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Borror0
12-07-2008, 03:58 PM
December. That time of the year where teachers give exams, teamworks and other time consuming evaluations one after the other until you brain explodes. Then, they add a couple more just to be sure. It is one of those time of the year where you forget the definition of the word sleep and the expression spare time is a vague memory.

To not loose my sanity those crazy periods, usually I used to read the forums and play DDO. Just a little to change my mind. After studying for too long, the brain can't simply keep up. However, this year I won't play DDO. I still read the forums obviously, but I won't use the game to change my mind.

No, it's not because I have ground end game content until I got sick of it, although there is a little of that, but because the game has lost what made it so fun to me. Quite honestly, it's a bunch of little details but they add up together and just make the game quite boring to play. They do a lot of difference to me.

Shortly put, if every end game quest would be as fun as Gwylan's Stand, I would play more.

Gwylan's Stand, if it wasn't obvious enough like this, is my favorite quest. I don't think there is a single of my character, except maybe my very first character, that doesn't have the red "Your experience is capped due to extreme repetition" or whatever the formulation is in-game. I just love that quest that much.

To be honest, most of it doesn't have to do with how the quest is designed.

While Gwylan's Stand is a fun quest, it is extremely simple. Nothing fancy or complicated about it. Turbine has even came up with better ideas and quests that, in theory should be more fun than Gwylan's Stand. More creative. Some with humor, etc. However, one has yet to beat it. The quest design isn't really what makes it fun. It's fun because it's a cool quest at level 7. What is amazing isn't the quest itself, but rather the level 7 area that is fun.

There are a few contributing factors to that:

Mobs without bazillions of HP
Lack of BAB issues
Haste
More Balanced
Grinding
Random loot
Minotaurs rock
Geography of the quest
Less blanket immunities

Mobs' Hit Points:
This is what makes end game the most boring of all the factors I have listed above and what makes the Gwylan's Stand the most awesome quest in DDO to my eyes. At low levels, kobolds are killed in less time than it takes to say dizafrabado. At end game, it takes ages to kill monsters. Portal or any end game mob, no difference to me. Both are boring.

Using Vorpal or some stat-damage weapon makes it a little shorter, but it also makes end game reach a superior level of boringness. I don't have any problem with either of those to be effective. Stat-damage can be a decent way to kill for Dex-based characters I have no problem with that or Crippling Strike rogues. As Vorpal, well they can be used on orange names and I have no problem with that. Or on a few rare creatures in one quest. But not on everything.

It's just way too boring. More HP doesn't make it more fun, it makes it loooooonnnngeeeerrrrr to kill.

Monsters in Gwylan's Stand seem to have a good amount of HP for the quantity of DPS we have at that level. I do realize you cranked the HP up, but I am not enjoying it. A lot of us are not enjoying it. Lower it. Please. Pretty please with a cherry on top. Nerf caster damage if you have to, as right now this is killing the game for a lot of your playerbase. Casters will be thankful for as long as they can nuke trash mobs again.

We loved to DPS stuff back in Module 4. It hasn't changed.

Lack of Base Attack Bonus issues:
As I have explained in a previous thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=164794), if you don't address the extremely slower fifth animation issue there will be serious issues. But, it already affects my enjoyment of the game right now. What I love so much about DDO is that it's not like other MMOs. I don't feel like watching my character play for me, I feel I control it. DDO is fast pasted, not fast clicking.

The fifth animation give me the impression to watch DDO in slow motion which is not something I enjoy. If you wonder, I am an huge Sonic the Hedgehog fan.

Anwyway, this brings us to the following point.

Haste:
Melee crack, for a reason. Going faster is just fun. By level 7, most bards and sorcerers got Haste, which makes level 7 even more fun.

More balanced:
At lower levels, S&B is king because AC is king. TWF is way behind because of how slowly it swings. On top of it, mobs' AC is too high for PA to be worth using, and that obviously penalizes TWF further more. At level 7, things start coming together pretty good. Before Module 5.0, casters were way behind at that level but now it's fixed. I'd even say they are a little too strong if twinked perfectly, but that is so rare so who cares?

While it's not perfectly balance, the point is, whatever your character is spec'd for, you can have fun. You want to DPS that toon? Go for it. THF, TWF or nuking... have fun. AC toon? It matters! No, you don't have to grind a ****load of gear to avoid getting hit. Sure, good gear helps but you'll probably be fine no matter what. Chaosgarde is level 9. So is Chattering Ring. Heighten Awareness is far away. The mobs are not balanced for Alchemical rituals or monk splash AC. Actually, mobs' to-hit hasn't hit the roof yet. Nor is their AC, or their HP.

Monsters aren't build against certain style(s) of builds, and that is fun.

Grinding:
I heard it's written on the box that DDO is not build around grinding. I can't know, I don't own the box version. If that is so, it's not true anymore. If I look at the content at launch, it seems to be true. Even in Module 1, there seemed to be little grinding. Velah was grinding, but the benefit was so small that it didn't made a huge difference, with the exception of the Sword of Shadows. Now? Even killing a mob feels like grinding!!

Sure, you had to grind for better gear before but it is nowhere near as insane as it is today.

How many points of AC behind is someone who refuses to grind? Take a guess... Any clue? 10!!! Ten whole points of damage. Over half of what matter on a d20! Three from Chattering Ring. Three from Heighten Awareness IV, four if he doesn't own a good Parrying weapon. Plus, without a Green Steel item it's a serious hit in DPS. Two points for not performing the Alchemical Shield/Armor rituals. Two points for not having Dragontouched amor, or four points for not owning Icy Raiments. I skipped Chaosgarde as that one is easier to get and Fearsome as that only works on trash mbos plus, it's much rarer.

So, it can get bigger than 10!

Even if you aren't spec'd for AC, the grind is a *****. Dragonscale armor. Dragontouched armor. Raid loot.

Someone said that somewhere on these forums and it just stuck in my head as pure truth. "Grind is unavoidable in MMOs. Thing is, Turbine doesn't vary. It's always the same kind of grind. Heck, they don't even try to hide it. It's blatantly obvious and they don't seem to care about it." I never looked at it from that angle before then, I just complained about how the amount of grind but that is very. Also very surprising. With a developer team as creative as the one we got, they are being really unoriginal about the kind of grind we are stuck with.

Anyway, if there is anything I'd like the developer team to know is that I am not against new grinds. They are necessary for the well-being of the game. A necessary evil. If playing more isn't rewarded, there woudl be simply no replayability to the game.

Finish the quests.
Get to cap.
Done.

Not even a cool finish to a storyline! DDO would be a lousy game.

However, I DON'T want them to confuse new grinds for more grind. Each module, make the previous grind easier to add easy to get item to replace the grind. Don't make of grind must-do's either. Make that item that give a +4 bonus to [whatever] but put a really easy to get that give +2 or +3 to that [whatever]. Don't let the gap become too big. It makes the game less friendly to new players and more casual gamers. And, it makes the game frustrating to almost everyone.

We don't want that.

Random loot:
I miss random loot. Green Steel weapons killed it. Bring it back. Nerf Green Steel. Revamp the system. And yes, I did say nerf Green Steel.

It's not really related to Gwylan's Stand, but it's something that makes the end game less pleasant for me. Felt like it belong here. Anyway, I am sure I'm not the only one who misses it.

Minotaurs:
I know it may sound odd, but I love minotaurs.

You can actually laugh of me on that one, but minotaurs are exploiting the biggest strength of DDO. DDO is about active combat. Most of us agree that it's what makes DDO as awesome as it is. That DDO has the best combat system around. Well, never in DDO does it feel truer to me than when I am fighting a minotaur. That's 'cause of their bull rush attack. You got to shield block of jump over them when they do. Otherwise, you're on the floor like an idiot. They are small enough for you to jump over them too.

I wish there were more mobs like that these.

Geography of the quest:
This is the only direct quest design comment I will speak about, but it's an important to my eyes.

I love outside quests. Don't get me wrong, dungeon crawling can be fun. But not all the time. A bit of diversity cannot hurt. Don't mention to me wilderness adventure areas where you have to kill X mobs to get XP, grab this and that explorer or get lucky to encounter a named. I hate those. It's pointless running around to my eyes. I even hate these, period. I dislike having to run through these to get to a quest. With moderation, it could be nice... maybe. But since Module 4.0, you got to go through one to get to any end game six man quest. It annoys me profoundly.

I miss the quests where all you had to do is talk to one guy to get in. I know some will disagree with me, but that is why a mix of the two would be cool.

Outside quests totally feel totally different than inside quests. Who doesn't love Stormcleave, Redwillow or Gwylan's?

Less blanket immunities:
I know I will have a lot of bards on my side for that one: let us use our spells or nerf them! Otherwise, it's boring.

To be fair...
To be fair, I love Module 4.X. Actually, the real question is "Who didn't?" :P

There were a lot of creative quests. There was rewards for running them, unlike the Vale of Twilight quests. Mobs didn't have crazy HP. It was really pleasant content to run. You were looking forward to get level 11ish just to run them, at least I was. You don't see that about the Vale. Most people I know stay in Gianthold for two reasons. One the XP is better. Ironic, is it? Secondly, it's more fun. I rarely hear about a Module 6 quest being someone's favorite. I hear a lot about of Module 4.0 quests, some VoNs part or even the whole. Even deserts quest and a lot of lower levels quests.

But rarely Vale quests.

Module 4.0 was a good step toward the right direction fro DDO. It wasn't perfect, that's why I prefer Gwylan's Stand to them, but Gianthold is part of my favorite DDO content. If monsters' to-hit was not so high. If there was a bit less grind. If casters weren't nuking everything in sight. It would be near perfect.

Instead, Turbine has repeated their old mistakes. They should have learnt from Module 4.0 that we didn't enjoy to-hit that high. They left it that high. They should have learnt that we didn't like to grind so much for our AC, they made it worse with Green Steel. They made everything worse with Green Steel. They should have learnt that balancing the monsters instead of the players creates more trouble, not less.

Don't get me wrong, Turbine has improved on many facets of the game. But these errors still remain. I hope they have learnt from Module 9, as I really miss the DDO I used to love so much. That's why I hope I'm not the only one thinking this way...

Anyway, I'm done my ranting for now. This has gotten way too long and I have still studies and homework to get done. Sorry about the horribly long thread.

Borror0

Docta_PoPo
12-07-2008, 04:27 PM
wow read all of it, i understand where you are coming from. But on the other hand how well equipped your character was could be based totally on luck instead of amount of time played. I know the more you played the better % of getting what you wanted. But green steel gives us something to shoot for and a relative timeline until which we could accomplish a uber weapon.

