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Aesop
11-05-2008, 09:36 PM
K here is a couple of things I'd like to toss out there. Much of this I've posted before so don't be surprized by some repeat offenders... that said I do occassionally neaten ideas up change things when I've been enlightened or have new ideas that make the old ones seem silly. In fact that's why I'm posting this ... most of the changes are towards the end as well as the new stuffs ... though one or two new things snuck into the beginning too... ok I'm tired so without further delay

MORE FEAT ARE NEEDED: Here are just a very few ideas

Combat Form Feat : The First is Focus and it is a Prereq for all the rest. This would essentially be like Manyshot is set up now where you'd have 1-1.5 min of Combat Focus and then a 2-3 min cooldown. As you buy up the Feat all bought become part of the Focus...

Combat Focus
Requires a Wisdom score of 13
This Feat grants a limited duration (10 rounds +1/Combat Form Feat) Combat Focus. This Grants a +2 to Will Saves. If you have 3 or more Combat Form Feat the bonus increases to 4. Combat Focus is also the Prerequisite for other Combat Form Feats. Those Feat improve the benefits of the Combat Focus.

Combat Stability
Requires BAB+3 Combat Focus
Grants a +4 to resist Bull Rush Trip etc (Increase to +8 with 3+ Combat Form Feat)

Combat Defense
Requires BAB +6 Dodge and Combat Focus
Allows you to Switch your Dodge Target as an Immediate action (increase Dodge bonus by +1 with 3+ Combat Form Feats)
Modify for DDO to Grant an Additional +1 Dodge AC and +2 with 3+ Combat Form Feat

Combat Vigor
Requires BAB +9 Combat Focus
Gain Fast Healing 2 while Focused (4 with 3+ Combat Form Feat)

Combat Awareness
Requires BAB+12 Combat Focus
Benefit: Improves a Character's chance to passively Block an attack by 3%. If the Character has Three Combat Form Feat the benefit increases to 5%

Combat Strike
Requires BAB +15 Combat Focus 2 other Combat Form Feat
Grants the ability to expend your Focus to gain a bonus to attack and damage = to number of Combat Form Feats for the current turn
Modify to just grant a Bonus to Damage (maybe +2) while in Combat Focus



Ranged Combat Suggestions

Ranged Combat Rebalancing: Ranged Combat feels like an after thought that is the bastard stepchild of an abusive alcoholic schizophrenic. It still needs a little love but it doesn't seem to get any at home. So put the stepparent on prozac and lets get by this.

a. RoF: I've posted this a number of times but here it goes again. The RoF of Ranged attacks is far too low relative to Melee. I understand that Melee actually has to be up close and personal with the baduns so risk taking more damage vrs ranged who is well... ranging. However that is a benefit of Ranged combat. The benefits of Melee vary a little. Sword and Shield has better blocking DR when they use it and are great for Intimitank play. They also typically have heavier armor options and Shields can carry other useful effect on them like Deathblock or Resistances. Two Handed Fighters do Strength and 1 Half Damage and get glancing blows for a bunch more damage. Two Weapon Fighters are the Quisinarts of the DDO world and attack a huge number of times (though possibly not as many as they should). That said the following should be considered.

1. Change the base RoF of Ranged attacks to 60% that of Sword and Shield Melee(hence forth with regard to Ranged RoF referred to as Melee). (if melee swings 100 times in a minute then Archers and thrown weapons should fire off 60 shots without any modifiers)

2.Rapid Shot should increase the RoF to 75% that of Melee

3.The Feat Improved Rapid Shot should be implemented to give an additional 10% bringing Ranged to 85% the RoF of Melee

4. Manyshot should be changed to a Stance with the following conditions and modifiers.
4a. Many Shot cannot be used in conjunction with Rapid Shot or Improved Rapid Shot thus reducing the RoF back down to 60% Melee.
4b. Numbers of Arrows used should be selectable with limitations by BAB. 2 at BAB 6, 3 at BAB 11, and 4 at BAB 16.
4c. Each arrow should give a cumulative penalty. I suggest -2 to hit for the first additional arrow and -1 for each beyond that and a RoF penalty of -5% per additional arrow thus reducing the RoF of a Many Shot to 45% at BAB 16 with 4 Arrows flying and a -4 to hit penalty. (note: In PnP Many Shot is a Standard Action which means it can only be fired once per round and comes with a penalty of -8 for firing 4 arrows at the same time. While this (sorta) works in PnP in a Real Time MMO the penalty would be slightly out of balance with the rest of combat to have the RoF reduced to 20% melee)

b. Ammunition: Ranged needs a better selection of Ammunition.
1. Basic Elemental types should be made available to purchase. Flaming, Frost, Acid and Shock. Favor Rewards should be implemented to make available other ammunition types (Holy, Axiomatic, Burst effect, Cursespewing etc... almost any weapon effect can be placed on ammunition)

2. From the SRD
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. I would like this translated into all normal ammo being 10% returning and Masterwork and magic being 15%(or more) returning.

Range: Range and distance seem a bit off right now.

1. Please increase the Range increments. As it stands now, Point Blank Shot only kicks in at a range almost being able to swing a sword at the critter I'm attacking. 30 ft seems much closer to 10.

2. Also add in Range Increments. Even if it is only 5 of them with the ranges being touch, short, medium, long and extreme. Throwing a hammer from across the valley shouldn't hit as effectively as an Arrow from 10 ft. This brings me to the next part

3. Penalties. have penalties kick in beyond medium range. -2 for long range and -4 for extreme. let Point Blank range be within the Short Range category.

4. Implement Far Shot as a Feat. Have Far Shot increase the effective range of Point Blank Shot to Medium and decrease penalties by 2. (note let this also affect Sneak Attack range)

Bow Strength: I understand that when first starting it appeared that rangers needed a little love... and they might have. I also understand that in an environment where crafting was not existent that requiring Composite bows that match your characters strength could get problematic. However making Archery a Ranger only ability is a bad bad thing. If you needed to, just add Bow Strength to Point Blank Shot and give the Bow Strength to rangers anyway (since they bypass PBS and go straight on to Rapid Shot). Fighters and other range Centric characters shouldn't need to splash Ranger to make an archer.



Shield Combat Suggestions

Alchemical Rituals
Have the bonuses be based on Shield or Armor type. I'm for a +1 apply to Light Armor, Cloth Armor, Bucklers and Light Shields, and a +2 for Medium and Heavy Armor and Heavy and Tower Shields.

I also suggest a second tier of Alchemical Rituals that require a Shield Previously Enchanted by the first tier ritual that applies the same bonus and a Blocking DR or Deflection Bonus.

Example:
Alchemical Ritual of Blocking : Ingredients: Bound Alchemically Enhanced Shield, 25 Greater Earth Soul Stones.
Effect: Improves the Blocking DR of the Shield by 2 for Bucklers and Light Shields and by 4 for Heavy and Tower Shields

Additionally there is a Feat in the Players Handbook 2 called

Shield Specialization
We could have this Feat grants +1 AC when using Bucklers or Light Shields and a +2 to Heavy and Tower Shields. This Feat also increases the Maximum Dex Bonus of Tower Shields by 1 and increases the DR while blocking with a shield by 5.

I’d have this feat replace the Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery Feats.


Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
Grant DR 2/- with that type of Armor

kinda blah really... maybe the following

Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
This Feat Increases the Maximum Dexterity Bonus that may be applied to a given set of Armor by 1. However to keep with the original intent we could give Armors a Natural Blocking DR based on TYpe and have this Feat improve that by 2 as well.

Light Armor: 1
Medium Armor: 2
Heavy Armor: 3

and this Feat could improve that by 2 as well



Passive Shield Blocking
Turbine has added another aspect to Sword and Shield fighting; Blocking DR. Blocking DR is only useful if you completely sacrifice Damage. Sword and Shield Fighting already has the second lowest Damage of all the styles (Ranged being the lowest ... with the exception of 20 sec per 2+ min period of time) so the proposal is to make the Blocking DR do something that is useful outside of standing there and taking shots. Give shields a % chance to "Automatically" block a blow. Each hit taken has a percent chance of having the characters Blocking DR absorb part of the blow.

Example: Robot Chicken a Warforged Fighter has a Blocking DR of 30 and gets struck by his old friend Harry for 65 damage. However using that Tower Shield that he does he has a chance to catch that 65 damage on the shield and turn aside 30 of it and because it is a Tower Shield that he uses its a pretty good chance.


Give a Straight Base Chance Based on Shield Type.

1 Weapon no Shield: 1%
Two Weapon no TWD: 2%
Buckler: 3%
Light Shield:5%
Heavy Shield: 10%
Tower Shield: 15%

Now add in a Feat modified from the PLayers Handbook 2

Active Shield Defense
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the ability to make Attacks of Opportunity (AoO) while Fighting Defensively without Penalty

Well we don't have AoO in DDO so something different and I think this lends itself well to increase the Passive Shield Blocking with a Shield by 5%


Active Shield Defense: +5%

then modify the TWD Feat as follows


Two Weapon Defense and Two Weapon Blocking: I suggest we combine these into a single Feat.
Two Weapon Defense : Grant the Character a +1 Shield AC when fighting with Two Weapons and increases the Characters Blocking Damage Reduction by 2 points. It also increases the Characters Chance to Passively Block a Shot by 2%.


Improved Two Weapon Defense : Grant the Character a +2 Shield AC when fighting with Two Weapons and increases the Characters Blocking Damage Reduction by 4 points. Passive Blocking improves by 2% while Two Weapon Fighting.

Greater Two Weapon Defense : Grant the Character a +3 Shield AC when fighting with Two Weapons and increases the Characters Blocking Damage Reduction by 6 points. Passive Blocking improves by an additional 2% while Two Weapon Fighting.


TWD line: +2% each

Also change up the THF feats a little to give them a little more oomph

Two Handed Fighting: Improves the Damage of a Characters Glancing Blows. Increases the chance to Passively Block an attack by 1% and improves the effects of a Characters Strength from Strength times 1.5 to Str x 1.65.

Improved Two Handed Fighting:Improves the Damage of a Characters Glancing Blows. Increases the chance to Passively Block an attack by an additional 1% and improves the effects of a Characters Strength from Strength times 1.5 to Str x 1.8.

Greater Two Handed Fighting:Improves the Damage of a Characters Glancing Blows. Increases the chance to Passively Block an attack by an additional 1% and improves the effects of a Characters Strength from Strength times 1.5 to Str x 2.

THF line: +1% each

Additionally have the BAB of a character be a factor in the Passive Blocking. After all ones experience in combat would also improve your awareness and reflexes for parrying attacks

BAB: +.5% each

Also have Armor type factor in as well to complete an all around gathering of factors that will help combatants mitigate the damage

Light Armor +1%
Medium Armor +3%
Heavy Armor +5%


Short Form:


1. Improving mitigation through use of a Passive Blocking mechanic.
a: Progressive Passive bonuses based on BAB combined with bonuses from Feat, and the improving bonuses based on types of Shields that give a percent chance to absorb the damage taken with the character's Blocking DR.
b:A sequence as follows may be a good way to implement.
1 Weapon no Shield: 1%
Two Weapon no TWD: 2%
Buckler: 3%
Light Shield:5%
Heavy Shield: 10%
Tower Shield: 15%

Active Shield Defense: +5%
Combat Awareness: 3% (Increases to 5%)

TWD line: +2% each
THF line: +1% each

BAB: +.5% each

Light Armor +1%
Medium Armor +3%
Heavy Armor +5%

examples:
So a Level 20 Fighter with the Active Shield Defense a tower shield and Adamantine Full Plate would have a 35% chance to Block a shot without actively blocking. With Combat Awareness this improves to 40%.

A Level 19/1 Ranger Monk wearing Robes with the full TWD line would have 17.5% chance to block a shot. With Combat Awareness this improves to 22.5%.


a 20 Barbarian with full THF line wearing a Breastplate would have 17% chance to block a shot. With Combat Awareness this improves to 22%.



a 20 Barbarian with full THF line wearing a Breastplate and a buckler with the Active Shield Defense Feat would have 21% chance to block a shot. With Combat Awareness this improves to 26%.



Shield Bashing (or how to marginally improve S&B Damage):


a:One perhaps two passive Shield Bashing Attacks based on attack sequence. Perhaps on the second and fourth or fifth attack in a sequence have a shield bash hook.

b: The Feat Improved Shield Bash could have a new effect built in that when a character Blocks an attack the amount of damage blocked is reflected back at the attacker.


Two Handed Fighting Suggestion:

Allow Bucklers to fit into the offhand slot even though the Primary hand slot is occupied by a Two Handed Weapon, thus allowing THF to use Bucklers returning to them a valuable equipment slot and giving them better AC and effect options. To balance the new flexibility apply an attack penalty while using a buckler and a two handed weapon at the same time.



Aesop

Cowdenicus
11-05-2008, 10:32 PM
Looks good Aesop

Kistilan
11-05-2008, 10:46 PM
I <3 the way you think.

Very good suggestions.

Verlock
11-05-2008, 11:03 PM
I liked the seeker one best. good way of bringing fighters back:) i mean shot i may even play mine if that was added

Aesop
11-06-2008, 03:48 AM
Looks good Aesop

Hey Cow Long time no see.


You back for a while?

I was starting to miss ya :D


Aesop

Turial
11-06-2008, 08:01 AM
As before...good ideas.

Now we just need the follow through on the other side.

Xyfiel
11-06-2008, 08:53 AM
Some additions:

1) The Wizard community would like to be able to learn all spells. Include a spell training system at class trainers(8th level spells?). "Hello Xyfiel the wizard, I can teach you certain rare spells. All you need are the inscription materials." Really, with the changes to AI, spell durations, and new content, there isn't much reason to have banned magic anymore.

2) Can we add bulls str potions to high end potion vendors. My main has to go to rusty nail and only the rusty nail to get these. If I have missed another place let me know.

3) Greensteel handwraps, dragontouched shields.

4) Deepwood sniper needs a permanent effect. +1 crit multiplier? Also would like to see a subtle Archery ability/enhancement.

5) Some ideas for Virtuoso
Tier I - Your Inspire Competence song affects all party members, You have immunity to soundburst.
Tier II - Your Song of Freedom affects all party members, You have immunity to shout.
Tier III - Your Inspire Heroics affects all party members, You have immunity to greater shout.

