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View Full Version : Kill counts: I've changed My mind



ThrasherGT
11-26-2008, 09:06 AM
In the past 24 hours, I've been thinking alot about kill counts. It seems that most feel that more stats would be good for the game, so propose the following:

1. Add in more stats including: deaths, damage dealt/ received, healing given/recieved, assists, stat damage kills, "sniped kills" (where killing blow was achieved with a low % of total damage), Fastest completion time, etc.

2. Create a system where the leaders in each category receive bonus XP based on certain criteria i.e. %of damage dealt, % of total kills, lowest healing recieved (for melee), etc.

3. Post a leaderboard outside each quest with a top 10 or 25 for each category shown, which resets monthly. Also add in leaderboards in all major areas of the game (Harbor, Marketplace, all houses, Gianthold, Orchard, Meridia, Reaver's Refuge) where there would be All-Time records for all quests, charts would sortable by favor givers like quests.

3a. Have prizes for Monthly and all time record holders. Perhaps create a trophy system, or hand out unique items, or even Plat.

4. Create weekly and/or monthly Tournaments based on different quests each time. These could initially be based on completion time (of course the timer would have to be upgraded to add in seconds) but could be based on other things as well. This would have the added benefit of having players run oft overlooked quests (For prizes, of course).

5. Post weekly/ monthly/ all-time leaderboards here in the forum in their own section.

Those that do not care about such things (like Me) could simply ignore them. Those who DO care would get a bunch of satisfaction from adding these in. Plus, it greatly increases the replay value of DDO, and gives players that extra reason to log on when all their characters are capped/ equipped/ loaded down with Plat.

Contests/ Tournaments could seriously help DDO gain a larger Playerbase, I only see this as a win/win.................

Kistilan
11-26-2008, 09:15 AM
Yeah know...

There's another thread where a lot of these suggestions were made by people (myself included when I say by people). :rolleyes:

However, I like the idea of tournaments that are Turbine Sponsored IE we players do not provide the prizes for once, and the loot is FAT. Either exuberant amounts of plat for 1st through 10th ('cuz let's face it, everyone and their mom is gonna sign up, so we can afford to have 10 places easily), or have some hefty prizes like +4 through +1 tomes (unbound) plus paralyzers, cloaks of displacement, vorpals, banishers, greater banes, Sword of Tyberius (Holy Avenger?!?), Greater Positive/Negative Energy Guard Mithril/Adamantine armors, etc!

The loots for the monthly tournament (or bi-monthly tournaments, say the 1st and the 15th of every month?) would be able to be custom loots, some not even found in regular quests but equally if not more desireable.

The question is, how to make a tournament where everyone has a chance. That is the question. Teams? Free For All? One on One? The Tournament should last 12 hours where rankings are determined based upon opponents faced as well as wins vs losses. That way, 1 guy can't log in, defeat 1 guy that was ranked high, and log out claiming victory.

I would also recommend most weaponry/armors if prizes were awarded to be bound, so we would have little to no plat farmer entrants among other things.

Issip
11-26-2008, 11:51 AM
No, no no no no no no!!

You can't evaluate strategy through statistics, and any attempt to do so results in people tailoring their play to support stats - hence greatly exasperating the issues people are already complaining about due to the idiots who think the kill count is the scoreboard and killing more mobs in a DDO quest makes them Uber so they ignore strategy and cause problems and party wipes trying to prove that they are the most Uber.

You add more stats you add more stupid behavior.

I never played PnP with a scoreboard, it was always a "work together" game - one player may be awesome, but that is appreciated when the party succeeds, not because of some stat sheet.

Nothing personal, but worst idea ever...

Coldest
11-26-2008, 01:22 PM
No, no no no no no no!!

You can't evaluate strategy through statistics, and any attempt to do so results in people tailoring their play to support stats - hence greatly exasperating the issues people are already complaining about due to the idiots who think the kill count is the scoreboard and killing more mobs in a DDO quest makes them Uber so they ignore strategy and cause problems and party wipes trying to prove that they are the most Uber.

You add more stats you add more stupid behavior.

I never played PnP with a scoreboard, it was always a "work together" game - one player may be awesome, but that is appreciated when the party succeeds, not because of some stat sheet./Agreed, up to this point.