As far as grinding for ac is concerned, i totally agree with the amount of work it takes to get that extra 10 or so ac. thats a big chunk and it takes a lot of work and is a good payout for the time invested in obtaining that ac.

So in endgame people cant blow through everything unless they spend alot of time equipping their characters. Which is the way i feel it should be.

Borror0
12-07-2008, 04:32 PM
wow read all of it
Congratz! That post had gotten extremely long.

But green steel gives us something to shoot for and a relative timeline until which we could accomplish a uber weapon.
I don't my how hard it is to get one. I mind how powerful it is in comparison to the second best thing after it.

As far as grinding for ac is concerned, i totally agree with the amount of work it takes to get that extra 10 or so ac. thats a big chunk and it takes a lot of work and is a good payout for the time invested in obtaining that ac.
It totally prevents those who don't play insanely a lot to play AC spec'd characters. You are fine with that?

So in endgame people cant blow through everything unless they spend alot of time equipping their characters.
Let me disagree. I think you should blow through it easily no matter how well geared you are.

Gear should be a small push.

gelgoog
12-07-2008, 04:37 PM
I also think the minotaur is the best enemy in ddo for your same reasons as well as how cool they look and sound.

I overall agree with your post.
Well said borrow, well said.

Mockduck
12-07-2008, 04:47 PM
I like plenty of quests above Gwylan's Stand, but I agree that it's one of the best quests in the game. My personal favorite as well. There's just a nice, balanced feel to it and the look of it is great.

Mhykke
12-07-2008, 04:48 PM
Tomb of the blighted and tomb of the tormented are both better than gwylan's.... ;):p:D

Docta_PoPo
12-07-2008, 04:51 PM
I don't my how hard it is to get one. I mind how powerful it is in comparison to the second best thing after it.


Well random loot for dps i have to admit is pretty much dead. Green steel is by far the best named beaters.



It totally prevents those who don't play insanely a lot to play AC spec'd characters. You are fine with that?

Ac spec'd characters are hard to build right to get a good dps and ac. So yes i think if you are going to be playing an ac spec'd character then a good amount of time and knowledge to the game. And its fairly easy to equip a character with a high enough ac to be able to be relatively untouchable on a normal adventure. Which is a casual difficulty for a casual player.



Let me disagree. I think you should blow through it easily no matter how well geared you are.

Gear should be a small push.

Well this is just our styles of play i think hardcore power gamers should be far infront of casual gamers. Simply how we expect games to function.

Borror0
12-07-2008, 04:58 PM
And its fairly easy to equip a character with a high enough ac to be able to be relatively untouchable on a normal adventure. Which is a casual difficulty for a casual player.
That's simply untrue. It is NOT easy to be untouchable on Normal.

i think hardcore power gamers should be far infront of casual gamers.
From an hardcore gamer to another, it can't happen in an healthy game.

Casual gamers pay a lot of the bills. If they can't play the content, they'll get frustrated and leave. It's important for the game to be welcoming to both playstyles.

Junts
12-07-2008, 05:00 PM
I also read all of this. I agree in some respects, I also disagree in some others, so let me state a few.

Hi, my name is Mike and Mod6 is my favorite module. The quests are all beautiful and creative and challenging in their own ways, they can all be handled at level (or below; I did a 5man, 12-15 coal chamber run with my upcoming warchanter the other day and it was just great; most fun I have ever had in coal chamber). The monsters are challenging in a wide variety of ways (from orthons cleaves and ac to the knockdowns that annoy my cleric to the dispelling shamen that annoy my paladin, eladrin, gnolls, the beautiful monster variety of rainbow in the dark, et cetera). The quests are not slam whack kill it all fests (excepting possibly ritual, the most conventional of all 5 quests). Devils requires careful movement and activation of mobs, coal chamber is meant to be zerged, rainbow is unique and incredibly fun now (and just visually beautiful, the little red eyes of bearded devils in the dark looks amazing), and sleeping dust is this mod's gift to the caster. Cleric nuking works great, caster nuking works a bit less well, but well-specced wizards and sorcs are still extremely effective.

the capstone raid is one of the only quests that is still honestly fun and engaging for an hour even after you've run it 50 times. it also provides something for everyone and a pair of capstone fights that are very challenging and encourage strategy and ingenuity (good use of debuffs, concealment spells, etc).

a wide variety of weapons work well; con damage, effect (banishing/vorpal), dps works fine in these quests on normal or even hard if you are very well equipped. the real shame of mod6 is that it has so few quests; i would kill for some optional, level 15 types the way that gianthold has outside its flagging quests. those would really make this mod as well played as gianthold, as its those side-quests that make people live there so long. people stay in gianthold not because mod6 quests are unpopular - they are easy to get a group for any time - but because mod5 quests are, and people spend the time they might be intended to be doing mod2, 3 and 5 content in mod4 before moving on. my characters do not run any mod4 content besides the stormreaver and (if i havent done it yet, gianthold tor) once they reach level 13. the purpose of gianthold is 8-13, because mods 2, 3 and 5 fail so collossally as places to level (who runs queen or titan pre-reqs at level? even less than the people leveling in orchard quests, thats who).

-----

mod6 rant aside now, i agree the game is overly unforgiving to people who cannot equip well. i disagree with some of your positions on balance; honestly, borr, while you are source of wonderful ideas, it becomes increasingly clear to me from reading your posts that you have not run mod8 content much, nor stuck with mod7 content, and that, as you state, you are reading forums more than you are playing.

I will tell you this, right up; the people on the forum are the only ones not running mod8 content. they are the only ones not happy with it (i have some guildies working on armor on 7 different toons right now). it is at times excessively grindy, but it is way more forgiving to casual players than the shroud, because roughly 15-25% of them are getting something that is far, far better than their other armor options almost immediately. if you are not a hardcore character planning twinker like me, there are -multiple- good options on dragontouched armor, vastly increasing the amount of useful permutations. i was the one who had to get +6 to str on his armor, and who has to get the chattering ring bonus, et cetera.

a majority of players have the luxury of saying 'str or con or cha work on my armor, and heighten awareness, earthgrab, chattering, or airguard would all be great on tier 3 ..', and keeping whichever they get and like.

your paladin and s/b rants also perturb me, because its clear you are simply not playing the same game i am. I play a s/b, ac-based paladin. without the chattering ac, he can self-buff to 66 and raid-buffs to 72/73. his dps is not outrageous, but it is clearly effective, and i have heightened 4 on my khopesh (ie no blast). while there are times i wish i had twf as an option - and it would be a lovely option - my build is as effective in doing what it does as many of the monk-halfling-ranger mixes with which I group, and i frankly tank far better than a vast majority of them. my intimidate is in the low 50s and will be in the high 50s as soon as the shroud reopens, or in the mid-50s with me picking up imp-crit piercing. zeal and divine might really made my dps - their net increase is something to the tune of 20-25% of my old dps - and zeal/fighter haste boost make me spit out vorpals or banishes or con damage very, very quickly as well. haste 25 + hasteboost 15 + zeal 10 is a 50% attack speed bonus, enough that without imp crit piercing, i have run through the vale to a quest, gathered 30+ shavarath mobs, turned around, drank a haste pot and activated my hasteboost, and banished every one of them in the next 20 seconds. i appreciate that this is probably not quite as fast as some rangers etc could do it (especially without ic pierce!), but it is more than enough to be very effective at what I'm doing, and that is enough.

you're so excessively negative about things that were clearly problems 6, 9, 11 months ago, and are no longer really so. s/b builds are a little behind some other builds, but there are still significant advantages to them. i love all the ideas posted by you and other equally alarmist folks, because with them (passive deflection chances, passive dr, shield bashing hooks when my shield bash just incidently does 20+ damage), on top of everything else I have, would make my character into a template for a flavor of the month.

i appreciate that some changes and such have hurt your characters, or other characters (intimidate, for example), but I really think its time for you to just break down and actually experience the endgame content for a while, instead of subsisting in this alarmist world that is the forum posting; there are certainly negative and badly-chosen aspects to things, but the negativity here is almost comic, and I think it affects your viewpoint too much.

you'd think the freaking endgame was gone without the shroud, despite the fact that one of the mod7 raids is still not regularly pugged without wasting resources, that the slow-as-mollasses reacting forum community hasn't come to appreciate the amazing potential of dragontouched armor, or that so many people are honestly aggreived that they can no longer pike for 15 minutes for free tome-dropping chests in the stormreaver, a quest that is still embarassingly easy, but at least requires people to sort of watch the screen.

the groupthink here is embarrassing. it was stated, so everyone concurs its true; dt armor sucks, rainbow in the dark isn't a fast or fun lootrun anymore, the shroud is the only thing that matters, and if it doesnt have evasion it doesn't exist!

Frodo_Lives
12-07-2008, 05:12 PM
Well said and /signed

I have started to lose interest in playing characters once they hit level 12 or 13 due to the simple fact that I hate the grind of the Shroud and am not a big raiding fan.

Some of the best and most balanced quests are mid level, but the higher level you go the more it becomes about equipment. If you have it you can do well, if you don't you won't. Granted it is not as simplistic as all that, but it holds much more truth than it should.

Shroud items are way to powerful, they are a gaint step above virtually anything else that you can get in the game (other than a very few rare and sought after items). Turbine has pretty much let us know that you have to craft or you will be left behind the power curve.

I've never been one to try to keep up with the Joneses, but when second best is a joke compared to what is avaiable if you have the time and desire to grind then I lose all interest in playing a character up to cap.

I know of a couple of people who have cancelled their accounts directly because of the grind = power philosophy that Turbine has adopted.

maddmatt70
12-07-2008, 05:13 PM
I agree with your comment about random loot being totally weak. My hopes though are not that green steels will be nerfed, but rather random loot will be greatly improved when the cap goes up to 20. I think two things happened when the cap got raised to 16 one is the advent of greensteals (in other words raid loot was significantly improved), and two there was 0 improvement in random loot. There was no new prefixes or suffixes of note when the cap went up and even basic improvements which you would expect would be in with a cap raise such as superior potency 7 and greater potency 8 were not.

Concerning your comments which touch upon balancing and juggling different modes of combat and spellcasting, I think that is a difficult job for the devs. It is difficult to totally overhaul spellcasting as spellcasting in ddo is even more overpowered then in pnp in a sense. One goal of the devs is obviously to keep melee competitive with spellcasting perhaps even more competitive with spellcasting then it is in 3.5. The end result of these two goals and realities has been extremely odd mobs. The mobs are allmost cartoonish, odd red names, etc. What is the way to remedy this is? I have not read a suggestion in these forums yet that has come of with a very good remedy for this, but I overall respect the devs' ability at creating a good game and have faith.