6) Wotm
Tier I - You gain +2 to attack, damage, saves, and skill checks against Contructs. You gain the repair Contruct ability. (Basically a lay on hands Warforged only and Intelligence modifier, have 3)
Tier II - You gain an additional +2 to attack, damage, saves, and skill checks against Contructs. You gain 3 additional uses of repair Construct.

Ringos
11-06-2008, 09:14 AM
I couldn't read the whole post, but I could have swore I saw 'robot chicken' while doing a quick scan...I may need to read the whole thing. :)

Aesop
11-06-2008, 03:36 PM
Some additions:

1) The Wizard community would like to be able to learn all spells. Include a spell training system at class trainers(8th level spells?). "Hello Xyfiel the wizard, I can teach you certain rare spells. All you need are the inscription materials." Really, with the changes to AI, spell durations, and new content, there isn't much reason to have banned magic anymore.


I like that one


2) Can we add bulls str potions to high end potion vendors. My main has to go to rusty nail and only the rusty nail to get these. If I have missed another place let me know.


Sounds Reasonable to me


3) Greensteel handwraps, dragontouched shields.


Or something for each of those categories


4) Deepwood sniper needs a permanent effect. +1 crit multiplier? Also would like to see a subtle Archery ability/enhancement.

Definatley needs an upgrade


5) Some ideas for Virtuoso
Tier I - Your Inspire Competence song affects all party members, You have immunity to soundburst.
Tier II - Your Song of Freedom affects all party members, You have immunity to shout.
Tier III - Your Inspire Heroics affects all party members, You have immunity to greater shout.


Again something needs tweaking in that PrE


6) Wotm
Tier I - You gain +2 to attack, damage, saves, and skill checks against Contructs. You gain the repair Contruct ability. (Basically a lay on hands Warforged only and Intelligence modifier, have 3)
Tier II - You gain an additional +2 to attack, damage, saves, and skill checks against Contructs. You gain 3 additional uses of repair Construct.


WotM definately needs some lovin





Aesop

DagazUlf
11-06-2008, 03:49 PM
Lookin' good.

Aesop
11-09-2008, 09:20 PM
OK a little elaboration on the Passive Blocking thing.

I'd say have the Armor apply a bonus to the %chance to passively Block.

so lets take option 2 (because its less complicatted)


Option 2:
Give a Straight Base Chance Based on Shield Type.
No Shield: 1%
Two Weapon Defense: 5% (modified to be useful… see below)
Buckler: 5%
Light Shield: 10%
Heavy Shield: 15%
Tower Shield: 25%


In Addition have the Active Shield Defense Feat apply a +5% Bonus to all Shields (TWD doesn’t count). This makes it a little less complicated and a little less powerful but still has a significant edge to S&B combatants.

So with the feat you’d have
No Shield: 1%
Two Weapon Defense: 5% (modified to be useful… see below)
Buckler: 10%
Light Shield: 15%
Heavy Shield: 20%
Tower Shield: 30%


Now have light armor add a +1%
Medium Armor add +3%
and Heavy Armor add +%5

Which would mean with the Active Shield Defense Feat and wearing Heavy Armor (like Dragon touched Full Plate) a Tower Shield Tank would Block incoming Shots 35% of the time reducing the damage he takes in said shot by his Blocking DR. This rewards the Heavy Armor Wearer a little and I think that balances out the extreme AC that Dex Heavy Light-no armor wearers can have.


Now another thought I pondered is "Is this too powerful at low levels" Well an option on this would be to reduce the numbers a bit and have BAB play into it say Half round down %... or something like that.


I know this is a game changing idea but I think that it is one that would work well in terms of balnce and in terms of balancing the styles.

Aesop

Aesop
11-09-2008, 09:23 PM
A note about WotM...

I was thinking today why not have the Wrack Construct ABility a part of that series... beef it up a touch but say at ter 1 3d6 extra Damage to Constructs and at tier 2 5d6 (or maybe 6d6) and 9d6 at tier III.

I mean as it stands the rogue PrEs .. are a little weak. The Assasinate is decent but limited in scope and the Immunity to trip is nice... except that ya still get bounced around a lot... and way of the mechanic has.... nothing that I can think of

Aesop

Aesop
11-10-2008, 04:32 AM
I'm also thinking that perhaps the THF line might improve the Passive Blocking a smidge as well

Maybe up to 5 or so %.


I'm also thinking that we need a Progression based on BAB as well... so that there is a feeling of improvement over time.


Maybe tread things down a touch

1 Weapon no Shield: 1%
Two Weapon no TWD: 2%
Buckler: 3%
Light Shield:5%
Heavy Shield: 10%
Tower Shield: 15%

Active Shield Defense: +5%

TWD line: +2% each
THF line: +1% each

BAB: +.5% each

Light Armor +1%
Medium Armor +3%
Heavy Armor +5%

So a Level 20 Fighter with the Active Shield Defense a tower shield and Adamantine Full Plate would have a 35% chance to Block a shot without actively blocking

A Level 19/1 Ranger Monk wearing Robes with the full TWD line would have 17.5% chance to block a shot

a 20 Barbarian with full THF line wearing a Breastplate would have 17% chance to block a shot


Aesop

Voalkrynn2
11-10-2008, 05:04 AM
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Feelings+-+by+Gemini&btnG=Search
Video link must be in here somewhere

dragnmoon
11-10-2008, 06:19 AM
Looks good Aesop

What The?....When did you get back..... What Guild ya in Now man?

Aesop
11-10-2008, 03:47 PM
A little more about Improved Shield Bash

Tell me what you think of this modyfication to the Feat.

When a Character with this Feat successfully Blocks an attack the amount of damage Blocked is reflected back at the Attacker.

ie: Mungo swings and Hits Kargon with a Brutal strike for 80 points of damage, but Kargon sucessfully Blocks the Shot absorbing and reflecting back 30 of the Damage.

Would that be too Weird?
Would that be too powerful?
Would that be a nice way to give the Shield Fighters a Slight Damage boost?
Am I crazy?... don't answer that.

Aesop

roggane
11-10-2008, 03:50 PM
wondering as i haven't read anywhere??

did they release more rituals this past mod? (collectable crafting, etc)

great post btw.

Turial
11-10-2008, 03:56 PM
A little more about Improved Shield Bash

Tell me what you think of this modyfication to the Feat.

When a Character with this Feat successfully Blocks an attack the amount of damage Blocked is reflected back at the Attacker.

ie: Mungo swings and Hits Kargon with a Brutal strike for 80 points of damage, but Kargon sucessfully Blocks the Shot absorbing and reflecting back 30 of the Damage.

Would that be too Weird? Nope
Would that be too powerful? Maybe
Would that be a nice way to give the Shield Fighters a Slight Damage boost? Maybe
Am I crazy?... don't answer that. Like a fox!

Aesop

Thorn damage setups like what you are proposing are interesting and can lead to some odd builds. Take a WF with the DOD and a Hound shield....That is 40+ damage that can be blocked by item DR only, not counting base blocking DR at the moment. It is also 40+ damage that will head right back at the attacker.

Add in a few choice guard items and you are looking at one spiky turtle...on the order of 100+ points of damage each swipe because every hit will trigger most of the guard items.

Add in a little bio-feedback and you have oddlived soloing almost every raid in the game (not that he can't already).

Aesop
11-10-2008, 04:14 PM
Thorn damage setups like what you are proposing are interesting and can lead to some odd builds. Take a WF with the DOD and a Hound shield....That is 40+ damage that can be blocked by item DR only, not counting base blocking DR at the moment. It is also 40+ damage that will head right back at the attacker.

Add in a few choice guard items and you are looking at one spiky turtle...on the order of 100+ points of damage each swipe because every hit will trigger most of the guard items.

Add in a little bio-feedback and you have oddlived soloing almost every raid in the game (not that he can't already).

Well one thing about this is what is the damage type... if its just Bludgeoning then a lot of Mob DR will reduce said damage anyway. If its based on the Shield and what DR the Shield beats that could be a little "better", as long as they put a few decent Captain America Shields out there ;)

Also this would only work on Melee obviously so no spacking an Archer from a mile away or Clubing a Mage who throws a Lightning Bolt... though that would be fun :D

You could also limit it stricktly to Blocking DR ... so that the WF with the DoD couldn't do so much damage... though that matters a little less to me, personally I wouldn't mind that.

Aesop

Aesop
11-10-2008, 11:34 PM
wondering as i haven't read anywhere??

did they release more rituals this past mod? (collectable crafting, etc)

great post btw.

I haven't seen anything released with new Alchemical rituals, though perhaps there have been some and we need to find them in game in libraries or something... I doubt it because they'd at least give us a good hint about it.


Aesop

samagee
11-11-2008, 01:24 PM
Feat wise I would like to see the mental casting feats offered in the action point buying system. I have not read through the rest yet, however I wanted to throw that part in.

Aesop
11-11-2008, 01:33 PM
Feat wise I would like to see the mental casting feats offered in the action point buying system. I have not read through the rest yet, however I wanted to throw that part in.

Which ones?

I'd like to see the Feats Extra Spell

with a little modification they could add an extra slot no higher than one level lower than the Caster can Cast so a Sorc 15 could take the Feat to pick up one extra 1st - Sixth level (not one odf each but one 5th level or 1 2nd level etc)


I would also like more Metamagic Feat added as well. Something to make more builds viable and add interesting things to the game

Aesop

samagee
11-11-2008, 01:38 PM
Which ones?

I'd like to see the Feats Extra Spell

with a little modification they could add an extra slot no higher than one level lower than the Caster can Cast so a Sorc 15 could take the Feat to pick up one extra 1st - Sixth level (not one odf each but one 5th level or 1 2nd level etc)


I would also like more Metamagic Feat added as well. Something to make more builds viable and add interesting things to the game

Aesop

Forinstance move mental toughness to the action point system. I would like to see the feat spell affinity added as well, which would help castor types like sorcerers and bards. This would free up more feats for those types of castors if things like mental toughness were moved to the action point system.

Aesop
11-11-2008, 01:42 PM
Forinstance move mental toughness to the action point system. I would like to see the feat spell affinity added as well, which would help castor types like sorcerers and bards. This would free up more feats for those types of castors if things like mental toughness were moved to the action point system.

In effect they already have them in the various Energy of the _____


I'd actually perfer they just give us the eextra SP and get rid of the Feats all together.

Just give us an extra 50 every 5 levels of a caster class


AP are already gonna be stretched thin by PrEs and Feat would be better to have more interesting things than sucking up 2 Feat for an extra 210 or so SP

Spell Affinity ... I forget which that is.

Refresher?

Aesop

Dworkin_of_Amber
11-11-2008, 01:49 PM
A few other random thoughts/ideas to toss out:

Spellcaster Feat Suggestion (I know many of these exist somewhere in some sourcebook, but I don't know where)

1) Extra Spell Slot: A Feat that allow you to get one extra spell slot at one specific level. (ie. One Feat gives you +1 Level 5 Spell Slot) - Set that you can only take on a spell level where you already have all 4 slots for balance purposes?

2) Add Improved Extend/Empower/Maximize/Heighten for ALL Caster Classes (Wiz, Sorc, Cleric, Bard)... not just Wiz/Sorc. I would suggest that 75% + of all Clerics carry Maximize and Extend... but no Metamagic Improvements for them?

3) Either add *ALL* Scrolls into the game again (let's be honest, Wall of Fire scrolls are not broken anymore), or add a way to "learn" spells that you can't otherwise find. Yes, you can learn them at level-up, but if you are already past that level of spells, you can't learn it. We need ways for Wizards to finish out their spellbooks without waiting forever for a random scroll to drop!

4) Elemental Resistance, Mass!!!!! We got Protection from Elements, Mass, but no Resist Elements?



Dragonmarks:
1) The Dwarven Marks just plain suck. Please revisit these... maybe House Kudarark had a coup, and a major magical battle, and their plane shifted for the storyline purposes, but they need help.

2) We have 3 Tiers of DM's.... where is the 4th Tier?
-Human Mark of Passage: Expeditious Retreat, Dimension Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport?
-Elven Mark of Shadow: Invisibility, Displacement, Shadow Walk, Mass Invisibility
-Halfling Mark of Healing: CLW, CSW, Heal, Mass CSW
Just for some suggestions

3) What about another Enhancement Line for DM's?
-Dragonmark of Power 1
--Increases Duration or Effectiveness of Dragonmark Abilities by +50% (Ie. a 1/2 Extend or an Empower Spell on the DM Effect)
-Dragonmark of Power 2
--Increases Duration or Effectiveness of Dragonmark Abilities by +75%
...etc



Other Random Thoughts:
1) Please Please Please Please PLEASE do something with Mobility!!! Tumble AC is useless in DDO... please do something with it to make it not a completely wasted feat!
2) Tumble Spell - Shouldn't it increase in effect just like Jump?
3) Cleric End-Reward Tables - PLEASE decrease the Armor and Shield weighting on these end rewards SIGNIFICANTLY!!! Too many times Clerics get 4 Armors, 3 shields, and a single wand/weapon as an end reward... and it is all just horrible!!!
4) Dragontouched Armor - PLEASE add Chain Shirt, or some other actual armor choice for Evasion Characters!!!! Or add Mithral as a Rune Option. Shield Blanks would be AWESOME too!
5) Paladin's still need an Intimidate-like effect instead of Diplomacy for DDO. I know it isn't "by-the-rules", but Diplomacy, as it works in DDO is not at all Paladin-like.... Intimidate is!!!

valorik
11-11-2008, 02:05 PM
haven't gotten through everything, what I have read is exceptional, although to be honest I can't think of a time the devs actually implemented a player's suggestion.

Aerendil
11-11-2008, 02:10 PM
Dragonmarks:
1) The Dwarven Marks just plain suck. Please revisit these... maybe House Kudarark had a coup, and a major magical battle, and their plane shifted for the storyline purposes, but they need help.


