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Aspenor
11-07-2008, 09:52 AM
All these people complaining about con damage weapons are suggesting a nerf to the symptom, or effect, of the actual reason that W/P weapons are so powerful.

One minor issue is the DDO interpretation of "puncturing." Puncturing is supposed to be a 3x/day "clickie" with a touch attack (not even a crit-based effect).


Rapier of Puncturing: Three times per day, this +2 wounding rapier allows the wielder to make a touch attack with the weapon that deals 1d6 points of Constitution damage by draining blood. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to the Constitution damage dealt by this weapon.

However, this is not the primary problem. The problem is metamagic.


Maximize Spell
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

Empower Spell
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Heighten Spell
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

Currently, my sorcerer has heighten, maximize, and empower activated constantly. Per DND rules, this should increase the required spell slot by more than 5 levels. A PnP level 16 wizard/sorcerer could not heighten a maximized/empowered first level spell beyond 3rd level. A level 16 wizard/sorcerer would not be able to maximize his disintegrate spell, as maximizing a level 6 spell would raise it to a 9th level spell slot, of which we have none.

A maximized/empowered Wall of Fire would also be a level 9 spell.

A maximized/empowered/extended Wall of Fire would be a level 10 spell, occupying an epic spell slot for a level 21 wizard or 22 sorcerer.

In DDO, we just have to expend a few more spell points, of which we have a whole, whole lot. This enabled the nuke-fest of Mod 5. The developers have designed around this, making direct damage inefficient for spellcasters as well as melees.

Unfortunately, fixing this problem would require a revamp and rebalancing of the entire game. Effort is better spent controlling a Monty Haul than redesigning entirely.

Aspenor
11-07-2008, 10:40 AM
I'm not sure I buy your argument, though I do see what you're getting at.

Clearly, there exists some numerical value of constitution, strength, and hit points whereby both direct damage and stat damage strategies would be roughly equal. Clearly also, hit points were increased without the same relative adjustment for statistics.

You also seem to be pointing to one addition (metamagic) that caused hit point inflation when there are a ton. For instance, all the enhancements and items that increase spell damage. Maybe you're simplifying, though.

Total balance is unnecessary. An argument could be made that stat damagers should be able to kill faster. After all, the items are rare and there are a number of creature types in D&D immune to stat damage (only some of which exist in DDO).
The magic enhancing items and enhancements are also an important contributor, but the major affector is metamagic, in my opinion.

Maximize spell alone is vastly superior to it's paper counterpart.

*edit* uhh...your post was there a minute ago....

Yshkabibble
11-07-2008, 10:40 AM
The basic problem is the kill count stat. People look at that during a quest see that the W/P guy just doubled their kills. W/P is nice, it's overpowered, but it's no game breaker. Remember it doesn't work on the named mobs where it really counts.

Samadhi
11-07-2008, 10:41 AM
I'm not sure I buy your argument, though I do see what you're getting at.

Clearly, there exists some numerical value of constitution, strength, and hit points whereby both direct damage and stat damage strategies would be roughly equal. Clearly also, hit points were increased without the same relative adjustment for statistics.

You also seem to be pointing to one addition (metamagic) that caused hit point inflation when there are a ton. For instance, all the enhancements and items that increase spell damage. Maybe you're simplifying, though.

Total balance is unnecessary. An argument could be made that stat damagers should be able to kill faster. After all, the items are rare and there are a number of creature types in D&D immune to stat damage (only some of which exist in DDO).

Asp's analysis is pretty right on. I really think one thing you said though is most important. "the items are rare." These items are not unbalancing to the game by the simple reason that they are TOO RARE to unbalance the game.

Most of the suggested fixes in the other thread would successfully make stat damagers less useful - but at the same time will either a) make melees completely obsolete to casters again or b) make vorpals, a much more common weapon, the new king.

Where it is, that a weapon so rare that people will trade half of what they own for one, is about right for what one of the most powerful weapons in the game should be. And this is a weapon that can't even be used on raid bosses!!

frugal_gourmet
11-07-2008, 10:46 AM
The magic enhancing items and enhancements are also an important contributor, but the major affector is metamagic, in my opinion.

Maximize spell alone is vastly superior to it's paper counterpart.

*edit* uhh...your post was there a minute ago....

Sorry, I realized there were some flaws and complications in my argument. I immediately wanted to revise it. Then I realized it might take a long time to get into that level of detail with the game.

But yes, I do agree with you partly.

I do think there is a way to obtain some sort of parity here without revamping. At this point, toning down maximize might be problematic. How about making maximize more like pen and paper so it only boosts the the variable stat and not the modifier? (it makes walls of fire better than in pnp).

The problem, of course, is then you have to go though and readjust the mobs hit points back down again. I don't see that happening.

I think we may have to just come up with a way to have monsters resist stat damagers or to boost their vulernable statistics without two many outlying complications (such as saving throws, to hit/damage, etc.)