Thrudh
12-07-2008, 05:21 PM
Blanket immunites (especially on "trash" mobs) suck

HPs are too high... lower them.... then more monsters, or less shrines... maybe even nerf caster power... something so everyone can kill via DPS (including casters) without casters killing EVERYTHING...

(Lots of doors, unforunately, are needed to keep casters from gathering up all the mobs and firewalling them...)

New random effects are needed for end-game loot... We need to be excited when looking in chests again... That's a huge part of any MMO, and it's gone at end-game right now...

AC needs to be looked at.... A couple of things... you HAVE to nerf the monk AC splash... Monks should only get that when centered....

Ranger/monks can have high DPS (via normal weapons) or high AC (using kamas)... They should NOT be getting both....

Add more Dodge items into the game... make sure they don't stack, but give multiple ways for people to get a +3 dodge bonus, +2 dodge bonus, +4 dodge bonus... Make them rare items that fall in quests that aren't normally run...

Make some really cool shields...

Balance it
THF --> most DPS, less AC
S&B --> most AC, least DPS
TWF --> medium DPS, medium AC --> best with "effect" weapons

Other than that, I think everything in this game is still fine... I don't think AC grinding is that bad really.... The monk splash is what is really wrong with AC.

Dragontouched armor is not that hard to get. AC rituals don't require a lot of grinding (well, the shield one kind of does). I agree with need more Dodge items


Don't make of grind must-do's either. Make that item that give a +4 bonus to [whatever] but put a really easy to get that give +2 or +3 to that [whatever].

Agree with that 100%

Game really isn't broken yet... But yeah Turbine, make me excited to open a chest again... WoP or a +2 tome are the only things that get me excited anymore. Add new effects to the end-game loot tables!

SableShadow
12-07-2008, 05:45 PM
Well said!

Although, I can't agree entirely about Vale quests being hated, as I like Coal a good deal....but then I liked The Pit, so.... :)

Crucible is my fave quest of all time, though. Very good points about Mod 4.

Junts
12-07-2008, 05:46 PM
i still think everyone loves mod4 because its too easy :P

Borror0
12-07-2008, 05:48 PM
I agree with your comment about random loot being total weak. My hopes though are not that green steels will be nerfed, but rather random loot will be greatly improved when the cap goes up to 20.
I think that both will have to be done. Nerf Green Steel a little to make it much easier for random loot to keep up.

The upgrade we have gotten from the Shroud was simply too much for level 20. I don't even want to think about how they can or will make something better. The thought scares me.

Mhykke
12-07-2008, 05:49 PM
Turbine's in a tough spot in regards to greensteel.

I mean, if they nerf greensteel weapons (or items), I can't imagine how furious I'd be. Spending all that time to acquire that stuff, only to get it nerfed. And what would make me confident that the next thing I'd grind for wouldn't get nerfed as well? I don't know, I could see myself as being less interested in playing if this was introduced.

I agree w/ matt, that the better situation would be to change/raise the loot tables on random loot.

SableShadow
12-07-2008, 05:53 PM
Let me disagree. I think you should blow through it easily no matter how well geared you are.

Gear should be a small push.
Well this is just our styles of play i think hardcore power gamers should be far infront of casual gamers. Simply how we expect games to function.

Biggest problem in DDO game balance is how things stack; power gamers are going to crush quests regardless of gear...that's why we're power games. :)

If the difference between average gear and uber gear (for a given level range) is huge, though, that's going to generate a problem for devs trying to balance quests. They end up having to bore power games to death or nuking casuals.

Neither are good options.

BlackSteel
12-07-2008, 05:54 PM
very nice post borror

oddly enough, monastery and kobold are very high on my favorite quests list, if not the top two. I find that both of them can be deadly, yet easy to manage if you know what u're doing. And none of the mobs suffer from crazy high hp-itis.

Stealer of Souls would be another great quest if the hp on the trash mobs wasnt over the top. I find it very similar to the Tor, yet the Tor giants seemed to be at that break point, where either stat damage or dps was viable, if you were a heavy hitting character. Souls mobs are just too much tho :(

as to the attack animation, noone forces you to complete your chain. move if its that irritating; unless i'm feeling lazy i try to keep side stepping. In fact it makes combat more active ^^

Samadhi
12-07-2008, 05:55 PM
i still think everyone loves mod4 because its too easy :P

I agree with you, that is exactly why most people like it. (That, and of course, the fact that there were PILES of quests instead of just five).

From a balance perspective, I think they have did an excellent job with most of the new quests. An elite group can take most of them on elite without too much problem. A less well equipped group can take them on normal without too much problem. This makes sense to me, and if this is what they were going for, than kudos to them.

The real problem is just the number of them.

To the original points, there are too many for me to address them all, but I do want to address one.

Redwillow, for a long time, was my favorite quest also. Why? Because it was an outdoor quest. Might sound cheesy, but I enjoyed exploring it in a way dungeon crawling to fight undead will NEVER appeal to me. While like the OP I dislike encounter areas, Mt Reysalon is also a very cool outdoor area, as was Ritual Sacrifice before the buggy scorpions got so annoying I stopped playing it.

Lymnus
12-07-2008, 05:59 PM
Sounds like me. My favourite quest is Xorian Cipher. Still worth running at higher levels. Everyone can play a roll, even if you're some odd 20 point in charisma/wisdom/int toon. But, it's just fun for me.

Oh. And I love purple balls.

Borror0
12-07-2008, 05:59 PM
it becomes increasingly clear to me from reading your posts that you have not run mod8 content much, nor stuck with mod7 content, and that, as you state, you are reading forums more than you are posting.
I haven't played Module 8 content a lot. The mob designed ****ed me off and I didn't return.

However, I played Module 7 more than I played during any Module. I had a lot of spare time this summer. So I played DDO, a lot. I was in the first group to complete Xy'zzy on Normal and Hard. I also killed Suulomades the same day. I then got back on timer for Hound the moment I could. As for Vision, it have less completions but still a lot.

So, explain me, what about Module 7 have I missed?

s/b builds are a little behind some other builds, but there are still significant advantages to them.
...like? Lesser Armor Class? Lowest DPS? Ability to shield block?

Sorry. I don't see it.

Lorichie
12-07-2008, 06:00 PM
Turbine's in a tough spot in regards to greensteel.

I mean, if they nerf greensteel weapons (or items), I can't imagine how furious I'd be. Spending all that time to acquire that stuff, only to get it nerfed. And what would make me confident that the next thing I'd grind for wouldn't get nerfed as well? I don't know, I could see myself as being less interested in playing if this was introduced.

I agree w/ matt, that the better situation would be to change/raise the loot tables on random loot.



Serious question. Everyone is saying, "Dont nerf greensteel." I understand why.
Everyone is saying, "but raise loot tables to come close so all players are at somewhat even playing field, or closer at the very least." I understand that as well.

Question part of the question: Exactly what would you hope to find, at levels 17-20, that would be closer to equal than the shroud greensteel, since arguably its where the best loot in the game thus far is? Without it being better, or so close to equal that you stop grinding for greensteel, all on your own because its easier?

give me some examples, i'm hard pressed to think of anything that would be "close enough" so that it's balanced with greensteel, without it being good enough to just skip greensteel. There's a lot of levels coming up, and i dont even want to think of what they will have to do to the loot tables, like everyone wants, to make the loot better, or close enough. And if its too good, skipping shroud altogether, just like every other raid cept for an item or two, is exactly what might happen anyway.

Not sure i communicated clearly here or not, but to me its a double edged sword. How do you get "better loot tables" without it negating greensteel at level 17-20? At same time, is greesteel simply still going to be the best at those same levels?

R

Borror0
12-07-2008, 06:03 PM
I mean, if they nerf greensteel weapons (or items), I can't imagine how furious I'd be. Spending all that time to acquire that stuff, only to get it nerfed.
Even if it's still really good?

Sounds like me. My favourite quest is Xorian Cipher.
hehe, I'm addicted to that quest as well. Although it's an undead quest, it's actually a fun one.

Creative, dynamic and good loot. What else to ask for?

as to the attack animation, noone forces you to complete your chain. move if its that irritating; unless i'm feeling lazy i try to keep side stepping. In fact it makes combat more active ^^
But having to move for that irritates me.

SableShadow
12-07-2008, 06:04 PM
I think that both will have to be done. Nerf Green Steel a little to make it much easier for random loot to keep up.

The upgrade we have gotten from the Shroud was simply too much for level 20. I don't even want to think about how they can or will make something better. The thought scares me.


Disagree.

If they keep the current gear maximums, but simply let the levels rise, we'll have a lot of gear that will compete with greensteel...honestly, we already do, it's just rare.

I already do at the current level cap.

In addition, if they keep their current trends of building set bonuses into gear, but extend that to weapons, people are going to find particular weapon/shield/armor/item combos that they like more than greensteel even if they don't find particular combos they like better.

Borror0
12-07-2008, 06:10 PM
In addition, if they keep their current trends of building set bonuses into gear, but extend that to weapons, people are going to find particular weapon/shield/armor/item combos that they like more than greensteel even if they don't find particular combos they like better.
I am not sure of that but even if it's possible that's named loot. Not Random loot.

Junts
12-07-2008, 06:12 PM
I haven't played Module 8 content a lot. The mob designed ****ed me off and I didn't return.

However, I played Module 7 more than I played during any Module. I had a lot of spare time this summer. So I played DDO, a lot. I was in the first group to complete Xy'zzy on Normal and Hard. I also killed Suulomades the same day. I then got back on timer for Hound the moment I could. As for Vision, it have less completions but still a lot.

So, explain me, what about Module 7 have I missed?

...like? Lesser Armor Class? Lowest DPS? Ability to shield block?

Sorry. I don't see it.

Here's the thing; I don't need more armor class than I have now. I don't know what people who have more are doing with it; the tweaks to suulomades mean hes hitting them anyway on elite, and I'm able to hit those happy ac points with some effort (and easily once i have the ring). so all that grinding for their +8 armor bracers, raimments, etc to get them to 75-80, and .. well, frankly, mod8 content was well designed in that 60 ac is more than you need there. they brought mob to hit down with it, and i simply don't see what those people are gaining from that level of ac.

second, shield blocking is, in fact, a really big deal. especially with his to-hit back up, sheild block tanking suulomades is much more effective than beat-on-him tanking (I can and have done both), because when you block he can't curse you. I also routinely intimitank the demon queen to hold her in place, since when I shield block she can't knock me down. there are numerous other situations where the blocking option - especially the blocking dr, given the hound shields - is very effective.