2) We have 3 Tiers of DM's.... where is the 4th Tier?
-Human Mark of Passage: Expeditious Retreat, Dimension Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport?
-Elven Mark of Shadow: Invisibility, Displacement, Shadow Walk, Mass Invisibility
-Halfling Mark of Healing: CLW, CSW, Heal, Mass CSW
Just for some suggestions

3) What about another Enhancement Line for DM's?
-Dragonmark of Power 1
--Increases Duration or Effectiveness of Dragonmark Abilities by +50% (Ie. a 1/2 Extend or an Empower Spell on the DM Effect)
-Dragonmark of Power 2
--Increases Duration or Effectiveness of Dragonmark Abilities by +75%
...etc


Couple of Dragonmark comments:
1) some dragonmarks just don't translate well into DDO unfortunately. Mark of Hospitality, Mark of Scribing, Mark of Handling are just a few out of many (12 total dragonmarks). So not surprisingly, not all will be of equal use in a game where combat is the main focus.
So I agree here - perhaps, for the sake of balance, Dwarves should get something else here.

2) adding a 4th dragonmark could be a bad idea, considering that there is no PnP equivalent. I would, however, love to see Aberrant Dragonmarks as well as Siberys Dragonmarks ingame...

3) this would be useless on some dragonmarks, such as "teleport" or "shadow walk", and overpowered on others (i.e. halflings running around with +75% heals).

While we're at it, I'd like to add my vote to finishing the races and classes, please.
It's been almost 3 years since initial release now... time to wrap that up, given that 99% of D&D people *expected* some of these missing classes and races from the start.

Some good ideas in this thread, though. Hopefully some make it live someday.

samagee
11-11-2008, 02:18 PM
In effect they already have them in the various Energy of the _____


I'd actually perfer they just give us the eextra SP and get rid of the Feats all together.

Just give us an extra 50 every 5 levels of a caster class


AP are already gonna be stretched thin by PrEs and Feat would be better to have more interesting things than sucking up 2 Feat for an extra 210 or so SP

Spell Affinity ... I forget which that is.

Refresher?

Aesop


It comes from the D20 Ultimate Feats guide.

Through research, study, introspection, or inspiration, a bard or sorcerer is able to learn more spells.

Preq: Int 13+, ability to cast 1st lvl spells with out preparation.

Benefit: You gain spells based on your Int attribute . These spells are added to your number of spells known. This feat does not increase the number of spells you can cast per day.

Special: These bonus spells can not be combined with bonus spells provided by any other feat (based on ability score) except cantrip.

Aesop
11-12-2008, 05:06 PM
ever since I posted this thread I've had songs from the Buffy Musical going through my head... lets see if I can get rid of them by feeding them to the thread


Buffy:
Every single night
The same arrangement
I go out and fight the fight
Still I always feel
This strange estrangement
Nothing here is real
Nothing here is right
I’ve been making shows of trading blows
Just hoping no one knows
That I’ve been
Going through the motions
Walking through the part
Nothing seems to penetrate my heart
I was always brave
And kind of righteous
Now I find I’m wavering
Crawl out of you grave
You find this fight just
Doesn’t mean a thing
Vampire:
She ain’t got that swing
Buffy:
Thanks for noticing
Demon and vamps:
She does pretty well with fiends from hell
But lately we can tell
That she’s just
Going through the motions
Faking it somehow
Demon:
She’s not even half the girl she-ow…
Buffy:
Will I stay this way forever
Sleepwalk through my life’s endeavor
Handsome young victim man:
How can I repay-
Buffy:
-Whatever
I don’t want to be
Going through the motions
Losing all me drive
I can’t even see if this is really me
And I just want to be
Alive

Invalid_50
11-13-2008, 07:52 AM
the ranged combat suggestions are very nice Aesop, but what about repeaters? If those modifications were added (especially the many shot now being a stance) why would anyone ever want to bother with repeaters (i know they have a better crit range and all, but they lack bow strength and have a hard time penetrating DR as it is.) Pretty much their biggest bonus right now is their speed. if you implement these additions what do you do with repeaters to make them an attractive alternative?

Turial
11-13-2008, 09:24 AM
the ranged combat suggestions are very nice Aesop, but what about repeaters? If those modifications were added (especially the many shot now being a stance) why would anyone ever want to bother with repeaters (i know they have a better crit range and all, but they lack bow strength and have a hard time penetrating DR as it is.) Pretty much their biggest bonus right now is their speed. if you implement these additions what do you do with repeaters to make them an attractive alternative?

Better crit range was all repeaters ever had going for them in pnp. They currently have both speed (240 attacks per 2 min to bows 106 non manyshot or 159 manyshot) and that critical range going for them. They were much slower in pnp due to taking some thing like a move action to reload even with all applicable feats.

The lack of bow str is an issue but crossbows have never been able to have additional str added to them. I would go the way of the named weapon from the desert which simply gives a + to hit and damage.

With any ranged weapon that allows for ammunition to be used, throwing weapons get the shaft here, you should find it very easy to bypass DR as you can mix effects from the weapon itself and the ammuntion you carry. For the DQ use a holy or pure good repeater with cold iron bolts. Harry, holy or pure good repeater and silver bolts. Orthons and bearded devils, silver bolts on normal and holy or pure good repeater and silver bolts for everything else. The only thing that ammunition based ranged combat can't deal with would be mithral type, unless you use a transmuter, and barbarian DR. At that point its less of an issue because the better crit range will help boost damage.

Aesop's basic changes would move bows (I'm pretty sure Aesop isn't talking about crossbows at all for these changes) to 60 attacks per min 120 per 2 min base, 70 attacks per min 140 per 2 min with rapid shot, 80 attacks per min 160 per 2 min with improved rapid shot, and 40 manyshot volleys per min (1.5 seconds between shots, similar to ranged combats shots around BAB 6) at -8 to hit for 160 attacks per min 320 attacks per 2 min.

The -8 to the to-hit is pretty devistating when you factor in an additional -4 for moving and shooting, unless you have SOTR...which I am one of the few rangers who actually have this, for a total of -12 to-hit. GH gives +4 and a good bard song will get rid of the -8 (I think) which leaves the ranged combat user at base dex + BAB for their to-hit. They won't be able to put as many points into str to help bow str as current ranged combat users with 1 level of ranger can.

With all that factored in I think repeaters will still be an attractive option due to better critical range and good rate of fire.

Borror0
11-13-2008, 09:38 AM
ever since I posted this thread I've had songs from the Buffy Musical going through my head... lets see if I can get rid of them by feeding them to the thread
There's a Buffy musical?! Odd.

Borror0
11-13-2008, 09:45 AM
Please Please Please Please PLEASE do something with Mobility!!! Tumble AC is useless in DDO... please do something with it to make it not a completely wasted feat!
Add Slicing, Spring Attack and a few others to that list.


Paladin's still need an Intimidate-like effect instead of Diplomacy for DDO. I know it isn't "by-the-rules", but Diplomacy, as it works in DDO is not at all Paladin-like.... Intimidate is!!!
Hopefully, if we repeat often enough, they will do it. A bit like Divine Might.

I have often suggested to separate Diplomacy in two: Diplomacy (scatter) & Diplomacy (gather).

Brigadoom
11-13-2008, 09:53 AM
A little more about Improved Shield Bash

Tell me what you think of this modyfication to the Feat.

When a Character with this Feat successfully Blocks an attack the amount of damage Blocked is reflected back at the Attacker.

ie: Mungo swings and Hits Kargon with a Brutal strike for 80 points of damage, but Kargon sucessfully Blocks the Shot absorbing and reflecting back 30 of the Damage.

Would that be too Weird?
Would that be too powerful?
Would that be a nice way to give the Shield Fighters a Slight Damage boost?
Am I crazy?... don't answer that.

Aesop

I find it way to powerful if that were to come to place. Lets take a WF for example, you can get with feats and enhancements a passive DR of 9 - adamantine, almost as good as stone skin, then get the Hound tower or heavy shield, and you can the best DR shield in the game... combine with Barbarian DR enhancements or Titan docents, that WF would only have to shield block, never take damage, and still damages his enemies, convert that to a 4 wf tank party with 1 caster and 1 clr, and all they do is shield block a door... It leaves to much room for exploits if you ask me.

Turial
11-13-2008, 10:21 AM
There's a Buffy musical?! Odd.

You find that odd? Wait till you see Jane's Town from Firefly or Dr. Horribles Sing-Along-Blog. He likes doing musical numbers.

Aesop
11-13-2008, 03:54 PM
I find it way to powerful if that were to come to place.

Ok fair enough ... lets see if I can change your mind


Lets take a WF for example, you can get with feats and enhancements a passive DR of 9 - adamantine, almost as good as stone skin, then get the Hound tower or heavy shield, and you can the best DR shield in the game... combine with Barbarian DR enhancements or Titan docents, that WF would only have to shield block, never take damage, and still damages his enemies, convert that to a 4 wf tank party with 1 caster and 1 clr, and all they do is shield block a door... It leaves to much room for exploits if you ask me.

What you have here is this


Warforged Adamantine Body: DR2/Adamantine
if they dedicate every Feat they have to 3,6,9,12,15,18= +6
DR 8/Adamantine
Warforged Enhancements 3

DR 11/Adamantine


this doesn't stack with Barbarian DR or any other form of passive DR (stoneskin, Bard Iron Skin Chant, Titanic Docent etc) ...

that's the first thing... also its a kinda useless build that would miss out on a lot of useful other Feat.

but the Blocking DR on say a level 20 version of this guy assuming the Feat Changes and additions and everything would be


Passive DR + [(BAB / 2) + 2 + Shield DR rating (now includes Shield Enhancement) + Shield Mastery Feats + Shield Mastery Enhancements]

11/Adamantine + [(20/ 2) + 2 + 15 + 5] = 43

with the Titanic Docent active its (a clickie that has a short duration)

30+ [(20/ 2) + 2 + 15 + 5] =62 ... for a short duration and essentially the Best possible Blocking DR currently in game. with a DoD wearing WF coming in second for a limited duration and a Dwarven Barb specced for Shields coming in third (also thought of as severely gimping their character)

it also has no effect against spells and the recirpical damage wouldn't apply against Ranged Attacks.

and holding aggro becomes problematic

also Mobs that attack from the sides and back would not be effected as the Blocking DR only applies to Frontal assaults.

Also unless he is using a shield that would bypass the DR of the Mob that is attacking him (which wouldn likely not be a Hound shield) that damage is further reduced.

Also as Mobs generally attack slower than players this mob will be alive much much longer and have the potential to do even more damage to the party.

Also any Barb that can't do more damage faster is really in need of an assist anyway.

Also as a Sword and Board based character the potential damage is less than half that of a TWF character this would really only reduce that margin only slightly... perhaps to 5/9ths.

Also on Mobs like Harry and Sally and in fact most of them this wouldn't even block all the damage... in some cases not even 2/3. So you'd still be taking damage and you'd be killing the Mob slower thus allowing him to damage you more and cast more spells or other effects.

Another thing that the Devs could do with this and in fact I wonder why I don't see more of this in the game. Why don't a lot of the Mobs have Effect Attacks. Sure they do 75 Damage a Swing but where is the Unholy Burst of Maiming? Effects that bypass the fortification of the character and burst regardless.



Well that's what I think

Aesop

Aesop
11-13-2008, 06:03 PM
Giles:
I\'ve got a theory
That it\'s a demon
A dancing demon - nyehh, something isn\'t right there
Willow:
I\'ve got a theory
Some kid is dreaming
And we\'re all stuck inside his wacked broadway nightmare
Xander:
I\'ve got a theory, we should work this out
Willow,Anya,Tara,Xander:
It\'s getting eerie
What\'s this cheery singing all about
Xander:
It could be witches
Some evil witches
Which is ridiculous \'cause witches they were
Persecuted Wicca good and love the earth and
Women power and
I\'ll be over here
Anya:
I\'ve got a theory
It could be bunnies...
Tara:
I\'ve got a -
Anya:
Bunnies aren\'t just cute like everybody supposes
They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses
And what\'s with all the carrots
What do they need such good eyesite for anyway
Bunnies, bunnies
It must be bunnies...
Or maybe midgets
Willow:
I\'ve got a theory, we should work this fast
Giles,Willow:
Because it clearly could get serious before it\'s passed
Buffy:
I\'ve got a theory
It doesn\'t matter
What can\'t we face if we\'re together
What\'s in this place that we can\'t weather
Apocalypse
We\'ve all been there
The same old trips
Why should we care
Group:
What can\'t we do if we get in it
We\'ll work it through within a minute
We have to try
We\'ll pay the price
It\'s do or die
Buffy:
Hey, I\'ve died twice
Group:
What can\'t we face if we\'re together
Giles:
- What can\'t we face
Group:
What\'s in this place that we can\'t weather
Giles:
- If we\'re together
Group:
There\'s nothing we can\'t face
Anya:
Except for bunnies...

Turial
11-13-2008, 06:11 PM
.....
Anya:
Except for bunnies...

You just had to go there..

Jayne
The man they call Jayne
He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor
Stood up to the Man and he gave him what for
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain
The Hero of Canton, the man they call Jayne


Now Jayne saw the Mudders' backs breaking
He saw the Mudders lament
And he saw the magistrate taking
Every dollar and leaving five cents
So he said, "You can't do that to my people"
He said "You can't crush 'em under your heel"
Jayne strapped on his hat
And in five seconds flat
Stole everything Boss Higgins had to steal
He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor
Stood up to the Man and he gave him what for
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain
The Hero of Canton, the man they call Jayne


Now here is what separates heroes
From common folk like you and I
The man they call Jayne
He turned 'round his plane
And let that money hit the sky
He dropped it onto our houses
He dropped it into our yards
And the man call Jayne
He turned 'round his plane
And headed out for the stars
He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor
Stood up to the Man and he gave him what for
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain
The Hero of Canton, the man they call Jayne!

Bad Horse, Bad Horse
Bad Horse, Bad Horse
He rides across the nation, the thoroughbred of sin
He got the application that you just sent in
It needs evaluation, so let the games begin
A heinous crime, a show of force
(a murder would be nice of course)

Bad Horse, Bad Horse
Bad Horse, he’s bad
The evil league of evil is watching so beware
The grade that you receive’ll be your last, we swear
So make the bad horse gleeful, or he’ll make you his mare
You’re saddled up; there’s no recourse
It’s “hi-yo, silver!”
Signed: Bad Horse.

There that's all the musical in me...

Borror0
11-13-2008, 06:17 PM
Has Aesop derail her own thread?!:eek:

Aesop
11-13-2008, 06:19 PM
Has Aesop derail her own thread?!:eek:

Nope just giving it a Bump so to speak


I just need more people to comment so that we can have a discourse as oppoesed to the thread being lost to the bowels of the forum

Aesop

Turial
11-13-2008, 06:26 PM
Add Slicing, Spring Attack and a few others to that list.


