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GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 04:55 PM
Is this a case of Developer Spite?

The quest is now difficult enough(part 5) that a party with the gear from the quest is required to complete the quest. Congrats on flipping the bird to new characters, and especially, new players.

Please stop tweaking things when you fix an exploit...

Players: Modify your strat! At least 4 clerics are necessary, and make sure your tanks are TWF Evasion Barbarians with dual Mineral 2 weapons!

As for those of you that bring in a party of all Ranged Rangers, you are doing it right. That seems to be the only way to beat him now(again).

Dirac
12-10-2008, 04:57 PM
Can you be more specific on what is harder?

jamie_lannister
12-10-2008, 04:59 PM
ran it 5 times today and its not harder at all

HeavenlyCloud
12-10-2008, 05:04 PM
Lol what? Nothing have changed.

Do'Urden
12-10-2008, 05:05 PM
Personally I think they should add CR32 Air Elementals to Part 4 and Part 5...you know, just to spice things up :D

Mhykke
12-10-2008, 05:06 PM
Ran it twice today, once on elite, nothing seemed different, except the mobs in 5 move right away towards the party.

Junts
12-10-2008, 05:06 PM
Is this a case of Developer Spite?

The quest is now difficult enough(part 5) that a party with the gear from the quest is required to complete the quest. Congrats on flipping the bird to new characters, and especially, new players.

Please stop tweaking things when you fix an exploit...

Players: Modify your strat! At least 4 clerics are necessary, and make sure your tanks are TWF Evasion Barbarians with dual Mineral 2 weapons!

As for those of you that bring in a party of all Ranged Rangers, you are doing it right. That seems to be the only way to beat him now(again).


are you joking? until a month ago we all fought the 4 lieutenants right away anyway, other than that change, the quest is no harder

i just completed a run on hard where the main dps toon in the group (a well-made wf barb) went ld in part 1, never returned, and the wizard (we had 2 casters) with fogs/debuffs went ld after part 4 and did not return

we still completed the run in about 75-80 minutes and zero major potions used (2 clerics)

they did not make this raid harder; they just stopped our one silly twink tactic that made it easier for the last month or so (run to the corner), so you have to kite them again

big

deal

whiners

Dexxaan
12-10-2008, 05:12 PM
Ran it twice today, once on elite, nothing seemed different, except the mobs in 4 move right away towards the party.

Awesome. Another great spot to have an Intimi-Tank get aggro while everyone else buffs.

CanĀ“t wait to get home and Intimidate - Turtle up - Vorpal Cleave - Intimidate...... rinse and repeat

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 05:13 PM
ran it 5 times today and its not harder at all


We got bogged down by Death Penalties and only 2 clerics, with a Bard backing up heals... we had a lot of fighters, but Big A was regenerating and the blades were ripping us apart... they were everywhere!

As for those characters, were they using non-greensteel weaponry?

Lithic
12-10-2008, 05:13 PM
Ran it twice today, once on elite, nothing seemed different, except the mobs in 4 move right away towards the party.

In pt 4? So they kill you while you zone in? Or do you mean the lieutenants in pt 5 go to you no matter if you run to the corner and rez?

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 05:14 PM
I apologize to all the veterans and powergamers here on the forums, since 95% of you here have been here for ages and have characters twinked to the hilt...


The Shroud is no different for you all. We had 2 newbies in the PuG and they were right ****ed off.

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 05:15 PM
In pt 4? So they kill you while you zone in? Or do you mean the lieutenants in pt 5 go to you no matter if you run to the corner and rez?

They roam around, no big deal. Grabbing aggro instantly is typical in a PuG, especially with folks who haven't done Shroud much yet.

Also, part 4 altar no longer moves dead party members up to the part 4 arena... they stay dead in part 5, and are robbed of loot. No more running it for the part 4 chests...

Vorn
12-10-2008, 05:16 PM
H'mmmm, just ran it in a pick up group, on normal. Two clerics, no pots, a couple of scrolls I think. Our sorc had to drop due to a fire alarm. Only thing different I saw was that he followed us out of the blades in part 4 and that was actually very helpful, and part 5 the lieutenants came right at us, but we split them up and killed them easily enough.
:confused:

Kiranselie
12-10-2008, 05:17 PM
I ran it today, once on normal (first time through on that character, which means no greensteel at all) and once on elite w/ a character that had greensteel, and iir we short manned it on normal. Neither time did we take more than three clerics, and the second time (on elite) i was the only evasion character there. Completed both runs w/ minimal deaths (except when we were messing w/ each other). The raid isnt harder, not by a long shot.

jamie_lannister
12-10-2008, 05:18 PM
We got bogged down by Death Penalties and only 2 clerics, with a Bard backing up heals... we had a lot of fighters, but Big A was regenerating and the blades were ripping us apart... they were everywhere!

As for those characters, were they using non-greensteel weaponry?

id say about half the party had gs give or take 1 or 2 in each run.sounds to me like you had clerics that wernt very good mass healers or didnt know how to use the pools while they heal or maybe both.very rarely nowadays do i see any group bring more than 2 clerics into the shroud unless its an elite run.

Kiranselie
12-10-2008, 05:20 PM
In pt 4? So they kill you while you zone in? Or do you mean the lieutenants in pt 5 go to you no matter if you run to the corner and rez?


As soon as you res in part 5, youve got just enough time to get off a mass dw, maybe a mass protect, then the lieutenants are on you. Easy enough to kite them tho.

Junts
12-10-2008, 05:20 PM
In pt 4? So they kill you while you zone in? Or do you mean the lieutenants in pt 5 go to you no matter if you run to the corner and rez?


its the second thing thats true, not the first; the lieutenants move right away even if you try to twink the corner, the part 4 pull is the same

in fact, nothing changed in pt 4 except what happens to people who died when the altar is attuned now pop back without their stones, not alive, to the center of the arena - hae someone there to res them! they leash in 10 sec

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 05:20 PM
are you joking? until a month ago we all fought the 4 lieutenants right away anyway, other than that change, the quest is no harder

i just completed a run on hard where the main dps toon in the group (a well-made wf barb) went ld in part 1, never returned, and the wizard (we had 2 casters) with fogs/debuffs went ld after part 4 and did not return

we still completed the run in about 75-80 minutes and zero major potions used (2 clerics)

they did not make this raid harder; they just stopped our one silly twink tactic that made it easier for the last month or so (run to the corner), so you have to kite them again

big

deal

whiners

I want to see your party makeup... we had some solid hitters and a good set of Evasion to back it up(2 Assassins dishing rather major DPS on top of the THF barbs), though the other tanks didn't help much... our Clerics did a pretty bang-up job too.. the pools dried up before they could go back for mana the second time... had to use a birthday cake because Big A was hitting for 36-60 damage at GTWF speed, on top of those DBFs tearing a now hole in the fighter HP bars. Death Pen pretty much killed the entire party when Big A was at 28%

We gave up when we saw his HP approach 50% again.

Junts
12-10-2008, 05:22 PM
I want to see your party makeup... we had some solid hitters and a good set of Evasion to back it up(2 Assassins dishing rather major DPS on top of the THF barbs), though the other tanks didn't help much... our Clerics did a pretty bang-up job too.. the pools dried up before they could go back for mana the second time... had to use a birthday cake because Big A was hitting for 36-60 damage at GTWF speed, on top of those DBFs tearing a now hole in the fighter HP bars. Death Pen pretty much killed the entire party when Big A was at 28%

We gave up when we saw his HP approach 50% again.

sounds like you guys failed to stack concealment spells on him to me, as his melee should never be that big an issue if you are

Silverjade
12-10-2008, 05:23 PM
I apologize to all the veterans and powergamers here on the forums, since 95% of you here have been here for ages and have characters twinked to the hilt...


