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View Full Version : Shield Crafting, In development? Or do I go TWF?



Jeffywan
11-18-2008, 06:34 PM
With the benifit that can be gained from a second shroud weapon I am tempted to trade my sheild proficency feat for TWF feat (ofcourse both can be done without feat). The only thing is I like the sword and board, it protects my squishy rouge body. But a sheild clicky and a shroud weapon can get me a higher AC bonus clickys and higher dps.

It could even be incorporated into the shroud using the current system, but I hope the Devs are planing somthing special for those of us that like a piece of metal between us and our enimes. Anyone else feel their shield needs a boost?

Noctus
11-18-2008, 07:07 PM
Sword&Board Combat Style needs to get some love.

Borror0
11-18-2008, 07:39 PM
Shield crafting would be an horrible idea.

That said, S&B needs some DPS love and monk splash and Icy Raiment needs some nerfing.

Auran82
11-18-2008, 08:22 PM
Shield crafting would be an horrible idea.

That said, S&B needs some DPS love and monk splash and Icy Raiment needs some nerfing.

Offhand shield bashes in the attack sequence (maybe as 'hooks')

The monk thing? Limit the wis bonus based on monk levels (or percentage like the sorcs SP bonus) or make you have to be centered to get it.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 05:54 AM
Offhand shield bashes in the attack sequence (maybe as 'hooks')
That has been suggested by Aesop and I'm liking it more and more as time goes by.

That and maybe increasing the Str bonus to damage to 1.25 instead of 1.00. That would gain +2-3 damage more. It'd help a little.

Aesop
11-19-2008, 06:04 AM
/yawn...

morning ... what'd I do now?

oh **** late for work

Aesop

krud
11-19-2008, 06:06 AM
Offhand shield bashes in the attack sequence (maybe as 'hooks')

The monk thing? Limit the wis bonus based on monk levels (or percentage like the sorcs SP bonus) or make you have to be centered to get it.

/agreed.

However, instead of 1.25 str damage, I would give enhancements that would add to the shield bash damage. Make the shield bash feats prereqs for the higher tier enhancements.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 06:09 AM
/agreed.

However, instead of 1.25 str damage, I would give enhancements that would add to the shield bash damage. Make the shield bash feats prereqs for the higher tier enhancements.
Did you mean to quote me?

Personally, I just rather not forcing S&B to pick up too many feat/enhancements to improve.

krud
11-19-2008, 06:25 AM
Did you mean to quote me?

Personally, I just rather not forcing S&B to pick up too many feat/enhancements to improve.

I'm of the idea that they should be able to pick up a small bonus with minimal AP and no prereqs, however if they choose they can get a larger bonus if they focus on it, and get the feats and spend the AP.

It could be a +2/+4/+8 (non-stacking) bonus for 2/4/6 AP and imp shield bash feat as prereq for the last two tier.

or +1/+2/+4/+8 for 1/2/3/4AP and imp shield bash feat for the last two tier. (or if you prefer stacking bonus then +1/+2/+3/+4)

Not much of an AP cost to get the same bonus you suggested, but the option to get higher if you want to focus.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 06:43 AM
Not much of an AP cost to get the same bonus you suggested, but the option to get higher if you want to focus.
Not really. The +3 damage would be per swing, rather than per shield bash.

Anyway, before putting any number we should try to determinate the frequency of the hooks.

krud
11-19-2008, 06:52 AM
Not really. The +3 damage would be per swing, rather than per shield bash.

Anyway, before putting any number we should try to determinate the frequency of the hooks.

ok, I thought the 1.25 str bonus was for bashing. Maybe both ideas?

Borror0
11-19-2008, 06:59 AM
ok, I thought the 1.25 str bonus was for bashing. Maybe both ideas?
"Maybe."

We'd have to run the numbers and probably revisit the way shield bashing works. Kinda lame atm.

krud
11-19-2008, 07:27 AM
...monk splash... needs some nerfing.

just a side thought, do you think monks should remain centered when using racially preferred weapons? e.g dwarves w/axes, elves w/rapiers,ls, etc.

Thrudh
11-19-2008, 07:27 AM
With the benifit that can be gained from a second shroud weapon I am tempted to trade my sheild proficency feat for TWF feat (ofcourse both can be done without feat). The only thing is I like the sword and board, it protects my squishy rouge body. But a sheild clicky and a shroud weapon can get me a higher AC bonus clickys and higher dps.

It could even be incorporated into the shroud using the current system, but I hope the Devs are planing somthing special for those of us that like a piece of metal between us and our enimes. Anyone else feel their shield needs a boost?

First off, you shouldn't waste a feat on shield proficiency... Better to splash fighter for the free proficiencies (and another feat!) or just get yourself a mithral shield. Zero penalties for using a mithral shield even if you don't have shield proficiency.

So yeah, find a +5 mithral heavy shield for when you want to go Sword and Board... and replace that feat with TWF and try out two-weapon fighting...

Two-weapon fighting is a lot of fun... You can have a paralyzer in one hand, a banisher in the other for example. If even one of the two weapon weapons has a seeker bonus or a sneak attack bonus, you gain the benefit with both weapons. DPS is high because you get sneak attack for both weapons, etc.

All that said, I hope they do implement shield crafting someday...

Alcides
11-19-2008, 07:38 AM
Shield crafting would be an horrible idea.

That said, S&B needs some DPS love and monk splash and Icy Raiment needs some nerfing.

So it's ok for a toon to run around with two tier 3 shroud weapons, but not ok for a toon to run around with a tier 3 shroud weapon and a non crafted shield? It's hard enough to itemize a S&B toon as it stands.

Really if they would just let us take the dodge rituals up to a maximum of +4, I think everything would shake itself out.

Alcides
11-19-2008, 07:39 AM
just a side thought, do you think monks should remain centered when using racially preferred weapons? e.g dwarves w/axes, elves w/rapiers,ls, etc.

Good luck in convincing Borror0 of anything, he has a very dour opinion of what is balanced and what is not.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 08:19 AM
Good luck in convincing Borror0 of anything, he has a very dour opinion of what is balanced and what is not.
Sorry, but giving paladins as much DPS per swing as rangers against their favored enemy isn't my version of "balanced".

Especially when rangers are supposed to be a much more DPS-centric class than paladins.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 08:26 AM
just a side thought, do you think monks should remain centered when using racially preferred weapons? e.g dwarves w/axes, elves w/rapiers,ls, etc.
My opinion on that is similar to Angelus_dead's which was that if a monk is willing to grab the enhancements for it, they could use it. However, in that case the weapon would be downgraded to something lesser. Otherwise it would cause a lot more problems.

So it's ok for a toon to run around with two tier 3 shroud weapons, but not ok for a toon to run around with a tier 3 shroud weapon and a non crafted shield?
Weapons are weapons. Once you allow one, you're stuck to accept the another one going in the other hand. If you don't you severely punish TWF characters in comparison to THF characters as they not only have to find two weapons but they get cut in their DPS output.

For shields, it's different.

It's hard enough to itemize a S&B toon as it stands.
By itemize, I am assuming you mean gearing up?

Then, why would you want to be stuck grinding for more gear if it's already hard to equip a S&B character?

Really if they would just let us take the dodge rituals up to a maximum of +4, I think everything would shake itself out.
Except that is a very bad idea in itself.

artvan_delet
11-19-2008, 08:44 AM
Shield crafting would be an horrible idea.

That said, S&B needs some DPS love and monk splash and Icy Raiment needs some nerfing.

You think the devs are going to nerf raiments and monk splash? I doubt it. The poster should go TWF, there's no dispute that TWF rules the day now. Dual green-steel TWF is so far ahead of S/B it makes my stomach churn. And we're months away from the next mod. They haven't added shield love in a year, no reason to expect they will now.

Talcyndl
11-19-2008, 10:14 AM
Shield crafting would be an horrible idea.

Compared to all the other crafting, which you are a big fan of. ;)

Borror0
11-19-2008, 10:20 AM
Compared to all the other crafting, which you are a big fan of. ;)
Given the expectations other have for it, yeah, it would be even worse than what crafting possibly could be.

Talcyndl
11-19-2008, 10:27 AM
Given the expectations other have for it, yeah, it would be even worse than what crafting possibly could be.

Not sure why. Just assume it would allow the same basic effects currently on Shroud items or weapons. Why would allowing those on a Shield be "even worse" than what we have now?

Beyond, of course, your view that any [more] crafting is [more] unbalancing.

EazyWeazy
11-19-2008, 10:36 AM
I want a WoP shield and I want Shield mastery feats to act as weapon specialization with additional bonus to hit!!! :D

Turial
11-19-2008, 10:36 AM
I'm of the idea that they should be able to pick up a small bonus with minimal AP and no prereqs, however if they choose they can get a larger bonus if they focus on it, and get the feats and spend the AP.

It could be a +2/+4/+8 (non-stacking) bonus for 2/4/6 AP and imp shield bash feat as prereq for the last two tier.

or +1/+2/+4/+8 for 1/2/3/4AP and imp shield bash feat for the last two tier. (or if you prefer stacking bonus then +1/+2/+3/+4)

Not much of an AP cost to get the same bonus you suggested, but the option to get higher if you want to focus.

It does become expensive when you think that most S&B players are spending AP on armor mastery. If they aren't then they need to think about why they are holding a shield, unless they are some sort of high dex outfit wearing shield user.

Ralmeth
11-19-2008, 10:38 AM
Just wanted to throw my two cents in, as my main is S&B, and I'm leveling up a TWF:

Shield Crafting:
This seems likes a good way to give anyone going S&B to get the extra crafting benefits that a TWF would get by building two greensteel weapons. Why not add shields into the Shroud mix?

S&B vs. TWF:
One thing to bear in mind is that TWF has 3 good feats that you can put into it, Rangers getting for free, in order to make your TWF fighting style better. S&B has only 2 very marginal feats, and I suggest that the shield mastery feats are only helpful for an intimitank who is throwing out intimidate and then shield blocking. If you are a typical Paladin, Cleric, etc that is fighting S&B you have no feat options available to you. None, as the shield mastery feats are practically useless to you. So some S&B feats and/or enhancements would be really helpful.

Does anyone have any ideas on some specific S&B feats or enhancements that would make sense?

Borror0
11-19-2008, 10:38 AM
Why would allowing those on a Shield be "even worse" than what we have now?
Fixing an issue with gear you have to grind for is a punishment compared to fixing it by feats, enhancements or other modifications/additions pf the kind.

New gear should be added to keep the players' interest. Not to balance.

Varr
11-19-2008, 10:43 AM
For me the key to this post is his rogue body. Any rogue that fights with a sword and board should get a serious beat down my his trainer next time he goes to level. Like that little rogue kobald drop kicking ya for ever thinking about fighting in any fashion than two weapons. I love different builds and ways to run said builds.........but consistanly running a rogue not in two weapon fighting mode, I cant get my head around it once you clear level 9 and can take improved two weapon fighting. Levels 1-6 or so make total sence to me, as your rogue grows into his two weapon fighting dynamic.

Turial
11-19-2008, 11:20 AM
Offhand shield bashes in the attack sequence (maybe as 'hooks')

The monk thing? Limit the wis bonus based on monk levels (or percentage like the sorcs SP bonus) or make you have to be centered to get it.

Would be the way to go. In pnp you can use your shield as an off-hand weapon with additional attacks occuring as you take the two-weapon fighting feats.

All it would require is some animation (the killer) and a toggle that says: On - Allow off hand attacks with shield, Off - Do not allows off hand attacks with shield.

So with out TWF a S&B player would get a single hook with the shield, I would imagine have it be the lead attack, the shield swings and then the 5 attacks with the weapon.

They could then allow WF, WS, and IC lines to work with shields. That would improve shield bash a bit and add to S&B DPS. It might also curtail nicely into an AC build because they may have enough dex to pick up the TWF feats due to trying to max out mithral and armor mastery.

tc12
11-19-2008, 11:44 AM
Weapons are weapons. Once you allow one, you're stuck to accept the another one going in the other hand. If you don't you severely punish TWF characters in comparison to THF characters as they not only have to find two weapons but they get cut in their DPS output.

For shields, it's different.


I'm not following your reasoning here Borr. Weapon crafting means you need to allow the for wielding 2 crafted weapons. So 2 uber weapons is ok.

Now we have armor crafting, and ideally those bonuses should have been mostly defensive in nature -- some are and some aren't. But it seems to me if you forgo the extra offense of a second weapon for a shield, you should be able to gain a second set of defensive bonuses. The shield benefits to defense should mirror the crafted 2nd weapon benefits seen by 2wf'ers. Otherwise everyone's encouraged to go 2wf which has been the unintentional (or un-pnp dnd at least) outcome.

Now note I did say defensive bonuses while really the implemented crafted armor bonuses aren't really all strictly defensive. I'd like to see shield crafting have defensive benefits which even if present on your armor STACK. Bonuses to dodge/insight or increased DR (not just blocking DR) would be the 2 that could really make a shield worth using.

But again, I'm not seeing why equiping a shield shouldn't get you powerful defensive effects from crafting when equip'ing a weapon sure does offensively.

TC

PS I think the Monk splash solution is to limit AC bonus from WIS to 1/2 your monk levels or so, or even 1/1. The intended output being that full monks are essentially unpenalized -- I don't know how much WIS most monks really target -- while splashers get a more modest (and many would say appropriate) boost. I mean even at 1:1, splashing 2 levels of Monk to get 2 AC, evasion and 2 feats seems plenty generous, don't ya think?

Alcides
11-19-2008, 12:20 PM
Sorry, but giving paladins as much DPS per swing as rangers against their favored enemy isn't my version of "balanced".

Especially when rangers are supposed to be a much more DPS-centric class than paladins.

This is a thread about S&B vs TWF it has nothing to do with my stance on Divine Might. So stay on topic.

Deathseeker
11-19-2008, 12:28 PM
Fixing an issue with gear you have to grind for is a punishment compared to fixing it by feats, enhancements or other modifications/additions pf the kind.

New gear should be added to keep the players' interest. Not to balance.

Agree in principle if this were a discussion before Greensteel weapons existed, but now that they are in place, not having some of those options on a shield make the imbalance between TWF and S&B even worse. At a minimum, give me the +4 insight AC bonus on a crafted shield. At least then I stay on an even playing field with TWF. As it stands, TWF gets to have the +4 bonus in one hand and something else in another.

I agree balancing shouldn't be done through gear. But when the imbalance was partly created by the gear crafting, at least level the playing field.

Let me have my +4 Insight bonus and +4 Dodge bonus on a shield, and I'll go show all those pajama wearing TWF monk splashed supertanks what a real AC tank can do! :D

Borror0
11-19-2008, 12:47 PM
Agree in principle if this were a discussion before Greensteel weapons existed, but now that they are in place, not having some of those options on a shield make the imbalance between TWF and S&B even worse.
That's totally false.

Being weaker is what makes S&B weaker. You make them not weaker and they are not weaker anymore. How to achieve this goal is totally up to the developer.

I agree balancing shouldn't be done through gear. But when the imbalance was partly created by the gear crafting, at least level the playing field.
Really? What piece of gear caused the problem?

Green Steel equipment is partly to blame for that, but none of it can be solved through addition of Green Steel shields.

+4 Dodge bonus on a shield
This would be a terrible idea. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1932496#post1932496)

Alcides
11-19-2008, 12:50 PM
Weapons are weapons. Once you allow one, you're stuck to accept the another one going in the other hand. If you don't you severely punish TWF characters in comparison to THF characters as they not only have to find two weapons but they get cut in their DPS output.

For shields, it's different.


So it's okay to punish a TWF build by virtue of being a two weapon fighting build? Tell me how that's fair. If someone builds a character in a certain way that's not a reason to punish them. If it's in the game it is fair game to be utilized PERIOD. If someone min maxes a character around some mechanic to best utilize said mechanic they should not be punished, otherwise you might as well ask everyone who's playing DDO to stop playing.

Crafting two weapons and crafting a weapon and a shield is not much different. When crafting two weapons a character has more access to effects that are not available on random items.



By itemize, I am assuming you mean gearing up?


Yep, try gearing a paladin intimitank that can keep zeal going for 30 minutes. It's not easy and requires a lot of items.



Then, why would you want to be stuck grinding for more gear if it's already hard to equip a S&B character?

Because I would like to have the ability to make a shield with some of the modifiers that you could potentially get on a shroud weapon/item. And what else do you do with a capped toon but grind for gear for that toon or other toons anyway?


Except that is a very bad idea in itself.
You clearly don't understand PR. It is in the best interests of any company that develops MMO software for revenue to not alienate it's player base.

If 50% of your population uses an icy raiment and 5% uses S&B. Nerfing the icy raiment is going to make more people angry than if you just increase the average AC of S&B instead. Not to mention by nerfing an item you are basically reneging on an offer you gave to your player base in the first place, which shows that you are two faced.

Jeffywan
11-19-2008, 12:51 PM
For me the key to this post is his rogue body. Any rogue that fights with a sword and board should get a serious beat down my his trainer next time he goes to level. Like that little rogue kobald drop kicking ya for ever thinking about fighting in any fashion than two weapons. I love different builds and ways to run said builds.........but consistanly running a rogue not in two weapon fighting mode, I cant get my head around it once you clear level 9 and can take improved two weapon fighting. Levels 1-6 or so make total sence to me, as your rogue grows into his two weapon fighting dynamic.

I am a halfling rouge with Dragonmarks for healing, I am sneaky and assasinate but also jump in and flank with high sneak attack DPS, which at times gets an enimes attention or puts me in range of an arc attack, when this occurs I back out and heal myself and then reenter. High AC means I backout less and can continue my DPS without draining healing resources. My rouge trainer foucsed on survivablity (a dead rouge is a useless rouge) and S/B used to be the best way to survive. Now it is looking like TWF is.
I just don't like feeling as if there is only one effective style and I need to do what everyone else is-- I like D&D and the feats because it means I as a rouge am slightly different and can be effective using different tactics. It just seems weird for better defense I should switch to TWF rather then S/B.

Deathseeker
11-19-2008, 12:59 PM
That's totally false.

Being weaker is what makes S&B weaker. You make them not weaker and they are not weaker anymore. How to achieve this goal is totally up to the developer.

I didnt follow this. I'm not trying to be a smartXXX as I appreciate your views on lots of stuff. I mean I literally didnt get your meaning on this one.



Really? What piece of gear caused the problem?


Well, Icey raiments, +4 Insight bonus on weapons, and chattering ring not stacking with dragontouched armor would be my examples.

Let me ask a different way. Do you believe, wearing nothing but +1 gear but with all available enhancements and feats, that a TWF and S&B are balanced? I believe, if you don't involve a monk splash, they are, as the S&B can block and attain AC a TWF can't. It's the additional of all of the above gear that starts making things a mess (and the monk AC splash) as AC becomes a TWF advantage instead of a S&B advantage. Its not completely gear caused, but the gear is certainly making it worse.

Since they aren't about to get rid of all the gear, at least making other items for S&B folk would help...

Borror0
11-19-2008, 01:08 PM
I mean I literally didnt get your meaning on this one.
Sorry, I recognize it can be a bit weird to read.

Basically, the point is that S&B is weaker. Period. That can be addressed by making them stronger. The way it is achieve is totally left to the developers of the game to choose from. Whether it's gear, feats, enhancements or core changes to S&B to make it better. All up to them.

Well, Icey raiments, +4 Insight bonus on weapons, and chattering ring not stacking with dragontouched armor would be my examples.

Icy Raiments are not crafted gear, which was that you talked about in our previous post. Thus, it' a completely different topic. But, if you want to know, the right approach to that is to nerf it. It shouldn't have existed in the first place. It puts TWF higher than it should be and makes it harder for everyone to achieve good AC.

As for dragontouched armor's Dodge bonus not stacking, that was a good move to try to slow down the AC inflation beyond insane levels. It's not perfect. There are flaws to it, obviously, but it's still better than it would have been to let it stack.


Do you believe, wearing nothing but +1 gear but with all available enhancements and feats, that a TWF and S&B are balanced?
Depends.

If you mean at lower levels, no, as S&B just pwns both THF and TWF.

If you mean at higher levels, no, as TWF pwns THF and double pwns S&B as it cannot achieve significant AC due to a lack of gear.

Its not completely gear caused, but the gear is certainly making it worse.
The only guilty on the gear side are the IR.

bobbryan2
11-19-2008, 01:11 PM
They could just bring back the alacrity feat they nixed in mod 3.

10% attack speed bonus to someone using one weapon. At the time it was deemed overpowered because no one in their right mind wouldn't be S&B.

krud
11-19-2008, 01:15 PM
I just don't like feeling as if there is only one effective style and I need to do what everyone else is-- I like D&D and the feats because it means I as a rouge am slightly different and can be effective using different tactics. It just seems weird for better defense I should switch to TWF rather then S/B.

same here. I had a high AC tactics ftr/rog who went S&B for the longest time, but recently sitched over to TWF. I am finding out that even with only the first TWF feat he does much better dps, and the lower AC doesn't seem to matter much. I really wanted to stay S&B, but the benefits vastly outweighed any cost. No good reason to stay S&B. Now all I need is that +3 dex tome to get the rest of the TWF feats.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 01:25 PM
So it's okay to punish a TWF build by virtue of being a two weapon fighting build? Tell me how that's fair.
It is not punishing them, but simply that there is nothing we can do about it.

If Turbine adds the possibility to craft the weapon you want, that problem will arise. A two-handed fighting character will craft his own. Then, a two-weapon fighting character will craft his own. Now, if Turbine sets a limit of only one crafted weapon equipped at the time, it severely punishes the two-weapon fighter in comparison to the two-handed fighting character.

Turbine are thus stuck at allowing TWF to wield the item. It's inherent to the design of TWF unless they code it so wielding one one-handed weapon in your main hand will also add a copy of the same weapon in your off-hand. However, that is a totally different topic.

Crafting two weapons and crafting a weapon and a shield is not much different.
They are different.

Crafting two weapons, as mentioned above, cannot be prevented. Or at least should not be prevented for as long as you care of the balance between THF and TWF. However, the balance between TWF and S&B can be maintained without the existence of crafting.

Because I would like to have the ability to make a shield with some of the modifiers that you could potentially get on a shroud weapon/item.
"Because I want to" isn't a valid argument and only makes you look self-centered.


And what else do you do with a capped toon but grind for gear for that toon or other toons anyway?
You are misunderstanding the issue of you see it this way.

There is nothnig with rewarding playing a lot. It's a question of how big that reward should be.


You clearly don't understand PR. It is in the best interests of any company that develops MMO software for revenue to not alienate it's player base.
It is also in the best interest of a MMO company to produce a well-developed game.

It's also a debate of whether or not players are going to leave over the nerf of an item. Most aren't.

Not to mention by nerfing an item you are basically reneging on an offer you gave to your player base in the first place, which shows that you are two faced.
...or that you are capable of admitting you messed up in the first place and that you put your game before your ego.

Plus, it would be to the TWF characters' advantage that they prefer nerfing the Icy Raiments.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 01:41 PM
Now we have armor crafting, and ideally those bonuses should have been mostly defensive in nature -- some are and some aren't.
...well, you are right that Turbine have been more trigger happy on procs than they should.

But it seems to me if you forgo the extra offense of a second weapon for a shield, you should be able to gain a second set of defensive bonuses.
The problem is that this is much more dangerous for the defensive side.

Whether you are dealing 68.8 damage per swing on average or 70.1 won't make much of a difference. A gap of 2 AC however is easily noticeable.

Now, I'm not totally against good shields. That would be a ridiculous stance. However, we got to be careful about it and making in it another "must grind" would be a bad idea. S&B characters have enough of that already. A certain amount of grind if fine, but you got to be careful about the quantity of grind and its reward.

I mean even at 1:1, splashing 2 levels of Monk to get 2 AC, evasion and 2 feats seems plenty generous, don't ya think?
Agreed. +2 AC seems plenty to me. Might be ideal as it punishes those that have invested in Wisdom.

Of course, that would be moot if we would have access ability score respec.

Deathseeker
11-19-2008, 01:42 PM
Icy Raiments are not crafted gear, which was that you talked about in our previous post. Thus, it' a completely different topic. But, if you want to know, the right approach to that is to nerf it. It shouldn't have existed in the first place. It puts TWF higher than it should be and makes it harder for everyone to achieve good AC.

On this, we can agree. While the forums might explode if they actually did it, I do think this would go a long way to fixing it. They also look like they are doing something to nerf the +2 ac from Tempest which will also change that balance somewhat.

Could it be that they gave everyone the opportunity grab Icey Raiments via the skelly chest, so that when they nerf it, it will be nerfing something that required little effort to get so it will be perceived better? Ok, I know it's a stretch...but one can hope..

Let me try this one again...

Do you believe, wearing nothing but loot table gear (nothing named or crafted) but with all available enhancements and feats, that a TWF and S&B are balanced?

Borror0
11-19-2008, 01:45 PM
Do you believe, wearing nothing but loot table gear (nothing named or crafted) but with all available enhancements and feats, that a TWF and S&B are balanced?
Even if we ignore monk splash, S&B is still behind.

The AC aspect would be fine, but S&B is still way behind in DPS. It would need a little help as the sacrifice of DPS is a greater cost than the higher AC will reward.