Hopefully, if we repeat often enough, they will do it. A bit like Divine Might.

I have often suggested to separate Diplomacy in two: Diplomacy (scatter) & Diplomacy (gather).

Slicing could work similar to the weapon attribute, 1d8 damage to targets that bleed vs the attack to deal 1d4 damage seconds later and over short time.

SOTR was good back when you couldn't move and shoot. I would imagine that turning SA and SOTR back to a point where you couldn't move and attack would be very bad. How about allowing for attack progression during movement if you have either SA and/or SOTR?

Power critical feats could add +4 seeker damage in addition to their seeker bonus to confirm crits.

Hamstring and sap could work with ranged weapons. That would be a huge boost...especially as a good number of mobs can range hamstring players.

Mobility could provide +2 AC when moving and +4 when tumbling rather then just +4 during tumbling.

Borror0
11-13-2008, 06:28 PM
I just need more people to comment so that we can have a discourse as oppoesed to the thread being lost to the bowels of the forum
If you want my opinion, most of it is fine. If taken alone.

If all of it would be implemented, then it would be an horrible idea. At least at the moment. There's a few thing I dislike... let me comment on these.

Aesop
11-13-2008, 06:31 PM
Slicing: First it should Bypass DR decond it should improve over the course of leveling.

Mobility +2 Dodge Ac while Moving +4 while Tumbling (I thought I already put that down though)

Spring Attack could Speed up Attack Animation while Moving or something like that
say 10%

Aesop

Aesop
11-13-2008, 06:31 PM
If you want my opinion, most of it is fine. If taken alone.

If all of it would be implemented, then it would be an horrible idea. At least at the moment. There's a few thing I dislike... let me comment on these.

That's what you said last time and you never did :p

:D

Aesop

Borror0
11-13-2008, 06:38 PM
That's what you said last time and you never did :p
I know, but I'm down to shield feats right now. It's coming. :P

Borror0
11-13-2008, 06:58 PM
Fighter Critical Accuracy: make this a Seeker effect that stacks with Seeker effects as opposed to the current only a plus to critical confirmation. Maybe increase the level requirements for it though. Maybe have the first one be at 5 the second at 10, next at 15 and the last at 20 or something like that.
I have a few reserves on that.

First of all, +8 Seeker might be a lot. How about +1 to damage on a crit and +2 to confirmation per swing? Secondly, I'd make it require Power Critical. Might make that feat useful at least. Finally, I would open it to everyone but would make it cheaper for fighters.

WotM seems underpowered relative to the other lines and drastically underpowered when stood up next to the new Paladin PrE.
I will certainly agree to that one. Same for virtuoso which is currently simply a joke.

Bow Strength:[...] However making Archery a Ranger only ability is a bad bad thing. If you needed to, just add Bow Strength to Point Blank Shot and give the Bow Strength to rangers anyway (since they bypass PBS and go straight on to Rapid Shot). Fighters and other range Centric characters shouldn't need to splash Ranger to make an archer.
I would simply make of Bow Strength a normal feat.

It would fit the pattern that most ranger class abilities are general feats anyway.


Shield Specialization
This Feat grants +1 AC when using Bucklers or Light Shields and a +2 to Heavy and Tower Shields. This Feat also increases the Maximum Dex Bonus of Tower Shields by 1 and increases the DR while blocking with a shield by 5.

I’d have this feat replace the Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery Feats.
I like this version better as it gets rid of SM and ISM at the same time.

Another thing to consider is the Armor Mastery Enhancements. I think a slight change here would be better for fighters. Make the Armor Mastery Line only 2 tiers and create a Separate line called Armor Optimization that instead of increasing the Max Dex Bonus increases the Armor Bonus.
Personally, I would do it differently as described here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1927685&postcount=43).

You could however add a +1-2 AC bonus to the Armor Mastery/Armor Optimization feat that was added.



Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
Grant DR 2/- with that type of Armor
I think that armors that have a natural DR/- should stack with this ie: Adamantine Full Plate would become DR5/-
Two comments. First, it's pretty lame. Secondly, let's not get too DR-happy either. DR is the kind of things that is underwhelming unless it is overpowered. I would sy there is a middle zone where we are really content of the amount of DR our character has but it's not overpowered.


Bunch of other DR-related suggestions.
See previous comment regarding DR.


Passive Shield Blocking
I don't think the problem with S&B is mostly survival-related more than DPS-relate.

Being survivable might be cool, but not as much if it takes you twice as long to kill the mob. A proper balance as to be found. IMO.

Aesop
11-13-2008, 07:29 PM
I have a few reserves on that.
First of all, +8 Seeker might be a lot. How about +1 to damage on a crit and +2 to confirmation per swing? Secondly, I'd make it require Power Critical. Might make that feat useful at least. Finally, I would open it to everyone but would make it cheaper for fighters.

I'd say an enhancement shouln't be required to make a Feat useful ... perhaps make the Feat half Seeker and then use the Enhancements to improve it?


I will certainly agree to that one. Same for virtuoso which is currently simply a joke.

Yeah some lovin is needed



I would simply make of Bow Strength a normal feat.


I'm really against the idea of adding a made up Feat that shouldn't be necessary based on the rules to counter a House Rule... I think Feat are limited and adding the ability to an existing feat would not only encourage new Build ideas but also would make a Feat that is seen as relatively useless a little better.


It would fit the pattern that most ranger class abilities are general feats anyway.

Patterns aside ... see above comment



I like this version better as it gets rid of SM and ISM at the same time.

Yeah me too

Personally, I would do it differently as described here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1927685&postcount=43).

You could however add a +1-2 AC bonus to the Armor Mastery/Armor Optimization feat that was added.


Two comments. First, it's pretty lame. Secondly, let's not get too DR-happy either. DR is the kind of things that is underwhelming unless it is overpowered. I would sy there is a middle zone where we are really content of the amount of DR our character has but it's not overpowered.

Yeah that's the one that is almost straight out of the book... the next one I jazzed up alittle... also read later in the Thread for a different idea on how to apply it



I don't think the problem with S&B is mostly survival-related more than DPS-relate.


Actually based on TWF having the ability to have a higher AC than S&B as well as having Evasion and other mitigation ability; I think alternate survivability needs to be addressed as much as DPS. That's why I went there first.

Being survivable might be cool, but not as much if it takes you twice as long to kill the mob. A proper balance as to be found. IMO.


Also look later in the thread for another idea on modifying Improved Shield Bash



In making the suggestions I did I didn't want to stretch the roles too too far. Hence why I focused S&B heavily on Defense with Alternate DPS ideas as well... though a later post does add a further way to increase DPS of S&B... though still not nearly enough to be truly competative with TWF or even THF. Though it would help... I think


Please see post 11 12 13 and 16 for further ideas

Aesop

Invalid_50
11-13-2008, 07:50 PM
Better crit range was all repeaters ever had going for them in pnp. They currently have both speed (240 attacks per 2 min to bows 106 non manyshot or 159 manyshot) and that critical range going for them. They were much slower in pnp due to taking some thing like a move action to reload even with all applicable feats.

The lack of bow str is an issue but crossbows have never been able to have additional str added to them. I would go the way of the named weapon from the desert which simply gives a + to hit and damage.

With any ranged weapon that allows for ammunition to be used, throwing weapons get the shaft here, you should find it very easy to bypass DR as you can mix effects from the weapon itself and the ammuntion you carry. For the DQ use a holy or pure good repeater with cold iron bolts. Harry, holy or pure good repeater and silver bolts. Orthons and bearded devils, silver bolts on normal and holy or pure good repeater and silver bolts for everything else. The only thing that ammunition based ranged combat can't deal with would be mithral type, unless you use a transmuter, and barbarian DR. At that point its less of an issue because the better crit range will help boost damage.

Aesop's basic changes would move bows (I'm pretty sure Aesop isn't talking about crossbows at all for these changes) to 60 attacks per min 120 per 2 min base, 70 attacks per min 140 per 2 min with rapid shot, 80 attacks per min 160 per 2 min with improved rapid shot, and 40 manyshot volleys per min (1.5 seconds between shots, similar to ranged combats shots around BAB 6) at -8 to hit for 160 attacks per min 320 attacks per 2 min.

The -8 to the to-hit is pretty devistating when you factor in an additional -4 for moving and shooting, unless you have SOTR...which I am one of the few rangers who actually have this, for a total of -12 to-hit. GH gives +4 and a good bard song will get rid of the -8 (I think) which leaves the ranged combat user at base dex + BAB for their to-hit. They won't be able to put as many points into str to help bow str as current ranged combat users with 1 level of ranger can.

With all that factored in I think repeaters will still be an attractive option due to better critical range and good rate of fire.


Thanks for the reply Turial.

While I understand thats all repeaters had in PnP, this game is far from PnP in terms of monster hit points. On paper I tend to agree with you that the negatives to hit would keep repeaters attractive. In practice however I think they would fall to unappealing. An easy fix would be to increase the amount of bolts fired before reload to say 4 bolts at bab 6, 5 bolts at bab 12, and 6 bolts at bab 18? what do you think of that?

Arkat
11-13-2008, 08:10 PM
An easy fix would be to increase the amount of bolts fired before reload to say 4 bolts at bab 6, 5 bolts at bab 12, and 6 bolts at bab 18? what do you think of that?


If I'm not mistaken, the clips for repeaters in PnP hold five bolts. Therefore, perhaps four shots at BAB 8 and five shots at BAB 16 would make more sense.

Borror0
11-13-2008, 08:36 PM
I'd say an enhancement shouln't be required to make a Feat useful ... perhaps make the Feat half Seeker and then use the Enhancements to improve it?
Very good suggestion. It would also follow the same pattern for the enhancement.


Actually based on TWF having the ability to have a higher AC than S&B as well as having Evasion and other mitigation ability; I think alternate survivability needs to be addressed as much as DPS. That's why I went there first.
Nope. TWF AC needs to be nerfed. Period.

If we have to come up with ridiculous and overly complicated suggestion to solve a problem, the conclusion we have to draw is that a nerf is he best option.

To represent that with an image, picture a balance.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:iPMLtTtRkR8oCM:http://www.retrouversonnord.be/fichiers_liens/balance3.jpgf

Now, when the left side is equal to the right side, there is balance. Everyone is happy. The situation a few modules ago was leaning toward TWF, but a few bonuses to S&B would have brang the two together. However, Module 6 & 7 totally screwed any possibility of balance. To represent that with an image, Turbine added an elephant to the balance.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:bvWkPcgwhpSFbM:http://www.simpsoncrazy.com/gallery/images/PinkElephant.gif

In other words, there is clearly no balance between the two. Quite honestly, anyone arguing that S&B and TWF are balanced is either incredibly misinformed or has weird priorities. What you are trying to do is to fix it by adding Lego block on balance in order to restore balance.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:xXuf1EWM68H14M:http://www.mmocrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/lego.jpg

But, there is a limit to how many Lego blocks you can make fit on the balance. Back to DDO, that means time available for developers to address the problem, how powerful should gear/feats/enhancements be, the number of feat/spells/APs/skill points a character have and probably a few other constraints.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:6RPMxx_qu76AgM:http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2008/05/100-foot-lego-tower.jpg

So, wouldn't the easiest solution be to remove the elephant?!

Please see post 11 12 13 and 16 for further ideas
I will.

Aesop
11-13-2008, 09:34 PM
So, wouldn't the easiest solution be to remove the elephant?!


You are a bloody weirdo... think that's why I like you


Only problem is that you will be trying to lift the Elephant with a bunch of whiny gamers that don't want their characters nerfed.

Dex based Avoidance/Evasion should be a valid and viable defensive possibility. Does this get twitchy with the stack stacks of stacking... absolutely, but it does add some interesting possibilities...

not saying I disagree... but I'm not saying I agree either... at least not with any of the suggested nerfs I've seen thus far.

The issue to me is that S&B need a defensive ability that TWF won't be as good at. and S&B needs a way to come to a relative equal footing AC wise with the UBER AC TWF

Now this isn't really PnP at this point.... but then again in PnP non Casters are nigh irrelevant at high levels... so the question becomes how to rectify that. S&B need a source of Damage Mitigation ... this is why I lean towards the Passive Shield Blocking and the other implements I suggested.

DPS wise S&B and THF need a kicker something to bring them up to the TWF mad skills... not necessarily overcome them but to at least be on the same playing field.

This is something I really haven't explored. I am trying to stay in theme for any suggestions so I'm not really looking at suggesting things that would be off.


aside: Hey I just thought of something ...
Bucklers are useless currently. What if they coded Bucklers to fit into the off hand slot regarless of if a Two Handed weapon was there. Ie: aslong as a single weapon isn'tthere a buckler would still go there... I'm not sure I'm explaining that well... but yeah ....



back to what I was saying before. I added the suggestion about Improved Shield Bash to make it so that when a S&B fighter kicks off his Blocking he can still do damage and with the other design idea of the Passive Blocking this could be significant ... or at least a slight start.

Other than that I haven't had any major break throughs in my much frazzled and weary head... what do you have?

Aesop

Borror0
11-13-2008, 09:40 PM
Only problem is that you will be trying to lift the Elephant with a bunch of whiny gamers that don't want their characters nerfed.
What about we just throw the elephant on the whiners? That would shut them up.

Seriously. They will get nerfed one way or the other. Either by a classic nerf or a proxy-nerf. If they just can't stand reality, well let them whine.

Aesop
11-13-2008, 09:42 PM
Thanks for the reply Turial.

While I understand thats all repeaters had in PnP, this game is far from PnP in terms of monster hit points. On paper I tend to agree with you that the negatives to hit would keep repeaters attractive. In practice however I think they would fall to unappealing. An easy fix would be to increase the amount of bolts fired before reload to say 4 bolts at bab 6, 5 bolts at bab 12, and 6 bolts at bab 18? what do you think of that?

Honestly I think x-bows in general need a slightly faster Reload time

I think that would be a help.


Then again I also think that BAB 15 slowing your Rate of Attack down is silly as well and think they may need to add a Hook on the Final Attack at BAB15 this would keep melee from being overwhelmed by the new and improved Archer and X-Bow men

Aesop

Aesop
11-13-2008, 09:48 PM
What about we just throw the elephant on the whiners? That would shut them up.

