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Tolero
12-03-2008, 03:13 PM
The Shroud raid has been temporarily closed due to widespread griefing of players by other players using a game exploit, and it has become broad, impacting too many users’ game play. The issue will be fixed and the quest will be reopened in the next game patch.

vtecfiend99
12-03-2008, 03:14 PM
holy carp:eek:

Pallol_One-Eye
12-03-2008, 03:15 PM
The Shroud raid has been temporarily closed due to widespread griefing of players by other players using a game exploit. Disciplinary action has proved ineffective in curbing the griefing using this exploit, and it has become broad, impacting too many users’ game play. The quest will be reopened in the next game patch.

Lucky for us this is all contained in your newest puzzle, otherwise DDO would be a virtual ghost town :eek:

HeavenlyCloud
12-03-2008, 03:16 PM
:( Too bad you have to shut down the shroud, but good thing you are fixing the shroud too!

Lorichie
12-03-2008, 03:16 PM
ruh roh
R

Healsavant
12-03-2008, 03:18 PM
UMMMM whats that?

The_Phenx
12-03-2008, 03:18 PM
Wonder what the issue is, I've never heard any griefing, but then again I don't exploit.

Gonna make a LOT of people vacate the game I would imagine, fortunately the next patch is next week.

Wade
12-03-2008, 03:18 PM
when`s the next Game Patch?

Stamp3de
12-03-2008, 03:19 PM
Woah, didn't see that one coming D8

faldordadink
12-03-2008, 03:20 PM
well on the bright side, all my toons will be off timer :)

Korvek
12-03-2008, 03:20 PM
Good thing you're fixing it somewhat promptly.

Though out of curiosity, what day is the next patch scheduled for?

Tolero
12-03-2008, 03:20 PM
when`s the next Game Patch?

Very soon. Next week as long as everything keeps going as smoothly as it has.

Solmage
12-03-2008, 03:20 PM
Thank you for stopping the exploiting, too bad the people running it legit can't continue to do so (Glad I got a run in late last night). As an alternative, re-open it and simply remove every single piece of raid loot and greensteel from any character who uses the exploit as a disciplinary action? THAT should stop the exploiting death on it's tracks. :)

maddmatt70
12-03-2008, 03:20 PM
Wow.. I can't believe it. I heard some mention of an exploit the other day, but my regular shroud group and I have no intention of doing or using any exploit. Our shroud speeds is a fixture for alot of our week. Without the shroud - ddo becomes less appealing. I checked out the new stuff, but the grind there (unlike the shroud) isn't worth it in my opinion (alot of my friends share the same opinion) and nearly all my characters have the vod/hound gear (just one new characters doesn't) which is also true of alot of my friends) so what are we/I supposed to do. I guess it will be only down for 5 days or so and then back up, but in the meantime pretty weaksauce. I also just leveled up 2 characters in the past month and don't want to level up another for awhile.

Zenako
12-03-2008, 03:20 PM
Well I guess that really answers the questions that some had posed about various activities in the shroud and how the Devs viewed them!

Too bad those responsible for the griefing could not be singled out...

vtecfiend99
12-03-2008, 03:20 PM
so i dont get myself banned, needless to say here guys the bug was something you could do TO OTHERS while doing it for yourself that pretty much made everyone miss out on their completion.

Pallol_One-Eye
12-03-2008, 03:21 PM
New puzzle was up then down in blazing speed. I can only imagine this is all in jest. If the Shroud were closed for even a week, Festivult patch coming next Tuesday/Wednesday, people would totally flip out.

Aesop
12-03-2008, 03:21 PM
hmmm... I'm not thrilled by this

I dunno what the exploit was but fix it quick

I have crafting to do and I have a lot of Larges to get

Aesop

Grimdiegn
12-03-2008, 03:22 PM
I don't run the shroud much but I'm glad you are doing something about whatever it is people were complaining about. ;)

Pallol_One-Eye
12-03-2008, 03:24 PM
Since this appears to be sincere and I am bored out of my tree with the only thing keeping me here is grinding larges, I may finally have to look elsewhere for my entertainment dollar.

It is a shame that others, especially the ******s of the world, manage to get us the dry hump and ruin everyone's entertainment:mad:

ToyVIP
12-03-2008, 03:24 PM
dammit, my caster is off timer for her 20th tomorrow.... now i gotta wait

*goes and sits in the corner and sulks*

BattleCircle
12-03-2008, 03:24 PM
DAMN

guess I will see you all next week,,,, but if the exploit was the rumor of death pact, why didn't you all just disable the damn spell?

vtecfiend99
12-03-2008, 03:25 PM
Well I guess that really answers the questions that some had posed about various activities in the shroud and how the Devs viewed them!

Too bad those responsible for the griefing could not be singled out...

the problem here is that it is kinda easy to do the first half of what you need to do on accident. Something seemingly innocent could be bent, lol.

cdbd3rd
12-03-2008, 03:27 PM
"Shaka, when the walls fell"

:(

Zenako
12-03-2008, 03:27 PM
the problem here is that it is kinda easy to do the first half of what you need to do on accident. Something seemingly innocent could be bent, lol.

But while part 1 of the issue could be an accident, part 2 was very obviously an exploit from what I understand. If part 2 was not undertaken not sure any "griefing" would have been occuring....

Lorichie
12-03-2008, 03:27 PM
Since this appears to be sincere and I am bored out of my tree with the only thing keeping me here is grinding larges, I may finally have to look elsewhere for my entertainment dollar.

It is a shame that others, especially the ******s of the world, manage to get us the dry hump and ruin everyone's entertainment:mad:

Sadly that's how it always is, isnt it? Whats truly a shame will be the ones that blame everyone else but the folks that were responsible.

Anyway, do what ya need to do and get her going again when you can, and for those who grumble, place the blame where and on who it belongs.

Fwiw,
R

Jondallar
12-03-2008, 03:27 PM
Well I'm not surprised. But no reason to log into the game now for a week atleast...so too bad i just re-upped my subscription. I hope the moderaters/gm's perma banned the griefers, otherwise it is stupid to close it down, because now they are griefing the entire DDO paying customer base since noone can enjoy the last worthwhile quest.

wamjratl1
12-03-2008, 03:27 PM
Fudge. I really need to Shroud tonight and over the weekend. Was hoping to get at least 3 runs in this wk...

I will never get my rapier...

Mockduck
12-03-2008, 03:30 PM
Glad to see this happen. I've not run the Shroud since the exploit became pretty common simply because I didn't want to justify not exploiting the quest. I did the same thing over the summer during the last round of issues with this raid. Given the choice between bad blood, long unwinnable arguments and simply not running the quest, I chose not running the quest.

That said, I do love the Shroud raid and will be glad to run it once it's brought back up.

Amabel
12-03-2008, 03:33 PM
A massive over reaction.

So now the vast majority who play the game properly can't run it at all. It's what, a 50 minute run? If someone griefs, on to the DNP list and get on with it again.

But now all the people who only run with friends and have zero chance of being griefed can't run it at all? For heaven's sake - NOT an appropriate response.

Mirak
12-03-2008, 03:33 PM
I need to craft tonight. Woe is me...

Vengenance
12-03-2008, 03:33 PM
The Shroud raid has been temporarily closed due to widespread griefing of players by other players using a game exploit. Disciplinary action has proved ineffective in curbing the griefing using this exploit, and it has become broad, impacting too many users’ game play. The quest will be reopened in the next game patch.

Ridiculous! Wow, instead of going after the players involved they're shutting down the best raid in the game. This is a total absurd solution, why not just temporarily remove the spell that allows this exploit and call it done.

Spisey
12-03-2008, 03:34 PM
Parties inside and waiting to tele someone whose getting scrolls. You really need to effen fix this effen stuff in advance. Between this effen ***** and Prey on the Hunter you are really starting to effen **** me off.

Korvek
12-03-2008, 03:34 PM
I hope the moderaters/gm's perma banned the griefers

While I agree with the sentiment, the difficulty I see in that regard is that there are likely quite a few people that did take advantage of this exploit and/or griefed the rest of the group by doing so, and it would be rather difficult to get all of them.

Whippy
12-03-2008, 03:35 PM
Ack.. what? I run shroud all the time for guild and in pugs, and I have never once seen any griefing... not sure what some people are doing but this sucks bigtime... there must be something else that can be done as apposed to closing down a whole quest for the 99% of people who are honest and play to have fun... lame decision in my opinion.

As for the griefers... you know they are doing it, why are they not banned? I mean if they are banned there shouldn't be an issue right? And we should all be able to play again. Very mad now.

/rant off.

difasja
12-03-2008, 03:35 PM
I"m shocked, I was planning to do many shroud runs in the next few days. Also I may be dense but I don't understand what was going on, I've never been in a group that didn't play it completly straight. Can anyone tell me what "griefing" is?

Korvek
12-03-2008, 03:35 PM
Ridiculous! Wow, instead of going after the players involved they're shutting down the best raid in the game. This is a total absurd solution, why not just temporarily remove the spell that allows this exploit and call it done.

Well, there's no guarantee that that's the sole issue with the raid. There could be something else going on that we aren't informed of.

Turial
12-03-2008, 03:35 PM
A sad state of affairs. My hat is off to Turbine for doing something about it but still a sad state of affairs no matter how you look at it.

~Branis
12-03-2008, 03:36 PM
You are punishing paying players for transgressions of others unjustly.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-03-2008, 03:37 PM
"shaka, When The Walls Fell"

:(

Rotfl!

Icharius
12-03-2008, 03:38 PM
Doesn't make sense to me, the exploit began after certain spell was added to the game and the shroud was running fine until then.

The wisest things to do was to remove the spell rather than close this quest that is, in Dev's time, more work from them, now unaccesible to players.

Hope this suggestion can make it to the ears of someone, Please remove the spell open the srhoud.

Korvek
12-03-2008, 03:38 PM
So now the vast majority who play the game properly can't run it at all. It's what, a 50 minute run? If someone griefs, on to the DNP list and get on with it again.

Unless I'm mistaken, the entire party could go along with it, which is still a severe problem that needs to be addressed, while not technically griefing.

Also, the "vast majority" is something that's probably unknown to both of us. From what I've heard about it, the people that may take advantage of this are numerous.

Amabel
12-03-2008, 03:39 PM
The wisest things to do was to remove the spell rather than close this quest

/signed

Most sensible suggestion I've heard for a while. We're short of content, not spells. Removing our favourite hampster wheel, even for a short time, is a bad idea.

Rowanheal
12-03-2008, 03:39 PM
I am happy this is being taken care of...

I don't necessarily love the way it is being taken care of, but its needed so a big thank you :)

See ya in Stormreach,

-R

Spisey
12-03-2008, 03:40 PM
This game is really turning to **** the last couple months. When is Turbine going to stop pushing unrealistic timetables if they cannot test their new content and spells correctly. What the hell are you doing on Mournlands? Just playing the game and ignoring known issues? I doubt that many of these issues were not discussed prior to release and just ignored till they can "get around to fixing" them. I highly doubt they have these effen issues in LOtR....

MacFionn
12-03-2008, 03:40 PM
"Shaka, when the walls fell"

:(

10 points for the great Star Trek reference!

Sokath, his eyes uncovered.

Beherit_Baphomar
12-03-2008, 03:41 PM
I dont care that others are getting ten large scales a day. I could care less.

I dont care if someone griefs the run, I'll restart and /squelch.

What I do care about is having absolutely nothing to do in this game until the Shroud is reopened.

Ok, maybe a lil overly dramatic, but I really dont run anything else these days.

Let the exploiters exploit, ban them when you find them and leave the rest of us out of it.

alchilito
12-03-2008, 03:42 PM
Please just remove the spell and leave the quest.

Amabel
12-03-2008, 03:42 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, the entire party could go along with it, which is still a severe problem that needs to be addressed, while not technically griefing.

Also, the "vast majority" is something that's probably unknown to both of us. From what I've heard about it, the people that may take advantage of this are numerous.

Yeah, but how does it really help. Most people have five or more of their characters Shroud ready now anyway and always have someone free for a run.

Was it a cheesy exploit that needed fixing? Yes. Did it justify punishing the players not exploiting because it wildly unbalanced the game? No.

Thelmallen
12-03-2008, 03:44 PM
All I can say is 'wow'. I had no idea that there even was an exploit. I was around when the first exploit was being used but since that was fixed, I haven't seen anyone doing anything other than running the quest straight and true.

Well, get it fixed. Like others, I'm bummed, too, but hopefully it will be less than a week and we'll have it fixed.

To those exploiting................you suck. Go play WoW or something; keep the childishness over there and leave this game to those of us who play to have fun.:mad:

maddmatt70
12-03-2008, 03:44 PM
In return for shutting this down any chance you can make the new stuff's grind better. Double the sovereign rune (change to 2 runes at the completion of Sorjak) and other runes drop rate and remove silly qualities like improved false life when there is greater false life in the table.

Vistram
12-03-2008, 03:45 PM
Typical Turbine. If they saw a thumb tack hole in the wall they'd fix it with a sledgehammer.

It's funny a few players can manipulate the entire game/playerbase's enjoyment.

WTG!

smatt
12-03-2008, 03:46 PM
Interesting, and while I've not played much over the last 3 weeks or so....... The times I've run the Shroud, none of the gorups I've been in have even considered or talked much about the *******. It was discussed early on when Mod 8 ame out and roundly tossed as being a stupid action. I cant' see how there could be that many that would be using it too grief others, it seems those people that were using it to grief naems would passed around very quikly.


Sad..... :(

SableShadow
12-03-2008, 03:46 PM
Shutting down the quest that even the tired and bored will keep their accounts open to run...if there's a rush patch, sure, and we'll see it load tomorrow, but if the patch is going to drop next week or "soon"....

WeaselKing
12-03-2008, 03:46 PM
Very soon. Next week as long as everything keeps going as smoothly as it has.

Next week is not very soon. The suggestion that it might take longer is even worse.

Gordo
12-03-2008, 03:46 PM
Nothing like punishing the whole for the errors of the few.

This is pure nonsense. When is the next patch? Why should we all have to wait? Fix it now but don't ruin it for my friends and I who have never used an exploit.

Your handling of this is incorrect.

Guildmaster_Kadish
12-03-2008, 03:47 PM
All I can say about this is that it's ridiculous.

Absolutely ridiculous. A foolish move on Turbine's part--the Shroud is practically the only quest in the game worth running, and they take it away just like that? By all means, go ahead and ban everybody you see performing an exploit (permanently if its a nasty one), but honestly....