Turial
11-19-2008, 01:57 PM
Even if we ignore monk splash, S&B is still behind.

The AC aspect would be fine, but S&B is still way behind in DPS. It would need a little help as the sacrifice of DPS is a greater cost than the higher AC will reward.

Enter in TWF with a shield in the off hand. Improved shield bash would let the S&B keep the AC and the TWF style would add to DPS without allowing them to eclipse the TWF with two actual weapons, unless they really allowed combat feats to affect shield bashing and someone chose to put the feats into it.

Varr
11-19-2008, 02:07 PM
I am a halfling rouge with Dragonmarks for healing, I am sneaky and assasinate but also jump in and flank with high sneak attack DPS, which at times gets an enimes attention or puts me in range of an arc attack, when this occurs I back out and heal myself and then reenter. High AC means I backout less and can continue my DPS without draining healing resources. My rouge trainer foucsed on survivablity (a dead rouge is a useless rouge) and S/B used to be the best way to survive. Now it is looking like TWF is.
I just don't like feeling as if there is only one effective style and I need to do what everyone else is-- I like D&D and the feats because it means I as a rouge am slightly different and can be effective using different tactics. It just seems weird for better defense I should switch to TWF rather then S/B.

Ah I see the problem here......we differ greatly on rogue philosophy! That works........this will clerify things.......ac on a rogue that is not built to solo is totally, absolutly, 100% worthless to me after level 9. If my fem rogues had better undergarments, they would not bother to get the super sexy black dragon leathers and run 100% of the time in a sweet teddy. To me rogues are just like barbs.......ac is as nothing and dps is everything....but they dont have the burden of having to get pounded on like a barb because they use agro management to stay untouched and can self heal thru wand or scroll when things get sideways.

Varr
11-19-2008, 02:16 PM
Gerr, duplicate

Alcides
11-19-2008, 02:20 PM
It is not punishing them, but simply that there is nothing we can do about it.

If Turbine adds the possibility to craft the weapon you want, that problem will arise. A two-handed fighting character will craft his own. Then, a two-weapon fighting character will craft his own. Now, if Turbine sets a limit of only one crafted weapon equipped at the time, it severely punishes the two-weapon fighter in comparison to the two-handed fighting character.

Turbine are thus stuck at allowing TWF to wield the item. It's inherent to the design of TWF unless they code it so wielding one one-handed weapon in your main hand will also add a copy of the same weapon in your off-hand. However, that is a totally different topic.


This is what I can deduce about your stance on S&B vs TWF
1. We can't do anything about TWF.
2. We can't have crafted shields.

By virtue of #1, you cannot nerf Icy Raiment or you would be doing something about TWF.
By virtue of #1, you cannot nerf anything that affects TWF otherwise you would be doing something about TWF.
By virtue of #2, we can do something else that does not violate #1 or we do nothing.

So do we do something that doesn't violate #1 or do we do nothing?



Crafting two weapons, as mentioned above, cannot be prevented. Or at least should not be prevented for as long as you care of the balance between THF and TWF. However, the balance between TWF and S&B can be maintained without the existence of crafting.

Define balance as it relates between S&B and TWF.



"Because I want to" isn't a valid argument and only makes you look self-centered.


Well then everyone is guilty of being self centered when making suggestions because it is a direct result of how they want an outcome to be. Thus my suggestions for how I would like to see the game implemented are no more self centered than your suggestions for how you would like to see the game balanced.



It is also in the best interest of a MMO company to produce a well-developed game.

It's also a debate of whether or not players are going to leave over the nerf of an item. Most aren't.

...or that you are capable of admitting you messed up in the first place and that you put your game before your ego.


As a developer, I'm just going to say this. You do whatever you are told to do to meet the needs of your paying customers. A well developed piece of software is one that has a very good reciprocal relationship between the developers and the target audience. Until DDO has a better mechanism than this forum for facilitating to the developers what a majority of the player base actually wants we are stuck with what they give us which is not reciprocal.

In the future if the player base as a whole had the opportunity to give suggestions for new features and to vote for/against a particular feature being implemented I think that would be an ideal reciprocal relationship between the player base and the devs.


Plus, it would be to the TWF characters' advantage that they prefer nerfing the Icy Raiments.

No it is at the TWF character's disadvantage because they lose AC and become more of a liability to being healed.

query
11-19-2008, 02:27 PM
we know TWF is overpowered with what's out there and no GS crafting is going to be taken away unless it ALL is taken away from all weaponry. Even if limited,could you imagine all the peopole who for months did the hard route to get specific abilities linked to enhancements now told it ain't happening?

No, the mess w GS is stuck w weaponry so far.

Now we have slot machine armor which (IMO) is retarted in its implementation. On even a base level, if I wanted to gamble on my spending resources, I'd go to one of the gambling NPCS (which odds we see on losing are closing in on getting the same ability again and again once you insert the coin...err rune into the slot...err altar.)

So, that's here, and honestly,I wouldn't mind while it's NEW if they would pull this and rework it somehow based on player feedback.

But for now,it's here too and defense got forgotten and unstackable AGAIN.

So we really have to ask if we are going to have an across the board update to EVERY shield, a certain ability updated, adding them to the slot machine or making GS shields?

On Devil's advocate, doesn't the "insight" bonus for items in GS show that unless removed, shields are now unfairly neglected for the defense they deserve as well? Forget attacks, I would accept a line of GS shield craftings SOLELY for defensive purposes whether AC or neg lvl absorption or DR, etc.

Or nerf ALL the GS options to rebalance shields.

Yeah,and until the slot machine outcome is fixed or changed to something else, adding shields here is a waste of gems and runes.

So until somebody shows a crafting-level powered opportunity boost for shields that doesn't include GS pathing, shields all but MUST go the path or be discarded after a certain level due to the gear we have to now carry just to make up for their underpowerdness.

I too dread my pallie having to go TWF or THF since shields will do near nothing but a +1 here and there, and pulling for named loot is as dumb as ignoring GS crafting or GH armor gambling.

And sadly, I feel Borr has a bias which will use whatever "fact" he can against shields while looking to the other stuff and saying too late, yet sees no problem with the rainments since they are "newer" but now hurting monks if lowered.

Well, lower it all or move it up to an equal playing field. I shouldn't have my basic items updated if everything BUT shields now can be crafted or "customized" by gambling.

Just plain stupid I can gamble a better docent I could ever pull/alchemical anyay.

Turial
11-19-2008, 02:30 PM
This is what I can deduce about your stance on S&B vs TWF
1. We can't do anything about TWF. Cant do anything about the ability for someone to use two crafted weapons without punishing that player compared to combat styles that only allow one crafted weapon either due to hand position requirements or holding a shield. AC is independent of ones ability to hold and fight with two weapons because everyone can hold and fight with two weapons...unless they only have one hand.
2. We can't have crafted shields.

By virtue of #1, you cannot nerf Icy Raiment or you would be doing something about TWF. You can nerf the IR because AC is independent of the TWF feat line. Nerfing the IR would affect more then just TWF PC's.
By virtue of #1, you cannot nerf anything that affects TWF otherwise you would be doing something about TWF.
By virtue of #2, we can do something else that does not violate #1 or we do nothing.

So do we do something that doesn't violate #1 or do we do nothing?


Define balance as it relates between S&B and TWF. One gets slightly better AC at a cost of DPS. The other gets a bit of AC and a lot of DPS. The problem is that defense as a strategy is poor compared to simply having the monster die faster as things currently stand. The dodge items in the game that Armored PC's can't wear are causing issues.
.......
No it is at the TWF character's disadvantage because they lose AC and become more of a liability to being healed. And yet people still put up with barbarians on a regular basis.

In red.

Jeffywan
11-19-2008, 02:30 PM
Ah I see the problem here......we differ greatly on rogue philosophy! .... To me rogues are just like barbs.......ac is as nothing and dps is everything..... they use agro management to stay untouched and can self heal thru wand or scroll when things get sideways.

That is what I like about D&D your rouge can operate effectivly that way and I can focus a bit more on AC so I don't get hit by glancing blows/cleaves etc. I go dragonmarks during combat to save time from switching to scrolls or wands and back to my S/B. I guess I just hope that something is done to preserve the diversity, when all rouges take TWF because the benifits greatly outway the S/B or some other style I would like to see that somthing is being done (wheather crafting, more random +5 sheild drops with other defensive benifits (like insight bonus, gaurds, etc.) or more named shields). As it stands if I get a good effect on a sheild it is a +1 or +2 sheild and then I am definitly better AC wise with a second crafted weapon with the +4 insight and higher DPS.

query
11-19-2008, 02:33 PM
to that wonderful rogue example posted by you two! Dead on!

I want my repeating CB rogue to have the same opportuniuty even if she does NOT melee the big bads.

Alcides
11-19-2008, 02:46 PM
In red.


So it's okay to punish a TWF build by virtue of being a two weapon fighting build? Tell me how that's fair.


It is not punishing them, but simply that there is nothing we can do about it.



Borror0 is directly stating that there is that can be done about TWF builds. If you nerf Icy Raiment then you are affecting some TWF builds but yet he has stated there is nothing we can do about two weapon fighting builds. Therefore if you nerf Icy Raiment you violate the statement "there is nothing we can do about it[two weapon fighting builds]" as you are clearly doing something about two weapon fighting builds by nerfing Icy Raiment as it affects some two weapon fighting builds. My argument holds until "there is nothing we can do about it" argument is retracted. End of discussion.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 02:56 PM
This is what I can deduce about your stance on S&B vs TWF
1. We can't do anything about TWF.
Wrong. Totally wrong.

We can't do anything about the ability for a player to wield two crafted weapons without punishing that player compared to other combat styles that only allow one weapon. The capacity of TWF players to gain high AC is not related to their capacity to wield two crafted weapons.

It is rather related to the fact that TWF can gain high AC while TWF through high Dex, IR or monk Wisdom bonus to AC.


Define balance as it relates between S&B and TWF.
Make a clearer statement.

In the future if the player base as a whole had the opportunity to give suggestions for new features and to vote for/against a particular feature being implemented I think that would be an ideal reciprocal relationship between the player base and the devs.
Majority does not always make right.


No it is at the TWF character's disadvantage because they lose AC and become more of a liability to being healed.
Here, developers have three choices:

Ignore the complaints, do nothnig about it.
Come up with extremely complicated fixes to improve S&B.
Nerf the IR.

Option #2 and option #3 would lead to a common outcome: S&B will be better in comparison to TWF.

So, do they want the developers to spend less or more time on the issue? Do they prefer an elegant and simple solution to the problem or do they prefer the most complex one that might take a few try before getting it right and could possibly create more problems?

There is also option #4: adding new gear int the game. Again, the same problem arise: they would be proxy-nerfed.

So, why go with that route?

query
11-19-2008, 02:59 PM
the minority is wrong too.


Wrong. Totally wrong.

We can't do anything about the ability for a player to wield two crafted weapons without punishing that player compared to other combat styles that only allow one weapon. The capacity of TWF players to gain high AC is not related to their capacity to wield two crafted weapons.

It is rather related to the fact that TWF can gain high AC while TWF through high Dex, IR or monk Wisdom bonus to AC.


Make a clearer statement.

Majority does not always make right.



Here, developers have three choices:
Ignore the complaints, do nothnig about it.
Come up with extremely complicated fixes to improve S&B.
Nerf the IR.
Option #2 and option #3 would lead to a common outcome: S&B will be better in comparison to TWF.

So, do they want the developers to spend less or more time on the issue? Do they prefer an elegant and simple solution to the problem or do they prefer the most complex one that might take a few try before getting it right and could possibly create more problems?

There is also option #4: adding new gear int the game. Again, the same problem arise: they would be proxy-nerfed.

So, why go with that route?

Borror0
11-19-2008, 03:02 PM
And sometimes the minority is wrong too.
That is true as well. I was just pointing out that Alcides was using a logical fallacy known as appeal to majority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum).

Borror0
11-19-2008, 03:04 PM
Borror0 is directly stating that there is that can be done about TWF builds.
The part you quoted clearly did not state that there is nothing that can be done about TWF characters. Read again.

query
11-19-2008, 03:06 PM
true,I know the straw man and slipery slope ones as well. But bluntly, the playerbase should decide the releases by majority assuming they take their
time to give feedback of course (no sampling decision if you will.)

Then again, the friends list update and toolbars were MINORITY requests, yet Gnome has been cited as "not popular enough"...so I throw up my hands what is vocal enough anyway!

Turbine needs to take its ADD meds :p


That is true as well. I was just pointing out that Alcides was using a logical fallacy known as appeal to majority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum).

Jeffywan
11-19-2008, 03:07 PM
Here, developers have three choices:

Ignore the complaints, do nothnig about it.
Come up with extremely complicated fixes to improve S&B.
Nerf the IR.

Option #2 and option #3 would lead to a common outcome: S&B will be better in comparison to TWF.

So, do they want the developers to spend less or more time on the issue? Do they prefer an elegant and simple solution to the problem or do they prefer the most complex one that might take a few try before getting it right and could possibly create more problems?

There is also option #4: adding new gear int the game. Again, the same problem arise: they would be proxy-nerfed.

So, why go with that route?

Why is #2 need to be extremly complecated? While I think it would be great to see somthing specific for S/B as a S/B user I don't expect a entirely new crafting system just for the S/B out there, but expanding an existing system to include sheilds maybe a sheild that can have an Eldrich and Tempest upgrade, still keeping the soverign for the armors. Or a greensteel sheild. Would those be horrible or complicated?

As for option #4 how does new gear proxy-nerf other gear? If there was a piece of gear one class or style wouldn't go for but produced a nice effect and then that effect is offered on a diffrent type of item as well, it does not make the first item less valuable, it just extends the value to other classes and play styles.

Alcides
11-19-2008, 03:12 PM
Wrong. Totally wrong.

We can't do anything about the ability for a player to wield two crafted weapons without punishing that player compared to other combat styles that only allow one weapon. The capacity of TWF players to gain high AC is not related to their capacity to wield two crafted weapons.

It is rather related to the fact that TWF can gain high AC while TWF through high Dex, IR or monk Wisdom bonus to AC.


Well if TWF builds have higher AC that S&B then give S&B more AC. Many TWF builds will still have more AC than S&B. So you cant just stop with nerfing Icy. Perhaps making the tempest bonus to AC a shield bonus along with making Improved Two Weapon Defense a Shield bonus to AC as well might be sufficient if one so chooses the almighty nerf bat approach.



Make a clearer statement.

Your claim of balance requires a working definition, otherwise your argument has no grounds and is baseless. Since your argument is defined on the basis of balance you need to define it or discontinue your argument as it has no grounds.



Majority does not always make right.

So totalitarianism should be en vogue?



Here, developers have three choices:

Ignore the complaints, do nothnig about it.
Come up with extremely complicated fixes to improve S&B.
Nerf the IR.

Option #2 and option #3 would lead to a common outcome: S&B will be better in comparison to TWF.

So, do they want the developers to spend less or more time on the issue? Do they prefer an elegant and simple solution to the problem or do they prefer the most complex one that might take a few try before getting it right and could possibly create more problems?

There is also option #4: adding new gear int the game. Again, the same problem arise: they would be proxy-nerfed.

So, why go with that route?

That is not a definitive list of all the actions that the developers could take and is merely speculation along with all the other stuff presented here. Perhaps you could also define elegant such that it conveys your argument in a way that doesn't merely cater to emotional values.

Junts
11-19-2008, 03:12 PM
who cares about shield crafting? levik's defender is amazing.


healers bounty go!

query
11-19-2008, 03:15 PM
Req: Club of Developer Sense-Knocking: Works on EACH hit...a critical means they listen to ALL people's feedback and make an informed choice based on that instead.


Why is #2 need to be extremly complecated? While I think it would be great to see somthing specific for S/B as a S/B user I don't expect a entirely new crafting system just for the S/B out there, but expanding an existing system to include sheilds maybe a sheild that can have an Eldrich and Tempest upgrade, still keeping the soverign for the armors. Or a greensteel sheild. Would those be horrible or complicated?

As for option #4 how does new gear proxy-nerf other gear? If there was a piece of gear one class or style wouldn't go for but produced a nice effect and then that effect is offered on a diffrent type of item as well, it does not make the first item less valuable, it just extends the value to other classes and play styles.

Alcides
11-19-2008, 03:15 PM
The part you quoted clearly did not state that there is nothing that can be done about TWF characters. Read again.

No I chose a literal interpretation of your arguments as axioms for my argument that is all.

Turial
11-19-2008, 03:17 PM
....
Weapons are weapons. Once you allow one, you're stuck to accept the another one going in the other hand. If you don't you severely punish TWF characters in comparison to THF characters as they not only have to find two weapons but they get cut in their DPS output.

For shields, it's different.

Translation: You would punish TWF characters if they could only weild 1 crafted weapon as compared to THF.


So it's okay to punish a TWF build by virtue of being a two weapon fighting build? Tell me how that's fair. If someone builds a character in a certain way that's not a reason to punish them. If it's in the game it is fair game to be utilized PERIOD. If someone min maxes a character around some mechanic to best utilize said mechanic they should not be punished, otherwise you might as well ask everyone who's playing DDO to stop playing.

Crafting two weapons and crafting a weapon and a shield is not much different. When crafting two weapons a character has more access to effects that are not available on random items.
.....


It is not punishing them, but simply that there is nothing we can do about it.

If Turbine adds the possibility to craft the weapon you want, that problem will arise. A two-handed fighting character will craft his own. Then, a two-weapon fighting character will craft his own. Now, if Turbine sets a limit of only one crafted weapon equipped at the time, it severely punishes the two-weapon fighter in comparison to the two-handed fighting character.

Turbine are thus stuck at allowing TWF to wield the item. It's inherent to the design of TWF unless they code it so wielding one one-handed weapon in your main hand will also add a copy of the same weapon in your off-hand. However, that is a totally different topic.
.....
Crafting two weapons, as mentioned above, cannot be prevented. Or at least should not be prevented for as long as you care of the balance between THF and TWF. However, the balance between TWF and S&B can be maintained without the existence of crafting.
....

They did do this for handwraps.


Borror0 is directly stating that there is that can be done about TWF builds. If you nerf Icy Raiment then you are affecting some TWF builds but yet he has stated there is nothing we can do about two weapon fighting builds. Therefore if you nerf Icy Raiment you violate the statement "there is nothing we can do about it[two weapon fighting builds]" as you are clearly doing something about two weapon fighting builds by nerfing Icy Raiment as it affects some two weapon fighting builds. My argument holds until "there is nothing we can do about it" argument is retracted. End of discussion.

Try again. Your logic would be sound if Borror0 was actually saying there is nothing that can be done about TWF as a concept.

He is saying that there is nothing one can do to stop a TWF from making 2 crafted weapons and using them without severly punishing the TWF over the THF or S&B.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 03:35 PM
But bluntly, the playerbase should decide the releases by majority assuming they take their time to give feedback of course (no sampling decision if you will.)
Democracy only works if everyone is well-informed on the issues at end.

Players can make a request as to "We'd like so & so" and that is fine. If they want the friend list improved again, Turbine puts it somewhere in their priority list. But there, everyone can express their opinion on if they like or dislike the way the friend list currently is. the proper way to balance is way more complex.

Each action you could do will have some consequences and very few players will take the time to analyze the consequences of each one of them.

Why is #2 need to be extremly complecated?
We TWF in one hand that currently reach the highDPS and the highest AC currently possible. On the other end, you have S&B with really extremely low DPS and lower AC than TWF. The gap between the AC achievable by a TWF build and a S&B build is pretty darn huge. As for the DPS gap, it's abysmal.

If you refuse to add an overpowered shield with +15 dodge AC on it, you are left with enhancements, feats and core changes.

That is complicated as you either have to add a bunch of feats to give AC bonuses while wielding a shield (and that would be a bad idea since it would lead to extremely linear/cookie-cutter builds). And even there, you would still have to close that huge gap there is. So, you add other non-AC bonuses? But what? DR? Avoid chances? Immunities? How do you know if it protects enough?

And then, there would be the DPs... a real nightmare.

As for option #4 how does new gear proxy-nerf other gear?
Good is defined by what is bad.

If one becomes better, the other automatically becomes worse.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 03:51 PM
Well if TWF builds have higher AC that S&B then give S&B more AC. Many TWF builds will still have more AC than S&B. So you cant just stop with nerfing Icy.
Indeed. Monk splash will also require nerfing.

Never said otherwise.

Your claim of balance requires a working definition, otherwise your argument has no grounds and is baseless.
It seems to be a pretty simple and nearly universal concept to me. What about the word balance do you not understand?

Aesop
11-19-2008, 03:59 PM
Since you are curious about my stance on democracy, I believe that democracy is currently the least worse of all systems but that it could be improved.?



"It has been said that Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Winston Churchill

Junts
11-19-2008, 04:01 PM
guys, quit arguing about twf and s/b and talk about how leet healer's bounty is, there hasn't been enough forum discussion of its awesomenity since it was fixed.

here, i'll start:


the shroud lets you craft something that, as of last testing, had a 1% chance to give you 20-30 hp or sp.


healer's bounty has a 2% chance to give you 90 hp, clear all your afflictions and stat damage.

and they aren't temporary hit points

and healing amplification boosts it.

isn't that cool?

Borror0
11-19-2008, 04:02 PM
"It has been said that Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Winston Churchill
hehe, exactly. I couldn't remember whose quote it was.

Jeffywan
11-19-2008, 04:21 PM
If you refuse to add an overpowered shield with +15 dodge AC on it, you are left with enhancements, feats and core changes.

Good is defined by what is bad.

If one becomes better, the other automatically becomes worse.


Those two points answer the initial questions I asked but not in the context that I provided through my examples. Borror0 it seems that you are looking at extremes... I don't think anyone would advocate a +15 dodge AC for a shield, or am I misunderstanding and are you trying to indicate that S/B is so underpowered that it would need something like that to be comparable?

I provided some analysis on how existing in game non-core changes might be used, I also indicated that some of the better effects on shields that I have seen drop randomly drop on +1 and +2 shields and thus are useless if you have a shield to increase AC.

On your second point about what is good is defined by what is bad, I would disagree I think what is good is defined by how effective it is at producing the results expected. So a shield that provides a lower AC then a weapon is not good, an item that protects you from something you need protection from = good, an item that is supposed to provide protection from something and the level of protection not worth the space = not so good etc.
Your answer specifically ignores my analysis of how some items exist and are practical for certain classes and builds and how by providing these effects on different items it does not make them less effective but instead creates good items for classes or builds that did not have prior access to them. In my opinion, that is good game balance.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 04:35 PM
Am I misunderstanding and are you trying to indicate that S/B is so underpowered that it would need something like that to be comparable?
I doubt that anyone would suggest that, but that would be what would be require to restore the balance, more or so, without any nerfing.

I provided some analysis on how existing in game non-core changes might be used
Where? I must have missed it.


I think what is good is defined by how effective it is at producing the results expected.
But, how do you know something is effective?

The best example of that are computer. I remember when my parents bought their first computer. It was worth a few thousands. It was a BEAST! The company my dad worked for was order a lot of them so my dad ordered one and got it at reduced fee, otherwise there would have been no way for us to afford it.

Now? It's a piece of junk. There is better.

Back in the days, it was awesome. But time has past and the definition of what is effective has been changed.

Turial
11-19-2008, 04:49 PM
guys, quit arguing about twf and s/b and talk about how leet healer's bounty is, there hasn't been enough forum discussion of its awesomenity since it was fixed.

here, i'll start:


the shroud lets you craft something that, as of last testing, had a 1% chance to give you 20-30 hp or sp.


healer's bounty has a 2% chance to give you 90 hp, clear all your afflictions and stat damage.

and they aren't temporary hit points

and healing amplification boosts it.

isn't that cool?

Now that it works it is indeed the "bees knees" as I had long expected it to be.

Aesop
11-19-2008, 05:01 PM
Shield Combat Suggestions

Alchemical Rituals
Have the bonuses be based on Shield or Armor type. I'm for a +1 apply to Light Armor, Cloth Armor, Bucklers and Light Shields, and a +2 for Medium and Heavy Armor and Heavy and Tower Shields.

I also suggest a second tier of Alchemical Rituals that require a Shield Previously Enchanted by the first tier ritual that applies the same bonus and a Blocking DR or Deflection Bonus.

Example:
Alchemical Ritual of Blocking: Ingredients: Bound Alchemically Enhanced Shield, 25 Greater Earth Soul Stones.
Effect: Improves the Blocking DR of the Shield by 2 for Bucklers and Light Shields and by 4 for Heavy and Tower Shields

Additionally there is a Feat in the Players Handbook 2 called

Shield Specialization
We could have this Feat grants +1 AC when using Bucklers or Light Shields and a +2 to Heavy and Tower Shields. This Feat also increases the Maximum Dex Bonus of Tower Shields by 1 and increases the DR while blocking with a shield by 5.

I’d have this feat replace the Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery Feats.


Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
Grant DR 2/- with that type of Armor

kinda blah really... maybe the following

Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
This Feat Increases the Maximum Dexterity Bonus that may be applied to a given set of Armor by 1. However to keep with the original intent we could give Armors a Natural Blocking DR based on TYpe and have this Feat improve that by 2 as well.