T-MacForMVP
11-07-2008, 10:46 AM
now by the text of the feats i read it as a Maximized/Empowered Firewall would have to use a 6th lvl Spell (empowered) and ALSO a 7th lvl Spell (Maximized) the way that i read the wording of the feats the two dont combine to take away an even higher lvl spell it just takes 2 spells away instead...

frugal_gourmet
11-07-2008, 10:51 AM
b) make vorpals, a much more common weapon, the new king.


For some reason, vorpals I don't find too threatening. I think there's a decent amount of standard deviation with them to where they can have a frustrating bad streak. Plus, there are 5 monster types in D&D (and over 100 monsters) immune to them.

Come to think of it, a lot of monsters are immune to stat damagers too.

It would help to have more diversity in the end game. That probably means more variation in strategy. I think we're going to get there.

Aspenor
11-07-2008, 10:53 AM
now by the text of the feats i read it as a Maximized/Empowered Firewall would have to use a 6th lvl Spell (empowered) and ALSO a 7th lvl Spell (Maximized) the way that i read the wording of the feats the two dont combine to take away an even higher lvl spell it just takes 2 spells away instead...

Actually, this entry shows that a maximized/empowered fireball would be a level 8 spell.
3rd level spell
+3 maximized spell
+2 empowered spell
-----
8th level spell slot


Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

juniorpfactors
11-07-2008, 10:54 AM
this is DDO

and I have wop STOCK deal with it


jrp

Turial
11-07-2008, 10:54 AM
For some reason, vorpals I don't find too threatening. I think there's a decent amount of standard deviation with them to where they can have a frustrating bad streak. Plus, there are 5 monster types in D&D (and over 100 monsters) immune to them.

Come to think of it, a lot of monsters are immune to stat damagers too.

It would help to have more diversity in the end game. That probably means more variation in strategy. I think we're going to get there.

More mob diversity without simply adding silly buff immunities would be a welcome addition.

Aspenor
11-07-2008, 10:56 AM
this is DDO

and I have wop STOCK deal with it


jrp

yeah, I'm not really complaining about it. I'm just pointing these facts out. These are the differences in the system.

I have my own w/p stock as well :)

Turial
11-07-2008, 10:57 AM
...
However, this is not the primary problem. The problem is metamagic.
.....

Agree. Hard thing is balance, especially after mod 5 made multiple metamagic feats cost less to put together. I remember in BAM when casters could only manage 3-4 max/emp/extended firewalls before depleating their sp.

Drinkin
11-07-2008, 10:58 AM
I have a silly question for all your pnp guys. How many sp does a lvl 16 sorc have in pnp?

T-MacForMVP
11-07-2008, 11:01 AM
im not looking at any books or anything else besides this current thread (phb, DMG, etc) just from what u posted i would take it has each metamagic feat act for themselves but both have to be paid in order for u to get the damage boost from the feats

As in You cast a Maximized/Empowered Firewall (4th lvl Spell) and for you to use empowered you take away the use of an Acid Fog (6th lvl Spell), and the use of a Finger of Death (7th Spell),

because as for what u had posted there isnt anything that says the cost of the feats would stack (increase the spell level by 5), so in which i would take it as they cost a spell 2 Levels higher(empowered) and a spell that is 3 lvls higher(maximized), taking away a 2 spells in stead of taking the use of one 9th level spell in order to use both feats at the same time...

Aspenor
11-07-2008, 11:02 AM
I have a silly question for all your pnp guys. How many sp does a lvl 16 sorc have in pnp?

Unless you are playing a spell point variant (nobody does) a sorcerer does not have spell points. He 6 casts each level of spell levels 6 and below, 5 casts of level 7 spells, and 3 casts of level 8 spells.

A sorcerer also has spells known. He only knows 5 1st and 2nd level spells, 4 3rd, 4th and 5th level spells, 3 level 6 spells, 2 level 7 spells and one level 8 spell.

This does not count his bonus spells, of which he will probably have 1 bonus spell for levels 1-4. He may have spent a feat to know extra spells as well, or a feat to get more spell slots.

Turial
11-07-2008, 11:03 AM
I have a silly question for all your pnp guys. How many sp does a lvl 16 sorc have in pnp?

If you follow the SP rules in pnp....a bit more then wizards. Not on the order of double sp from items though.

Reisz
11-07-2008, 11:03 AM
The only problem I have with suffix stat damage is the crit based procs. This leaves bone breaking in the dust. A simple fix would be to have the suffix's proc on a natural 18-20 rather than on crit range.

This would also level the playing field for all weapons.

Just a suggestion.

Gunga
11-07-2008, 11:05 AM
All these people complaining about con damage weapons are suggesting a nerf to the symptom, or effect, of the actual reason that W/P weapons are so powerful.

One minor issue is the DDO interpretation of "puncturing." Puncturing is supposed to be a 3x/day "clickie" with a touch attack (not even a crit-based effect).



However, this is not the primary problem. The problem is metamagic.



Currently, my sorcerer has heighten, maximize, and empower activated constantly. Per DND rules, this should increase the required spell slot by more than 5 levels. A PnP level 16 wizard/sorcerer could not heighten a maximized/empowered first level spell beyond 3rd level. A level 16 wizard/sorcerer would not be able to maximize his disintegrate spell, as maximizing a level 6 spell would raise it to a 9th level spell slot, of which we have none.

