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Draccus
11-13-2008, 10:32 AM
In D&D 3.0 and 3.5, if I recall, ranks in the Tumble skill increased AC. I think it was +1 AC/5 ranks in 3.0 and +1AC/10 ranks in 3.5. DDO, obviously, offers no AC bonus with high ranks in Tumble.

Instead of simply granting AC ranks, why not make it a bit more interesting and combine it with an enhancement. Offer a new enhancement, Rogue Armor Mastery, similar to the fighter enhancment but with a prerequisite of Tumble Ranks. Example:

Rogue Armor Mastery I: Increases max AC bonus for armor by 1. Prerequisite: 8 ranks in Tumble.
Rogue Armor Mastery II: Increase max AC bonus for armor by an additional 1 for a total of 2. Prerequisite: 13 ranks in Tumble.
Rogue Armor Mastery III: Increase max AC bonus for armor by an additional 1 for a total of 3. Prerequisite: 18 ranks in Tumble.

Junts
11-13-2008, 10:35 AM
The purpose of tumble is moving in VOD!

Roman
11-13-2008, 10:39 AM
/signed

+1AC/10 ranks in tumble would add a lot of benefit to an otherwise 2nd rate skill.

Deathseeker
11-13-2008, 10:40 AM
In D&D 3.0 and 3.5, if I recall, ranks in the Tumble skill increased AC. I think it was +1 AC/5 ranks in 3.0 and +1AC/10 ranks in 3.5. DDO, obviously, offers no AC bonus with high ranks in Tumble.

Instead of simply granting AC ranks, why not make it a bit more interesting and combine it with an enhancement. Offer a new enhancement, Rogue Armor Mastery, similar to the fighter enhancment but with a prerequisite of Tumble Ranks. Example:

Rogue Armor Mastery I: Increases max AC bonus for armor by 1. Prerequisite: 8 ranks in Tumble.
Rogue Armor Mastery II: Increase max AC bonus for armor by an additional 1 for a total of 2. Prerequisite: 13 ranks in Tumble.
Rogue Armor Mastery III: Increase max AC bonus for armor by an additional 1 for a total of 3. Prerequisite: 18 ranks in Tumble.

Umm...I'm thinking we don't need more AC for builds that generally dual wield and don't go S&B. We need it the other way around.

I like the thought process, just not the class that would likely take advantage.

If they are going to give out Icey Raiments like sub-prime home loans, and have it stack with the chattering ring, then any more AC bumps need to be targeted at shield users and armor wearing builds.

Yes, yes, I know not all rogues dual wield in robes...but I think a big portion do. And if the above were in effect, even more would...

Original
11-13-2008, 10:41 AM
/signed

rimble
11-13-2008, 10:46 AM
I think that's stretching things a bit...especially when we have Mobility, a Feat that adds +4 to AC while Tumbling. Rogues Mobility I, II, and III would make more sense as a set of Enhancements to tie to the Tumble skill.

I don't think Rogue Armor Mastery is a bad idea, I just don't see tying it to Tumble. It should raise the Max Dex Bonus on Light Armor only.

I also agree, in general, we need to help the Armor/Shield users first.

Dymond
11-13-2008, 10:48 AM
If they are going to give out Icey Raiments like sub-prime home loans,
don't have much say one way or the other.. but that made me laugh..

Deathseeker
11-13-2008, 10:59 AM
I don't think Rogue Armor Mastery is a bad idea, I just don't see tying it to Tumble. It should raise the Max Dex Bonus on Light Armor only.

I also agree, in general, we need to help the Armor/Shield users first.

Not a bad idea actually, raising the light armor dex bonus. This would help bring Dragontouched armor back somewhat vs Icey Raiments (well, the light armor version anyways). Not a dramatic change, but I'm for things like this that open up more build avenues instead of driving everyone down a single path toward one optimal build...

Noctus
11-13-2008, 11:10 AM
Neither in D&D 3.0 nor D&D 3.5 did Tumble give you a raise to your AC.

Only the defensive fighting combat action was raised in their benefit by 1 point, and the Full Defence action by 2 points, if you had 5 ranks in Tumble.

The implementation of Tumble in the NWN games was based on a house rule.


In DDO we dont need another AC benefit for pyjama wearing dodgers. Already now the full-plate clad knight with a shield is a dying breed, because he cant keep up with the AC.

Original
11-13-2008, 11:15 AM
Damn I wish I had my player's handbook handy but I am at work... 3.5 gives you higher ac thru tumble I swear it!

Lorien_the_First_One
11-13-2008, 11:16 AM
From the SRD:


If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC.

If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC when executing the total defense standard action instead of the usual +4 dodge bonus to AC.

If you have the Acrobatic feat, you get a +2 bonus on Tumble checks.

Synergy
If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you get a +2 bonus on Balance and Jump checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Jump, you get a +2 bonus on Tumble checks.

So in the DDO world that would translate to a +1 bonus while flighting defensively and a +2 bonus when sheild blocking.

Deathseeker
11-13-2008, 11:19 AM
...and a +2 bonus when sheild blocking.

Now we are talking...that would be very cool, and targeted where needed...

Lorien_the_First_One
11-13-2008, 11:29 AM
Actually if they are looking at tumble, this is a bigger issue for me...


DC 25 Tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy. Check separately for each opponent. Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.

On my high tumble D&D rogue it used to be great to jump and tumble through your opponants in battle - really kool. It would be nice to add this in so you could get past walls of mobs in DDO.

RavenStormclaw
11-13-2008, 12:59 PM
Actually I kinda like Lorien's idea. I would take it a step farther. Make an enhancement that allows you to flip jump over an enemy and get in a free backstab before they can turn around. Make success based off your tumble skill.

PurdueDave
11-13-2008, 01:18 PM
Damn I wish I had my player's handbook handy but I am at work... 3.5 gives you higher ac thru tumble I swear it!

You may be thinking of...
"If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC. If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC when executing the total defense standard action instead of the usual +4 dodge bonus to AC."

The primary PnP 3.5 use of tumble is to make a DC check to move without provoking an attack of opportunity. For non-PnP folks, this is a free attack you get if someone moves or does something else non-combat-like close enough that you can bash them for their carelessness.

Personally, I'd like to see a general skill beef up so that they all had some kind of interesting use, even if it's minor, that improved with more ranks. Say for tumble, the more skill you had the faster you do things like climb over ledges/boxes, or use higher of balance/tumble to stand up, etc.