Light Armor: 1
Medium Armor: 2
Heavy Armor: 3

and this Feat could improve that by 2 as well



Passive Shield Blocking
Turbine has added another aspect to Sword and Shield fighting; Blocking DR. Blocking DR is only useful if you completely sacrifice Damage. Sword and Shield Fighting already has the second lowest Damage of all the styles (Ranged being the lowest ... with the exception of 20 sec per 2+ min period of time) so the proposal is to make the Blocking DR do something that is useful outside of standing there and taking shots. Give shields a % chance to "Automatically" block a blow. Each hit taken has a percent chance of having the characters Blocking DR absorb part of the blow.

Example: Robot Chicken a Warforged Fighter has a Blocking DR of 30 and gets struck by his old friend Harry for 65 damage. However using that Tower Shield that he does he has a chance to catch that 65 damage on the shield and turn aside 30 of it and because it is a Tower Shield that he uses its a pretty good chance.


Give a Straight Base Chance Based on Shield Type.

1 Weapon no Shield: 1%
Two Weapon no TWD: 2%
Buckler: 3%
Light Shield:5%
Heavy Shield: 10%
Tower Shield: 15%

Now add in a Feat modified from the PLayers Handbook 2

Active Shield Defense
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the ability to make Attacks of Opportunity (AoO) while Fighting Defensively without Penalty

Well we don't have AoO in DDO so something different and I think this lends itself well to increase the Passive Shield Blocking with a Shield by 5%


Active Shield Defense: +5%

then modify the TWD Feat as follows


Two Weapon Defense and Two Weapon Blocking: I suggest we combine these into a single Feat.
Two Weapon Defense: Grant the Character a +1 Shield AC when fighting with Two Weapons and increases the Characters Blocking Damage Reduction by 2 points. It also increases the Characters Chance to Passively Block a Shot by 2%.


Improved Two Weapon Defense: Grant the Character a +2 Shield AC when fighting with Two Weapons and increases the Characters Blocking Damage Reduction by 4 points. Passive Blocking improves by 2% while Two Weapon Fighting.

Greater Two Weapon Defense: Grant the Character a +3 Shield AC when fighting with Two Weapons and increases the Characters Blocking Damage Reduction by 6 points. Passive Blocking improves by an additional 2% while Two Weapon Fighting.


TWD line: +2% each

Also change up the THF feats a little to give them a little more umph

Two Handed Fighting: Improves the Damage of a Characters Glancing Blows. Increases the chance to Passively Block an attack by 1% and improves the effects of a Characters Strength from Strength times 1.5 to Str x 1.65.

Improved Two Handed Fighting:Improves the Damage of a Characters Glancing Blows. Increases the chance to Passively Block an attack by an additional 1% and improves the effects of a Characters Strength from Strength times 1.5 to Str x 1.8.

Greater Two Handed Fighting:Improves the Damage of a Characters Glancing Blows. Increases the chance to Passively Block an attack by an additional 1% and improves the effects of a Characters Strength from Strength times 1.5 to Str x 2.

THF line: +1% each

Additionally have the BAB of a character be a foctor in the Passive Blocking. After all ones experience in combat whould also improve your awareness and reflexes for parrying attacks

BAB: +.5% each

Also have Armor type factor in as well to complete an all around gathering of factors that will help combatants mitigate the damage

Light Armor +1%
Medium Armor +3%
Heavy Armor +5%


Short Form


1.Improving mitiagtion through use of a Passive Blocking mechanic.
a: Progressive Passive bonuses based on BAB combined with bonuses from Feat, and the improving bonuses based on types of Shields that give a percent chance to absorb the damage taken with the character's Blocking DR.
b:A sequence as follows may be a good way to implement.
1 Weapon no Shield: 1%
Two Weapon no TWD: 2%
Buckler: 3%
Light Shield:5%
Heavy Shield: 10%
Tower Shield: 15%

Active Shield Defense: +5%

TWD line: +2% each
THF line: +1% each

BAB: +.5% each

Light Armor +1%
Medium Armor +3%
Heavy Armor +5%

So a Level 20 Fighter with the Active Shield Defense a tower shield and Adamantine Full Plate would have a 35% chance to Block a shot without actively blocking

A Level 19/1 Ranger Monk wearing Robes with the full TWD line would have 17.5% chance to block a shot

a 20 Barbarian with full THF line wearing a Breastplate would have 17% chance to block a shot

Shield Bashing (or how to marginally improve S&B Damage):


a:One perhaps two passive Shield Bashing Attacks based on attack sequeance. Perhaps on the second and fourth or fifth attack in a sequence have a shield bash hook.

b: The Feat Improved Shield Bash could have a new effect built in that when a character Blocks an attack the amount of damage blocked is reflected back at the attacker.

Turial
11-19-2008, 05:02 PM
....
On your second point about what is good is defined by what is bad, I would disagree I think what is good is defined by how effective it is at producing the results expected. So a shield that provides a lower AC then a weapon is not good, (Good thing there aren't really any shields that fit this description) an item that protects you from something you need protection from = good (shields do this, just less well then monk WIS AC and a tier 3 insight weapon), an item that is supposed to provide protection from something and the level of protection not worth the space = not so good etc. (correct, which is why new, good AC items displace old AC items)
Your answer specifically ignores my analysis of how some items exist and are practical for certain classes and builds and how by providing these effects on different items it does not make them less effective but instead creates good items for classes or builds that did not have prior access to them. In my opinion, that is good game balance.

It can be good for game balance so long as the boosts are reasonable.

Jeffywan
11-19-2008, 05:32 PM
Where? I must have missed it..

{ANALYSIS} While I think it would be great to see somthing specific for S/B as a S/B user I don't expect a entirely new crafting system just for the S/B out there, but expanding an existing system to include sheilds maybe a sheild that can have an Eldrich and Tempest upgrade, still keeping the soverign for the armors. Or a greensteel sheild. Would those be horrible or complicated? {Restating the initial question to draw a response and possible critique}



But, how do you know something is effective?

The best example of that are computer. I remember when my parents bought their first computer. It was worth a few thousands. It was a BEAST! The company my dad worked for was order a lot of them so my dad ordered one and got it at reduced fee, otherwise there would have been no way for us to afford it.

Now? It's a piece of junk. There is better.

Back in the days, it was awesome. But time has past and the definition of what is effective has been changed.

That analysis is assuming that the new gear is an Improved or Greater version of the previous gear. When making that assumption yes gear that was "good" ie effective at a low level is no longer good or effective at a high level. Adding more gear does not have to fall into this assumption. My +5 Sheild has not changed since 8th level I think (what ever the level reqirment was for it) so it is not so good, it is a lot less effective comparably. But my analysis was that to add items you don't need to make an item that would nerf other types of builds but create ways for builds that do not get some of the benifits that others have recieved to recieve them in similar ways. But every good resistance I have had on a shield has been on less then a +5 shield which to me is not worth the loss of AC that already lower because weapons can add insisight bonuses. An insight bonus for a shield would also be a nice addition, none of this proxy-nerfs other items when you consider the only items it makes obsolete are the +5 shields that are already being dropped left and right for a second weapon.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 08:43 PM
{ANALYSIS}
I don't see your point here. You are being too vague.

An insight bonus for a shield would also be a nice addition, none of this proxy-nerfs other items when you consider the only items it makes obsolete are the +5 shields that are already being dropped left and right for a second weapon.
Proxy-nerf does not mean to render something useless, but rather less powerful.

Jeffywan
11-20-2008, 04:28 PM
I don't see your point here. You are being too vague.

Proxy-nerf does not mean to render something useless, but rather less powerful.

You quote the word analysis and say I am being too vague. You do not explain what you found vague. Reading your post it seems that you neglected the paragraph I labeled analysis. You indicated it needed to be complicated and I provided examples of non-core changes that could still meet the need. If you do not believe what I suggested would work that is one thing, I would like to hear your thoughts but if you are just looking over the suggestions please don't claim I am being vague without indicating what aspect you feel needs more details.

As for the Proxy-nerf response, stating the definition of Proxy-nerf while helpful in a discussion to ensure we are not talking about different things does not actually validate that what you are claiming is a Proxy-nerf is in fact a Proxy-nerf. You have failed to engage my analysis on how adding something available on a piece of equipment to one type to piece of equipment that is used another type does not make the original equipment any less valuable. Perhaps a solid example would be helpful as an illustration. Imagine there is some type of bonus; let us say it is an Uber-Guard that appears on a named Full-Plate in the game. Then they later add that Uber-Guard to a Vestment later in the game. A fighter that wears the Full-Plate with the Uber-Guard is not thinking that their Full-Plate is less effective now that a vestment with the Uber-Guard is available. However, in this example new character types can get the Uber-Guard. It helps those types that couldn't benefit before it doesn't hurt those that already do.

Originally you were concerned with comparative reference, your definition doesn't incorporate that but assuming a referential understanding of powerful the type of item that would make the fighter with the Uber-Guard Full Plate feel it was less powerful is a new armor with a Improved Uber-Guard Full Plate. Not an item he wouldn't use.

Talon_Moonshadow
11-20-2008, 04:56 PM
I want Shield crafting.

S&B needs love.

If done right, would not be overpowered....and needs to be done anyway, because right now, there is really no reason at all to build a char to use a shield.

The easiest addition to a shield I would like to see is more DR when blocking.

And on-hit effects to make you enemies regret attacking you.

Of course, I also want Captain America's shield, but that is probably too much to ask for . :)

There is no way that a normal man(read, non high lvl monk) should have a better AC without a shield than with one.
Same for Armor.

Even though this is a fantasy game, it is still a game with Knights, Swords ARMOR and Shields.

Yes, certain fantasy super-dex chars should have high AC, and fantasy Drunken Masters should be able to block/doge most attacks.

But Super Knight and SPartan Shield weilders have just as much right to be here...
Plus if Armor and Sields were really useless, they would disappear in the world cause no one would use them.

We don't have gunpowder, but we do have fireballs.....and I assume we have magical armor and shields to protect us from fireballs and Giant fists.

So lets add what is needed to keep S&B and wearing armor mean someting in this game.

Borror0
11-20-2008, 07:27 PM
You indicated it needed to be complicated and I provided examples of non-core changes that could still meet the need.
You provided an example of non-core change that could be done.

You haven't however even got close to explain how that would fix the imbalance nor have you explain how that would not be a strong penalty to more casual gamers.

You have failed to engage my analysis on how adding something available on a piece of equipment to one type to piece of equipment that is used another type does not make the original equipment any less valuable.
If +5 Heavy Steel Shield of Heavy Fortification are falling from the sky, why would anyone bother with a plain +5 Heavy Steel Shield? While they might be used at lower levels, the moment one could equip his +5 Heavy Steel Shield of Heavy Fortification he will and the +5 Heavy Steel Shield will be useless trash.

However, in this example new character types can get the Uber-Guard. It helps those types that couldn't benefit before it doesn't hurt those that already do.
That is only if you are comparing each player to himself. That is not how it works.

If I tell you "My fighter has 40 AC.", you are going to think it's bad. However, if I change it to this: "My fighter level 5 has 40 AC.", do you still think it's bad? Power is all about the concept. Before monks, 60 AC was pretty good. Now, it's much less. Yes, your fighter is as effective when compared to himself. However, others are much more powerful than he is.

Jeffywan
11-21-2008, 11:18 AM
You provided an example of non-core change that could be done.

You haven't however even got close to explain how that would fix the imbalance nor have you explain how that would not be a strong penalty to more casual gamers.
Lets look at the Dragon Touched Shield idea, It resolves the issue of shields being underpowered because it provides a way for a shield to save slots much like the shroud did for weapons. By limiting it to a Eldrich and a Tempest, you provide bonuses much like shields already get, but on a +5 shield. For example I can tell you even with the only eldrich upgrade a +5 Shield with Greater Fire Resist would be great. (I actually would probably try and collect shields with each of the Greater Resists and swap shields rather then cloaks) A casual gamer can complete 4 quests and get gems from 6 explorable areas in a couple weeks, and they will likely be going through the new content any way.


If +5 Heavy Steel Shield of Heavy Fortification are falling from the sky, why would anyone bother with a plain +5 Heavy Steel Shield? While they might be used at lower levels, the moment one could equip his +5 Heavy Steel Shield of Heavy Fortification he will and the +5 Heavy Steel Shield will be useless trash.
Agreed, however my point is I haven't upgraded my sheild since I got my +5 Shield with the a level requirment of 1/2 my level (I believe it is 8) So as I discussed earlier the fact that I have been using the same shield half my carrer and I have replaced every other piece of equipment since then and I am about to change to a weapon because in comparison I can achive the same AC: shield(7+1 eldrich), weapon (+4 Shroud, +4 bonus from shield clicky) and have more other benifits with the weapon. You can't really call it Proxy-Nerfing when you take an item that a character had good use of at lower levels and then introduce a new item for the character to grow into. (expecialy when the item is already by virtue of other gear nerfed) It would be like saying that any new weapon they add for level 16 characters nerfs weapons made for level 4 characters.


That is only if you are comparing each player to himself. That is not how it works.

If I tell you "My fighter has 40 AC.", you are going to think it's bad. However, if I change it to this: "My fighter level 5 has 40 AC.", do you still think it's bad? Power is all about the concept. Before monks, 60 AC was pretty good. Now, it's much less. Yes, your fighter is as effective when compared to himself. However, others are much more powerful than he is.

While players do compare to each other that is more for braging rights or PVP, when it comes to what is useful that depends on the mobs. If you are fighting and not getting hit reguarly or at all. You have a pretty good AC. If you get hit all the time, you don't. You know if I have a 60AC and some monk has a 70AC but we both are not getting hit except on a 20 who cares about the other 10AC. So that balance is not relient on equipment but Mobs To-Hit bonuses.

Chaos000
11-21-2008, 11:50 AM
At first I thought that dragontouched shield would be a bad idea and would skew it too far in the opposite direction.

here's what I propose:

dragontouched +5 small shield. DR 0, and you can enhance it with runes.

so long as we're not seeing large shield or tower shields this would work out and be an easy fix for the devs to implement.

Chaos000
11-21-2008, 12:11 PM
taking out the "thrane" "leviks" ... etc. cuz otherwise people would complain about not getting something special for having 4 of the item sets

Borror0
11-21-2008, 12:28 PM
It resolves the issue of shields being underpowered because it provides a way for a shield to save slots much like the shroud did for weapons.
That is not it.

Shields are not underpowered. S&B is. Making shield a slightly less worse sacrifice than what it was won't address the issue.


While players do compare to each other that is more for braging rights or PVP, when it comes to what is useful that depends on the mobs.
No. To decide what is effective you have to compare yourself to other players and to the mobs.

The mobs influence what is good and what is not. However, what the possible solutions to the treats are all compared one to another to determinate the good from the bad. For example, the high HP of Module 6 and higher trash mobs has made DPS irrelevant to get rid of them. So, regardless of your DPS, you won't get rid of them quickly. That made non-TWF high DPS builds less good as the best way to kill trash mob now is Vorpal or stat damage.

If others get better while you stay the same, you get worse. If you were at the top and suddenly got worse due to an update, others got better.

You know if I have a 60AC and some monk has a 70AC but we both are not getting hit except on a 20 who cares about the other 10AC.
If you believe so, I suggest that you roll a character that cares about AC.

Jeffywan
11-21-2008, 12:55 PM
That is not it.

Shields are not underpowered. S&B is. Making shield a slightly less worse sacrifice than what it was won't address the issue.
Now I believe you are being vauge, if the diffrence between S&B and TWF is the diffrence between an additional weapon or a shield and a shield is underpowered in comparison to a weapon, can you claim shields are not underpowered, you need to provide support for that advocacy. Furthermore you have once again ignored the example of a practical fix and have diverted commenting on it towards a definitional argument. I posted this because I am going to enjoy the game either way, I would prefer playing S&B but currently feel that the game heavily favors TWF. If there is somthing in development for shields I will happily hold out for it, but if not I think I will start collecting more shroud ingredients for a second weapon. But I feel if I would like to see a change it is important to put ideas out there, not just complain that I don't like the way part of the game is.
Think of it this way if you make someone who enjoys peanut butter and jelly sandwichs a PB&J and they say they don't like it and offer you no explination, you really can't do much for them. But if they say thank you for this PB&J, you know I would like to try one with Rasberry Jelly sometime rather then only having Grape Jelly, but thanks and if Grape is all you have, I will make do but I really like your PB&J and would eat more of them if you also made them with Rasberry Jelly.
I am trying to have a discusion about what it is we as a community would like to see since it seems based on this thread most people agree S&B needs some love. So engage, disagree, etc. but please provide feedback on the ideas or if you don't like them present your own ideas rather then focus on definitional subtles that really mean nothing, sure you may want rasberry perserves rather then Jelly but lets look at the fact that we both want rasberry and then maybe discuss the jelly or perserves issue in conjunction with the main issue rather then instead of.



No. To decide what is effective you have to compare yourself to other players and to the mobs.

The mobs influence what is good and what is not. However, what the possible solutions to the treats are all compared one to another to determinate the good from the bad. For example, the high HP of Module 6 and higher trash mobs has made DPS irrelevant to get rid of them. So, regardless of your DPS, you won't get rid of them quickly. That made non-TWF high DPS builds less good as the best way to kill trash mob now is Vorpal or stat damage.

If others get better while you stay the same, you get worse. If you were at the top and suddenly got worse due to an update, others got better.

You talked about an update where the nature of mobs changed not the nature of equipment. It was due to the mob change (more HP) that the standing amoungst players changed. You did explain the roll equipment played in the change but it was in relation to the mobs not in relation to previouos equipment. I believe my point that it is the mobs not the other players that impact what is good or not still stands and is in facted supported by your example.



If you believe so, I suggest that you roll a character that cares about AC.

Suggesting I roll up a character that cares about AC hardly answers my analysis of how in all intensive purposes a 60 and 70 AC are = in a fight when it takes 20 to hit either.

artvan_delet
11-21-2008, 12:56 PM
"Shields are not underpowered. s/b is."

I don't agree. If you can put +3 additional con, extra healing, or +4 AC on a second weapon for TWF, then shields are underpowered. You can't get anything approaching a second greensteel weapon on any current shield. Making it "slightly less worse sacrifice" - make it no sacrifice.

RigorAdar
11-21-2008, 01:23 PM
It took me awhile to wrap my head around what borror0 was saying.

TWF should equall THF.
TWF gets more attacks and THF get glancing blows and higher base dmg, so they come pretty close to equalling out with the exception that you can have 6 higher AC with TWF.

TWF and THF should equall S&B. Here is the discrepancy. S&B gets fewer attacks and far less dps for the trade off of having less AC.
In order for them to balance they need a huge boost to damage or AC, or the reverse.
TWF and THF need to have damage or AC reduced. AC seems to be preferred way of reducing for balance and stopping inflation

Going back and nerfing shroud weapons that give a +4 ac is a horrible idea without having a method of deconstructing GS.

Giving a massive shield bonus to AC leads to more AC inflation leads to even more loss of "moderate" AC builds.

Nerfing Icy Raiments angers some people but lowers current AC max.

Nerfing Monk multi-class wis bonus angers some people but lowers current AC max.

Nerfing Tempest 2AC bonus angers some people but lowers current AC max.

I would also take out any Shield wand over 1 min to make that a more situational bonus to lower current AC max.

Borror0
11-21-2008, 02:56 PM
I don't agree. If you can put +3 additional con, extra healing, or +4 AC on a second weapon for TWF, then shields are underpowered.
Not really.

Maybe that shields are underpowered compared to an off-hand weapon, but would you say that is the problem? Or would you say that the problem is more due to sacrificing around 50-60% of your DPS for less AC? I would bet on the latter, but that is just me. I could be wrong.

Improving shields won't fix the imbalance.

Borror0
11-21-2008, 03:12 PM
Now I believe you are being vauge, if the diffrence between S&B and TWF is the diffrence between an additional weapon or a shield and a shield is underpowered in comparison to a weapon, can you claim shields are not underpowered, you need to provide support for that advocacy.
Believing that the difference between S&B and TWF is what you gain from the shield versus the weapon is incorrect.

There are multiple factors. Monk splash being one of them. The power of the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting is another. Icy Raiment as well.

please provide feedback on the ideas or if you don't like them present your own ideas rather then focus on definitional subtles that really mean nothing
Did you read the whole thread?

I guess this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1935707#post1935707) got lost somewhere between post #2 and post $4.:rolleyes:

I believe my point that it is the mobs not the other players that impact what is good or not still stands and is in facted supported by your example.

Imagine two TWF builds. The first one can deal 10,000 damage per seconds. Is that good?

That totally depends. If the second can deal 10,000,000 damage per picoseconds, the first one is kinda lame. No?


Suggesting I roll up a character that cares about AC hardly answers my analysis of how in all intensive purposes a 60 and 70 AC are = in a fight when it takes 20 to hit either.
My comment meant you were uninformed about the reality of AC in high level content if you believe an AC of 60 only gets hit on a natural 20.

There is a reason AC higher than 60 is achieved.

artvan_delet
11-21-2008, 03:12 PM
Not really.

Maybe that shields are underpowered compared to an off-hand weapon, but would you say that is the problem? Or would you say that the problem is more due to sacrificing around 50-60% of your DPS for less AC? I would bet on the latter, but that is just me. I could be wrong.

Improving shields won't fix the imbalance.

Improving shields won't fix the imbalance, but would you agree that improving shields will help fix the imbalance? Not the only way, or the exclusive way, just an additional way to improve balance.

Borror0
11-21-2008, 03:16 PM
[...] but would you agree that improving shields will help fix the imbalance?
I will tell you what I once told to Aesop...


To represent that with an image, picture a balance.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:iPMLtTtRkR8oCM:http://www.retrouversonnord.be/fichiers_liens/balance3.jpgf

Now, when the left side is equal to the right side, there is balance. Everyone is happy. The situation a few modules ago was leaning toward TWF, but a few bonuses to S&B would have brang the two together. However, Module 6 & 7 totally screwed any possibility of balance. To represent that with an image, Turbine added an elephant to the balance.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:bvWkPcgwhpSFbM:http://www.simpsoncrazy.com/gallery/images/PinkElephant.gif

In other words, there is clearly no balance between the two. Quite honestly, anyone arguing that S&B and TWF are balanced is either incredibly misinformed or has weird priorities. What you are trying to do is to fix it by adding Lego block on balance in order to restore balance.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:xXuf1EWM68H14M:http://www.mmocrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/lego.jpg

But, there is a limit to how many Lego blocks you can make fit on the balance. Back to DDO, that means time available for developers to address the problem, how powerful should gear/feats/enhancements be, the number of feat/spells/APs/skill points a character have and probably a few other constraints.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:6RPMxx_qu76AgM:http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2008/05/100-foot-lego-tower.jpg

So, wouldn't the easiest solution be to remove the elephant?! 'Cause right now, improving shields would be just a couple of Lego blocks thrown on the balance.

krud
11-22-2008, 06:33 AM
Not really.

Maybe that shields are underpowered compared to an off-hand weapon, but would you say that is the problem? Or would you say that the problem is more due to sacrificing around 50-60% of your DPS for less AC? I would bet on the latter, but that is just me. I could be wrong.

Improving shields won't fix the imbalance.

And how is increasing S&B dps by some arbitrary 1.25 str bonus (as you once suggested) not a change to core rules? Why not fix S&B by adding a bunch of little things. Why does it have to be fixed by only one approach - dps. You avoid having to concentrate on one major change which may be too powerful, and might have to be to nerfed. Crafted shields, while not addressing the dps issue, does provide other incentives for continued shield use. Just because it doesn't address the dps issue does not mean it can't be a useful addition; additions that are no more powerful than effects already found on other items currently in game.

S&B are typically more defensive builds, so concentrating solely on increasing dps may not satisfy S&B. They still want useful AC, and if no one else is going to get an AC nerf, then why not give s&b something to boost AC? Plus, S&B would still like to obtain some of those cool effects everyone else can get. Just put those effects on a piece of equipment that they use every day. Right now, except for one hound shield, there is nothing else. Can you think of any TWF that only runs with the same one or two weapons that everyone else has all of the time?

Even if you can't bring s&b up to par with TWF, at least give them some more options.


So, wouldn't the easiest solution be to remove the elephant?! 'Cause right now, improving shields would be just a couple of Lego blocks thrown on the balance.

ideally that would be the best solution, but given turbine's track record, and the uproar ANY kind of nerf inevitably brings, do you think they will remove the elephant? i doubt it.

Since the unbalance is not caused exclusively by any one thing, the best approach is to slightly nerf and bring up the rest with lots of little boosts, many of which when combined in one way or another will provide a satisfactory fix. Icy raiments can be scaled back to +2 dodge bonus, still making it a useful item, lower the tempest AC bonus. The only major fix would have the be the monk splash wisdom AC bonus. Barb crit rage can apply to damage only. With those fixes in place, only smaller fixes to s&b can be implemented, of which shield crafting can be a part.

but i'm not holding my breath.

Borror0
11-22-2008, 08:04 AM
And how is increasing S&B dps by some arbitrary 1.25 str bonus (as you once suggested) not a change to core rules?
I never opposed to core rule changes. Did I?!

