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bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 02:24 AM
Alright, just for Gunga... since i wanted to see the numbers he was going to respond with.

The original question was whether or not Rangers did more damage than Barbarians on non-critical hits. And by extension, whether Rangers far outDPSed any creature that had 100% fortification.

We'll look at 2 characters, both dwarf, both using the same weapons.

Barbarian's strength:

18 + 6 (item) + 4 (level ups) + 10 (Rage + enhancements) + 2 (tome) = 40 strength (Yes, I realize we can get it higher... but not through any methods that aren't available to both classes... so this will suffice)

Ranger's strength:

18 + 6 (item) + 4 (level ups) + 2 (tome) + 2 (Ram's Might) = 32 Strength

-----------------------------------------------

So now.. we have the barbarian doing:

15 damage with his mainhand in bonus strength damage, and 7 damage with his offhand. Now.. the barbarian also gets bonuses from Barbarian power attack. I can't for the life of me remember if they get barbarian power attack IV, so we'll just call it +3 now.

18 main/ 10 off

The Ranger on the other hand is doing 11 damage with his main hand and 5 damage with his offhand.

But wait.. the ranger now gets damage bonuses too. Favored enemy bonus is +12, and Ram's Might is +3.

So now the final numbers look like:

26 main/ 20 off

-------------------------------------------------

A final difference of 8 damage on the main hand, and 10 on the offhand in the Ranger's Favor.

--------------------------------------------------

Of course... the interesting thing will be if a barbarian can beat that if he goes into full out Frenzied Berserker, while even damaging himself. Great Frenzy and Frenzy stacked together will net 6 strength, and 6d6 extra damage via vicious.

The strength gives a bonus of +3 str to main hand, +2 to offhand, and then 21 to each hand with the vicious effects. Giving the barbarian 42 damage bonus with mainhand and 33 with the offhand. Which would seem to give a massive bonus to the barbarian.

But it's only fair to give the Rangers their prestige enhancement, if the 18 lvl barbarian is going to count all 3 tiers of his. You can't simply multiply these numbers by 1.1 to get your answer, because the attack speed actually gives a multiplicative bonus to the entire damage of each hand.

So assuming +5 greensteel dwarven axes... lightning strike of course. A rangers damage would equal 2d10 (11) + 26 (str+fe+ram's) + 5(enchantment) + 14 (lightning strike of 700 damage @ 2% proc) + 7 (holy) + 3.5 (lightning) for a total of 66.5 with mainhand, and 60.5 with offhand.

I could add Rage, madstone rage, etc... but that would muck up everything even more than it already is. Just remember that a Ranger would get a 10% increase in the bonus of anymore variables (bard songs, rages, prayer, etc) than the barbarian would. If you want to add all those bonuses you could get an added 1.5 (at least) to each hand, but I won't worry about those.

10% of that bonus to each hand 6.6 to mainhand, and 6.0 to offhand would and would bring the Ranger up to 32.6 mainhand/26 offhand.

-------------------------------------

Fully Frenzied and Raged barbarian
42/33
Tempest Ranger
32/26

---------------------------------------

So, with double frenzy and rage going, the barbarian wins out by 10 damage on main hand, and 7 on offhand. So a Frenzied berserker wins out against the Ranger even against fortified targets.

Now you just have to ask yourself if that gain is worth taking 2d3 damage with each hand on every swing. 4 damage with each hand... hasted you would get something like 110 swings / min. (I'm not really up to speed on swings/min.. someone else can enlighten on that point, but 110 is fairly close hasted).

110 swings or so with both hands, or 880 damage or so a minute. It'll be a bit lower than that with offhand not getting full progression, and a miss every 20th swing or so.

But yeah...

---------------------------------------------

For the record. I realize that barbs do in fact make up quite a bit of DPS with barb critical rage I & II and soon to be multiplier I & II. But I would also remind people that that extra 21 damage from vicious won't be multiplied either.

I'm merely of the opinion that the slight bonus in DPS that barbarian is not enough of an increase to warrant the huge hit point sink that the double vicious is going to offer.

Anyways, I'm sure I made plenty of math mistakes at 2am... so feel free to do your own rundown.

Angelus_dead
12-11-2008, 02:38 AM
For the record. I realize that barbs do in fact make up quite a bit of DPS with barb critical rage I & II and soon to be multiplier I & II. But I would also remind people that that extra 21 damage from vicious won't be multiplied either.
Tell them to upgrade it to Vicious Burst.

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 02:41 AM
Tell them to upgrade it to Vicious Burst.

Truth be told... with all the drawbacks of vicious... vicious should probably just be added to base damage and multiplied along with the crit multiplier in any application.