Queen Lailat hit you for 14 points of slash damage; 35 was stopped by your damage reduction.
Suulomades hit you for 20 points of slash damage; 35 was stopped by your damage reduction.


And I have none of the feats for that. Its a huge deal.

With the new, annoying titan aggro patterns (only responsive to people moving on the ground floor) I have seen (am yet to try, but trying it next time) a shield blocking ac tank simply move him around by standing there and letting him try to do the whirlwind melee attack .. and survived it no problem (go go blocking dr!)


less dps, sure, but I steal aggro from people (especially these flavor of the month dex build monk things, cause frankly they hit a lot but not all that hard, and I now swing as fast as they do .. 40+ per swing, even with a lot less swings, adds up pretty fast).

would i lvoe to be a fighter with the option to do both? sure, and mod9 with +4 tomes may allow me to pick up the twf line up to greater. I'd love that option - but I'd still use my shield a lot, because there's a lot of times it's useful.

I'm glad you played the mod7 raids into the ground. Yes, the blanket immunities for some of the mobs in mod8 suck (acutally, its just 2 quests worth, none of those giants in either the monestary or enter the kobold..both quests where dps works quite well..)

frankly if you ask me the point of the mob immunities in both prey and stealer of souls is not to encourage con damage, its to encourage thsoe quests to be forcibly zerged and mobs avoided, the way they were obviously designed to be played (with their timers, etc).

i dont disagree with a lot of your suggestions, borr: i think a greater parrying weapon type is more than called for, and some catchup with weapons in mod9 would be helpful, however, i gotta ask

does dps suck or not? greensteel weapons are only great for dps, yet yo uguys constantly pan dps and act like its useless compared to con etc etc. its just so inferior .. but greensteel weapons are still excessively good? its one or the other, not both. both is a little illogical.

personally i think a big problem with chest loot is the lack of diversity in what kinds of weapons are good. none of you have enough smiting or banishing rapiers, or that kind of weaponry. you will all be happy to find a cursespewing of puncturing rapier or similar.

the problem is that the combination of wop and banishing on piercing weapons means that only piercing weapons are worth getting in random loot. finding blunt or slashing weapons sucks


armor/accessories in random loot is entirely another matter, as random armor tables are in desperate need of a serious revamp. weapon tables, however, are mostly in need of scimitars, longswords, battle axes and warhammers to be something people want to find for any reason.

SableShadow
12-07-2008, 06:15 PM
I am not sure of that but even if it's possible that's named loot. Not Random loot.

Depends if you mean "general purpose" or "specialty".

For example, I dual icy burst of greater ele bane piercers for fire eles, and dual anarchic of greater undead bane maces for sorjek. These items are rare at the current cap, but outperform (in my experience) greensteel armed folks (both lightning II and mineral II) for the tasks I put them to.

Uska
12-07-2008, 06:34 PM
Umm lot to read but I agree with most of it I hate green steel myself and what it has done to the game, and your right its a great quest wish more of them were like it, it really had a dnd feel for me.

Borror0
12-07-2008, 06:35 PM
Here's the thing; I don't need more armor class than I have now. I don't know what people who have more are doing with it; the tweaks to suulomades mean hes hitting them anyway on elite, and I'm able to hit those happy ac points with some effort (and easily once i have the ring). so all that grinding for their +8 armor bracers, raimments, etc to get them to 75-80, and .. well, frankly, mod8 content was well designed in that 60 ac is more than you need there. they brought mob to hit down with it, and i simply don't see what those people are gaining from that level of ac.
Can't speak for how Module 8 has affected the game, but I could certainly use more AC than the 65 I had pre-Module 8.

less dps, sure, but I steal aggro from people (especially these flavor of the month dex build monk things, cause frankly they hit a lot but not all that hard, and I now swing as fast as they do .. 40+ per swing, even with a lot less swings, adds up pretty fast).
:rolleyes:

does dps suck or not? greensteel weapons are only great for dps, yet yo uguys constantly pan dps and act like its useless compared to con etc etc. its just so inferior .. but greensteel weapons are still excessively good? its one or the other, not both. both is a little illogical.

Thing is, I am attacking two issues at the same time.

I'll use my roommate's analogy to debunk this.

Using DPS to kill mobs is like using a tricycle in a F1 race. However, Green Steel weapons are tricycles with nuclear reaction strapped on their back. They still can't outdo F1s, but they are totally kicking the other tricycles' butt. Forbid F1's and you will see that the Green Steel tricycle will kick everything's butt.

That is what happens against named mobs and will happen if they lower mobs' HP.

Borror0
12-07-2008, 06:38 PM
For example, I dual icy burst of greater ele bane piercers for fire eles, and dual anarchic of greater undead bane maces for sorjek.
How often do you see weapons like that?

Junts
12-07-2008, 06:42 PM
I know my toon doesn't do great dps; he was not designed to. He does enough other things (umd, casting 30 point resists, lay on hands, intimitanking, etc), that he does 'acceptable' or 'average' dps is entirely ok; and he does, in fact, do acceptable to average dps.

more than 65 ac, sure - when i can self-buff to 71, though, with the ring, well, i gotta ask again - whats the big gain? I'm seriously considering giving up 1 ac to use the triple levik's modifiers: 30% threat and 20% healing amp vs 1 ac (plus, you keep your ac using effect weapon! huge advantage).

of course, that leads back to how for 95% of play, dragontouched robes are better than icy raiments (get your heightened 4 when using your wops, plus get other modifiers your icy does not give you).

sure, your min2 and raimments are better for purple fights, though the assertion that ac matters for most purple fights for more than 1-2 party members is completley laughable.

sableshadow is right, by the way: greensteel is better dps because its a more reliable source of dps, but isolated random weapons are better for their specific purposes (holyburst silver geob, etc).


every toon makes tradeoffs; trading off dps is frankly one that is not that huge a deal, as long as you are still useful in that regard

Eudimio
12-07-2008, 06:47 PM
Depends if you mean "general purpose" or "specialty".

For example, I dual icy burst of greater ele bane piercers for fire eles, and dual anarchic of greater undead bane maces for sorjek. These items are rare at the current cap, but outperform (in my experience) greensteel armed folks (both lightning II and mineral II) for the tasks I put them to.

I agree with you about the availabilty of random specialty weapons that will outperform greensteel weapons. Salt, steam, or dust weapons would be an upgrade against fire elementals. And mineral weapons can outperform those sorjek whackers (it's really close though).

The current best specialty weapons are +5 (alignment or elemental burst) of greater (mob) bane, rr (you!). At level 20 it will be +5 (alignment burst) of greater (mob) bane, rr (you!).

I only have ONE weapon that is better than it's comprable green steel counterpart: +4 holy silver battleaxe of greater lawful outsider bane, rr warforged.

Borror0
12-07-2008, 06:54 PM
I know my toon doesn't do great dps; he was not designed to.
I was laughing of the comment you made where you said that your toon out-DPS Dex-based TWF.

Oh, and even if you would (which you don't), Str-based monk splashed can get an AC as high as you and much better DPS.

sableshadow is right, by the way: greensteel is better dps because its a more reliable source of dps, but isolated random weapons are better for their specific purposes (holyburst silver geob, etc).
I know she is right, but you have to get one these.

That doesn't happen often. Even for DfC.

Junts
12-07-2008, 07:03 PM
I was laughing of the comment you made where you said that your toon out-DPS Dex-based TWF.

Oh, and even if you would (which you don't), Str-based monk splashed can get an AC as high as you and much better DPS.

I know she is right, but you have to get one these.

That doesn't happen often. Even for DfC.

i didn't, strictly speaking, say i flat out dpsed them - i steal aggro from them, which means at times i do better dps (notably, when divine sacrifice is involved, smites are being used, and critical hits are happening).

and yes, they can do that, and I have run with them - they do some things, I do other things, and frankly they work better together than pretending that everyone should be any one of those things.


your problem, borr, isn't that you want to make a s/b character, its that you want your s/b character to do what they aren't good at.

SableShadow
12-07-2008, 07:05 PM
How often do you see weapons like that?


Rare *now*...working under the assumption that, as the level cap increases, chest loot will have to rise to match.

Holy of Pure good used to be rare, for example, as were stat damagers (made a career out of a single wounding dagger, once upon a time...).

Holy Burst Silver of Pure Good or of Greater Bane will become more common when the cap goes up.

Not saying greensteel won't still be good or even best...just saying the delta between best spec and good enough will come down to a manageable level.

Korvek
12-07-2008, 07:06 PM
well, frankly, mod8 content was well designed in that 60 ac is more than you need there.

Given what I've experienced in those quests, I disagree. I get hit regularly when a little above 60.

Eudimio
12-07-2008, 07:13 PM
your problem, borr, isn't that you want to make a s/b character, its that you want your s/b character to do what they aren't good at.

No. He wants them to MATTER. They don't. Your's doesn't.

Do you realize that TWF characters aren't doing "a little" more dps than S&B? They are doing 2x, 3x, 4x, and even 5x as much dps as your paladin.

Tharlak
12-07-2008, 07:15 PM
Just ran this quest today on a new 5th leveler. And it reminded me of why I love it. All the points above apply. You really feel like being part of a story on this quest. It's balanced, it's fun, there's a challenge, but you can teeter on the brink of failure at several moments without a party wipe. New high level content you either hit a home run or it's epic failure, there is no struggle but we made it.

A great post.

maddmatt70
12-07-2008, 07:25 PM
Rare *now*...working under the assumption that, as the level cap increases, chest loot will have to rise to match.

Holy of Pure good used to be rare, for example, as were stat damagers (made a career out of a single wounding dagger, once upon a time...).

Holy Burst Silver of Pure Good or of Greater Bane will become more common when the cap goes up.

Not saying greensteel won't still be good or even best...just saying the delta between best spec and good enough will come down to a manageable level.

There is no evidence that silver or the like on weapons will be more common. The only thing about the loot in the future that I have heard thus far is that there will be a holy avenger paladin weapon which indicates that raid loot will get better since undoubtedly the holy avenger will be a rare from a specific quest or raid loot and not something you will find in the common loot tables.

I think they need to improve the common loot more then just make some things more common. You can make better greensteels then even the examples you list for those specific situations except for the holy silver greater bane weapon.

Korvek
12-07-2008, 07:42 PM
I agree w/ matt, that the better situation would be to change/raise the loot tables on random loot.

Just yesterday in a PnP game I was playing, we were on semi-low level characters and we happened to get lucky after a particularly difficult encounter and find a single Major magic item (Had to roll a 100 on a d100). Running strictly by the loot tables, it came out as a +5 Axiomatic Wounding Longsword of Speed. This was after an extremely lucky series of rolls on the loot tables(It was literally an epic-type weapon, 11-13 or so was the total mod I think, when the max should be +10 for non-epic).