The Shroud raid has been temporarily closed due to widespread griefing of players by other players.

To be quite frank, Turbine, you are the worst griefer here. Closing the Shroud is a drastic overreaction that will cause FAR more damage than a couple of in-game griefers.

JoeyJoJoJr
12-03-2008, 03:48 PM
Keep the shroud, remove the spell please.

Do'Urden
12-03-2008, 03:49 PM
Horrible decision to punish the entire player base for the actions of a few. I haven't seen the exploit used in a single run I've been in and I PUG it often with 8 level 16 alts who still need Shroud gear. It's easy to beat the damn quest straight up for Pete's sake.

I mean come on really...you just shut the most meaningful quest in the game (in terms of end game loot). You just turned boredom and angst over Mod 8 into something more...meaningful. Sure it's temporary but this is an absolutely ridiculous reaction to the actions of a few.

Comfortably
12-03-2008, 03:51 PM
Glad I got my clerics 20th run in last night :D

Time to find some other quest to do...((sigh))...
BUT not right to punish EVERYONE for a few bad groups cheatin...lol its a sad day in Stormreach when you have to cheat in the shroud to get a completion...very very sad...

Tolero
12-03-2008, 03:51 PM
We don't like it any more than you all do. We MUCH prefer to punish offenders. However, there comes a point where when the bans aren't doing anything to curb it, and the GMs are trying to sift through and find users in need of help, then it's just a bit beyond unacceptable. We had two choices. Take the ENTIRE game down to take away an ability, or cut off the area where the ability is being used until we can get the correction in. Neither is pleasant or desirable.

Riggs
12-03-2008, 03:52 PM
Hmm this sounds awfully familiar.

Something invovling force fields in a raid, and deaths.

Maybe what really should be fixed is deathporting in raids, and force fields that dont do what they are supposed to.

And scripting.

Reaver
Titan.
Shroud now.
Prey of the hunter, problems with force fields, and walls.

That alone (if you consider the new quests to be part of the new 'raidless raid'), is 4 out of 6 raids (Tempest doesnt really count), where there have been ongoing, and long lasting problems with forcefields, and deaths.

*edit - Von 3 oh yeah as someone else posted. Marut force field.

Add in other scripting.

Deleras - countless failed quests due to a charmed undead or wraith vanishing.

Prey of the hunter - charm something, failed quest as the walls dont fall.

Anything with scorpions. (Xorn, earht elementals, and Bulettes could travel underground, there is absolutely no reason why scorpions can run through solid rock as fast as on level ground). Scorpions bug out all the time still - but at least they were removed from Ritual.

Wraiths and teleporting monsters vanish into walls. Which makes them impossible to hit and any quest where you have named ones can fail the quest (House P Vol anyone?)

Monsters like the Demon Queen that can become invulnerable at certain points ahve caused many problems.

I am sure I could think of other ones if I went through all the quests, but the issue isnt a few people exploiting.

It is that anything where players or monsters can bypass terrain physics = many bugs and failed quests.
Any monster that can go out of contact with the normal physics can often bug out and mess things up.
Any raid features involving deathporting to a specific spot, force fields that go up or down, there are bugs.

It is a problem with scripting, and it keeps coming up every time there are new quests, and is a problem in many old quests. Going back after 6 months and fixing them one by one is nice and all.

But really the coding for these behaviors really ought to be looked at pretty hard and fixed. Because it is not a one-off occurrence, or a rare occurrence, it is a regular occurrence, and has been since day 1.

So maybe instead of shutting down raids for a week at a time (pretty much every raid has been now), maybe spend those weeks taking a really hard look at the coding, BEFORE releasing new raids and contend that has vanishing monsters, force fields, deathporting etc.

It cannot do anything but help for the future.

Alexander_Illusioni
12-03-2008, 03:52 PM
a Massive Over Reaction.

So Now The Vast Majority Who Play The Game Properly Can't Run It At All. It's What, A 50 Minute Run? If Someone Griefs, On To The Dnp List And Get On With It Again.

But Now All The People Who Only Run With Friends And Have Zero Chance Of Being Griefed Can't Run It At All? For Heaven's Sake - Not An Appropriate Response.


Qft

WeaselKing
12-03-2008, 03:52 PM
Keep the shroud, remove the spell please.

This would have been a MUCH better approach. Even if it required a reboot or some other mx window.

Vengenance
12-03-2008, 03:53 PM
To be quite frank, Turbine, you are the worst griefer here.

/signed

Taojeff
12-03-2008, 03:53 PM
Sorry folks, gotta be fixed. I know everyone is upset, but its a large exploit. I did not know alot of people were doing it though. I had done shroud quite a few times since the "spell" was released. It only came up once, and there was alot of people complaining when someone suggested it, so it did not go down. So in maybe 10 raids I did not see anyone do this.

More than likely its a select group of few that cheat to get better at the game. Woe for the rest of us, we have to pay the price. Don't blame turbine though.

SableShadow
12-03-2008, 03:54 PM
Very soon. Next week as long as everything keeps going as smoothly as it has.

I hope you reconsider this timeline.

This is your long-term playerbase's single most popular quest...there are a significant number of players who maintain their accounts to run Shroud for ingredients while waiting for new content...if the problem is urgent enough to shut down, then it's urgent enough to get a temporary fix in tomorrow.

darksol23
12-03-2008, 03:55 PM
Also shocked... This seems like a massive overreaction. The shroud is basically the only quest worth running repetitivly. If the issue is caused by a certain spell like some here have indicated, DISABLE THE SPELL! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


That's right... Five :mad: faces! One for each of my characters that just went on forced retirement for a week.

Guildmaster_Kadish
12-03-2008, 03:55 PM
We had two choices. Take the ENTIRE game down to take away an ability, or cut off the area where the ability is being used until we can get the correction in. Neither is pleasant or desirable.

I don't know about everyone else... but taking the game down for a couple of hours to fix the spell (or the quest) sounds far preferable to taking the game's entire worthwhile end-game content down for a week.

Riggs
12-03-2008, 03:56 PM
Oh and yeah, removing the spell that was more a novelty than anything else (any non-cleric character has ways to raise people by now, often several), would have been a far more nice way of handling this.

Shutting down the main quest most people run now for at least a week....well far, far less people would be unhappy not getting the new spell that they lived without for most of the last 3 years than shutting down the main quest in the game.

The vast majority of players did not use this. Anyone who even asked questions about it in pugs was told (by our guild anyway) "Its an exploit, so dont even mem the spell because it could get you banned, and we will be done in 10 minutes anyway so dont do it".

If people were griefing other players this way...well then half the server is going to stop playing with them soon. but now everyone on the server is being punished to stop a few from 'getting too many ingredients!'...because apparently one is far more important than the enjoyment of the many.

Utilitarianism anyone?

cjschreiner
12-03-2008, 03:56 PM
The shroud is exploited for a little while, they close it. But LotD was being exploited much longer and they never shut that down. Ohhhh and the reaver was being exploited and they didn't close that. Just fix it fast and don't ruin the game for us who want to play it.

Aarwin
12-03-2008, 03:56 PM
Hmmmm nice may loose some more players... Good solution Turbine, Why not take the spell away so the rest of us can run the raid legit like some have been.

Vengenance
12-03-2008, 03:56 PM
We don't like it any more than you all do. We MUCH prefer to punish offenders. However, there comes a point where when the bans aren't doing anything to curb it, and the GMs are trying to sift through and find users in need of help, then it's just a bit beyond unacceptable. We had two choices. Take the ENTIRE game down to take away an ability, or cut off the area where the ability is being used until we can get the correction in. Neither is pleasant or desirable.

Weak, better to take the game down, it'd be more palatable.

Calozz78
12-03-2008, 03:57 PM
Remove the spell and open the raid ASAP!

Alexander_Illusioni
12-03-2008, 03:57 PM
We don't like it any more than you all do. We MUCH prefer to punish offenders. However, there comes a point where when the bans aren't doing anything to curb it, and the GMs are trying to sift through and find users in need of help, then it's just a bit beyond unacceptable. We had two choices. Take the ENTIRE game down to take away an ability, or cut off the area where the ability is being used until we can get the correction in. Neither is pleasant or desirable.

Taking the entire game down to patch the spell removal would be a much better option. Game down 4 to 5 hours, beats no shroud for a week, hands down! This reeks of being a bit lazy to remove the spell, and while that is a negative comment, and I try to be positive most of the time concerning development, I can see it no other way. Please reconsider this, and take the game down to patch a spell removal.

Aesop
12-03-2008, 03:57 PM
i Hope You Reconsider This Timeline.

This Is Your Long-term Playerbase's Single Most Popular Quest...there Are A Significant Number Of Players Who Maintain Their Accounts To Run Shroud For Ingredients While Waiting For New Content...if The Problem Is Urgent Enough To Shut Down, Then It's Urgent Enough To Get A Temporary Fix In Tomorrow.

/agreed

SableShadow
12-03-2008, 04:00 PM
We don't like it any more than you all do. We MUCH prefer to punish offenders. However, there comes a point where when the bans aren't doing anything to curb it, and the GMs are trying to sift through and find users in need of help, then it's just a bit beyond unacceptable. We had two choices. Take the ENTIRE game down to take away an ability, or cut off the area where the ability is being used until we can get the correction in. Neither is pleasant or desirable.


No problem. Slap in a hotfix tomorrow and put it back up, no worries. Most of the complaints are directed at the "we'll get it next week" part. :)

xman26
12-03-2008, 04:00 PM
We don't like it any more than you all do. We MUCH prefer to punish offenders. However, there comes a point where when the bans aren't doing anything to curb it, and the GMs are trying to sift through and find users in need of help, then it's just a bit beyond unacceptable. We had two choices. Take the ENTIRE game down to take away an ability, or cut off the area where the ability is being used until we can get the correction in. Neither is pleasant or desirable.

sounds more to me like you are ****ed off that people found a much more effeinct way to loot for ingros. This wouldn't be an issue if 1. you ifxed issues without question when they arose to players who have legit gripes. The game has logs, GO F*****ING read teh things. Yes I'm still ****ed about the Min2 Necklace that didn't happen because the Game F***ED up and have been told by you cash stealing perps and game GM to F*** myself I'm screwed. The second problem you have is constantly nerfing old content when you release new or if to many people complain "How are people zerging to 16 in a week?" either tell them to figure itout for themselves or fly a kite, either way, leave things alone.

Garth_of_Sarlona
12-03-2008, 04:00 PM
You did the right thing Tolero. I just wish you had done the same thing for people who were exploiting the Abbot when it first came out, and then bragging about the loot they exploited, but then I suppose the difference here was that it was impacting on other players and not just about ill-gotten loot.

Garth

kingfisher
12-03-2008, 04:02 PM
can you fix the lag in there while you are under the hood?

xman26
12-03-2008, 04:03 PM
Taking the entire game down to patch the spell removal would be a much better option. Game down 4 to 5 hours, beats no shroud for a week, hands down! This reeks of being a bit lazy to remove the spell, and while that is a negative comment, and I try to be positive most of the time concerning development, I can see it no other way. Please reconsider this, and take the game down to patch a spell removal.


FYI, I dont see it as an exploit, its an easier way to loot ingros without completion. BIG FAT F***ING DEAL TURBINE! If you would improve the drop tables on certain ingros, you wouldn't have this damn problem to begin with.

Tarackian
12-03-2008, 04:05 PM
It was brought up in one of my groups, the party leader squashed it and we moved forward...just takes leadership......



Wonder what the issue is, I've never heard any griefing, but then again I don't exploit.

Gonna make a LOT of people vacate the game I would imagine, fortunately the next patch is next week.

darksol23
12-03-2008, 04:05 PM
Take the ENTIRE game down to take away an ability, or cut off the area where the ability is being used until we can get the correction in.

Wholeheartedly take the whole game down for 3-5 hours and remove the ability! I don't care what ability it is, take my barbs Crit Rage or take my Sorcs Wall of Fire, I'll deal. But don't take away the only quest worth playing.

Dexxaan
12-03-2008, 04:07 PM
Well I'm not surprised. But no reason to log into the game now for a week atleast...so too bad i just re-upped my subscription. I hope the moderaters/gm's perma banned the griefers, otherwise it is stupid to close it down, because now they are griefing the entire DDO paying customer base since noone can enjoy the last worthwhile quest.

/Agreed.


Doesn't make sense to me, the exploit began after certain spell was added to the game and the shroud was running fine until then.

The wisest things to do was to remove the spell rather than close this quest that is, in Dev's time, more work from them, now unaccesible to players.

Hope this suggestion can make it to the ears of someone, Please remove the spell open the srhoud.

Yep.


/signed

Most sensible suggestion I've heard for a while. We're short of content, not spells. Removing our favourite hampster wheel, even for a short time, is a bad idea.

Hamster wheel.... LOL :D


In return for shutting this down any chance you can make the new stuff's grind better. Double the sovereign rune (change to 2 runes at the completion of Sorjak) and other runes drop rate and remove silly qualities like improved false life when there is greater false life in the table.

/signed. This Hamster wants a tidbit to munch on while you clean my cage.


Sorry folks, gotta be fixed. I know everyone is upset, but its a large exploit. I did not know alot of people were doing it though. I had done shroud quite a few times since the "spell" was released. It only came up once, and there was alot of people complaining when someone suggested it, so it did not go down. So in maybe 10 raids I did not see anyone do this.

More than likely its a select group of few that cheat to get better at the game. Woe for the rest of us, we have to pay the price. Don't blame turbine though.



Yada yada yada.... Fanboi.

Tolero
12-03-2008, 04:08 PM
Taking the game down is not a 'simple' solution. Any time you make a change to the game or bring the worlds down, there is great risk associated with that (take the lag issues we've had to try and hunt on from a simple restart once). Locking one quest presents the least risk to the game - even though it's not any fun to do so because then it means one less quest :(

Grimgore
12-03-2008, 04:08 PM
"Shaka, when the walls fell"

:(


Wow, a Next Gen Reference! Since the exploit is no longer, can someone PM me what the hell it was so I don't have to wonder?

Thanks in advance!

-Grim

Tolero
12-03-2008, 04:10 PM
can you fix the lag in there while you are under the hood?

Actually as I was working on release notes, I did see two different notes about performance improvements.

xman26
12-03-2008, 04:10 PM
You did the right thing Tolero. I just wish you had done the same thing for people who were exploiting the Abbot when it first came out, and then bragging about the loot they exploited, but then I suppose the difference here was that it was impacting on other players and not just about ill-gotten loot.