Nothing personal, but worst idea ever...See below:

The time I leapt off a 2 story building in my cowboy boots resulting in 2 partially torn achilles' tendons - worse

Delt
11-26-2008, 01:32 PM
No, no no no no no no!!

You can't evaluate strategy through statistics, and any attempt to do so results in people tailoring their play to support stats - hence greatly exasperating the issues people are already complaining about due to the idiots who think the kill count is the scoreboard and killing more mobs in a DDO quest makes them Uber so they ignore strategy and cause problems and party wipes trying to prove that they are the most Uber.

You add more stats you add more stupid behavior.

I never played PnP with a scoreboard, it was always a "work together" game - one player may be awesome, but that is appreciated when the party succeeds, not because of some stat sheet.

Nothing personal, but worst idea ever...

DDO isn't PnP and it never will be. The sooner a handful of forum goers realize and accept this, the happier everyone will be.

That said, wasn't the 4th edition Online interface project supposed to be released by now? Anyone know how it turned out? I know plenty of people don't like 4.0, but I'm more curious how their MMO-lite program came together.

Kerrn_Siff
11-26-2008, 01:33 PM
No, no no no no no no!!

You can't evaluate strategy through statistics, and any attempt to do so results in people tailoring their play to support stats - hence greatly exasperating the issues people are already complaining about due to the idiots who think the kill count is the scoreboard and killing more mobs in a DDO quest makes them Uber so they ignore strategy and cause problems and party wipes trying to prove that they are the most Uber.

You add more stats you add more stupid behavior.

I never played PnP with a scoreboard, it was always a "work together" game - one player may be awesome, but that is appreciated when the party succeeds, not because of some stat sheet.

Nothing personal, but worst idea ever...

This is not PnP. This is a computer game. Stats are important and more stats would be a very useful tool.

If people ignore them, or are idiots about them then that is their issue.

Dungnmaster001
11-26-2008, 01:42 PM
DDO isn't PnP and it never will be. The sooner a handful of forum goers realize and accept this, the happier everyone will be.

That said, wasn't the 4th edition Online interface project supposed to be released by now? Anyone know how it turned out? I know plenty of people don't like 4.0, but I'm more curious how their MMO-lite program came together.

No it's not released yet. I'm thinking it will be sometime mid to late 09 before it sees beta even. They are releasing tools as they are developed in stages. Currently in beta is a character generator. Next up I think is the Character Visualizer that lets you create a virtual miniature (this has to be done before the virtual tabletop since they kind of go hand in hand). The tabletop program will probably be the last thing released since it's the most complex of the software tools they're making.

Randolf_Drake
11-26-2008, 03:38 PM
I am the best barrel and crate breaker in the game.

My statistics should say so! :P

Delt
11-26-2008, 03:41 PM
No it's not released yet. I'm thinking it will be sometime mid to late 09 before it sees beta even. They are releasing tools as they are developed in stages. Currently in beta is a character generator. Next up I think is the Character Visualizer that lets you create a virtual miniature (this has to be done before the virtual tabletop since they kind of go hand in hand). The tabletop program will probably be the last thing released since it's the most complex of the software tools they're making.

Wow, really huh? Seems like I've heard of it's existence for at least over a year now and it doesn't sound like much progress was made.

Thanks for the info.

Memnir
11-26-2008, 04:00 PM
I'm sure they'll get right on this, because the PvP Leaderboards turned out to be such a smashing triumph of design, timely implementation, and coding ingenuity.

....right?


And I'm positive that they'd be able to hold the weekly/monthly prize give-a-ways, too. I mean, this game has such a stellar track record of Live Events going off without a single hitch, that I'm sure they'd be able to hold a weekly one devoted to a singular aspect of the game across all servers without a problem.

...right?

Falco_Easts
11-26-2008, 04:35 PM
DDO isn't PnP and it never will be. The sooner a handful of forum goers realize and accept this, the happier everyone will be.

DDO isn't your standard MMO and it never will be. The sooner a handful of forum goers realize and accept this, the happier everyone will be.

Try to remember what the DD in DDO stands for. You know, that small little thing like arguably the most succesful RPG ever.