Now, the DM can either nerf the weapon's abilities through whatever means necessary(including just stating some rules, despite a player or two complaining) and then let the players keep what it becomes, or scale everything according to the power of the weapon to ensure encounters aren't trivial. There's one problem with scaling though: only a small fraction of the players has a weapon of anywhere close to that power level. So, to make up for that, loot will have to begin scaling quite a bit as well.

The problem is that it becomes a vicious cycle. First loot inflates, then enemies. To make up for the new enemy inflation, better loot needs to come out. To make up for the better loot, enemies need to be inflated even further. See the problem? In DDO, Green Steel is roughly equivalent to the above longsword. It sets off a chain reaction.

That Power Creep will exist no matter the system; I do concede that point. However, the relative power of the Green Steel weaponry and the desire for better equipment will cause the inflation to grow exponentially rather than following an ideally linear path.

I'd much rather nerf the Longsword than deal with scaling. Even if I initially were to allow it into the game, I would quickly cause its destruction or I would weaken it upon realizing my error. Yes, there would be complaints. However, the game would be the better off for it.

Xyfiel
12-07-2008, 09:11 PM
Borror what do you think of:
Making shroud only give out small/mediums(so you would complete tier II quicker) and have another high end raid give out larges(1-3 small, 4-5 and underwater chests medium). A greensteel rollback so to say as it would mean taking longer to get top end gs items. Which at cap of 20, would be more in line with chest drops. That way level 20 casual players could do a few shrouds and get a tier II item, while the powergamers can get their dualshards. Both would be done quicker because more ings would drop for the raid they are doing. Biggest complaint will come from the people who have their gs items done. Nothing to stop from adding choices, clearly shroud type crafting was a big hit.

Please note the "more in line".

sirgog
12-07-2008, 09:17 PM
Just yesterday in a PnP game I was playing, we were on semi-low level characters and we happened to get lucky after a particularly difficult encounter and find a single Major magic item (Had to roll a 100 on a d100). Running strictly by the loot tables, it came out as a +5 Axiomatic Wounding Longsword of Speed. This was after an extremely lucky series of rolls on the loot tables(It was literally an epic-type weapon, 11-13 or so was the total mod I think, when the max should be +10 for non-epic).

Now, the DM can either nerf the weapon's abilities through whatever means necessary(including just stating some rules, despite a player or two complaining) and then let the players keep what it becomes, or scale everything according to the power of the weapon to ensure encounters aren't trivial. There's one problem with scaling though: only a small fraction of the players has a weapon of anywhere close to that power level. So, to make up for that, loot will have to begin scaling quite a bit as well.

The problem is that it becomes a vicious cycle. First loot inflates, then enemies. To make up for the new enemy inflation, better loot needs to come out. To make up for the better loot, enemies need to be inflated even further. See the problem? In DDO, Green Steel is roughly equivalent to the above longsword. It sets off a chain reaction.

That Power Creep will exist no matter the system; I do concede that point. However, the relative power of the Green Steel weaponry and the desire for better equipment will cause the inflation to grow exponentially rather than following an ideally linear path.

I'd much rather nerf the Longsword than deal with scaling. Even if I initially were to allow it into the game, I would quickly cause its destruction or I would weaken it upon realizing my error. Yes, there would be complaints. However, the game would be the better off for it.


Problem is, if you nerf the weapon or somehow otherwise remove it from the character, you run the risk that the players will think "ah well, no point aspiring to improve my character, as the DM nerf bat will just stop that". Then players stop trying to improve their characters, and then leave the game, as that's one of the main things MMOs are about.

Now with such an extreme example as in your PnP game, I'd be for the nerf bat. But with Shroud weapons, IMO it's not an option to nerf them, even though they should have been made much, much weaker. Instead we need viable alternative weapons for boss fights that are not **** that are readily available, with Greensteel remaining better but not by a huge margin.

Example - taking mid level quests, say Stormcleave; assume a non-twinked party. Someone in the group has a Giant Stalker's Knife they looted and are tearing up the Hill Giants with it. But the other melee using a +2 Holy Longsword isn't too far behind - maybe 15-20% less damage. Compare this to the difference between using a Mineral 2 on Harry, and using a +5 Transmuter. A fight where everyone has the former will take no resources (or a mere few Heal scrolls on Hard); a fight where everyone has the latter will see Clerics burning Heal scrolls and maybe even mana pots, even on normal.


But if, on the other hand, it wasn't too hard to find a named +5 Holy Silver Greatsword, or a +1 Transmuting of Greater Evil Outsider Bane, the Mineral 2 would still be superior but wouldn't outclass all the alternatives. Worth grinding for? Yes. Necessary? No.


Gwylans is a group I'm happy to run at any time of the day, any day of the week, as I know that nearly any PUG will get through it, unless it's elite and the group is unequiped, low level, and stupid. Shroud and other endgame quests are less like this - on the peak times (US weekend), joining a Shroud group is a lucky dip - most are good enough to beat it, some just cost the Clerics a fortune - in short, PUG-friendly in off-peak times, PUG-unfriendly in peak.

sirgog
12-07-2008, 09:25 PM
Edit: Ninja post FTW!


There are only so many buffs you can give weapons, right? +5 holy of pure good is a level 14 weapon, true? level 20 quests drop level 17 weapons, right? Given the current trends, the buffs for weapons across the available buffs have to go up to make them level equivalent.

Yeah, the only weapon mods that are truly powerful at endgame anyway are Wounding, Puncturing (19-20 or better base crit only), Transmuting and Greater Bane; maybe Holy and Holy Burst. All others are simply situational.

Making a +3 Greater Bane weapon higher min level because it is also Crippling is a joke, and the cause of the weakness of random loot.

SableShadow
12-07-2008, 09:28 PM
There is no evidence that silver or the like on weapons will be more common.

There are only so many buffs you can give weapons, right? +5 holy of pure good is a level 14 weapon, true? level 20 quests drop level 17 weapons, right? Given the current trends, the buffs for weapons across the available buffs have to go up to make them level equivalent.

SableShadow
12-07-2008, 09:29 PM
You can make better greensteels then even the examples you list for those specific situations except for the holy silver greater bane weapon.


At what cost? And...how many weapons? My argument is not that greensteel will be replaced, but that weapons from chests will be "good enough" compared to greensteel.

SableShadow
12-07-2008, 09:32 PM
Edit: Ninja post FTW!



Yeah, the only weapon mods that are truly powerful at endgame anyway are Wounding, Puncturing (19-20 or better base crit only), Transmuting and Greater Bane; maybe Holy and Holy Burst. All others are simply situational.

Making a +3 Greater Bane weapon higher min level because it is also Crippling is a joke, and the cause of the weakness of random loot.

Not all random chest loot will be ubar. Enough of it will be 'best spec' to cover the greensteel vs chest loot delta. Even moreso if the devs continue their penchant for set bonuses.

SableShadow
12-07-2008, 09:37 PM
All others are simply situational.


And yet, those situations occur often enough for me to keep those "gimp weapons" in my inventory at all times. :D

Not that anyone notices, of course. :p

Mhykke
12-07-2008, 09:46 PM
Just yesterday in a PnP game I was playing, we were on semi-low level characters and we happened to get lucky after a particularly difficult encounter and find a single Major magic item (Had to roll a 100 on a d100). Running strictly by the loot tables, it came out as a +5 Axiomatic Wounding Longsword of Speed. This was after an extremely lucky series of rolls on the loot tables(It was literally an epic-type weapon, 11-13 or so was the total mod I think, when the max should be +10 for non-epic).

Now, the DM can either nerf the weapon's abilities through whatever means necessary(including just stating some rules, despite a player or two complaining) and then let the players keep what it becomes, or scale everything according to the power of the weapon to ensure encounters aren't trivial. There's one problem with scaling though: only a small fraction of the players has a weapon of anywhere close to that power level. So, to make up for that, loot will have to begin scaling quite a bit as well.

The problem is that it becomes a vicious cycle. First loot inflates, then enemies. To make up for the new enemy inflation, better loot needs to come out. To make up for the better loot, enemies need to be inflated even further. See the problem? In DDO, Green Steel is roughly equivalent to the above longsword. It sets off a chain reaction.

That Power Creep will exist no matter the system; I do concede that point. However, the relative power of the Green Steel weaponry and the desire for better equipment will cause the inflation to grow exponentially rather than following an ideally linear path.

I'd much rather nerf the Longsword than deal with scaling. Even if I initially were to allow it into the game, I would quickly cause its destruction or I would weaken it upon realizing my error. Yes, there would be complaints. However, the game would be the better off for it.

I agree to a certain extent, that's why I said turbine's in a tough spot in regards to greensteel.

I understand powercreep. The problem though, which you didn't address, is that the weapons were created by the DM, after a long grind for them.

To make it more like your PnP example, let's say that you came up with a crafting system for the group, all the rules, all the weapon combos. After a year of your group grinding and playing to make use of that system, you decide "whoah, this is too powerful, I'm nerfing all the equipment you've made." The problem is, after that point, players had already put in the time and effort creating the items by your own rules. Why should the players trust any other kind of system, or put in the time to get to know a new system, that you introduce, after you set the precedent that you're willing to negate their previous effort and time spent?

Greensteel isn't just a random lucky roll. It's the product of a huge grind. I agree with you that turbine should've thought about the power creep earlier on, and maybe not have made things so powerful. But after all this time for turbine to go back and throw the nerf bat on this stuff would leave a lot of people with bad tastes in their mouths.


Serious question. Everyone is saying, "Dont nerf greensteel." I understand why.
Everyone is saying, "but raise loot tables to come close so all players are at somewhat even playing field, or closer at the very least." I understand that as well.

Question part of the question: Exactly what would you hope to find, at levels 17-20, that would be closer to equal than the shroud greensteel, since arguably its where the best loot in the game thus far is? Without it being better, or so close to equal that you stop grinding for greensteel, all on your own because its easier?

give me some examples, i'm hard pressed to think of anything that would be "close enough" so that it's balanced with greensteel, without it being good enough to just skip greensteel. There's a lot of levels coming up, and i dont even want to think of what they will have to do to the loot tables, like everyone wants, to make the loot better, or close enough. And if its too good, skipping shroud altogether, just like every other raid cept for an item or two, is exactly what might happen anyway.

Not sure i communicated clearly here or not, but to me its a double edged sword. How do you get "better loot tables" without it negating greensteel at level 17-20? At same time, is greesteel simply still going to be the best at those same levels?