Garth

Yes because looting is such a horrible thing. So bad in fact we should have to waste half our lives trying to get 1 last L scale or support plat farmers(which turbine still has done very little about) by buying it on the AH. Excellent moves both by the way. For us casual gamers, those of us who aren't playing 24/7/365 but maybe 6 hours at a time 2-3 times a week, this is a real knock in the f***ing nuts as we are constantly getting screwed over.

liamfrancais
12-03-2008, 04:12 PM
Wow this is not good and quite silly. I can see how if it caused others not to finish the raid there would be much grief and I believe I know the exploit that is the problem and it is cheese but come on shut down the raid because oh I don't know 5% of players maybe were using it.

Hey I have an idea how about we all run the the Abbott tonight and flood the GM's about how the Asteroids are exploiting by coming in too fast and invisible, the lag makes the floor puzzle very hard because of communication problems and the Abbott is spamming inferno constantly. Oh wait we have done that and yet no fix hmmmmm. Well good thing we can't spin at the shrines anymore!

Whippy
12-03-2008, 04:12 PM
tolero u say banning the folks who are doing it has done little to curb the problem? how is that possible? sure as hell word gets out that people have been banned for doing it and everyone will stop... surely if those guilty are gone there shouldn't be an issue... something doesn't quite add up.

Guildmaster_Kadish
12-03-2008, 04:13 PM
Locking one quest presents the least risk to the game - even though it's not any fun to do so because then it means one less quest :(

One less quest... out of... [wait for it] ...one quest worth running!

You bet it's not any fun. Which is something, for a game, which presents a far larger problem than any potential consequences of removing one spell or changing one usable object to have a different trigger.


Taking the game down is not a 'simple' solution.

The best solutions often aren't... that doesn't mean you shouldn't use them over an inferior compromise.

Beherit_Baphomar
12-03-2008, 04:13 PM
Taking the game down is not a 'simple' solution. Any time you make a change to the game or bring the worlds down, there is great risk associated with that (take the lag issues we've had to try and hunt on from a simple restart once). Locking one quest presents the least risk to the game - even though it's not any fun to do so because then it means one less quest :(

One less quest? Thats a third of the end game content T.

Like I said, let them exploit, ban them when ya catch them and leave the rest of us to play as we do.



FYI, I dont see it as an exploit, its an easier way to loot ingros without completion. BIG FAT F***ING DEAL TURBINE! If you would improve the drop tables on certain ingros, you wouldn't have this damn problem to begin with.

No one cares if you see it as an exploit, your opinion means nothing. This is Turbines game and they say its an exploit, end of discussion. You obviously ran the Shroud using this method, so YOU'RE part of the problem here, in fact not part you ARE the problem.

The_Phenx
12-03-2008, 04:15 PM
Yes because looting is such a horrible thing. So bad in fact we should have to waste half our lives trying to get 1 last L scale or support plat farmers(which turbine still has done very little about) by buying it on the AH. Excellent moves both by the way. For us casual gamers, those of us who aren't playing 24/7/365 but maybe 6 hours at a time 2-3 times a week, this is a real knock in the f***ing nuts as we are constantly getting screwed over.

So then its ok for the casual gamer to exploit the game, becaue you don't have the time to acquire loot the normal way?

Not sure what your saying here man but it doesn't come across very well.

Berryman
12-03-2008, 04:15 PM
can you fix the lag in there while you are under the hood?

I second this! Shroud is awful laggy!

darksol23
12-03-2008, 04:15 PM
One less quest... out of... [wait for it] ...one quest worth running!

You bet it's not any fun. Which is something, for a game, which presents a far larger problem than any potential consequences of removing one spell or changing one usable object to have a different trigger.



The best solutions usually aren't... that doesn't mean you shouldn't use them over an inferior compromise.

Guildmaster Kadish FTW

cdbd3rd
12-03-2008, 04:16 PM
Yada yada yada.... Fanboi.


"Kiteo, his eyes closed"

:rolleyes:

SableShadow
12-03-2008, 04:16 PM
Taking the game down is not a 'simple' solution. Any time you make a change to the game or bring the worlds down, there is great risk associated with that (take the lag issues we've had to try and hunt on from a simple restart once). Locking one quest presents the least risk to the game - even though it's not any fun to do so because then it means one less quest :(

Got it. The game doesn't support hotfixes, just full code deployments with associate server reboots. :(

Still...Turbine's probably better off taking an outage than waiting for the regular maintenance for this one.

HumanJHawkins
12-03-2008, 04:16 PM
Curious wording... The Shroud is closed, not because of exploiting. But because Turbine couldn't get non-exploiters to stop griefing the exploiters?

I like the explanation though. It makes sense. If people exploit, it maybe makes them a little stronger and more likely to succeed. But it doesn't have much affect on other players. But if people grief others, it ties up GMs and makes it impossible for other players to get help with real issues.

Docta_PoPo
12-03-2008, 04:17 PM
*Single Tear*

Hmm to bash or not to bash

DragonWatch
12-03-2008, 04:17 PM
We don't like it any more than you all do. We MUCH prefer to punish offenders. However, there comes a point where when the bans aren't doing anything to curb it, and the GMs are trying to sift through and find users in need of help, then it's just a bit beyond unacceptable. We had two choices. Take the ENTIRE game down to take away an ability, or cut off the area where the ability is being used until we can get the correction in. Neither is pleasant or desirable.

Being someone from ghallada who is very aware of an individual who regualy uses exploits and bugs to do raiding even when caught by the devs he was banned two days latter he was back and at it again. With at least three last warnings since then it is clear there is a strong follow through problem

Vengenance
12-03-2008, 04:18 PM
Taking the game down is not a 'simple' solution. Any time you make a change to the game or bring the worlds down, there is great risk associated with that (take the lag issues we've had to try and hunt on from a simple restart once). Locking one quest presents the least risk to the game - even though it's not any fun to do so because then it means one less quest :(

What about the risk of losing your player base? If this was say "The Pit," then there would be no problem. Or even a raid like DQ, or like anyone cares "The Abbott," the player base would just yawn and move on. Mod 8 was a complete flop, the only content still worth doing is Shroud. I have 9 characters all flagged for Shroud and I try to run one character each day through this raid. I'm not alone in this, listen to your player base, they are all saying the same thing, we want the raid left open. Either reopen in its current flawed configuration or bring down the game for a hot fix to remove the undesired spell. Your customers are speaking, please listen to them.

Darkwolf1071
12-03-2008, 04:19 PM
Weak sauce. Remove the spell or put a barrier around what you need to put a barrier around, I've got 5 toons on a week's retirement now. You're using tach nukes to take out moths again, just as has been done in the past. Been here since day 1, watching friends (more rapidly and rapidly as of late) decide to take their dollar elsewhere; and honestly wondering what my motivation is to re-up when my current 6-month expires.

Oh and no offense to anyone from Turbine, but I remember when Tempest Spine was taken down 'for a little while' as well. Think the little while lasted a couple months.....

The_Phenx
12-03-2008, 04:19 PM
Well good thing we can't spin at the shrines anymore!

Yes you can.. I figured out a work around :D

Not only can you spin...BUT YOU CAN DANCE!!!

Berryman
12-03-2008, 04:20 PM
So can you guys add the buy back in next week? I lost 30 majors

Tolero
12-03-2008, 04:21 PM
So can you guys add the buy back in next week? I lost 30 majors

Buy back is coming back as well for patch.

Ryavin
12-03-2008, 04:21 PM
One less quest... out of... [wait for it] ...one quest worth running!

You bet it's not any fun. Which is something, for a game, which presents a far larger problem than any potential consequences of removing one spell or changing one usable object to have a different trigger.



The best solutions usually aren't... that doesn't mean you shouldn't use them over an inferior compromise.

Gettum Naj, I could't agree with you more. Very poor decision on the part of Turbine.

Hurting everyone because of the actions of a few is not the answer. Take the game down for a few hours, remove the spell and let us run the quest.

***? I didn't even know there was an exploit.

xman26
12-03-2008, 04:22 PM
One less quest? Thats a third of the end game content T.

Like I said, let them exploit, ban them when ya catch them and leave the rest of us to play as we do.




No one cares if you see it as an exploit, your opinion means nothing. This is Turbines game and they say its an exploit, end of discussion. You obviously ran the Shroud using this method, so YOU'RE part of the problem here, in fact not part you ARE the problem.


Lets see, I play 2 nights a week, 5-6 hours each. have had to deal with Turbine constantly nerfing this game in one shape form or fashion to appease the cry babies who can't figure out how to zerg to 16 in 7 days or whatever else. They have a ingro loot table that is so far screwed its unbelievable and when someone figures out how to fast track ingros so they dont have spend 30-60-90 days of multitoon running the shroud to complete items, it becomes a problem because of cry babies. Only problem her is, these people after they complete their items will still need every 20 runs on each toon that has a wearable item to clense the thing. All this does is screw the casual player into having to gring things out even harder/longer. I've been playing this game for 2+ years now and only have 2 capped toons and no, i dont constanly reroll. I have 3 mains I play with, my first and only 28pt, and 2 32pt builds. the rest are simply there to play with.

Braegan
12-03-2008, 04:23 PM
FYI, I dont see it as an exploit, its an easier way to loot ingros without completion. BIG FAT F***ING DEAL TURBINE! If you would improve the drop tables on certain ingros, you wouldn't have this damn problem to begin with.

Dude are you out of your mind?

1) It doesn't matter if you are not seeing facts clearly, as this was most certainly an exploit and was weaksauce.

2) I don't see how not doing 10 min of work (if you call it that) and gaining two chests and end reward equals faster loot. Sure you might say you get on timer and all that but even with 3-5 characters that's alot of shroud to be had.

3) Your argument on the drop tables does not validate cheating. And FYI I run it legit anytime I am off timer, have some of the worst luck in pulls and have crafted many tier 3 and double upgrade items (some I even messed up and sit in the bank).

4) If you are complaining about grinding, perhaps MMO's aren't for you. If you want the loot you gotta run the quests.

xman26
12-03-2008, 04:25 PM
Curious wording... The Shroud is closed, not because of exploiting. But because Turbine couldn't get non-exploiters to stop griefing the exploiters?

I like the explanation though. It makes sense. If people exploit, it maybe makes them a little stronger and more likely to succeed. But it doesn't have much affect on other players. But if people grief others, it ties up GMs and makes it impossible for other players to get help with real issues.


UNnless ofcourse you really do have an issue that they dont want to bother with, then they just tell you to go f*** yourself and go away.

Gunga
12-03-2008, 04:25 PM
This is the most insipid of all exploits ever publicized in this game. It's hard to believe it's caused a stir. Ban the abusers, but what a crappy way to treat the fanbase who shroud regularly.

/not signed

Strakeln
12-03-2008, 04:25 PM
Anyway, do what ya need to do and get her going again when you can, and for those who grumble, place the blame where and on who it belongs.Turbine's QA/QC department?

There's only TWO places in the entire game where dying initiates unique event sequences: The Reaver, and the Shroud.

Notice that they did a fix for one, but not the other?

Also note the first thing people were asking when this spell was announced: "Wonder what that will do to the Reaver and the Shroud?".

C'mon, Turbine, get some better testers.

Whippy
12-03-2008, 04:26 PM
C'mon, Turbine, get some better testers.


LOL agreed.

TheMoose
12-03-2008, 04:27 PM
I'm usually the person that is defending turbine, but this one... come on...

Taking down the shroud is not cool because of a couple of idiots..

What's next? DDO doesn't have a high ROI, so shutting down the game from one day to the next...

OpallNotten
12-03-2008, 04:28 PM
Lets see, I play 2 nights a week, 5-6 hours each. have had to deal with Turbine constantly nerfing this game in one shape form or fashion to appease the cry babies who can't figure out how to zerg to 16 in 7 days or whatever else. They have a ingro loot table that is so far screwed its unbelievable and when someone figures out how to fast track ingros so they dont have spend 30-60-90 days of multitoon running the shroud to complete items, it becomes a problem because of cry babies. Only problem her is, these people after they complete their items will still need every 20 runs on each toon that has a wearable item to clense the thing. All this does is screw the casual player into having to gring things out even harder/longer. I've been playing this game for 2+ years now and only have 2 capped toons and no, i dont constanly reroll. I have 3 mains I play with, my first and only 28pt, and 2 32pt builds. the rest are simply there to play with.

So you are admitting on a public forum that you exploit?
Not only exploit, but proud of it?


Just checking.

Quanefel
12-03-2008, 04:28 PM
As angry as I am at Turbine for this, the blame lies squarely on all those FEW players who exploited this raid because of their own greed. Their greed got the rest of us punished by taking the raid away from us. To those who did this, I hope you are proud of yourselves. Great job ruining things for the rest of us who wanted NO part of your cheating.

I will keep playing but it still is not right or fair.

Beherit_Baphomar
12-03-2008, 04:29 PM
Lets see, I play 2 nights a week, 5-6 hours each. have had to deal with Turbine constantly nerfing this game in one shape form or fashion to appease the cry babies who can't figure out how to zerg to 16 in 7 days or whatever else. They have a ingro loot table that is so far screwed its unbelievable and when someone figures out how to fast track ingros so they dont have spend 30-60-90 days of multitoon running the shroud to complete items, it becomes a problem because of cry babies. Only problem her is, these people after they complete their items will still need every 20 runs on each toon that has a wearable item to clense the thing. All this does is screw the casual player into having to gring things out even harder/longer. I've been playing this game for 2+ years now and only have 2 capped toons and no, i dont constanly reroll. I have 3 mains I play with, my first and only 28pt, and 2 32pt builds. the rest are simply there to play with.

So because you play less than someone else you deserve to exploit?

You've caused this shutdown with your weaksauce tactics.

I dont really wanna hear your reasoning.

The only problem here is people exploiting and Turbine wrongly handling the situation.

Id ban ya right now bro, all those toons in yer sig.


Server: Thelanis Name: Treadwolf Guild: Storm Lords Level: 16/capped Favor: 2434
Raistlynwolf -12th lvl Wizzy, Testwolf- 15th Rog/Ftr(11/4), Caramonwolf, 8th Ftr, Bastarwolf- 7th Bard/Rog(6/1)

The_Phenx
12-03-2008, 04:30 PM
As angry as I am at Turbine for this, the blame lies squarely on all those FEW players who exploited this raid because of their own greed. Their greed got the rest of us punished by taking the raid away from us. To those who did this, I hope you are proud of yourselves. Great job ruining things for the rest of us who wanted NO part of your cheating.