The Shroud is no different for you all. We had 2 newbies in the PuG and they were right ****ed off.

I am not by any means "uber" but i ran it today with a pug with a clr on his 2cd time and it went really smoothly did not notice any thing out of the normal part 1 was fast and like normal the small sharp i am looking for did not drop. parts 2 3 4 and 5 where no diffrent.

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 05:26 PM
sounds like you guys failed to stack concealment spells on him to me, as his melee should never be that big an issue if you are

Actually both sorcs were DPS and Instadeath, so didn't use any concealment spells at all... we did have Displacement, but that seemed to do absolutely nothing. He may have perm True Seeing now as well...

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 05:27 PM
I am not by any means "uber" but i ran it today with a pug with a clr on his 2cd time and it went really smoothly did not notice any thing out of the normal part 1 was fast and like normal the small sharp i am looking for did not drop. parts 2 3 4 and 5 where no diffrent.

Did you see most of the melees holding Greensteel weapons? If so your point is moot.

A party should not need the weapons resultant of a quest in order to complete said quest to make said weapons. It's a self-terminating process.

Thrudh
12-10-2008, 05:30 PM
Big A regenerates in Part 5?

Vorn
12-10-2008, 05:32 PM
Harry has always had true seeing, though cloud concealment is different from blur/displacement.

The part 4 chests can still be gotten, if you don't die, w/o going on to part 5. If someone dies, at the present, and it's in the known issues list, you have to complete part 5 and then go back through the portal to part 4 to pick up the chests.

Sometime we don't win, for whatever reason. It's what makes it exciting!!!
:)

PS, I did think he had a tiny bit of regeneration in part 5, just noticed his hp flick upwards once and thought to myself, what was that? Pit Fiends in the MM do regen 5 hp per round. Maybe that was the trouble? I thought it was just lag on my display.

Angelus_dead
12-10-2008, 05:32 PM
Lol what? Nothing have changed.
What's changed is that people are out of practice. They might actually have to open their eyes to remember what to do.

Thrudh
12-10-2008, 05:32 PM
Actually both sorcs were DPS and Instadeath, so didn't use any concealment spells at all... we did have Displacement, but that seemed to do absolutely nothing. He may have perm True Seeing now as well...

FYI, this is why I prefer wizards....

Very few sorcs will have ALL the debuffs and the fog spells.... But every newb wizard will, as long as you tell them what to spells to bring into Part 5

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 05:32 PM
Big A regenerates in Part 5?

Before the update, no. After, yes.

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 05:33 PM
What's changed is that people are out of practice. They might actually have to open their eyes to remember what to do.

Let's forget that you are at a Developer level of knowledge regarding the quest for a moment, shall we?

Kraak
12-10-2008, 05:34 PM
Is this a case of Developer Spite?

The quest is now difficult enough(part 5) that a party with the gear from the quest is required to complete the quest. Congrats on flipping the bird to new characters, and especially, new players.

Please stop tweaking things when you fix an exploit...

Players: Modify your strat! At least 4 clerics are necessary, and make sure your tanks are TWF Evasion Barbarians with dual Mineral 2 weapons!

As for those of you that bring in a party of all Ranged Rangers, you are doing it right. That seems to be the only way to beat him now(again).


Hmmm - we took him down to 5% in the first round today. Only 2 clerics. Not sure where this is coming from, other than the lag sux a big ......well it sux big.

Kraak
12-10-2008, 05:37 PM
I apologize to all the veterans and powergamers here on the forums, since 95% of you here have been here for ages and have characters twinked to the hilt...


The Shroud is no different for you all. We had 2 newbies in the PuG and they were right ****ed off.


My +5 holyburst greatsword cost my pali 1400'ish gold. :D

Thrudh
12-10-2008, 05:39 PM
If it's true that Big A regenerates now, that IS a big deal for the more casual PUGs

Dirac
12-10-2008, 05:40 PM
I'm trying to understand anything that has changed; surely no one cares how easy or hard it is for any particular groups. what I hear is the following:

1. Harry regenerates in part 5.
2. Lutenents immediately aggro regardless of where you rez in part 4.

But some haven't noticed any changes.

confirmation or rebuttle or other changes, anyone?

Silverjade
12-10-2008, 05:42 PM
Did you see most of the melees holding Greensteel weapons? If so your point is moot.

A party should not need the weapons resultant of a quest in order to complete said quest to make said weapons. It's a self-terminating process.

How would my point be moot? to be honest i don't look really hard at others weapons what would be the point?. A few might have had gs but if you have trans theirs not that much of a major amount of damgeing depending on what the weapons where.

I think now that you just got in a bad pug nothing more and are ranting for no good reason if it was a bad run get over it and run it again with a better party.

Shyver
12-10-2008, 05:42 PM
I'm trying to understand anything that has changed; surely no one cares how easy or hard it is for any particular groups. what I hear is the following:

1. Harry regenerates in part 5.
2. Lutenents immediately aggro regardless of where you rez in part 4.

But some haven't noticed any changes.

confirmation or rebuttle or other changes, anyone?

I think they are talking about the Luitenanats in part 5, which was announced in the release notes.

As for the regeneration in part 5, if that is in fact added then it was snuck in there.

DaveyCrockett
12-10-2008, 05:43 PM
So you start a thread to make false claims about the Shroud being amped up in difficulty, and then label/attack anyone that states that you are dead wrong?

Harry moves in Part 4, Lts attack in Part 5, dead party members in Part 4 don't get the shrine before Part 5.

If those little changes made the Shroud that much more difficult for you, then perhaps you need some coffee before the next one?

Thrudh
12-10-2008, 05:45 PM
I'm trying to understand anything that has changed; surely no one cares how easy or hard it is for any particular groups. what I hear is the following:

1. Harry regenerates in part 5.
2. Lutenents immediately aggro regardless of where you rez in part 4.

But some haven't noticed any changes.

confirmation or rebuttle or other changes, anyone?

I think Part 2 has been confirmed, and that's fine... that will make Part 5 interesting again...

Part 1 is more troublesome

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 05:45 PM
So you start a thread to make false claims about the Shroud being amped up in difficulty, and then label/attack anyone that states that you are dead wrong?

Harry moves in Part 4, Lts attack in Part 5, dead party members in Part 4 don't get the shrine before Part 5.

If those little changes made the Shroud that much more difficult for you, then perhaps you need some coffee before the next one?

I don't see what I am doing here as being in any way hostile. I am simply using base logic to redirect the concepts trying to derail this thread.

As for the difficulty being amped, little changes can go a long way.

This quest is still extremely unfriendly to new characters and new players.

A substantial amp that Powergamers and Veterans would notice would be to perhaps add Suulomades into the end fight with Arraetrikos and allow them to Heal one another. That's rather far from what I am talking about.

boldarblood
12-10-2008, 05:45 PM
I want to see your party makeup... we had some solid hitters and a good set of Evasion to back it up(2 Assassins dishing rather major DPS on top of the THF barbs), though the other tanks didn't help much... our Clerics did a pretty bang-up job too.. the pools dried up before they could go back for mana the second time... had to use a birthday cake because Big A was hitting for 36-60 damage at GTWF speed, on top of those DBFs tearing a now hole in the fighter HP bars. Death Pen pretty much killed the entire party when Big A was at 28%

We gave up when we saw his HP approach 50% again.

Sounds like the party you had did not work well together, or had some bad players. It happens, deal with it and move on.