Seriously. They will get nerfed one way or the other. Either by a classic nerf or a proxy-nerf. If they just can't stand reality, well let them whine.



I think that it would hurt the game if we ticked off such a large number of players. If you can come up with an innocuous nerf that they wouldn't even notice sure... but otherwise I would perfer not goin down that path... I see only darkness there

I really don't have too much of a problem with TWF having a great AC its that S&B can't get an AC as high that bothers me.

I dunno. I understand why nerfs are sometimes a better option... but I KNOW that at this stage of the game it is an option that is better left hidden behind a curtain

Aesop

Borror0
11-14-2008, 12:21 AM
I think that it would hurt the game if we ticked off such a large number of players.
A lot will complaint, very little will leave.

If they do complaint, just tell them that either way Turbine would have nerfed them. It's a matter of whether they prefer them do an hour of their time or days to do it.

I really don't have too much of a problem with TWF having a great AC its that S&B can't get an AC as high that bothers me.
Oh, I don't have a problem with TWF getting decent AC. The problem is that it can get higher AC than S&B.

eonfreon
11-14-2008, 02:40 AM
Well, I'm still waiting for a suggested nerf to TWF AC that makes sense.
As an example, I have a Paladin with a 28 Dex and Evasion.
So with the vanilla + 5 Mithral Breastplate he has 10 Armor + 5 Max Dex = 15.
With a Robe and +8 Ac Bracers he has 8 Armor + 9 Dex = 17.
If you figure he can use the Chaos Guards in place of the Armored Bracers while armored up then he has + 2 with Mithral Breastplate = 17 as well.
So in that way alone, with everything else being equal, he would prefer the robes or monk clothing, because at the very least he would have no penalty to his abilities, if nothing else.

So I am to understand that the icy raiment's +4 Dodge Bonus is the main culprit.
Plus any Wisdom Bonus granted by a Monk Splash.

Now if he had been built with even higher Dex at the expense of other stats (or had started with Tomes) then it would be even less of a question of what to wear, even without the + 4 Dodge Bonus from the Icy Raiments that an Armored Character cannot get.

To me a nerf of TWF AC might make sense from a "balance" issue, but little else, because armor has not been about avoiding blows, but rather absorbing blows.

Yes, I know that "AC" is a loose term, and that in D&D terms it encompasses more than avoidance of an attack, and that it, along with "Hit Points", is an attempt to represent an abstract concept of exchanging blows, avoiding blows, and taking blows.

But, within the framework of the rules, it has long been accepted that a lithe, fast fighter can avoid more attacks than a slow, armored fighter.
The difference, to me, has been that while an unarmored fighter may avoid more blows, an armored fighter should be able to absorb more attacks and take less damage from the blows he does receive.

That is why Feats and Enhancements to increase DR and even AC for S&B makes sense to me, rather than to nerf TWF AC in some way.

I can accept that the 3 Feats for TWF increase DPS only, but TWF does nothing to increase AC on it's own, except for Tempest Rangers that gain a + 2 to AC while TWFing (and enjoy the benefit of a bug that applies it while using a shield as well), other than to take the TWF Defense Feat for +1 to AC while TWFing.

Yes, Monk Wisdom to AC was unexpected, but something was needed in the rule-set to offset their traditionally lower dps.
The "Tempest Monk" is a Power Gamer creation and is unbalanced.
Is that what needs to be changed?
Without the Monk Wisdom AC my Paladin would still have a higher AC due to his Dex, than a S&B with little Dex standing toe to toe with an enemy.

So to me, Feats that increase Armor's DR, while less "fun" for some I suppose, makes more sense than some sort of decrease in AC for TWF, to arbitrarily bring them below S&B.

So to summarize:
I am all for adding more Feats to add more choices on how to improve any and all Fighting Styles.
Until I see a concrete suggestion on what exactly needs to be nerfed and in what way, I am opposed to an arbitrary lowering of TWFing AC, just because a "S&B should have higher AC".
Says who?

Cowdenicus
11-14-2008, 07:44 AM
What The?....When did you get back..... What Guild ya in Now man?

I am still in TIP, have been back for about two weeks, havent played much though cause I think Ghallanda died.....

Aesop
11-14-2008, 07:55 AM
Thanks for the reply Turial.

While I understand thats all repeaters had in PnP, this game is far from PnP in terms of monster hit points. On paper I tend to agree with you that the negatives to hit would keep repeaters attractive. In practice however I think they would fall to unappealing. An easy fix would be to increase the amount of bolts fired before reload to say 4 bolts at bab 6, 5 bolts at bab 12, and 6 bolts at bab 18? what do you think of that?

I got one for ya Gorath

Straight out of the Players Handbook 2

Crossbow Sniper
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus in the perfered x-bow
Benefit: Add half your Dexterity Bonus to damage with a the x-bow. If you have Sneak Attack double the range at which you can sneak attack with the x-bow.

how's that. It is another Feat but it is a pretty nice Feat over all.

Also out of the Player Handook 2

Telling Blow
Prerequisite: Sneak Attack
Benefit: on a Critical hit you apply Sneak Attack Damage

I love rogues :D

Aesop

Aesop
11-14-2008, 07:57 AM
I am still in TIP, have been back for about two weeks, havent played much though cause I think Ghallanda died.....

Make it known that you are back and maybe someone will apply the paddles and try to shock it back to life :D

missed ya Cow glad you're back... wish it was on a slightly more exciting Mod... Next one should be good (I hope)

Aesop

Turial
11-14-2008, 09:14 AM
Thanks for the reply Turial.

While I understand thats all repeaters had in PnP, this game is far from PnP in terms of monster hit points. On paper I tend to agree with you that the negatives to hit would keep repeaters attractive. In practice however I think they would fall to unappealing. An easy fix would be to increase the amount of bolts fired before reload to say 4 bolts at bab 6, 5 bolts at bab 12, and 6 bolts at bab 18? what do you think of that?

In beta repeaters and bows had the same rate of fire. Most of the powergamer types were using repeaters over bows. It was fairly well balanced and came down to a choice of style (bows) vs crit range (repeaters) for many players.

If you wanted to alter the clip for repeaters then you would go 2 at BAB 1, 3 at BAB 5, 4 at BAB 10, and 5 at BAB 15. Or some variation but I wouldn't go above pnp rules seeing as ROA is already well past normalacy.

Turial
11-14-2008, 09:21 AM
Honestly I think x-bows in general need a slightly faster Reload time

I think that would be a help.


Then again I also think that BAB 15 slowing your Rate of Attack down is silly as well and think they may need to add a Hook on the Final Attack at BAB15 this would keep melee from being overwhelmed by the new and improved Archer and X-Bow men

Aesop

Crossbow ROA hasn't stopped increasing yet.

It would be good to standardize the one-handed and two-hand melee ROA to be more even and still increasing as it would define the roles a bit better. Two weapon ROA is fine because it is 2x one-handed melee like it should be.

Aesop
11-14-2008, 04:29 PM
SWEET
Why’d you run away?
Don’t you like my… style?

Why don’t you come and play?
I guarantee a great big smile.

I come from the imagination
And I’m here strictly by your invocation.
So what do you say—
Why don’t we dance a while?
I’m the how to swing.
I’m the twist and shout.
When you gotta sing,
When you gotta let it out.
You call me and I come a-runnin’.
I turn the music on, I bring the fun in.
Now we’re partyin’, that’s what it’s all about.

’Cause I know what you feel, girl.
I know just what you feel, girl.
DAWN
So you’re like a good demon? Bringing the fun in?
SWEET
All these melodies, they go on too long.
Then that energy starts to come on way too strong.
All those hearts lay open— that must sting.
Plus some customers just start combusting.
That’s the penalty when life is but a song.
You brought me down into this town
So when we blow this scene,
Back we will go to my kingdom below
And you will be my queen.

’Cause I know what you feel, girl.
DAWN
No, you see, you and me
Wouldn’t be very regal.
SWEET
I’ll make it real, girl.
DAWN
What I mean, I’m fifteen
So this queen thing’s illegal.
SWEET
I can bring whole cities to ruin
And still have time to get a soft-shoe in.
DAWN
Well, that’s great but I’m late
And I’d hate to delay her.
SWEET
Something’s cooking, I’m at the griddle.
I bought Nero his very first fiddle.
DAWN
She’ll get ****ed if I’m missed,
See my sister’s the Slayer.
SWEET
The Slayer?
DAWN
Uh-huh.
SWEET
Find her. Tell her… tell her anything. Just get her here. I
want to see the Slayer burn.
SWEET
Now we’re partyin’.
That’s what it’s all about.

Aesop
11-15-2008, 01:31 PM
What is regular x-bow RoA?

X-Bow should be the slowest, Repeaters Should be as Fast as Bows (though they are actaully a lot faster in DDO... I'm not against them being a bit faster but I think their current ratio is way off)


Thought:

TWF is the strongest style currently. The problem is that they have the best potential of all worlds with DPS, AC, and Mitigation.

S&B and THF need help in all three areas; its not that they need to equal TWF in all areas but they should be competative.

A lot of the ideas I've put together over this thread have been aimed at improving S&B in those three areas (though my DPS ideas are limited and based around the AC and Mitigation ideas)

1. Improved ritual and Feat effect for Heavier Armor and Shields.
a: Armor and Shield Alchemical Rituals giving an extra +1 for Medium and Heavy Armor and Heavy and Tower Shields. This would help shrink the 15 points of top end useable AC that separate the S&B and TWF styles.
b: The Shield Specialization Feat replaces the Shield Mastery Line and gives a +1 to a Bucklers or a Light Shield's shield AC and a +2 to Heavy and Tower Shield as well as improving the Blocking DR while using a Shield.

2.Improving mitiagtion through use of a Passive Blocking mechanic.
a: Progressive Passive bonuses based on BAB combined with bonuses from Feat, and the improving bonuses based on types of Shields that give a percent chance to absorb the damage taken with the character's Blocking DR.
b:A sequence as follows may be a good way to implement.
1 Weapon no Shield: 1%
Two Weapon no TWD: 2%
Buckler: 3%
Light Shield:5%
Heavy Shield: 10%
Tower Shield: 15%

Active Shield Defense: +5%

TWD line: +2% each
THF line: +1% each

BAB: +.5% each

Light Armor +1%
Medium Armor +3%
Heavy Armor +5%

So a Level 20 Fighter with the Active Shield Defense a tower shield and Adamantine Full Plate would have a 35% chance to Block a shot without actively blocking

A Level 19/1 Ranger Monk wearing Robes with the full TWD line would have 17.5% chance to block a shot

a 20 Barbarian with full THF line wearing a Breastplate would have 17% chance to block a shot


3. Improving S&B damage (though only by a small amount) by adding passive Shield Bash attacks.
a:One perhaps two passive Shield Bashing Attacks based on attack sequeance. Perhaps on the second and fourth or fifth attack in a sequence have a shield bash hook.
b: The Feat Improved Shield Bash could have a new effect built in that when a character Blocks an attack the amount of damage blocked is reflected back at the attacker.




Something I was thinking about for THF was an improvement based on the THF line. Progressive improvement to the Strength application. Base is Strength x 1.5; with the first THF Feat this would improve to x1.6, ITHF would improve to x1.8 and GTHF to x2. This would be in addition to the other benefits of the THF line (including the improvement to Passive Blocking and Improved Glancing Blows)



well that's some of this in a nut shell... the rest of the nuts are still missing I think

Aesop

nbhs275
11-15-2008, 01:59 PM
I wish they would bring back the additional damage on glancing blows. It was an actual arguement for taking the THF feats when you could get your holy/elemental/wounding damage on your glancing blows and actually cause a signifigant amount of usefull damage to the enemies around your main target, instead of just a flimsy 10-20 physical damage that in no way compares to the benefits of TWF.

Aesop
11-15-2008, 02:58 PM
I wish they would bring back the additional damage on glancing blows. It was an actual arguement for taking the THF feats when you could get your holy/elemental/wounding damage on your glancing blows and actually cause a signifigant amount of usefull damage to the enemies around your main target, instead of just a flimsy 10-20 physical damage that in no way compares to the benefits of TWF.


Perhaps have it apply the Weapon Effects only on Criticals would be an acceptable compromise between the two. I mean if the Glancing Blow doesn't so much glance as tear through they should apply the entirety of the possible effects.

Aesop

Xyfiel
11-15-2008, 08:43 PM
You know a lot of people are moaning about twf having the best of all worlds, this is only partially right. What part of "twf" gives more ac then any other style?
Before you say Tempest, that is bugged and works with shields. It is also a class specialty. So if you disagree with Tempest, don't blame it on TWF.

TWF is no better then using one weapon and nothing off hand unless taking a feat. Dont think anyone is moaning about twd.

TWF is no better then using a S&S unless you have high wisdom and take a level of monk. What part of this has anything to do with TWF? Anyone could still get this bonus by going THF or one with nothing off hand. My point here is it is not isolated to twf, and the continued mixing of the two will get a knee jerk reaction that no one wants.

We know that due to the inflation of ability scores characters get higher dex/wis modifiers while armor bonus has been the same since level 8. Icy Rainments give a better AC bump then wearing armor. These 2 issues are what should be analyzed, not a feat chain that has nothing to do with it. It just happens that twf goes with these 2 issues. For the people who moan about splashing Monk for ac bonus, I don't remember anyone posting about how you should only get divine grace bonus based on paladin level, a similiar ability.

Aesop, I love your ideas. Sorry for wanting to vent a bit in your thread.

Borror0
11-15-2008, 09:20 PM
What part of "twf" gives more ac then any other style?

From the way you approach, nothing. And you are right.

The TWF line isn't overpowered. Well,, that is a lie actually. It deals way more damage than it should to be honest. S&B is wayyy behind THF. THF itself is also behind TWF in DPS. More than it should be. As it wasn't enough, TWF has good synergy with the abilities that you recognize should be analyzed and modified.

Not that this requires a nerf. But the DPS of THF and S&B should be improved and unarmored AC should be nerfed as this is what helps to overpower TWF.

You are right to say it is not one thing but rather an addition of factors.

sephiroth1084
11-17-2008, 02:39 AM
How about making archery not break stealth, the same way sneak attacking in melee doesn't. Kinda frustrating to shoot something from across a large room once, and have every enemy there know exactly where I am. Or, for instance, when attempting to use some of the programmed tactics in Stealthy Repossession, such as firing an arrow at the wall to draw the attention of wandering sentinels...instead drawing it to me because I am no longer stealthed.