R

I would think it would just be a whole new slew of high level weapon effects. Superior bane, or maybe add in some effects of things already in the game, like a random chance at disintegration or something. The game doesn't just have to stick with properties in game now, so things like a holy silver of greater evil outsider bane is the only thing you could find. What if there were holy silver of superior evil outsider bane (so you don't have to worry about finding a holy silver of greater bane with a high +, as now a low + holy silver of superior bane would also be a valid option), or holy silver of disintegration, etc. etc. A whole new list of high level item properties would make random loot more interesting, and desirable, at levels 17-20.

The10man
12-07-2008, 10:07 PM
Borror what do you think of:
Making shroud only give out small/mediums(so you would complete tier II quicker) and have another high end raid give out larges(1-3 small, 4-5 and underwater chests medium). A greensteel rollback so to say as it would mean taking longer to get top end gs items. Which at cap of 20, would be more in line with chest drops. That way level 20 casual players could do a few shrouds and get a tier II item, while the powergamers can get their dualshards. Both would be done quicker because more ings would drop for the raid they are doing. Biggest complaint will come from the people who have their gs items done. Nothing to stop from adding choices, clearly shroud type crafting was a big hit.

Please note the "more in line".

All this would do is make gamers like me who have less time to grind be even farther behind. I haven't got my bow to teir 3 yet (running the shroud on two characters to pull larges although both have nice teir 2 items). I play hard when I can get on but with a wife, a full time job that involves emergency call, and an 18 month old my play time is very limited. If they nerf it that might be the last straw after the amount of time I would then feel I wasted getting it. I agree that the power gamers should be ahead of me, but if I tag along on a run with them I should be able to pull my weight in kills or skills and in not ending up dead or a detriment. My suggestion would be to expand on the shroud story line and drop larges in the other quest as a small chance drop, leave the shroud alone as far as drops are concerned.

SableShadow
12-07-2008, 10:17 PM
I kinda had to laugh when the shroud got shut down. I really didnt give two @#$%@ if they shut it down and I wouldnt care if they pulled it from the game permanently.

I ****ing give up on people.

You're on your own, Borror0.

CrimsonEagle
12-07-2008, 10:17 PM
I agree with the op. Very well written.

I really dislike the grind. Really dislike it.

Because of this, no matter how much I play, unless I am willing to relent and start grinding the raids, I will never, ever be on par with the people who ONLY run these and are crushed if they are shut down. I mean really....do people consider that to be fun...grinding I mean?

I kinda had to laugh when the shroud got shut down. I really didnt give two @#$%@ if they shut it down and I wouldnt care if they pulled it from the game permanently.

This was never what D&D was about. I argue with people all of the time about how this is not anything like D&D. The grind they have introduced is just one example.

CrimsonEagle
12-07-2008, 10:31 PM
I dont know what "D&D" game you people have been playing, but I guess Im glad I didnt play after AD&D. The kind of adventures we used to play, it wasnt fun running around with +1 Longswords, fighting Orcs...hell, it was fun traveling the planes and fighting gods and questing for Artifacts so you all can say what you want (only read the last few posts) but Im perfectly happy with the direction the game is moving and look for more powerful items/foes in the future.




...lol..."you have adventured for 2+ yrs and you just now find a weapon thats worth it, congrats guys" NO THANKS!...


So, did you get all of these artifacts by going into the same quest 60+ times in order to craft some super item?

Hey...my first ninja.

Your right, we did get some pretty powerful stuff, but in a very different way.

Tat2Freak
12-07-2008, 10:33 PM
I dont know what "D&D" game you people have been playing, but I guess Im glad I didnt play after AD&D. The kind of adventures we used to play, it wasnt fun running around with +1 Longswords, fighting Orcs...hell, it was fun traveling the planes and fighting gods and questing for Artifacts so you all can say what you want (only read the last few posts) but Im perfectly happy with the direction the game is moving and look for more powerful items/foes in the future.




...lol..."you have adventured for 2+ yrs and you just now find a weapon thats worth it, congrats guys" NO THANKS!...

Mhykke
12-07-2008, 10:33 PM
I kinda had to laugh when the shroud got shut down. I really didnt give two @#$%@ if they shut it down and I wouldnt care if they pulled it from the game permanently.


Very sympathetic of you.

It's nice that you felt joy (even though it was "kinda") at others that had a part of their enjoyable DDO experience taken away from them.

Very unselfish of you that you wouldn't care if it was gone for good either. Way to think of others.

Borror0
12-07-2008, 10:38 PM
I ****ing give up on people.

You're on your own, Borror0.
Really exasperating, isn't it? By the way, you can call me Borror. :P

Junts
12-07-2008, 10:40 PM
So, did you get all of these artifacts by going into the same quest 60+ times in order to craft some super item?

Hey...my first ninja.

Your right, we did get some pretty powerful stuff, but in a very different way.


Gentle question:

What alternative do you think Turbine has? can you imagine the amount of design, balance, and playtesting that goes into making just 1 good hourlong quest? do you think that they or any company has the resources to create 5-6 times as many so people don't have to run the same ones?

if no, what the hell do you expect them to do to give you some incentive to continue to play?

SableShadow
12-07-2008, 10:45 PM
Really exasperating, isn't it? By the way, you can call me Borror. :P

I was being formal. :P

Just realllly tired of the debate, after a few years. Tired in a lotta ways.

Borror0
12-07-2008, 10:47 PM
But if, on the other hand, it wasn't too hard to find a named +5 Holy Silver Greatsword, or a +1 Transmuting of Greater Evil Outsider Bane, the Mineral 2 would still be superior but wouldn't outclass all the alternatives. Worth grinding for? Yes. Necessary? No.
The problem is the following: Green Steel weapons don't fit the curve.

Whatever progression you are going to find, Green Steel weapons will be an oddity or you will have very overpowered lower levels.

SableShadow
12-07-2008, 10:50 PM
The problem is the following: Green Steel weapons don't fit the curve.

Whatever progression you are going to find, Green Steel weapons will be an oddity or you will have very overpowered lower levels.


*That* is spot on. The grind mechanic is ... weird for DnD, but necessary for any MMO. The question really is, "Where do we go from here?".

bobbryan2
12-07-2008, 11:38 PM
I don't really see that there is much debate.

Mod 4 was fun. Mob to hits were a little too high... we said so, but it mostly fell on deaf ears. Mod 5 had it's moments, but the dealings with the Abbot largely ruined the mod in most people's minds.

Mod 6 reaaaally pushed the mob 'to hits' to all new highs. Mod 7 basically didn't even exist, and Mod 8 had all of 4 quests.

Each mod just exacerbates the problems the mod before it had with regards to mob to hit and mob hp.

I don't know a single person that has more fun beating on a giant now than they did in Gianthold. Pretty much every last person I know thinks that an individual creature is less fun than it was a year ago.

maddmatt70
12-08-2008, 02:44 AM
So, did you get all of these artifacts by going into the same quest 60+ times in order to craft some super item?

Hey...my first ninja.

Your right, we did get some pretty powerful stuff, but in a very different way.

Lets put it this way why haven't you quit the game. Seriously we have seen a grand total of 12 quests at the end game in the last year. If you play the end game at all you are repeating the quests there is no way to avoid it. Might as well craft an item or loot something nice while you are repeating the quests. You can level up character after character which is something many people like to do, but that is also a grind I mean how many melee characters can somebody make, how many arcanes, clerics, etc.. This is DDO that is the reality its about repeatability for sure, but it is also about playing with friends, teamwork, loot, character building, etc. If you don't like it why are you playing?

DoctorWhofan
12-08-2008, 02:55 AM
Me <--- (heart) Tempest's Spine.

(loks at Sig.)


:D

Vorn
12-08-2008, 06:02 AM
Interesting read, and late to the thread. I really enjoy the lvl 7-10 range and quests like Gwylans which have a lot of everything. But, then I love the shroud as well--particularly as I pug it and you just never know what you're going to get in a pug.

I often wonder how long it ought take to kill a monster at each CR in order of the fight to be 1) challenging and 2) not boring. In playing high lvl PnP some of those fights were astounding long, but they were rarely boring. Ought it take the same amount of time for a lvl 16 to dps down a frost giant as it does a lvl 3 to take out a kobold in water works? How much longer would be the right fit?

I think the AC/BAB problem will remain as long as it's a d20 system--there just isn't enough spread and this is more noticeable the higher lvl the game gets to.

Lorien_the_First_One
12-08-2008, 07:33 AM
I don't say this to you often Borror, but I'm in almost total agreement with you. I also very much enjoy the "mid levels" that others seem to want to power through. Gwens is a really great quest, and TS is my favorite raid.

For me the tipping point was GH. In the GH paras still worked, HPs were larger but you could still use vorpal, DPS, or stat options. Monster to hit and damage was getting high, but you could still get a tank protected without unreasonable amounts of rare gear and the damage wasn't so high that you couldn't manage it with good HP + heavy (or even mod) fort.

So GH wasn't bad, but it was the start of bad. It was clear that everything was a little over powered before that, but between the new enhancement system and the loot candy store that was GH the power creep became truely excessive at that point. Stat scores went insane. +6 items, vorpals, disrupters, etc started dropping from the sky like rain (and MAN falling vorpals can be dangerous, I know a guy that got chopped in half in a vorpal storm). +1 tomes started falling on a regular basis, so much so that the +1 of everything tome builds started showing up in the forums. GH was also the start of the real grind with the dragon scale armor. Still, even that wasn't too bad since none of that armor was "must have".

From there the loot started to get silly since it was already "maxed" and it became +5 of something useful +somthing dumb. That made much of what came from the chests look stupid and junky. And GS...well the GS T3, expecially double T3, took the grind to all new heights and decimate the loot table forever. Even two T2 weapons is enough to replace 99% of the weapons previously in a fighter's inventory.

And the 1million HP mobs aren't fun...they are just SLOW. Now on reds we don't have a challenging fight, we have a long one. And oh good lord, do portals need that many HP? It was a great idea, but way too many of them and way too many HP, its just dull and repetitive where as it could have been fun and refreshingly different. It is not fun that "trash mobs" all have 1 millin HP either... all that does is destroy all the different builds and make the best build the hasted-tempest-TWF because its all about number of swings with your stat damager or vorpals. You should have options, just like you did back in GH and earlier to stat damage, vorpal/special effect, or DPS.

I'm not sure how they can fix things now...I doubt they can make things better, I just hope they stop making things worse.

Aerendil
12-08-2008, 07:34 AM
Interesting read, and late to the thread. I really enjoy the lvl 7-10 range and quests like Gwylans which have a lot of everything.