Delt
11-26-2008, 04:48 PM
DDO isn't your standard MMO and it never will be. The sooner a handful of forum goers realize and accept this, the happier everyone will be.

Try to remember what the DD in DDO stands for. You know, that small little thing like arguably the most succesful RPG ever.

What is a "standard" MMO exactly...do you even know? DDO is a MMO, period. It has fundemental roots in D&D, sure, but cannot possibly play in the same way as PnP. WoW has it's roots in a strategy game, but last I checked the MMO version plays a tad different...

The gameplay mechanic in DDO is "an action game", which is the reason we all have inflated HP, SP, etc. It is the reason feats need tweaking on implementation, BAB is different and some skills/classes are useless/less effective. PnP is NOT an action game...DDO is.

It's fun to envision a game that plays out like PnP. Where you can have multiple paths to a quest conclusion, skills are useful, and the entire game is less twitchy and instead more cerebral...but that dream isn't DDO, so save your throwing my own words back at me and pretending you made a sensible point.

CrimsonEagle
11-26-2008, 05:06 PM
DDO isn't your standard MMO and it never will be. The sooner a handful of forum goers realize and accept this, the happier everyone will be.

Try to remember what the DD in DDO stands for. You know, that small little thing like arguably the most succesful RPG ever.

There are just too many things that make this game only very loosly based on P&P D&D.

This game is not D&D. Sorry. This does not mean I do not like the game. As far as I'm concerned, this MMO has the best combat interface out there, thus it keeps my attention from wandering towards other games.

The difference between DDO and D&D can not be helped.

Things that are different.

The ability to run the same quests over and over again.
The lack of key spells for spell casters. Take a look at some of the spells that can and should be implemented.
Nearly unlimited spell points.
Spells and tactics used in game which exploit poor AI
The broken enhancment system
The Monty Hall loot system
The overall grind. Grind for xp. Grind for favor. Grind for loot.

The list can go on if you like.

I do however agree with you that DDO is not your standard MMO in many ways, but it is not D&D, can not be D&D, and will never be D&D, no matter what is in the game title.

And this is comming from someone who does still enjoy the game.

Crimson.

cardmj1
11-26-2008, 05:26 PM
I still think they should build an arena in Stormreach or House D and hold tournaments there. Either pvp or player vs. npc. If all you uber l33ters really want to show your egos, then let the rest us sit in the stands and watch just how uber you really are (or aren't).

Issip
11-26-2008, 05:33 PM
The time I leapt off a 2 story building in my cowboy boots resulting in 2 partially torn achilles' tendons - worse

I stand corrected, I have a habit of over-exaggerating... I once decided I would take a short cut to save a 5 minute swim by climbing the face of a 50' cliff, ended up in the hospital and should have been dead, so it wouldn't be the worst idea ever, I've had worse ones in my day myself.

Bad Idea

:)

query
11-26-2008, 05:44 PM
THIS IS NOT PnP! THIS IS AN ONLINE GAME! STOP COMPARING RULES THAT WERE ALREADY MODIFIED TO RUN IN DDO! INCLUDING HOW GROUP SOLO AND PVP WORK HERE AND NOT IN PnP!

That is all.

(It seems this was said HOW many times in this thread...hope somebody notices this as my lettering appears small.....)

Raiderone
11-27-2008, 11:17 AM
You lost me at... I've changed my mind...:D

Thorzian
11-27-2008, 11:38 AM
Yeah know...

There's another thread where a lot of these suggestions were made by people (myself included when I say by people). :rolleyes:

However, I like the idea of tournaments that are Turbine Sponsored IE we players do not provide the prizes for once, and the loot is FAT. Either exuberant amounts of plat for 1st through 10th ('cuz let's face it, everyone and their mom is gonna sign up, so we can afford to have 10 places easily), or have some hefty prizes like +4 through +1 tomes (unbound) plus paralyzers, cloaks of displacement, vorpals, banishers, greater banes, Sword of Tyberius (Holy Avenger?!?), Greater Positive/Negative Energy Guard Mithril/Adamantine armors, etc!

The loots for the monthly tournament (or bi-monthly tournaments, say the 1st and the 15th of every month?) would be able to be custom loots, some not even found in regular quests but equally if not more desireable.