Honestly, it makes a heck of a lot more sense to be able to shoot snipe something and remain hidden than it does to hit something in the back (or front) and not have it know where you are.

Aesop
11-19-2008, 04:17 PM
I touch the fire, and it freezes me
I look into it, and it's black
Why can't I feel?
My skin should crack and peel
I want the fire back
Now, through the smoke, she calls to me
To make my way across the flame
To save the day
Or maybe melt away
I guess it's all the same

So I will
Walk through the fire
'Cause where else can I turn?
I will
Walk through the fire
And let it...

The torch I bear is scorching me
Buffy’s laughing, I've no doubt
I hope she fries,
I'm free if that ***** dies
I better help her out
'Cause she is
Drawn to the fire
Some people...
She will never learn
Both: And she will
Walk through the fire
and let it...

Will this do a thing to change her?
Am I leaving dawn in danger?
Is my slayer too far gone to care?
What if Buffy can't defeat it?
Beady eyes is right, we're needed
Or we could just sit around and glare
All: We'll
See it through
It's what we're
Always here to do
so we will
Walk through the fire

So one by one, they turn from me
I guess my friends can't face the cold
What can't we face?
But why I froze,
Not one among them knows
And never can be told

She came from the grave much graver
One by one, they come to me
First, he’ll kill her, then I’ll save her
Everything is turning out so dark
Going through the motions
No, I’ll save her, then I’ll kill her
I think this line is mostly filler
What's it going to take to strike a spark?
It's what they have inside
She will come
These endless days
Are finally ending in a blaze
All: And we are
Caught in the fire
The point of no return
So we will
Walk through the fire
And let it burn
Let it burn
Let it burn
And let it burn!

Aesop
11-19-2008, 04:17 PM
Aesop, I love your ideas. Sorry for wanting to vent a bit in your thread.

np vent away

I like discussion

Aesop

SableShadow
11-19-2008, 04:26 PM
Best.
Episode.
Evah!


Good DDO ideas, too. :D

Aesop
11-19-2008, 04:29 PM
Best.
Episode.
Evah!


Good DDO ideas, too. :D

Thanks :)

Turial
11-19-2008, 05:04 PM
Aesop what do you think about simply allowing for one to TWF with a shield as an off-hand weapon?

This would involve a toggle to say ON - attack with shield, OFF - dont attack with shield.

Aesop
11-19-2008, 10:09 PM
Aesop what do you think about simply allowing for one to TWF with a shield as an off-hand weapon?

This would involve a toggle to say ON - attack with shield, OFF - dont attack with shield.

It's doable ... I'm not a big fan of it honestly and I think its mostly do to a personal preference thingy.

Actually a couple of issues with it

1. Its just helping TWF out even more only this time its the Strength TWF.

2. It won't really help that much due to the shield selection anyway. Most Shields don't bypass DR and the extra damage won't be significant.

3. It will at that point actually cost more Feat-wise to be an effective Shield Fighter than it does to be an effective TWF

Aesop



edit: Though I think the Passive Shield Bash and the Improved Shield Bash bits might mimic this effect that you are suggesting in a reasonable fashion

Aesop
11-23-2008, 11:04 PM
1. Allow Bucklers to fit into the off hand slot even though the Primary hand slot is occupied by a Two Handed Weapon. Thus allowing THF to use Bucklers returning to them a valuable equipment slot and giving them better AC and effect options. As a trade off have this apply a penalty to hit in the same way a Tower Shield does.

2. Impliment a Passive Blocking mechanic. Have a successful activation of this passive mechanic apply the characters Blcoking DR to the attack. Have the activation based on Base Attack Bonus, Feat and Equipment in a way similar to the following:


1.Improving mitiagtion through use of a Passive Blocking mechanic.
a: Progressive Passive bonuses based on BAB combined with bonuses from Feat, and the improving bonuses based on types of Shields that give a percent chance to absorb the damage taken with the character's Blocking DR.
b:A sequence as follows may be a good way to implement.
1 Weapon no Shield: 1%
Two Weapon no TWD: 2%
Buckler: 3%
Light Shield:5%
Heavy Shield: 10%
Tower Shield: 15%

Active Shield Defense: +5%

TWD line: +2% each
THF line: +1% each

BAB: +.5% each

Light Armor +1%
Medium Armor +3%
Heavy Armor +5%

examples:
So a Level 20 Fighter with the Active Shield Defense a tower shield and Adamantine Full Plate would have a 35% chance to Block a shot without actively blocking

A Level 19/1 Ranger Monk wearing Robes with the full TWD line would have 17.5% chance to block a shot

a 20 Barbarian with full THF line wearing a Breastplate would have 17% chance to block a shot
example to include THF with the use of Bucklers:
a 20 Barbarian with full THF line wearing a Breastplate and a buckler with the Active Shield Defence Feat would have 21% chance to block a shot



3. Implement Passive Shield Bash "Hooks". This will marginally improve Sword and Shield fighting DPS. Also improve the Improved Shield Bash Feat to include applying reciprocal damage equal to but not exceeeding damage blocked by Blocking DR. These two suggestions would help shrink the DPS disparity a little.


4. Improve Bow RoA. Change Many Shot to a Stance with associated penalties. Apply Bow Strength to the Point Blank Shot Feat to allow other builds besides the Ranger to benefit leave Ranger Bow Strength as is.




I know I ask for a lot but I truly believe that this will help the games balance and playability. I don't normally suggest going outside the Source Systems basic guidelines but something has to give and I'd rather bend the system to suit our needs than have the system break us .


Aesop

Xyfiel
11-23-2008, 11:36 PM
Mirror Image
Better Ranged
Arcane Trickster prc

Ok the last one is very optimistic

Aesop
11-24-2008, 06:01 AM
Mirror Image
Better Ranged
Arcane Trickster prc

Ok the last one is very optimistic

How about a PrE version?

wanna know my #5

5. Restructure the PrEs to be Feat Feature and Skill Rank based not class and enhancements based. Thus anyone with Dodge Mobility Spring Attack TWF and ITWF can pick up Tempest.

Kistilan
11-24-2008, 12:32 PM
How about a PrE version?

wanna know my #5

5. Restructure the PrEs to be Feat Feature and Skill Rank based not class and enhancements based. Thus anyone with Dodge Mobility Spring Attack TWF and ITWF can pick up Tempest.

/adores Aesop <3

Totally totally totally... awesome.

Aesop
11-24-2008, 03:46 PM
/adores Aesop <3

Totally totally totally... awesome.

Thank you Kist

:)

Aesop

Aesop
11-25-2008, 04:11 PM
Hey what about this for a Feat


Flying Kick: Monk 1 and Power Attack
Benefit: +1d12 extra damage ona confirmed Critical hit with a Ki Weapon.


Monks don't crit too often and could use a little extra damage and I was looking at the Complete Warrior and thought that an adaptation like this may be a neat way to help the Bruce Wannabees out a little

Aesop

Borror0
11-25-2008, 04:28 PM
Flying Kick: Monk 1 and Power Attack
Benefit: +1d12 extra damage ona confirmed Critical hit with a Ki Weapon.

So... +0.65 per swing?

Aesop
11-25-2008, 04:34 PM
So... +0.65 per swing?

yeah probably too low huh?

It was a spur of the moment thing.

maybe something along those lines though

Aesop

Borror0
11-25-2008, 04:57 PM
maybe something along those lines though
It's not a bad thing, but not worth a feat really.

Aesop
11-25-2008, 04:58 PM
It's not a bad thing, but not worth a feat really.

What about a scaled enhancement line?

d8
2d8
3d8

Aesop

Borror0
11-25-2008, 05:12 PM
What about a scaled enhancement line?
Yeah, well, wasting 6 APs for 1.35 damage per swing is closer to racial weapon enhancement...

Aesop
11-25-2008, 10:48 PM
Combat Awareness
Requires BAB+12 Combat Focus and Blind Fighting
Gain Knowledge of the Health of Adjacent Creatures (3+ Combat Form Feat grant Blindsight 5')
I don’t know… Someone else think of something for this one


Ok so I was thinking that this could be added to the Passive Blocking category... the only danger with this is get the numbers too high... but I think we're still safe



Combat Awareness
Requires BAB+12 Combat Focus
Benefit: Improves a Character's chance to passively Block an attack by 3%. If the Character has Three Combat Form Feat the benefit increases to 5%


This may be a little underwhelming but I think it would be appropriate to the concept.


Aesop

Aesop
11-25-2008, 11:09 PM
MORE FEAT ARE NEEDED: Here are just a very few ideas

Combat Form Feat : The First is Focus and it is a Prereq for all the rest. This would essentially be like Manyshot is set up now where you'd have 1-1.5 min of Combat Focus and then a 2-3 min cooldown. As you buy up the Feat all bought become part of the Focus...

Combat Focus
Requires a Wisdom score of 13
This Feat grants a limited duration (10 rounds +1/Combat Form Feat) Combat Focus. This Grants a +2 to Will Saves. If you have 3 or more Combat Form Feat the bonus increases to 4. Combat Focus is also the Prerequisite for other Combat Form Feats. Those Feat improve the benefits of the Combat Focus.

Combat Stability
Requires BAB+3 Combat Focus
Grants a +4 to resist Bull Rush Trip etc (Increase to +8 with 3+ Combat Form Feat)

Combat Defense
Requires BAB +6 Dodge and Combat Focus
Allows you to Switch your Dodge Target as an Immediate action (increase Dodge bonus by +1 with 3+ Combat Form Feats)
Modify for DDO to Grant an Additional +1 Dodge AC and +2 with 3+ Combat Form Feat

Combat Vigor
Requires BAB +9 Combat Focus
Gain Fast Healing 2 while Focused (4 with 3+ Combat Form Feat)

Combat Awareness
Requires BAB+12 Combat Focus
Benefit: Improves a Character's chance to passively Block an attack by 3%. If the Character has Three Combat Form Feat the benefit increases to 5%

Combat Strike
Requires BAB +15 Combat Focus 2 other Combat Form Feat
Grants the ability to expend your Focus to gain a bonus to attack and damage = to number of Combat Form Feats for the current turn
Modify to just grant a Bonus to Damage (maybe +2) while in Combat Focus



Ranged Combat Suggestions

Ranged Combat Rebalancing: Ranged Combat feels like an after thought that is the bastard stepchild of an abusive alcoholic schizophrenic. It still needs a little love but it doesn't seem to get any at home. So put the stepparent on prozac and lets get by this.

a. RoF: I've posted this a number of times but here it goes again. The RoF of Ranged attacks is far too low relative to Melee. I understand that Melee actually has to be up close and personal with the baduns so risk taking more damage vrs ranged who is well... ranging. However that is a benefit of Ranged combat. The benefits of Melee vary a little. Sword and Shield has better blocking DR when they use it and are great for Intimitank play. They also typically have heavier armor options and Shields can carry other useful effect on them like Deathblock or Resistances. Two Handed Fighters do Strength and 1 Half Damage and get glancing blows for a bunch more damage. Two Weapon Fighters are the Quisinarts of the DDO world and attack a huge number of times (though possibly not as many as they should). That said the following should be considered.

1. Change the base RoF of Ranged attacks to 60% that of Sword and Shield Melee(hence forth with regard to Ranged RoF referred to as Melee). (if melee swings 100 times in a minute then Archers and thrown weapons should fire off 60 shots without any modifiers)

2.Rapid Shot should increase the RoF to 75% that of Melee

3.The Feat Improved Rapid Shot should be implemented to give an additional 10% bringing Ranged to 85% the RoF of Melee

4. Manyshot should be changed to a Stance with the following conditions and modifiers.
4a. Many Shot cannot be used in conjunction with Rapid Shot or Improved Rapid Shot thus reducing the RoF back down to 60% Melee.
4b. Numbers of Arrows used should be selectable with limitations by BAB. 2 at BAB 6, 3 at BAB 11, and 4 at BAB 16.
4c. Each arrow should give a cumulative penalty. I suggest -2 to hit for the first additional arrow and -1 for each beyond that and a RoF penalty of -5% per additional arrow thus reducing the RoF of a Many Shot to 45% at BAB 16 with 4 Arrows flying and a -4 to hit penalty. (note: In PnP Many Shot is a Standard Action which means it can only be fired once per round and comes with a penalty of -8 for firing 4 arrows at the same time. While this (sorta) works in PnP in a Real Time MMO the penalty would be slightly out of balance with the rest of combat to have the RoF reduced to 20% melee)

b. Ammunition: Ranged needs a better selection of Ammunition.
1. Basic Elemental types should be made available to purchase. Flaming, Frost, Acid and Shock. Favor Rewards should be implemented to make available other ammunition types (Holy, Axiomatic, Burst effect, Cursespewing etc... almost any weapon effect can be placed on ammunition)

2. From the SRD
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. I would like this translated into all normal ammo being 10% returning and Masterwork and magic being 15%(or more) returning.

Range: Range and distance seem a bit off right now.

1. Please increase the Range increments. As it stands now, Point Blank Shot only kicks in at a range almost being able to swing a sword at the critter I'm attacking. 30 ft seems much closer to 10.

2. Also add in Range Increments. Even if it is only 5 of them with the ranges being touch, short, medium, long and extreme. Throwing a hammer from across the valley shouldn't hit as effectively as an Arrow from 10 ft. This brings me to the next part

3. Penalties. have penalties kick in beyond medium range. -2 for long range and -4 for extreme. let Point Blank range be within the Short Range category.

4. Implement Far Shot as a Feat. Have Far Shot increase the effective range of Point Blank Shot to Medium and decrease penalties by 2. (note let this also affect Sneak Attack range)

Bow Strength: I understand that when first starting it appeared that rangers needed a little love... and they might have. I also understand that in an environment where crafting was not existent that requiring Composite bows that match your characters strength could get problematic. However making Archery a Ranger only ability is a bad bad thing. If you needed to, just add Bow Strength to Point Blank Shot and give the Bow Strength to rangers anyway (since they bypass PBS and go straight on to Rapid Shot). Fighters and other range Centric characters shouldn't need to splash Ranger to make an archer.