Gunga
12-11-2008, 02:43 AM
Read up, and take some notes.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1963158&postcount=129

Nice post btw. Looks like you've put a lot of work into it. I'm going to take the time tomorrow to go through it because you took the time to put it down.

Now that you've done the work, can you believe that you suggested a Ranger could out-DPS a Barb?! This is what I said when you first suggested that:



Rangers do more damage than barbarians per hit.

Ha ha ha ha. HHAAAA ha ha ha ha. HAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA HAAAa haa ha ha.

No.

Makes a little more sense now, eh?

Gnight, Bob.

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 02:47 AM
Read up, and take some notes.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1963158&postcount=129

What am I taking notes on? There's no work shown?

it doesn't look like he's counted tempest attack speed bonus correctly in cursory examination... but it's hard to tell. Because he didn't show his work.

Gunga
12-11-2008, 02:58 AM
What am I taking notes on? There's no work shown?

it doesn't look like he's counted tempest attack speed bonus correctly in cursory examination... but it's hard to tell. Because he didn't show his work.

Maybe you guys could hook up and discuss. If you are having a hard time with speed calculation, please remember that you specifically said per swing. So lets just take that out of the equation. If you look at the main hand number in the link posted above, you'll notice a considerable difference in dps.

<BARBARBIAN

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 03:04 AM
Maybe you guys could hook up and discuss. If you are having a hard time with speed calculation, please remember that you specifically said per swing. So lets just take that out of the equation. If you look at the main hand number in the link posted above, you'll notice a considerable difference in dps.

<BARBARBIAN

I did... but I also wasn't talking about Frenzied Berserker changes at the time either. And before Frenzied berserker... Rangers DEFINATELY won. By a very very large margin.

Taking out vicious.. they'd probably still lose. That 21 damage per hand is a pretty hefty bonus. And ironically.. the very thing that pushes barbarians over the top is the very thing I hate most about Frenzied Berserker... I just hate building characters that are 100% dependant on someone else.

Is that added bonus worth requiring another characters attention just to keep you up? It turns into 2 characters combined damage instead of just 1. The original frenzy had some major drawbacks, to be sure... but I don't think they came anywhere close to 900 damage/turn.

Angelus_dead
12-11-2008, 03:05 AM
What am I taking notes on? There's no work shown?
Lol, the guy in that link doesn't even know what Ram's Might does.

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 03:06 AM
Lol, the guy in that link doesn't even know what Ram's Might does.

yeah... noticed he went off the in game description instead of the actual implementation.

Gunga
12-11-2008, 03:08 AM
Lol, the guy in that link doesn't even know what Ram's Might does.

Terrific analysis, A_D. Need a mirror to back-pedal home with? :)

Have a good night.

Angelus_dead
12-11-2008, 03:09 AM
Taking out vicious.. they'd probably still lose. That 21 damage per hand is a pretty hefty bonus.
Double frenzy adds 6d6 + 3 * 1.5 * 0.75 = 6*3.5 + 3.4 = ~25 damage.


Is that added bonus worth requiring another characters attention just to keep you up? It turns into 2 characters combined damage instead of just 1.
Hireling clerics!


The original frenzy had some major drawbacks, to be sure... but I don't think they came anywhere close to 900 damage/turn.
What's the "original frenzy"?

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 03:12 AM
Double frenzy adds 6d6 + 3 * 1.5 * 0.75 = 6*3.5 + 3.4 = ~25 damage.

What's the "original frenzy"?

Well.. the 21 damage was just the vicious. I want the frenzy without the vicous dammit! :)

As far as the original frenzy... umm... obviously... the original frenzy was pnp frenzy.

Duh.

:)

QuantumFX
12-11-2008, 03:39 AM
Favored enemy bonus is +12, and Ram's Might is +3.

If you're talking about a lvl 16 ranger Ram's Might is +2 STR +4 damage. The +4 damage applies to both weapons equally. Str bonus to the offhand is 1/2 STR bonus rounded down.

You'll also need to break down the speed. For every 10 animation chains the barbarian runs through a ranger will go through 11.

Angelus_dead
12-11-2008, 03:59 AM
As far as the original frenzy... umm... obviously... the original frenzy was pnp frenzy.
Oh, well that version of Frenzy was very different. It's +10 str and self-haste (doesn't stack with the spell), with 2 self-damage per round. But most importantly, you don't have a choice not to use it. Each time you're damaged you auto-frenzy unless you pass a will save.

Oh, and then you kill your own party.

The whole reason to take the D&D Frenzied Berserker class is to get the Supreme Power Attack ability- the frenzy itself is a drawback you'd prefer to not even have.