A maximized/empowered Wall of Fire would also be a level 9 spell.

A maximized/empowered/extended Wall of Fire would be a level 10 spell, occupying an epic spell slot for a level 21 wizard or 22 sorcerer.

In DDO, we just have to expend a few more spell points, of which we have a whole, whole lot. This enabled the nuke-fest of Mod 5. The developers have designed around this, making direct damage inefficient for spellcasters as well as melees.

Unfortunately, fixing this problem would require a revamp and rebalancing of the entire game. Effort is better spent controlling a Monty Haul than redesigning entirely.

And yet, in spite of all this, the game plays really, really well. I like spending too many SPs and doing huge damage. I like dual wielding +3 WoPs and mowing **** down. And if you're (not you asp, but the whining community) jealous that you can't do that, then you should forget about starting threads on the forums flaming the community into nerfing yet another fun aspect of the game, and get back on your server and get you some. Life's short, kill something.

Aspenor
11-07-2008, 11:05 AM
im not looking at any books or anything else besides this current thread (phb, DMG, etc) just from what u posted i would take it has each metamagic feat act for themselves but both have to be paid in order for u to get the damage boost from the feats

As in You cast a Maximized/Empowered Firewall (4th lvl Spell) and for you to use empowered you take away the use of an Acid Fog (6th lvl Spell), and the use of a Finger of Death (7th Spell),

because as for what u had posted there isnt anything that says the cost of the feats would stack (increase the spell level by 5), so in which i would take it as they cost a spell 2 Levels higher(empowered) and a spell that is 3 lvls higher(maximized), taking away a 2 spells in stead of taking the use of one 9th level spell in order to use both feats at the same time...
reposted for emphasis


Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

rimble
11-07-2008, 11:08 AM
The only problem I have with suffix stat damage is the crit based procs. This leaves bone breaking in the dust. A simple fix would be to have the suffix's proc on a natural 18-20 rather than on crit range.

This would also level the playing field for all weapons.

Just a suggestion.

That's a neat idea...

Drinkin
11-07-2008, 11:08 AM
Unless you are playing a spell point variant (nobody does) a sorcerer does not have spell points. He 6 casts each level of spell levels 6 and below, 5 casts of level 7 spells, and 3 casts of level 8 spells.

A sorcerer also has spells known. He only knows 5 1st and 2nd level spells, 4 3rd, 4th and 5th level spells, 3 level 6 spells, 2 level 7 spells and one level 8 spell.

This does not count his bonus spells, of which he will probably have 1 bonus spell for levels 1-4. He may have spent a feat to know extra spells as well, or a feat to get more spell slots.

So why are we comparing apples to oranges?

frugal_gourmet
11-07-2008, 11:10 AM
The only problem I have with suffix stat damage is the crit based procs. This leaves bone breaking in the dust. A simple fix would be to have the suffix's proc on a natural 18-20 rather than on crit range.

This would also level the playing field for all weapons.

Just a suggestion.


Not a bad idea.

Aspenor
11-07-2008, 11:11 AM
So why are we comparing apples to oranges?

I'm comparing a Red Delicious Apple to a Jonathan Apple.

I'm not complaining, I'm pointing this out. I like DDO the way it is.

T-MacForMVP
11-07-2008, 11:13 AM
Uhm ya no **** dude, you should have added that when you first posted this thread, as that helps your post. If you posted that when u started the thread, there is no confusion, as for in the Original post there is nothing that says the 2 costs stack, so pretty much my second post did a poor job of telling you that it would have been wiser to add that in the original post :)

lol my second post was just telling you that your how your original "quoting/post" did/said nothing to help ur claim of the Stacking of Costs...

Edit: i also stated i wasnt looking at anything other than this thread so i dont know where you were quoting from... Just an FYI :-D

Aspenor
11-07-2008, 11:15 AM
Uhm ya no **** dude, you should have added that when you first posted this thread, as that helps your post. If you posted that when u started the thread, there is no confusion, as for in the Original post there is nothing that says the 2 costs stack, so pretty much my second post did a poor job of telling you that it would have been wiser to add that in the original post :)

lol my second post was just telling you that your how your original "quoting/post" did/said nothing to help ur claim of the Stacking of Costs...

if you're making a constructive criticism that i should add that to the OP, sure I can do that. :D

T-MacForMVP
11-07-2008, 11:17 AM
lol man that would be great, because hey man that adds to ur case and makes it all the stronger, good luck in the Debate :D

Samadhi
11-07-2008, 11:22 AM
The only problem I have with suffix stat damage is the crit based procs. This leaves bone breaking in the dust. A simple fix would be to have the suffix's proc on a natural 18-20 rather than on crit range.

This would also level the playing field for all weapons.

Just a suggestion.

Honestly I would think this would just make the slope steeper from a basic wounder to the ultra-rare - because now a puncturing rapier is worth less than a regular wounder - not more. Esp with the insane DR of many enemy mobs, this might be too drastic of a blow to dex builds.