Dirac
12-10-2008, 05:46 PM
Ok, sorry mistake before, let me sum up:

Things that have not changed (I've seen this before):
1. Harry has true seeing.
2. Harry moves in part 4.

Things that have changed:
1. sub-bosses immediately aggro in part 5 (sorry said 4 before)
2. Harry regenerates.
3. If you die in part 4, you do not get to use the shrine before part 5 (this will be fixed in future).

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 05:47 PM
Sounds like the party you had did not work well together, or had some bad players. It happens, deal with it and move on.

If we just leave it alone, what happens when DDO Relaunches and bunch of new players fill our ranks again?

Empty streets... tumbleweeds blow by.

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 05:49 PM
Ok, sorry mistake before, let me sum up:

Things that have not changed (I've seen this before):
1. Harry has true seeing.
2. Harry moves in part 4.

Things that have changed:
1. sub-bosses immediately aggro in part 5 (sorry said 4 before)
2. Harry regenerates.
3. If you die in part 4, you do not get to use the shrine before part 5 (this will be fixed in future).
4. Harry now has GTWF on his melee attacks
5. Harry's Hitbox appears to have grown slightly. He can now reach the length of 15 Warforged laid on their backs.
6. The blades are now 5 times as fast and are still unblockable

Fixed. Any other small adjustments of note? If we missed anything, it's best to add it while we have a thread left.

Elaril
12-10-2008, 05:52 PM
Five times as fast :eek: :confused:. Man, that's fast. It's a small wonder that they could even be seen at all. Were they were doing five...no ten times as much damage as well?

boldarblood
12-10-2008, 05:55 PM
If we just leave it alone, what happens when DDO Relaunches and bunch of new players fill our ranks again?

Empty streets... tumbleweeds blow by.

Your sig is very ironic right now. ;)


"Cowards are afraid of change, fools flee from a challenge they can surmount. The bold change the future, but seldom consider its welfare. The wrathful spite all with their unfocused fury, and the meek shy away. Lost are the ways of true wisdom, held by only few."

Angelus_dead
12-10-2008, 06:00 PM
Big A regenerates in Part 5?
Something like that would make the upcoming Frenzied Berserker more valuable, because it's more important to have high DPS from your side even if it increases the damage you suffer.

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 06:01 PM
Your sig is very ironic right now. ;)


"Cowards are afraid of change, fools flee from a challenge they can surmount. The bold change the future, but seldom consider its welfare. The wrathful spite all with their unfocused fury, and the meek shy away. Lost are the ways of true wisdom, held by only few."

Only if seen by a simple man, raised by the ways of the world and stained with the suffering of an irresponsible society.

Sorry, I'm being too serious right now ;p

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 06:02 PM
Something like that would make the upcoming Frenzied Berserker more valuable, because it's more important to have high DPS from your side even if it increases the damage you suffer.

I did have that suspicion, that things may have been tweaked pre-MOD 9 to balance the Shroud for lvl 20's... In which case...

For a lvl 20 Raid group(all capped), Normal should be pretty ok... for those decorated with piles of Greensteel equipment and hoards of Ingredients, it should be a joke.


Even still, I reinforce the point: New players should not need to rely on 10-11 veterans to have the gear needed to complete.

Dirac
12-10-2008, 06:06 PM
Fixed. Any other small adjustments of note? If we missed anything, it's best to add it while we have a thread left.

Numbers 4-6 that you added seem a little harder to say definitively on a single run; would like to hear multiple confirmation. Certainly worth looking out for, I appreciate the heads-up.

Turial
12-10-2008, 06:11 PM
They roam around, no big deal. Grabbing aggro instantly is typical in a PuG, especially with folks who haven't done Shroud much yet.

Also, part 4 altar no longer moves dead party members up to the part 4 arena... they stay dead in part 5, and are robbed of loot. No more running it for the part 4 chests...

Ah so your clerics died in part 4 which means they could not use the shrine before part 5. Thus you had less resources then parties are typically used to for the red named fight.

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 06:16 PM
Ah so your clerics died in part 4 which means they could not use the shrine before part 5. Thus you had less resources then parties are typically used to for the red named fight.

One died, the other spent his reserves on keeping the tanks alive... so we were pretty hard-hit by bad rolls and situations already.

Anthios888
12-10-2008, 06:17 PM
Wait, what?
Just pugged it on HARD on Ghallanda with a group of 10. Few evasion. New people. Mistakes. 2 clerics. 0 mana pots.
What?

Junts
12-10-2008, 06:26 PM
Actually both sorcs were DPS and Instadeath, so didn't use any concealment spells at all... we did have Displacement, but that seemed to do absolutely nothing. He may have perm True Seeing now as well...

he has always had the true seeing, and displacement has never mattered

and that would be why; the difference between a hard shroud and a moderate shroud is solid fog, and the difference between a hard shroud and sleeping through the shroud where each cleric can heal 2+ rounds of pt 4 (on hard!) is having solid, acid, cloudkill on him all the time (add fog cloud or stinking cloud if you want to be really ridiculous)

its more valuable than caster dps, since it makes your clerics last exponentially longer

also, most of your 'changes' were either always true or are not true, eg, his attack range was always something equivalent to 5-6 character body lengths when he sgot the shadow large form in pt 5 - 3 times the length of the altar, if you are at the right angle to his wing to be struck by it.

i saw no instance of pt 5 regeneration and noticed no significant time differences in either run (i just completed my second, a ~35 minute normal run).

people can be ressed if they die in 4 - activating the altar moves their ghosts to the center of the arena, but not their stones, so you need groupmembers present to resurrect them before their timers go (and, what sucks is, your timer starts during the loadscreen, eg, they have roughly 5-6 seconds to accept).


the blades are not faster - what happened was that you had a lagspike during which they moved through you and warped to their new location (this happens all the time, even before)

GlassCannon
12-10-2008, 06:46 PM
he has always had the true seeing, and displacement has never mattered

the blades are not faster - what happened was that you had a lagspike during which they moved through you and warped to their new location (this happens all the time, even before)

First - Fabrication. I used to see Misses due to Displacement. DBF ignores Displace. I have an active Combat Log below my Focus Orb 20 lines in length. I speedread. You probably never checked the log, just thought that since you were getting hit so often you might not be gaining from Displacement. I admit, those fireballs do get right through and tricked me for a while, but I guarantee that before this update Displacement did work.

Second - His attack range was silly as I last recalled, twice his height in range, but hitting someone on the back wall from the other side of the area with melee attacks? Probably lag, but maybe a bugged hitbox too.

Third - The blades used to just slowly move around and gave you a chance to dodge them, now they move around like a Hasted Monk 16. Yes, I was said Monk and they did indeed move around much like I did - fast as hell.

Also, Hard? Maybe for a time Hard is the new Normal. I recall a few other quests wherein the difficulty was reversed for a while due to minor tweaks...

Additionally, the Fog tricks should not be made mandatory, but they do indeed help.

Zenako
12-10-2008, 07:00 PM
Additionally, the Fog tricks should not be made mandatory, but they do indeed help.

Considering using Fogs as tricks makes as much sense as saying Haste is a trick too. It is a significant part of what matters in fights like these and since Fogs are real mist and not an illusion which means that True sight does not avoid the miss chances.

Junts
12-10-2008, 07:03 PM
First - Fabrication. I used to see Misses due to Displacement. DBF ignores Displace. I have an active Combat Log below my Focus Orb 20 lines in length. I speedread. You probably never checked the log, just thought that since you were getting hit so often you might not be gaining from Displacement. I admit, those fireballs do get right through and tricked me for a while, but I guarantee that before this update Displacement did work.

