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Irongutz2000
12-02-2008, 12:25 PM
Why can't we have power attack that applies to bows? I think that would be a great addition to ranged combat, make it the same as power attack -5 to hit +5 to damage. What do u think?

Turial
12-02-2008, 12:28 PM
Would be nice.

TheMoose
12-02-2008, 12:33 PM
Dont forget repeaters

Aspenor
12-02-2008, 12:37 PM
Dont forget repeaters

that makes....no sense at all....

how do you shoot a crossbow "harder"

Irongutz2000
12-02-2008, 12:38 PM
I could see it applied to throwing weapons an bows but.........like asp said how can u shoot a crossbow harder?

Aspenor
12-02-2008, 12:41 PM
well i have found this:

POWER THROW
You have learned how to hurl weapons to deadly effect.
Prerequisite: Str 13, Brutal Throw, Power Attack.
Benefit: On your turn, before making any attack rolls,
you can choose to subtract a number from all thrown
weapon attack rolls and add the same number to all
thrown weapon damage rolls. This number may not
exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attack
rolls and the bonus on damage rolls applies until your
next turn.
Special: A fighter may select Power Throw as one of
his fighter bonus feats.

still looking for an archery version, i believe there is one called Powerful Shot but I can't find it atm.

Ciaran
12-02-2008, 12:41 PM
that makes....no sense at all....

how do you shoot a crossbow "harder"

Uhh...put your hip into it? :D

GhostNull
12-02-2008, 12:42 PM
DDO Europe has it...

Ranged Power Attack (2nd feat down) (http://www.ddo-europe.com/feats.php?view=all&letter=R)

It'd be simple, yet effective for bow users.

wamjratl1
12-02-2008, 12:42 PM
that makes....no sense at all....

how do you shoot a crossbow "harder"

Grit your teeth and squint real hard....

Irongutz2000
12-02-2008, 12:48 PM
DDO Europe has it...

Ranged Power Attack (2nd feat down) (http://www.ddo-europe.com/feats.php?view=all&letter=R)

It'd be simple, yet effective for bow users.

They have it an we don't.................isn't it the same game...............***?

Silverjade
12-02-2008, 12:50 PM
They have it an we don't.................isn't it the same game...............***?

From my understanding they don't have it its just there.

vtecfiend99
12-02-2008, 12:51 PM
that makes....no sense at all....

how do you shoot a crossbow "harder"

you squint REALLY... REALLY... HARD!

Aerendil
12-02-2008, 12:55 PM
/places some oil of impact on some crossbow bolts.

There ya go!!


On a serious note, though, I'd be all for Power Shot (or "Ranged Power Attack" if that sounds prettier).
I'd also be all for some enhancements available to Deepwood Snipers that augment it.

Vanda
12-02-2008, 12:59 PM
that makes....no sense at all....

how do you shoot a crossbow "harder"

Turn it sideways and shoot gangsta' style. (I gunna pop a bolt in you arse!)

Laith
12-02-2008, 01:00 PM
DDO Europe has it...our old compendium had it listed too. it listed tons of things that didn't actually make it live. mostly armors and weapons though from what i recall.

now we have this new one that's actually updated from stuff that's ingame.

GhostNull
12-02-2008, 01:07 PM
From my understanding they don't have it its just there.

Ah, well I didn't know. Still, that feat would be nice to have...

Missing_Minds
12-02-2008, 01:09 PM
No, what would be more correct is to remove rangers bow strength from the class.

Make "bow strength" a property of bows that are a composite.

Now make it possible to add the "composite" attribute to any bow via crafting/stones of change rituals.

crossbows are stuck at their current values. They have a wider threat range to indicate easier aiming compared to bows.

Irongutz2000
12-02-2008, 01:14 PM
Ya, ummm...no thats the worst idea i have ever heard , "lets make ranged combat even worse so we have to look for composite bows, or put them in the device". Give me a break dude.

Lonewolfe
12-02-2008, 01:17 PM
that makes....no sense at all....

how do you shoot a crossbow "harder"

Agreed. However, how do you shoot a bow harder? You can throw an axe harder, therefore, doing more dmg. But a bow? It really is very similar to the xbow. You can only max the power of the bow by pulling back to its limits. I couldn't argue with a bow doing more dmg because it needs a higher str to pull it back to its limits, but then we are talking about the bow, not a feat for using a bow.

Irongutz2000
12-02-2008, 01:30 PM
Agreed. However, how do you shoot a bow harder? You can throw an axe harder, therefore, doing more dmg. But a bow? It really is very similar to the xbow. You can only max the power of the bow by pulling back to its limits. I couldn't argue with a bow doing more dmg because it needs a higher str to pull it back to its limits, but then we are talking about the bow, not a feat for using a bow.
Good point but, this is ddo, no one asks how a wizard can shoot a fireball out of his hands at will, he just does. I just think that this would be a good addition to the game was all it doesn't have to make perfect RL sense here guys :P

Emili
12-02-2008, 01:42 PM
Agreed. However, how do you shoot a bow harder? You can throw an axe harder, therefore, doing more dmg. But a bow? It really is very similar to the xbow. You can only max the power of the bow by pulling back to its limits. I couldn't argue with a bow doing more dmg because it needs a higher str to pull it back to its limits, but then we are talking about the bow, not a feat for using a bow.

I suppose you can use higher strength bows... ie.) Odysseus' bow in the Oddesy which no ne of the suitors were able to draw back it's string?

Vivanto
12-02-2008, 01:43 PM
DDO Europe has it...

Ranged Power Attack (2nd feat down) (http://www.ddo-europe.com/feats.php?view=all&letter=R)

It'd be simple, yet effective for bow users.

No, that only shows that Codemasters still site is soooo outdated, we don't have it. (comming from EU)

Vivanto
12-02-2008, 01:47 PM
No, what would be more correct is to remove rangers bow strength from the class.

Make "bow strength" a property of bows that are a composite.

Now make it possible to add the "composite" attribute to any bow via crafting/stones of change rituals.

crossbows are stuck at their current values. They have a wider threat range to indicate easier aiming compared to bows.

That would reflect the PnP rules nicely, however I doubt ppl would like it. There was never a real reason to use/keep composite bows in place of normal ones so they might miss out on the sets (doubt crafting would make them composite).
What would be just a really easy fix, make bow strenght available for every class to take.

Docta_PoPo
12-02-2008, 01:50 PM
Agreed. However, how do you shoot a bow harder? You can throw an axe harder, therefore, doing more dmg. But a bow? It really is very similar to the xbow. You can only max the power of the bow by pulling back to its limits. I couldn't argue with a bow doing more dmg because it needs a higher str to pull it back to its limits, but then we are talking about the bow, not a feat for using a bow.

You can increase a bow's resistance. TO make it harder to pull back and will make it fire more powerful.
For example if a 50 pound resistant is becoming to easy for you and is not getting the power you desire, or if its not piercing your target good enough you could increase the resistance to 60 pounds.

Aspenor
12-02-2008, 01:52 PM
That would reflect the PnP rules nicely, however I doubt ppl would like it. There was never a real reason to use/keep composite bows in place of normal ones so they might miss out on the sets (doubt crafting would make them composite).
What would be just a really easy fix, make bow strenght available for every class to take.

actually it would go against the rules, not reflect them "nicely."

In PnP there is a type of bow called Mighty that allows a non ranger to add STR bonus to damage.

Composite bows have higher range.

krud
12-02-2008, 01:56 PM
that makes....no sense at all....

how do you shoot a crossbow "harder"

tighten the strings.

shores11
12-02-2008, 02:01 PM
Agreed. However, how do you shoot a bow harder? You can throw an axe harder, therefore, doing more dmg. But a bow? It really is very similar to the xbow. You can only max the power of the bow by pulling back to its limits. I couldn't argue with a bow doing more dmg because it needs a higher str to pull it back to its limits, but then we are talking about the bow, not a feat for using a bow.

Throwing an axe or firing a bow requires two things to make it do more damage that a novice to intermediate level bowman or axe thrower.


Increased Strength
Experience


Having increased strength alone will not do it as it takes experience to know how to properly throw or fire a bow. Not every person (character) would be able to pull their bow string as far back as the next person and deliver an accurate shot with the experience to know how to deliver it with maximum damage.

I would suggest this to be only a ranger feat as they are the class that has years of experience and dedication to the bow. Now if another class takes a ranged specialization that would be something to debate.

My suggestion would be:


Ranger: Level 14 feat with a minimum of 24 strength
Another class: ranged specialization, 24 strength, level 16


My suggestions are just an attempt to place some requirements to get these abilitys.

Crossbows can not be fired any harder than they already are so this would not apply to crossbows.

Vivanto
12-02-2008, 02:02 PM
actually it would go against the rules, not reflect them "nicely."

In PnP there is a type of bow called Mighty that allows a non ranger to add STR bonus to damage.

Composite bows have higher range.

What I meant was that it would depend on weapon not by some made up feat.

Hambo
12-02-2008, 02:06 PM
that makes....no sense at all....

how do you shoot a crossbow "harder"

If you watch old westerns or crime movies from the thirties you'll see the shooters "push" the guns as they pull the triggers.

Anyone with a proper obfuscation of physics knows this makes the bullets go faster and hit harder... it should work the same for any projectile weapon I would imagine. :D

Aspenor
12-02-2008, 02:07 PM
What I meant was that it would depend on weapon not by some made up feat.

are you talking about the OP or the Core Ranger feat Bow Strength?

I don't think it'd be a good idea to have Ranged Power Attack (not a made up feat, I am pretty sure it exists somewhere) on a weapon. It's an ability, not a magical item quality.

Vivanto
12-02-2008, 02:15 PM
are you talking about the OP or the Core Ranger feat Bow Strength?

I don't think it'd be a good idea to have Ranged Power Attack (not a made up feat, I am pretty sure it exists somewhere) on a weapon. It's an ability, not a magical item quality.

No no no no, the post I answered from Missing Minds was about moving Bow Strenght from feats to weapons. I'd much prefer if the feat was simply allowed for everyone to take else my archer with lots of combined composite and normal longbows would be a sad sad panda :)

Not sure yet on the ranged power attack, would be pretty much limited if it's available only on a few weapons, possibly making it useless anyway.
Would you prefer your mineral2/lightning2 bow or even the Unwavering Ardency vs non-dr without RPA or some gimpy +5 single elemental bow with PA?

frugal_gourmet
12-02-2008, 02:28 PM
Mechanically, it's a fine idea and not unbalanced.

If you were to aim a bow at a more vulernable spot, it would conceivably do more damage. Just base your title and concept off that.

Lonewolfe
12-02-2008, 02:49 PM
Throwing an axe or firing a bow requires two things to make it do more damage that a novice to intermediate level bowman or axe thrower.


Increased Strength
Experience


Having increased strength alone will not do it as it takes experience to know how to properly throw or fire a bow. Not every person (character) would be able to pull their bow string as far back as the next person and deliver an accurate shot with the experience to know how to deliver it with maximum damage.

I would suggest this to be only a ranger feat as they are the class that has years of experience and dedication to the bow. Now if another class takes a ranged specialization that would be something to debate.

My suggestion would be:


Ranger: Level 14 feat with a minimum of 24 strength
Another class: ranged specialization, 24 strength, level 16


My suggestions are just an attempt to place some requirements to get these abilitys.

Crossbows can not be fired any harder than they already are so this would not apply to crossbows.

With all due respect, experience has nothing to do with dmg. It has to do with your ability to hit, but not dmg. If I have no talent at throwing, but I can throw very hard.....I may not hit much, but if I do score a hit, it will do the same dmg as someone that hits everytime and throws as hard as I. You could argue that a rog's sneak attack would take into account experience of "where" to hit to do the most dmg, but that is off topic.

I believe that it is assumed that everyone that uses a bow can pull it all the way back just like everyone can swing a sword. They may not be proficient (accurate). Just like my wiz that can use a holy burst of pg heavy pick. She is not proficient, but can still swing it. Especially when I have made a yard gnome out of something and get auto crit.

Finally, the crossbow is no different than a bow. You can't pull it back further than its limits, period. So a xbow and a bow are equal. Rangers already get bow str, so why should they get another power attack for dmg. I agree, with this dps world that DDO has created with the insane hp's of the baddies, bow users are left behind when not using many shot, but this doesn't look like an answer to me. A shorter cool down on manyshot would sound better to me. Nothing overpowering, but shorter.

Vivanto
12-02-2008, 02:53 PM
Finally, the crossbow is no different than a bow. You can't pull it back further than its limits, period. So a xbow and a bow are equal.

Not sure it's the correct term in english, but with a pulley and crank everyone can pull a crossbow just the same way, regardless of strenght.

Lonewolfe
12-02-2008, 02:59 PM
Not sure it's the correct term in english, but with a pulley and crank everyone can pull a crossbow just the same way, regardless of strenght.

Not every xbow is set with a crank. There are types that you pull back with a lever or handle. Just saying, that you can either operate the bow or you can't. You might not be able to hit the broad side of a barn with it, but anyone in DDO can use a bow. You can make the weapon more powerful, but that comes from the weapon, not a feat or person.

Slink
12-02-2008, 03:05 PM
The biggest problem I have with ranged combat is the wider crit range of crossbows over convetional ranged weapon selections. perhaps with light/heavy and great crossbows I can marginally understand. With the inclusion of repeaters is just de-de-deee. Repeater builds are essentially a ranger with multishot, fulltime. I understand this is just a game, but anyone with common knowledge of the premise of repeating crossbows(they did/do actually exist) would know exactly what their purpose was and traditionally speaking what kind of damage they could really do(hardly any, if they even hit at all). I have sought to build a true ranger that utilizes longbows in this game since the very beginning and ranged combat is great for about 20 secs at a time. The imbalance is just insanity in this game. Barbarians get rage for how long? and there is no cooldown with a lesser restore pot. The direction this game is headed is not what I had hoped for by any sense. Dex fighters are still top dog with stat damage. Greensteel items are evil. Loot sucks. and almost every ranger is relegated to melee.

nuf said

frugal_gourmet
12-02-2008, 03:08 PM
With all due respect, experience has nothing to do with dmg.

Of course it does. Skill and accuracy has everything to do with damage.

Irongutz2000
12-02-2008, 03:10 PM
Throwing an axe or firing a bow requires two things to make it do more damage that a novice to intermediate level bowman or axe thrower.


Increased Strength
Experience


Having increased strength alone will not do it as it takes experience to know how to properly throw or fire a bow. Not every person (character) would be able to pull their bow string as far back as the next person and deliver an accurate shot with the experience to know how to deliver it with maximum damage.

I would suggest this to be only a ranger feat as they are the class that has years of experience and dedication to the bow. Now if another class takes a ranged specialization that would be something to debate.

My suggestion would be:


Ranger: Level 14 feat with a minimum of 24 strength
Another class: ranged specialization, 24 strength, level 16


My suggestions are just an attempt to place some requirements to get these abilitys.

Crossbows can not be fired any harder than they already are so this would not apply to crossbows.
I agree that this should be a ranger only feat :)

Irongutz2000
12-02-2008, 03:38 PM
I really don't understand why some ppl r agaist this, how many ppl acutally have a ranged ranger, an wish that did a little more damage, I for one. This will not hurt the game in any way, unbalance it in anyway.......so i am really not understanding why some ppl r agaist this, this is a great idea to add a little more damage to ranged combat.


As it stands ranged combat is no where near mellee an with this feat added, it can inch just a little closer, an make ranging a little more viable.

Lonewolfe
12-02-2008, 03:49 PM
Of course it does. Skill and accuracy has everything to do with damage.

Care to make a point by explaining, or should I just take your word for it?

With the exception of sneak attack, dmg is set by type of weapon, crit range, str mod's, other feats and the elemental/alignment dmg of the weapon. Skill and accuracy in DDO as it works, has to do with to-hit, not dmg. That is an entirely different mechanism. Anyone with or w/out a feat can use any weapon made. Your to-hit will suffer, but not the dmg.

redoubt
12-02-2008, 04:21 PM
Agreed. However, how do you shoot a bow harder? You can throw an axe harder, therefore, doing more dmg. But a bow? It really is very similar to the xbow. You can only max the power of the bow by pulling back to its limits. I couldn't argue with a bow doing more dmg because it needs a higher str to pull it back to its limits, but then we are talking about the bow, not a feat for using a bow.

With a compound bow you can increase the tension on the limbs.

The connection would be that anyone good with power attack and a bow could put some increased tension on the bow and then work with the higher power. Or lessen it if more accuracy is needed.

redoubt
12-02-2008, 04:28 PM
Throwing an axe or firing a bow requires two things to make it do more damage that a novice to intermediate level bowman or axe thrower.


Increased Strength
Experience


Having increased strength alone will not do it as it takes experience to know how to properly throw or fire a bow. Not every person (character) would be able to pull their bow string as far back as the next person and deliver an accurate shot with the experience to know how to deliver it with maximum damage.

I would suggest this to be only a ranger feat as they are the class that has years of experience and dedication to the bow. Now if another class takes a ranged specialization that would be something to debate.

Please, for the love of archery, no. Rangers are rangers. There are many classes from which archers may emerge.

The feat should just be power attack. Let it apply. The dex requirement for hitting anything will prevent abuse. Characters not spec'd for ranged will not suddenly start picking up bows and killing everything that way.

Dex/finesse builds cannot use powerattack on finess weapons (right?) so no overpowering there either.

My suggestion would be:


Ranger: Level 14 feat with a minimum of 24 strength
Another class: ranged specialization, 24 strength, level 16


My suggestions are just an attempt to place some requirements to get these abilitys.

Crossbows can not be fired any harder than they already are so this would not apply to crossbows.


24 str is crazy high for a feat requirement. Only those who start with 18, take four level ups and a plus 2 tome get the feat. Sorry, friend, but that is a bad place for a prereq.

Just make power attack (the one in game) apply to bows.

Missing_Minds
12-02-2008, 05:15 PM
actually it would go against the rules, not reflect them "nicely."

In PnP there is a type of bow called Mighty that allows a non ranger to add STR bonus to damage.

Composite bows have higher range.

Asp, in PnP, no class gets STR bonus to damage with bows.

And while yes, it was called Mighty, in this game why bother? Composite just had greater range than non composite which in this game means absolutely squat. So lets make composite actually mean something.

Also, in PnP, it capped at +5 (or was it +4?). Granted I'm certain DMs could allow for more.

frugal_gourmet
12-02-2008, 05:26 PM
Care to make a point by explaining, or should I just take your word for it?

With the exception of sneak attack, dmg is set by type of weapon, crit range, str mod's, other feats and the elemental/alignment dmg of the weapon. Skill and accuracy in DDO as it works, has to do with to-hit, not dmg. That is an entirely different mechanism. Anyone with or w/out a feat can use any weapon made. Your to-hit will suffer, but not the dmg.

Oh, I didn't realize you were making a game point. I thought you were making a real-life point. Clearly, being more accurate in real life with a ranged weapon increases the damage you do. From rocks to guns.


In any case, as anyone can see ... power attack for bows would not be at all bad for game balance. In fact, it would increase it. As well as fun. You can easily write in whatever rationale for a power attack type feat you want. The point is it would be a fine addition to the game.

Lonewolfe
12-03-2008, 08:46 AM
With a compound bow you can increase the tension on the limbs.

The connection would be that anyone good with power attack and a bow could put some increased tension on the bow and then work with the higher power. Or lessen it if more accuracy is needed.

Although that is true, that would be all about the bow, not a feat. Besides, DDO doesn't have compound bows with complex pulley systems, so the point is mute.