Talon_Moonshadow
11-07-2008, 11:33 AM
I almost replied specifically to one players post here, but rather than talk about him, I'll talk about what I've seen in PUGs with W/P weps.

The Uber guys got em! And use them. They use them in PUGs. They get a lot of kills.

But they don't get that many more kills than the guy without them!

And they die just as much as everyone else.

These weps alone, do not make a char Superman compared to us mortals.

Now, I've also gotten my hands on a couple....one rapier.
And I've gotten my hands on a couple Rapiers of Punctering, and put one in the hands of a char with improved crit pierce.

Do doubt in my mind that my chars power went up dramatically!

They are powerful!

But not all-powerful.

And like anything else, work best when others in the group are also using them.

Two things make con dmage better than any other stat damage.

0 con kills!
And con damage effectively does HP damage.......so it effectively stacks with the HP damage that the rest of the party is doing, thus in a way, the whole group is doing the same kind of damage, therfore you get the additive tactic approach wothout even trying.

If the whole party used Str damage tactics, you would also see mobs die very fast.

I've been in several groups where 3+ people were ranging, and it was extrememly effective.... mobs die, no one gets hurt.
And ranged combat is definately gimped! But a coordinated ranged attack is extemely effective!

Two rangers can do DQ1 and not get hurt.
I Clericsed DQ1 for a group of non-rangers, most lvl 16, and used up all my mana fighting the DQ.... TWICE!

Yes, W/P is powerful, but not overpowering IMO.

Although, I would like to see mobs adapt to it, and have some defense.
Actually, it is because of W/P weps that I do not really want them to change red named immunities.

I do think that for every attack, there should be a defense......for players and monsters alike.

MondoGrunday
11-07-2008, 11:41 AM
it seems pretty clear that the "whiners" are the have nots and those who have wops, want to preserve their advantage.
the real problem lies where people go buy wops from 3rd party web sites to get an unfair advantage then post in here how poeple should stop whining and go play....:rolleyes:

Vivanto
11-07-2008, 11:47 AM
I don't see what's the prob with the current implementation of maximise.

In pnp it simply assumes you roll maximum with the dice, that statistically doubles your spell damage.
Not sure why they choose to roll and double that, maybe it was just easier to implement it like this, but statistically it is the exact same thing. They even went further and you can't maximise spells that do not have a dice in it.

I would be all up to limit metamagic usage to max spell lvl, if (there is always an if) they'd go back and change every single mob type according to it. And the bigger if : the metamagics would cost only so much extra sp that resembles the higher spell lvl, i.e. maximise should only cost +15 sp.

Tho I think the implementation to limit metamagics would be problematic.

Talon_Moonshadow
11-07-2008, 11:50 AM
Let me also add that I've seen a friend of mine take things down way faster with his Shroud (mineral 2 I think) rapiers way faster than he does with his punctering rapiers.

I'm not sure if he has w/p, but I know he has punctering and improved crit pierce.

And it is noticably faster with the Shroud weps......like twice as fast or more.

And even beore the Shroud weps, he tended to only use his con damagers when something was healing itself.

They are not the end-all of weps.

But yes, they are powerful.

Club'in
11-07-2008, 11:51 AM
You guys keep whining about people buying these things. But I've (out of curiosity) perused some of these plat farmers web sites, and they almost never have wounding of piercing for sale. Why? Cause they're really hard to find! Just a guess, but I would bet that the percentage of players who have bought these things from plat farmers is on the order of .001 percent.

Reisz
11-07-2008, 11:53 AM
Honestly I would think this would just make the slope steeper from a basic wounder to the ultra-rare - because now a puncturing rapier is worth less than a regular wounder - not more. Esp with the insane DR of many enemy mobs, this might be too drastic of a blow to dex builds.

Any Wounder is better than a Rapier of Puncturing
Any Wounder is basically equal to a Keen Rapier of Puncturing or (Rapier of Puncturing with Improved Crit)

The slope would actually be lower, because it would lower the effectiveness of the WoP rapier. MoBB weapons would be more desirable as well, further lowering the slope.

Of course 18-20 is just a suggestion. It could be 17-20 or whatever makes sense for the game. I am just not a big fan of these powers being based on crit ranges.

Lonewolfe
11-07-2008, 11:55 AM
Well, maybe everyone won't agree with me ( or even anyone), but IMHO we are on a never-ending cycle now of continually ramping up the baddies with unbelievable hps, immunities, unlimited sp, etc.....in an attempt to balance or make it fun to play. Each side gets more and more "tweaks" to make it even, but we are far from the roots of where we began. We wouldn't need WoP, current meta magic system, or any other "tweaks" if the monsters were closer to their PnP versions. Of course, the system is what it is because of the platform we are playing. I don't really have the solution other than to ramp things back down on both sides. However, we all know that isn't happening. Once you open the flood gates, it's hard to go back. I would like to see more realistic monsters, but few will be willing to let go of the gains that they have received. The real losers in this system are the casual players that don't have the time to play often enough to get the uber items. It would be nice if they would make normal for the casual players, hard for those that aren't decked out in the best gear, but are wanting a challenge and elite for those that have max'd their toons out so that they need highly inflated monsters to make it a challenge. I just realized I'm derailing Asp's post, so I'll end on this....We need the casual players every much as we need power gamers. The dev's and players need to realize and accommodate.