Why not fix S&B by adding a bunch of little things. Why does it have to be fixed by only one approach - dps. You avoid having to concentrate on one major change which may be too powerful, and might have to be to nerfed
Because it is more time consuming and pretty dangerous.

It is more time consuming as Turbine got to design, code and playtest way more feature than if they would pinpoint the problem and fix it. As they say, the shortest way between two points is a straight line. There is no point in taking a detour to get to the same place, unless there is a reason to. (ie killing two birds with one stone)

It is dangerous as it is much harder to evaluate the end result. Analyzing the consequences of a single change is pretty hard. Analyzing the consequences of multiple chances AND how they will interact between themselves is a nightmare. Especially if they don't address the issue directly, but rather indirectly. Then, it is nearly impossible and any success was more luck than a careful analysis.

However, I did not say that DPS was the sole problem.

In a way it is, as the whole problem is the balance between survivability and DPS. So, yes, fixing the DPS dealt by S&B, while not the only thing to correct, is crucial. DPS is what makes this game go round. Time and survivability being the other most important factor. I emphasis on that: DPS is what makes this game go round. Even if you would make S&B much more survivable than they are now, it won't totally address the issue. It will address the most pressing issue, which is that non-S&B fighting allows you to reach higher AC than S&B, but before that problem showed up there was still an imbalanced. S&B was already the redheaded step-child of DDO.

If I suggest to add DPS along with fixing the AC imbalance is that survivability/DPS isn't an accurate analysis. Even if a S&B character has a better damage dealt/damage taken ratio than both two-weapon fighting and two-handed fighting, it doesn't mean S&B will be more popular. While this ration is a good way to analyze the balance, ot is not perfect. Time is a factor too. Killing faster has its perks. Conversely, killing really slowly can be extremely boring. You got to factor that too and give S&B a little DPS bump.

Crafted shields, while not addressing the dps issue, does provide other incentives for continued shield use. Just because it doesn't address the dps issue does not mean it can't be a useful addition; additions that are no more powerful than effects already found on other items currently in game.


S&B are typically more defensive builds, so concentrating solely on increasing dps may not satisfy S&B.
I hope. It would be a mistake on many levels.

The game has to stay credible. If wearing a shield makes you a killing machine, there is something wrong.

krud
11-22-2008, 08:32 AM
The game has to stay credible. If wearing a shield makes you a killing machine, there is something wrong.

And how is a crafted shield going to unbalance s&b? what effects that are currently available on other items would be so overpowering if combined on a shield? heavy fort? +5 protect? +5 resist?

S&b never does a lot of dps vs twf, even in pnp, so any boost to s&b dps is gonna be completely arbitrary, and really have no solid basis other than "we just want to make it competive to TWF". Also, it still keeps an integral part of that fighting style way behind all the other items in game; namely the shield. It is sword & BOARD. wouldn't you want to make that other half of the equation meaningful?

Borror0
11-22-2008, 08:38 AM
And how is a crafted shield going to unbalance s&b?
Nice misquote. :)

S&b never does a lot of dps vs twf, even in pnp, so any boost to s&b dps is gonna be completely arbitrary, and really have no solid basis other than "we just want to make it competive to TWF".
That is called balance. It is desirable. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=159126)

wouldn't you want to make that other half of the equation meaningful?
The order to proceed to that is core balance issues first, fluff second.

I am not saying DDO couldn't use better shields. Just that it is a terrible way to bring balance to a game.

krud
11-22-2008, 09:22 AM
Nice misquote. :)

That is called balance. It is desirable. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=159126)
....If you define that S&B is about defense, THF about offense and TWF is about either decent AC with really good DPS or just pure DPS that will be slightly better in 1 vs 1 fights (definitions would have to be more complete than that, but I think this post is long enough like this), then you just got to stick to that and make sure no style comes significantly ahead of others.

It seems that S&B is about defense. As long as they can dish out ~2/3 the dps as TWF then they are roughly where they should be compared to PnP (in addition to nerfing some of the things that throw TWF AC out of whack). Bring up their dps to that range, plus give them a reason to hold that shield. How are you going to do that without giving them something like shield crafting? You can either add a bunch of new shields that accomplish roughly the same thing that a crafted shield can do, or let them craft shields. If you try to make it dps, then the only reason to hold a shield becomes purely asthetic, which is also a horrible way to fix things. I don't see how you can call a major portion of that fighting style simply fluff.

Borror0
11-22-2008, 09:53 AM
If you try to make it dps, then the only reason to hold a shield becomes purely asthetic, which is also a horrible way to fix things.
That's a straw man.

The reason for putting a shield one is greater survivability which is currently represented in the form of high AC. Or at least, it would be if Icy Raiment and monk splash would be toned down. Thus, it is not only aesthetic. There is a benefit to wearing a shield. The problem is that in order to wear a shield, you have to make a DPS sacrifice that is far too great for what you get.

krud
11-22-2008, 10:02 AM
That's a straw man.

The reason for putting a shield one is greater survivability which is currently represented in the form of high AC. Or at least, it would be if Icy Raiment and monk splash would be toned down. Thus, it is not only aesthetic. There is a benefit to wearing a shield. The problem is that in order to wear a shield, you have to make a DPS sacrifice that is far too great for what you get.

If a shield is for defense, then why is it too much include defensive effects like heavy fort, +5 resist, or +5 protection on it? All that does is consolidate existing benefits on one item, an item that is integral in a s&b build. How could that possibly be overpowering? run through the armor crafting bonuses and see if including shields in that mix would create hugely overpowered s&b characters. I don't believe it would.

I agree that they need to make AC useful for s&b again, but how? Will they ever nerf those things you talk about? Even if they do, is it going to be enough? You will still have to do something else for s&b. What better way than a shield. At least when you give shields a boost you don't run the risk of some other style somehow getting an unforeseen boost.

btw - roughly how much dps should s&b do in comparison to twf in order to bring balance? 50%, 67%, 80%?

Borror0
11-22-2008, 10:16 AM
If a shield is for defense, then why is it too much include defensive effects like heavy fort, +5 resist, or +5 protection on it?
Well, it will be very problematic in the way they will probably implement that. Unless they reevaluate the formula for randomly generated shield, which wouldn't be a bad idea by the way, I doubt it would be implemented in a way that would make it even harder for casual gamers to be decent S&B characters.

The reason I oppose "better shields", mostly, is because it's a bad idea given the current situation.

The gap is huge. Making them closer to be balanced is what should be done first. Then, this could be done if it is still not unbalancing. Waiting would also allow to create shields better adapted to the situation. Shortly put, doing this right now would either be a wasted effort and/or shun more casual gamers.

btw - roughly how much dps should s&b do in comparison to twf in order to bring balance? 50%, 67%, 80%?
I'd say around 70%, but quite honestly that would have to be playtested.

I could throw a random number like that but it is just that, a random number. We'll have to count on the guys on Mournland for that.

krud
11-22-2008, 10:55 AM
Well, it will be very problematic in the way they will probably implement that. Unless they reevaluate the formula for randomly generated shield, which wouldn't be a bad idea by the way, I doubt it would be implemented in a way that would make it even harder for casual gamers to be decent S&B characters.

The reason I oppose "better shields", mostly, is because it's a bad idea given the current situation.

The gap is huge. Making them closer to be balanced is what should be done first. Then, this could be done if it is still not unbalancing. Waiting would also allow to create shields better adapted to the situation. Shortly put, doing this right now would either be a wasted effort and/or shun more casual gamers.

I'd say around 70%, but quite honestly that would have to be playtested.

I could throw a random number like that but it is just that, a random number. We'll have to count on the guys on Mournland for that.

To achieve that we need to increase one handed attack rates by ~20% to put it at 67% of the TWF attacks (the PnP ratio). Given that, and a nerf to some aspects of TWF AC (monk splash and IR), you still have ignored shields for a very long time. You have crafted armor already. Let's say you allow shields to be included. You have yet to show how that would be a bad idea, other than saying "it's a bad idea given the current situation." Please show how. What bonuses that can be put on armor would throw s&b out of whack if shields were thrown into the mix? even after they get a boost to dps? I do not see it as any worse than 2 crafted shroud weapons.

Borror0
11-22-2008, 11:23 AM
To achieve that we need to increase one handed attack rates by ~20% to put it at 67% of the TWF attacks (the PnP ratio).
The PnP ratio between TWF DPS and S&B DPS?! There is no such things at this.

You have yet to show how that would be a bad idea, other than saying "it's a bad idea given the current situation." Please show how.
I can't explain that easily without using some silly example. My apologies for this.

Imagine you got a beaker full of sulfuric acid 18 mol/L.
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:gAYssN03KNFYUM:http://clipart.peirceinternet.com/png/beaker2.png
You have no idea of the amount of water that is contained in the glass of water. However, you are obligated to empty it's content within a 100 mL graduated cylinder and you hope you won't spill the content.
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Sj3G8XFbcjyOqM:http://www.cspi.qc.ca/pat/sap/scnat/estomac/image/c1v1.jpeg
Do you agree you are more likely to not spill the content if it is empty prior to emptying the content of the beaker?

It's the same for balancing. You do the bigger part first. Then, you take care of the smaller adjustments.

Secondly, it's also an availability question. I doubt I need to explain that part though.

RigorAdar
11-22-2008, 12:44 PM
The imbalance doesnt come from Heavy armor wearing S&B and TWF's. the imbalance comes from robe and outfit wearers vs heavy armor wearers.

Dwarven Fighter
-----------S&B------------------------TWF

Base-------10--------------------------10
24 Dex------7---------------------------7
DT Armor---15--------------------------15
Prot 5-------5---------------------------5
Nat 4--------4---------------------------4
Insight-------4---------------------------4
Chatt Ring---3---------------------------3
Chaos Gd----2---------------------------2
CE----------5---------------------------5
Dodge-------1---------------------------1
TWD--------0----------------------------1
Twr Sd------9----------------------------0
Alchm Sd----1----------------------------0
Alchm Ar-----1---------------------------1
________________________________________
-------------66--------------------------58
Shield Spell---0---------------------------4
_________________________________________
-------------66--------------------------62

Without a shield clicky the spread between AC's is pretty big. 8 points is significant depending on the mobs to hit. The shield click narrows the gap by 50% which is to much IMHO. Now when you compare these numbers against a Monk/Ranger niether holds a candle in terms of AC.

The solution lies not in raising shield AC but in figuring out how to lower robe/outfit AC.

xberto
11-22-2008, 04:45 PM
IMO, A shield is primarily a defensive tool so any attempt to make a S&B match TWF or THF DPS output is dumb.
As a defensive tool, I hope the future, high level shields might include things like:
-High level Energy resists
-Multiple Energy resists
-Passive DR

krud
11-22-2008, 09:46 PM
The PnP ratio between TWF DPS and S&B DPS?! There is no such things at this. I didn't say DPS, I said attacks. You can easily compare the number of attacks per round. In PnP the TWF gets 1.6x the number of attacks/round of a one hander, or THF. The DDO ratio should fall roughly in the same neighborhood. Where the dps figures after that is dependent on other factors, but if the number of attacks are balanced as they should be, then additional adjustments may not be necessary.


I can't explain that easily without using some silly example. My apologies for this.

Imagine you got a beaker full of sulfuric acid 18 mol/L.
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:gAYssN03KNFYUM:http://clipart.peirceinternet.com/png/beaker2.png
You have no idea of the amount of water that is contained in the glass of water. However, you are obligated to empty it's content within a 100 mL graduated cylinder and you hope you won't spill the content.
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Sj3G8XFbcjyOqM:http://www.cspi.qc.ca/pat/sap/scnat/estomac/image/c1v1.jpeg
Do you agree you are more likely to not spill the content if it is empty prior to emptying the content of the beaker?
you are correct, it is a very silly example. especially considering I am a chemist. Any good chemist would just grab a ruler and estimate the volume of liquid in the beaker before attempting anything that stupid.


It's the same for balancing. You do the bigger part first. Then, you take care of the smaller adjustments.

Secondly, it's also an availability question. I doubt I need to explain that part though.
agreed, but i don't see any indication that any of the balances you advocate are even close to being considered, or will be well received. This game would be better if many of your suggestions were implemented. I am a firm believer that nerfs can be good for the game, however, given turbine's past they probably won't (or at best implement watered down versions). In that light I believe boosting shields is a viable alternative.

Xyfiel
11-22-2008, 10:18 PM
Borror0(and a few others),

you are still stuck on this twf, icy, monk splashing, high dps/ac is all directly related and overpowered. I already explained once that they are not all inclusive to each other and putting them all together in these threads is going to get a nerf that will be too much and PO a lot of people.

Every time that happens, we lose a chunk of players. I agree something has to be done, but at least fix the actual problems not the perceived ones based on cookie cutter fotm builds. Web with no str check and worked on everything, yeah some people got mad but it was overpowered. PK had no will save, yeah overpowered needed fixed. Evasion in heavy armor, original HV, etc were all overpowered.


Now lets go over what the perceived problems are:

1) THF is behind twf dps - adding effects to glancing blows and new Prc bonuses

2) Crit rage - becoming an prc only enhancement(long suspected this, still sure of it)

3) Tempest - being reworked and bug should get fixed

4) Fighters/Paladins have lower dps -
a) they are getting their prc's, which helps a lot for customization and specialization
b) they are not suppose to do barb/ranger(fe) dps
c) Rangers getting both combat masteries is overpowered, made up by range being
way behind on dps
d) Lack of enemy variety at end game gives a bonus to Rangers due to FE
e) effects(songs, etc) give double dps to twf, see 1) for thf
f) twf/thf costs 3 feats, it should give a dps increase compared to s&s not
requiring any feats

5) Unarmored ac is higher then armor/shield ac -
a) inflated abilities compared to static armor/shield enhancements
b) monk wisdom bonus, this requires multiclassing and having enough wisdom to
benefit from it. if this is made based on monk level, divine grace should be also.
This in itself is not overpowered, it requires sacrifices. We don't know what the
pure class enhancements are yet or what the raid item bonus is for those level
20 enhancements, don't pass judgement on it without having the full info.
c) icy rainments, has its cons compared to DT armor. It still is the best if you are
only interested in max ac. This is not isolated to twf though, it can be worn with
thf also.

On to how to fix the problems:
4) c) Make Rangers choose a mastery, improve ranged combat, add animal companion
even if it is just a summoned pet.
4) d) stop making all the major enemies fall into 3-4 types.
4) f) add more shield feats/enhancements that increase s&s damage. Feat to add
shield into melee chain, enhancements to increase damage, allow imp crit
bludgeon to work, imp crit piercing on spiked shields, add more named shields
5) a) since ability inflation has already been slowed down, the next option is to make
feats/enhancements to increase armor/shield ac. Shield crafting helps also.
5) c) again, feats/enhancements/named items can even this out

Fighters are versatile combantants, they don't do max dps, stop asking for it
Paladins are holy warriors, they don't do max dps either, enjoy their other abilities.
Play to your classes strength's and stop trying to have it all. Not every melee char needs to have equal dps/ac. Although we can increase variety, customization, fun factor, and bring us all into a harmonious balance. All else fails, blame Stashy.

Alcides
11-22-2008, 10:49 PM
I still think the S&B vs TWF dilemma can be fixed merely by allowing the dodge rituals to be applied a maximum of 4 times to armor and shields respectively. Eladrin has already stated that dodge rituals of the same magnitude do not stack anyway, and it would lessen the value of the +4 dodge bonus of icy raiment a slight amount.

Borror0
11-23-2008, 01:09 AM
I didn't say DPS, I said attacks.
Aye. However, DPS != attacks. Even if the ratio would come closer to each other, we wouldn't be have the same ration in DPS which is what we should be worried about.


Any good chemist would just grab a ruler and estimate the volume of liquid in the beaker before attempting anything that stupid.
Agreed, but Chemistry is an exact science with correlations in the area of 0,9999. Balancing is something way more subjective.

You can't be as sure of what you do. The incertitude is way higher.

In that light I believe boosting shields is a viable alternative.
I believe it's too weak to be worth it.

Whatever is attempted, whether it is my suggestions or something else, it has to be stronger than shields should be powerful. (Besides, balancing through gear is always a bad idea. See here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1932496#post1932496) for why.) Then, after the gap has been closed. After it becomes less obvious that S&B is lacking behind, shields may be a good way to do it for as long as they as easily available and vary in strength and effects. The way would be, to my eyes, a revision of the randomly generated shields so that they can hold more powerful enchantments than they can now. Making Mithril less rare would also be required to avoid all of it to be just another wafstede effort.

Borror0
11-23-2008, 02:15 AM
I already explained once that they are not all inclusive to each other and putting them all together in these threads is going to get a nerf that will be too much and PO a lot of people.
It is not because they are inclusive to each other, but because of how they interact well together.

The problem is that having no armor on is better than having one on from an AC perspective. The problem is that wearing no shield is better than wearing a shield perspective. The problem is that high Dexterity is synergistic with these two other problems. The problem is that two -weapon fighting, the best of all fighting style from a DPS perspective, can gain from all of these with very little sacrifices.

Little problems add up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQK21572oSU), creating something uglier.

I am not asking for a nerf of TWF, but rather of these little problems tat add together.

I agree something has to be done, but at least fix the actual problems not the perceived ones based on cookie cutter fotm builds.
That is actually what I am doing.

THF is behind twf dps - adding effects to glancing blows and new Prc bonuses
Aye. That is something I have subscribed to in the past and still do. Also, Eladrin has announced today (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=1941039#post1941039) that this was going to happen.

Crit rage - becoming an prc only enhancement(long suspected this, still sure of it)
Honestly, Critical Rage wouldn't be as overpowered if it wouldn't be of WoP being this good.

Lowering mobs' HP is the way to go one that one.

Tempest - being reworked and bug should get fixed
If Tempest I would be changed to a shield bonus being improved at each rank, it would go a long way into fixing that.

It would also fix the bug. so, killing tow birds with one stone.

Fighters/Paladins have lower dps
That is much less of an issue as what you may think it is.

The real culprit here is S&B DPS. Even if we up the DPS dealt by fighters and paladins, it is still not worth it.

Unarmored ac is higher then armor/shield ac
This is the biggest issue at the moment. This is what makes the situation totally riddiculous.


Make Rangers choose a mastery, improve ranged combat, add animal companion even if it is just a summoned pet.
Honestly, I don't see that as a major problem.

As for animal companion, the game is better without them. I hope they skip them for druids as well.

Stop making all the major enemies fall into 3-4 types.
Agreed. I have been talking about this since module 6 where mobs where nearly all Evil Outsiders...

Add more shield feats/enhancements that increase s&s damage.
You got to be careful though as you have pointed out earlier at at point 4 f), it is one of S&B's strength to require less enhancements and feats to be effective. We got to be careful to not change that. Changes should go into that direction. Into making it easier to making S&B the fighting style that requires to be the least spec'd into.

Since ability inflation has already been slowed down, the next option is to make feats/enhancements to increase armor/shield ac.
Sorry. I disagree to this point. IMO, the way to fix this is to tone down the power of monk splash.

Leaving it to stronger ones, but weaken the power of the splash. It is currently way more powerful than it should be. Also, could you explain what you mean by "since ability inflation has already been slowed down" because I personally don't see that. As for using shield crafting to fix this, check this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1932496#post1932496) for why it is a bad idea.

Again, feats/enhancements/named items can even this out
Check previous points for why I disagree.

Fighters are versatile combantants, they don't do max dps, stop asking for it.
Xyf, that is misunderstanding both the issues and the requests.

Fighters currently don't have anything to balance for their lower DPS. Secondly, fighters don't want max DPS. However, they are quite behind barbarians and rangers when it comes to DPS. Barbarians have received an upgrade in Module 3.3 and Module 4.0 putting, at the time, at the top. Rangers got their love in Module 6.0 in the form of Tempest and Ram's Might.

Fighters didn't. They aren't even close to be in the same ballpark as either of them, when they should be much closer while not as powerful.

Paladins are holy warriors, they don't do max dps either, enjoy their other abilities.
Paladins didn't have, until much recently, anything to excuse their lower DPS.

Now, a lot of their improvement will have to come in the form of spells. This is, IMO, how to help them best in the long run.

Play to your classes strength's and stop trying to have it all. Not every melee char needs to have equal dps/ac. Although we can increase variety, customization, fun factor, and bring us all into a harmonious balance.
If you addressing to me, you wasted your time. I already knew that. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=159126)

All else fails, blame Stashy.
Thanks for pointing that out. I almost forgot.

It's all Stash's fault.;)

Xyfiel
11-23-2008, 09:37 AM
Risia for Mod4 had stat +4 enhancements but were removed. So inflation was considered back then. Not much, but something.

Wisdom bonus to AC, Charisma bonus to saving throws, bow str are similiar abilities. How do you feel about limiting Divine Grace to Paladin level? Or bow str to Ranger level? How about divine/arcane wand usage to class level?
It is a key ability of the class, it isn't the only class that gets one. It has sacrifices that come with it. There is nothing wrong with it incomparison to other class abilities.
Armor/Shield ac maxes out at level 8 while abilities and bracers continue to grow to 16+. Make options to increase armor/shield ac not remove a core ability. You will limit build options and remove a core part of the Monk if you get them to do this.

At this point I am certain we want the same end product, we just have 2 ways of getting there. I will disagree with you forever about removing a dnd ability when other options are available.

Borror0
11-23-2008, 10:21 AM
Wisdom bonus to AC, Charisma bonus to saving throws, bow str are similiar abilities. How do you feel about limiting Divine Grace to Paladin level? Or bow str to Ranger level? How about divine/arcane wand usage to class level?
I know what you mean, but it is simply too powerful as it is.

Compare that to Rage or Inspire Courage that progresses with time. +5 to AC for 1 level plus a couple of points in Wisdom? That's a joke. Turbine have nerfed Aura of Good back in Module 4.0 for less than that. +5 AC, Xyfiel, is way too much. I know that is the way it is in 3.5 D&D, but it is way too powerful on its own.

You will limit build options and remove a core part of the Monk if you get them to do this.
That is totally not true.

Even if there was a cap on the amount of AC you could receive from that ability, there would still be a lot of players who would splash monks. From two levels of monk, you would still receive: two bonus feats, Monk Wisdom I, around +3 AC if centered (depending on the formula used) and Evasion. It is far from unattractive.

A two-weapon fighting build doesn't need to have higher AC than S&B to be interested in a monk splash.

krud
11-23-2008, 11:40 AM
Aye. However, DPS != attacks. Even if the ratio would come closer to each other, we wouldn't be have the same ration in DPS which is what we should be worried about. Everything else being equal the dps should be roughly the same ratio as the attack rate, except a little higher toward one-handed and THF due to the way strength bonuses apply with each style (and glancing blows w/THF). Any other dps difference is going to be due to build specifics. Aside from some unbalanced enhancements (or lack of enhancements in other cases) most of the remaining differences can be chalked up to character customization.

Simply giving an across the board dps boost to try to even things out, may be the simple (albeit unimaginative) fix, but it also starts to overshadow the customization aspect of character builds.

Borror0
11-23-2008, 11:46 AM
Everything else being equal the dps should be roughly the same ratio as the attack rate, except a little higher toward one-handed and THF due to the way strength bonuses apply with each style (and glancing blows w/THF). Any other dps difference is going to be due to build specifics. Aside from some unbalanced enhancements (or lack of enhancements in other cases) most of the remaining differences can be chalked up to character customization.
Not really.

Given the same +2 damage from, say, Weapon Specialization. Who do you think will gain most of it?

Tin_Dragon
11-23-2008, 12:17 PM
Offhand shield bashes in the attack sequence (maybe as 'hooks')

The monk thing? Limit the wis bonus based on monk levels (or percentage like the sorcs SP bonus) or make you have to be centered to get it.

why limit a Core rule?


bad idea.

making modifications to Core rules has really hurt this game, and caused more problems than fixed. Such as theh ghetto Crafting we have, the way most Meta Magic feats work. Then enhancement system vs REAL PrCs, faster casting for Sorcs when they already have 1000 more SP than wizards at 16, its just nuts.

Borror0
11-23-2008, 12:20 PM
why limit a Core rule?
In all your PnP games, you have never run into something grossly overpowered? :rolleyes:

krud
11-23-2008, 12:44 PM
Not really.

Given the same +2 damage from, say, Weapon Specialization. Who do you think will gain most of it?

a twf will gain as much as the difference in attack rate (or 1.6 times if the attack rates were balanced as they should be). PnP ratio of attacks is 8 TWF for every 5 1HF. Assuming every attack hits, you'd gain +16 for TWF versus +10 for 1HF. Same ratio as the number of attacks. It's not disproportionately helping one over the other. It's balanced around the attack rate.

Borror0
11-23-2008, 12:47 PM
It's not disproportionately helping one over the other.
By itself, no. But small bonuses combine.

krud
11-23-2008, 01:02 PM
By itself, no. But small bonuses combine.

again, they are all applied in proportion to the attack rate. Balance the attack rates to where they should be and you get a similar balance in dps. Each hit, whether 1HF or TWF, will get the same bonuses (except offhand strength bonuses for TWF). It's the number of hits per minute that start to throw things out of whack.

Borror0
11-23-2008, 01:10 PM
How do you explain the far too great gap between S&B and THF then?;)

Xyfiel
11-23-2008, 01:19 PM
I go back to my first post:
We don't know what the pure class enhancements are yet or what the raid item bonus is for those level 20 enhancements, don't pass judgement on it without having the full info.

You are passing judgement on monk wis bonus from splashing. You want it nerfed yet you don't know what the full sacrifice is. You can't disagree with this, you are saying it is overpowered right now, knowing that another option is coming, yet still want it nerfed.

It by itself is not too powerful. The fact armor/shield wearers don't have other means to increase ac is. At level 8 you can wear your max armor/shield, and +4 bracers(mage armor also). We can now wear +8 bracers. That is a 4 ac difference in favor of no armor. Lets remedy that problem with some feats/enhancements/named items.
You can completely factor out twf, monk splash, icy on this one problem. It has nothing to do with it. You can get this bonus without doing any of those 3 things.

You are stuck on this argument that twf and monk wis ac are the culprits of the problem when they are actually byproducts of the problem not the root of it.
Icy I have no defense for, but think going below a 2 ac on it would make it pointless.

The devs have decided that raid/crafting armor wouldn't go over +5 but rather give other abilities. So you can have more abilities but end up losing on AC. So armor/shield wearers after level 8 are unable to increase ac. This doesn't put the problem on twf and monk splashing, it puts it on the armor/shield setup. Give the ability to increase armor/shield ac, and this whole issue is solved.

Borror0
11-23-2008, 01:50 PM
We don't know what the pure class enhancements are yet or what the raid item bonus is for those level 20 enhancements, don't pass judgement on it without having the full info.
First of all, it doesn't work that way Xyfiel.

Neither I or you can talk about the future with 100% accuracy. We can only judge now and conclude that it will be somewhat similar in the future. Using the logic you suggest using, there should be not a single thread about class balance on the forums. We haven't seen the "end of the game" yet.Then, perhaps they are going to add feats so that they will fix it, Then...

Secondly, if level 20 enhancements are powerful enough to discourage you to take a level of monk in its current form, we will be facing issues far greater than how overpowered monk's AC bonus is at the moment. There would be simply no reason to multiclass. I know I don't need to explain to you how bad for the game it would be to make it unappealing to multiclass.


It by itself is not too powerful. The fact armor/shield wearers don't have other means to increase ac is. At level 8 you can wear your max armor/shield, and +4 bracers(mage armor also). We can now wear +8 bracers. That is a 4 ac difference in favor of no armor.
...not really.

+5 Fullplate: +13 Armor bonus
+8 Armor Bracer: +8 Armor bonus
--Advantage: S&B, with +5 more AC

+5 Mithril Tower Shield: +9 Shield bonus (+1 Alchemical bonus)
Shield spell: +4 Shield bonus
--Advantage: S&B, with +5 more AC. (+1)

Chaosgarde: +2 Dodge bonus
--Advantage: S&B, with +2 Dodge bonus

Two-Weapon Defense: +1 untyped bonus
--Advantage: TWF, with +1 untyped.

Dexterity (w/ Tower Shield): +5 to +7
Dexterity (unarmored): +7 to +17
--Advantage: Unarmored, with bonus varying from +2 to +10

However, add in:
+4 Dodge (Icy Raiment)
+5ish Wisdom modifier to AC
+1 Centered
+2 Tempest I
+X Dexterity

That is where the problem is.

Lets remedy that problem with some feats/enhancements/named items.
Move up a few posts to see my reply to that very statement. :)

You are stuck on this argument that twf and monk wis ac are the culprits of the problem when they are actually byproducts of the problem not the root of it.
Show me how that is.

Give the ability to increase armor/shield ac, and this whole issue is solved.
It is not solved, it is moved to another problem (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1932496&postcount=17). That is not any better.

Turial
11-23-2008, 05:15 PM
I still think the S&B vs TWF dilemma can be fixed merely by allowing the dodge rituals to be applied a maximum of 4 times to armor and shields respectively. Eladrin has already stated that dodge rituals of the same magnitude do not stack anyway, and it would lessen the value of the +4 dodge bonus of icy raiment a slight amount.

Dodge bonuses from items of equal magnitude do not stack. That is different from dodge rituals of the same magnitude not stacking, specifically as the alchemical armor ritual works with the alchemical shield ritual and they are of the same magnitude.

In your example +4 alchemical dodge could be given to both the armor and IR as well as shields. That would not change anything except push the maximum AC obtainable even higher.

Tin_Dragon
11-23-2008, 09:45 PM
In all your PnP games, you have never run into something grossly overpowered? :rolleyes:

in the 3.5 Core books, not at all. When you get into splat books, yes. 3.0 had issues for sure, like keen and improved crit stacking, and a nasty trick with Poison bags and rogues. But 3.5 balanced well in the Core rules. Since that is the ruleset DDO was supposed to be based on, I see no reason to nerf/limit it when there are so many OTHER issues that are far more pressing.

Xyfiel
11-23-2008, 09:58 PM
First of all, it doesn't work that way Xyfiel.

Neither I or you can talk about the future with 100% accuracy. We can only judge now and conclude that it will be somewhat similar in the future. Using the logic you suggest using, there should be not a single thread about class balance on the forums. We haven't seen the "end of the game" yet.Then, perhaps they are going to add feats so that they will fix it, Then...

Secondly, if level 20 enhancements are powerful enough to discourage you to take a level of monk in its current form, we will be facing issues far greater than how overpowered monk's AC bonus is at the moment. There would be simply no reason to multiclass. I know I don't need to explain to you how bad for the game it would be to make it unappealing to multiclass.


...not really.

+5 Fullplate: +13 Armor bonus
+8 Armor Bracer: +8 Armor bonus
--Advantage: S&B, with +5 more AC

+5 Mithril Tower Shield: +9 Shield bonus (+1 Alchemical bonus)
Shield spell: +4 Shield bonus
--Advantage: S&B, with +5 more AC. (+1)

Chaosgarde: +2 Dodge bonus
--Advantage: S&B, with +2 Dodge bonus

Two-Weapon Defense: +1 untyped bonus
--Advantage: TWF, with +1 untyped.

Dexterity (w/ Tower Shield): +5 to +7
Dexterity (unarmored): +7 to +17
--Advantage: Unarmored, with bonus varying from +2 to +10

However, add in:
+4 Dodge (Icy Raiment)
+5ish Wisdom modifier to AC
+1 Centered
+2 Tempest I
+X Dexterity

That is where the problem is.

Move up a few posts to see my reply to that very statement. :)

Show me how that is.

It is not solved, it is moved to another problem (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1932496&postcount=17). That is not any better.

It does work that way. We know something is in development to increase the power of option 1, and you still want option 2 nerfed without having the info of what the increase is. Hypothetical situation:
Lets say we want Warchanter nerfed in comparison to virtuoso. We know virtuoso is getting improved in next mod. Do we still ask for Warchanter to be nerfed? No, we wait for the info and make decisions based on that.

It isn't about making multiclassing completely pointless, it is about balancing the pros/cons. We know there are 2 benefits to staying pureclass coming, which means taking a monk level has "more" sacrifices at level 20. Doesn't mean pointless, just less attractive. Yet you still want to nerf the splash even though it will be worth less in the future. Wouldn't it be better to wait to find out what the multiclass value is in mod9 before asking for changes?

I know the values of ac, that wasn't the point. The point was that armor/shield didn't increase after level 8 but anyone else could increase with a regular available item that had nothing to do with icy, twf, monk splash, high dex, tempest, etc. Therefore the problem lies with lack of armor/shield ac increase after level 8. Everything else continues to rise(except the shield spell). Why nerf everything else when you can improve the other 2?

You have yet to respond about divine grace. If they make wis bonus to ac monk level dependant is it ok to make divine grace paladin level dependant? Don't dance around the subject with rage and inspire courage talk. 2 very similiar abilities given with splashes, based off of abilities. Is it fair that paladin splashes get theirs while monk splashes won't? You don't want monk splashes having the best ac, I don't want paladin splashes having the best saves. It isn't fair to everyone else.

No matter how you address the wis problem, I will counter with the divine grace argument. I don't see anyway that that option benefits everyone.

PS: Monks already have a level dependant ac bonus.

spyderwolf
11-23-2008, 11:24 PM
QUOTE Borror0: Shields are not underpowered. S&B is.





you cant say shields aren't underpowered and then say s/b is underpowered. since shields are what is making it underpowered compared to the twf or thf . you come off sounding like an idiot when ya do.

Aesop
11-23-2008, 11:27 PM
QUOTE Borror0: Shields are not underpowered. S&B is.





you cant say shields aren't underpowered and then say s/b is underpowered. since shields are what is making it underpowered compared to the twf or thf . you come off sounding like an idiot when ya do.

Actually he's right in this regard. SHields are as powerful as they should be... its the related factors that make the style weak

DPS: S&B have less of it than they should relative to the game
AC: you can get more of it with TWF even strength based TWF are breaching the S&B high watermark
Mitigation: Damage mitigation is low relative to the other styles. Things like evasion make the classic S&B character relatively squishie seeming.

So all in all its not the Shields its the mechanics surrounding the Shields.

I've made my suggestions to improve all three of these aspects and posted most of it in this thread... I believe they would work to help balance the game significantly... though they are a big step.


Aesop

spyderwolf
11-23-2008, 11:39 PM
Actually he's right in this regard. SHields are as powerful as they should be... its the related factors that make the style weak

DPS: S&B have less of it than they should relative to the game
AC: you can get more of it with TWF even strength based TWF are breaching the S&B high watermark
Mitigation: Damage mitigation is low relative to the other styles. Things like evasion make the classic S&B character relatively squishie seeming.

So all in all its not the Shields its the mechanics surrounding the Shields.

I've made my suggestions to improve all three of these aspects and posted most of it in this thread... I believe they would work to help balance the game significantly... though they are a big step.


Aesop


s/b have less dps directly because they have a shield equipped that hasnt really been improved since the game started, whereas twf and thf have seen their gear options significantly increases with GS weapons. if you had GS shields with very nice effects like corrosive salt guards,disintigration guard , etc,etc. do you really think as many people would look at their dps are severely weaker. i dont really mind the ac aspect since as long as you can attain the ac that is needed it doenst matter if others can too. and since you can get to 69 non-dispellable ac *** s/b in fp i dont see ac as an issue personally. damage mitigation is another topic entirely since you can be s/b and have evasion. i wont argue evasion is better than no evasion. i just find it odd that someone is agaisnt anything that increases a shields viablity just because they think it wont make a big enough difference in their minds.

Borror0
11-24-2008, 12:50 AM
It does work that way. [...] we wait for the info and make decisions based on that.
Sorry Xyfiel, but it doesn't work that way.

Your analogy isn't correct. A more appropriate comparison would be: barbarians are overpowered. Should we complain about it and give suggestions even though they said they would try to address that issue in the following module that is a few months away. The following module will also include a cap increase.

Wouldn't it be better to wait to find out what the multiclass value is in mod9 before asking for changes?
Not at all.

As I have said before, if they make level 19 and 20 powerful enough to make it more attractive to not splash a level of monk on a AC spec'd character, we got a much greater problem than that. Do you know any AC character that would say no to 6 AC, two bonus feats and Evasion? Do you realize the power level 20 enhancements would have to be for that?

Xyfiel, your argument is an insult at Turbine. You expect them to:

Make a humongous mistake.
Not being able to analyze my request with the data that they have.

However, all of that is irrelevant. The bonus is so huge that it shouln't be even debated.

The point was that armor/shield didn't increase after level 8 but anyone else could increase with a regular available item that had nothing to do with icy, twf, monk splash, high dex, tempest, etc. Therefore the problem lies with lack of armor/shield ac increase after level 8.
Take your pick:

Balancing with gear is a bad idea.
The cap is so freaking huge it would require overpowered stuff.
Itemflation is bad.
The healthiest (read: less worse) way to do it would require a randomly generated loot. This means it would be a lot of work, but also, it would render anything currently exists pretty darn weak unless you intend to improve the raid loot as well. All in all, it isn't a bad idea to redesign the randomly generated loot system, however the modifications would make the game feel much less D&D-like.


You have yet to respond about divine grace. If they make wis bonus to ac monk level dependant is it ok to make divine grace paladin level dependant?
Simply because boosting saves isn't nearly as powerful as boosting AC.

Comparing them is like saying a Ferrari and a Lada are the sane. Yes, they are cars but...

Borror0
11-24-2008, 01:01 AM
in the 3.5 Core books, not at all.
:eek::rolleyes:

s/b have less dps directly because they have a shield equipped
Dealing less damage because you are wearing a shield doesn't make shields underpowered. It makes wearing a shield underpowered.

if you had GS shields with very nice effects like corrosive salt guards,disintigration guard , etc,etc. do you really think as many people would look at their dps are severely weaker.
Balancing through gear is a bad idea.

i dont really mind the ac aspect since as long as you can attain the ac that is needed it doenst matter if others can too.
...it matters because you are getting hit on lower than a 20.

i just find it odd that someone is agaisnt anything that increases a shields viablity just because they think it wont make a big enough difference in their minds.
Well, that is not solely the reason.

The logic used to get there is the following:

Decision to not add another overpowered piece of gear to the game.
Analysis of the changes needed to restore balance.
Conclusion that, if solely fixed by gear, it would require overpowered pieces of gear.
Idea rejected.

That better shields could be added when the gap is much smaller. Not now.

sephiroth1084
11-24-2008, 02:34 AM
Honestly, the gap between S&B and TWF is too multi-faceted to claim that introducing gear (shield GS crafting) to solve a portion of this issue is a bad idea. PART of the problem is that GS weapons are available to be dual-wielded by TWFs. Part of it is a matter of feats available for one style but not the other. Part of the issue is the way in which certain bonuses function with TWF (damage independent of a weapon becomes multiplied across the greater number of attacks in a TWF chain). And part of the issue is in how AC is generated for one group vs. the other--leaving the cap to shields and armor as normal bonus (+8 for FP, +2 for HSS and +4 for TS) + enhancement bonus (max of +5) while making stat-bumping items, enhancements and tomes relatively common, allows for tremendous imbalance in this regard that will ONLY widen as +4 and +5 tomes, better stat boosting enhancements, and ability boosting spells or items that stack with existing ones come into the game...and the bonus granted by shields and armor remains static from level 8 on.

Gear is a HUGE factor in this issue. At level 8 I can get a +5 mithral tower shield and a set of +5 mithral fp. At level 16 all that has changed is how much Dex I can get out of these, maybe, netting at most about a +4 increase in AC over 8 levels. Looking at TWF, my Dex and Wis both go up by 1 at level 9 with +4 stat items, but lets begin at 9 then for these guys. From level 8/9 to 16, you're looking at +2 to 1 or 2 stats (+1 or +2 AC) from standard items, +2 or +3 to one or two stats from tomes (+2 to +4 AC), inherent bonuses from shroud items (rarely used, but available to someone who wants AC badly) for another +1 to +2 AC, Icy Raiment (+4 AC), an insight shroud weapon, which while not contributing to the AC gap, does contribute to the DPS gap, another +2 in relevant ability score from class/race enhancements (+1 AC), 2 level-based stat bumps (+1 or +2 AC), AND availability of better armored bracers (up to +3 AC from what was available at level 8/9). So, while the S&B guy who somehow gets to a 24 Dex and has enough armor/shield masteries to get the full bonus goes up by less than 5 AC in 8 levels, the TWF (or Dex-based character) can go up by as much as +18 or so.

How is that NOT a gear issue? And we haven't looked at class abilities, feats, or any weapon-specific enhancements. Yes, part of the issue rests in the lack of shield specific abilities, but a large bit of it has to do with gear, clearly.

If shield crafting were available, it would, at the very least, allow S&B characters the chance to get the +4 Insight off of their weapon, allowing for slightly better DPS. There are currently many many more items in the game that benefit the Dex-based AC characters than there are for the shield users, and many are easier to obtain. Some really GOOD and useful and competitive shields and heavy (mithral heavy) armors need to be introduced--ones with more than a +1 difference from a standard item of its type.

Another option would be to change the way item levels function on armor and especially shields: it's all well and good for shields to be popping up with more abilities now, but who, at level 16, needs a +1 tower shield with Superior Devotion III on it? The problem with this system, is that you have to choose between a shield that offers a useful secondary or tertiary effect and one that bolsters you AC. I know that I vendor any shield I get in random loot with an ability on it, because, even without looking at the ability, I know that it will drop my AC.

spyderwolf
11-24-2008, 02:55 AM
borror0,you havent really stated why balancing the game through gear is bad other than your own personal opinions,yet you dismiss or just dont care about others personaly opinions on the same subject....no matter what is put in there will always be grinding invovles if for nothing else than the time between mods forces you to run the content over and over again, so jsut because you think them adding new gs shields would force people to grind (which you have the option of jsut not doing if you dont want )isnt a valid reason why it would be bad. id like to see a good reason why adding gear in that people actually want to see added would be bad for the game.

Xyfiel
11-24-2008, 02:56 AM
My analogy is correct. I am sorry you can't comprehend that. In fact we can use a current one.
Fighters/Paladins have prc's coming - fact
Tempest is considered overpowered in it's current state -fact
We don't know how powerful the new prc's are - fact(have some info so far)
No need to complain about tempest anymore until we see how the new prc's stack up against it. To say something is overpowered in comparison to knowledge we don't have is prejudice.

You keep twisting things to your perspective without stating all the givens.
It has been stated pure classes get a level 20 enhancement - fact
it has been stated new raid loot will stack with pure class enhancements - fact
you get evasion, but have to wear no armor -fact
you get more ac, but have to have more points in wisdom, meaning tomes, wearing wis item, higher starting wis.
you get more ac but have to not wear armor/shield and lose any abilities that can only be found on some armor/shields
you have to be lawful
you lose pure class enhancement
you lose stacking raid bonus with pure class enhancement

Stop making it sound like "poof" you got 6 more AC. There are many things that you must conform to to acquire it, and many things you lose out on for taking it.

Dont say I insulted Turbine. I never did. That is taking the conversation pretty low.
But to be fair, we can talk for a few days about their huge mistakes.

Saves isn't similiar to AC? I guess damage mitigation has a different definition in your dictionary. You are saying AC is more important then saves? That is why no one wants evasion right? Nobody in their right mind would splash just for a save based ability. No one would ever splash 2 paladin for a bonus to saves. No one would ever want Kardins eye, or boots of the innocent, or +5 cloak, or +5 on their dt armor, because we don't need good saves.


Let me reiterate some points:
Tempest is a prc that should be held in balance against other prcs.
Icy is an item that should be held in balance against other items.
Wisdom bonus to AC is a class ability that should be held in balance to other class abilities.

Stick to the imbalance, the lack of ability to increase shields/armor after level 8 and leave everything else out of it.(except Icy)

Borror0
11-24-2008, 04:36 AM
borror0,you havent really stated why balancing the game through gear is bad other than your own personal opinions
Balancing through gear is a bad idea because it assumes you have it.

Turbine has always and will always take in account the gear we possess. If you don't have it, you are left out. A few times in this thread, I linked to a post where I showed how huge the gap between grind and non-grind would get if we were to see a +4 AC bonus that S&B characters could get.

Maybe you don't realize it, but this is extremely bad for the game.

A huge selling point of nearly any MMO out there is the social interaction. Strengthening that interaction between players is a good thing and anything discouraging the interaction between players should be addressed as soon as possible. So, while I am OK with a certain amount of grinding and rewarding players that plays more, too much of grinding or a too great reward for grinding are bad things. It comes to a point where the games becomes highly newbie unfriendly and the more casual gamers are shun.

Grouping is so important in any MMO, but that is even truer in DDO as it is a very group-focused game. There are sufficiently enough reasons that you may dislike playing with someone else, no reason to add another one. You could love to play with someone. Cool attitude, awesome sense of humor, good player, strong chemistry between the two of you, etc. However, he or she does not possess the required bound loot for this. We can make a speech about good player > bad players, but there is a point where that becomes untrue for how big the gap is. A S&B character that can't make his AC matter is one.

...and that is not all. Even if that players gets a free pass because you love to play with him or her, he or she might not have fun. Not contributing to a group is boring to a lot of players. They are there to play. To face challenges. Feeling that you are a burden, a liability... is not any fun. If you don't believe me, go back to the paladin threads between Module 6 and 7. You will find a lot of witness of that desire to contribute with their lousy character or the frustration that it is so much harder to complete a quest with their paladin. Same could be said about bad gear.

Going back to what I said at the beginning, balancing through gear is bad because it assumes you got the gear. From a customization point of view, that is bad. Ironically, encouraging customization is the reason to nerf. By that I mean that balancing through gear is moves some of the customization issue from between playstyle to within the character's choice. (Tangent: The same can be said abut balancing through feats, by the way.) So, while there are more valid playstyles, they are more cookie-cutter than they were previously.

Balancing through a piece of gear means that you got to have that very piece into that very slot, otherwise you are screwed. Nothing you can do about it.

As we know, Turbine is going to balance according to the gear we have. No matter what gear they add, we aren't getting any stronger. Whether our AC is 420 or 42, what matters is how often we are going to get it. Not how high the number is. So, I ask you, why choose the option that has so many consequences?

spyderwolf
11-24-2008, 04:56 AM
because if gs sheilds were added it would most likely be in the shroud which is run by everyone and their grandma thus promoting social interactions since the shroud is a 12 man raid. and you gotta be either a) a complete a$$hole or b) 5 years old to shunned from the shroud since so many lfms for it are up each day. so how is that so terrible for grouping purposes? and dont take this as an attack on you. im just up later than normal so have some free time to debate stuff that in the end we have no control over if they do it or not. so really not much point in debating. but it is fun to debate so we will do it for no other reason than to do it. :)

Borror0
11-24-2008, 05:19 AM
No need to complain about tempest anymore until we see how the new prc's stack up against it. To say something is overpowered in comparison to knowledge we don't have is prejudice.
That is true to a certain extend, but not totally.

While the balance between each PrE is one thing to consider, there are bonuses that should not be permitted, ever. A lot of players agree that Critical Rage II is a huge mistake from Turbine. Eladrin even recognized it himself a while ago and just restated it in his OP of Kensai by saying critical threat range increases are something that will be rarely given and also something they will be extremely cautious about.

Why is that? Is it because of the DPS increase?! Not really, ranger was the DPS class of the last two modules. So, why were we still seeing complaints about it. That is because Critical Rage II is overpowered in itself. It's because it participates to a problem that is already there and make it worse. Same can be said about Tempest I.

By the way, I personally think that Tempest I should become a Shield bonus to AC and that Tempest II and III should improve that bonus.


You keep twisting things to your perspective without stating all the givens.
It has been stated pure classes get a level 20 enhancement - fact
it has been stated new raid loot will stack with pure class enhancements - fact
you get evasion, but have to wear no armor -fact
you get more ac, but have to have more points in wisdom, meaning tomes, wearing wis item, higher starting wis.
you get more ac but have to not wear armor/shield and lose any abilities that can only be found on some armor/shields
you have to be lawful
That sounds like a fine game. Can I do it too?

It has been stated that there are level 20 enhancements. However, common sense supposes that Turbine has kept them within decent power levels. Otherwise, it would discourage multiclassing and that would be a far greater problem than pure classes being unappealing.
Raid loot combining with level 20 enhancements has been poorly received because it sounds like a very stupid idea on many levels.
While Evasion requires you to wear light or no armor, that is not really a problem since you are probably dual wielding (although THF could work too) and wearing Icy Raiment.
Putting more Wisdom isn't really that high of a cost. Wearing a Wisdom item is easy now. Welcome to the Green Steel equipment days.
Loosing what is found on Armor and Shield is barely a cost that matters and if they were, it would be overpowered.
Being Lawful is barely a penalty.
You have higher AC than S&B characters can achieve, DPS twice better than their and you are better at Vorpal or stat damage.


Stop making it sound like "poof" you got 6 more AC.
Comparing the cost vs reward in each post I do is cumbersome and time consuming. I am assuming that anyone reading that is clever enough to know that both are and that they know I simply consider the cost to be way too small. While it is not "Poof, 6 more AC!", it is not that far.

Dont say I insulted Turbine. I never did.
Assuming that they cannot take into account the level 19-20 enhancements of melee classes into account when reading this conversation is an insult to their intelligence. e can only talk about what we know. We could hypothesize what could be there, but it would lead us where? If something(s) they will in Module 9 will totally change the metagame, they can take it into account quite easily.

By the way, that also means I do not think high level enhancements are the cure to the overpoweredness of monk splash as it would render any multiclassing unappealing and would just move the problem from "monk splash" to "overpowered high level enhancement"

No one would ever want Kardins eye, or boots of the innocent, or +5 cloak, or +5 on their dt armor, because we don't need good saves.

That is a straw man Xyfiel. I expect more of you.

It is not that an additional bonus to saving throw is undesirable. It is simply that between +5 to saves and +5 to Armor Class, the bonus to AC is way more appealing than the bonus to saving throws. Beside, splashing two levels of monk adds +2-3 to all of your saves and additional bonus to your will saves depending on your Wisdom that is most likely higher than what you planned it to be.

Icy is an item that should be held in balance against other items.
Wisdom bonus to AC is a class ability that should be held in balance to other class abilities.

Thing is, these loose at that and loose when you put them into the metagame.

While a piece can be fine on its own, what matters is how it interacts with others. Even played M:tG? That is how a card becomes overpowered. It is not by how powerful it is on its own that is usually problematic as R&D often squishes those card. It's how they interact with others to become something way more overpowered than it was intended to be.

Borror0
11-24-2008, 05:25 AM
because if gs sheilds were added it would most likely be in the shroud which is run by everyone and their grandma thus promoting social interactions since the shroud is a 12 man raid. and you gotta be either a) a complete a$$hole or b) 5 years old to shunned from the shroud since so many lfms for it are up each day. so how is that so terrible for grouping purposes?
Sorry if this is going to sound rude, I don't intend it to be but... that is not true.

That is only if everyone has your playstyle, and we know that is not the case. There are plenty of players out there without a single Green Steel item. That doesn't mean they don't enjoy the game. That only means they don't play as much as you or I. That is even truer for new players.

Think about the player that will level his S&B characters from level 1 to 20. His first character. What do you think his AC will be by level 16?

Borror0
11-24-2008, 05:41 AM
Honestly, the gap between S&B and TWF is too multi-faceted to claim that introducing gear (shield GS crafting) to solve a portion of this issue is a bad idea.
Let me restate my position on this to make it clearer:
"I do not believe that Green Steel crafting, or any other form of crafting, could solve the issue. Or, at least, I believe it should not as there would be bad consequences for reasons I have previously stated (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1942287#post1942287), at least twice (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1932496#post1932496). While I think shields could use some improvement I do not believe it should be done not as the gap is too great. It is hard to gauge the right power level these should have. They could be overpowering S&B when everything else is dealt with, or they could be underpowered and wind up being a wasted effort and a waste of time. While still getting us grinding."

Today, I came across an article called "How to Sneak Overpowered Cards past Development (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/dl39)" . It's about Magic the Gathering, but it can relate very well to DDO. It written by the evil twin of the usual writer of that column. He explains how to make cards that, while they seem OK at first glance, will end up being totally overpowered.

It's a nice read if you ever played MtG.

Aesop
11-24-2008, 05:50 AM
s/b have less dps directly because they have a shield equipped that hasnt really been improved since the game started, whereas twf and thf have seen their gear options significantly increases with GS weapons.

TWF was also improved with the implementation of GTWF which gives two extra attacks. TWF was also given an increase in effectiveness with the Tempest Enhancement which increase RoA by 10% as well as an AC boost. The synergy between TWF and Monk Splash improved the AC potential of TWF. THF will be receiving a boost come mod 9 to improve the effect of Glancing Blows to include some of the effects from the weapon used. GS Weapons are overpowered but that is not the sole reason. Trying to fix a problem with liberal application of more overpowered equipment merely makes that equipment a requirement. Thus limiting characters even more.



if you had GS shields with very nice effects like corrosive salt guards,disintigration guard , etc,etc. do you really think as many people would look at their dps are severely weaker.

Yes. Don't get me wrong. I am not totally against craftable shields per se.... but it would not fix the problems with the S&B combat style.

i dont really mind the ac aspect since as long as you can attain the ac that is needed it doenst matter if others can too. and since you can get to 69 non-dispellable ac *** s/b in fp i dont see ac as an issue personally.

except that a character designed around defense has less defense than a character designed around offense. I'm almost willing to let the higher AC go if there are other means of Damage Mitigation available to the Defensive character that doesn't require them to turn off their DPS totally... especially since they have almost 50% of the offense based characters potential DPS already.

damage mitigation is another topic entirely since you can be s/b and have evasion. i wont argue evasion is better than no evasion.

which requires lowering AC and/or increasing points put into Dexterity and would require even more stat distribution to make for an effective use of the ability in the first place as most S&B are Fighters and thus don't have Reflex as one of their "good" saves thus requiring more dedication to up that save and thus fewer resources to go around.

Again the Defensive Character has less defense than the offensive character. The more I read these discussions the more I think I'm on to something with my suggestions.


i just find it odd that someone is agaisnt anything that increases a shields viablity just because they think it wont make a big enough difference in their minds.

Actually he's against it because he sees inflation as a bad thing. There needs to be a range that allows for all player types to be effective and enjoy the game. Requiring a specific piece of gear is not the way to do it. It only leads to LFMs with silly statements like "Bring your WoP" "LEET players only" "have Wounding Weapons"



TWF have the best of all worlds and its not just due to the equipment (though that is a contributor) fixing a problem by adding gear is a dirty band aid and it will eventually fall off to reveal a festering wound that was created by not treating the problem and only covering it up.

Aesop

Borror0
11-24-2008, 05:55 AM
TWF have the best of all worlds and its not just due to the equipment (though that is a contributor) fixing a problem by adding gear is a dirty band aid and it will eventually fall off to reveal a festering wound that was created by not treating the problem and only covering it up.
LOL, I like the way you say it. :P

Very nice post Aesop. Thank you for covering a few points I didn't.:)

krud
11-24-2008, 07:00 AM
Sorry if this is going to sound rude, I don't intend it to be but... that is not true.

That is only if everyone has your playstyle, and we know that is not the case. There are plenty of players out there without a single Green Steel item. That doesn't mean they don't enjoy the game. That only means they don't play as much as you or I. That is even truer for new players.

Think about the player that will level his S&B characters from level 1 to 20. His first character. What do you think his AC will be by level 16?

True, but it also takes a grind to make a TWF with good AC. It doesn't come automatically either. Even a S&B grinder can get the chaosguard, dragontooth belt, or chattering ring which will add considerable AC over any new S&B player. The item-flation is not just limited to TWF, though it does favor TWF at the moment. Actually, that arguement probably does more to support adding some effects to shields to help the casual player.

I would hardly consider heavy fort, protection +5, greater elemental resistance, or resistance +4 as an extra bonus on a shield overpowering at all. It would add some worthwhile shields in the random loot table for s&b. All it does is help them consolidate item slots. What would they replace the freed slot that could possibly be overpowering? For those who are willing to grind, would a greensteel or dragontouched shield give them anything better than what other people have? It would only give them a similar option.

Even with the nerfs to icy raiments and monk splash, shields will still need something to keep them interesting and viable. Now, let's assume that icy raiments and monk splash never get nerfed (a very good possibility). Wouldn't giving shields some kind of boost make sense? You are arguing that s&b lags in AC, but reject anything that could help it. Your entire arguement against boosting shields hinges on those nerfs you keep bringing up. Without those nerfs all you are accomplishing is to keep s&b behind the curve.

I agree with you that we need those nerfs, but it's a very good possibility that none of that will ever happen. Then what? Regardless of how out of whack TWF AC is, they need to increase s&b dps (as well as THF), that is certain. Second, is to address the other half of s&b, which is also sorely lacking. However, what they don't need to do is to overcompensate with dps to make up for the lack of defense offered by shields. They can do both.

Borror0
11-24-2008, 07:24 AM
True, but it also takes a grind to make a TWF with good AC. It doesn't come automatically either.
Never said the opposite.

Actually, that arguement probably does more to support adding some effects to shields to help the casual player.
Not sure of what you mean here...

It would add some worthwhile shields in the random loot table for s&b.
...did I speak against that?

Of course not, but you have to redesign the random loot system and that is not an easy task. So far, all I have seen about it was suggestion from sirgog in a different thread and it didn't touch the shields if I remember correctly. I am not against a redesign of random loot, it is actually quite needed on many levels. However, it has to be calculated and we are in a metagame where it is quite hard to evaluate the value of a shield.

Thus, why I say it's dangerous to balance. Plus, randomly throwing big bonuses on a shield is bad design.

Even with the nerfs to icy raiments and monk splash, shields will still need something to keep them interesting and viable.
I don't disagree, but the order in which you proceed is important.

Now, let's assume that icy raiments and monk splash never get nerfed (a very good possibility). Wouldn't giving shields some kind of boost make sense? You are arguing that s&b lags in AC, but reject anything that could help it.
That is not true.

I am not happy to nerf. I'm not like "Yay! Let's nerf those bastards!" I simply reject what I see as moving the problem elsewhere. What good is it to solve a problem if you are going to cause a greater one? Turbine should be striving to make a better game and sometimes that includes nerfing and you know it.

Vorn
11-24-2008, 07:31 AM
I find the thoughts that itemflation is bad in a cinematic, monty-haul campaign to be highly amusing.

We have g.s. or d.t. for every slot except trinket, ring, and shield.
/scribbles furious note to Festivault Jester--
Bring on the uber shields!!! Bring on the uber rings!!! Bring on the uber trinkets!!!
:p
Oh, and more cupcakes, too!

krud
11-24-2008, 08:34 AM
Which one of these effects if included on a shield would make s&b overpowered?
eldritch
25% striding,
greater resists,
stat skills +3,
combustion VII,
fearsome,
greater false life,
heavyfort,
Resistance +5,
Lionheart (procs remove fear),
feather falling,
Deathblock,
Healing amplification 10%

tempest
Stat +6,
Protection +5,
Corrosive Salt Guard,
Wizadry VI,
exceptional stat +1,
magma surge guard.
efficient metamagic empower healing 2,
True Seeing,
SR 22,

sovereign
Tharnes Wrath*,
Lorriks Champion*,
Air Guard,
Melodic Guard (chance to dance on hit),
Superior Combustion VII,
Dodge +3**,
Disintegration guard,
Destruction,
Greater Elemental energy,
Smiting,
resonance 8,
sunder guard,
Crippling,
Earthguard (procs stoneskin),
Greater potency VII,
Greater spell pen VIII,
+4 insight AC,
potency 8,
natural armor +4,
earthgrab guard

combined with a suit of d.t. armor you would be able to get 2 from each group. What combination would be any better than someone with a shroud weapon in offhand plus d.t. armor? I'm not saying this is the only fix needed for s&b, but at the top of the game how is this any more powerful than what others are getting with two shroud weapons plus d.t. armor (or icy raiments)? The sovereign side has some of the better effects, so there may be some potential there, but at first glance it does not appear huge.

edit - If that is deemed too much then allow only one D.T. item per character, either a suit of armor or a shield, but not both.

Borror0
11-24-2008, 08:51 AM
Comparison with Shroud items isn't really the best way to prove something isn't overpowered...

Alcides
11-24-2008, 09:09 AM
Comparison with Shroud items isn't really the best way to prove something isn't overpowered...

Thank you for your input Borror0, I would like to point out the following of what you actually just said.

Contrapositive of your statement:
To prove something is overpowered, comparison with Shroud items is really the best way.

krud
11-24-2008, 09:18 AM
Comparison with Shroud items isn't really the best way to prove something isn't overpowered...

Are shroud items likely to be nerfed? Are any of those benefits I listed likely to overpower s&b if implemented on shields?

artvan_delet
11-24-2008, 11:20 AM
As I read this thread, I think we all agree s/b has real problems. Some want craftable shields others want Turbine to focus on fixing the core issue that twinked gear will not solve. Here are my two questions:

1) Can you fix s/b without nerfing IcyRai, Tempest, etc.? (I think the devs like to avoid nerfing morale problems.)
2) Why cant the devs add crafting to shields AND also fix the main problem?


I have to tell you that I'm skeptical about the devs fixing s/b. There's been no shield attention in, well, forever. TWF is still king. Pally and Fighter 'love' mods have been underwhelming. I'd rather get something than nothing again.

3) Have the devs indicated they acknowledge a s/b problem?

Thanks.

Borror0
11-24-2008, 11:31 AM
3) Have the devs indicated they acknowledge a s/b problem?

This (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1703510#post1703510) is the close we have gotten to this. That was on 05-09-2008.



Paladins are primarily a defensive support class, and under many circumstances can fill that role quite well.

Yes, there are some serious issues facing defensive classes in high end content (especially on Elite) which primarily negatively affect the Paladin and Fighter. (See Borror0's excellent analysis of the issues for more information.) The changes to Paladins in Module 7 are also not meant to be a comprehensive list of changes to the class - there will be more things coming, and we do recognize that there are many additional avenues for us to explore to make them a more desirable class.

Invalid_50
11-24-2008, 12:07 PM
Maybe instead of giving s&b more damage, do something else with it that would be attractive to a party to the point they would want a Sword and Board in the group for other reasons. Perhaps an investment of feats and enhancements to acquire a cleave like effect with the shield that has a chance to deliver a short duration stun? Damage mitigation for the whole party, or focused for the person delivering the shield bash. Obviously there would be prereqs so that true sword and shield users have advantages with these abilities.

Just seems we shouldnt go too much father in the dps route with any class, damage output is kinda scary right now. The more damage we do, the more hit points the bad guys will have.

Turial
11-24-2008, 12:13 PM
....
Just seems we shouldnt go too much father in the dps route with any class, damage output is kinda scary right now. The more damage we do, the more hit points the bad guys will have.

The bad guys only really get more hit points when the top DPS setups get an additional source of added damage. Because S&B is not the top DPS option it is less likely that mobs would get a boost to hp if S&B got a moderate increase in DPS to bridge the DPS gap between TWF and everything else.

Turial
11-24-2008, 12:20 PM
As I read this thread, I think we all agree s/b has real problems. Some want craftable shields others want Turbine to focus on fixing the core issue that twinked gear will not solve. Here are my two questions:

1) Can you fix s/b without nerfing IcyRai, Tempest, etc.? (I think the devs like to avoid nerfing morale problems.) It would be possible but are the problems caused by that fix going to be worse in the longrun then a change to IR and Tempest now. I look at it like treating a limb that is suffereing from gangrene.....you maybe able to prform revascularization to save the limb but you risk infecting more of the body. Amputation would get rid of it right away.
2) Why cant the devs add crafting to shields AND also fix the main problem?
All depends on what type of shield crafting they would come up with.

I have to tell you that I'm skeptical about the devs fixing s/b. There's been no shield attention in, well, forever. TWF is still king. Pally and Fighter 'love' mods have been underwhelming. I'd rather get something than nothing again.

3) Have the devs indicated they acknowledge a s/b problem? yep, just like they acknowledged problems with a few other issues - ranged ROA, Critical rage, etc.

Thanks.

In red.

Invalid_50
11-24-2008, 01:01 PM
I see your point Turial. I just think more damage added to any style of combat potentially opens the door to more hit points. After all, wouldnt the extra damage be calculated into raids and quests just like any other potential damage when the designers decide hit point numbers?

It does seem like a small dps boost would be helpful regardless, but how much will it really help all by itself? You really dont think something along the lines of improved shield bashing techniques with stun or other effects that mitigate incoming melee damage to the user and his party could be part of the solution?

Thanks for the reply by the way :)

William_the_Bat
11-24-2008, 01:34 PM
I don't think more damage for S&B is the way to go. I do think more AC for S&B is. Face it, your shield caps out in AC at level 8. At level 8, your S&B types are the survivability kings, sacrificing DoT for survivability. This is one of the reasons back when DDO launched, everyone thought Paladins were uber. Fast forward a few levels, and your TWF types are gaining AC at an alarming rate, and your S&B types are not.

Again, the whole point of using a shield is to have higher AC. Don't make it do more damage. Do let shields have higher AC. And please don't make shield users wait until level 20 to get it.

Turial
11-24-2008, 01:38 PM
I see your point Turial. I just think more damage added to any style of combat potentially opens the door to more hit points. After all, wouldnt the extra damage be calculated into raids and quests just like any other potential damage when the designers decide hit point numbers? They might be but it would likely fall under a weighted formula. Example...there are a lot of all class X shroud runs that get run. The logic of the dev's behind DPS likely follows a similar thought process where the typical raid group contains 2-3 clerics, 1-2 casters, and the rest DPS. To figure the maximum DPS and thus the amount of HP that would give the ideal group a challenge they would simply put in the arch-types that deals the most DPS (currently Rangers, barbs, and rogues). Because S&B DPS is several steps behind the top DPS it is less likely they would be weighted as highly as the classes listed above for determining hp. Example: do you look at the quite guy in the corner reading a book or the crazy looking guy at the bar counter who is banging the knife against the counter and saying hes going to kill the next person through the door.

It does seem like a small dps boost would be helpful regardless, but how much will it really help all by itself? You really dont think something along the lines of improved shield bashing techniques with stun or other effects that mitigate incoming melee damage to the user and his party could be part of the solution? That is the million plat question....How much of a boost will make the playstyle viable and have happy players, without toppeling everything like a house of cards (critical rage is an example of boosting to much and toppeling everything, and ranged combat is an example of a nerf gone to far).

Improved shield bashing which results in stunning the opponent would require using something other then the established STR mod for determing the DC of the save as many high AC shield users have a much higher dex then str. That seems to be an odd deviation from pnp.

Mitigating incoming damage is a great thing and everyone should be thinking about it constantly as it is one of the things that I believe separates amazing players from good players. That being said.....if it takes player one x period of time to kill a mob and player two y period of time to kill a mob, where y is longer then x by factor z, and the only difference between player 1 and 2 is TWF or S&B, then the defensive benafit of the shield needs to be equal to or greater then factor z....and thats the simple equation. The defensive benafit needs to grow greater then factor z when you encounter multiple mobs.

Defense is a very delicate balance that must be walked because Turbine does not want an unkillable player. Oddlived has soloed VOD....he used a lot of resouces but if defense was set a little more in his favor then the resource consumption would have been far less. That was in a raid...regular quests are far easier to unbalance with unkillables.

Thanks for the reply by the way :)

In red.

sephiroth1084
11-24-2008, 02:46 PM
Borro, I really think you completely missed my point. The bulk of my post was showing that gear is a HUGE part of why S&B is lagging behind Dex-based characters in the AC department, and is a (smaller) portion of why they are lagging behind in the DPS region as well. And not just hard to attain raid gear. COMMON gear as well. +6 stat items, +2 tomes, tier 1 and 2 Shroud weapons, +6 Armor Bracers, [now] Icy Raiments.

NOT addressing the equipment issue at all would be/has been ridiculous. Yes, I feel that S&B needs feats and enhancements added to the game to help it out and make it more interesting, more alluring. No argument there, but you acknowledged that Turbine is going to always make some assumption about gear possessed, so why, then, discount applying some amount of gear to the problem? When seeking solutions, it may help to keep in mind the governing entity's habits and play to them.

In any case, GS crafting of shields would do NOTHING to hurt S&B, and I seriously doubt it would unbalance the game, since that can of worms has already been popped open. That, however, is not all I am proposing--start making armor that drops with a high than standard AC bonus as somewhat more common items. It may tread on the feat of the Dragonscale armor or the like, but that is armor from long ago, and is not phenomenal compared with some of the newer gear as it stands.

But LOOK at some of the stuff Dex-based AC characters are acquiring their AC! Not from raids, but from random loot tables, or farmable chests. When was the last time you can recall pulling a piece of armor or shield that actually contributed to your armor class (that is, raised it)? Maybe you didn't have the cash or luck at level 8 to acquire a +5 mithral stuff, but that was the last time for many, and the potential for everyone is real. When was the last time you pulled a shield or armor out of random or end loot that was worth using?

You have mentioned here and there that you don't want S&B to become too feat or AP intensive, because that will limit the offensive capabilities of the style even further. So, then, if not through several feats or enhancements, and not through gear is this to be done?

I think feats or enhancements that: add to a shield's AC, that add some passive DR, that add to heavy armored AC (to give an excuse for wearing non-mithral), that grant in-chain shield bash attacks and/or make shield bashing useful/not suck, chance of blocking an incoming attack (as per one of Aesop's suggestions), something like Shield Ward, or something like the blocking special ability of the Knight class (PHB II) are all solid ideas for the game, and can help a lot. However, the gap in AC and DPS is too great to completely discount gear.

To clarify (again), I am not proposing JUST implementing GS crafting, and definitely NOT suggesting the addition of raid-loot shields or armor, but rather of altering the way shields above level 8 are generated. I want to see some +5 mithral tower shields with +5 Protect, or Superior Devotion 6, or +3 Resistance, or Greater Resist Energy X, or Heavy Fort, or Greater False Life, or Deathblock, or Proof Against Poison, or...whatever, instead of some really useless garbage. Or maybe add more items that let you raise the Max Dex of your armor...maybe a new ritual, to allow S&B to participate in the stat-ballooning (and AC ballooning) game.

Look in a DMG at starting wealth for a lvl 20 character, see what sort of gear you can acquire and in what amounts, then look at where DDO stands. Sure, the 2 systems do not correlate directly, but in the case of AC S&B is still basically being limited to what a 20th level character would be able to obtain, while TWFers and their ilk are not.

GEAR is, was, and forever will be inextricably tied up with the issue, and there is no avoiding that fact.

Turial
11-24-2008, 03:37 PM
.....
To clarify (again), I am not proposing JUST implementing GS crafting, and definitely NOT suggesting the addition of raid-loot shields or armor, but rather of altering the way shields above level 8 are generated. I want to see some +5 mithral tower shields with +5 Protect, or Superior Devotion 6, or +3 Resistance, or Greater Resist Energy X, or Heavy Fort, or Greater False Life, or Deathblock, or Proof Against Poison, or...whatever, instead of some really useless garbage. .....

It would be a good idea to change the + value for shield add ons so that some of these things could drop sooner. Currently they will not drop until level 20 while you can get +5 burst of banes at this point. It would be a very good starting point to making a shield a worthwhile investment for characters.

By your logic above, I didn't quote you on it, the dex builds are gaining more from the random loot tables then the S&B because, making the jump here, of the IR giving dex/wis builds something the S&B can't duplicate, additional dodge without restricting AC from dex or wis.

Lets face it Wis bonus to AC and the IR are the issue at the heart of the AC disparity. Adjust them a little and the gap goes down. After that the ability for shields to get better mods sooner becomes a tipping point that may go in favor of S&B or it may not and that drives the types of choices players like better then the current setup.

sephiroth1084
11-24-2008, 03:39 PM
By your logic above, I didn't quote you on it, the dex builds are gaining more from the random loot tables then the S&B because, making the jump here, of the IR giving dex/wis builds something the S&B can't duplicate, additional dodge without restricting AC from dex or wis.

Lets face it Wis bonus to AC and the IR are the issue at the heart of the AC disparity. Adjust them a little and the gap goes down. After that the ability for shields to get better mods sooner becomes a tipping point that may go in favor of S&B or it may not and that drives the types of choices players like better then the current setup.

Well, Dex-based rangers pre-Monk we getting comparable AC to S&B guys. Monk and the IR tipped the scales, but we were still seeing characters with comparable AC, who had more DPS, and who had to invest less to attain that AC and DPS. The Wis to AC accounts for, what, 4-10 points of AC? Look at the disparity in AC gained after level 9 between S&B and Dex guys. That goes down a bit if Wis is dropped from the equation, but there is still a gap. And that isn't addressing DPS at all.

Doing something about it sounds like a good idea, but what? Monk splash is something of a 3.5 staple, though, making adjustments based upon how it interacts with the game may be a good idea. As it stands, the devs could not have intended for monk to be primarily a 1-3 level splash class: I definitely see many more characters with a splash of monk than with monk as their primary class.

DrAiAj
11-24-2008, 04:12 PM
Two weapon fighting requires 3 feats for the full bonus. Currently the shield feats you have a two shield masteries for improving damage mitigation while blocking and one to let you keep your bonus while shield bashing. I'd rather have a shield mastery feat that lets you keep your mitigation while regularly attacking and an extra 50% while blocking if you had the other two mitigation feats.

Frankly, with the inflated damage NPCs inflct, improved mitigation on shields with a new feat would be more in line with the feats for two weapon fighting giving more swings than it does in PnP.

sephiroth1084
11-24-2008, 04:43 PM
Oh, to add to my list, something that allows a character to add a second stat to their S&B AC would also be a welcome addition, such as Divine Shield (Cha) or the Deepwarden PrC (Con). In fact, doing something along those lines for Paladins and Fighters respectively may go a long way toward bridging the gap.

Chaos000
11-24-2008, 04:49 PM
What about a named +5 heavy steel shield with +6 to all stats?

it would be great! 15% spell chance failure so even with the 7-fingered gloves you still end up with a 5% spell failure, (so elf maybe to mitigate that) tower shield users would have to choose between the loss of AC, sword and board users (and clerics!!!) are the only one's who would actually benefit the most and would have a whole lot of slots opened up for other items, monk splashes can't benefit from their AC bonus with it equipped, two weapon fighters must then choose between staying with the faster attack from two weapon fighting...

Jeffywan
11-24-2008, 08:03 PM
What about a named +5 heavy steel shield with +6 to all stats?

it would be great! 15% spell chance failure so even with the 7-fingered gloves you still end up with a 5% spell failure, (so elf maybe to mitigate that) tower shield users would have to choose between the loss of AC, sword and board users (and clerics!!!) are the only one's who would actually benefit the most and would have a whole lot of slots opened up for other items, monk splashes can't benefit from their AC bonus with it equipped, two weapon fighters must then choose between staying with the faster attack from two weapon fighting...

Okay I think this is an example of balancing through equipment. I would agree that this type of balancing through equipment would just create other issues and hinder the casual gammer. So I can see why Borror0 would be against such solutions. I also understand that it is seen as the thread has developed this isn't seen as a small issue by many players and there is a general disagreement of what it would take to fix the issues. Perhaps that is why the Devs have not mentioned much on the topic because they are still deliberating the best course of action to fix the balance issue which has been discusses as more of an art then a science (although not phrased like that).

Where I personaly differ with the balance by loot idea is what is considered balancing by loot and proper scaling of loot. When the best shield for a casual gamer is likely the one they got at level 8 and they are level 16 I do not think that shields are scaled properly. I am of the opinion that most shields with a level requirment over 12 should be +4 or +5 shields with bonuses equivelent to at minimum eldrich runes, I would like to see some tempest rune ablities on shields. Personaly I do not think that will solve the entire S&B issue nor do I think that needs to occur through crafting, but if I could have a few flavors of shield that were swapable based on the situation I think that would solve an issue with scaling of shields that exist.

The best way to solve a balance issue is not with a big change which might toss the scale back in another direction but with carefully thoughtout adjustments in each of the catagories that contribute and as you fix each of those you bring more balance without possibly swaying to far to another side. It is the fine touches that I think make balance so tricky, anyone can tip it back in the other direction and continue to inflate things until balance is achieved but every archtype looks the same.

sephiroth1084
11-25-2008, 02:56 AM
Okay I think this is an example of balancing through equipment. I would agree that this type of balancing through equipment would just create other issues and hinder the casual gammer. So I can see why Borror0 would be against such solutions. I also understand that it is seen as the thread has developed this isn't seen as a small issue by many players and there is a general disagreement of what it would take to fix the issues. Perhaps that is why the Devs have not mentioned much on the topic because they are still deliberating the best course of action to fix the balance issue which has been discusses as more of an art then a science (although not phrased like that).

Where I personaly differ with the balance by loot idea is what is considered balancing by loot and proper scaling of loot. When the best shield for a casual gamer is likely the one they got at level 8 and they are level 16 I do not think that shields are scaled properly. I am of the opinion that most shields with a level requirment over 12 should be +4 or +5 shields with bonuses equivelent to at minimum eldrich runes, I would like to see some tempest rune ablities on shields. Personaly I do not think that will solve the entire S&B issue nor do I think that needs to occur through crafting, but if I could have a few flavors of shield that were swapable based on the situation I think that would solve an issue with scaling of shields that exist.

The best way to solve a balance issue is not with a big change which might toss the scale back in another direction but with carefully thoughtout adjustments in each of the catagories that contribute and as you fix each of those you bring more balance without possibly swaying to far to another side. It is the fine touches that I think make balance so tricky, anyone can tip it back in the other direction and continue to inflate things until balance is achieved but every archtype looks the same.

This, I think, is certainly a step in the right direction, though I think that raising the bar for either the +5 enhancement cap (unlikely since it is tied directly to PnP rules) or maybe start dropping shields composed of some special material that have a higher base AC by 1-4 points might be a decent idea.

Oh, and Chaos, while the shield you propose would be attractive, it doesn't do anything to solve anything...it's just a nice, useful item that saves slots.

mediocresurgeon
11-25-2008, 05:32 AM
Two Weapon Fighting, by nature of having twice the amount of normal weaponry, should have a greater offensive power than Sword and Board. By nature of equiping a defensive item, Sword and Board should be better able to resist the offensive attacks of an enemy than other styles, such as TWF/THF.

Please note that because in the 3.5 rule system, if the enemy attack bonus ever reaches 19 points above your armor class, your armor class is irrelivant. Because of this, wearing a shield only will ever matter if you have a sizeable armor class already. Therefore, a shield will only be the crowning peice of armor class equipment, never the main part.

I'm beginning to suspect that many of use forget that shields are far superior to wielding two weapons in certain situations--mainly where the only thing that matters is defense, such as tanking the raid boss in the Hound of Xoriat.

Fact: Shields do not help in slaying magic-users, and never have. Two Weapon Fighting dramatically decreases the survivability of enemy magic-users.

I'm of the frame of mind that the ultimate goal of any character is to get better equipment. The better a character is at this, the quicker they will get to the next chest, the more loot they will generate, the better the odds are they will find something useful. Is the best Shroud group the one where nobody dies because they are immune to enemy attacks? No. The best Shroud group is the one that gets to the end the quickest, even if it means people die. Therefor, the best characters are the ones with the greatest possible offense.

Where exactly does a shield fit into this?

Shields (theoretically, at least) reduce the amount of damage its user takes. Less damage dealt to a character means fewer resources spent on healing, which means less time spent resting, fewer mid-dungeon trips back to the tavern, etc. Shields make sense if you need to protect yourself in order to complete the loot run, but otherwise do not directly contribute to the player getting loot faster.

Equipping a second weapon can also reduce the amount of damage its user takes. If an enemy dies sooner, it swings fewer times, casts fewer spells, and soforth. Equipping a second weapon can mean fewer resources spent on healing. Because of the enhanced offensive capabilities of using two weapons instead of only one, using two weapons directly contributes to the player getting loot faster.

Shields, as implimented so far, are simply not a viable choice because they do not enhance the killing power of the player. Experience shows that they also add little protection to players, because it is a better defensive choice to kill the monsters which are attacking rather than endure their attacks with a shield.


The Problem:
Balancing the effectiveness of a shield against the effectiveness of dual-wielding weapons while in the pursuit of quick treasure.

A Note:
Using Two Weapon Fighting with any sort of skill requires minumum ability scores and feats. Using a shield requires neither. By virtue of two weapon fighting being more difficult to obtain, it should be the more generally effective fighting style.

My Solution:

Two Weapon Fighting feats currently require very high dexterity. However, these feats still require less dexterity than their pen-and-paper counterparts. Increasing the dexterity requirements for these feats ensures fewer stats available for other ability scores (most notably strength, the key ability score for dealing damage in melee). While this will not have any decrease in the killing power of finesse builds with constitution-damaging weapons (of which there are plenty), it will dramatically decrease the viablility of strength-based two weapon fighters (such as barbarians and some fighters/paladins).

Two Weapon Fighting is effective as a defensive measure because it becomes easier to kill the enemy before the enemy kills the player. Slowing down the rate of attack of the Two Weapon Fighting chain would give the enemy more attacks before dying, thus increasing the need for defensive equipment such as shields.

Adding offensive effects to shields which enhance the primary weapon of the character will increase the offensive output of the character. For instance, one might find a randomly-generated +5 Heavy Shield of [insert suffix here], which adds an additional +1d6 shocking damage to the character's attacks. (This is not to be confused with the already-existing shield which is Flaming but only adds this fire damage to shield bashes.) This will increase the offensive capability of sword-and-board characters and help them to get treasure quicker.

Many special attacks used by monsters fail to land on a player if that player is actively blocking. Removing the special attack immunity from active blockers who do not have a shield equipped would promote shield use in active blocking maneuvers.

Shields, if worn only for armor class, are useless for characters who have a total AC less than 2 + [insert enemy attack bonus here]. Adding an additional non-AC defensive bonus for having a shield equipped (such as damage reduction, a bonus against flash-burst spells like fireball/cold of cold, or something more creative) would promote having a shield equipped.

Turial
11-25-2008, 05:58 AM
......
My Solution:

Two Weapon Fighting feats currently require very high dexterity. However, these feats still require less dexterity than their pen-and-paper counterparts. Increasing the dexterity requirements for these feats ensures fewer stats available for other ability scores (most notably strength, the key ability score for dealing damage in melee). While this will not have any decrease in the killing power of finesse builds with constitution-damaging weapons (of which there are plenty), it will dramatically decrease the viablility of strength-based two weapon fighters (such as barbarians and some fighters/paladins).
......

Changing the feat requirements would be a less good option. Strength based TWF comes more from rangers then from other classes and the change to the feats would not affect rangers. Then there is the large number of potential players who designed their characters to get TWF all the sudden loosing feats because they didn't meet prerecs. That would be worse then nerfing monk splashes and the IR.

Borror0
11-25-2008, 06:01 AM
Two Weapon Fighting, by nature of having twice the amount of normal weaponry, should have a greater offensive power than Sword and Board.
Not really. Why do you think D&D rules say you only get half your Str modifier to your offhand? ;)

That would be worse then nerfing monk splashes and the IR.
Hell ya.

The problem isn't as much a DPS problem than an AC problem anyway. It wouldn't address the problem too well. Honestly, it was a good post until he got into the solution part. The problem with is suggestion is that it would make rangers stronger than what they are and not really make S&B better... on top of being the most painful nerf I have ever seen suggested.

sephiroth1084
11-25-2008, 06:11 AM
I do certainly agree with the suggestion to remove the ability to negate certain special effects by blocking without a shield. Honestly, holding your arms up in front of you shouldn't account for all that much.

Though, I forsee my caster dying more frequently in The Reaver.

Turial
11-25-2008, 09:49 AM
...
Adding offensive effects to shields which enhance the primary weapon of the character will increase the offensive output of the character. For instance, one might find a randomly-generated +5 Heavy Shield of [insert suffix here], which adds an additional +1d6 shocking damage to the character's attacks. (This is not to be confused with the already-existing shield which is Flaming but only adds this fire damage to shield bashes.) This will increase the offensive capability of sword-and-board characters and help them to get treasure quicker.
.....
Adding an additional non-AC defensive bonus for having a shield equipped (such as damage reduction, a bonus against flash-burst spells like fireball/cold of cold, or something more creative) would promote having a shield equipped.

These are interesting points. Having offensive mods on sheilds apply their powers to the main hand weapon would help with a portion of the DPS issue. It would be a nightmare to code though as items that currently have similar functionality share the power between two weapons (we wouldn't want to all the sudden have a person using a radiance 2 weapon and a sundering ooze weapon to have the effects from one weapon replicate on the other).

On the topic of DR et al. its a fine line to draw and one that will require lots of playtesting if the devs implement them. They are good ideas at heart but gamers tend to twist everything they can to their favor.

Turial
11-25-2008, 09:49 AM
I do certainly agree with the suggestion to remove the ability to negate certain special effects by blocking without a shield. Honestly, holding your arms up in front of you shouldn't account for all that much.

Though, I forsee my caster dying more frequently in The Reaver.

You know every caster should carry a nice towershield. Just saying.

Borror0
11-25-2008, 09:56 AM
On the topic of DR et al. its a fine line to draw and one that will require lots of playtesting if the devs implement them.
Exactly. They are the kind of things that are very hard to gauge.

Also, DR seems to be the kind of things that either "sucks" or just is overpowered. Like there is nothing between the two.

Ralmeth
11-25-2008, 10:13 AM
Just to throw out an idea...As we all know shields are a defensive tool, so how about the following feat line?

Shield Defense I
If you have a shield equipped in your off-hand, any melee or missile attack against you will have a 10% chance to miss you (a blur like effect). Essentially you have used your shield to block the incoming attack.

Shield Defense II
Same as Defense I, except that attacks against you have a 20% chance to miss.

Shield Defense III
Same as Defense I, except that attacks against you have a 30% miss chance.

The exact percent chance to miss, and whether it would stack with blur or displacement would have to be up to the developers, to find the right balance. I think that 30% from Defense III and 50% from displacement would be way too much, so perhaps these would not stack. In addition, Shield Defense I possibly II could be added to the loot tables (such as Mobility is) and for those characters where a character would want to spend their feats elsewhere (ex. Clerics) they could still gain some additional benefit from finding and using a shield in their off hand with this feat on it.

krud
11-25-2008, 10:20 AM
These are interesting points. Having offensive mods on sheilds apply their powers to the main hand weapon would help with a portion of the DPS issue. It would be a nightmare to code though as items that currently have similar functionality share the power between two weapons (we wouldn't want to all the sudden have a person using a radiance 2 weapon and a sundering ooze weapon to have the effects from one weapon replicate on the other).

On the topic of DR et al. its a fine line to draw and one that will require lots of playtesting if the devs implement them. They are good ideas at heart but gamers tend to twist everything they can to their favor.

they could add existing effects, such as vertigo, seeker, and weighted, which already transfer some abilities to the main weapon. While it wouldn't fix everything it would add more useful effects to shields comparable to what TWF get when holding two weapons.

I believe DR on current shields is ok, and DR in general seems ok.

A few post back I mentioned crafted D.T. shields. I still believe they can be implemented, though after some thought, being able to equip both D.T. armor and a D.T. shield would probably be too much. Either the armor or a shield but not both would not be overpowering by any means.

Chaos000
11-25-2008, 12:15 PM
Oh, and Chaos, while the shield you propose would be attractive, it doesn't do anything to solve anything...it's just a nice, useful item that saves slots.

eh, I figured since people are complaining that the new armor (while having nice effects) have a low max dex and don't come in forms of chain armor might as well throw in a shield that kinda does the same.

is the utility worth the loss of AC?

Anyways, I think if they adjusted shields so that lvl 14+ req. are all at least +5, then we'd see a lot more nicer ones drop.

sephiroth1084
11-25-2008, 02:23 PM
Just to throw out an idea...As we all know shields are a defensive tool, so how about the following feat line?

Shield Defense I
If you have a shield equipped in your off-hand, any melee or missile attack against you will have a 10% chance to miss you (a blur like effect). Essentially you have used your shield to block the incoming attack.

Shield Defense II
Same as Defense I, except that attacks against you have a 20% chance to miss.

Shield Defense III
Same as Defense I, except that attacks against you have a 30% miss chance.

The exact percent chance to miss, and whether it would stack with blur or displacement would have to be up to the developers, to find the right balance. I think that 30% from Defense III and 50% from displacement would be way too much, so perhaps these would not stack. In addition, Shield Defense I possibly II could be added to the loot tables (such as Mobility is) and for those characters where a character would want to spend their feats elsewhere (ex. Clerics) they could still gain some additional benefit from finding and using a shield in their off hand with this feat on it.

I'd say that if the percentage were dropped to something like 5, 10, 15% and allowed to stack with Blur and/or Displacement it'd be more useful. Trueseeing and other similar Blur-ignoring effects should not apply to this. But here is a fairly intuitive version of something Aesop had proposed (I believe) about blocking chance. Not a bad idea.

sephiroth1084
11-25-2008, 02:26 PM
I believe DR on current shields is ok, and DR in general seems ok.



The discussion regarding DR here, isn't about blocking DR, but about adding a passive DR value to shields, which is definitely difficult to balance, since it would have to be enough to be worthwhile, yet not so much as to make the beneficiary immune to most damage.

Certainly greater than DR 5/- is a good starting point for the low end, since taking a feat to get what Bards are already giving out would be fairly pointless most of the time.

Borror0
11-25-2008, 02:29 PM
I'd say that if the percentage were dropped to something like 5, 10, 15% and allowed to stack with Blur and/or Displacement it'd be more useful.
It has the same problem as DR. Underwhelming and hard to balance.

Aesop
11-25-2008, 03:29 PM
I'd say that if the percentage were dropped to something like 5, 10, 15% and allowed to stack with Blur and/or Displacement it'd be more useful. Trueseeing and other similar Blur-ignoring effects should not apply to this. But here is a fairly intuitive version of something Aesop had proposed (I believe) about blocking chance. Not a bad idea.

I think I outlined it briefly in Post 71 of this thread otherwise you could see it in a Thread entitled Once More with Feeling though that is an evolving format so the original ideas in the Op have expanded and changed over the course of the few pages


Aesop

Jeffywan
11-25-2008, 05:01 PM
I think I outlined it briefly in Post 71 of this thread otherwise you could see it in a Thread entitled Once More with Feeling though that is an evolving format so the original ideas in the Op have expanded and changed over the course of the few pages


Aesop

Aesop I really liked your passice blocking idea, I think that combined with a change in loot tables so that the higher level required shields were +4 or +5 sheilds with effects (and add effects similar to some of the the things you find on crafting) even without adding crafting this would go a long way towards restoring the defensive nature of a shield. Then after that balance was restored the trickier areas like DPS could be re-examined if there was still major issues. It would also be neat to see somthing like bane on a shield but that increases defense against a type of foe. So a +3 greater dragon defense shield would be +7 vs dragons and have some factor more DR. I want shields that I can swap as the situation calls for it just like there are weapons like that. If most of the ablities are resitance and defense orriented I think it makes a lot of sense.

Aesop
11-25-2008, 05:14 PM
Aesop I really liked your passice blocking idea, I think that combined with a change in loot tables so that the higher level required shields were +4 or +5 sheilds with effects (and add effects similar to some of the the things you find on crafting) even without adding crafting this would go a long way towards restoring the defensive nature of a shield.

Thank you. I'm hoping to refine things a bit more over time and through suggestions and adaptations.


Then after that balance was restored the trickier areas like DPS could be re-examined if there was still major issues. It would also be neat to see somthing like bane on a shield but that increases defense against a type of foe. So a +3 greater dragon defense shield would be +7 vs dragons and have some factor more DR. I want shields that I can swap as the situation calls for it just like there are weapons like that. If most of the ablities are resitance and defense orriented I think it makes a lot of sense.


That's an interesting idea and I can see some Merit in it.

Example:

+5 Greater Dragon Ward Heavy Steel Shield of Bashing

Lesser creature Ward = +1 AC and Saves against creature
equivelant to a +1 enhancement

creature Ward = +2 AC and Saves against creature and DR 2/- vs creature's attacks
equivelant to a +2 enhancement

Greater creature Ward +4AC and Saves against dreature and DR 5/- vs creature's attacks
equivelant to a +3 enhancement


Aesop

sephiroth1084
11-25-2008, 05:47 PM
That's an interesting idea and I can see some Merit in it.

Example:

+5 Greater Dragon Ward Heavy Steel Shield of Bashing

Lesser creature Ward = +1 AC and Saves against creature
equivelant to a +1 enhancement

creature Ward = +2 AC and Saves against creature and DR 2/- vs creature's attacks
equivelant to a +2 enhancement

Greater creature Ward +4AC and Saves against dreature and DR 5/- vs creature's attacks
equivelant to a +3 enhancement


Aesop

I like this, though I foresee it resulting in a TON of backpack space being eaten up. Could be interesting though, and would certainly dovetail nicely with the upcoming nemesis-themed paladin PrEs.

Deathseeker
11-25-2008, 07:40 PM
That's an interesting idea and I can see some Merit in it.

Example:

+5 Greater Dragon Ward Heavy Steel Shield of Bashing

Lesser creature Ward = +1 AC and Saves against creature
equivelant to a +1 enhancement

creature Ward = +2 AC and Saves against creature and DR 2/- vs creature's attacks
equivelant to a +2 enhancement

Greater creature Ward +4AC and Saves against dreature and DR 5/- vs creature's attacks
equivelant to a +3 enhancement


Aesop

Finally! After all of this dialogue and eye bleeding text, something I can really buy into to! Very good idea Aesop...count me in!

I'd like to see these part of the random loot tables (of course). It would be pretty rare to find one with a +5 on it, and the others would be semi-trash (no point in getting an AC bonus on a non +5 shield). But that's ok...rare is good, makes chests more interesting.

Great idea...helps solve random loot problem (being there isn't enough good stuff) and S&B balance.

Aesop
11-25-2008, 07:47 PM
Finally! After all of this dialogue and eye bleeding text, something I can really buy into to! Very good idea Aesop...count me in!

I'd like to see these part of the random loot tables (of course). It would be pretty rare to find one with a +5 on it, and the others would be semi-trash (no point in getting an AC bonus on a non +5 shield). But that's ok...rare is good, makes chests more interesting.

Great idea...helps solve random loot problem (being there isn't enough good stuff) and S&B balance.

I just extrapolated on the idea

Jeffywan brought it up


this still isn't a fix its just an interesting side line theat makes for some more interesting Shield Loot

Aesop

sephiroth1084
11-25-2008, 10:38 PM
It has the same problem as DR. Underwhelming and hard to balance.

Underwhelming, maybe. Okay, probably, but useful. As to being tough to balance...what isn't?

Aesop
11-25-2008, 10:49 PM
Just to give people something to chew on

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=163189&highlight=aesop

I need to condense all the ideas again and update the OP to the current iterations I think... but its not too long yet

Aesop

Borror0
11-26-2008, 01:38 AM
That's an interesting idea and I can see some Merit in it.
I am going to make the same comment as Sephiroth and say it would eat up a lot of backpack space.

Underwhelming, maybe. Okay, probably, but useful. As to being tough to balance...what isn't?
Armor Class... you know, what S&B was supposed to be about.

Turial
11-26-2008, 05:57 AM
That's an interesting idea and I can see some Merit in it.

Example:

+5 Greater Dragon Ward Heavy Steel Shield of Bashing

Lesser creature Ward = +1 AC and Saves against creature
equivelant to a +1 enhancement

creature Ward = +2 AC and Saves against creature and DR 2/- vs creature's attacks
equivelant to a +2 enhancement

Greater creature Ward +4AC and Saves against dreature and DR 5/- vs creature's attacks
equivelant to a +3 enhancement


Aesop

Its a good suggestion but it really wont help much in the battle of making S&B closer to the current AC leader(s). When all is said and done it gives a DR bonus that the current leaders can't replicate. For most characters that DR bonus won't be enough to justify the extra inventory space the shields will take up.

Figure:
Evil outsider ward
Elemental ward
Ooze ward
Abberation ward
Giant ward
Undead ward
for starters in the current high level content.

Borror0
11-26-2008, 06:00 AM
Its a good suggestion but it really wont help much in the battle of making S&B closer to the current AC leader(s). [...] For most characters that DR bonus won't be enough to justify the extra inventory space the shields will take up.
That is sort of the problem with it.

While it has some value, I don't feel it should be something imported to random loot. It would great a problem where you either have it and it's a pain for not as much gain as you'd like or you don't and you are lesser. However, I think it has some potential on named loot. It IS really flavorful and interesting. Needs to be carefully used, but it is really neat idea.

If I'd be Tharagrim, ideas would probably start popping in my head. Sirgog, if you're reading... what do you think 'bout this?

Aesop
11-26-2008, 06:03 AM
Its a good suggestion but it really wont help much in the battle of making S&B closer to the current AC leader(s). When all is said and done it gives a DR bonus that the current leaders can't replicate. For most characters that DR bonus won't be enough to justify the extra inventory space the shields will take up.

Figure:
Evil outsider ward
Elemental ward
Ooze ward
Abberation ward
Giant ward
Undead ward
for starters in the current high level content.

Oh yeah I know it won't make a huge difference and I know it will take a bit of Inventory space, but it is a neat idea and it would at least make shield fighting a little more interesting and have more choices... instead of minimal resists or blinding effects that don't work very often.


It would also give a little extra AC that TWF couldn't replicate and a bonus on saves that TWF couldn't replicate

edit: and while the uber versions may not be readily available the middle tier ones might be a little more commonplace

Aesop

Borror0
11-26-2008, 06:06 AM
It would also give a little extra AC that TWF couldn't replicate and a bonus on saves that TWF couldn't replicate
All of that sounds nice, but you got to think about how it will be used if it hits live servers.

I just see it as annoying rather than helpful. Very situational.

Aesop
11-26-2008, 06:12 AM
All of that sounds nice, but you got to think about how it will be used if it hits live servers.

I just see it as annoying rather than helpful. Very situational.



Well. I agree it is situational but what are the alternative abilities that a shield has. I mean most people have 1 maybe 2 Shields that they use right?

Of course regardless of situational usage you always still have the option of sticking with your old standby... what is it Leviks or Lorrick.


Again its not really meant as a solution more like adding a little salt to eggs right now. It makes it taste a little better to some.

Aesop


off to work

Borror0
11-26-2008, 06:15 AM
Well. I agree it is situational but what are the alternative abilities that a shield has. I mean most people have 1 maybe 2 Shields that they use right?
Adding more options is not always good Aesop.

I feel we are better off without them than with them. I'll try to think about something situational but less annoying.

Grimdiegn
11-26-2008, 06:34 AM
Shield crafting would be an horrible idea.

That said, S&B needs some DPS love and monk splash and Icy Raiment needs some nerfing.

Sorry but that's BS in my opinion. If we have crafting, we should be able to craft items for every slot on a char.

You keep saying its a bad idea in every thread but really never back it up.

Overpowered weapons and armor are ok. Why is it bad to have an overpowered shield?

Borror0
11-26-2008, 06:58 AM
Overpowered weapons and armor are ok. Why is it bad to have an overpowered shield?
I never said these were OK either.

You keep saying its a bad idea in every thread but really never back it up.
I actually did. Many times. One here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1942287#post1942287), another here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1932496#post1932496) and a few other times a while ago.

Oh, and I got another one coming as a reply to krud.

Grimdiegn
11-26-2008, 07:06 AM
Yea, I've read those but you are ignoring the fact that the game IS already very gear dependent (at high levels) and that is not going to change. Omitting shields only makes it worse for sword and board characters. Every play style has to be included.

Nerfing is bad after all this time and will only lead to mass exodus of veteran players.

If crafting is in the game, we need to be able to make everything.

Grimdiegn
11-26-2008, 07:34 AM
Since it is possible to balance without crafted gear, why should we do so if it is to create that problem?

It is not possible to balance it without crafted gear because the green steel weapons ARE here and the devs are not going to take it away. You are advocating a solution that will never happen.

Borror0
11-26-2008, 07:35 AM
Are shroud items likely to be nerfed?
You are asking the wrong question.

The right question would be: Why were Green Steel equipment a bad idea?

The answer to that would be that whoever created the Green Steel equipment went trigger-happy on the enchantment these items could have. Not only were those items too much all of a sudden, but they were also too soon. The result of that is randomly generated loot is nearly worthless except for a rare few exceptions.

But that is only what can be most easily perceived. It doesn't end there.

Let's skip the "too soon" part and let's talk about the "too much" part.

Before I start, though, I'd like to argue a point you might try to make. (I don't to that to be condescending. It's simply that when we want to reply to someone's argument, we are less receptive to whatever he says after.) You might want to argue that TWF has access to twice of that "too much" as S&B and thus there should be Green Steel shields. However, we both know balance can be found without taking that route. We are simply debating in order to find want paths could be taken to solve the imbalance. Otherwise, THF would be doomed forever has it can only wield one weapon, not two. Nor can it wield a shield. So, it all boils down to the pros and cons of crafted shields, whether they are Green Steel, Dragontouched or something yet to be known.

As I said, Green Steel items were "too much". Too much in a way that nearly all randomly generated weapons are now trash. Except a few rare exceptions like the +5 Transmuting Khopeshes of Greater Evil Outsider Banes and the Wounding of Puncturing rapiers, weapons are trash except if they are not Green Steel.

On the accessory side, things happened a little differently as very few of the interesting bonuses didn't stack with was already in the game at that time. The only real accessory enchantment that got affected by this Green Steel accessories are the Spell Points ones as Wizardry VI wasn't all that common at the time. Instead of replacing the preexisting accessories, they just contributed to the Monty Haulness of DDO by pushing the limit even higher. Wizards got a +150 SP bonus and sorcerers got a 300 SP bonus. That is on top of the bonus that many gained from Wizardry VI. Everyone that could afford it got +45 HP as well. That is nearly as much as 10 APs spent on Toughness would get you! We are comparing to an overpowered enhancement line here!!

That insane amount of power created a huge gap between those who have it and those who don't. Because those weapons are so powerful, those without them are greatly behind. Because those accessories are so powerful, those without them are greatly behind. Arguing the opposite is really hard when you compare what was the standards pre-Module 6.0 to our standards now.

That is a problem we should want to avoid to worsen.

So, while two-weapon fighting characters got a second overpowered weapon in their offhand, it does not justifies that S&B needs one to. It does open the door to it, but it would be too hasty to conclude it is the way to go. Going down that path would worsen a problem that we should want to reduce. An MMO has to be friendly to new players or they will chased away. An MMO cannot permit itself to be appealing only for powergamers. DDO cannot afford the money to make non-powergamer content and powergamer content, the same content has to appeal to both. Thus why the gear wore by the two must not be worlds apart.

That is why we should avoid asking for gear of the Green Steel scale.

Since it is possible to balance without crafted gear, why should we do so if it is to create that problem?

Vorn
11-26-2008, 07:59 AM
Embrace your inner Monty Haul!!! Revel in it!!!
:)
I must have missed something (not surprising really as I've not yet had coffee:p) as folks have been advocating balance through feats/enhancements but now have starting chatting about gear (shields with special dodads). If you're going to talk about shields with random dodads, it's not a far step to talk about shields that, in some way, mimic what's available on greensteel or d.t. The hound raid has levik's defender, +5 MTS, for example, with a sonic guard, a 2% per hit of heal going off, and can combine for an insight bonus to ac (though I much prefer Borr's suggestion somewhere of 2 dodge/2 sacred for the set to serve as a chaosguard upgrade). That's better than I've been able to roll through slot machine crafting on some of my d.t armor :rolleyes:

Borror0
11-26-2008, 08:09 AM
It is not possible to balance it without crafted gear because the green steel weapons ARE here and the devs are not going to take it away. You are advocating a solution that will never happen.
By that logic, two-handed fighting is forever doomed and will never be able to be better than two-weapon fighting as it limits the character to only one piece of gear in his hands unlike two-weapon fighting and S&B allows. It's not really hard to understand why that argument doesn't hold any water.

Balance can be achieved without balancing through gear.

The only drawback to not balance through gear is that it would make of TWF the least casual player/new player friendly fighting style. However, it is better to have one unfriendly fighting style than two. It is also a problem that could be addressed later on by strategically adding gear to soften the problem.

Grimdiegn
11-26-2008, 08:25 AM
So your solution is to over balance feats to make up for greensteel and then add gear later? That makes sense. :rolleyes:

The easiest and the most balanced solution is to give every player access to the same gear.

Turial
11-26-2008, 09:19 AM
....
It would also give a little extra AC that TWF couldn't replicate and a bonus on saves that TWF couldn't replicate
....

Ranger favored defense and ranger favored saves. The only thing the shield would give is +1 to each of those over what a ranger can get and the DR (which may cause issues if it doesn't correctly stack with barbarian DR fully).

Turial
11-26-2008, 09:26 AM
.....
So, while two-weapon fighting characters got a second overpowered weapon in their offhand, it does not justifies that S&B needs one to. It does open the door to it, but it would be too hasty to conclude it is the way to go. Going down that path would worsen a problem that we should want to reduce. An MMO has to be friendly to new players or they will chased away. An MMO cannot permit itself to be appealing only for powergamers. DDO cannot afford the money to make non-powergamer content and powergamer content, the same content has to appeal to both. Thus why the gear wore by the two must not be worlds apart.

That is why we should avoid asking for gear of the Green Steel scale.

Since it is possible to balance without crafted gear, why should we do so if it is to create that problem?

I have always thought that GS weapons should have a taint similar to the items. Granted some people would eventually get two clean GS weapons (remember its almost impossible to stop powergamers) but it might take longer and may slow down the aquisition of +3 tomes.

Though on the same hand it makes things harder for the casual gamer as they will likely not get enough runs to get 2+ clean items so they can have GW items and two GS weapons.

Jeffywan
11-26-2008, 11:35 AM
That's an interesting idea and I can see some Merit in it.

Example:

+5 Greater Dragon Ward Heavy Steel Shield of Bashing

Lesser creature Ward = +1 AC and Saves against creature
equivelant to a +1 enhancement

creature Ward = +2 AC and Saves against creature and DR 2/- vs creature's attacks
equivelant to a +2 enhancement

Greater creature Ward +4AC and Saves against dreature and DR 5/- vs creature's attacks
equivelant to a +3 enhancement


Aesop

Really nice elaboration. I know people talk about it taking extra inventory but personaly I know I have the space now that they added the bags for collectables and gems and ingredients, space is much more managable. But I can see how a character that wanted a Greater Ward shield and a Greater Bane weapon for each type would run into some problems, but that isn't your average gamer. Also there is no reason this could not stack with favored defense, I actually think it offers a Ranger a reason to S&B against a favored enemy depending on their enhancments and that type of customization of characters is great in my opnion.

sephiroth1084
11-26-2008, 02:30 PM
Balance can be achieved without balancing through gear.

.

I do not believe this at all. I believe it is possible to balance not just through gear, but also through abilities. Look at how great a gulf there is between S&B and everything else, and how it is achieved. I know my earlier posts in this thread were verbose, but that was needed to make the point: the AC issue and the DPS issue are both related to a lack of enhancements, class abilities and feats for the shield-wielding fighting style, as well as to problems inherent in item generation and distribution.

In order to solve either issue without turning toward gear at all will be incredibly difficult, since you would have to make abilities that are completely independent of decent gear, which would then mean that items, for these characters, would hold far less meaning. That, then, would likely be considered unbalanced by those players who are more gear dependent, and would make Turbine's job that much more difficult, for when they would then attempt to give S&B players new gear, they would have to weigh carefully how much of an impact any bonus would give on top of the already very strong enhancement/feat/class ability.

Not to mention, that if we do such gear-less balancing via enhancements or feats, we pigeon-hole the populace, since not taking these very powerful abilities will truly gimp your character. While it is not everyone's desire, with gear at least there is something to strive for, particularly once cap has been reached. There is nothing to try for; one simply takes these enhancements or feats. And if they are so powerful as to obviate any adjustment to equipment, then they'd be almost mandatory for S&B players, since those without would lag far, far behind.

Splitting the balance between gear (and I proposed random loot, rather than raid loot or crafting, because it will not be a luxury simply for the uber) and abilities means that players will still be free to choose: if you have one, but not the other you may find yourself lacking a little, but not as much as one would without both (or without one if there were only one).

Turial
11-26-2008, 02:50 PM
I do not believe this at all. I believe it is possible to balance not just through gear, but also through abilities. Look at how great a gulf there is between S&B and everything else, and how it is achieved. I know my earlier posts in this thread were verbose, but that was needed to make the point: the AC issue and the DPS issue are both related to a lack of enhancements, class abilities and feats for the shield-wielding fighting style, as well as to problems inherent in item generation and distribution.

In order to solve either issue without turning toward gear at all will be incredibly difficult, .....

Its only incredibly difficult if you rule nerfs out of the equation. TWF should deal more damage that S&B but it shouldn't have better AC and defense then S&B.

sephiroth1084
11-26-2008, 03:08 PM
Its only incredibly difficult if you rule nerfs out of the equation. TWF should deal more damage that S&B but it shouldn't have better AC and defense then S&B.

Okay, but how do you nerf that? Too many Icy Raiments out there to break them, and the +2 from Tempest isn't by itself hugely significant. Most of the AC is from Dex and Wis. How do you nerf that without being patently unfair? Yeah, only being able to add Wis to your AC equal to your monk level would solve some problems, but not all, and would likely result in there being far fewer characters with any monk levels running around Stormreach, since the splash would be hardly worthwhile.

Honestly, the only nerf I can think of that would not be totally unfair to everyone, would be to remove the class and race ability score enhancements entirely. No more +5 Dex and +1 or +2 Wis or the like. This would help a little. Of course, monsters would have to be dialed down a bit, since casters would lose 2 points from their save DCs; dwarves would have less HP and a lower Con; elves, drow, halflings, rangers, rogues and monks would lose some AC and some saves and some attack bonus and some skill bonus.

I don't mind nerfing so long as it does not break a character concept. If you planned to be high-AC and damage, the nerf should dial you back, not render you useless, or break one of your goals.

Aesop
11-26-2008, 03:46 PM
Ranger favored defense and ranger favored saves. The only thing the shield would give is +1 to each of those over what a ranger can get and the DR (which may cause issues if it doesn't correctly stack with barbarian DR fully).

Which only really matter if they don't stack with the Ward. Most Equipment stack with Enhancements though so I'd assume they would.

Not saying the idea is perfect.

Aesop


Oh sorry I forgot the DR thing... ya know I'm not sure. Maybe have it increase the Blocking DR instead of Straight DR? Leans more towards the good part of the Shields without being arbitrary

Chaos000
11-26-2008, 04:17 PM
not to derail the consensus people seem to have as to how they feel that shields should go but my suggestion is perhaps maybe some of the enhancements on shields we find in pen and paper.

Chaos000
11-26-2008, 04:30 PM
breaking rules wise on a crafted shield in the way weapons are in the shroud I think it would be nice if there were some damaging effects that could be applied to shield bashes. lightning strike, enervation, magna burst, earthgrab... and to compensate for the slow attack speed via shield up the percentage from 1% to 5%

sephiroth1084
11-26-2008, 05:04 PM
breaking rules wise on a crafted shield in the way weapons are in the shroud I think it would be nice if there were some damaging effects that could be applied to shield bashes. lightning strike, enervation, magna burst, earthgrab... and to compensate for the slow attack speed via shield up the percentage from 1% to 5%

I think that, even if it were 15% you wouldn't see people shield bashing very often. It's just too slow, and does too little damage to make up for a full attack chain with a solid weapon.

Though it might be interesting if the percentage were very high (25%+)...

Get a shield with one of these abilities on it as a situational debuff weapon.

Garth_of_Sarlona
11-26-2008, 05:07 PM
I think that, even if it were 15% you wouldn't see people shield bashing very often. It's just too slow, and does too little damage to make up for a full attack chain with a solid weapon.

Though it might be interesting if the percentage were very high (25%+)...

Get a shield with one of these abilities on it as a situational debuff weapon.

Suggestion: make shields with effects like shattermantle, cursespewing or destruction.

Then an intimitank can intimidate to themselves while blocking and shield-bash debuffs to help the group attack the intimidated mob.

Garth

Chaos000
11-26-2008, 05:49 PM
Suggestion: make shields with effects like shattermantle, cursespewing or destruction.

Then an intimitank can intimidate to themselves while blocking and shield-bash debuffs to help the group attack the intimidated mob.

Garth

hmm... what about something like shattermantle guard, cursespewing guard, or destruction guard.

that would be a sexy item

... the more I think about it. what if crafted shields had the ability to inflict the damage that their guard item does on attack? that would be kind of nice.

sephiroth1084
11-26-2008, 06:01 PM
Oh! What about putting similar abilities (Shattermantle, Destruction, etc...) on shields and have that apply to attacks made with your weapon, in the same way that Backstabbing or Vertigo apply to both weapons when dual wielding?

That could be interesting, if not a fix exactly. It could certainly improve the quality of random loot shields as long as the abilities don't hedge out the defensive bonus of the shield.

Guard-type effects are kind of underwhelming for someone focusing on S&B, since, presumably, the desire is to NOT get hit, and one would build oneself with that goal in mind, making Guards less effective since they would rarely activate.

Borror0
11-26-2008, 06:43 PM
Too many Icy Raiments out there to break them
Why do you say that? I don't know, just give them a large scale and make the Raiment +3 Dodge.

[...] the +2 from Tempest isn't by itself hugely significant. Most of the AC is from Dex and Wis.
Ya, but it adds up. Making it a Shield bonus would be more logic and less dangerous.

Yeah, only being able to add Wis to your AC equal to your monk level would solve some problems, but not all, and would likely result in there being far fewer characters with any monk levels running around Stormreach, since the splash would be hardly worthwhile.
Less? Obvious since it will be not overpowered anymore.

Hardly worthwhile?! That is untrue. We are talking ab out two free feats, +3 AC, +2 to all your saves and Evasion.

sephiroth1084
11-26-2008, 07:05 PM
Why do you say that? I don't know, just give them a large scale and make the Raiment +3 Dodge.

Ya, but it adds up. Making it a Shield bonus would be more logic and less dangerous.

Less? Obvious since it will be not overpowered anymore.

Hardly worthwhile?! That is untrue. We are talking ab out two free feats, +3 AC, +2 to all your saves and Evasion.

Oh, Tempest should likely grant a shield bonus, but should stack with TWD if the character takes it. I meant removing the +2 AC from Tempest is of nominal impact.

Making the IR a +3 Dodge would only matter if it didn't stack with the Chattering Ring, but then S&B would still get the short end of the stick, because we'd have to continue grinding the Titan, while TWF would be getting IR in the Sub. Not a bad idea, just frustrating from a looting standpoint. Maybe fix this by adding the CR to the Sub chest? =)

The 2 feats, if they were that important, could also be acquired from 2 levels of fighter, which would also bring with it +1 Str and Haste boost. The +3 AC would still likely be enough to warrant the 2 level splash, and the bonus to saves sweetens the deal some, though by itself I don't think many would make the dip. As for Evasion, depending upon who we are talking about it may be worthwhile or may be pointless (Rangers and Rogues are getting that also anyway).

Borror0
11-26-2008, 07:17 PM
Maybe fix this by adding the CR to the Sub chest? =)
Don't laugh, but I actually suggested this pre-Module 8.0

The 2 feats, if they were that important, could also be acquired from 2 levels of fighter, which would also bring with it +1 Str and Haste boost. The +3 AC would still likely be enough to warrant the 2 level splash, and the bonus to saves sweetens the deal some, though by itself I don't think many would make the dip. As for Evasion, depending upon who we are talking about it may be worthwhile or may be pointless (Rangers and Rogues are getting that also anyway).
What I'm saying is, there are clearly benefits to it. Compared to now, it's a big drop, but that is because of how overpowered the ability is.

sephiroth1084
11-26-2008, 07:21 PM
Don't laugh, but I actually suggested this pre-Module 8.0

What I'm saying is, there are clearly benefits to it. Compared to now, it's a big drop, but that is because of how overpowered the ability is.

I won't laugh, but I wish they had done so before I ran the titan around 35 times (to 20 completions) for that infernal ring.

There are benefits, yes, but it dramatically alters a lot of people's characters. It probably should have worked this way from the beginning, but undoing this would be painful.

Borror0
11-26-2008, 07:26 PM
It probably should have worked this way from the beginning, but undoing this would be painful.
...and that is why I always talk about adding a reroll button to the game.

Let's you redesign your character without the 6 month long grinding penalty which is the real problem here.

Borror0
11-26-2008, 08:09 PM
Not to mention, that if we do such gear-less balancing via enhancements or feats, we pigeon-hole the populace, since not taking these very powerful abilities will truly gimp your character.
But, the same can be said about gear. You know that right?

For example, if they add a new named shield with a +6 Dodge bonus on it, anyone who doesn't have it is utterly gimped. Whether you don't have it because you didn't feel like it or because you can't get one, either way your choices are limited to that very specific shield as you got to have it to improve your AC.

Same again can be said about the Aesop/Jeffywan Greater Bane suggestion.

Grimdiegn tried to make the point earlier in this thread that I was going to "overbalance" the feats and enhancements in order for Green Steel equipment. If you ignore the sarcastic and condescending tone he used to point that out, it's a fair point. However, that assumes equipment, feats and enhancements currently share the ratio they should. Which I disagree with.

The problem is two fold. First of all, if you don't have the said gear you are strongly penalized. That is a point I have discussed often in this thread and that can be addressed by making good gear easier to acquire. Placing something between the current easy to acquire loot and Green Steel equipment or by improving randomly generated loot.

Secondly, equipment currently does not allow customization. At least, clearly not as much as it should. There is too much of a vertical focus and not enough of an horizontal focus. There should be more bonus added that improve the character differently than just new bonus of AC, saves and the like. Trying to find new cool stuff. The reason to try to improve horizontally rather than vertically is that improving vertically forces you to pick that up. It creates a "If I don't have Chaosgarde, I'll be two points behind. I got to find a way to free up that bracer slot." You can't put anything else in that slot. You loose options.

Shifting some of that to enhancements and feats is a good idea, given that those matter far too little anymore. Especially feats.

Chaos000
12-01-2008, 01:06 PM
Guard-type effects are kind of underwhelming for someone focusing on S&B, since, presumably, the desire is to NOT get hit, and one would build oneself with that goal in mind, making Guards less effective since they would rarely activate.

I was thinking along the lines of someone tanking for a raid like vision of destruction. he's going to get hit eventually no matter how high his AC is. But if by being hit the attacker is affected by destruction...

currently guard items only do one or two dice worth of damage. If they upped it for shields or even tossed in a fire shield effect and/or tossed in some precentages a certain element is absorbed... it would definitely be worth it.

Alcides
12-01-2008, 01:34 PM
But, the same can be said about gear. You know that right?

For example, if they add a new named shield with a +6 Dodge bonus on it, anyone who doesn't have it is utterly gimped. Whether you don't have it because you didn't feel like it or because you can't get one, either way your choices are limited to that very specific shield as you got to have it to improve your AC.

Same again can be said about the Aesop/Jeffywan Greater Bane suggestion.

Grimdiegn tried to make the point earlier in this thread that I was going to "overbalance" the feats and enhancements in order for Green Steel equipment. If you ignore the sarcastic and condescending tone he used to point that out, it's a fair point. However, that assumes equipment, feats and enhancements currently share the ratio they should. Which I disagree with.

The problem is two fold. First of all, if you don't have the said gear you are strongly penalized. That is a point I have discussed often in this thread and that can be addressed by making good gear easier to acquire. Placing something between the current easy to acquire loot and Green Steel equipment or by improving randomly generated loot.

Secondly, equipment currently does not allow customization. At least, clearly not as much as it should. There is too much of a vertical focus and not enough of an horizontal focus. There should be more bonus added that improve the character differently than just new bonus of AC, saves and the like. Trying to find new cool stuff. The reason to try to improve horizontally rather than vertically is that improving vertically forces you to pick that up. It creates a "If I don't have Chaosgarde, I'll be two points behind. I got to find a way to free up that bracer slot." You can't put anything else in that slot. You loose options.

Shifting some of that to enhancements and feats is a good idea, given that those matter far too little anymore. Especially feats.

Borror0, what would you make of the following suggestions for accommodating player needs(balance issues aside). Assuming that item dodge bonuses of the same number do not stack.

1. Add a dodge ritual to accessories.
2. Allow all dodge rituals to be performed up to a maximum of 4 times on any item.

This would improve the following
1. Free up a tanking character's reliance on needing a chaosgaurde, chattering ring or icy raiment for maximum AC.
2. Icy Raiment users would not gain extra AC beyond what is already attainable. 3. S&B AC would go up by a maximum of 4.
4. The accessory dodge ritual could be composed of fairly easy to obtain collectibles to be more accessible to newer/existing players.

Borror0
12-01-2008, 02:02 PM
1. Add a dodge ritual to accessories.
2. Allow all dodge rituals to be performed up to a maximum of 4 times on any item.
Why not just remove the Icy Raiment then? Nearly the same result, less effort.

It'd also make low level AC quite easy to get. That is assuming you mean new rituals, not the ones we currently got. Otherwise, it wouldn't even work as they currently stack together and would keep doing so. So, basically, you could get +4 AC per accessory slot. That'd be insane.

Could you clarify what you meant?

1. Free up a tanking character's reliance on needing a Chaosgaurde, chattering ring or icy raiment for maximum AC.
Correction: It would make them useless.

2. Icy Raiment users would not gain extra AC beyond what is already attainable.
That's not true.

Everyone would gain +1. Icy Raiment users would get an extra +2. For a total of +3 AC.

Turial
12-01-2008, 02:33 PM
Borror0, what would you make of the following suggestions for accommodating player needs(balance issues aside). Assuming that item dodge bonuses of the same number do not stack.

1. Add a dodge ritual to accessories.
2. Allow all dodge rituals to be performed up to a maximum of 4 times on any item.

This would improve the following
1. Free up a tanking character's reliance on needing a chaosgaurde, chattering ring or icy raiment for maximum AC.
2. Icy Raiment users would not gain extra AC beyond what is already attainable. 3. S&B AC would go up by a maximum of 4.
4. The accessory dodge ritual could be composed of fairly easy to obtain collectibles to be more accessible to newer/existing players.

Do you mean the following? or am I missing something:

1. Dodge bonuses from items and rituals of equal magnitude do not stack, they can still stack with feats.
2. Dodge bonus rituals may be performed on armor, shields, and accessories.
3. There are now 4 dodge bonus rituals; least, lesser, dodge, greater for +1, +2, +3, and +4 respectively.

Maximum dodge bonus (non-feat based or spell based) = +10
Maximum total dodge bonus = +17

So one could wear the IR or have +4 dodge ritual, one could wear chattering ring or +3 dodge ritual, one could wear chaosguards or +2 dodge ritual, and +1 dodge ritual.

Seems like the type of system that would eliminate the need for atleast 3 items in the game as no one in their right mind would wear those items if they could simply apply a ritual for the same effect on an item of their choice.

Alcides
12-01-2008, 03:58 PM
Everyone would gain +1. Icy Raiment users would get an extra +2. For a total of +3 AC.

I missed the +2 AC. However, I was also proposing that dodge bonuses of the same magnitude not stack. So the maximum dodge you would be able to get from items is 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10.

Borror0
12-01-2008, 04:05 PM
I missed the +2 AC. However, I was also proposing that dodge bonuses of the same magnitude not stack. So the maximum dodge you would be able to get from items is 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10.
Would those replace the existing armor/shield ritual?

Otherwise, S&B would get +3 AC and Icy Raiment users would get +2. Either way, it'd make three existing items fall into uselessness. Why just not remove them instead?

Alcides
12-01-2008, 04:51 PM
Would those replace the existing armor/shield ritual?

Otherwise, S&B would get +3 AC and Icy Raiment users would get +2. Either way, it'd make three existing items fall into uselessness. Why just not remove them instead?

Basically, a +1/2/3/4 dodge bonus from any item/ritual would not stack with another respective +1/2/3/4 dodge bonus from any other item/ritual. So a +1 dodge ritual on a shield would merely overlap a +1 dodge ritual from armor or accessory not stack.

Borror0
12-01-2008, 04:53 PM
Basically, a +1/2/3/4 dodge bonus from any item/ritual would not stack with another respective +1/2/3/4 dodge bonus from any other item/ritual. So a +1 dodge ritual on a shield would merely overlap a +1 dodge ritual from armor or accessory not stack.
So, why not just remove IR, CR, CG and the Dodge AC ritual on DT armor? Or even just IR, CR the Dodge AC ritual on DT armor.

Alcides
12-02-2008, 03:13 PM
So, why not just remove IR, CR, CG and the Dodge AC ritual on DT armor? Or even just IR, CR the Dodge AC ritual on DT armor.

If these items/effects were removed from the game, basically you just wasted a bunch of people's time who acquired those said items/effects(most unprofessional).

Borror0
12-02-2008, 04:00 PM
If these items/effects were removed from the game, basically you just wasted a bunch of people's time who acquired those said items/effects(most unprofessional).
Unless you compensate with an unbound tome or something like that.