Second - His attack range was silly as I last recalled, twice his height in range, but hitting someone on the back wall from the other side of the area with melee attacks? Probably lag, but maybe a bugged hitbox too.

Third - The blades used to just slowly move around and gave you a chance to dodge them, now they move around like a Hasted Monk 16. Yes, I was said Monk and they did indeed move around much like I did - fast as hell.

Also, Hard? Maybe for a time Hard is the new Normal. I recall a few other quests wherein the difficulty was reversed for a while due to minor tweaks...

Additionally, the Fog tricks should not be made mandatory, but they do indeed help.

i play a toon with 64 ac during pitfiend fights; i don't get hit that fast

the only raid boss that doesn't ignore blur and displacement is the stormreaver.

boldarblood
12-10-2008, 07:05 PM
First - Fabrication. I used to see Misses due to Displacement. DBF ignores Displace. I have an active Combat Log below my Focus Orb 20 lines in length. I speedread. You probably never checked the log, just thought that since you were getting hit so often you might not be gaining from Displacement. I admit, those fireballs do get right through and tricked me for a while, but I guarantee that before this update Displacement did work.


Displacement has never worked on him.

Aerniel
12-10-2008, 07:07 PM
seriously glass?....


buck...


up....


wuss...

Mhykke
12-10-2008, 07:22 PM
In pt 4? So they kill you while you zone in? Or do you mean the lieutenants in pt 5 go to you no matter if you run to the corner and rez?

Sorry, meant 5.

Angelus_dead
12-10-2008, 07:24 PM
First - Fabrication. I used to see Misses due to Displacement. DBF ignores Displace. I have an active Combat Log below my Focus Orb 20 lines in length. I speedread. You probably never checked the log, just thought that since you were getting hit so often you might not be gaining from Displacement. I admit, those fireballs do get right through and tricked me for a while, but I guarantee that before this update Displacement did work.
Quoted for Quoted.

Turren
12-10-2008, 07:41 PM
I have ran 4 completions today and not once seen him regenerate in part 5. Seems the same to me other than the known issue.

Mhykke
12-10-2008, 07:51 PM
I apologize to all the veterans and powergamers here on the forums, since 95% of you here have been here for ages and have characters twinked to the hilt...


The Shroud is no different for you all. We had 2 newbies in the PuG and they were right ****ed off.


I apologize for offering my opinion if I noticed a change or not.

Pyromaniac
12-10-2008, 07:59 PM
Its not April 1st is it? This is a serious post?

PaintHorseCowboy
12-10-2008, 08:00 PM
Players: Modify your strat! At least 4 clerics are necessary, and make sure your tanks are TWF Evasion Barbarians with dual Mineral 2 weapons!




Or bring one cleric who actually knows what he's doing....

...and a couple of tanks who can do some decent DPS.

Junts
12-10-2008, 08:58 PM
oh, you wanted to know the group makeup, lets see if i can remember :P

my paladin, berzerger (a twf piercing-specced barb, the one who went ld in pt 1), one thf barb, one barb i never looked closely enough at to see the weapons of :P, three rangers (1 human dps build, one halfling something, and i forget the last), two clerics, a warforged sorc, a wizard (ld after pt 4, had to use our own fog clickies for 5), a spellsinger bard.


straight pugged, only 4 people from any guild (mine)

Inspire
12-10-2008, 09:09 PM
Also, part 4 altar no longer moves dead party members up to the part 4 arena... they stay dead in part 5, and are robbed of loot. No more running it for the part 4 chests...

Hmm, did they take the Portals out of part 5 after the quest is completed?

Mhykke
12-10-2008, 09:33 PM
Hmm, did they take the Portals out of part 5 after the quest is completed?

Nope.

Aesop
12-10-2008, 09:48 PM
My one and only noted issue was with the way the death penalty is applied. I got spacked in part 4 and thus had to wait til the end... however when i was finally raised I suffered from a 2 death death penalty... even though I only died once.


Seems something may be off in that


Aesop

Tin_Dragon
12-10-2008, 09:51 PM
Is this a case of Developer Spite?

The quest is now difficult enough(part 5) that a party with the gear from the quest is required to complete the quest. Congrats on flipping the bird to new characters, and especially, new players.

Please stop tweaking things when you fix an exploit...

Players: Modify your strat! At least 4 clerics are necessary, and make sure your tanks are TWF Evasion Barbarians with dual Mineral 2 weapons!

As for those of you that bring in a party of all Ranged Rangers, you are doing it right. That seems to be the only way to beat him now(again).


Dude I did it 5 times today, with 1 caster, and 2 clerics each time.

Guess what, other than after running to the pool, getting a couple mass buffs (which there is plenty of time for) you now KITE like we used too BEFORE running to pool method (lol) and all goes well, heck in 3 of runs, we had at least 1 cleric if not both at 75% or lower mana, still only saw 2 deaths in 5 all day.

Although, tonight, after 8pm EST, the LAG was HORRID, we had 2 die in lag in part 4 in 5th run. That was nasty to see, but not breaking more than usual

Tin_Dragon
12-10-2008, 09:51 PM
Its not April 1st is it? This is a serious post?

Sadly i think so

MissErres
12-10-2008, 10:21 PM
Is this a case of Developer Spite?

The quest is now difficult enough(part 5) that a party with the gear from the quest is required to complete the quest. Congrats on flipping the bird to new characters, and especially, new players.

Please stop tweaking things when you fix an exploit...

Players: Modify your strat! At least 4 clerics are necessary, and make sure your tanks are TWF Evasion Barbarians with dual Mineral 2 weapons!

As for those of you that bring in a party of all Ranged Rangers, you are doing it right. That seems to be the only way to beat him now(again).

Hmmm... 5 Shroud runs today with the usual 2 clerics, 2 casters, 1 bard and an assortment of melee/range. All went as smoothly as they always have. Maybe the problem isn't with the Shroud or greensteel weapons. :rolleyes: Just a thought.

Clay
12-10-2008, 10:51 PM
The sky is falling!!!

THE SKY IS FALLING!!!


T H E .. S K Y .. I S .. F A L L I N G ! ! !

Lehrman
12-10-2008, 11:02 PM
Ok currently if you die in part4, when the altar is activated for part 5's portal, you rez/die immediately. This means you will have at least 2 death penalties if you died in part 4. If you tried to cheat your way to a chest, you get 3.

In part 5, you can not flee to a corner to avoid being spotted by the bosses.

I did not notice if the pit fiend as regenerating in part 5. He did not seem to be, but we brought boatloads of DPS.

Forgot to mention, ran shroud 8 times today. No problems.

stockwizard5
12-10-2008, 11:03 PM
Well we just did runs until my eyes bled (guild and guild+pug) ...

I only see two differences (and unfortunately the lag, especially the high DPS version, wasn't one of them)

1. Part 4 - Harry occasionally (more than before) wants to wander from center
2. Part 5 - The 4 Lieutenants aggro right away

Note 1: I understand that dying in Part 4 is different but we didn't see it
Note 2: The increase to-hit from last mod are still present

Summary: I have no idea what the OP is talking about :eek:

Delt
12-10-2008, 11:13 PM
its the second thing thats true, not the first; the lieutenants move right away even if you try to twink the corner, the part 4 pull is the same

in fact, nothing changed in pt 4 except what happens to people who died when the altar is attuned now pop back without their stones, not alive, to the center of the arena - hae someone there to res them! they leash in 10 sec

Has the term "twink" been given some random new meaning I'm not aware of?