Zenako
11-07-2008, 11:57 AM
I don't see what's the prob with the current implementation of maximise.

In pnp it simply assumes you roll maximum with the dice, that statistically doubles your spell damage.
Not sure why they choose to roll and double that, maybe it was just easier to implement it like this, but statistically it is the exact same thing. They even went further and you can't maximise spells that do not have a dice in it.

I would be all up to limit metamagic usage to max spell lvl, if (there is always an if) they'd go back and change every single mob type according to it. And the bigger if : the metamagics would cost only so much extra sp that resembles the higher spell lvl, i.e. maximise should only cost +15 sp.

Tho I think the implementation to limit metamagics would be problematic.


Back in Mod 5 they changed the mechanics for MEtamagics.

They used to cost an increased PERCENTAGE of spell points to apply. So something like Maximize would cost and extra 50%, then if you added in Empower for another +30% that muitpled as well. Pretty soon you had top end spells costing well over a hundred spell points a pop.

When they changed the costs to fixed bumps, regardless of spell level, that enabled the casters to now cast equally powerful spells for a fraction of the previous cost in spell points. Instead of running out of spell points after just a handful of maximum pumped spells, it would now take over a score of spells to deplete the points. This meant that mobs and encounters that used to be a challenge in resource management now became simple nukage baths with the casters just blowing everything away.

That was the first real BIG change in the inflation curve.....

(Casters had been complaining about feeling useless and what not a lot....whatever)

Yaga_Nub
11-07-2008, 11:59 AM
yeah, I'm not really complaining about it. I'm just pointing these facts out. These are the differences in the system.

I have my own w/p stock as well :)

I keep telling you that you need to quit claiming those are yours and give them all back to me. I was just letting you look at them, I didn't mean for you to take them. ;)

Vivanto
11-07-2008, 11:59 AM
Any Wounder is better than a Rapier of Puncturing
Any Wounder is basically equal to a Keen Rapier of Puncturing or (Rapier of Puncturing with Improved Crit)

The slope would actually be lower, because it would lower the effectiveness of the WoP rapier. MoBB weapons would be more desirable as well, further lowering the slope.

Of course 18-20 is just a suggestion. It could be 17-20 or whatever makes sense for the game. I am just not a big fan of these powers being based on crit ranges.

For dex builds a puncturing rapier (or keen puncture if no IC) is better since with the low str they can barely punch some mob DR :)

Reisz
11-07-2008, 12:01 PM
Any Wounder is better than a Rapier of Puncturing
Any Wounder is basically equal to a Keen Rapier of Puncturing or (Rapier of Puncturing with Improved Crit)


Oops... Sorry forgot about Barbarian Critical rage.

Any Wounder is worse than a Rapier of Puncturing in the hands of a raging barbarian with CRI or CRII and Improved Crit Piercing.

Zenako
11-07-2008, 12:01 PM
Well, maybe everyone won't agree with me ( or even anyone), but IMHO we are on a never-ending cycle now of continually ramping up the baddies with unbelievable hps, immunities, unlimited sp, etc.....in an attempt to balance or make it fun to play. Each side gets more and more "tweaks" to make it even, but we are far from the roots of where we began. We wouldn't need WoP, current meta magic system, or any other "tweaks" if the monsters were closer to their PnP versions. Of course, the system is what it is because of the platform we are playing. I don't really have the solution other than to ramp things back down on both sides. However, we all know that isn't happening. Once you open the flood gates, it's hard to go back. I would like to see more realistic monsters, but few will be willing to let go of the gains that they have received. The real losers in this system are the casual players that don't have the time to play often enough to get the uber items. It would be nice if they would make normal for the casual players, hard for those that aren't decked out in the best gear, but are wanting a challenge and elite for those that have max'd their toons out so that they need highly inflated monsters to make it a challenge. I just realized I'm derailing Asp's post, so I'll end on this....We need the casual players every much as we need power gamers. The dev's and players need to realize and accommodate.

Sorry to say, but most real Casual Players probably don't even care. They likely have a small group of friends they play with and the concerns of the "uber" in end game quests have next to nothing to do with finding a better way to get past the traps in Greymoon or someplace like that.

Anyone who is a self proclaimed casual player who cares about how many uber weapons others have is not a casual player, they are a hard core player who does not have enough time to meet their own desires and wants a shortcut to success.

Vivanto
11-07-2008, 12:03 PM
Back in Mod 5 they changed the mechanics for MEtamagics.
[..]
I know that well enough ;)

But sadly thats the main source of inflated mob hp and the gripe about WoP.

WoP is only so powerful cause DPS isn't a viable option anymore due to inflated mob HP, and the inflation is mainly due to the huge nuke power that reigned in mod5.

If devs want to nerf casters, do it ffs, but by doing it in this twisted way of bumping mob HP they also nerfed everything else around them.