Yep, that's just it for me as well. I'd even go so far as to extend it to levels 5 - 10.
It's in this range that a number of things happen (that Borror already pointed out), including:
- certain melees getting their specialty lines, boosting their power
- casters getting access to some nice spells (haste, being a big one)
- mob hps being slightly high, but certainly workable
- mob BABs being slightly high, but certainly workable
- mob DCs being average, so your spells will land successfully a good majority of the time
- lack of "uber" equipment. You might see some burst weaponry at this point, but your average level 7ish character won't be running around with twin WoP rapiers. Nor would they want to (see above comment about mob HPs being workable), since pure dps would be faster than stat damage still at this point.

To me that level range truly captured what DND was about. At no point did I feel like a god. At no point did my enemies feel like gods. It was just good fun.
And the straying form all of these points at endgame means the game is much less enjoyable. Simple as that.

Also further to Sableshadow's comment on grinding - I agree 100%.
Grinding in DDO just feels... wrong. To me DND was never about running the same dungeon over and over and over again to farm items. But as you pointed out, what else can you do in an MMO?
Well, this is the one reason I've asked for new quests. Sure, my number might seem high (when people ask for, say, 6 new dungeons in mod 9, I'd push for 10), but the reason being that we should have *options*. If you want to grind the Shroud constantly, then go for it. But if you'd rather do a new quest every night for those same ingredients, you'd burn out a lot slower.

One last comment - Borror, the minotaur! Good choice. I love the bull rush attack too, although I do wish the AI was still a little better.
One dungeon comes to mind, I forget which it is, but I'm pretty sure it's one of the House D ones (Depths series) where there's a minotaur behind a locked door just staring at you.
With the strength of a minotaur, he should be able to bull rush that door and send it flying from the hinges! Or even rip it off and throw it aside.

To me, that's something I always entertained in PnP DND and was somewhat disappointed never made it into DDO (although I can sympathize with the dev team and certainly understand why super AI is difficult to code and put into a game). But when fighting giants, I expect them to kick us halfway across a room, or pick us up and throw us, or swing a heavy club and knock us into the next room. No need to adjust the damage ratings - they're on par already, hahaha. But in PnP, if my 70hp Warrior just got thwacked for half his life, he certainly still wouldn't be standing there swinging away. He'd probably be on the other side of the room, dazed, and with an angry giant charging him.

*shrug*

EinarMal
12-08-2008, 07:58 AM
I agree as well, this is a very fun and good game up to gianthold, and goes quickly down hill after that.

I essentially treat GH as cap, and don't play much above that any longer. I will take a quick run around the new quests each mod (sadly does not take long anymore) and run them all one time. Then I go back to trying some new build or other.

I sadly get bored now though, and have been taking breaks for several months then play for a month or two.

Grinding, loot inflation, and stupid mob design have pretty much killed the game beyond GH in my opinion. The thought of having to run one quest or raid like the shroud over and over to get loot just bores me to tears.

VonBek
12-08-2008, 08:57 AM
Good thoughts. I like Redwillow's Ruins, & Gwylans. (I enjoy the adventure areas, more than OP, though). I understand many players feel that Greensteel's benefits make the stuff seem essential. However, I just don't see myself worrying about a byzantine chore - I already have a job:D.

If the new quests from 3BC & Korthos show the shape of things to come, I'll be alright.

Borror0
12-08-2008, 09:30 AM
Also further to Sableshadow's comment on grinding - I agree 100%.
Grinding in DDO just feels... wrong. To me DND was never about running the same dungeon over and over and over again to farm items. But as you pointed out, what else can you do in an MMO?
Ya, necessary evil.

However, Turbine could make it lesser than it is.

Vary it. - I don't come from an MMO heavy background but I am sure other MMOs have interesting grind ideas.
Make it nice, not a must-do. Otherwise, you're stuck with frustrated casual gamers or bored powergamers.
Don't add more grind, add new grinds. After a while, make the grind easier or put something similar or better requiring no grind.
Don't bind everything.


Well, this is the one reason I've asked for new quests. Sure, my number might seem high (when people ask for, say, 6 new dungeons in mod 9, I'd push for 10), but the reason being that we should have *options*. If you want to grind the Shroud constantly, then go for it. But if you'd rather do a new quest every night for those same ingredients, you'd burn out a lot slower.
Personally, I'd put 10 end game quest. That is, to me, the magical number for a Module.

However, Module 9.0 will be a jump from 16 to 20... so I really have no clue.

Me <--- (heart) Tempest's Spine.
Should have seen that one coming.

Borror0
12-08-2008, 09:45 AM
I think the AC/BAB problem will remain as long as it's a d20 system--there just isn't enough spread and this is more noticeable the higher lvl the game gets to.
If by AC/BAB problem you mean making it too hard for PC to keep up with NPC'S to-hit, I don't see that.

The first problem right now is that we have stackable bonuses that adds up. If you don't have it, you are that many points behind. The more you are short of, the more behind you make.

The second problem is that we have big bonus with no lower equivalent. Green Steel items give +4 Insight bonus to AC. But, what gives +1? +2 +3? Of Parrying? Levik's set? Neither of those are really appealing. Levik's because you need to sacrifice something Chaosgarde for it. On top of it, it's raid loot. As for of Parrying, I don't think I need to explain how bad on an enchantment that is and how weaker it is compared to Green Steel items.

The third problem is something I simply don't understand. As Riot once eloquently put it "There is some silly backward thinking at Turbine." I don't know why they decided to put the to-hit that high. After all, they control the mobs. they design it. They can control the progression. So, what made them decide to increase the to-hit this high, I have no clue. Right now, we are stuck in an itemflation to fight the mobflation that they have 100% control over. I just don't get it. Maybe that has something to do with how they design NPC. I don't know.

By the way, it'd be cool if we would know how you guys set the HP, to-hit, AC, etc. on mobs. Just saying.

Finally, the last problem has to do with how much you can buff AC or debuff to-hit. That is something we will have to deal with. Let's just hope Turbine will not balance by assuming we will have Inspire Heroics, Aura of good (+5), Barkskin (+5), Recitation and that the named has been fully debuffed. Otherwise, we are screwed.

If they play it well, we will have no problem. However, it requires to do something about Dodge bonuses, adding more progressive bonus to AC and nerfing of mobs.

BlackSteel
12-08-2008, 09:48 AM
Each mod just exacerbates the problems the mod before it had with regards to mob to hit and mob hp.
.

the mob-to hits in the new quests arent bad at all, and 2/4 of the quests have mobs where the hp/lvl ratio is fine. The downside is that those quests come in a package, whats the point of running just 2 of them?

Josh
12-08-2008, 09:51 AM
I know my toon doesn't do great dps; he was not designed to. He does enough other things (umd, casting 30 point resists, lay on hands, intimitanking, etc), that he does 'acceptable' or 'average' dps is entirely ok; and he does, in fact, do acceptable to average dps.

more than 65 ac, sure - when i can self-buff to 71, though, with the ring, well, i gotta ask again - whats the big gain? I'm seriously considering giving up 1 ac to use the triple levik's modifiers: 30% threat and 20% healing amp vs 1 ac (plus, you keep your ac using effect weapon! huge advantage).

of course, that leads back to how for 95% of play, dragontouched robes are better than icy raiments (get your heightened 4 when using your wops, plus get other modifiers your icy does not give you).

sure, your min2 and raimments are better for purple fights, though the assertion that ac matters for most purple fights for more than 1-2 party members is completley laughable.

sableshadow is right, by the way: greensteel is better dps because its a more reliable source of dps, but isolated random weapons are better for their specific purposes (holyburst silver geob, etc).


every toon makes tradeoffs; trading off dps is frankly one that is not that huge a deal, as long as you are still useful in that regard

Please tell me how a SB Paladin is hitting a sustained 71 AC. What's the breakdown?

Thrudh
12-08-2008, 11:32 AM
Please tell me how a SB Paladin is hitting a sustained 71 AC. What's the breakdown?

Assume a dwarf 12/4 paladin/fighter

10 base
15 DT armor
9 MTS
5 Dex (Daggertooth belt, Dwarven Armor Mastery II, Fighter TS Mastery I)
5 Protection
3 Barkskin
1 Dodge Feat
2 Dodge Chaosguards
3 Dodge Chattering Ring or DT armor
4 Insight weapon or DT armor
5 Paladin Aura
2 Alchemical bonus on armor and shield
5 Combat Expertise
1 Haste

= 70 AC

Junts
12-08-2008, 11:44 AM
Assume a dwarf 12/4 paladin/fighter

10 base
15 DT armor
9 MTS
5 Dex (Daggertooth belt, Dwarven Armor Mastery II, Fighter TS Mastery I)
5 Protection
3 Barkskin
1 Dodge Feat
2 Dodge Chaosguards
3 Dodge Chattering Ring or DT armor
4 Insight weapon or DT armor
5 Paladin Aura
2 Alchemical bonus on armor and shield
5 Combat Expertise
1 Haste

= 70 AC

you need 15 paladin levels to have a 5 point aura of your own, so minus 1
I'm 2 points under this, without the mdb, or rather, am with chattering (eg, as i said, 66 selfbuffed, 72 raidbuffed, right now, i think you misread the raidbuffed ac as the sustained)

with that said, i find that adding two most of the time is a safe assumption, given the ridiculous amount of rangers in the game right now, I'm not too often without a +5 barkskin if I'm doing anything that's not soloing.

Josh
12-08-2008, 12:01 PM
Ahh using DT armor. I got ya.

VirieSquichie
12-08-2008, 12:25 PM
/agree with the OP.

On all counts.

Well said.

GeneralDiomedes
12-08-2008, 12:48 PM
Don't add more grind, add new grinds.

I want a new grind
One that wont make me sick
One that wont make me smash my screen
Or make me feel I have a habit to kick

I want a new grind
One that wont hurt my head
One that wont make my tendons inflame
Or make my eyes turn red

One that wont make me angry
Wondering what to do
One that makes me feel like I felt at level two
How I felt at level two .. yeah yeah

I want a new grind
One that's not uphill
One that dont cost too much
Or have too much to kill

I want a new grind
One that wont go away
One that wont keep me up all night
One that wont make me sleep all day

CrimsonEagle
12-08-2008, 03:55 PM
Lets put it this way why haven't you quit the game. Seriously we have seen a grand total of 12 quests at the end game in the last year. If you play the end game at all you are repeating the quests there is no way to avoid it. Might as well craft an item or loot something nice while you are repeating the quests. You can level up character after character which is something many people like to do, but that is also a grind I mean how many melee characters can somebody make, how many arcanes, clerics, etc.. This is DDO that is the reality its about repeatability for sure, but it is also about playing with friends, teamwork, loot, character building, etc. If you don't like it why are you playing?


I play the game because of the fighting mechanics. I still find them to be quite amazing.

Yes, what you describe is a type of grind, but it it different, at least to my eyes. I am not forced to run this one quest over and over again in order to get the best items in the game.

In all honesty, I would prefer to see the items as semi rare drops in all levels of quests.

Start picking up the twigs and funk etc. in the lower level chests. Perhaps throw in some small occasionally.

Mid level, small's are pretty common with med's thrown in on occasion.

High levels, med's are pretty common with larges thrown in.

Or at least SOMETHING to this effect.

If they want to keep it as is, where you have to run the raid to get your upgrades, that would be fine, but to require us to run that quest over and over again for the ingredients is asinine.

The way they have gone about it is to make it mandatory to either be super rich, or run the shroud over and over again.

So yes, you are correct, this game...all MMO's are a grind in one way or another. What I do not like about the way the Shroud is set up is that it is forcing a player to run that one quest till they puke, then force em to run it some more, and yes, if you want the best items in the game....if you want to compete you are forced to run these quests.

Now, I belive that is was SableShadow who was trying to stress that GS weapons are not needed, there are equivalents out there.

This is in part correct, but I have been running in this game for a little over two years now and have looted thousands of chests. In all of that time, I have pulled a few of the big 5 and ONE greater bane weapon...(greater undead bane I think it was). In other words, slim chances of getting something useful.

There are many quests in this game that I enjoy. The thing is, other than TS, I find the raids to be lacking. Now they have implemented a loot mechanic that makes me feel as if I have no choice but to run a raid that I have come to despise.

NTY.

There were other ways Turbine could have gone. IMO, (and yes, it is only my opinion which may or may not differ from the opinion of others), Turbine went the wrong way on this.

Am I going to leave the game over this? No. I haven't left yet because I still get enjoyment out of it and there is nothing out there to compare. This does not mean I have to agree with everything that has been done. Voicing opposition to certain aspects of the game can lead to a better game in the long run, and as long as there are people voicing opposition, it shows that they still care. When you no longer hear voices of opposition it means one of two things. They have nailed everything perfectly, (not likely), or the game is for all intents and purposes dead.

All in all, still a great game. They have just veered down the wrong path which I hope they will correct at some future point. If they don't? Well, I'm here until I'm gone.

Crimson.

spyderwolf
04-16-2010, 02:44 AM
I also read all of this. I agree in some respects, I also disagree in some others, so let me state a few.

Hi, my name is Mike and Mod6 is my favorite module. The quests are all beautiful and creative and challenging in their own ways, they can all be handled at level (or below; I did a 5man, 12-15 coal chamber run with my upcoming warchanter the other day and it was just great; most fun I have ever had in coal chamber). The monsters are challenging in a wide variety of ways (from orthons cleaves and ac to the knockdowns that annoy my cleric to the dispelling shamen that annoy my paladin, eladrin, gnolls, the beautiful monster variety of rainbow in the dark, et cetera). The quests are not slam whack kill it all fests (excepting possibly ritual, the most conventional of all 5 quests). Devils requires careful movement and activation of mobs, coal chamber is meant to be zerged, rainbow is unique and incredibly fun now (and just visually beautiful, the little red eyes of bearded devils in the dark looks amazing), and sleeping dust is this mod's gift to the caster. Cleric nuking works great, caster nuking works a bit less well, but well-specced wizards and sorcs are still extremely effective.

the capstone raid is one of the only quests that is still honestly fun and engaging for an hour even after you've run it 50 times. it also provides something for everyone and a pair of capstone fights that are very challenging and encourage strategy and ingenuity (good use of debuffs, concealment spells, etc).

a wide variety of weapons work well; con damage, effect (banishing/vorpal), dps works fine in these quests on normal or even hard if you are very well equipped. the real shame of mod6 is that it has so few quests; i would kill for some optional, level 15 types the way that gianthold has outside its flagging quests. those would really make this mod as well played as gianthold, as its those side-quests that make people live there so long. people stay in gianthold not because mod6 quests are unpopular - they are easy to get a group for any time - but because mod5 quests are, and people spend the time they might be intended to be doing mod2, 3 and 5 content in mod4 before moving on. my characters do not run any mod4 content besides the stormreaver and (if i havent done it yet, gianthold tor) once they reach level 13. the purpose of gianthold is 8-13, because mods 2, 3 and 5 fail so collossally as places to level (who runs queen or titan pre-reqs at level? even less than the people leveling in orchard quests, thats who).

-----

mod6 rant aside now, i agree the game is overly unforgiving to people who cannot equip well. i disagree with some of your positions on balance; honestly, borr, while you are source of wonderful ideas, it becomes increasingly clear to me from reading your posts that you have not run mod8 content much, nor stuck with mod7 content, and that, as you state, you are reading forums more than you are playing.

I will tell you this, right up; the people on the forum are the only ones not running mod8 content. they are the only ones not happy with it (i have some guildies working on armor on 7 different toons right now). it is at times excessively grindy, but it is way more forgiving to casual players than the shroud, because roughly 15-25% of them are getting something that is far, far better than their other armor options almost immediately. if you are not a hardcore character planning twinker like me, there are -multiple- good options on dragontouched armor, vastly increasing the amount of useful permutations. i was the one who had to get +6 to str on his armor, and who has to get the chattering ring bonus, et cetera.

a majority of players have the luxury of saying 'str or con or cha work on my armor, and heighten awareness, earthgrab, chattering, or airguard would all be great on tier 3 ..', and keeping whichever they get and like.

your paladin and s/b rants also perturb me, because its clear you are simply not playing the same game i am. I play a s/b, ac-based paladin. without the chattering ac, he can self-buff to 66 and raid-buffs to 72/73. his dps is not outrageous, but it is clearly effective, and i have heightened 4 on my khopesh (ie no blast). while there are times i wish i had twf as an option - and it would be a lovely option - my build is as effective in doing what it does as many of the monk-halfling-ranger mixes with which I group, and i frankly tank far better than a vast majority of them. my intimidate is in the low 50s and will be in the high 50s as soon as the shroud reopens, or in the mid-50s with me picking up imp-crit piercing. zeal and divine might really made my dps - their net increase is something to the tune of 20-25% of my old dps - and zeal/fighter haste boost make me spit out vorpals or banishes or con damage very, very quickly as well. haste 25 + hasteboost 15 + zeal 10 is a 50% attack speed bonus, enough that without imp crit piercing, i have run through the vale to a quest, gathered 30+ shavarath mobs, turned around, drank a haste pot and activated my hasteboost, and banished every one of them in the next 20 seconds. i appreciate that this is probably not quite as fast as some rangers etc could do it (especially without ic pierce!), but it is more than enough to be very effective at what I'm doing, and that is enough.

you're so excessively negative about things that were clearly problems 6, 9, 11 months ago, and are no longer really so. s/b builds are a little behind some other builds, but there are still significant advantages to them. i love all the ideas posted by you and other equally alarmist folks, because with them (passive deflection chances, passive dr, shield bashing hooks when my shield bash just incidently does 20+ damage), on top of everything else I have, would make my character into a template for a flavor of the month.

i appreciate that some changes and such have hurt your characters, or other characters (intimidate, for example), but I really think its time for you to just break down and actually experience the endgame content for a while, instead of subsisting in this alarmist world that is the forum posting; there are certainly negative and badly-chosen aspects to things, but the negativity here is almost comic, and I think it affects your viewpoint too much.

you'd think the freaking endgame was gone without the shroud, despite the fact that one of the mod7 raids is still not regularly pugged without wasting resources, that the slow-as-mollasses reacting forum community hasn't come to appreciate the amazing potential of dragontouched armor, or that so many people are honestly aggreived that they can no longer pike for 15 minutes for free tome-dropping chests in the stormreaver, a quest that is still embarassingly easy, but at least requires people to sort of watch the screen.

the groupthink here is embarrassing. it was stated, so everyone concurs its true; dt armor sucks, rainbow in the dark isn't a fast or fun lootrun anymore, the shroud is the only thing that matters, and if it doesnt have evasion it doesn't exist!

since bor linked this thread in another thread, id like to say that junts post here still sums up what I and most of the people i play with feel about end game. we like it and it *seems* most of the people who dont like the epics and even amrath elite, are th ones who dont run it often, and think that just because they cant step in and waltz through the dungeons like they do on casual/normal , that the game is broken and horribly imbalanced and cant be run by anything but the most minn/maxxed builds out there, which is very inaccurate to say the least.

Borror0
04-16-2010, 03:59 AM
we like it and it *seems* most of the people who dont like the epics and even amrath elite, are th ones who dont run it often, and think that just because they cant step in and waltz through the dungeons like they do on casual/normal
Most of the people who dislike the current end game content dislike it because it's unfun, not because it's too challenging. Like Aspenor said in his Epic thread, a sorcerer can run on 3-4 spells. How is that fun? Most character that focus on AC can't obtain meaningful Armor Class. again, how is that fun? If challenge was an issue, we'd be complaining about challenge - believe me. It's not that anything is too tough, it's that we're not having fun when the complete it.

And, yes, it makes sense that those who complain that a quest is unfun play it less than those who complain: they don't like it, so obviously they will avoid playing it they can, or play it begrudgingly if they must. It's not rocket surgery.

petegunn
04-16-2010, 04:55 AM
I hear where you are coming from with reference to the fun factor of Gwylans stand Borro, may I also add in Stormcleave Von three and tempest spine which are personal favourites of mine. Somewhere along the line the quest designers lost their way.

Imagine the concept of a high level Gwylans stand style raid (an outside area with mobs, some red named and chests, dotted with instanced areas to plunder) as opposed to porting from one room to the next drudgery aka the shroud and tod. The run out to the hound and vod raid comes close but then you're bogged down with the one dimensional aspect of the raids themselves.

arrrcher
04-30-2010, 10:25 PM
I hear where you are coming from with reference to the fun factor of Gwylans stand Borro, may I also add in Stormcleave Von three and tempest spine which are personal favourites of mine. Somewhere along the line the quest designers lost their way.

Imagine the concept of a high level Gwylans stand style raid (an outside area with mobs, some red named and chests, dotted with instanced areas to plunder) as opposed to porting from one room to the next drudgery aka the shroud and tod. The run out to the hound and vod raid comes close but then you're bogged down with the one dimensional aspect of the raids themselves.

after 3 extensions, my sub runs out in 2 days. it wil not be renewed (until next fall!). but damn, where was I when Borro of the wiki (lorblessem!) posted this because:

hell ya!

except, I cant event stomach running a new toon through Gwylans. despite my love for it.

and SC and Tempest. they are are golden. RIP.

what happened? buh by.