Oh, and just to add my voice to the mix, ran four quick shrouds today - didn't notice a single difference other than the fact someone needs to pull aggro and kite at first in part 5 now...not sure what the OP is going on about.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-10-2008, 11:18 PM
Just finished a all WF shroud pug. Went very smooth, didn't notice any real increase in difficulty.

The bug where people aren't rez'd right after a death in pt4 is a pain, but that's about it. Really enjoyed the lieutenants noticing we were there and not just letting us buff for a couple minutes before attacking in pt 5.

Boldrin
12-10-2008, 11:22 PM
Nothing changed for me. I never ran away from them to begin with. Fight like a man don't be a coward.

Blazer
12-10-2008, 11:26 PM
Nothing changed for me. I never ran away from them to begin with. Fight like a man don't be a coward.

Same here and I second the sentiment.

Delt
12-10-2008, 11:32 PM
Oh, and on the point about his regen:

I remember way back when they first released the Shroud (which was just before I took a long DDO break), he had a small level of regen. A few of our early runs went bad and left a few ranged types as the only ones who could still/safely hit him - with sub par weapons, they couldn't out DPS his regen. I remember sitting in that fight for 1hour+ watching a few guys plink away until they ran outta ammo. Good times.

Unless they took out his regen at some point after that (possible, since I wasn't here to read about it), I'd imagine he's always had that ability - just player tactics and weaponry evolved to a point where it is no longer even noticable...unless you are runnng in a very poor group - which it sounds like the OP was.

Just a guess.

Shyver
12-10-2008, 11:52 PM
Ran the shroud twice tonight and other than the known changes and some EPIC lag nothing was out of the ordinary, and no noticable regeneration in part 5.

al73r
12-10-2008, 11:58 PM
No problems in shroud here. Give me time though!

kinar
12-11-2008, 12:26 AM
his regen isn't new...

I was in a group about a month ago where he actually gained hp over the course of about 5 mins...like others have said, most groups just don't see this because thier dps is far higher than his regen (I would estimate it at being around 100-200hp/sec)

Quikster
12-11-2008, 11:05 AM
I didn't notice any stealth changes, only the known which were released in the patch notes.

I have been on runs BEFORE the patch where Red moves around a lot in pt 4. One run I remember he hunted a caster with no mercy into a few different corners lol. Poor guy couldn't get away :)

CSFurious
12-11-2008, 11:23 AM
i think that you can get transmuting or holy burst weapons outside of the shroud

i have also heard that silver works

it sounds like you were playing with weaksauce

they need to go farm the gianthold & acquire a better armory

that is all


Did you see most of the melees holding Greensteel weapons? If so your point is moot.

A party should not need the weapons resultant of a quest in order to complete said quest to make said weapons. It's a self-terminating process.

Vengenance
12-11-2008, 11:29 AM
I ran this raid twice last night and I didn't detect any difference. The DPS lag was still there and it made healing in part 4 and 5 a little difficult, but no issues. I ran the first raid with my DPS Ranger and the second with my cleric, both raids went incredibly smooth.

Dimz
12-11-2008, 11:34 AM
Is this a case of Developer Spite?

The quest is now difficult enough(part 5) that a party with the gear from the quest is required to complete the quest. Congrats on flipping the bird to new characters, and especially, new players.

Please stop tweaking things when you fix an exploit...

Players: Modify your strat! At least 4 clerics are necessary, and make sure your tanks are TWF Evasion Barbarians with dual Mineral 2 weapons!

As for those of you that bring in a party of all Ranged Rangers, you are doing it right. That seems to be the only way to beat him now(again).

I just soloed healed on my cleric earlier yesterday... so, it seems like it was before. No deaths in part 4 or 5 also.

Dimz:confused:

Vanda
12-11-2008, 11:40 AM
Silver does indeed bypass the DR, just as it does on all devils. When running my gimp rouge I buy a stack of silver bolts for a holy burst repeater. I get all red numbers, its not that tough.

There are plenty of transmuters to be found. I put up two transmuters (pure good or righteousness) on the auction house just yesterday and I think they will go for well under 20K plat if they sell at all. (Starting price is below the MSRP on the items stats page).

Aside from the lag, we did fine. I think we had 4 deaths in part 5, but that was all lag. I simply would see a full red bar and then *DINK* a guy is dead, despite spamming mass cures.

Nott
12-11-2008, 01:47 PM
If we just leave it alone, what happens when DDO Relaunches and bunch of new players fill our ranks again?

Empty streets... tumbleweeds blow by.I think you may be exaggerating a little (where by 'little' I mean 'hyperbolic to reality'). Your main complaint is that people without GS weapons cannot contribute to the end fight, and with enough undergeared people you won't have a chance at completion? Sounds to me a lot like how things were when the Shroud (a level 17 quest, by the way) was first released. People had to work through it, earn their lower tier items, and with each they became that much more effective. Fast forward to today, and if you're the only person without greensteel you're likely to receive the first two power shards on your very first run! This also completely ignores items received from Hound, VoD, and DT armor.

Sorry, but the sky is not falling.

DoctorWhofan
12-11-2008, 01:51 PM
id say about half the party had gs give or take 1 or 2 in each run.sounds to me like you had clerics that wernt very good mass healers or didnt know how to use the pools while they heal or maybe both.very rarely nowadays do i see any group bring more than 2 clerics into the shroud unless its an elite run.

That was my thought. Even when I went in there for the firsttime a couple weeks ago, I only lost two people. A good cleric shouldn't have issues

moops
12-11-2008, 01:53 PM
This is a Festivus joke, right? I ran it 6 times yesterday--5 of the groups were not ideal at all. We never had more than 2 clerics, and, for one run we pretty much only had one cleric because the other cleric never healed--or anything. Just as easy as it was before.

Aspenor
12-11-2008, 01:56 PM
Is this a case of Developer Spite?

The quest is now difficult enough(part 5) that a party with the gear from the quest is required to complete the quest. Congrats on flipping the bird to new characters, and especially, new players.

Please stop tweaking things when you fix an exploit...

Players: Modify your strat! At least 4 clerics are necessary, and make sure your tanks are TWF Evasion Barbarians with dual Mineral 2 weapons!

As for those of you that bring in a party of all Ranged Rangers, you are doing it right. That seems to be the only way to beat him now(again).

lol you always overreact. you must cause a whole lot of party whipes.

tinyelvis
12-11-2008, 02:03 PM
You guys are not very attentive if you didnt notice the changes. A couple I saw are,

a) Part IV blades have new pattern. This may actually make it easier.
b) Part V Mobs attack party all at once requiring a kit'r. Not really a big deal.

Sure the sky is not going to fall, and it really is not any more difficult but why change the thing at all. Nothing positive can come from it.

gfunk
12-11-2008, 02:04 PM
exactly the same as before as far as i can tell.

Osharan_Tregarth
12-11-2008, 02:32 PM
My one and only noted issue was with the way the death penalty is applied. I got spacked in part 4 and thus had to wait til the end... however when i was finally raised I suffered from a 2 death death penalty... even though I only died once.


Seems something may be off in that


Aesop

Using the altar (which previously raised the dead party members) kills the dead members from part 4 all over again currently. You'll see the messages pop up that your dead party members have died... Again.

I haven't experimented yet to see if you could do it over and over and over again, but I'm sure someone will try it out at some point.

wamjratl1
12-11-2008, 02:34 PM
We got bogged down by Death Penalties and only 2 clerics, with a Bard backing up heals... we had a lot of fighters, but Big A was regenerating and the blades were ripping us apart... they were everywhere!

As for those characters, were they using non-greensteel weaponry?