Zenako
11-07-2008, 12:05 PM
I know that well enough ;)


Cool, was just giving a quicky history blurb based on your forum join date....

Lonewolfe
11-07-2008, 12:19 PM
Sorry to say, but most real Casual Players probably don't even care. They likely have a small group of friends they play with and the concerns of the "uber" in end game quests have next to nothing to do with finding a better way to get past the traps in Greymoon or someplace like that.

Anyone who is a self proclaimed casual player who cares about how many uber weapons others have is not a casual player, they are a hard core player who does not have enough time to meet their own desires and wants a shortcut to success.

I would agree with the 1st paragraph, but I really think you underestimate "some" of the people we are talking about. True, there are many casual players that never take a toon even close to cap. However, there are also many that have been casual players long enough or dedicated time to just one toon in order to cap it. They should be able to play high end content w/out the need of uber weapons or pugs that zerg thru what takes them longer. Again, I think it is very easy to make normal for them, and hard/elite for others.

As for your 2nd paragraph, I see your point. However, because of the game stats, they need the better gear that you can only really get from grinding or paying real money for (which is insane). But yes, there are many who claim casual who really aren't. They just haven't pulled what they want and don't/won't put in the time to get it. Even more of a reason to make the changes I just talked about. They don't "need" max'd anything if normal was just that.

Dracolich
11-07-2008, 12:28 PM
I think it would be better for everyone if we STOP comparing DDO to PnP D&D for god sake. We can argue about every ability in this game not being true to PnP till we turn polka dotted in the face. Frankly I think this game would have been more successfull had it not even used the D&D name. Christ some people must be bored at work.

Aspenor
11-07-2008, 12:30 PM
Christ some people must be bored at work.
I am. You must be too, why else would you be posting here? :)

Gunga
11-07-2008, 12:32 PM
Me too. I'm even bored with this thread.

Turial
11-07-2008, 12:38 PM
I don't see what's the prob with the current implementation of maximise.

In pnp it simply assumes you roll maximum with the dice, that statistically doubles your spell damage.
Not sure why they choose to roll and double that, maybe it was just easier to implement it like this, but statistically it is the exact same thing. They even went further and you can't maximise spells that do not have a dice in it.

...

No, it is not the same thing statistacally.

A dice, 1d6, maximized will do 6 damage in pnp. In ddo that same dice, theoretically speaking because ddo caster dice are odd, could do anywhere from 2-12 damage. That same dice maximized, empowered would do 9 in pnp and 3-18 in ddo. Thats a bit of a difference.

Then add in that maximize and empower also affect static damage increasers, from caster levels, in DDO rather then just the variable portion. A maximized pnp firewall (CL 10) will deal 130 fire damage to anything stupid enough to walk through it. In ddo that same fire wall can deal 60 - 260 fire damage. Empowered you are looking at 195 vs 90 - 390.

Kistilan
11-07-2008, 12:39 PM
Me too. I'm even bored with this thread.

Ditto.

But I agree with Aspenor's primary post. I've also played for three years and still haven't pulled WoP, let alone puncturing. I seem to always get weakening items and enfeebling. I've nabbed 1 +2 tome that was non-1750 favor as an end-reward from a Hound Raid.

That said, these weapons do lend themselves to the ability to do harder quests -- but the dividing line is not only skill and time put into the game, but luck.

The game should reward skill far more often than luck. So I would like to see the inflated casting wittled, whicn in turn would wittle the inflated hit points, which in turn would wittle the inflated crit rage, which in turn would also make WoP really strong, but as they're rare, not the end-all because now a DPS or Finger of Death would be just as viable versus stat damage and area-effect maximized empowered extended level 6 spells.

Angelus_dead
11-07-2008, 01:06 PM
Currently, my sorcerer has heighten, maximize, and empower activated constantly. Per DND rules, this should increase the required spell slot by more than 5 levels.
Ha ha, there were threads on this back when the metamagic discount was announced (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116005).

Aspenor
11-07-2008, 01:10 PM
Ha ha, there were threads on this back when the metamagic discount was announced (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116005).

I would hope you know I remember those discussions and adapted them to the current proliferation of con-damage threads.

Do ya want me to reference it or something? :p

Vorn
11-07-2008, 01:10 PM
Bah, I'm bored at work, too.
I like WoP, and vorpals, metamagics, enhancements, greensteel, crit rage and the insane hp's of mobs--go large or not at all!!! I wish some of the mobs were smart enough to cast restoration/heal as well as deathward...will they never learn!!!!
:eek:

Vivanto
11-07-2008, 01:11 PM
No, it is not the same thing statistacally.

A dice, 1d6, maximized will do 6 damage in pnp. In ddo that same dice, theoretically speaking because ddo caster dice are odd, could do anywhere from 2-12 damage. That same dice maximized, empowered would do 9 in pnp and 3-18 in ddo. Thats a bit of a difference.

Then add in that maximize and empower also affect static damage increasers, from caster levels, in DDO rather then just the variable portion. A maximized pnp firewall (CL 10) will deal 130 fire damage to anything stupid enough to walk through it. In ddo that same fire wall can deal 60 - 260 fire damage. Empowered you are looking at 195 vs 90 - 390.