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 04:06 AM
If you're talking about a lvl 16 ranger Ram's Might is +2 STR +4 damage. The +4 damage applies to both weapons equally. Str bonus to the offhand is 1/2 STR bonus rounded down.

You'll also need to break down the speed. For every 10 animation chains the barbarian runs through a ranger will go through 11.

No.. Ram's might is +2 strength, +3 damage at lvl 16... a total strength bonus of +4.

And I did break down speed bonus.

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 04:07 AM
Oh, well that version of Frenzy was very different. It's +10 str and self-haste (doesn't stack with the spell), with 2 self-damage per round. But most importantly, you don't have a choice not to use it. Each time you're damaged you auto-frenzy unless you pass a will save.

Oh, and then you kill your own party.

The whole reason to take the D&D Frenzied Berserker class is to get the Supreme Power Attack ability- the frenzy itself is a drawback you'd prefer to not even have.

Yes... lots of drawbacks.

But I don't think they compete with -900 damage/turn. Wouldn't that be something in a pnp game. Combined with deathless frenzy... might make for a few good suicide attacks.

krud
12-11-2008, 10:29 AM
here's what I come up with using the op's build parameters,

barb - 30str (40 rage), PA, PA3
ranger - 30str (32 ram), PA, FE (+12 damage)

equipment
mineral II dwarven axes (holy/acid burst).
bloodstone

barbarian ranger
damage/swing daxe offhand daxe offhand

no enhancement 56.0 47.3 64.0 58.3

+10% alacrity - - 70.4 64.1

+2 crit range 66.3 56.1 - -

+1 crit multip 60.8 51.4 - -

+2 crit multip 65.7 55.5 - -

x2 crit multip 70.5 59.6 - -

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 10:31 AM
here's what I come up with using the op's build parameters,

barb - 30str (40 rage), PA, PA3
ranger - 30str (32 ram), PA, FE (+12 damage)

equipment
mineral II dwarven axes (holy/acid burst).
bloodstone

barbarian ranger
damage/swing daxe offhand daxe offhand

no enhancement 56.0 47.3 64.0 58.3

+10% alacrity - - 70.4 64.1

+2 crit range 66.3 56.1 - -

+1 crit multip 60.8 51.4 - -

+2 crit multip 65.7 55.5 - -

x2 crit multip 70.5 59.6 - -


Is that including the vicious and greater vicious? Frenzy strength?

krud
12-11-2008, 10:38 AM
Is that including the vicious and greater vicious? Frenzy strength?

No, no, and no

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 10:39 AM
No, no, and no

I was figuring, since the Ranger was still winning out.

That's interesting though. Ranger still wins out unless the barbarian activates both frenzies.

Gunga
12-11-2008, 10:42 AM
That's interesting though. Ranger still wins out unless the barbarian activates both frenzies.

With a spell on Tuesdays.

Strykersz
12-11-2008, 10:47 AM
The original comparison is badly flawed, as the barb is using one of the worst weapons possible(an axe). Give him rapiers and watch the magic happen.

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 10:51 AM
The original comparison is badly flawed, as the barb is using one of the worst weapons possible(an axe). Give him rapiers and watch the magic happen.

the original comparison wouldn't really matter. the issue at hand was dps per swing against a non critable mob

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 10:51 AM
The original comparison is badly flawed, as the barb is using one of the worst weapons possible(an axe). Give him rapiers and watch the magic happen.

Rapiers are the better weapon against 100% fort?

That's interesting. ;)

And read the Barbarian thread again.. it's been altered to show only 19-20 getting the crit multiplier. With that in mind and considerig dwarven axe enhancements... is it really a badly flawed comparison?

krud
12-11-2008, 10:51 AM
I was figuring, since the Ranger was still winning out.

That's interesting though. Ranger still wins out unless the barbarian activates both frenzies.

you have to remember that we are using dwarven axes, weapons that actually loose out slightly under the new barb frenzy compared to crit rage. khopeshes, scimitars, etc would fare better. If they implement the effect on 19,20 the numbers for a daxe won't change, but the khopesh, etc would drop, however.

I actually prefer they implement a X2 crit multiplier on 19,20 (the last row of numbers).

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 10:54 AM
you have to remember that we are using dwarven axes, weapons that actually loose out slightly under the new barb frenzy compared to crit rage. khopeshes, scimitars, etc would fare better. If they implement the effect on 19,20 the numbers for a daxe won't change, but the khopesh, etc would drop, however.

I actually prefer they implement a X2 crit multiplier on 19,20 (the last row of numbers).

Well so far the current implemention is going the 19-20 route.

I haven't seen final numbers on how that affects greensteel weapons across the board, but that kills a lot of the superiority of large threat range weapons. I fully intend on the khopesh winning out... but not by such a large margin that combined with a feat spent and Dwarven axe enhancements would make the comparison 'deeply flawed'.

