from random clerical casters - the item is significant solely for the subterrane, and so is hunter's (to judge on present endgame content at least).

I'm ok with general bonuses, but lets not act like evil outsiders aren't the most important thing in the game to be good at fighting at high levels.


edit: an addition, as we know that defender of siberys has some feat requirements, I would be fine with appropriate feat requirements for the other two prestige classes to reduce their ap cost (discussion of what's appropriate also welcome), as it would be very welcome in an already ap-constrained class like the paladin.

I admit, appropriate feats elude me, however.

Angelus_dead
12-13-2008, 10:15 AM
Even if it does give full immunity, it's still mostly ineffectual, because characters of level 18+ will ALWAYS have Greater Heroism unless the enemy is dispelling, or they were just recently been raised from death.
Hi Eladrin, here is a suggestion which would increase the variety of some new boss monsters, and also have a side-effect of making a paladin's anti-fear aura be more valuable (which would boost this specialty)

In the D&D 3.5 Heros of Horror book is the Greater Master of Terror feature, which allows a caster to ignore the fear immunity of creatures without more than +4 HD over her. DDO characters of above level 12 are hardly ever seen without fear immunity in combat, because the +4 morale bonuses from Greater Heroism are helpful for many other purposes. It's like you cast GH for the attacks and saves, and the immunity is a free rider.

Presently, the only way a DDO quest designer could make fear effects a noticeable part of gameplay is to spam Greater Dispel or Antimagic, and that sort of blanket debuffing threatens the player characters in many more ways than just the chance they'll get scared.

Allowing certain monsters to cast spells that penetrate fear immunity would give you a path to make enemy fear effects a part of high-level gameplay, without needing to dispel everything. If this is done, then the penetrating fear effects should have a shorter duration than usual for that caster level. That kind of change could enable more ways to design a boss encounter, and make the party care a little more about having nice Will saves.

Junts
12-13-2008, 10:22 AM
interesting suggestion, angelus, especially if certain innate immunities still functioned, like, say, one from this aura.

after all, being shaken sucks even if you do save, so there would be some incentive even if your party was not acquiring incapacitating fear

sephiroth1084
12-15-2008, 10:09 AM
I'm ok with general bonuses, but lets not act like evil outsiders aren't the most important thing in the game to be good at fighting at high levels.




Right now, but do we want the PrE to become obsolete the moment Turbine releases a new Mod without a focus on evil outsiders?

Besides, these shouldn't all be looked at exclusively from an endgame perspective. While other classes are getting useful PrEs to take at level 6 and 12, the paladin is basically getting one to take only at level 18 (or just before going into the vale around 13/14).

How many evil outsiders are there earlier in the game? I'm thinking CO 6 and Threnal, and...nothing else springs to mind.

I get that paladins are very good in the first half of the game (even the first 3/4), but we could stand to have 3 meaningful PrEs, rather than 1 meaningful, a second somewhat meaningful, and a 3rd that is basically just a super-expensive level 18 enhancement.

Lillitheris
12-15-2008, 10:54 AM
Huge meh :(

The 3rd tier fear bonus should be definitely Fear Immunity. However, that would make the Courage of Good -prerequisite useless. Which I don't mind at all, as it should be replaced with something else anyway. Anything else.

Again, meh!

jakeelala
12-15-2008, 05:42 PM
you should make this apply to anything that's evil, but just at 50%, and 100% against Evil Outsiders.

Think about rangers with 1 favored enemy. How lame would that be?

query
12-15-2008, 10:34 PM
I also call Meh.

Once the outsider is gone, the abilities do not go anywhere like the beforementioned Hunter. So this line is weak or sometimes worthless building up to getting it, then has one big moment, and possibly a sudden goodbye unless outsiders ALWAYS play some important role from every quest forward.


Even in planar adventures, the party will run into "outsiders" or Prime non demonic enemies just like we seem to find a huge number of elementals/mephits/blood war (devils/demons) in our "regular" plane.

When it come down to it, I'd rather play a templar, Mettle included. Even a "short" PrC like this couold be expanded to a three tier enhancement line.