Nope, they are pretty close the same statistically.

pnp:: 1d6 maximised -> 6
ddo:: a d6 ranges from 1-6, average 3,5, ddo expresses in integers, makes it 3, after maximise -> 6
Sure the exact numbers can vary from 2-12 as that of 2d6 but the statistical average is still 7, only 1pt gain over the pnp maximise.

Last I knew DDO metamagics are additive not multiplicative, as that maximise and empower add up to a total of 250% spell power instead of 300%, with that your comparision is a bit off on the damage numbers and then again you ignore the statistical part.

That 60-260 damage translates to a 160 average, not too game breaking compared to its 130 pnp counterpart.

Gunga
11-07-2008, 01:12 PM
I wish some of the mobs were smart enough to cast restoration/heal as well as deathward...will they never learn!!!!
:eek:

I like it. You're way too bored.

Naso24
11-07-2008, 01:13 PM
The only problem I have with suffix stat damage is the crit based procs. This leaves bone breaking in the dust. A simple fix would be to have the suffix's proc on a natural 18-20 rather than on crit range.

This would also level the playing field for all weapons.

Just a suggestion.

I really like this suggestion. Wounders would be good as they are. WOP would be best. But it would level things out some.

Maladroit of bone breaking would also be a nice option which are currently not that useful. I'd like to add a suggestion to have bone breaking weapons do 1d6 damage per dex point damage (max 7d6 on maladroit of bone breaking) against skeletons on a 18-20 proc, since they have no dexterity, but you are doing bone breaking damage. This would also be good against red named that take no stat damage.

Angelus_dead
11-07-2008, 01:13 PM
ddo:: a d6 ranges from 1-6, average 3,5, ddo expresses in integers, makes it 3, after maximise -> 6
In DDO, a d6 ranges from 4-6 and averages 5.

Murderface
11-07-2008, 01:16 PM
All these people complaining about con damage weapons are suggesting a nerf to the symptom, or effect, of the actual reason that W/P weapons are so powerful.

One minor issue is the DDO interpretation of "puncturing." Puncturing is supposed to be a 3x/day "clickie" with a touch attack (not even a crit-based effect).



However, this is not the primary problem. The problem is metamagic.



Currently, my sorcerer has heighten, maximize, and empower activated constantly. Per DND rules, this should increase the required spell slot by more than 5 levels. A PnP level 16 wizard/sorcerer could not heighten a maximized/empowered first level spell beyond 3rd level. A level 16 wizard/sorcerer would not be able to maximize his disintegrate spell, as maximizing a level 6 spell would raise it to a 9th level spell slot, of which we have none.

A maximized/empowered Wall of Fire would also be a level 9 spell.

A maximized/empowered/extended Wall of Fire would be a level 10 spell, occupying an epic spell slot for a level 21 wizard or 22 sorcerer.

In DDO, we just have to expend a few more spell points, of which we have a whole, whole lot. This enabled the nuke-fest of Mod 5. The developers have designed around this, making direct damage inefficient for spellcasters as well as melees.

Unfortunately, fixing this problem would require a revamp and rebalancing of the entire game. Effort is better spent controlling a Monty Haul than redesigning entirely.

they could easily solve this by putting a low dc fort save on these effects. i kind of miss the days of caster dps working alongside with melee dps so reducing hp i dont think would make it all about the caster they can still put more mobs in then they have mana.

i must admit though i dont mind the way it is atm... some of these huge hp monsters that make u want to switch to wounder or vorpal is unfortunate though


wonders how many hp an elite xoriat protector has

MondoGrunday
11-07-2008, 01:19 PM
You guys keep whining about people buying these things. But I've (out of curiosity) perused some of these plat farmers web sites, and they almost never have wounding of piercing for sale. Why? Cause they're really hard to find! Just a guess, but I would bet that the percentage of players who have bought these things from plat farmers is on the order of .001 percent.

or perhaps there aren't any because they get bought up so fast, just a guess.....

Turial
11-07-2008, 01:21 PM
In DDO, a d6 ranges from 4-6 and averages 5.

Yeah, wonky caster dice.

Club'in
11-07-2008, 01:28 PM
or perhaps there aren't any because they get bought up so fast, just a guess.....

Posted just a few above yours:

"But I agree with Aspenor's primary post. I've also played for three years and still haven't pulled WoP, let alone puncturing."

I've been playing since beta, as well. Never pulled a wounding of puncturing. I have several guildies that have also been playing for almost three years now, probably averaging 15 to 20 hours a week, each. In the entire guild, one w/p bow. No melee weapons. But you'll continue to believe whatever, I'm sure...

Vivanto
11-07-2008, 01:33 PM
In DDO, a d6 ranges from 4-6 and averages 5.

And that's a problem with the dice, not with the metamagic.