The question is, how to make a tournament where everyone has a chance. That is the question. Teams? Free For All? One on One? The Tournament should last 12 hours where rankings are determined based upon opponents faced as well as wins vs losses. That way, 1 guy can't log in, defeat 1 guy that was ranked high, and log out claiming victory.

I would also recommend most weaponry/armors if prizes were awarded to be bound, so we would have little to no plat farmer entrants among other things.


yer serious?? ok first off if u want the plat farmers out then bound items are the only way to go. you want healing recieved as a stat? seriously? ok, my fighters and barbarians will hang out at the back of the group till the ranger had aggro then pick off the mobs one by one. i guarentee ill still get a ton of friggin damage dealt, that poor ranger may die a few times but hey, my stats are assured. i know, monk/ranger/pally's are broken with 90ac and dual stat damagers... lets have a contest that guarentees their victory and uber them up a little more. Or instead of finding a group and running some quests (hard enough now) we could each log on our most powerful, already decked out toon, run all over stormreach like idiots checking leaderboards for an easy one to beat, then ***** like 6 year olds on meatloaf night when only +1 tomes are dropping and fill up the forums with "where are the +4's?" waaaaaa, waaaaaaa.

Gunga
11-27-2008, 11:41 AM
So you lobby with your absolute opinions, and when we change your mind you find a new lobby with your absolute opinion.

This game is based on stats. More stats = better. The great PnP'rs knew the stats of their players and kept track, just like the old guys at the ball park with their charts.

The behavior of idiots will remain the same regardless of the tools you give them.

The better players will be able to make more informed decisions: it's the reason for the text book study and then the lab class. Put an educated idea on paper and then test the results based on real data.

And another thing: More xp for more kills or more healing is nonsense. This is a worse idea than Coldest jumping off of buildings dressed like Johnny Cash.

vtecfiend99
11-27-2008, 11:44 AM
The behavior of idiots will remain the same regardless of the tools you give them.

Aw come on Gunga, they gave you a computer didn't they?














lol, j/k

Gunga
11-27-2008, 11:45 AM
There are just too many things that make this game only very loosly based on P&P D&D.

This game is not D&D.

What video game is closer to D&D than DDO?

Gunga
11-27-2008, 11:46 AM
Aw come on Gunga, they gave you a computer didn't they?


No they didn't give me a computer, I built mine.

I do have a tool for you though. :)

CrimsonEagle
11-27-2008, 12:10 PM
What video game is closer to D&D than DDO?

Online game or regular video game?

Never Winter Nights is closer to D&D, but unfortunatly its not an MMO

As for Online MMO's, its really pretty much all the same. Big difference that this game has over the other RPG MMO's out there is the combat mechanics. (For me at least)

*Shrugs shoulders*

I don't know man. I just see too many differences, things that Turbine implemented in an attempt to make the game more fun for us, but in doing so, they veered so far from D&D that it is no longer recognizable as such. The list that I put up is just a small sample of the differences.

Once again, I still think this is the best game out there....if I didnt I wouldnt be here. I just dont see the D&D in DDO. I noticed this the first time I played this game and nothing has appeared to change my mind.

Crimson

Gunga
11-27-2008, 12:52 PM
Online game or regular video game?

Never Winter Nights is closer to D&D, but unfortunatly its not an MMO

As for Online MMO's, its really pretty much all the same. Big difference that this game has over the other RPG MMO's out there is the combat mechanics. (For me at least)

*Shrugs shoulders*

I don't know man. I just see too many differences, things that Turbine implemented in an attempt to make the game more fun for us, but in doing so, they veered so far from D&D that it is no longer recognizable as such. The list that I put up is just a small sample of the differences.

Once again, I still think this is the best game out there....if I didnt I wouldnt be here. I just dont see the D&D in DDO. I noticed this the first time I played this game and nothing has appeared to change my mind.

Crimson

Maybe it's a matter of opinion. I think this is more D&D than NWN. In any case, these two games are closer than any others to D&D, and your opinion that the game is only loosely based on D&D is so far off base to me that's it's difficult to have a serious discussion about it.

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.

vtecfiend99
11-27-2008, 12:53 PM
I do have a tool for you though. :)

thank god. could use a break im tired of lugging this one around, time to get a smaller model

Kistilan
11-27-2008, 01:06 PM
yer serious?? ok first off if u want the plat farmers out then bound items are the only way to go. you want healing recieved as a stat? seriously? ok, my fighters and barbarians will hang out at the back of the group till the ranger had aggro then pick off the mobs one by one. i guarentee ill still get a ton of friggin damage dealt, that poor ranger may die a few times but hey, my stats are assured. i know, monk/ranger/pally's are broken with 90ac and dual stat damagers... lets have a contest that guarentees their victory and uber them up a little more. Or instead of finding a group and running some quests (hard enough now) we could each log on our most powerful, already decked out toon, run all over stormreach like idiots checking leaderboards for an easy one to beat, then ***** like 6 year olds on meatloaf night when only +1 tomes are dropping and fill up the forums with "where are the +4's?" waaaaaa, waaaaaaa.

Heh... That's definitely not what I suggested. Not any of it... 'cept the binding items ('cept tomes). I don't know why I was quoted for this rant -- someone else maybe wrote something more pertinent to this thread response?

I also said monthly or bi-monthly. If the tournament with only say 10 positions for prizes was scheduled and automated, it would give a lot of people something to do once or twice a month for 12 hours. Say 9am est to 9 pm est and then results are tallied.

I never said give people extra xp for massive healing. That proves your entire group is being silly and either damaging themselves on purpose for xp, or is taking a beating (not good). Perhaps to encourage damage control, a bonus for not taking damage would be appropriate. That would give everything an awesome twist (and the sneaky rogue another useful objective).

branmakmuffin
11-28-2008, 12:26 AM
Maybe it's a matter of opinion. I think this is more D&D than NWN.
No votes for Icewind Dale 2?

By gum, it must be a matter of opinion. Yet your attitude suggests yours matters more. Why is that?

RigorAdar
11-28-2008, 01:59 AM
I would appreciate more stat info for myself, to evaluate how my own preformance ranks. Many people could benefit from this info. if you are not dealing out the same pecentage of damage as you are percentage of healing you recieve, and are not modifying it with some other ability (intimidate i.e.), maybe you need to modify your tactics.

If people are really worried about thier stats make em private so you can only see yours and the other party members are listed as anonymous1 ect.

As far as rewarding for stats it would be way to easy to exploit it.

nbhs275
11-28-2008, 02:29 PM
No, no no no no no no!!

You can't evaluate strategy through statistics, and any attempt to do so results in people tailoring their play to support stats - hence greatly exasperating the issues people are already complaining about due to the idiots who think the kill count is the scoreboard and killing more mobs in a DDO quest makes them Uber so they ignore strategy and cause problems and party wipes trying to prove that they are the most Uber.

You add more stats you add more stupid behavior.

I never played PnP with a scoreboard, it was always a "work together" game - one player may be awesome, but that is appreciated when the party succeeds, not because of some stat sheet.

Nothing personal, but worst idea ever...

In PnP a person could make stratigic decisions, take prisoners, set traps, ect. DDO has really boiled at that component of dnd and focused more heavily on the raw combat and human interaction component. Deal with it.

SamSneak
12-01-2008, 07:49 AM
Here is the challenge:

I agree with the OP, the stats and how people use them are silly....

just look at baseball and how agents overinflate the value of players because of "stats"

but on the other side

I LOVE STATS...in baseball that is all we kind of deal with, (look at fantasy baseball), I would like to see obviously more stats...

like hp healed, etc...

but I think the better players realize that tactics rule, intimitanks, etc...don't always get the kills but they do make it a lot easier.

Josh
12-01-2008, 09:05 AM
DnD is all about numbers. Personally, I would love to be able to see the stats for each quest broken down like that. I really don't care what everyone else does; I'm concerned with my own numbers for my own nefarious reasons. If people want to make it into an e-peen thing, that's on them. I could care less.