This was my experience yesterday as well. We got ripped to shreds in pt 5. Granted it was a pug with a few folks new to the Shroud but still...

boldarblood
12-11-2008, 02:44 PM
After running this a bunch last night, it is still my opinion that the group you had either was not very good or did not work well together. Shroud was not any more difficult at all. You had a bad group like I said earlier, it happens. You deal with it and move on. You really sound like you want an easy button.

Aspenor
12-11-2008, 02:45 PM
After running this a bunch last night, it is still my opinion that the group you had either was not very good or did not work well together. Shroud was not any more difficult at all. You had a bad group like I said earlier, it happens. You deal with it and move on. You really sound like you want an easy button.

that's about par for the course concerning the OP

Beherit_Baphomar
12-11-2008, 02:50 PM
lol you always overreact. you must cause a whole lot of party whipes.

With cool whip?

Osharan_Tregarth
12-11-2008, 02:52 PM
Sorry, but I don't actually expect a group of new players to be able to complete a raid.

IT'S A RAID.

It's supposed to be harder to complete than a quest.

If the new players couldn't complete the shroud prereq quests on normal without the shroud weapons, you might have a valid compliant.


The fact that the underequipped/inexperience players weren't able to complete on their first time through doesn't faze me in the slightest.

BronwynnBane
12-11-2008, 03:02 PM
I have to say that some of what GlassCannon is saying is true. I pugged out 3 Shroud runs last night and didn't complete in any of them due to the changes. And the PuG groups were with very seasoned players. Although it didn't help that in all the runs that multiple players kept DC'ing so by the end we were 2-3 people short of a full group on all 3 runs. But I found there are no longer any safe spots in part 5 from the blades like there use to be (or if there is please tell me) and being a Wizzie they chewed through me. Also, Big A was able to hit me when he was in front of the barrier and I was around the corner by one of the pools. I would see the tip of his wing and then take damage and the blades weren't out yet.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-11-2008, 03:03 PM
Using the altar (which previously raised the dead party members) kills the dead members from part 4 all over again currently. You'll see the messages pop up that your dead party members have died... Again.

I haven't experimented yet to see if you could do it over and over and over again, but I'm sure someone will try it out at some point.

Hm....want to run a shroud tonight and die so I can try this out on you? Sounds like fun...if clicking it 10 times kills you 10 times, you'd wake up naked in part 5 when we finally started. Could be good for a laugh.

Osharan_Tregarth
12-11-2008, 03:10 PM
Hm....want to run a shroud tonight and die so I can try this out on you? Sounds like fun...if clicking it 10 times kills you 10 times, you'd wake up naked in part 5 when we finally started. Could be good for a laugh.

I'm in... You'll probably have to wait until saturday tho... I think I put 6 characters on timer yesterday.

The other ones are characters that are UNDEREQUIPPED and ILL-SUITED to running the shroud, so I BRING APPROPRIATE CHARACTERS to the raid.


Umm.. Was that too blatant?

GlassCannon
12-11-2008, 05:55 PM
I'm in... You'll probably have to wait until saturday tho... I think I put 6 characters on timer yesterday.

The other ones are characters that are UNDEREQUIPPED and ILL-SUITED to running the shroud, so I BRING APPROPRIATE CHARACTERS to the raid.


Umm.. Was that too blatant?

Actually, that's how you're supposed to run the raid: Underequipped and ill-suited.

It's supposed to equip you in the process of you grinding at it 20 times.

GlassCannon
12-11-2008, 05:55 PM
Hm....want to run a shroud tonight and die so I can try this out on you? Sounds like fun...if clicking it 10 times kills you 10 times, you'd wake up naked in part 5 when we finally started. Could be good for a laugh.

Definitely :D


Once I get this website built.

Junts
12-11-2008, 06:00 PM
I didn't notice any stealth changes, only the known which were released in the patch notes.

I have been on runs BEFORE the patch where Red moves around a lot in pt 4. One run I remember he hunted a caster with no mercy into a few different corners lol. Poor guy couldn't get away :)


there remains one perfectly reliable way to move him off the center if for some reason you think you need to, too, without fail, every time.

rarely, however, do you need to, though depending where he goes it can increase your dps in a given round as you wont need to lose 15% of the time to getting out when blades come in.

Mindspat
12-11-2008, 06:01 PM
The Shroud is no different for you all. We had 2 newbies in the PuG and they were right ****ed off.

OK, you're rant is starting to make more sense. You pug'd it and had at least 2 players who've never ran it before. Did you remind the new players that completion is a reward, not a right?

Mindspat
12-11-2008, 06:04 PM
there remains one perfectly reliable way to move him off the center if for some reason you think you need to, too, without fail, every time.

rarely, however, do you need to, though depending where he goes it can increase your dps in a given round as you wont need to lose 15% of the time to getting out when blades come in.

On the count of three: Heave! Ho! Heave! Ho!

Put your backs into it! :D

Junts
12-11-2008, 06:08 PM
On the count of three: Heave! Ho! Heave! Ho!

Put your backs into it! :D

cast sleet storm!

he will move outside the area of effect, every time, even if its just a scroll.

you need to do it once a round, though (he reappears in the middle when he comes back), and if your melees dont have freedom on, they'll hate you with a passion, but buffing fom and sleeting him out to the edges is a common tactic for non-normal shrouds, as you can stay in against him longer and fight less devils.

my bard will probably always fom the party before shrining in 3 and carry scrolls of it, though

GlassCannon
12-11-2008, 06:29 PM
OK, you're rant is starting to make more sense. You pug'd it and had at least 2 players who've never ran it before. Did you remind the new players that completion is a reward, not a right?

Even so, a solid party that can complete Hound and potentially VoD(that's really pushing it though, you kind of need Shroud weapons to complete that one too... and that's also assuming that one of our clerics was hiding his inner powergamer) should be able to handle Shroud.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee307/sarin_elf/Srslyuguys.jpg

Newbies and New Characters that don't have Greensteel coming out of every orifice should be able to complete this.

GlassCannon
12-11-2008, 06:32 PM
cast sleet storm!

he will move outside the area of effect, every time, even if its just a scroll.

you need to do it once a round, though (he reappears in the middle when he comes back), and if your melees dont have freedom on, they'll hate you with a passion, but buffing fom and sleeting him out to the edges is a common tactic for non-normal shrouds, as you can stay in against him longer and fight less devils.

my bard will probably always fom the party before shrining in 3 and carry scrolls of it, though

Forget FoM, just cast Heightened Extended Sleet Storm and Grease everywhere. Your party will love it!

Junts
12-11-2008, 06:32 PM
Even so, a solid party that can complete Hound and potentially VoD(that's really pushing it though, you kind of need Shroud weapons to complete that one too... and that's also assuming that one of our clerics was hiding his inner powergamer) should be able to handle Shroud.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee307/sarin_elf/Srslyuguys.jpg

Newbies and New Characters that don't have Greensteel coming out of every orifice should be able to complete this.

did you play this game when people took weeks to master the shroud to achieve the first completion?


DDO RAIDS ARE HARD

the level cap hasn't even gone up - the power of a non-shroud-equipped character has barely changed from the day the shroud was released

of course it's hard.

Angelus_dead
12-11-2008, 06:55 PM
did you play this game when people took weeks to master the shroud to achieve the first completion?
For your information, the first completion of The Shroud was 4 days after module 6 launched. It would've been 3 days, but some people had to work. And the first day had so much downtime, it hardly counts as really launched yet.

Junts
12-11-2008, 06:59 PM
For your information, the first completion of The Shroud was 4 days after module 6 launched. It would've been 3 days, but some people had to work. And the first day had so much downtime, it hardly counts as really launched yet.

hum, for some reason i was told it took a long ass time (i guess t he teller told me it took them a long ass time)

it too quite a while to be puggable regularly, didn't it?

GlassCannon
12-11-2008, 07:02 PM
hum, for some reason i was told it took a long ass time (i guess t he teller told me it took them a long ass time)

it too quite a while to be puggable regularly, didn't it?

On argonessen, there were PuGs for it within the second week, completing it with great resource expenditure.

Osharan_Tregarth
12-11-2008, 07:51 PM
Actually, that's how you're supposed to run the raid: Underequipped and ill-suited.

It's supposed to equip you in the process of you grinding at it 20 times.

Ummm.. No. Not really.

I can't speak for everyone else, as my gameplay habits are considered "odd" by a lot of my guild's standards...


But I have one(1) fully upgraded greensteel weapon, and it's on my ac tank. And he doesn't get used as a main tank in the shroud... People would rather have my dps ranger. Who uses plain old boring transmuting dwarven ax's on my boss fights.

I have one(1) spellpoint/cha item done, and it's on my sorc.

The other four or five characters that I run the shroud with, are equipped with other stuff. Transmuters, greater evil outsider bane, lots of cold iron arrows, etc.

All stuff that's gotten by chest pulls, not shroud crafting.

Thus my point....

People need to get the gear that's useful for the raids, not just think they can jump into the raid and succeed with their normal everyday quest running gear.

Back to my original point.. I'd expect that almost every quest in the game can be done by almost any random hodgepodge of level appropriate people, at least on normal.

I expect that raids need to have some careful, well thought out gear and characters if you are going to succeed without already having the gear you can get from that raid.

GlassCannon
12-11-2008, 07:55 PM
I expect that raids need to have some careful, well thought out gear and characters if you are going to succeed without already having the gear you can get from that raid.

Gear that requires miracle loot rolls or at least 1 year of playtime, a minimum of 20 hours/week, and an understanding of the DDO Combat system that borders on Dungeon Master... gotcha.

So Raids are not for the average gamer, and new players shouldn't even think of going near them. Gotcha.

Essentially, Raids are a Veteran or Powergamer-only thing that casual newbies should avoid like a plague. Understood, loud and clear.

When I form up a Raid and the LFM says "NO NEW PLAYERS OR CHARACTERS", I fully expect complete understanding from the entire userbase.

Nott
12-11-2008, 08:40 PM
Newbies and New Characters that don't have Greensteel coming out of every orifice should be able to complete this.I'll assume that by "newbies" you really mean people who have never been in the shroud, but are otherwise competent. Is that a fair assumption?

If so... well, news flash: they can. Not the first attempt, and probably not the 10th attempt. Bottom line though is if they can eventually get past part 1, they can all get the first tier of Greensteel. This makes it easier to get past part two (though greensteel isn't a requirement for that part). Once they get past part two, part three can be done naked. Now all of these people can earn tier two upgrades.

Are you seeing the point? I'm not sure you are since you've already ignored it. If you think people without some level of gear should be able to complete a raid (whose learning curve provides that gear), I'd be interested in knowing your reasoning (though I don't hold much expectation that you can convince anyone).

Osharan_Tregarth
12-11-2008, 10:35 PM
Gear that requires miracle loot rolls or at least 1 year of playtime, a minimum of 20 hours/week, and an understanding of the DDO Combat system that borders on Dungeon Master... gotcha.

So Raids are not for the average gamer, and new players shouldn't even think of going near them. Gotcha.

Essentially, Raids are a Veteran or Powergamer-only thing that casual newbies should avoid like a plague. Understood, loud and clear.

When I form up a Raid and the LFM says "NO NEW PLAYERS OR CHARACTERS", I fully expect complete understanding from the entire userbase.


Did you read what I posted my ranger uses? transmuting dwarven axes... Hit up the house D broker on any saturday or sunday...

Nothing in what I posted requires too much grinding... It does require some thought out purchases in advance, in order to bring the correct tools for the correct job.

Well, it's obvious to me that your point of view differs from mine, and you don't seem to be wavering at all. So there's not much point in attempting to discuss things further, since that doesn't seem to be the goal of your postings here.

Have fun with your future raiding stuff.

Junts
12-11-2008, 11:09 PM
no raid on ddo is gonna be beaten by a party of people who dont know the quest or its challenges; they a re designed for foreknowledge, planning and practice

velah: bridges go boom fall far etc
marilith: knockdown
titan: pillars, gun, etc, we know how this went
reaver: fly, levers, puzzle, on the time limit
shroud: difficulty and items needed f or harryfights
hound: dog charm mechanic, spawn p ointsfor flayers etc
vod: aggro control, how mobs spawn etc

raids are supposed to require a lot of practice, its their design

dragonofsteel2
12-11-2008, 11:31 PM
First - Fabrication. I used to see Misses due to Displacement. DBF ignores Displace. I have an active Combat Log below my Focus Orb 20 lines in length. I speedread. You probably never checked the log, just thought that since you were getting hit so often you might not be gaining from Displacement. I admit, those fireballs do get right through and tricked me for a while, but I guarantee that before this update Displacement did work.

Second - His attack range was silly as I last recalled, twice his height in range, but hitting someone on the back wall from the other side of the area with melee attacks? Probably lag, but maybe a bugged hitbox too.

Third - The blades used to just slowly move around and gave you a chance to dodge them, now they move around like a Hasted Monk 16. Yes, I was said Monk and they did indeed move around much like I did - fast as hell.

Also, Hard? Maybe for a time Hard is the new Normal. I recall a few other quests wherein the difficulty was reversed for a while due to minor tweaks...

Additionally, the Fog tricks should not be made mandatory, but they do indeed help.

LMAO checked his trueseeing like 2 or 3 month out had Barb with no ac go in with displacement never once did get that message turn off all other logs to see just him hits and misses against me none of my attacks agianst him, open it up look through whole log not one displacement in it. This was not one time thing did couple times to make sure did not make a mistake. Although if had concealment up he will miss because that Trueseeing does not stop concealment. Second part you right its the lag the blades and mobs been hitting from across the room lots, also makes blades seem faster this more performance issue.


Second tired seeing oh its because got the uber weapons its so easy, nah p its practice and skill we had to get them weapons through beating the raid repeatedly. If talking about the mobs coming at you right away it the way suppose to be come on you die with him giving a speech about his guys kicking your butt. (This was kind widespread exploit that Trubine did nothing about.) Think suppose to get time to run over and get rdy for the fight?? Must the other issue people complaining about seem to be lag issues, would like to see these address soon.



Gear that requires miracle loot rolls or at least 1 year of playtime, a minimum of 20 hours/week, and an understanding of the DDO Combat system that borders on Dungeon Master... gotcha.

So Raids are not for the average gamer, and new players shouldn't even think of going near them. Gotcha.

Essentially, Raids are a Veteran or Powergamer-only thing that casual newbies should avoid like a plague. Understood, loud and clear.

When I form up a Raid and the LFM says "NO NEW PLAYERS OR CHARACTERS", I fully expect complete understanding from the entire userbase.

Understanding the combat system is the point accomplishing goals, the 20hours week not a need. If you good player 5-10hours a week is plenty to get gear. Yes it will take you longer then others that play more, but will get it sooner or later. Yes these means newbies and casual players can get involve in raids if they enjoy them. Though running to the boards about raid that is not super hard in my opinion just sounds like whining. Though maybe had bad day and some lag and other factors cause a lose. Now if Tribune really did make this raid that much harder sure I will see it next couple try have out there, first one did was with twink out guy so he not much tell tell sign.

QuantumFX
12-12-2008, 12:28 AM
Glasscannon,

It doesn't require any arcane or high level weaponry to effectively deliver a beatdown to Harry.

Last I checked:

You can bypass Harry's DR with a ML:2 weapon if it's a +1 Silver <insert favorite melee weapon> of Pure Good.

Transmutating weapons are ML: 4 and often available in the House D weapon brokers. Do you know what the difference is between a +1 Transmutating Kopesh and a Supreme Tyrant Kopesh of Mineral when attacking Harry? +4 more to hit, +6 more pre crit damage and 2d6+1d4 post crit damage.

Any paladin capable of casting level 4 spells can create a +5 Holy Burst weapon capable of delivering all red numbers to Harry. Weapons created by the Holy Sword spell can keep up with Green Steel weapons.

Any ranger with tier 2 House D favor can stock up on ammo to bypass the material portion of his DR. (Silver) Then the ranger only needs to come up with a ML:2 pure good or ML:4 holy bow. Also, a ML:6 longbow is more than capable of keeping up with a Supreme Commander Greensteel longbow. It's called the Silver Longbow and could have been found by any archer while levelling up. In fact if the ranger has sufficent STR it can keep up with Supreme Tyrant bows.

CSFurious
12-12-2008, 05:46 AM
so the first time someone goes into a quest, they are supposed to succeed?

once again, get a clue

i pull weapons almost every day in an hour or two of playtime that will hurt Harry

you should spend more time teaching these newbs how to play instead of spouting nonsense on the forums


Gear that requires miracle loot rolls or at least 1 year of playtime, a minimum of 20 hours/week, and an understanding of the DDO Combat system that borders on Dungeon Master... gotcha.

So Raids are not for the average gamer, and new players shouldn't even think of going near them. Gotcha.

Essentially, Raids are a Veteran or Powergamer-only thing that casual newbies should avoid like a plague. Understood, loud and clear.

When I form up a Raid and the LFM says "NO NEW PLAYERS OR CHARACTERS", I fully expect complete understanding from the entire userbase.

Desteria
12-12-2008, 05:50 AM
are you joking? until a month ago we all fought the 4 lieutenants right away anyway, other than that change, the quest is no harder

i just completed a run on hard where the main dps toon in the group (a well-made wf barb) went ld in part 1, never returned, and the wizard (we had 2 casters) with fogs/debuffs went ld after part 4 and did not return

we still completed the run in about 75-80 minutes and zero major potions used (2 clerics)

they did not make this raid harder; they just stopped our one silly twink tactic that made it easier for the last month or so (run to the corner), so you have to kite them again

big

deal

whiners

People dont just start fighting them right away ....... buff as you fight RARW...

Dirac
12-12-2008, 08:12 AM
I've now run this twice, and did not notice any changes other than those widely known

1. immediate aggro in part 5 regardless.
2. death in part 4 means you can't shrine (or get chests) before part 5

Riggs
12-27-2008, 07:59 PM
As CSFurious said - weaksauce group.

Lag causes things to speed up and take extra damage when it all catches up. Lag can kill groups if the cleric suddenly cant heal for 10-20 seconds say. A weak group can be wiped by a bad spike, one cleric gets blasted, the the other one is stuck trying to catch up and maybe gets hit by blades and a fireball, and then not enough people have ways to res the cleric, and harry starts eating up everyone else. But thats pretty rare outside of weak pugs full of people that are completely unprepared for the raid.

And if your not willing to prepare - dont raid.

Spend any amount of time in the house D vendor and anyone with 5-10k plat can pick up either a transmuter or pure good silver or holy silver weapon within a couple days easy. Any ranged person can get any kind of holy/pure good bow and silver arrows for dirt cheap also as said above. 5k plat is about ONE(1) quest at high level - 3-4 chests, end reward, sell it all, boom 5k plat. Buy a weapon? boom under 1 hour your Shroud ready.

If people cannot fight because of multiple death penalties - then the clerics are not raid ready clerics. Maximize and/or quiken are really handy in raids. If they dont have it....they should question why they want to raid if they cannot keep up with healing. Yeah evasion tanks are a big bonus, but not required.

If a group cannot damage the pit fiend enough to keep ahead of any low level regeneration he might have, then thats some real weaksauce damage.

Any players that are not willing to take a level 16 guy and spend a few plat on a weapon that can do damage shouldnt be raiding period. Info on how to get past the DR has been on the forums since each raid comes out. Anyone not willing to spend 10 minutes reading up on a raid that takes hours and hours to flag for, run the first time and fail, and keep running doesnt deserve to be in the raid.

The raid is not EASY, but it shouldnt also be that hard if the players took a little time to get ready for it. Sounds like none of the players in this group did anything to get ready for, spend any cash on, or read up on the raid and assumed that a unprepared, ill equipt, badly informed (ie displacement) group could complete a challenging raid for high level characters.

And any raid that could be completed by the characters above wouldnt be a raid worth doing for anyone who does actually have gear, prepare for quests, and ...be able to do damage and heal in a fight.

Riggs
12-27-2008, 08:11 PM
I've now run this twice, and did not notice any changes other than those widely known

1. immediate aggro in part 5 regardless.
2. death in part 4 means you can't shrine (or get chests) before part 5

You can shrine and get chests, its just they apepar in the middle when you hit the altar for a short window, like 5-10 seconds, and if they dont get a res and take it right away they get ressed with everyone else in part 5, and have no mana and have to run back if you complete to get the part 4 chests.

Riggs
12-27-2008, 08:22 PM
Actually, that's how you're supposed to run the raid: Underequipped and ill-suited.

It's supposed to equip you in the process of you grinding at it 20 times.

Actually thats how you run it....the first time, when its new, and no one knows anything about it yet.

8 months on, with reams on info out there, transmuting and silver weapons all over now really at the vendor or cheap on the auction house....there is no excuse to have not ONE weapon that can bypass the pit fiend dr. If someone cant find a +1 pure good silver weapon at the very least, or a +3 transmuter off ANYTHING, (who cares if its your favored weapon, grab a longsword, pick, staff even and go) shouldnt be playing a melee.

Mineral 2 is nice, but not even all that uber for the pit fiend, since the acid damage wont get through, so all you will be doing is a +5 weapon with holy or pure good burst damage. Which is nice....but its only a few points more than a plain +3 holy silver whatever anwyay. Even without silver or transmuting, a +5 holy or some kind of holy burst greataxe or greatsword will still do decent damage, just with the -20 dr.

And if 5-10 points of damage makes that much difference that it cant damage the pitfiend without a mineral 2 weapon - again the 'tank' is really weaksauce.

Aranticus
12-27-2008, 09:15 PM
Riggs necroed!

this thread gave me a laugh. people whine that dodgy, cheesey tactics are fixed. more whining about uber gear needed (thou not the fact that it is a uber raid higher level than our current cap) :D

GlassCannon
12-28-2008, 03:51 AM
Come on guys, put the Clerics away.

The point of this is that the raid is not designed for the newer crowd of people in Stormreach. For example, if Mortal Voyage ever made it in, it would be their last adventure. It's ridiculously unbalanced for new characters and especially new players.

'nuff said, stop necroing.

Addendum: Assume the Auction House is deleted, the Mail System does not work, and your guildmates are all offline for eternity.

Pyromaniac
12-28-2008, 06:42 AM
'nuff said, stop necroing.

Addendum: Assume the Auction House is deleted, the Mail System does not work, and your guildmates are all offline for eternity.

I just had to add to the thead again :)

I'd agree if I have to try to solo the shroud it would be hard. Otherwise, its not that bad.