I will keep playing but it still is not right or fair.

Right on target thats why in our runs exploits are NEVER allowed... not only does it cause problems it takes the fun out of the game... after all its not JUST about loot.

Vorn
12-03-2008, 04:30 PM
C'mon, Turbine, get some better testers.

Hee, hee, hee, WE are the testers...somewhere, in another dimension, or perhaps a galaxy far, far away real players enjoy a perfect, lag-free world thanks to our Q/A testing!
:eek::p:)

Nyvn
12-03-2008, 04:30 PM
... take away an ability....

/Votes for this option.


...means one less quest :(...

? One of the most popular quests.

Raegoul
12-03-2008, 04:31 PM
Umm No Idea... Huh... and I have missed something have'nt I.

Oh well beaten down by the idiots again.

I am sure they closed down the servers for Create Undead when it was an issue!?

boldarblood
12-03-2008, 04:32 PM
Yes because looting is such a horrible thing. So bad in fact we should have to waste half our lives trying to get 1 last L scale or support plat farmers(which turbine still has done very little about) by buying it on the AH. Excellent moves both by the way. For us casual gamers, those of us who aren't playing 24/7/365 but maybe 6 hours at a time 2-3 times a week, this is a real knock in the f***ing nuts as we are constantly getting screwed over.

So what you are saying is that it is ok for the casual player to cheat? If so that is pretty weak, you are one of the cause's of taking down the shroud.



Let's not blame Turbine on this, the real blame lies in the player base who are knowingly cheating. Does it suck for the legit players, yep. I hope they ban the one's that caused this.

xman26
12-03-2008, 04:32 PM
Dude are you out of your mind?

1) It doesn't matter if you are not seeing facts clearly, as this was most certainly an exploit and was weaksauce.

2) I don't see how not doing 10 min of work (if you call it that) and gaining two chests and end reward equals faster loot. Sure you might say you get on timer and all that but even with 3-5 characters that's alot of shroud to be had.

3) Your argument on the drop tables does not validate cheating. And FYI I run it legit anytime I am off timer, have some of the worst luck in pulls and have crafted many tier 3 and double upgrade items (some I even messed up and sit in the bank).

4) If you are complaining about grinding, perhaps MMO's aren't for you. If you want the loot you gotta run the quests.


Why is something an exploit because people are looting chests and no completing. Let them. Turbine has done, zip, zilch, nada to kill off the plat farmers, so let everyone do it and then there is no need for the plat farmers in the game. Otherwise, amend the AH so nothing can be posted with a buyout of more than double its base price and perma nuke IPs that are found to belong to plat farmers belonging to websites. I'm sure they could find the people who have 1000 major mana pots ot 1000 scales(pick your color) just sitting in there banks. They sure as hell dont actually need that many so what else are they doing with them?

Pwesiela
12-03-2008, 04:32 PM
Horrible decision to punish the entire player base for the actions of a few.


Don't blame the devs. Blame the people who have been doing it.

Wire_Paladin
12-03-2008, 04:33 PM
Wonder if this will impact DDO players voting on the MMORPG 2008 Readers’ Choice Awards! Favorite MMO Studio?

Of course we're such a small niche, it probably doesn't matter.

Braegan
12-03-2008, 04:38 PM
Why is something an exploit because people are looting chests and no completing. Let them. Turbine has done, zip, zilch, nada to kill off the plat farmers, so let everyone do it and then there is no need for the plat farmers in the game. Otherwise, amend the AH so nothing can be posted with a buyout of more than double its base price and perma nuke IPs that are found to belong to plat farmers belonging to websites. I'm sure they could find the people who have 1000 major mana pots ot 1000 scales(pick your color) just sitting in there banks. They sure as hell dont actually need that many so what else are they doing with them?

1) It's an exploit because it can be clearly identified among the list of exploits/banable offences.

2) Turbine has done things in the past to help get rid of plat farmers. Some methods I agree with, others I do not. But the lack of spamming tells and mail shows me they are doing something and it is better now then before.

3) Why would you put a crazy cap like that on AH pricing? You know how much something is worth? Answer: Whatever someone will pay for it. I wouldn't pay 2 cp for a paralyzing great club, but I would empty all my plat for one Wop Rapier.

Heffty_Smurf
12-03-2008, 04:38 PM
you turbin guys should all be replaced. you add a spell to the game that you dont do the research to see if it will cause an exploit. then shut down the #1 quest in the game. this is laughable. i hope you all know how to make burgers and french fries cuz this may be time for you all to think about a fallback plan. i heard that in addition to sending monkeys into space they were working on training them how to make a video game and actually check that everything works before throwing it out haphazzardly. oh and for the record mod 8 was a joke too.

Aesop
12-03-2008, 04:38 PM
Why is something an exploit because people are looting chests and no completing. Let them. Turbine has done, zip, zilch, nada to kill off the plat farmers, so let everyone do it and then there is no need for the plat farmers in the game. Otherwise, amend the AH so nothing can be posted with a buyout of more than double its base price and perma nuke IPs that are found to belong to plat farmers belonging to websites. I'm sure they could find the people who have 1000 major mana pots ot 1000 scales(pick your color) just sitting in there banks. They sure as hell dont actually need that many so what else are they doing with them?

apparently the problem is that when someone does this it breaks the quest making it unable to be completed and screwing people that wanted to complete it

you are looking at from only the persprctive of the exploiter and not the victims .

I wish we didn't have to grind so much either but I do my best not to use exploits because it screws other people

Turbine should not close down the most popular quest in the game at this time due to this. They should pull the spell.

and they have less than 24 hours to do it in as I'll be off timer then and looking to run

Aesop

xman26
12-03-2008, 04:38 PM
So you are admitting on a public forum that you exploit?
Not only exploit, but proud of it?


Just checking.

No, I haven't but know of several that do and I'm wont rat them out. I also know how they did it as I was told by one of them. Again, given my limited playing time, my time is better spent trying to lvl my other lowbie toons to cap, then wasting it for ingros on mulit runs when i could be going from 14 to 15 or 8 to 10 over teh 2 night i play. I do very little crafting as I have very little time to spend loot farming for ingros if I wish to cap out 2 more toons before the next big mod. and tehn its back to lvling again up to the next cap. the nice thing about being a very casual player is, you can almost continuosly be earning XP and lvling between mods.

EazyWeazy
12-03-2008, 04:39 PM
THE most popular quest.

Fixed that for you. ;)

boldarblood
12-03-2008, 04:40 PM
Why is something an exploit because people are looting chests and no completing. Let them. Turbine has done, zip, zilch, nada to kill off the plat farmers, so let everyone do it and then there is no need for the plat farmers in the game. Otherwise, amend the AH so nothing can be posted with a buyout of more than double its base price and perma nuke IPs that are found to belong to plat farmers belonging to websites. I'm sure they could find the people who have 1000 major mana pots ot 1000 scales(pick your color) just sitting in there banks. They sure as hell dont actually need that many so what else are they doing with them?

The amount of plat farmers I have heard from in last few months has been significantly less than before. I used to get 3-5 tells per hour about plat famers. I have had 1-2 in the last week total. So they have done a good job.

Your way off base on the AH, there would be zero incentive to put anything of value on the AH with the change you want. It would be stupid to make that change to the AH. You want something, earn it.

Also banning of IP address's is not always the best way to resolve things. Plus it is to easy to switch your ip address on a moment's notice, especially since a lot of ISP's use dynamic ip address.

Guildmaster_Kadish
12-03-2008, 04:41 PM
Don't blame the devs. Blame the people who have been doing it.

Why not blame everybody? There's plenty to go around!

In all seriousness, I'm usually very sympathetic to Turbine and very civil in my posts, and I do believe that this game is head and shoulders above the rest... but it's times like these that make me wonder what the Dev's are thinking. As I said in my first post, it's just ridiculous the way Turbine has chosen to handle the situation.

If griefing by exploit is causing that much of a problem, and the Dev's really don't have a clue how to fix it until Wednesday, issue a warning to players that they run Shroud at their own risk. If griefing is really the issue, then doesn't it make far more sense for those afraid of griefing to voluntarily not run it than to force everyone to not run it, regardless of their intentions? It seems like it'd just be common sense, right? If you don't want to risk grouping with someone who intends to grief via the exploit, don't run shroud. Why do those of us with innocent intentions to have some fun in the end-game have to be forced into that as well?

xman26
12-03-2008, 04:42 PM
1) It's an exploit because it can be clearly identified among the list of exploits/banable offences.

2) Turbine has done things in the past to help get rid of plat farmers. Some methods I agree with, others I do not. But the lack of spamming tells and mail shows me they are doing something and it is better now then before.

3) Why would you put a crazy cap like that on AH pricing? You know how much something is worth? Answer: Whatever someone will pay for it. I wouldn't pay 2 cp for a paralyzing great club, but I would empty all my plat for one Wop Rapier.


1. Clearly identified huh, was unaware that looting was a banable offence, thats for the tip.

2. Turbine has done jack to stop plat farmers. All they have done is to stop the spamming.

3. I said buyout, I said nothing of an actual open auction on an item.

Generals
12-03-2008, 04:43 PM
...the real blame lies in the player base who are knowingly cheating.
/signed


Why is something an exploit because people are looting chests and no completing.
Nothing wrong with that..

shame shame FOD to the weak-kneed lily-livered proud-to-do-it no-apology scum exploiters! :mad:

Whippy
12-03-2008, 04:43 PM
how about just take out all components needed for the spell from vendors and peoples inventories until u fix it.. problem solved.

xman26
12-03-2008, 04:44 PM
apparently the problem is that when someone does this it breaks the quest making it unable to be completed and screwing people that wanted to complete it

you are looking at from only the persprctive of the exploiter and not the victims .

I wish we didn't have to grind so much either but I do my best not to use exploits because it screws other people

Turbine should not close down the most popular quest in the game at this time due to this. They should pull the spell.

and they have less than 24 hours to do it in as I'll be off timer then and looking to run

Aesop


Ok, on that I can agree with you on. But if the person running the raid pointly says it is a loot run, who is really at fault when the person looking for completion doesn't get it?

Deathseeker
12-03-2008, 04:45 PM
I think there is more here than just the deathpact exploit. The quest is designed to actually facilitate it (why else would the crystal exist in part 5)? I think we are blaming the wrong "exploit".

There's got to be something deeper and more insidious going on. I dont' know what it is (glad I don't), but I'm not buying that this is just due to the deathpact method of running the shroud. If it were, it isnt bad enough to warrant an immediate shut down.

One other guess...the lag in the shroud was getting worse and worse. Wondering if this whole deathpact thing was causing some type of long term problem with the server that was causing the lag, thus potentially making the game unplayable if they let it keep going.

Gotta be something more than just the deathpact thing...gotta be...

xman26
12-03-2008, 04:49 PM
The amount of plat farmers I have heard from in last few months has been significantly less than before. I used to get 3-5 tells per hour about plat famers. I have had 1-2 in the last week total. So they have done a good job.

Your way off base on the AH, there would be zero incentive to put anything of value on the AH with the change you want. It would be stupid to make that change to the AH. You want something, earn it.

Also banning of IP address's is not always the best way to resolve things. Plus it is to easy to switch your ip address on a moment's notice, especially since a lot of ISP's use dynamic ip address.

Again, Turbine has doen well to stop the spamming, but not actually stop the farming.

No, an open auction would not have the rule applied, only on the people who wish to do buyouts. Open auction rules stay same, only if you try to place a buyout, your starting bid gets set to 10gp below that price and it can only be 2x face value. I buy very little from AH because I have very little plat. I dont spend my days loot farming like the vast majority of you people. I have already stated once, my time to play is limited and I use it to lvl my toon if I can.

Deathseeker
12-03-2008, 04:49 PM
Turbine has done, zip, zilch, nada to kill off the plat farmers

Yeah, the credability of the rest of the post was pretty much was vaporized right there...

You can argue you don't like how they did it, but saying they havent done anything is simply not accurate...

Isssssa
12-03-2008, 04:50 PM
I think there is more here than just the deathpact exploit. The quest is designed to actually facilitate it (why else would the crystal exist in part 5)? I think we are blaming the wrong "exploit".

There's got to be something deeper and more insidious going on. I dont' know what it is (glad I don't), but I'm not buying that this is just due to the deathpact method of running the shroud. If it were, it isnt bad enough to warrant an immediate shut down.

One other guess...the lag in the shroud was getting worse and worse. Wondering if this whole deathpact thing was causing some type of long term problem with the server that was causing the lag, thus potentially making the game unplayable if they let it keep going.

Gotta be something more than just the deathpact thing...gotta be...

Its not about the exploiting, its about the help ticketing preventing GMs from helping other people.

SciFiCowboy
12-03-2008, 04:51 PM
Actually as I was working on release notes, I did see two different notes about performance improvements.

Thanks for the updates Tolero. It is a touchy issue and I'm sure you're doing your best to fix it quickly and correctly so it doesn't impact the larger world.

xman26
12-03-2008, 04:53 PM
Its not about the exploiting, its about the help ticketing preventing GMs from helping other people.


Person sees a shroud run, its labeled a loot run, they join, dont get completion and then complain because they wanted completion. Well hello you bloody moron, you shouldn't have joined that damn party as they stated it was going to be a loot run. stupid people suck.

nbhs275
12-03-2008, 04:53 PM
1. Clearly identified huh, was unaware that looting was a banable offence, thats for the tip.

2. Turbine has done jack to stop plat farmers. All they have done is to stop the spamming.

3. I said buyout, I said nothing of an actual open auction on an item.

Looting isnt the bannable offence. Its the clear breach of a machanic in the game that stops you from gaining said loot without doing a specific thing. Your intentially bypassing a barrier to gain loot you would otherwise not have access too.

This is in the same vien as how some "elite raiding guilds" used to go about their dragon and titan raids.

Braegan
12-03-2008, 04:53 PM
1. Clearly identified huh, was unaware that looting was a banable offence, thats for the tip.

2. Turbine has done jack to stop plat farmers. All they have done is to stop the spamming.

3. I said buyout, I said nothing of an actual open auction on an item.

1) You're just trying to spin words around. Looting is of course not banable. Bypasses game mechanics, objectives, etc is.

2) Gotta disagree with you man.

3) I still don't understand the cap on AH prices. Alot of it isn't just plat farmers but players looking to make some fast cash. A little while back I was running low on plat, slapped a couple +2 tomes up for buyouts of 350k to 450k and they sold within the day. Legitimate play. I looted, I sold, they bought, everyone happy.

stockwizard5
12-03-2008, 04:53 PM
Despite the completely unethical behavior of a certain developer who I shall never communicate with again (which shows how little fanboy I have) ...

THIS NEEDED TO BE DONE

This was both an exploit and an unstoppable ability to grief an entire party (a rather rare combination). With a majority of shroud LFMs (at least on my server) being for this activity - it was clearly out of control and impacting the integrity of the game.

We now get back to my regular turbine blasting programming ...

Please add transparancy and professionalism to your testing process. You have once again failed the community by having Mournlands filled with alterior motive driven players, unethical developers, and an amazing stuberness against talking to players who have the ability to discuss in detail how the mechanics and implications of potential design decisions impact the game.

DaveyCrockett
12-03-2008, 04:54 PM
Let's look at this..

For the past few weeks, many threads have come and gone discussing the exploit in the Shroud. They were quickly removed from the public eye.

Monday (two days ago), our servers were down for one of the longest periods of time I can remember for maintainence.

This couldn't have been resolved then? Monday? You know, the day you were masking us with maintainence while you were really using all resources of the company and all day to deliver Patch One for Mines of Moria.

Don't treat us like ignorant children. Shoot straight and deliver as promised. That's only an insult if it's true, so if it stings a bit, think about why.

The spell could easily have had its components removed from the database on Monday, and been rendered useless until a better remedy.

The Shroud is the backbone of this game for a large percentage of players right now. That spell is a POS that we can live without forever. You took out the wrong thing.

-DfC

BattleCircle
12-03-2008, 04:54 PM
I think there is more here than just the deathpact exploit. The quest is designed to actually facilitate it (why else would the crystal exist in part 5)? I think we are blaming the wrong "exploit".

There's got to be something deeper and more insidious going on. I dont' know what it is (glad I don't), but I'm not buying that this is just due to the deathpact method of running the shroud. If it were, it isnt bad enough to warrant an immediate shut down.

One other guess...the lag in the shroud was getting worse and worse. Wondering if this whole deathpact thing was causing some type of long term problem with the server that was causing the lag, thus potentially making the game unplayable if they let it keep going.

Gotta be something more than just the deathpact thing...gotta be...


I don't believe there is any other problem, the deathpact exploit was whispered about here and there, but I never saw it used, but then I rarely pug the shroud... it is one of the few fun and reasonably challenging quests where an entire guild can run together....

As has been said before, its turbines fault for not questioning how the spell would work there, and the Mournlands "players" for not bringing it to their attention....

I guess I have been needing a break, maybe I will just stay on it....


OH yeah, would love an invite to Mounlands, I would be willing to actually test the new mods, and not just look for strategies to share with guildies on new content :rolleyes:

Thanks Turbine

Deathseeker
12-03-2008, 04:54 PM
Its not about the exploiting, its about the help ticketing preventing GMs from helping other people.

Ok, I think I'm seeing what you're saying...pugs get prevented from completion, they file a ticket because they want completion, and get ****ed off because the GM can't help them.

If that's the case, here's an interesting question...do they fix the deathpact thingy, or do they make it so you can complete after all is said and done?

I still don't understand why the crystal exists in part 5 if this wasn't intentional on DDO's part...

Beherit_Baphomar
12-03-2008, 04:54 PM
stupid people suck.

Yes, yes they do.

Issip
12-03-2008, 04:54 PM
Taking the game down is not a 'simple' solution. Any time you make a change to the game or bring the worlds down, there is great risk associated with that (take the lag issues we've had to try and hunt on from a simple restart once). Locking one quest presents the least risk to the game - even though it's not any fun to do so because then it means one less quest :(

I appreciate that you are addressing an exploit, all the Mod5 content is dead to me because I refused to exploit and by the time it was fixed the cheaters had all the new Uber loot and I had 2 tome pages that took days of straight playing to acquire.

I must say, however, not having the Shroud is not like having 1 less quest, or even 1 less raid, it is the most popular quest or raid in the game for good reasons. I'm not sure everyone on the Dev team was fully aware of that, but they should be, not only when considering taking it down, but also in considering what content to emulate for Mod9 and beyond.

I read pretty much this entire thread mostly because I wanted to understand what the exploit was - i.e. was it serious enough to justify taking the Shroud down for a week? Since we cannot talk about exploits I'm not sure, although it sounds from the posters who know about it that it was that serious. If it was then I am glad something is being done. I also hope that you have people researching logs to find out who exploited it and banning them permanantly from the game. The reason is that all the Mod5 exploiters have been running around with deathnips and skivvers ever since, and the lesson the community takes away is "Exploit early and exploit often, Turbine won't punish anyone anyway, you get to keep your loot, and evetually they will fix it so you can either miss out or get the goodies while they're free". If, once again, the exploiters get to keep their loot then expect to have more and more people looking for creative ways to exploit your game.

So please be aggresive in identifying the exploiters and banning them. I am sick of playing hard for what others simply steal.

Also, I do think you should consider a downtime to remove the spell and open the Shroud, due mainly to the popularity of the quest. I realize there's risk involved, but if you can find a clever way to disable the spell it would be a major plus to a lot of your players.

Thanks,

Issip

<edit> I wanted to acknowledge that I don't really know what the exploit is, so may be overstating the perma-ban statements above, but if it is skip quest go straight to chest get loot without invoking raid timer cooldown similar to the Mod5 Issues then I'm fine with one strike you're out of the game perma-ban. You knew you were exploiting and you got caught good-bye. If the exploit in question is less severe then that then I apologize for being too aggressive.

xman26
12-03-2008, 04:55 PM
Yeah, the credability of the rest of the post was pretty much was vaporized right there...

You can argue you don't like how they did it, but saying they havent done anything is simply not accurate...

It is? Then why are the people with 1000+ major mana pots, 1000+ relics(your choice), 1000+ scales(again, your choice) still allowed to play the game? Simple, because they can't be bother to actually axe those accounts. Its not like someone actually needs 1000+ major mana pots, 1000+ relics(your choice), 1000+ scales(again, your choice) now is there?

CrimsonEagle
12-03-2008, 04:56 PM
Turbine should not close down the most popular quest in the game at this time due to this. They should pull the spell.
Aesop

Bingo.

It is unfortunate that because of the actions of a few, everyone is punished. See it all of the time.

Rather than shut down the quest, they should have pulled the spell until they fixed the exploit. Yes, this would affect the clerics, but only a little.

The way they have done it, it affects every single character (who can run the quest) across every singel server.

All because of the actions of a few.

Silly says me.

Crimson

BattleCircle
12-03-2008, 04:57 PM
Let's look at this..

For the past few weeks, many threads have come and gone discussing the exploit in the Shroud. They were quickly removed from the public eye.

Monday (two days ago), our servers were down for one of the longest periods of time I can remember for maintainence.

This couldn't have been resolved then? Monday? You know, the day you were masking us with maintainence while you were really using all resources of the company and all day to deliver Patch One for Mines of Moria.

Don't treat us like ignorant children. Shoot straight and deliver as promised. That's only an insult if it's true, so if it stings a bit, think about why.

The spell could easily have had its components removed from the database on Monday, and been rendered useless until a better remedy.

The Shroud is the backbone of this game for a large percentage of players right now. That spell is a POS that we can live without forever. You took out the wrong thing.

-DfC

/signed

Elaril
12-03-2008, 04:57 PM
Wow, Turbine, you really dropped the ball on this one. Terrible, terrible decision.

Isssssa
12-03-2008, 04:58 PM
It was not very prevently used in PUGS on Ghallanda, hence why most ppl from the server are a little less knowledgable than other servers.

Strakeln
12-03-2008, 04:58 PM
Hee, hee, hee, WE are the testers...somewhere, in another dimension, or perhaps a galaxy far, far away real players enjoy a perfect, lag-free world thanks to our Q/A testing!
:eek::p:)No, we end up doing the tester's job. They do have QA/QC people (Slithe is one of them, I believe). This is just another case of them doing incomplete testing... or at the very least, coming up with horribly inadequate test cases.

Meh... I should stop being a pain. I frickin hate that quest and avoid it at all costs. Whoever thought that beating on freaking PORTALS would be fun needs to be taken out to the parking lot and be forced to pay for the priviledge of having his foot run over, twice. Cuz that's about the same level of fun as the Shroud. Actually, a bit more.

xman26
12-03-2008, 04:59 PM
Looting isnt the bannable offence. Its the clear breach of a machanic in the game that stops you from gaining said loot without doing a specific thing. Your intentially bypassing a barrier to gain loot you would otherwise not have access too.

This is in the same vien as how some "elite raiding guilds" used to go about their dragon and titan raids.

UNless there was a different way to skip pt4 and get pt5, kill the 4 luetinents, then the pit fiend, grab chests, rince recycle repeat, where exactly is the problem here as you are fighting pt5 as you are supposed to to get the chests.

you just dont get completion for it.

Braegan
12-03-2008, 05:00 PM
I still don't understand why the crystal exists in part 5 if this wasn't intentional on DDO's part...

I've heard about that and wondered the same thing myself. Why not just make the crystal "unbreakable" until part 4 of shroud is completed?

Whippy
12-03-2008, 05:01 PM
Despite the completely unethical behavior of a certain developer who I shall never communicate with again (which shows how little fanboy I have) ...

THIS NEEDED TO BE DONE

This was both an exploit and an unstoppable ability to grief an entire party (a rather rare combination). With a majority of shroud LFMs (at least on my server) being for this activity - it was clearly out of control and impacting the integrity of the game.

We now get back to my regular turbine blasting programming.


Then thelanis should be ashamed of itself.

kingfisher
12-03-2008, 05:01 PM
Actually as I was working on release notes, I did see two different notes about performance improvements.
sweet. i would sacrifice the 6-12 larges i might gain this week just to be able to run the shroud as intended.

nbhs275
12-03-2008, 05:01 PM
Person sees a shroud run, its labeled a loot run, they join, dont get completion and then complain because they wanted completion. Well hello you bloody moron, you shouldn't have joined that damn party as they stated it was going to be a loot run. stupid people suck.

Only a moron would consider exploiting to a be a standard tactic. And the funniest part about all of your posts, is not only are you complaining about not having time enough to "grind" but you are doing the least effiecient looting you can. If you run a shroud like a normal, non cheating play, then your gunna get 1.5 larges in about 45 minutes in a good group. Cheating, your getting 1 large in the same amount of time...You see the problem there?

Beherit_Baphomar
12-03-2008, 05:02 PM
UNless there was a different way to skip pt4 and get pt5, kill the 4 luetinents, then the pit fiend, grab chests, rince recycle repeat, where exactly is the problem here as you are fighting pt5 as you are supposed to to get the chests.

you just dont get completion for it.

Dude, why are we having to spell this out for you?

Not getting completion and looting the chests over and over is not as intended.

Why is this difficult to understand?

Naash
12-03-2008, 05:03 PM
you turbin guys should all be replaced. you add a spell to the game that you dont do the research to see if it will cause an exploit. then shut down the #1 quest in the game. this is laughable. i hope you all know how to make burgers and french fries cuz this may be time for you all to think about a fallback plan. i heard that in addition to sending monkeys into space they were working on training them how to make a video game and actually check that everything works before throwing it out haphazzardly. oh and for the record mod 8 was a joke too.

Just couldnt leave that monkey reference out of there could ya......

xman26
12-03-2008, 05:03 PM
Despite the completely unethical behavior of a certain developer who I shall never communicate with again (which shows how little fanboy I have) ...

THIS NEEDED TO BE DONE

This was both an exploit and an unstoppable ability to grief an entire party (a rather rare combination). With a majority of shroud LFMs (at least on my server) being for this activity - it was clearly out of control and impacting the integrity of the game.

We now get back to my regular turbine blasting programming ...

Please add transparancy and professionalism to your testing process. You have once again failed the community by having Mournlands filled with alterior motive driven players, unethical developers, and an amazing stuberness against talking to players who can discuss in detail the mechanics and implications of potential design decisions.


Yes, because stupid people who joined a clearly stated loot run should be placated to.

Braegan
12-03-2008, 05:04 PM
Then thelanis should be ashamed of itself.

I'm pretty sure it was happening game-wide, or they would've just shut the shroud down on Thelanis alone.

cpampine
12-03-2008, 05:05 PM
grrr... the very day i reactivate my subscription

Isssssa
12-03-2008, 05:07 PM
I'm pretty sure it was happening game-wide, or they would've just shut the shroud down on Thelanis alone.

Someone posted the method about 2-3 days ago on the forums. They were verbally warned but not banned for their actions. Their little post probably helped the rapid spread of the problem.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=165253&highlight=bug+shroud

Mindspat
12-03-2008, 05:08 PM
The Shroud raid has been temporarily closed due to widespread griefing of players by other players using a game exploit. Disciplinary action has proved ineffective in curbing the griefing using this exploit, and it has become broad, impacting too many users’ game play. The quest will be reopened in the next game patch.

You guys, and gals, at Turbine need to take a more hard lined approach to this ****. Ban the character, not the account, that's caught directing these exploits. When I say ban, I mean take the character away for a month, or forever!

Turbine's the bad parent in this case: "Don't do that or you're gonig to get into trouble" 10th time later: "I mean it, you're going to get into trouble" nth exploit: "OK, I'm going to have to punish you if you keep on doing that."

xman26
12-03-2008, 05:09 PM
Dude, why are we having to spell this out for you?

Not getting completion and looting the chests over and over is not as intended.

Why is this difficult to understand?

Well hell, why have a recall button in quest if thats the case. POP and the boots anyone? Got my boots, ok, we done, leave quest. You have just looted and not completed have you not. Same thing here. to get the chests for any 1 pt of shroud, you have to complete that part of shroud. So if you beat pt5, why should you not get the chests just because you skipped pt4? You can loot POP all day long if you wanted and not complete it, whats teh difference here. All I know, you think its an exploit because you can get gaurunteed small, med and large ingros without having to wait 3 days to repeat the steps again. Give me a break. If thats teh case, take away the recall button from all quests that have multiple names guys with named loot.

Sirea
12-03-2008, 05:10 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with the people who call for temporarily removing the spell instead of shutting down the entire raid. I was going to try and craft my first item this week, after being intimidated by the crafting system for a long time, and now I can't :( This just seems like another instance of the "get a hangnail, cut off the whole hand" thing that Turbine's been engaging in as of late; I still don't agree with trial accounts not being able to /tell, because I knew the plat farmers would get around it, which they have.

As another poster said, the spell is more of a novelty, and it took me a good week or two to remember to mem it and I still forget I have it and it's right there on my hotbar :/ I'd hate to see more players leave over this. Please find another way around the exploit so the entire player base is not getting punished.

nbhs275
12-03-2008, 05:11 PM
UNless there was a different way to skip pt4 and get pt5, kill the 4 luetinents, then the pit fiend, grab chests, rince recycle repeat, where exactly is the problem here as you are fighting pt5 as you are supposed to to get the chests.

you just dont get completion for it.

If your using this exploit, your skipping part 4. Which is part of the linier progression of the quest, and is required normally to get into part 5. Using a spell to bypass an INTENTIONAL barrier that if failed blocks progress past that point. Simple as that.

Xman, stop argueing the point. The community knows its an exploit. The devs have acknowledged its an exploit. What else do you want? I really suggest you dont continue to voice your support of the use of an exploit.

Junts
12-03-2008, 05:12 PM
Interesting, and while I've not played much over the last 3 weeks or so....... The times I've run the Shroud, none of the gorups I've been in have even considered or talked much about the *******. It was discussed early on when Mod 8 ame out and roundly tossed as being a stupid action. I cant' see how there could be that many that would be using it too grief others, it seems those people that were using it to grief naems would passed around very quikly.


Sad..... :(

you kind of exclusively run with guildies/friends in a guild that caused a huge thread hullaballoo here a bit ago by all ddooring out of a shroud where the exploit was attempted; who was gonna suggest it to you? ;)


i have heard this was more prevalent on other servers, with pugs advertising, etc - any truth?

DaveyCrockett
12-03-2008, 05:12 PM
Well hell, why have a recall button in quest if thats the case. POP and the boots anyone? Got my boots, ok, we done, leave quest. You have just looted and not completed have you not. Same thing here. to get the chests for any 1 pt of shroud, you have to complete that part of shroud. So if you beat pt5, why should you not get the chests just because you skipped pt4? You can loot POP all day long if you wanted and not complete it, whats teh difference here. All I know, you think its an exploit because you can get gaurunteed small, med and large ingros without having to wait 3 days to repeat the steps again. Give me a break. If thats teh case, take away the recall button from all quests that have multiple names guys with named loot.

Your own examples would answer your question if you would stop and think.

PoP for boots. The quest objective for that chest is to clear the room. You did that. You got the chest. The entire quest is not the required for that chest. It is not an END chest.

Part 5 of the Shroud is the end, it requires the other parts to have been completed, and to get the last chests, all requirements should have been completed. By skipping part 4, they were not.

Open your eyes.

GreenGurgler
12-03-2008, 05:12 PM
Taking the game down is not a 'simple' solution. Any time you make a change to the game or bring the worlds down, there is great risk associated with that (take the lag issues we've had to try and hunt on from a simple restart once). Locking one quest presents the least risk to the game - even though it's not any fun to do so because then it means one less quest :(

Um... suuuure.

So how is taking it down NEXT week any different from taking it down NOW?

Seems like the better bet is to take it down for JUST THIS ONE FIX, that way if something goes wrong, you know its related to JUST THIS FIX. But if you bundle it with next weeks patch, and everything gets screwed up... now you have to spend ALOT more time trying to figure out which piece of bubble gum came loose or which piece of duct tape broke.

Seems to me youll have the same chance of breaking it next week that you always seem to have when applying updates/hotfixes/patches.

And it doesnt just mean one less quest, it means the ONE MOST PLAYED quest is shut down. Maybe new players beleive the line of 'we'll fix it next week...' and believe that you actually can and will fix it without screwing it up royally and leaving it shut down for weeks!!! Your history proves otherwise and long term players arnt buying it.

:mad::mad::mad::eek::eek::confused::mad::mad:

Beherit_Baphomar
12-03-2008, 05:13 PM
Well hell, why have a recall button in quest if thats the case. POP and the boots anyone? Got my boots, ok, we done, leave quest. You have just looted and not completed have you not. Same thing here. to get the chests for any 1 pt of shroud, you have to complete that part of shroud. So if you beat pt5, why should you not get the chests just because you skipped pt4? You can loot POP all day long if you wanted and not complete it, whats teh difference here. All I know, you think its an exploit because you can get gaurunteed small, med and large ingros without having to wait 3 days to repeat the steps again. Give me a break. If thats teh case, take away the recall button from all quests that have multiple names guys with named loot.

You make my brain hurt.

Vistram
12-03-2008, 05:13 PM
As angry as I am at Turbine for this, the blame lies squarely on all those FEW players who exploited this raid because of their own greed. Their greed got the rest of us punished

BS.

When there are exploits in a major operating system that can effect any other machine on the Internet running said OS did the company that wrote it turn it off?

The blame lies wholely on the development and QA staff.

Rather then remove the blade that drops and cuts they just moved the body to cut off less.

This game doesn't even have true competition between characters so who gives a rats petard if someone exploited every item in the game, it would effect me very little.

Here's what I think happened:

TURBINE White Collar: "Umm we have reports that large ingredient counts are rising at an abnormal rate. This is screwing up our keeping the "Hamsters" in check. We need a soultion! We don't have anything else for them to grind on till Q3 2009 at best."

TURBINE Developer: (exhaling a thick cloud of smoke) "Turn the Shroud off man..."

mehlinda
12-03-2008, 05:13 PM
I have skipped the last 2 months playing and just logged in today to find the Shroud closed due to exploiting. I am completely unsurprised to see it's the usual suspects on Thelanis at least. Funny how its always the same people who call it what it isn't and can't understand why it's not okay. Glad I don't have to know them in RL.

Braegan
12-03-2008, 05:14 PM
If your using this exploit, your skipping part 4. Which is part of the linier progression of the quest, and is required normally to get into part 5. Using a spell to bypass an INTENTIONAL barrier that if failed blocks progress past that point. Simple as that.

Xman, stop argueing the point. The community knows its an exploit. The devs have acknowledged its an exploit. What else do you want? I really suggest you dont continue to voice your support of the use of an exploit.

Awww...don't tell him to stop. With no shroud to run tonight (had two come off timer earlier) I rather enjoy this "slow-motion-train-wreck." :)

Tin_Dragon
12-03-2008, 05:14 PM
:eek: :mad: GIMME A FRICKEN BREAK! :mad:

I have my 2 main toons off timer RIGHT NOW, READY FOR 20th RUNS!!!!!


That was my plan tonight, Weds is Guild Shroud night, and you decide instead of PUNISHING those doing these "exploits" you shut off the MOST POPLULAR< MOST RUN Raid currently in the game?

How ABOUT SHUT OFF THE SPELL THAT IS THE BACKBONE of this issue, we did fine without it!! ffs, what backwards, stupid way to stop people from getting loot. AND what is the difference from this, and people who do parts 1-x but DONT complete? seriously, this is RIDICULOUS.

Talk about being pigeon holed into doing **** we dont want to do, and I just flagged my 5th toon for this as well. :mad:

nbhs275
12-03-2008, 05:15 PM
You make my brain hurt.

I know eh? Its like trying to reason with a 13 year olds imaginary friend whos hopped up on PCP and pixie sticks.

mehlinda
12-03-2008, 05:16 PM
Good luck trying to explain why its an exploit to xman23..look at his tag..it explains it all.. it's a "feature" to be used until unavailable.

Punishment
12-03-2008, 05:18 PM
hmmm... I'm not thrilled by this

I dunno what the exploit was but fix it quick

I have crafting to do and I have a lot of Larges to get

Aesop

I'm with you on this one! Returning player that just made it in Shroud and was fortunate enough to have some friends help get ingredients and ready to craft Tier 1&2.. Now I must wait a week. It's like being punished or something..lol - Oh well I will work a lowbie I suppose.

Return_To_Forever
12-03-2008, 05:20 PM
meh, I will do something else. All these dramatic posts just make me shake my head, yeh your right, it is the most popular thing to do, yeh its the backbone, but its not being removed FOREVER!
/shrug


Also there are other things in Mod8 content that need fixing, I hope you guys are addressing these things. It all makes me more than curious who is testing these things for you guys, it really seems like they are not doin a very good job.

EazyWeazy
12-03-2008, 05:20 PM
I miss the days when Thelanis was known more for butterflies than UberXploiters.

:(

And I hate butterflies!!! :D

bobbryan2
12-03-2008, 05:21 PM
You talk about bringing down the game and all the bad news that comes with that.

But you completely forget that simply turning the shroud off has a ton of consequences. The Shroud is the only reason that dozens and dozens of people haven't cancelled their accounts. Shutting it down for a week really isn't acceptable, especially when it's Turbine's fault in the first place for releasing a spell that would OBVIOUSLY break it.

Take some responsibility. You've known about the exploit for weeks, and you are just now taking the game down? Weeks ago, you could have removed the spell. Or for a few weeks you could have been coding a quick fix to actually fix the Shroud.

Don't claim that your only two options now are shutting down the quest, or shutting down the game. You've had WEEKS to figure out some kind of fix without it severely impacting the servers.

bobbryan2
12-03-2008, 05:22 PM
meh, I will do something else. All these dramatic posts just make me shake my head, yeh your right, it is the most popular thing to do, yeh its the backbone, but its not being removed FOREVER!
/shrug


Also there are other things in Mod8 content that need fixing, I hope you guys are addressing these things. It all makes me more than curious who is testing these things for you guys, it really seems like they are not doin a very good job.

Yes, there are tons of things that need fixing with Mod 8 content. But it's a good thing no one runs Mod 8 content and was back to the Shroud after two weeks...

Gunga
12-03-2008, 05:24 PM
You talk about bringing down the game and all the bad news that comes with that.

But you completely forget that simply turning the shroud off has a ton of consequences. The Shroud is the only reason that dozens and dozens of people haven't cancelled their accounts. Shutting it down for a week really isn't acceptable, especially when it's Turbine's fault in the first place for releasing a spell that would OBVIOUSLY break it.

Take some responsibility. You've known about the exploit for weeks, and you are just now taking the game down? Weeks ago, you could have removed the spell. Or for a few weeks you could have been coding a quick fix to actually fix the Shroud.

Don't claim that your only two options now are shutting down the quest, or shutting down the game. You've had WEEKS to figure out some kind of fix without it severely impacting the servers.

That's called using your thinker right there.

/signed.

Durack
12-03-2008, 05:24 PM
too funny , they will shut it down if people get a few extra large's (all be it maybe in a manner not intended) but they wont shut it down due to unplayable LAG..

How bout this leave it down until you fix the mysterious lag that haunts that place along with every other instance as of late.

Amazing, simply amazing......

bobbryan2
12-03-2008, 05:25 PM
Always look on the bright side right?

At least this can't go anywhere near as horribly wrong as when the Abbot was taken down to fix exploiting and become completable as intended. Which is funny because over a year later (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=161293), we are still actually waiting for that to happen.

Better off a few days instead of over a year..

They haven't brought the workable Shroud up yet...

xman26
12-03-2008, 05:25 PM
Your own examples would answer your question if you would stop and think.

PoP for boots. The quest objective for that chest is to clear the room. You did that. You got the chest. The entire quest is not the required for that chest. It is not an END chest.

Part 5 of the Shroud is the end, it requires the other parts to have been completed, and to get the last chests, all requirements should have been completed. By skipping part 4, they were not.

Open your eyes.

Sorry disagree very much, the chest to each pt is based on completion of just that pt. if they intended for you do all 5 to get all 5, then they shouldn't have included the silly death zone teley thing into the shroud.

Deathseeker
12-03-2008, 05:27 PM
I still don't understand...

Why was there a crystal in Part 5? If the quest was not meant to interact with deathpact in this manner...why the crystal? Someone?

Don't get me wrong, I think this whole mess stinks, and wish they would fix it in a hotfix, and not shutdown for a week. But if it wasn't intended...why the crystal????? What other purpose does it serve in the raid?

Torosar
12-03-2008, 05:30 PM
Always look on the bright side right?

At least this can't go anywhere near as horribly wrong as when the Abbot was taken down to fix exploiting and become completable as intended. Which is funny because over a year later (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=161293), we are still actually waiting for that to happen.

Better off a few days instead of over a year..

Mindspat
12-03-2008, 05:31 PM
Well hell, why have a recall button in quest if thats the case. POP and the boots anyone? Got my boots, ok, we done, leave quest. You have just looted and not completed have you not. Same thing here. to get the chests for any 1 pt of shroud, you have to complete that part of shroud. So if you beat pt5, why should you not get the chests just because you skipped pt4? You can loot POP all day long if you wanted and not complete it, whats teh difference here. All I know, you think its an exploit because you can get gaurunteed small, med and large ingros without having to wait 3 days to repeat the steps again. Give me a break. If thats teh case, take away the recall button from all quests that have multiple names guys with named loot.

Am I the only one who identifies the illogical jiberish exploiters spew when attempting to justify cheating? :rolleyes:

Mindspat
12-03-2008, 05:33 PM
Lets see, I play 2 nights a week, 5-6 hours each. have had to deal with Turbine constantly nerfing this game in one shape form or fashion to appease the cry babies who can't figure out how to zerg to 16 in 7 days or whatever else. They have a ingro loot table that is so far screwed its unbelievable and when someone figures out how to fast track ingros so they dont have spend 30-60-90 days of multitoon running the shroud to complete items, it becomes a problem because of cry babies. Only problem her is, these people after they complete their items will still need every 20 runs on each toon that has a wearable item to clense the thing. All this does is screw the casual player into having to gring things out even harder/longer. I've been playing this game for 2+ years now and only have 2 capped toons and no, i dont constanly reroll. I have 3 mains I play with, my first and only 28pt, and 2 32pt builds. the rest are simply there to play with.

Oh, the irony!:rolleyes:

You should edit your posts as your comming across as the person who's crying the most in this thread. :D

Braegan
12-03-2008, 05:33 PM
Sorry disagree very much, the chest to each pt is based on completion of just that pt. if they intended for you do all 5 to get all 5, then they shouldn't have included the silly death zone teley thing into the shroud.

1) Well you are disagreeing with facts known and stated by playerbase as well as devs. You are entitled to your opinion, however wrong it may be :)

2) They did intend for you to run all 5 parts in sequence. It was never an issue before a certain cleric spell was released.

Mhykke
12-03-2008, 05:34 PM
I haven't been able to play much lately do due exams, but when I have logged on, its been for shrouds.

And b/c I had to log on randomly, I would pug random groups for shrouds.

I've never heard anyone mention the exploit to try and get the group to go along.

I find it hard to believe that many people were doing it that it would justify shutting down the most run game for a week, maybe more!


This is poor, poor decision making.

stockwizard5
12-03-2008, 05:36 PM
I know players don't really care why - but this type of thing was an inevitable result.

Current test theory is completely in conflict with the use of closed static groups.

It is stunning that a project of this magnitude is being driven by such amaturish processes.

Aspenor
12-03-2008, 05:36 PM
wow, this NEVER happens on Argo....

naughty naughty other servers...

you have to go and spoil everybody's fun.

Vorn
12-03-2008, 05:36 PM
Unbelievable to me that some folks can actually try and defend the concept of getting the last two chests and no completion in a raid quest.
:rolleyes:
Lots of ways to fix this--disable the spell, lock those last two chests unless all required quest objectives have been accomplished, etc.

Guess I'll go grind sovereign runes to play tier three slots.

Or maybe play a lowbie.

Or read a book.

It's too bad really, as I actually enjoy pugging the shroud--there's a bit of a thrill in the risk of pugging and not knowing what caliber of folks are going to be there.

xman26
12-03-2008, 05:37 PM
Am I the only one who identifies the illogical jiberish exploiters spew when attempting to justify cheating? :rolleyes:


If people were getting the chests in pt5 without actually doing pt5, then i'd agree to the sxploit thing, but they aren't so i dont see it as an exploit. the chest are tied to pt5, completion is tied to completing all 5 pts. Why is this a hard concept to get.

Korvek
12-03-2008, 05:38 PM
I still don't understand...

Why was there a crystal in Part 5? If the quest was not meant to interact with deathpact in this manner...why the crystal? Someone?

Don't get me wrong, I think this whole mess stinks, and wish they would fix it in a hotfix, and not shutdown for a week. But if it wasn't intended...why the crystal????? What other purpose does it serve in the raid?

Dramatic Effect. Arraetrikos destroys the crystal and everyone instantly ressurects.

Wizzly_Bear
12-03-2008, 05:41 PM
I am very disappointed. I am disappointed in the weak players who felt the need to cheat (especially by screwing others), and I am disappointed in Turbine's handling of the matter.

To the weak, spineless, and assinine players who did this - learn some respect, acquire some skill, and for {insert religious deity here}'s sake, if you are going to cheat, at least do it smartly. You bypassed part 4 chests to get part 5 why? Because you are so weak you cannot beat part 4? Either way you get 2 and lose 2 chests of the same value and ingredient size. And to do this kind of thing in a PUG......boy, y'all must have been top of your class in idiocy. Nobody takes kindly to being screwed over, but especially to do it to strangers without them knowing about it - you had to know you were going to be reported. I hope you all got banned and that you never return.

Turial
12-03-2008, 05:41 PM
I still don't understand...

Why was there a crystal in Part 5? If the quest was not meant to interact with deathpact in this manner...why the crystal? Someone?

Don't get me wrong, I think this whole mess stinks, and wish they would fix it in a hotfix, and not shutdown for a week. But if it wasn't intended...why the crystal????? What other purpose does it serve in the raid?

Ok I'll bite, what crystal are you talking about? I haven't died in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th parts of the shroud in a long time.

Dymond
12-03-2008, 05:41 PM
Well hell, why have a recall button in quest if thats the case. POP and the boots anyone? Got my boots, ok, we done, leave quest. You have just looted and not completed have you not. Same thing here. to get the chests for any 1 pt of shroud, you have to complete that part of shroud. So if you beat pt5, why should you not get the chests just because you skipped pt4? You can loot POP all day long if you wanted and not complete it, whats teh difference here. All I know, you think its an exploit because you can get gaurunteed small, med and large ingros without having to wait 3 days to repeat the steps again. Give me a break. If thats teh case, take away the recall button from all quests that have multiple names guys with named loot.


You seem to know alot about exploits for a 'casual player'. As a real casual player could I ask you politely to shut the hell up? I want you to go back and read every post from every ticked off player who had their favorite raid taken away because you were too freaking lazy to do it right. My suggestion to you Mr. 'Casual Player' is if you don't want to take the time to do it the right way, don't do it it all.

and to everyone else.. The Raid is down.. It sucks.. But its Christmas.. Go watch 'Its a wonderful life' or another great Christmas movie.

Korvek
12-03-2008, 05:42 PM
If people were getting the chests in pt5 without actually doing pt5, then i'd agree to the sxploit thing, but they aren't so i dont see it as an exploit. the chest are tied to pt5, completion is tied to completing all 5 pts. Why is this a hard concept to get.

Given that it's already been listed as an exploit, there's little point in arguing it isn't, isn't there?

It is intended that one must complete the raid to receive guaranteed large ingredient(s) in part 5. Given that that is no longer working as intended for certain people taking advantage of a bug, those people are effectively breaking the raid and exploiting.

Technically speaking, the chests should not be achievable in the first place without completing the raid. Why do you think the altar must be attuned for the barrier to drop, while that isn't the case in any other part?

xman26
12-03-2008, 05:42 PM
Thank you, I appreciate that you are taking exploiting seriously and doing the right thing.

When there are numerous LFMs up on a regular basis saying they are going to exploit the shroud there is an issue.

Looking forward to the exploit fixed shroud when it goes live.


Yes because getting loot without completion is such a bad thing even thou people are completing pt5 to get the chests.

People complete POP ice room for chest and leave. dont see the issue.

Pyromaniac
12-03-2008, 05:42 PM
Thank you, I appreciate that you are taking exploiting seriously and doing the right thing.

When there are numerous LFMs up on a regular basis saying they are going to exploit the shroud there is an issue. I can see why you don't want to permaban the offenders as it hurts revenue, though frankly would like some justice applied to those who were obviously and clearly exploiting. Looking forward to the exploit fixed shroud when it goes live.

uncensored
12-03-2008, 05:43 PM
I can't believe the definition of exploit here. The game has a new spell added "Death Pact", The spell works the way it is supposed to, to give players a second chance if something goes wrong in a run, which seldom happens but it can with a bad group, i.e. a group I ran the other night, and all the sudden it is an exploit. Honestly, the definition of exploit needs to be well defined. Yes if someone is purposely passing parts in order to get past to other parts of a quest then it could be considered this, however the group I was with was willing to try part 4 again when it was a failure and try for a completions. I do not believe this is a exploit in this case but hey who am I? A player paying each month to play a game I enjoy.

That said, how many times have I seen, shroud groups for part 1 only or parts 1 - 3 only in the past, is this not an exploit as well or a loot run or both? Again you are not completing the quest, only running to get items you need. And what about people who finish out of the quest before the quest is over? They run it over again and again until they ransack and then finally do a completion; again this is not completing the quest until they want to complete it. Is this not an exploit? You are looting? Are you not? If you were not why not run the entire quest and not get anything from any chest?

But honestly, this is only a game, and those people who do these things to get plat, i.e. farming, or need to run things over and over again just so they can have every item in the game on every character need to get a life, honestly, D&D was supposed to be fun, I enjoy the game playing it, doing the quests I think are fun, and a challenge and then bam, it's shut down.

Now to stay neutral on this topic, the people crying exploit need to get a life as well, STOP JOINING GROUPS THAT SAY LOOT RUN IF YOU WANT TO COMPLETE!!! Or better yet, IF YOU DON’T LIKE HOW PEOPLE RUN A GROUP DON’T JOIN THEM, I DON’T, WHY DO YOU? I mean come on, it is a game, why are you playing if you are just going to buy everything and not do the quests? I just think this has gone way too far, they say the abbot can be completed even after people complained, but for some reason I can't find a group to do it yet, but if I did then what? Cry wolf, say it's an exploit, change it again, come on, these quests are designed for lower level toons, now look at the quest level for Reaver and ask yourself, what level is this quest and what levels are really running it thanks to all the crying!

I'm just frustrated again, and really wish a new game would come out that I would like better so I can stop listing to this entire BS all the time, it really ****es me off!

Beherit_Baphomar
12-03-2008, 05:43 PM
Thank you, I appreciate that you are taking exploiting seriously and doing the right thing.

When there are numerous LFMs up on a regular basis saying they are going to exploit the shroud there is an issue. I can see why you don't want to permaban the offenders as it hurts revenue, though frankly would like some justice applied to those who were obviously and clearly exploiting. Looking forward to the exploit fixed shroud when it goes live.

Like Asp said this never happened on Argo...

What all yall other servers doing guys?!?

Turial
12-03-2008, 05:45 PM
Like Asp said this never happened on Argo...

What all yall other servers doing guys?!?

Stealing the Abbots Halloween pumpkins in protest of the broken mod 5 raid.

Quanefel
12-03-2008, 05:46 PM
Thank you, I appreciate that you are taking exploiting seriously and doing the right thing.

When there are numerous LFMs up on a regular basis saying they are going to exploit the shroud there is an issue. I can see why you don't want to permaban the offenders as it hurts revenue, though frankly would like some justice applied to those who were obviously and clearly exploiting. Looking forward to the exploit fixed shroud when it goes live.

How about this for justice? Instead of banning them or temp banning them, be more inventive. Delete that character that was used to cheat. All their other characters are fine, but delete just that one. Even the thought of it might make a person think twice about cheating purposely again.

SableShadow
12-03-2008, 05:48 PM
Yes because getting loot without completion is such a bad thing even thou people are completing pt5 to get the chests.

People complete POP ice room for chest and leave. dont see the issue.

It bypasses the raid timer...consider any other raid, then give the ability to loot the end chest and bypass the timer.

Don't agree?

xman26
12-03-2008, 05:50 PM
You seem to know alot about exploits for a 'casual player'. As a real casual player could I ask you politely to shut the hell up? I want you to go back and read every post from every ticked off player who had their favorite raid taken away because you were too freaking lazy to do it right. My suggestion to you Mr. 'Casual Player' is if you don't want to take the time to do it the right way, don't do it it all.

Atleast you got casuall player right. I already stated once, I haven't done it, but know those who have and know how they did it.

Mhykke
12-03-2008, 05:50 PM
Yes because getting loot without completion is such a bad thing even thou people are completing pt5 to get the chests.

People complete POP ice room for chest and leave. dont see the issue.

Give it a rest.

Do you really need this explained to you? Seriously?

Alright, here goes. Large ingredients are the equivalent of raid loot. Getting raid loot puts people on timers.

The exploit guaranteed ingredients (raid loot) for everyone in party, without going on timer.

Is that really all that difficult to understand? Come on, this isn't difficult.

Jovial
12-03-2008, 05:51 PM
OMG! One whole week! Now I might have to spend some time time with my family. Whoa is me! Whoa is me!

xman26
12-03-2008, 05:51 PM
I can't believe the definition of exploit here. The game has a new spell added "Death Pact", The spell works the way it is supposed to, to give players a second chance if something goes wrong in a run, which seldom happens but it can with a bad group, i.e. a group I ran the other night, and all the sudden it is an exploit. Honestly, the definition of exploit needs to be well defined. Yes if someone is purposely passing parts in order to get past to other parts of a quest then it could be considered this, however the group I was with was willing to try part 4 again when it was a failure and try for a completions. I do not believe this is a exploit in this case but hey who am I? A player paying each month to play a game I enjoy.

That said, how many times have I seen, shroud groups for part 1 only or parts 1 - 3 only in the past, is this not an exploit as well or a loot run or both? Again you are not completing the quest, only running to get items you need. And what about people who finish out of the quest before the quest is over? They run it over again and again until they ransack and then finally do a completion; again this is not completing the quest until they want to complete it. Is this not an exploit? You are looting? Are you not? If you were not why not run the entire quest and not get anything from any chest?

But honestly, this is only a game, and those people who do these things to get plat, i.e. farming, or need to run things over and over again just so they can have every item in the game on every character need to get a life, honestly, D&D was supposed to be fun, I enjoy the game playing it, doing the quests I think are fun, and a challenge and then bam, it's shut down.

Now to stay neutral on this topic, the people crying exploit need to get a life as well, STOP JOINING GROUPS THAT SAY LOOT RUN IF YOU WANT TO COMPLETE!!! Or better yet, IF YOU DON’T LIKE HOW PEOPLE RUN A GROUP DON’T JOIN THEM, I DON’T, WHY DO YOU? I mean come on, it is a game, why are you playing if you are just going to buy everything and not do the quests? I just think this has gone way too far, they say the abbot can be completed even after people complained, but for some reason I can't find a group to do it yet, but if I did then what? Cry wolf, say it's an exploit, change it again, come on, these quests are designed for lower level toons, now look at the quest level for Reaver and ask yourself, what level is this quest and what levels are really running it thanks to all the crying!

I'm just frustrated again, and really wish a new game would come out that I would like better so I can stop listing to this entire BS all the time, it really ****es me off!

/signed

xman26
12-03-2008, 05:52 PM
It bypasses the raid timer...consider any other raid, then give the ability to loot the end chest and bypass the timer.

Don't agree?


No I dont as all other raids have named items in the end chests, where are the named items in teh shroud end chest?

Mhykke
12-03-2008, 05:53 PM
let's Look At This..

For The Past Few Weeks, Many Threads Have Come And Gone Discussing The Exploit In The Shroud. They Were Quickly Removed From The Public Eye.

Monday (two Days Ago), Our Servers Were Down For One Of The Longest Periods Of Time I Can Remember For Maintainence.

This Couldn't Have Been Resolved Then? Monday? You Know, The Day You Were Masking Us With Maintainence While You Were Really Using All Resources Of The Company And All Day To Deliver Patch One For Mines Of Moria.

Don't Treat Us Like Ignorant Children. Shoot Straight And Deliver As Promised. That's Only An Insult If It's True, So If It Stings A Bit, Think About Why.

The Spell Could Easily Have Had Its Components Removed From The Database On Monday, And Been Rendered Useless Until A Better Remedy.

The Shroud Is The Backbone Of This Game For A Large Percentage Of Players Right Now. That Spell Is A Pos That We Can Live Without Forever. You Took Out The Wrong Thing.