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 10:57 AM
With a spell on Tuesdays.

The spell part is irrelevant. It's up all the time. It's not like divine favor that you have to reup every 60-120 seconds. I cast it once... for 16 minutes... for 10 sp.

And against favored enemies... yes... that's true.

Good thing for me that I can handle every single raid boss in the game with the exception of Velah with my favored enemies. Giants, undead, evil outsider basically cover every monster in high level quests... and you get to choose your person favorite out of construct, abberation, and elemental for the 4th.

And if you chose abberation... rangers will still probably do better against the other two, due to the crit immunity.

That's not every other Tuesday. That's against 90% of end game content.

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 11:01 AM
The spell part is irrelevant. It's up all the time. It's not like divine favor that you have to reup every 60-120 seconds. I cast it once... for 16 minutes... for 10 sp.

And against favored enemies... yes... that's true.

Good thing for me that I can handle every single raid boss in the game with the exception of Velah with my favored enemies. Giants, undead, evil outsider basically cover every monster in high level quests... and you get to choose your person favorite out of construct, abberation, and elemental for the 4th.

And if you chose abberation... rangers will still probably do better against the other two, due to the crit immunity.

That's not every other Tuesday. That's against 90% of end game content.

See your problem is you are using "facts" and real, honest to god "information from playing the game". It's obvious that neither will do any good here lol

Eudimio
12-11-2008, 11:03 AM
This is a moot discussion anyway.

Rogues outdamage both classes by a wide margin. Rangers are still second-best though.

noinfo
12-11-2008, 11:07 AM
Morning, Wool. Not wrong against every mob in the game.

I just don't need to cast a spell and pick my enemies to do huge damage. I just swing ;).




Careful Wool...

So you don't rage then?

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 11:08 AM
This is a moot discussion anyway.

Rogues outdamage both classes by a wide margin. Rangers are still second-best though.

without aggro on Tuesday? lol, cuz that's what is gonna get crammed down your throat in this thread so get ready for it lol.

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 11:09 AM
without aggro on Tuesday? lol, cuz that's what is gonna get crammed down your throat in this thread so get ready for it lol.

I think Rogue's get free of aggro on Wednesdays actually.

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 11:12 AM
I think Rogue's get free of aggro on Wednesdays actually.

Oh nice, see how us rangers and rogues get along? We even schedule our days to not be gimped so they don't overlap.

Eudimio
12-11-2008, 11:14 AM
without aggro on Tuesday? lol, cuz that's what is gonna get crammed down your throat in this thread so get ready for it lol.

Well, then I'll just say that against crit-immune, non-favored enemies, FIGHTERS out-dps barbarians too.

Gunga
12-11-2008, 11:15 AM
The spell part is irrelevant. It's up all the time. It's not like divine favor that you have to reup every 60-120 seconds. I cast it once... for 16 minutes... for 10 sp.



So let's leave it out if it's irrelevent.



And against favored enemies... yes... that's true.


Pick a mob, almost any mob.


Good thing for me that I can handle every single raid boss in the game with the exception of Velah with my favored enemies. Giants, undead, evil outsider basically cover every monster in high level quests... and you get to choose your person favorite out of construct, abberation, and elemental for the 4th.

Doesn't it even sound ridiculous coming out of your mouth?


And if you chose abberation... rangers will still probably do better against the other two, due to the crit immunity.

Beholders aren't immune to crits.


That's not every other Tuesday. That's against 90% of end game content.

I don't know if I'd go that far. But I would say that it's 99% of the end game content that you would need to dps.

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 11:17 AM
Beholders aren't immune to crits.


You know what beholders are though?

I'll give you a hint. They're not constructs or elementals...

Gunga
12-11-2008, 11:17 AM
So you don't rage then?

Last I checked, that didn't get dispelled.

krud
12-11-2008, 11:19 AM
Well so far the current implemention is going the 19-20 route.

I haven't seen final numbers on how that affects greensteel weapons across the board, but that kills a lot of the superiority of large threat range weapons. I fully intend on the khopesh winning out... but not by such a large margin that combined with a feat spent and Dwarven axe enhancements would make the comparison 'deeply flawed'.

the damage numbers are close enough that I wouldn't consider it a huge win for rangers, especially considering it's against a favored enemy (they should win). Give the barb his greater frenzy and he wins out (albeit at the expense of incoming damage).

As far as khopesh vs Dwarven axe, they are fairly close when including the axe enhancments, but the khopesh still edges out the axe slightly (by ~2-3%)

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 11:21 AM
Last I checked, that didn't get dispelled.

As has already been explained to you. There isn't a lot of end game content that dispels either.

You just find some point to hang onto for dear life. If I had to choose between end game content that was immune to crits... and end game content that dispelled so much that it wasn't worth keeping one spel up.

That's not much of a choice. Of all the raid bosses... we have 2 with fortification, 3 that are immune to crits, and 3 that are fully susceptible to crits.

We have 2 raid bosses that cast dispel. Only one of them casts it enough to be a problem. And that's Velah.

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 11:22 AM
You know what beholders are though?

I'll give you a hint. They're not constructs or elementals...

oh oh can i guess? are they puppies?

Borror0
12-11-2008, 11:22 AM
You know what beholders are though?

I'll give you a hint. They're not constructs or elementals...
Ponies?

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 11:24 AM
the damage numbers are close enough that I wouldn't consider it a huge win for rangers, especially considering it's against a favored enemy (they should win). Give the barb his greater frenzy and he wins out (albeit at the expense of incoming damage).

As far as khopesh vs Dwarven axe, they are fairly close when including the axe enhancments, but the khopesh still edges out the axe slightly (by ~2-3%)

My original goal wasn't to show how vastly more damage rangers did. I was merely saying that barbarians already had a problem not dealing nearly enough damage for their drain on resources. And if we're going to increase their incoming damage by that large a margin... then their damage really does need to be increased a lot more.

Rangers have better AC, evasion, better saves, more versatility with ranged weapons, etc.

Barbarians are supposed to do damage. Pure and simple. And right now... they're really not doing enough. Especially when someone takes into account 800 incoming damage/min on top of what creatures are going to do to them.

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 11:25 AM
Ponies?

of course! now we know where all the little baby beholders went! they are in fact shadow members of my little PWNY!!!!

Vengenance
12-11-2008, 11:26 AM
Ranger's strength:

18 + 6 (item) + 4 (level ups) + 2 (tome) + 2 (Ram's Might) +2 Rage (spell or pot)= 34 Strength


Not that it makes a big differnce, but Ranger's strength should be at 34 and not 32. My ranger is almost permanently raged with either Rage pots or the rage spell on him. That's not even taking into consideration Madstone rage on top of it.

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 11:27 AM
Ranger's strength:

18 + 6 (item) + 4 (level ups) + 2 (tome) + 2 (Ram's Might) +2 Rage (spell or pot)= 34 Strength


Not that it makes a big differnce, but Ranger's strength should be at 34 and not 32. My ranger is almost permanently raged with either Rage pots or the rage spell on him. That's not even taking into consideration Madstone rage on top of it.

Barbarians can use the rage spell and madstone rage too. That's why barbarians were only at 40 strength, instead of the 46 that's fairly easily obtainable.

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 11:29 AM
Ranger's strength:

18 + 6 (item) + 4 (level ups) + 2 (tome) + 2 (Ram's Might) +2 Rage (spell or pot)= 34 Strength


Not that it makes a big differnce, but Ranger's strength should be at 34 and not 32. My ranger is almost permanently raged with either Rage pots or the rage spell on him. That's not even taking into consideration Madstone rage on top of it.

He didn't calculate the rages from pots or boots or choker because those are available to both classes very very easily and simply add numbers that dont matter because it's a 1:1 comparison if both have them.

noinfo
12-11-2008, 11:30 AM
Last I checked, that didn't get dispelled.

Strange didn't you say you just hit? Implying superiority over those who have to click on a spell to increase their potential? Strange barberians seem far more reliant on their rage click then rangers on their rams might. Wonder what would happen to those numbers if we removed rams and baberians rage?

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 11:30 AM
He didn't calculate the rages from pots or boots or choker because those are available to both classes very very easily and simply add numbers that dont matter because it's a 1:1 comparison if both have them.

Well.. to be fair. It's not actually a 1:1 comparison. Rangers get 10% bonus from rage that barbarians don't get. But it just added needless complexity on a verbose solution anyway.

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 11:34 AM
Well.. to be fair. It's not actually a 1:1 comparison. Rangers get 10% bonus from rage that barbarians don't get. But it just added needless complexity on a verbose solution anyway.

Right you are.



Strange didn't you say you just hit? Implying superiority over those who have to click on a spell to increase their potential? Strange barberians seem far more reliant on their rage click then rangers on their rams might. Wonder what would happen to those numbers if we removed rams and baberians rage?

lol

Gunga
12-11-2008, 11:41 AM
As has already been explained to you. There isn't a lot of end game content that dispels either.

As has already been explained to you, most of the new stuff includes a point where some mutterer mutters, "don't buff here."

How is that it costs so little to you, means so little to your game play, but yet exists in every dps number quote?

Meanwhile, I dislike defending the dps of a class because of what they can do on the way to a fight. Garbage.



You just find some point to hang onto for dear life. If I had to choose between end game content that was immune to crits... and end game content that dispelled so much that it wasn't worth keeping one spel up.


This is hardly dear life, Bobby.



That's not much of a choice. Of all the raid bosses... we have 2 with fortification, 3 that are immune to crits, and 3 that are fully susceptible to crits.

We have 2 raid bosses that cast dispel. Only one of them casts it enough to be a problem.


The endgame content that I currently play doesn't include the abbot. I don't see keeping rams up a problem in any of the other endgame fights.

The new stuff coming for the barbs will increase their dps by a substantial amount. If the current dps that your ranger is doing is good enough for you, than you've found your favored class.

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 11:46 AM
As has already been explained to you, most of the new stuff includes a point where some mutterer mutters, "don't buff here."

How is that it costs so little to you, means so little to your game play, but yet exists in every dps number quote?

Meanwhile, I dislike defending the dps of a class because of what they can do on the way to a fight. Garbage.


What are you talking about?

How many times does someone say 'don't buff here', and all the barbarians in the party hit their rage button?

Gunga
12-11-2008, 11:49 AM
Strange didn't you say you just hit? Implying superiority over those who have to click on a spell to increase their potential? Strange barberians seem far more reliant on their rage click then rangers on their rams might. Wonder what would happen to those numbers if we removed rams and baberians rage?

Why not remove favored enemies and summon nature's ally too?

Gunga
12-11-2008, 11:50 AM
What are you talking about?

How many times does someone say 'don't buff here', and all the barbarians in the party hit their rage button?

Now you're getting it. Work it out Bobby.

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 11:52 AM
Now you're getting it. Work it out Bobby.


Doesn't it even sound ridiculous coming out of your mouth?
.

lol

Thrudh
12-11-2008, 11:52 AM
Yeah, I'm really not getting what you're saying here Gunga...

Against favored enemies, rangers do more DPS than barbarians...

That's it... plain and simple.....

And most of the end-game content is a favored enemy....

And there are very few places where buffs are dispelled, and even in those places, favored enemies bonuses aren't dispelled either.

How is this hard for you??

Rangers win....

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 11:53 AM
Now you're getting it. Work it out Bobby.

Hehehe.

I'm working something out alright.

Peace you guys.

Gunga
12-11-2008, 12:06 PM
Yeah, I'm really not getting what you're saying here Gunga...

Against favored enemies, rangers do more DPS than barbarians...

That's it... plain and simple.....

And most of the end-game content is a favored enemy....

And there are very few places where buffs are dispelled, and even in those places, favored enemies bonuses aren't dispelled either.

How is this hard for you??

Rangers win....

It's obviously quite hard for me to fathom how a dps class gets out dps'd by a ranged specialist. But compounding the confusion is the fact that I play mostly barbarians and pwn most of the rangers I run with. I'd go roll a str ranger to experience this anamoly for myself, but I'm wrapped up in too many other builds right now, and by the time I get to it, Turbine will probably get things back into proper perspective.

Gunga
12-11-2008, 12:12 PM
lol

Just saw that. You're on fire, huh. Nice.

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 12:14 PM
It's obviously quite hard for me to fathom how a dps class gets out dps'd by a ranged specialist. But compounding the confusion is the fact that I play mostly barbarians and pwn most of the rangers I run with. I'd go roll a str ranger to experience this anamoly for myself, but I'm wrapped up in too many other builds right now, and by the time I get to it, Turbine will probably get things back into proper perspective.

The ranger in "ranger" doesn't mean ranged man. It's not really an anomaly with the class. the anomaly is with the lack of diversity in mobs at endgame. The only thing that is out of perspective is that Barbs need to be doing MORE dps with the crazy hp of mobs at endgame, I dont argue that barbs SHOULD do more damage that rangers in any circumstance. The argument is that they AREN"T at present time leading by enough of a margin to justify how much of a drain on a party they are. Especially when they cant be the kings of stat damage anymore come mod 9

Thrudh
12-11-2008, 12:18 PM
It's obviously quite hard for me to fathom how a dps class gets out dps'd by a ranged specialist. But compounding the confusion is the fact that I play mostly barbarians and pwn most of the rangers I run with. I'd go roll a str ranger to experience this anamoly for myself, but I'm wrapped up in too many other builds right now, and by the time I get to it, Turbine will probably get things back into proper perspective.

I'm starting to think you're being intentionally obtuse.

You can't be stupid enough to think that ranger = ranged specialist.

Melee rangers is what we're discussing here, and you know that.

The math is pretty easy.... Favored enemies add +12 damage to every swing... That's more than rage adds.

There... we're done... When fighting favored enemies, maxed out strength rangers will do more damage than maxed out strength barbarians, assuming the same gear for both.

And that's how it should be.... Barbarians do better than rangers against non-favored enemies...

The problem is, most of the end-game mobs are favored enemies.

Ilundel
12-11-2008, 12:20 PM
Ranger's do out DPS barbarians on a favored enemy, but only IF:

They have the same to hit versus their enemies AC then the barbarian. (this is not the case most of the time)

They have power attack (not all rangers take it).

Basically Gunga, what i'm saying is that most of the rangers you run into are probably not pimped as much as your barbarian - They probably don't have enough to hit to be able to hit every mob on a 2 or more. If they don't, then there will be a huge difference between you hitting 95% of the time and them hitting 75% of the time. I guarantee that if you would consistently run with a Ranger that has the same gear and the same weapon you have against a favored enemy, you'd loose out. Given of course both are dual wielding DPS weapons. Seriously, the ideal way to compare is to run the math, but this has to include to hit with bonuses versus mob AC.

BTW, Rangers vs Barbarians, there's usually a net 4 points of to hit difference. Rangers being 32 str, Barbarian being 40 and most rangers having taken a Monk level and or rogue level for 2 more bab while taking a +2 to hit from enhancements versus their favored enemy. That can have a huge effect depending on what the AC of the mob is and when you can turn on Power Attack or turn it off (that is if the ranger even has it).

Tolero
12-11-2008, 12:28 PM
*picks up thread and snuggles it* Hello Mr. Thread, you've had some naughty posting behavior in here haven't you? It'll be ok. If it keeps up, you'll get to take a magical journey to see the Gelatinous Cube! *pet pet*

As for the rest of you...

Keep it civil or get Cubed.

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 12:30 PM
*picks up thread and snuggles it*.

ROFL:D are threads furry?

Gunga
12-11-2008, 12:33 PM
The ranger in "ranger" doesn't mean ranged man. It's not really an anomaly with the class. the anomaly is with the lack of diversity in mobs at endgame. The only thing that is out of perspective is that Barbs need to be doing MORE dps with the crazy hp of mobs at endgame, I dont argue that barbs SHOULD do more damage that rangers in any circumstance. The argument is that they AREN"T at present time leading by enough of a margin to justify how much of a drain on a party they are. Especially when they cant be the kings of stat damage anymore come mod 9

Diversity is only part of the problem. Another problem is that the favored enemy choice is far too broad. You're an expert in killing iguanas, so you can kill alligators with the same ease? Garbage.

Tolero
12-11-2008, 12:34 PM
ROFL:D are threads furry?

Well they can get hairy :eek:

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 12:35 PM
Diversity is only part of the problem. Another problem is that the favored enemy choice is far too broad. You're an expert in killing iguanas, so you can kill alligators with the same ease? Garbage.

That might be an argument better suited to the 3.5 discussion board on WoTC site? Favored choices are what they are man.

Gunga
12-11-2008, 12:36 PM
Did Wooley just get pwned by Tolero?! Hillarious.


Reported.

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 12:38 PM
Did Wooley just get pwned by Tolero?! Hillarious.


Reported.

um. i'm pretty sure the whole thread got pwned including you.


reported what? man u like saying that....

Tolero
12-11-2008, 12:39 PM
Take it outside you two *thumps you both*

vtecfiend99
12-11-2008, 12:50 PM
point taken

bobbryan2
12-11-2008, 12:55 PM
It's obviously quite hard for me to fathom how a dps class gets out dps'd by a ranged specialist. But compounding the confusion is the fact that I play mostly barbarians and pwn most of the rangers I run with. I'd go roll a str ranger to experience this anamoly for myself, but I'm wrapped up in too many other builds right now, and by the time I get to it, Turbine will probably get things back into proper perspective.

Run with better rangers?

I haven't run with a barbarian that can pull aggro off me in a long long time. But they also take 3x the healing I do.

Even without the aggro!

Desteria
12-12-2008, 03:22 AM
I was figuring, since the Ranger was still winning out.

That's interesting though. Ranger still wins out unless the barbarian activates both frenzies.

Which is NO supprise to me at all since I've been saying for a long tiem a ranger beats a barb on DPS .......
FB should change that but at a cost of a TONE of self damage....
BUT will tampest 3 change it back the other way??? what about adding the 5th favored enimy bost!!!!!, (i know by it self the 5th favored cant beat the FB rages)...
How will ranger adn barb capstones effect this....

ATM rangers beat barbs period ;)

FB current look has barbs beating rangers at a cost of a tone of self damage...

Desteria
12-12-2008, 03:31 AM
Ranger's strength:

18 + 6 (item) + 4 (level ups) + 2 (tome) + 2 (Ram's Might) +2 Rage (spell or pot)= 34 Strength


Not that it makes a big differnce, but Ranger's strength should be at 34 and not 32. My ranger is almost permanently raged with either Rage pots or the rage spell on him. That's not even taking into consideration Madstone rage on top of it.


He didn't calculate the rages from pots or boots or choker because those are available to both classes very very easily and simply add numbers that dont matter because it's a 1:1 comparison if both have them.

Tecnicaly it;s a 1:1.1 ratio becasue of tempest haste BUT that only a minor gain for the ranger then wehn you look at FB crit mutipliers they would gain SOME amount as well as they get that extra str mroe often, to lazzy to do the actual math atm.

sephiroth1084
12-12-2008, 03:57 AM
Yes... lots of drawbacks.

But I don't think they compete with -900 damage/turn. Wouldn't that be something in a pnp game. Combined with deathless frenzy... might make for a few good suicide attacks.

Actually, I think the PnP Frenzied Berserker would come pretty damn close to doing 900 damage in a round.

18
+5 lvls
+6 item
+5 tome
+4 rage
+10 frenzy
+2 reckless rage (feat out of Races of Stone)
________________
50 Str (+20)



+5 enhancement(+5 2-handed weapon) + 25 Str +100 PA (Leap Attack) = 135

x5 attacks = 675 without weapon damage, or any special modifiers to damage (like holy, bane, whatever), and the PnP FB would have no issue with using a Vicious weapon, since he cannot die from anything but Disintegrate basically while frenzied (just hope the cleric can deliver enough healing to you before your frenzy ends).

Leap Attack doubles your PA damage (or increases the multiplier by 1 in the case of the FB's Supreme PA, as I read it...could mean more damage if read differently) as long as you jump 10 ft. at an opponent first. (feat out of Complete Adventurer)

Shock Trooper is a feat that lets you subtract from your AC rather than your attack bonus when using PA on a charge. (feat out of Complete Warrior)

And there are numerous ways to get a full attack at the end of a charge, but I would go with the lvl 1 barbarian alternate class feature (Unearthed Arcana maybe, or maybe Complete Champion) that let's you drop fast movement for the Pounce ability.

Desteria
12-12-2008, 04:15 AM
Actually, I think the PnP Frenzied Berserker would come pretty damn close to doing 900 damage in a round.

18
+5 lvls
+6 item
+5 tome
+4 rage
+10 frenzy
+2 reckless rage (feat out of Races of Stone)
________________
50 Str (+20)



+5 enhancement(+5 2-handed weapon) + 25 Str +100 PA (Leap Attack) = 135

x5 attacks = 675 without weapon damage, or any special modifiers to damage (like holy, bane, whatever), and the PnP FB would have no issue with using a Vicious weapon, since he cannot die from anything but Disintegrate basically while frenzied (just hope the cleric can deliver enough healing to you before your frenzy ends).

Leap Attack doubles your PA damage (or increases the multiplier by 1 in the case of the FB's Supreme PA, as I read it...could mean more damage if read differently) as long as you jump 10 ft. at an opponent first. (feat out of Complete Adventurer)

Shock Trooper is a feat that lets you subtract from your AC rather than your attack bonus when using PA on a charge. (feat out of Complete Warrior)

And there are numerous ways to get a full attack at the end of a charge, but I would go with the lvl 1 barbarian alternate class feature (Unearthed Arcana maybe, or maybe Complete Champion) that let's you drop fast movement for the Pounce ability.


Ah yess the build the broke 3.5....

hehe ya the lion thing for pounce has isses in 3.5....

I know this build well sicne i had designed a charater almost exacly like that....

Cold_Stele
12-12-2008, 04:27 AM
I have a couple of Barbs and a Ranger so I want to stress I'm coming from neutral ground in this post.

Firstly Ram's - I manage to keep Ram's on around 99% of the time - even on my Barb10/Rgr6. Whilst Raging also of course.

On the way to Hound is the only real exception (on my Ranger, because I'm not raging, it's no trouble to keep spamming Ram's, even if I know I'm going to only have it on for 30 seconds or so before it's dispelled again).

Secondly IMHO the real difference between the two basically boils down to this, when away from a cleric -

Ranger = alive
Barb = dead

If I forget and play my Barb the way I play my Ranger, I get ganked big time.

noinfo
12-12-2008, 05:19 AM
Why not remove favored enemies and summon nature's ally too?

Well I don't remember summon natures ally being calculated into anything anyway so yeah why not, it is a spell after all.

Strange though favoured enemy isn't a clicky, with it I just swing my sword and do lots of damage :-) [really fast like :-)]