Lonewolfe
12-03-2008, 09:02 AM
Oh, I didn't realize you were making a game point. I thought you were making a real-life point. Clearly, being more accurate in real life with a ranged weapon increases the damage you do. From rocks to guns.


In any case, as anyone can see ... power attack for bows would not be at all bad for game balance. In fact, it would increase it. As well as fun. You can easily write in whatever rationale for a power attack type feat you want. The point is it would be a fine addition to the game.

I see your point and agree that ranged combat while "not" using manyshot is weak. You are basically lowered to paralyzing, w/p or someother debuff/stat dmg role as the game stands. I have an old school dex ranger (since it was created at the start of the game) and he would love more dmg with a bow, since that is his weapon of choice. Even with the crafted items, bow users seem to be in the same bunch as others before them. DDO has created this monster, and I suppose they will lead us where ever we will follow.

BurnerD
12-03-2008, 09:09 AM
I see your point and agree that ranged combat while "not" using manyshot is weak. You are basically lowered to paralyzing, w/p or someother debuff/stat dmg role as the game stands. I have an old school dex ranger (since it was created at the start of the game) and he would love more dmg with a bow, since that is his weapon of choice. Even with the crafted items, bow users seem to be in the same bunch as others before them. DDO has created this monster, and I suppose they will lead us where ever we will follow.

I'll support his point.. you are correct about throwing and axe harder should increase damage, but maybe the experience portion of it is throwing the axe so it always hits blade first? I understand this is not a game issue, but a RL situation. An experienced axe thrower getting the blade to sink into you would do more damage than an inexperienced one throwing an axe where the handle hits you instead....

From a gameplay standpoint my argument is meaningless since the axes always hit blade first :)

Draclaud
12-03-2008, 09:13 AM
How about just increasing the ROF? I know it's been beat to death but that seems to be the fix that never gets done...

Dracolich
12-03-2008, 11:53 AM
I would gladly get rid of my "Ranger bow STR" for an increase in ROF to match melee. Sure give me that all day long. That would be an even trade in my eyes.

RigorAdar
12-03-2008, 12:39 PM
Oh, I didn't realize you were making a game point. I thought you were making a real-life point. Clearly, being more accurate in real life with a ranged weapon increases the damage you do. From rocks to guns.


In any case, as anyone can see ... power attack for bows would not be at all bad for game balance. In fact, it would increase it. As well as fun. You can easily write in whatever rationale for a power attack type feat you want. The point is it would be a fine addition to the game.

This is true only in the sense of dmg over time. If there is a single target the novice archer could get lucky and land a single shot in the most damaging location. The expert will be able to do it over and over again.

That is represented in the game by Imp Crit Ranged, giving you more of a chance at a maximum damage shot over an archer without it.

Ganak
12-03-2008, 01:52 PM
Here's a vote for more ranged feats:

Blind shot -
Combat archery
Deadeye **** - add wis bonus to damage.
Improved manyshot
Improved rapid shot

RobbinB
12-03-2008, 02:44 PM
I don't see why ranged power attack couldn't be applied to xbows. The "power" could simply come from targeting a specific area that is more difficult to hit but more susceptible, hence you trade some of your attack bonus for additional damage.

Aerendil
12-03-2008, 02:50 PM
Here's a vote for more ranged feats:

Blind shot -
Combat archery
Deadeye **** - add wis bonus to damage.
Improved manyshot
Improved rapid shot


Some of those are epic feats (21+).

As for Deadeye Shot - Oh yes, please. Let's give even more benefits to the Monk splashed Rangers...

Irongutz2000
12-04-2008, 10:06 AM
Ya like monk splashes need another boost :P

riexau
02-25-2009, 12:13 PM
I support this thread. Better ranged combat ftw.

Uska
02-25-2009, 12:41 PM
Dont forget repeaters

makes no sense whatsoever for repeaters as str doesnt affect them

Gunga
02-25-2009, 12:48 PM
that makes....no sense at all....

how do you shoot a crossbow "harder"

It's all in the eyelid and furrowed brow.