-dfc

Qft

Gordo
12-03-2008, 05:57 PM
I was thinking on the way home, I find it funny that anyone even needs to use an exploit in the Shroud.

Unreal.

Return_To_Forever
12-03-2008, 05:57 PM
Yes, there are tons of things that need fixing with Mod 8 content. But it's a good thing no one runs Mod 8 content and was back to the Shroud after two weeks...

I run it, as do many other people, and have acouple guys I'm still tryin to outfit with Dtouched 2 that I have coming up specifically made to wear it and 1 that I already got the tiers I wanted. Is it as popular as the shroud, no, would it have been better with some sick named loot, yeh, is it the best Mod EVA! no, but people are running it.

xman26
12-03-2008, 05:57 PM
Are you serious? I mean, are you for real?

Is it that tough to understand that large ingredients are the equivalent of raid loot, and the only place one is guaranteed to get one is part 5, and that's after you complete the quest and start on your timer?

Is it really difficult to see a similarity? (hint: don't say yes, you'll look worse than you already do.)

If thats the case, BIND THE DAMN LARGES LIKE ALL OTHER RAID END NAMED GEAR!
Oh wait, they wont do that, it'll hurt the plat farmer they still haven't gotten rid of from teh game.

Aspenor
12-03-2008, 05:58 PM
lol if you didn't know you were doing something unintended doing this, you're a noob.

noobsauce

noober

freakin noobwater.

and i mean this seriously.

suitepotato
12-03-2008, 05:58 PM
What you're overlooking is Turbine's much bigger epic fail at the root of this: they have no concrete simple effective method of activating/deactivating each spell, effect, monster, etc. A simple active yes/no flag variable on each thing that can be or not, and the requisite code behavior to actually look at that flag, and set as needed in the database as and when needed, such that it is read by the ongoing game, and integrates smoothly. Enter a no and a certain monster will not spawn from that point on until it is turned to yes.

This sort of simple thing would have obviated most of the raid shutdowns, downtimes, etc. Flip a setting until you have the big pile of fixes ready to roll and then get them done all at once.

If such a system had been in place, then it would have been a simple thing to turn off that spell. If it had been a fine grained enough system, it could even have been turned off in that quest specifically and not elsewhere.

Sadly, Turbine neglected something which has been done in other game programming going back to 8-bit days of programs running in 48K of memory and that is what is truly causing us grief: vast undertakings with half-vast ideas.

To the devs, please for the love of all that is holy and good, or at least your own futures in the industry, start studying the ways of software engineering for critical cannot-fail systems. You're dealing with bored and disaffected people who've found something they like to give some part of their lives meaning, even if you think that's being melodramatic. Look at their responses to your actions and ask if you should design your games in such a way that minor things cause major emotional upset and thus upset to YOUR INCOME.

Amabel
12-03-2008, 05:59 PM
OMG! One whole week! Now I might have to spend some time time with my family. Whoa is me! Whoa is me!

What are you, a horse?

Mhykke
12-03-2008, 06:00 PM
No I dont as all other raids have named items in the end chests, where are the named items in teh shroud end chest?

Are you serious? I mean, are you for real?

Is it that tough to understand that large ingredients are the equivalent of raid loot, and the only place one is guaranteed to get one is part 5, and that's after you complete the quest and start on your timer?

Is it really difficult to see a similarity? (hint: don't say yes, you'll look worse than you already do.)

Chelsa
12-03-2008, 06:00 PM
For what ever reason people just love to rant.

Here is the info for the 1 millionanth time:


Originally Posted by The List
The following activities are considered to be violations of the Terms of Service:

* Using summoned items or creatures to trigger a game bug
* Purposely using any method that causes monsters or NPCs to become completely unresponsive.
* Bypassing a door, forcefield, barrier or other geometry which causes monsters or quest events on the other side to become unresponsive.
* Purposely causing monsters to become stuck or unresponsive on geometry.
* Using a game bug to remove any or all danger to yourself and/or party.
* Using any method to repeatedly loot a chest without repeating the quest objectives/content/monster encounters associated with the chest.
* Using any method to loot a chest or accept quest reward with any character who did not complete the related quest objective from start to finish.
* Bypassing a quest timer or flagging mechanic which allows you to complete a quest or objective more often than allowed.
* Any method of removing quest-only weapons, soul stones, or items from a quest instance and/or selling them on via the Marketplace or Auction House.
* Communicating details on how to exploit, or indicating quests which may be exploited in public. (Including in the LFM panel. Vague comments on your play style are welcome in the Who Panel or your Character Profile.)

For those who still do not understand, if Turbine wanted you to farm the last chest in Part 5 they would not have put a timer on the raid after completion. Bypassing raid timers has always been a exploit.

xman26
12-03-2008, 06:00 PM
For what ever reason people just love to rant.

Here is the info for the 1 millionanth time:



For those who still do not understand, if Turbine wanted you to farm the last chest in Part 5 they would not have put a timer on the raid after completion. Bypassing raid timers has always been a exploit.

Again we are back the the recall button. I'm sorry, but I dont not view this as an exploit even based on those rules.

Grizelda
12-03-2008, 06:03 PM
The Shroud raid has been temporarily closed due to widespread griefing of players by other players using a game exploit, and it has become broad, impacting too many users’ game play. The issue will be fixed and the quest will be reopened in the next game patch.

The Shroud is down because you are punishing those who are exploiting it/griefing others, however, what makes me livid about this is that you are punishing those who didn't participate/grief in the miss-use of the Raid also. We specifically banned our guild from using the exploit nor have I worried about those who have. This is a grade-school style punishment demonstrates your company's lack of ability to meet problems in a manner that is customer service oriented. It would have been simple to just take Death Pact back out of the game or disable it.

I have been playing this game for over two years and in all the time this game has been going I have not complained about the many possible issues available to complain about, but this one just topped it all.

For the most part, I enjoy the game and how it has evolved knowing you can't please all the people all the time, but as a business consultant I also know that there are fundamentals that must be followed to keep your customer base happy. Ignore these and in my experience you'll soon cease to exist...your choice I guess.

Mhykke
12-03-2008, 06:05 PM
If thats the case, BIND THE DAMN LARGES LIKE ALL OTHER RAID END NAMED GEAR!
Oh wait, they wont do that, it'll hurt the plat farmer they still haven't gotten rid of from teh game.


Quit the plat farmer irrelevant schtick.

You know that getting the chest in part 5 puts you on a raid timer. You know that getting the chest in part 5 without getting on the timer is against turbine's rules.

Cut it out. You're position is indefensible.

Gordo
12-03-2008, 06:09 PM
I wonder how Turbine is going to do NOW on that developer poll LOL?

Jondallar
12-03-2008, 06:10 PM
Curious wording... The Shroud is closed, not because of exploiting. But because Turbine couldn't get non-exploiters to stop griefing the exploiters?

I like the explanation though. It makes sense. If people exploit, it maybe makes them a little stronger and more likely to succeed. But it doesn't have much affect on other players. But if people grief others, it ties up GMs and makes it impossible for other players to get help with real issues.

I think you misunderstand.
Those using the exploit are doing so at the detriment of the other players in the raid. The quest progression gets broken and thus causes grief to those players who intended on finishing the quest.

Dymond
12-03-2008, 06:11 PM
Quit the plat farmer irrelevant schtick.

You know that getting the chest in part 5 puts you on a raid timer. You know that getting the chest in part 5 without getting on the timer is against turbine's rules.

Cut it out. You're position is indefensible.

AMEN! Where is that dead irrelevant horse when you need it. Once again for somebody who isn't doing it but knows people who are you sure are arguing alot.

crschoen
12-03-2008, 06:14 PM
So we had a situation were a small fraction of the players were using an exploit to get large ingredients and another small fraction were complaining about it. The solution conceived was to shut the whole thing down.

What was the worst possible outcome had you just left it alone for a week? A small fraction of the population would some more large ingredients. I don't really think this is so horrendous. I mean at some point we're all going to have large ingredients whether we exploit or not, right? The folks that were doing this would have probably gotten theirs more quickly and thus would have gotten bored and moved on to another game. The reaction of punishing the legitimate players only annoys the wrong customer base, the common players who have to grind through the raid 24+ times to complete one item.

ThrasherGT
12-03-2008, 06:14 PM
No leet loots? U R Suxorz!

Seriously though, glad it's getting fixed.

But, A WEEK?

All I can say is: D'OH!!!!!!!!!!!!

hydra_ex
12-03-2008, 06:15 PM
Edited for fear of being banned from forums

I might have said something I shouldn't have...

mehlinda
12-03-2008, 06:17 PM
Are you saying that Turbine implemented this spell to be used this way...LOL you people crack me up...

Sharzade
12-03-2008, 06:17 PM
I've been rather busy between real life and the new Refuge armour quests, so I've been neglecting Shroud runs lately.

Still, I'm very impressed that Turbine is saying No to bad conduct. I like that they're taking a strong stand until they get a patch for the problem. Just like in sports, fair play is better than bending the rules.

Nice work!

Sharz

Gorbie
12-03-2008, 06:17 PM
I have had more than my fair share of grief from Turbine in terms of how they run DDO. I have complained about the incessant downtime. It seems like their servers are down more than they are up. I have complained about Korthos Island. It is a poorly constructed, badly thought out prelim to the game that REALLY needs an escape hatch for those of us who HATE it and want to bypass it.

But this is the last straw. How can they even consider closing the Shroud, my favorite part of the game, and I think many other players' as well? Just because a few malcontents whine and snivel because some other players are using some kind of exploit? I don't know what the details of this exploit are, but if it bothers you all so much, just post "No Exploit" in your LFM or play a different Raid. Are you happy now? Your selfish complaining has ruined it not only for you but the rest of us as well.

I just can't believe they would close the Shroud instead of just taking out the offending spell. I don't know how the Divine Pact or whatever it is exploits the game, but if that's the problem, take out the spell, not the Raid! Jeez. What is wrong with Turbine anyway?

Slipher
12-03-2008, 06:18 PM
Why, oh why can all you people ever do is complain. Turbine has a good game, they run it well and just cause they're working on your pet quest/raid/run whatever, everyone else is not going to leave. If you can't occupy yourself for a week elsewhere in Stormreach, well maybe you should go cause your prob not someone fun to play with. It's not that real, if it is, well that sucks for you. Turbine, thanks for taking care of the issue.

Mhykke
12-03-2008, 06:18 PM
The dumb thing about all this is it's over maybe the MOST IDIOTIC EXPLOIT that exists.

Voluntarily skipping 2 chests in part 4 (which also contain larges and a chance at +2 tomes), plus a completion (which gets you closer to a +3 tome, or an essence of cleansing), in about the same amount of time that a normal shroud would take. Genius.


Anybody doing this exploit is a dope, pure and simple.

samagee
12-03-2008, 06:23 PM
The Shroud raid has been temporarily closed due to widespread griefing of players by other players using a game exploit, and it has become broad, impacting too many users’ game play. The issue will be fixed and the quest will be reopened in the next game patch.

It would be nice if a GM stepped into raids and put a flag on a player exploiting to make them vulnerable to every other players attacks in the raid.

Let's hope this fix doesn't screw it up. I have been waiting for my guild to start playing again before I go back in. I really would like to finish my greensteel item. However, I didn't want to run it with certain types of players.

narizue
12-03-2008, 06:30 PM
If people were getting the chests in pt5 without actually doing pt5, then i'd agree to the sxploit thing, but they aren't so i dont see it as an exploit. the chest are tied to pt5, completion is tied to completing all 5 pts. Why is this a hard concept to get.


Simple concept for you.

To advance in the shroud, as intended you must complete each part in order. Any action which allows you to advance to the next part of the shroud, without completion of the part you are on is clearly, for any intelligent person, capable of understanding the sequential nature of the quest an exploit.

And I guess that summoning pets was not exploit either eh?

Jondallar
12-03-2008, 06:30 PM
The dumb thing about all this is it's over maybe the MOST IDIOTIC EXPLOIT that exists.

Voluntarily skipping 2 chests in part 4 (which also contain larges and a chance at +2 tomes), plus a completion (which gets you closer to a +3 tome, or an essence of cleansing), in about the same amount of time that a normal shroud would take. Genius.


Anybody doing this exploit is a dope, pure and simple.

qft and to do it at the detriment to others is even more moronic.

Turbine says they can identify the guilty party...well Duh its the guy the other 11 ppl standing in the shroud that cant advance the quest are saying it is, also the same person(s) who dropped party but has an extra lg ingredient.

Vengenance
12-03-2008, 06:34 PM
Again we are back the the recall button. I'm sorry, but I dont not view this as an exploit even based on those rules.

How can anyone take you seriously? Look at your grammer, you can't use dont and not together in the same sentance. It's either don't or do not. By the way, it's pretty much unanimous that everyone here thinks you're a complete ^&*((). The last few posts of yours has in fact validated this fact.

Elaril
12-03-2008, 06:37 PM
How anyone can argue that this wasn't an exploit is beyond me. Want proof? Turbine just shut down 1/4th of the playable content.

Ollathir
12-03-2008, 06:38 PM
LOL. Got to hand to Argo... The LFM's atm are awsome.

dwelsh99
12-03-2008, 06:44 PM
Simplest solution….
Get rid of the ‘penalty box’… problem solved.

Elaril
12-03-2008, 06:45 PM
Simplest solution….
Get rid of the ‘penalty box’… problem solved.

Ok, would you like fries with your elimination of the only challenge in the quest?

Junts
12-03-2008, 06:49 PM
If people were getting the chests in pt5 without actually doing pt5, then i'd agree to the sxploit thing, but they aren't so i dont see it as an exploit. the chest are tied to pt5, completion is tied to completing all 5 pts. Why is this a hard concept to get.

because turbine clearly sees it otherwise; the pt 5 chests are the completion chests, getting them without completing is cheating.

Alshatar
12-03-2008, 06:52 PM
Hopefully during this downtime they'll fix if you finish out you don't go to meridia.. you go to Korthos Island.. Luckily most of my toons can port, except for the cleric..

Aurie - Officer of Stormlords on Tharashk.. erm I mean Thelanis

moops
12-03-2008, 06:52 PM
I run this probably 20 times a week and have no clue what the exploit is. . .Seems silly to punish the vast majority for a few people.

I had guildies signing on tonight for the first time a a couple of weeks just to Shroud. . .

On my guilds website Shroud was voted most popular Raid, and listed in many peoples favorite quests. Taking it down for a week or more, will only see our population decline more.