Clay
12-01-2008, 09:15 AM
or we could just use the development resources to make new content

Ganak
12-01-2008, 09:18 AM
Really great ideas if we had unlimited technical resources. However, to keep those stats entails the use of a greater amount of server and network resources., i.e. more lag.

branmakmuffin
12-01-2008, 11:10 AM
In PnP a person could make stratigic decisions, take prisoners, set traps, ect. DDO has really boiled at that component of dnd and focused more heavily on the raw combat and human interaction component. Deal with it.
Your assertion does nothing to address Issip's that he "never played PnP with a scoreboard, it was always a 'work together' game." DDO is still a "work together" game, which is why running with self-sufficient zergers is so boring. They're not working as a team, they're working as a machine that functions well only so long as everyone does exactly what he or she is supposed to do (based on intimate knowledge of the quest and the lore of tactics required for it), when, where and how he or she is supposed to do it.

cappuccino
12-01-2008, 11:54 AM
More Stats? Sure

More Stats listed on the completion report or showin in your bio automatically? NO

This would for one (and I know I have seen this before in other threads and will say it again) will make for silly LFM requirements for groups (lets leave it now with the muppet show, WOP req'd, must know way, and others) cause I could see it now LFM for WW Elite - Lvls 3-5 must have min 90% of damage delt stat.

This would be horrid for the casual gamer (which I am not) and also the new player (come on who doesn't want to see new players to this game?)


Now the negative being said.

A private stat list that you can review yourself would be great. Would let the player look back at his or her character and see how effective it is, or what needs improvement.

my 2cps and don't make me get out my -10 tinfoil hat of abestos bane

nbhs275
12-01-2008, 01:07 PM
Your assertion does nothing to address Issip's that he "never played PnP with a scoreboard, it was always a 'work together' game." DDO is still a "work together" game, which is why running with self-sufficient zergers is so boring. They're not working as a team, they're working as a machine that functions well only so long as everyone does exactly what he or she is supposed to do (based on intimate knowledge of the quest and the lore of tactics required for it), when, where and how he or she is supposed to do it.

Im sorry, when i play pnp, i usually play something that yes, will be of use to a party, but that also is going to be effective. And in many groups it does usually boil down in combat to one person being the star and the others playing his support.

And i can give you an example.

In my current pnp game, im playing a psychic warrior. And im a brazen over the top damage machine. And when we get into fights, my party now knows that the safest and fastest way through a fight is by setting up the pins for me. If that means the cleric debuffing or distracting a group of enemies so i can dispact 1-2 at a time, thats what happens. If it means the rogue setting up flanks with me and making them move across one of use for a AoO, then thats what happens. It all boils down to the party supporting a specific character in a specific situation. Im the main player in a fight, but the rogue has our priority when its a trap/social situation, or when it comes to magic items we look to the artificier or wizard. But because those aspects are so far downplayed by DDO, combat is our main focus. And having a tool that gives you a rough evalutation of such, is important.

GlassCannon
12-01-2008, 02:02 PM
Nothing personal, but worst idea ever...

Blah, stick in the mud.

Stats of the characters, Equipment CR listed first(i.e., Fully decked Shroud maniac would have an Equipment CR of maybe 32, whereas a newbie would have gear CR of around 11 or 12 capped), then said statistics, then optional would be a comparative breakdown of skill.

i.e., mr Powergamer Hacksalot Buysplatfromfarmers has a very powerful character that kills 214 monsters in the challenge instance. Mr. Ihaveafamily Andalife Idontplaymuch has a character thrown together for fun and not one mathematical statistic was factored into its functionality, and kills 86 monsters in the same instance, dealing less than 1/3 the damage that mr Cheatypants does, but taking 2/3 less damage as well due to Halo experience(not AC). This match would illustrate the skill gap between the two, and lean in the Casual Gamer's favor.

Side note: Monsters in the Challenge instances would have Raid Boss immunities, and would be calculated as per a player's Level+Equipment CR

GlassCannon
12-01-2008, 02:08 PM
Also, when was this first requested? MOD 1? MOD 2?

It's been ages, surely someone has at least figured out how to do it by now...?


It looks like all our oldest threads from 2006 were deleted for being old, else I'd reference the 13-page or so banterfest about an expanded Kill Sheet to include details as specific as those on Grand Theft Auto type games... even the strangest things were counted, like number of rolls on a car, max number of flips, max distance flown in a car... bullets used, pedestrians killed, number of police killed, etc.