But realisticly, we can expect modifications, not complete alterations at this point--as we're not recoding from the ground up now, and such will take a couple of mods to see if they did possibly.


So, many of the previously mentioned suggestions are good (but I worry about undead addition as not to step on the toes of the Hunter line.)

But the bottom line is:

For the cost you ask for enhancements not as practical but more expensive apparently, what MORE will you add to make this a more rounded and/or powerful line than the points illustrated?

(Yeah, when I too saw the reminder of the faith AP costs, I almost cried.)

Boldrin
12-23-2008, 04:35 PM
WHY!!!!!???? WHY!!!!!???? Why didn't I keep my pally pure!!!???? The shame!!!! A lvl 18 pally is going to rule the shroud with holy sword and these enhancements. Just send him in to solo Arri

DelScorcho
12-24-2008, 01:35 PM
I'm considering having separate enhancement printouts for the KOC and Hunter PrC. If mod 9 has "shroud-like" grinding, I'll leave him here. If Mod 10 features undead, I'll switch him over to the hunter PrC with an enhancement swap. This would give him two mods where the Pally was a dominant melee class (which really hasn't happened since mod 1-3). Its really not a bad thing to be able to ungimp a pally in three days. Think about how long it has been since we've had that option.

Balkas
12-24-2008, 02:26 PM
I think an AC bonus against outsiders would be nice.

:)

Angelus_dead
01-02-2009, 02:44 PM
Steps to fix Knight of the Chalice. It has two problems: the DPS bonus is too situational, and the fear bonus is insubstantial.

Changes:
1. An anti-fear bonus better than just a +X on saving throws. There are many ways to do it, but a simple one is: Tier 1- proc a fear dispel on nearby allies every 15 sec, Tier 2- aura grants fear immunity, Tier 3- aura grants fear immunity for 60 sec.

2. DPS and combat bonuses against more than just Evil Outsiders. When fighting an enemy related to Evil Outsiders you get half the bonuses to damage, attack, and saves. Related creatures include anything Fiendish or Fiend-blooded, anything evil-aligned that would be extraplanar if encountered on Eberron, anyone possessed by an evil outsider (such as Riedran Inspired), any evil aligned divine spellcaster, neutral divine spellcasters of an evil creed, and monks with Path of Inevitable Dominion. Those bonuses don't stack if a creature fits in multiple categories (or is also an Evil Outsider)

A bonus vs Fiendish creatures just makes sense, and the bonus against evil divine casters would have some value in an enormous array of quests (think about how many goblins, vampires, and trolls are clerics of some kind). Evil Divine Casters presumably get powers from Evil Outsiders, so they'd be on the Chalice's hit-list.

Kalanth
01-02-2009, 08:08 PM
I dunno. I like it just enough that I will likely be finding someway to add this to my Tempest Paladin.

Isys
01-07-2009, 05:35 PM
Does anyone know if the enhancement lines for the prestige classes are exclusive like the faith lines (Silver Flame, Sovereign Host, etc.) or can they be chosen like most other enhancements and unlocked though various prerequisite requirements. In simple terms, can a pally have both the abilities of Hunter of the Dead II and Knight of the Chalice II at the same time once the prerequisites are fulfilled?

Borror0
01-07-2009, 07:36 PM
In simple terms, can a pally have both the abilities of Hunter of the Dead II and Knight of the Chalice II at the same time once the prerequisites are fulfilled?
No. Only one of the two. If you are, for example, 12paladin/6ranger, you can have KotC II and Tempest I however.

GlassCannon
02-22-2009, 02:39 AM
No. Only one of the two. If you are, for example, 12paladin/6ranger, you can have KotC II and Tempest I however.

I see that being the new Flavor of the Month build for DPS characters... Rog2/Rgr6/Pal12...

That is, if the Monk AC bonus thing gets fixed properly.

Junts
02-22-2009, 04:09 AM
I see that being the new Flavor of the Month build for DPS characters... Rog2/Rgr6/Pal12...

That is, if the Monk AC bonus thing gets fixed properly.

14 pally gets you a stacking 10% more attack speed

GlassCannon
02-22-2009, 04:30 AM
14 pally gets you a stacking 10% more attack speed

Which is why they will be clamoring all the more fervently for the level cap to move to 22 ASAP. A few of them might actually forego the two Rogue levels for the Tempest+Zeal combination at level 20.

This is when Multiclassing beats out Pure classes to a point of interest for some, and demands a balance via Multiclass Penalty. We saw the problems Rage Critical 2 generated. Tempest+ Zeals won't be near as bad, mind, but there are min/maxing powergaming numbercrunchers out there just itching to make another "You suck, go die in a fire and play WoW because you aren't me, and you didn't build this build" design(yes, they actually do go out of their way to completely belittle and humiliate some folks, and recieve absolutely no repercussions for it... I see them right back at it when I log in a few days later).

Pwesiela
04-10-2009, 06:01 PM
You know, now that I'm on Llama Land, and actually playing around with these things, I really need to add my voice to those who state that these cost too much AP to get the second and third levels. I mean, I'm fine with having the first tier require other enhancements, but to get the third level of this one, you have to spend 8 AP. 3 on improved turning III, 3 on extra turning III, and then an additional 2 on the actual enhancement. That's a full 2 levels for one enhancement, and it's insane. I highly suggest taking out the need to take the extra turning and improved turning. We all know that turning isn't worth the pixles it generates. Why make the paladins suffer to take them when they're bunk?

Too much Turbine. Front load the cost, and get rid of the extensive cost after.

eonfreon
04-13-2009, 10:58 PM
Steps to fix Knight of the Chalice. It has two problems: the DPS bonus is too situational, and the fear bonus is insubstantial.

Changes:
1. An anti-fear bonus better than just a +X on saving throws. There are many ways to do it, but a simple one is: Tier 1- proc a fear dispel on nearby allies every 15 sec, Tier 2- aura grants fear immunity, Tier 3- aura grants fear immunity for 60 sec.

2. DPS and combat bonuses against more than just Evil Outsiders. When fighting an enemy related to Evil Outsiders you get half the bonuses to damage, attack, and saves. Related creatures include anything Fiendish or Fiend-blooded, anything evil-aligned that would be extraplanar if encountered on Eberron, anyone possessed by an evil outsider (such as Riedran Inspired), any evil aligned divine spellcaster, neutral divine spellcasters of an evil creed, and monks with Path of Inevitable Dominion. Those bonuses don't stack if a creature fits in multiple categories (or is also an Evil Outsider)

A bonus vs Fiendish creatures just makes sense, and the bonus against evil divine casters would have some value in an enormous array of quests (think about how many goblins, vampires, and trolls are clerics of some kind). Evil Divine Casters presumably get powers from Evil Outsiders, so they'd be on the Chalice's hit-list.

Now this is a darn good idea.

Very useful, but not overpowering.

Creates diversity and saves this Prestige from being a "One Trick Monkey" type of enhancement, worth more than just taking at Level 12 or up when you go out to the Vale (because there are no Undead anyway - just **** Orthons and Devils - do Flesh Renders in Threnals count?).

And the Fear Dispel/Immunity Improvements just really replace Remove Fear Clickies/Spells.
Nicely beefed up passive ability (which is nice - the paladin is the king of clickie abilities) but hardly earthshattering.

This time I say you've hit the nail pretty much on the head.

Coldin
04-21-2009, 01:55 PM
Hmm...I'll just toss my two cents into increasing the general usefulness of Knight of the Chalice.

The increase in the amount of smites per day is very nice as far as that goes. Why not take that a bit further, and take the abilities from Divine Sacrifice and Exalted Smite, and add those to Knight's smites. That is to say, add small bits of light damage and possibly increase the crit multiplier and/or range on a smite. Of course increasing the crit multiplier and range might have to be something saved until the last enhancement. Alternatively, it could just increase the base damage of smites in general.

Just my quick 2 cp.