Asherons_Chosen
11-07-2008, 01:38 PM
I think that the fact that a maximized/empowered spell costs as much as a spell 3 levels above it would cost is what they were going for; it means you can cast less spells per dongeon, but those fewer spells are more effective. Thats the general point of the metamagic feat is it not?

as w/ the stat damagers; I'm a fan of a larger variety of mobs that are immune to them... or mobs that are immune to one stat type but maybe not another.

sephiroth1084
11-07-2008, 01:42 PM
I have a silly question for all your pnp guys. How many sp does a lvl 16 sorc have in pnp?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

There is your answer...or a way to figure it out. But the spellpoints variant in PnP works much differently than the DDO version.

Zuldar
11-07-2008, 01:59 PM
Here's a radical idea to take care of the metamagic problem. How about if they implemented the recharge variant from the Unearthed Arcana book.

Essentially this would mean that casters could cast spells all day to their hearts content, meaning they'd be viable throughout the quest. But it would be balanced by the fact that each spell level would have a cooldown, which means that they might be only able to cast a handful of spells per encounter.

Most spells would have a general cooldown of several rounds depending on the caster's level and the spell level. Meaning something like wall of fire could have a 30 second cooldown. Metamagics would increase the spell level so therefore also increase the cooldown. A maximized, empowered, and extended firewall could take over a minute to cooldown.

In addition, certain more powerful spells could have specific cooldowns. So the more troublesome spells like haste or stoneskin could have a specific cooldown, i.e. haste could be 5 minutes or so.

This idea would increase a caster's power in the long run while reducing it on the encounter level. It would also encourage better playing and tactical spell use.

Gunga
11-07-2008, 02:01 PM
Here's a radical idea to take care of the metamagic problem. How about if they implemented the recharge variant from the Unearthed Arcana book.

Essentially this would mean that casters could cast spells all day to their hearts content, meaning they'd be viable throughout the quest. But it would be balanced by the fact that each spell level would have a cooldown, which means that they might be only able to cast a handful of spells per encounter.

Most spells would have a general cooldown of several rounds depending on the caster's level and the spell level. Meaning something like wall of fire could have a 30 second cooldown. Metamagics would increase the spell level so therefore also increase the cooldown. A maximized, empowered, and extended firewall could take over a minute to cooldown.

In addition, certain more powerful spells could have specific cooldowns. So the more troublesome spells like haste or stoneskin could have a specific cooldown, i.e. haste could be 5 minutes or so.

This idea would increase a caster's power in the long run while reducing it on the encounter level. It would also encourage better playing and tactical spell use.

Say you're sorry for that.

Zuldar
11-07-2008, 02:03 PM
Say you're sorry for that.

Heh I know, crazy radical idea.

Kistilan
11-07-2008, 02:04 PM
Here's a radical idea to take care of the metamagic problem. How about if they implemented the recharge variant from the Unearthed Arcana book.

Essentially this would mean that casters could cast spells all day to their hearts content, meaning they'd be viable throughout the quest. But it would be balanced by the fact that each spell level would have a cooldown, which means that they might be only able to cast a handful of spells per encounter.

Most spells would have a general cooldown of several rounds depending on the caster's level and the spell level. Meaning something like wall of fire could have a 30 second cooldown. Metamagics would increase the spell level so therefore also increase the cooldown. A maximized, empowered, and extended firewall could take over a minute to cooldown.

In addition, certain more powerful spells could have specific cooldowns. So the more troublesome spells like haste or stoneskin could have a specific cooldown, i.e. haste could be 5 minutes or so.

This idea would increase a caster's power in the long run while reducing it on the encounter level. It would also encourage better playing and tactical spell use.

This idea, as similar to 4th as I don't like, would be a reasonable fix if nothing else were corrected. The thread addressed WoP and the reason why ie metamagic & inflated hit points. If the other issues (metamagics, hit points, etc) were addressed in a more D & D style (not-so-inflated), then it would not be required.

But if nothing else ever is fixed, this would be a viable alternative. However, the zergers will be very angry if this were implemented. 5 min cooldown for a 2 min haste! *LOL* Get your Biohazard suit on -- some people are about to shat bricks.

Kistilan
11-07-2008, 02:05 PM
Say you're sorry for that. <=== See zee Zergers enraged at zee mere zight of zee ideaz.

Tin_Dragon
11-07-2008, 04:06 PM
Here's a radical idea to take care of the metamagic problem. How about if they implemented the recharge variant from the Unearthed Arcana book.

Essentially this would mean that casters could cast spells all day to their hearts content, meaning they'd be viable throughout the quest. But it would be balanced by the fact that each spell level would have a cooldown, which means that they might be only able to cast a handful of spells per encounter.

Most spells would have a general cooldown of several rounds depending on the caster's level and the spell level. Meaning something like wall of fire could have a 30 second cooldown. Metamagics would increase the spell level so therefore also increase the cooldown. A maximized, empowered, and extended firewall could take over a minute to cooldown.

In addition, certain more powerful spells could have specific cooldowns. So the more troublesome spells like haste or stoneskin could have a specific cooldown, i.e. haste could be 5 minutes or so.

This idea would increase a caster's power in the long run while reducing it on the encounter level. It would also encourage better playing and tactical spell use.

Dude, when you mess with haste, your asking for a riot on your face!

We'll ignore that, this time. :cool: