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View Full Version : An ode to a d40 system



Garth_of_Sarlona
11-18-2008, 05:39 PM
I know it's D&D and so DDO would never move to a d40 system, but I think it would be quite good in my little imaginary world, and fix some stuff that pains me e.g.

'Rolling a 1' would be a lot less likely, thus making things like soloing a lot more fun - and make high saves valued more. Under a d40 system, Armor Class work again - it would extend the range of 'being hit every time' and 'never being hit except on a 40' to 38 AC points rather than just 18, e.g. it would make the AC range 30-70 valued rather than just 50-70. In a d40 world weapons could have more fine grained critical ranges - e.g. rapiers could be 35-40 and kukris could be 36-40 (example, I'm sure the numbers would have to be tweaked)

Of course in the d40 system we'd have to get double skill points, and all the DCs would have to be changed, along with all the armor bonuses, all the critical ranges, BAB, enhancement bonuses, in fact almost everything in the game would have to be reworked - it would be a huge amount of work, so it would never actually be done, but I think it would be quite cool.

Thoughts? how else would a d40 system change the game?

Garth

Impaqt
11-18-2008, 05:45 PM
Hey, why dont we just change it to 2d20 instead? that way you can never actually roll a 1 and rolling a 40 would be much harder as well! Much easier game!@

sirgog
11-18-2008, 06:02 PM
Both suggestions, IMO, would improve the game at the cost of it feeling like D&D.

It'd solve a lot of the balance issues caused by huge stacking modifiers (for instance, +5 weapon, +9 to hit from two bard songs, +3 luck bonus to hit, etc etc) that allow most characters to hit most foes on a 2 on at least their second attack, and it would also as stated reduce the number of 'bad luck' episodes.

But, it would feel less like D&D if this was done. And, IMO, it's too late to do it now.

krud
11-18-2008, 07:48 PM
If you're gonna do that, why not go all the way to a d100? Everything can be calculated in percentages. It's already used in quite a few instances in the game (not counting the raid loot roll ;) ). Makes perfect sense when adding enhancement/feat/item percentages too.

metric D&D here we come!

Garth_of_Sarlona
11-18-2008, 07:49 PM
hey - at least with Inspire's 2d20 system you don't need to buy new dice!

Garth

Spisey
11-18-2008, 07:52 PM
hey - at least with Inspire's 2d20 system you don't need to buy new dice!

Garth


Unless you have a pleathera of d20's :) I know I have 5 I really like for pnp depending on what i need to roll :D

QuantumFX
11-19-2008, 12:23 AM
Both suggestions, IMO, would improve the game at the cost of it feeling like D&D.

It'd solve a lot of the balance issues caused by huge stacking modifiers (for instance, +5 weapon, +9 to hit from two bard songs, +3 luck bonus to hit, etc etc) that allow most characters to hit most foes on a 2 on at least their second attack, and it would also as stated reduce the number of 'bad luck' episodes.

But, it would feel less like D&D if this was done. And, IMO, it's too late to do it now.

It would be quicker and easier just to dump the +10 thru +20 to hit bonuses Turbine gives.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 05:58 AM
From a mechanic point of view, it would clearly be better. Or a d100 system would rock as well.

But...

RobbinB
11-19-2008, 10:54 AM
Definitely, a d40, d50, or d100 would be an improvement. I noticed in NWN that the d20 system simply didn't work that well as level 20 approached, and really broke down at the epic levels.

I don't agree that it's too late to change things. It's never too late to apply common sense to improve the game.

Dexxaan
11-19-2008, 11:10 AM
D100 would be the way IMO.

Better yet. WOTC should buy Steve Jackson Games and "GURPSize" DDO.

Talk about a working system without the huge playerbase D&D provides.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 12:59 PM
I don't agree that it's too late to change things. It's never too late to apply common sense to improve the game.
That would be to assume the only thing about a game is mechanics.

That is not true.

For example, Magic: the Gathering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_the_Gathering) has different types. Vintage, where about every card are allowed except a few banned and restricted ones. Legacy which contains the same pool of cards as Vintage but where all the restricted cards are banned instead. Extended where pool of cards is limited the last seven years of block rotations and core sets and Standard which consists of the most recent core set and the two most recent block rotations. Each type feel very different one to another.

Vintage players expend overpowered play. Standard players? Not as much.

While the rules are the same, the cards within the pool makes the game very different in itself. Something as core as the d20 in DDO or D&D might change the feel of the game further than what we want it to be. Of course, there is no certainty in it. There is a lot to be wary about when you want to change something core to the game.

Inkblack
11-19-2008, 01:30 PM
I'll trot out a previous suggestion I made:

As most know, the base AC is 10. It is possible to change that base 10 to a d20 roll. Therefore AC could vary over a 20 point range. In the interest of game performance, perhaps this could be done on a turn basis.

The affect looks something like this, where the probability of hitting something as its AC increases does not decrease linearly.
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r287/InkblackDDO/HitProbability2.jpg

The Take 10 line is the base 10, where the Opposed Roll is replacing the 10 with a random d20.

This is an optional 3.5 rule, which was discouraged due to the large number of dice rolls required. However, perhaps it is more relevant in the MMO space.

Ink

query
11-19-2008, 02:56 PM
why don't we ruin the entire D&D and other games based on the d20 system?

You want what was mentioned, play the conan RPG. That tabletop has rolls to hit and to miss too.

But when we start going 5x the last game for a game,you tread into cyberpunk and shadowrun.

remember how many dice we rolled for that balanced game?


And 4th ed out the way it is, ain't going to happen.

That said, start working on 5th ed and you got a supporter here!

Turial
11-19-2008, 03:37 PM
I'll trot out a previous suggestion I made:

As most know, the base AC is 10. It is possible to change that base 10 to a d20 roll. Therefore AC could vary over a 20 point range. In the interest of game performance, perhaps this could be done on a turn basis.

The affect looks something like this, where the probability of hitting something as its AC increases does not decrease linearly.
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r287/InkblackDDO/HitProbability2.jpg

The Take 10 line is the base 10, where the Opposed Roll is replacing the 10 with a random d20.

This is an optional 3.5 rule, which was discouraged due to the large number of dice rolls required. However, perhaps it is more relevant in the MMO space.

Ink

That would work much better in a MMO world then it ever did with dice. It also has the ability to increase the AC range by 12, 6 above (high AC is slightly less effective until you hit the new 95% miss) and 6 below (makes mid AC, high 40 - low 50, which is just barely useful currently, slightly more useful).

PhoenixRajoNight
11-20-2008, 12:08 AM
As was mentioned by a previous poster, a d100 system would be ideal. An actual percentage system works quite well. D&D PnP works ok with the d20 system, but when you start getting up there say past lvls 20 and 30 the game gets rather rediculous at times. The d20 sysem imho just does not translate well into a lasting mmorpg, this is why our lvl caps will continue to progress as slowly as they can, because i'm sure the hire ups, and most of the techs realise that this game cannot go past lvl 30 and not fall apart rediculously. This is also the reason they inacted enhancements into the game, mini levels inside each level. alowing us more out of a doomed system, I am sure that if turbine picks up for a ddo 2 they will change the system dramatically. The problem with the d20 system is that the number become inflated easily and deflated as well, as all of us have seen with ac meaning nothing in alot of cases with the level where its at now, it only gets worse. With the direction that most of the game is heading with the ladder dungeons its getting to be that breeze through the dungeon, just to get to some big bad guy at the end with rediculous hp, ac, abilities, spells, etc. that takes hours to widdle down in a certain way, or you party wipe in 3 secs, also using insane amounts of consumable resourses. I love the game and I will play it til it dies most likely, but I do hope that on ddo 2 they realize d20 system is doomed for a lasting mmo, and find the way to keep it as close to the d&d we love, but give us something more adaptable as well. I personally am working on a d100 system myself that i hope will work, well itll work, but hoping it will work with the parameters of d&d. Don't for a second think that i want ddo to die, but it will, and hopefully when it does we will pick up a lasting system with ddo 2.

Solmage
11-20-2008, 12:41 AM
Well, the way I see it, a D100 system is inherently superior.

(I am particularly fond of Rolemaster, so I'm somewhat biased, but I'll also admit that RM was made to be played with a computer/tablet PC to make the table lookups instantaneous, but I digress..)

However, the other important point is that switching out the D20 would truly impact the feel of the game. If you're going to do that, you might as well design an entire improved system, and hopefully you can do a better job than 4E of maintaining the D&D feel. It is nonetheless unlikely.

But hey, sign me up for the first DDO-like active combat Rolemaster-based MMO :)

Uska
11-20-2008, 04:16 AM
D100 would be the way IMO.

Better yet. WOTC should buy Steve Jackson Games and "GURPSize" DDO.

Talk about a working system without the huge playerbase D&D provides.

Hate gurps even more then 4E dnd 5th and 6th hero I cant tell how much I hate gurps

Uska
11-20-2008, 04:17 AM
why don't we ruin the entire D&D and other games based on the d20 system?

You want what was mentioned, play the conan RPG. That tabletop has rolls to hit and to miss too.

But when we start going 5x the last game for a game,you tread into cyberpunk and shadowrun.

remember how many dice we rolled for that balanced game?


And 4th ed out the way it is, ain't going to happen.

That said, start working on 5th ed and you got a supporter here!

WOTC ruined d20 already :mad:

Uska
11-20-2008, 04:20 AM
what would fix things better would be a reset and then a nerf to loot and mobs then system wouldnt have to be changed.

Hambo
11-20-2008, 09:00 AM
If you're gonna do that, why not go all the way to a d100? Everything can be calculated in percentages. It's already used in quite a few instances in the game (not counting the raid loot roll ;) ). Makes perfect sense when adding enhancement/feat/item percentages too.

metric D&D here we come!

I used to play a D100 game called "Arduin Grimoire". There was enough range that combat rolls could target specific areas of the body... say a 50 - 55 roll would hit the left leg, for example. The damaged area would be unusable until healed. There also were no vorpals, as a critical head shot always had a 1-5% chance, depending on your experience level.

More importantly there was room for "Critical Misses", that indicated that your swing with that broadsword missed the mob and hit the guy next to you, or that you whacked yourself in the back of the head with those nunchucks.

And hilarity ensued... :D

Also, since most rolls equate to a percentage, each number in D20 represents a 5% chance... D100 gives you a resolution of 1%.

krud
11-20-2008, 09:19 AM
I'll trot out a previous suggestion I made:

As most know, the base AC is 10. It is possible to change that base 10 to a d20 roll. Therefore AC could vary over a 20 point range. In the interest of game performance, perhaps this could be done on a turn basis.

The affect looks something like this, where the probability of hitting something as its AC increases does not decrease linearly.
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r287/InkblackDDO/HitProbability2.jpg

The Take 10 line is the base 10, where the Opposed Roll is replacing the 10 with a random d20.

This is an optional 3.5 rule, which was discouraged due to the large number of dice rolls required. However, perhaps it is more relevant in the MMO space.

Ink

i like this too. Really extends the range of useful AC, both for mobs and players.