Shield Combat Suggestions

Alchemical Rituals
Have the bonuses be based on Shield or Armor type. I'm for a +1 apply to Light Armor, Cloth Armor, Bucklers and Light Shields, and a +2 for Medium and Heavy Armor and Heavy and Tower Shields.

I also suggest a second tier of Alchemical Rituals that require a Shield Previously Enchanted by the first tier ritual that applies the same bonus and a Blocking DR or Deflection Bonus.

Example:
Alchemical Ritual of Blocking : Ingredients: Bound Alchemically Enhanced Shield, 25 Greater Earth Soul Stones.
Effect: Improves the Blocking DR of the Shield by 2 for Bucklers and Light Shields and by 4 for Heavy and Tower Shields

Additionally there is a Feat in the Players Handbook 2 called

Shield Specialization
We could have this Feat grants +1 AC when using Bucklers or Light Shields and a +2 to Heavy and Tower Shields. This Feat also increases the Maximum Dex Bonus of Tower Shields by 1 and increases the DR while blocking with a shield by 5.

I’d have this feat replace the Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery Feats.


Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
Grant DR 2/- with that type of Armor

kinda blah really... maybe the following

Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
This Feat Increases the Maximum Dexterity Bonus that may be applied to a given set of Armor by 1. However to keep with the original intent we could give Armors a Natural Blocking DR based on TYpe and have this Feat improve that by 2 as well.

Light Armor: 1
Medium Armor: 2
Heavy Armor: 3

and this Feat could improve that by 2 as well



Passive Shield Blocking
Turbine has added another aspect to Sword and Shield fighting; Blocking DR. Blocking DR is only useful if you completely sacrifice Damage. Sword and Shield Fighting already has the second lowest Damage of all the styles (Ranged being the lowest ... with the exception of 20 sec per 2+ min period of time) so the proposal is to make the Blocking DR do something that is useful outside of standing there and taking shots. Give shields a % chance to "Automatically" block a blow. Each hit taken has a percent chance of having the characters Blocking DR absorb part of the blow.

Example: Robot Chicken a Warforged Fighter has a Blocking DR of 30 and gets struck by his old friend Harry for 65 damage. However using that Tower Shield that he does he has a chance to catch that 65 damage on the shield and turn aside 30 of it and because it is a Tower Shield that he uses its a pretty good chance.


Give a Straight Base Chance Based on Shield Type.

1 Weapon no Shield: 1%
Two Weapon no TWD: 2%
Buckler: 3%
Light Shield:5%
Heavy Shield: 10%
Tower Shield: 15%

Now add in a Feat modified from the PLayers Handbook 2

Active Shield Defense
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the ability to make Attacks of Opportunity (AoO) while Fighting Defensively without Penalty

Well we don't have AoO in DDO so something different and I think this lends itself well to increase the Passive Shield Blocking with a Shield by 5%


Active Shield Defense: +5%

then modify the TWD Feat as follows


Two Weapon Defense and Two Weapon Blocking: I suggest we combine these into a single Feat.
Two Weapon Defense : Grant the Character a +1 Shield AC when fighting with Two Weapons and increases the Characters Blocking Damage Reduction by 2 points. It also increases the Characters Chance to Passively Block a Shot by 2%.


Improved Two Weapon Defense : Grant the Character a +2 Shield AC when fighting with Two Weapons and increases the Characters Blocking Damage Reduction by 4 points. Passive Blocking improves by 2% while Two Weapon Fighting.

Greater Two Weapon Defense : Grant the Character a +3 Shield AC when fighting with Two Weapons and increases the Characters Blocking Damage Reduction by 6 points. Passive Blocking improves by an additional 2% while Two Weapon Fighting.


TWD line: +2% each

Also change up the THF feats a little to give them a little more oomph

Two Handed Fighting: Improves the Damage of a Characters Glancing Blows. Increases the chance to Passively Block an attack by 1% and improves the effects of a Characters Strength from Strength times 1.5 to Str x 1.65.

Improved Two Handed Fighting:Improves the Damage of a Characters Glancing Blows. Increases the chance to Passively Block an attack by an additional 1% and improves the effects of a Characters Strength from Strength times 1.5 to Str x 1.8.

Greater Two Handed Fighting:Improves the Damage of a Characters Glancing Blows. Increases the chance to Passively Block an attack by an additional 1% and improves the effects of a Characters Strength from Strength times 1.5 to Str x 2.

THF line: +1% each

Additionally have the BAB of a character be a factor in the Passive Blocking. After all ones experience in combat would also improve your awareness and reflexes for parrying attacks

BAB: +.5% each

Also have Armor type factor in as well to complete an all around gathering of factors that will help combatants mitigate the damage

Light Armor +1%
Medium Armor +3%
Heavy Armor +5%


Short Form:


1. Improving mitigation through use of a Passive Blocking mechanic.
a: Progressive Passive bonuses based on BAB combined with bonuses from Feat, and the improving bonuses based on types of Shields that give a percent chance to absorb the damage taken with the character's Blocking DR.
b:A sequence as follows may be a good way to implement.
1 Weapon no Shield: 1%
Two Weapon no TWD: 2%
Buckler: 3%
Light Shield:5%
Heavy Shield: 10%
Tower Shield: 15%

Active Shield Defense: +5%
Combat Awareness: 3% (Increases to 5%)

TWD line: +2% each
THF line: +1% each

BAB: +.5% each

Light Armor +1%
Medium Armor +3%
Heavy Armor +5%

examples:
So a Level 20 Fighter with the Active Shield Defense a tower shield and Adamantine Full Plate would have a 35% chance to Block a shot without actively blocking. With Combat Awareness this improves to 40%.

A Level 19/1 Ranger Monk wearing Robes with the full TWD line would have 17.5% chance to block a shot. With Combat Awareness this improves to 22.5%.


a 20 Barbarian with full THF line wearing a Breastplate would have 17% chance to block a shot. With Combat Awareness this improves to 22%.



a 20 Barbarian with full THF line wearing a Breastplate and a buckler with the Active Shield Defense Feat would have 21% chance to block a shot. With Combat Awareness this improves to 26%.



Shield Bashing (or how to marginally improve S&B Damage):


a:One perhaps two passive Shield Bashing Attacks based on attack sequence. Perhaps on the second and fourth or fifth attack in a sequence have a shield bash hook.

b: The Feat Improved Shield Bash could have a new effect built in that when a character Blocks an attack the amount of damage blocked is reflected back at the attacker.


Two Handed Fighting Suggestion:

Allow Bucklers to fit into the offhand slot even though the Primary hand slot is occupied by a Two Handed Weapon, thus allowing THF to use Bucklers returning to them a valuable equipment slot and giving them better AC and effect options. To balance the new flexibility apply an attack penalty while using a buckler and a two handed weapon at the same time.

Kistilan
11-25-2008, 11:15 PM
Ok so I was thinking that this could be added to the Passive Blocking category... the only danger with this is get the numbers too high... but I think we're still safe



Combat Awareness
Requires BAB+12 Combat Focus
Benefit: Improves a Character's chance to passively Block an attack by 3%. If the Character has Three Combat Form Feat the benefit increases to 5%


This may be a little underwhelming but I think it would be appropriate to the concept.


Aesop

Add in the Blind Fighting Requirement or Agile Reposte Requirement, make a minimum dex requirement of 15/X (where Dex is X lower than 15 & adds +X to DC to succeed in physical evasion) and treat as an evasion for physical attacks where DC = CR MoB + X (Where X equals: Str Bonus? Dex Bonus? Or BaB? Also Fighter DC Enhancements if MoBs have these.) Treat as a miss chance for connect on a hit.

Borror0
11-26-2008, 01:35 AM
Aesop... what did change in the post up top versus the OP?

That is a lot to read and I'm lazy. :D

sephiroth1084
11-26-2008, 01:42 AM
What about converting the ranged feats back to their PnP counterparts almost exactly?

Turn Rapid Shot into a toggled ability that grants a significant increase to RoF (maybe 75% that of 1-handers), but imposes a -2 penalty.

Have Manyshot become a clicky with a cooldown of 3 to 6 seconds. When you click it, a list pops up giving you an option for 2, 3 or 4 arrows, which you can separate into 3 separate icons and place them all on your hotbar (think Resist Energy). Using this attack imposes a -4 penatly, and an additional -2 per arrow beyond 2 (-6 and -8). It would drop the RoF somewhat, but seems like it would be fairly balanced since character would be looking at as much as a -10 penalty to attack when using Rapid Shot and Manyshot together. The cooldown would simulate that it requires a standard action normally. Oh, and things like Sneak Attack and crits. would only apply to one of the 4 arrows.

Add Improved Rapid Shot to the game, and have it either eliminate the -2 penalty for Rapid Shot (as per PnP) OR increase the RoF a bit more (up to maybe 85% of 1-handers).

Add Greater Manyshot to the game, allowing for things like Sneak Attack and crits. to apply to each arrow fired.

The added penalties would also mean that Shot on the Run would be a valuable feat, since the -4 penalty while moving and attacking would be meaningful.

I like the idea of range increments. If this gets worked on, consider making Manyshot only work on targets within Point Blank Shot range.

Aesop
11-26-2008, 05:15 AM
Aesop... what did change in the post up top versus the OP?

That is a lot to read and I'm lazy. :D

ah....


None of the Ranged stuff changed

I stream lined the Shield Stuff to the current renditions (though I think I may have forgoten to update Armor Spec to the current thought)

I added the last bit about Bucklers and THF

I added a thought about a Feat suggestion from the Combat Form Feat list at the top

and I took out the very first section about Fighter Weapon Mastery because it was basically the same as Kensai


I think that's it

mostly its the Shield stuff that was updated

Aesop

Borror0
11-26-2008, 05:18 AM
I think that's it

mostly its the Shield stuff that was updated
Next time, how about just updating the OP and putting what you update also in a separate post.

It makes it easier to follow. Just a suggestion. :)

Aesop
11-26-2008, 05:21 AM
Add in the Blind Fighting Requirement or Agile Reposte Requirement, make a minimum dex requirement of 15/X (where Dex is X lower than 15 & adds +X to DC to succeed in physical evasion) and treat as an evasion for physical attacks where DC = CR MoB + X (Where X equals: Str Bonus? Dex Bonus? Or BaB? Also Fighter DC Enhancements if MoBs have these.) Treat as a miss chance for connect on a hit.



Actually there is a Feat from the Players Handbook II called Melee Evasion.. let me look it up...

hmmm... Requirements are CE and Dodge. Basically you roll an Attack Roll and if your attack roll beats their Attack roll ... they miss you. Only works once per round though. (also only works agaist your Dodge partner)

Aesop

Aesop
11-26-2008, 05:22 AM
Next time, how about just updating the OP and putting what you update also in a separate post.

It makes it easier to follow. Just a suggestion. :)

Bah ...easy...

heh you think when I'm thinking about this stuff I'm in a non sleep deprived place ;)


Aesop

Aesop
11-26-2008, 05:31 AM
What about converting the ranged feats back to their PnP counterparts almost exactly?

Turn Rapid Shot into a toggled ability that grants a significant increase to RoF (maybe 75% that of 1-handers), but imposes a -2 penalty.


I originally made this suggestion and people went a little nutty on me. That's why it changed to the format I have now, but I'm amiable to either


Have Manyshot become a clicky with a cooldown of 3 to 6 seconds. When you click it, a list pops up giving you an option for 2, 3 or 4 arrows, which you can separate into 3 separate icons and place them all on your hotbar (think Resist Energy). Using this attack imposes a -4 penatly, and an additional -2 per arrow beyond 2 (-6 and -8). It would drop the RoF somewhat, but seems like it would be fairly balanced since character would be looking at as much as a -10 penalty to attack when using Rapid Shot and Manyshot together. The cooldown would simulate that it requires a standard action normally. Oh, and things like Sneak Attack and crits. would only apply to one of the 4 arrows.


On the one hand I like it on the other I think people would cry about having what was their "high damage weapon" suddenly turned into a clicky. Its a pretty good way to go about it though


Add Improved Rapid Shot to the game, and have it either eliminate the -2 penalty for Rapid Shot (as per PnP) OR increase the RoF a bit more (up to maybe 85% of 1-handers).


I'd lean towards the Speed increase... expecially since the speed of Ranged would still be so much slower than melee


Add Greater Manyshot to the game, allowing for things like Sneak Attack and crits. to apply to each arrow fired.


The added penalties would also mean that Shot on the Run would be a valuable feat, since the -4 penalty while moving and attacking would be meaningful.

I like the idea of range increments. If this gets worked on, consider making Manyshot only work on targets within Point Blank Shot range.


I think that limiting Manyshot to short range would tick off a lot of people and may be a little difficult to code... due to people firing using the point method i






I like the suggestions

Aesop

sephiroth1084
11-26-2008, 02:39 PM
I think that, in practice, people would appreciate something akin to my suggested changes after a little while. Archers would be firing faster, and while they would not have such a high-DPS burst for 20 seconds, they would also not have to wait 2 minutes before doing so again. This would pull archery away from burst-DPS a little, and would increase overall DPS.

Going back and regarding your take on adding the penalty back into Manyshot, I don't think lessening it is the way to go. There are already so many ways to mitigate penalties to attacks that people frequently move and attack (without Spring Attack or Shot on the Run), and denounce such feats as being wasted space. And more, still, who go about swinging their oversized off-hand weapons sans-feat with impunity, because the penalty doesn't matter.

At early levels, yes, the penalties are more significant, but how to balance well an ability that changes so much from early to late game? It may just require players choosing to do without one or the other on occasion. Ooh! How about changing the progression of the penalty? It could be a -2 for one additional arrow, and then a -3 for each additional beyond 2, which would still put it at a -8 at level 15, but would make it easier to use at level 5.

Maybe have Improved Rapid Shot bring the % up to 90% of melee?

As for the range issue, yeah, that might be rough. It could be changed to instead grant a penalty to all shots beyond that range, but I added it as an afterthought and don't think that it is especially important.

Aesop
11-29-2008, 03:43 PM
I think that, in practice, people would appreciate something akin to my suggested changes after a little while. Archers would be firing faster, and while they would not have such a high-DPS burst for 20 seconds, they would also not have to wait 2 minutes before doing so again. This would pull archery away from burst-DPS a little, and would increase overall DPS.


I think that overall you are right. its just people have an aversion to clickies and seeing another added may make the excrement hit the rotory air moving device for a little while.



Going back and regarding your take on adding the penalty back into Manyshot, I don't think lessening it is the way to go. There are already so many ways to mitigate penalties to attacks that people frequently move and attack (without Spring Attack or Shot on the Run), and denounce such feats as being wasted space. And more, still, who go about swinging their oversized off-hand weapons sans-feat with impunity, because the penalty doesn't matter.


True. I was just trying to find a balance with the decreased Speed for firing more Arrows in a Stance set Many Shot format. So that the more arrows you shoot the bigger the penalty is but the penalty just to hit wouldn't matter near as much as a slight penalty to RoA. Hence the give and take.



Maybe have Improved Rapid Shot bring the % up to 90% of melee?


Maybe.
base RoA = 60% of Melee
Rapid Shot = +15%
Improved Rapid Shot =+15%
for a 90% total

or

Ranged RoA= 50%+.5% per BAB (so +10% at lvl 20)
Rapid Shot= +15%
Improved Rapid Shot= +15%

or maybe 20 and 10% respectively



Aesop

sephiroth1084
11-29-2008, 04:20 PM
Don't know how to change the color of font via html, so I'll just respond normally.

Yeah, clickies are a pain, but I think that what most people complain about is too many clickies (particularly for the paladin), wherein nearly all of your abilities are so derived. In the case of an archer, I can't think of many clicky abilities (an action boost of one sort or another, maybe, and...what else?). Also, archery is a bit easier to perform while clicking since you may stand back from the action a bit, and because your direction of attack does not need to be as precise as that of melee, usually.

I think the complaints about Deepwood Sniper are due partly to it being compared with Tempest, and partly in the way it functions (I've not used it yet, though shall soon, so I cannot speak from experience)--it sounds as though DWS flags your next attack for a special ability, and then you have to make that attack, rather than the way that smite evil or Divine Sacrifice functions wherein activating the ability causes your character to take a swing.

Personally, I think that rather than a fraction of a percentage point for each point of BAB, archers should benefit just as melee attackers do. It should end up the same, but the difference at each tier of BAB and the feeling of improvement would be would be more distinct.

There should definitely be an improvement from having a higher BAB in any case. As for the 15/15 or 20/10 split of RS vs. IRS, I don't think it matters much, though perhaps making it 10/20, so that the higher level feat has more weight to it than the lower.

Also, yes, the penalty on attacks from Manyshot, even if fully implemented, would not (necessarily) be as big a hit as a penalty to attack speed, I see no reason to go with the second. A melee character may be designed to gain extra damage at an attack penalty and may make an effort to overcome that penalty, whereas nothing may be done to counter an attack speed penalty.

Ultimately, I think Turbine should start implementing some of this, even if they haven't gotten their version (or your/my/our version) quite right, numbers-wise, with the caveat that they may further alter the speeds and such, but throw it out there for testing. See how it performs, and either dial the speed up or down accordingly. I for one have no problem with Turbine making repeated alterations to something that does not directly affect my character build (that is: changes that render a character inoperable).

Aesop
11-29-2008, 04:39 PM
Ultimately, I think Turbine should start implementing some of this, even if they haven't gotten their version (or your/my/our version) quite right, numbers-wise, with the caveat that they may further alter the speeds and such, but throw it out there for testing. See how it performs, and either dial the speed up or down accordingly. I for one have no problem with Turbine making repeated alterations to something that does not directly affect my character build (that is: changes that render a character inoperable).

Definately agreed. RoA for Ranged attackers is just too abysmal to be left as is. The Many Shot for 20 second thing is silly and annoying etc.

I think having Many Shot as a Clicky may actually be a good idea the cooldown may need to be examined but I think it would be a pretty nice effect over all... I suppose we won't know that til they try it though.

Maybe a 10 sec cooldown would be ok or something like that


As for RoA in general I think there should be improvement to that across BAB increases after all as you get better at swinging your weapon around you learn speed and accuracy as well as power.

Aesop

Turial
11-29-2008, 05:26 PM
.....
I think the complaints about Deepwood Sniper are due partly to it being compared with Tempest, and partly in the way it functions (I've not used it yet, though shall soon, so I cannot speak from experience)--it sounds as though DWS flags your next attack for a special ability, and then you have to make that attack, rather than the way that smite evil or Divine Sacrifice functions wherein activating the ability causes your character to take a swing.....

Sniper Shot is an attack clicky similar to smite evil or divine sacrifice, you click it and your character attacks.

If turbine had the ability to flag an attack for an ability to occur then we would have access to alot of neat spells, abilities, and there would be less complaining about clicky attacks in my opinion.

sephiroth1084
11-29-2008, 05:39 PM
I was just thinking about the archery issue a bit more and some thoughts occurred to me, which I had previously not explored, or seen explored.

Archers are penalized beyond their abysmally slow RoF. As an example, let's take a fairly non-min/maxed S&B character (hailed as having fairly low DPS) and compare him with, what seems like, a fairly typical archer. This guy will probably have about a 30 Str (whether a paladin, fighter, or whatever), while an archer will likely have around a 24 Str due to having to focus more heavily on Dex (their primary attribute), and that with a full suite of equipment. So, right off the bat, we're looking at -3 damage vs. S&B, but the shield-bearer may [probably will] take Power Attack, from which archers gain no benefit, granting another +5 over archery. So, ignoring Manyshot for the moment, archers are at a -8 penalty on damage. We are also at a -11 penalty to AC (7 for a heavy shield and 4 for the holding a bow penalty), and cannot use a vorpal weapon in our primary style. On top of that we have the ridiculously low RoF.

Looking at a THF, the damage difference becomes much greater, since they probably have at least a 36 Str, and are getting 1.5x the benefit, so the difference there is 9 points, and another 5 from doubled Power Attack, for a total of 19 points lower DPS than a 2-hander. And we aren't counting rage here, or special power attack modifiers. We probably have a slightly better AC due to the higher Dex, but likely have lower HP (since we are focusing on Dex, and trying to get our Str up a bit as well, but maybe not), and still have no access to vorpals or the splash damage from the THF feat line.

Versus a TWF who has the same Str that we do, we are looking at 3 fewer points of damage (Str to off-hand attacks), and Power Attack still, in addition to many fewer instances of special abilities (Wounding) coming up. We also probably have lower AC.

Archers get less benefit out of on-crit effects because of our lower threat range as a group, have no access to vorpaling, and are more dependent (early in the game) upon Transmuting weapons, since many enemies have DR/not piercing.

Manyshot is somewhat (though not directly) comparable to the paladin's smite evil, which results in 8 shots of between +150 and +500 or so damage, with another shot every minute. We get around the same amount of damage with Manyshot, but greater benefit from on-hit effects.

Additionally, we have a feat (Point Blank Shot) that, in order to gain its benefit, requires us to be almost in melee range anyway. We cannot stay stealthed while attacking, have no access so many of the on-hit special abilities (Assassinate, Stunning Fist/Blow, Trip, Shatter, etc...) and have to be right up front in order to use Sneak Attack as well.

All together, archers deal less damage per shot, have less access to special attacks that have a greater benefit on an encounter or battle, have lower AC, benefit less from many different types of weapon effects, and OH! are also more expensive to run (due to arrows costs) than melee warriors across the classes. On top of all this, there is a stigma attached to being a pure archer, since kiting (one of the few ways of gaining some real benefit from attacking from range) is very irritating for groups to deal with.

Thinking about all of the above made me realize that there is no reason for archer to start at 50 or 60 percent of the rate of attack as melee, nor for it to end at a much slower speed either. Manyshot makes up for some of this in short bursts with a very long period of time between uses, and Improved Precise Shot is too situational to be given much weight when figuring out this equation.

OH! And I almost forgot yet ANOTHER issue, that few make light of: At the current cap, gaining more than 1 level with 0 BAB will result in a hit to an archer's overall DPS due to losing out on the 4th arrow at BAB 15. When the cap goes up, even one level without an increase in BAB will (likely) result in our losing DPS from the presumed extra attack at level 20.

Yes, archery is very good before level 10. If the devs are worried about boosting it too much before that level, throw in IRS, and have it give a 20-30% boost to attack speed to make up for the remaining difference.

Turial
11-29-2008, 05:44 PM
.....

Thinking about all of the above made me realize that there is no reason for archer to start at 50 or 60 percent of the rate of attack as melee, nor for it to end at a much slower speed either. Manyshot makes up for some of this in short bursts with a very long period of time between uses, and Improved Precise Shot is too situational to be given much weight when figuring out this equation.
.....

Actually the best thing in our favor is the fact that Repeaters have the fastest attack rate of any single weapon in the game at 120 Per min with all feats vs bows at 53 per min. If ranged combat was really all that unbalancing then everyone would be using repeaters.

So either everyone is crazy or ranged combat isn't as large an issue these days.

Aesop
11-29-2008, 11:33 PM
Actually the best thing in our favor is the fact that Repeaters have the fastest attack rate of any single weapon in the game at 120 Per min with all feats vs bows at 53 per min. If ranged combat was really all that unbalancing then everyone would be using repeaters.

So either everyone is crazy or ranged combat isn't as large an issue these days.

Oh I know everyone is crazy... just in different ways.

Turial what did you think of Seph's ideas about making Many SHot a Clicky with a few second cooldown?

The only problem I see is that you'd have to click every few seconds in order to maintain DPS and that could be cumbersome.

Aesop

sephiroth1084
11-30-2008, 12:28 AM
Actually the best thing in our favor is the fact that Repeaters have the fastest attack rate of any single weapon in the game at 120 Per min with all feats vs bows at 53 per min. If ranged combat was really all that unbalancing then everyone would be using repeaters.

So either everyone is crazy or ranged combat isn't as large an issue these days.

Well, repeaters have their own downsides: they require 2 feats, and you cannot add your Str to them, and none of the races gets a relevant enhancement line.

Still, they certainly demonstrate that on-hit weapons, and wounders in particular, are not going to be insanely broken with a higher rate of fire. And that Manyshot likely will not be broken either, since a repeater seems similar to using MS.

sephiroth1084
11-30-2008, 01:06 AM
[Edit, double post]

Xyfiel
11-30-2008, 03:57 AM
I still want ranged fixed in general, but for a nice increase to ranged characters, make the cooldown timer for manyshot 40 seconds. Once per minute would be a nice boost while not being overpowered. This should be as simple as changing the number in the code. Tough fight coming up soon, do you:
1) hit manyshot always asap for maximum dps thru quest
2) hold off in case you need the extra dps for the tough part

I find myself doing 2 more often then not.

I would also like to see Deepwood give +1 crit range and multiplier constantly. That by itself is overpowered, so the cons would be:
1) can't be used during manyshot, one increases accuracy, one decreases it. Doesn't go together at all.
2) can't be used during moving, since that lowers to hit. Same as manyshot theory.
Maybe put multiplier at tier I, and range at tier II. Then again I would like a assassin arrow for tier II.

Turial
11-30-2008, 07:55 AM
Oh I know everyone is crazy... just in different ways.

Turial what did you think of Seph's ideas about making Many SHot a Clicky with a few second cooldown?

The only problem I see is that you'd have to click every few seconds in order to maintain DPS and that could be cumbersome.

Aesop

I like it, which is why I have suggested it in the past. Though I was quickly castrated by the melee and close combat crews because they were worried about ranged combat taking over everything.

The thing is that if we got a ROA increase to that of melee we wouldn't have any loss of DPS and only a small potential increase in DPS with the change from buff attack to clicky attack.

Turial
11-30-2008, 08:02 AM
Well, repeaters have their own downsides: they require 2 feats, and you cannot add your Str to them, and none of the races gets a relevant enhancement line.

Still, they certainly demonstrate that on-hit weapons, and wounders in particular, are not going to be insanely broken with a higher rate of fire. And that Manyshot likely will not be broken either, since a repeater seems similar to using MS.

Well to have access to any of the good bow based combat one needs the following feats: Point Blank Shot, WF: Ranged, Rapid Shot, Manyshot and then you can add in Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot. So bow based ranged combat takes 6 total feats vs 3 for repeaters.

The ability to add str to your attack is nice but its not all that in the end because alot of ranged combat is plinking. Yeah you get the occasional kill the mob in a single manyshot volley but thats pretty rare.

The funny thing is that repeaters were the original problem back in beta and ranged combat as a whole was nerfed and here we are 2+ years later and repeaters got the boost over bow based ranged combat which is supposed to be faster in pnp.

Turial
11-30-2008, 08:05 AM
.....
I would also like to see Deepwood give +1 crit range and multiplier constantly. That by itself is overpowered, ....

Oh really?


Current Damage without DS:
Longbow
4.5 damage + 5 from enhancement = 9.5
x3 critical x 9.5 = 28.5 critical hit
Crit chance 10% with IC
Over 2 min 159 attacks with manyshot (144 normal, 15 critical)
Damage = 1795.5 ~14 DPS
Over 2 min 106 attacks without manyshot (96 normal, 10 critical)
Damage = 1197 ~10 DPS

With DS as passive on every shot:
4.5 damage + 5 from enhancement = 9.5
x4 critical x 9.5 = 38.0 critical hit
Crit chance 15% with IC DS applies after IC
Over 2 min 159 attacks with manyshot (135 normal, 24 critical)
Damage = 2194 ~18 DPS
Over 2 min 106 attacks without manyshot (90 normal, 16 critical)
Damage = 1493 ~12 DPS

With DS as passive on every shot:
4.5 damage + 5 from enhancement = 9.5
x4 critical x 9.5 = 38.0 critical hit
Crit chance 30% with IC DS applies before IC
Over 2 min 159 attacks with manyshot (111 normal, 48 critical)
Damage = 2878 ~24 DPS
Over 2 min 106 attacks without manyshot (74 normal, 32 critical)
Damage = 1919 ~16 DPS

Warhammer
4.5 damage + 5 from enhancement = 9.5
x3 critical x 9.5 = 28.5 critical hit
Crit chance 10% with IC
Over 2 min 178 attacks (161 normal, 17 critical)
Damage = 2014 ~17 DPS

The part highlighted in red would be amazing to have.

The 12/18 DPS ratio falls to either side of the 17 DPS churned out by the one handed warhammer user....Most people will use better weapons then the warhammer and get a better DPS setup.

Aesop
12-01-2008, 06:04 AM
OK so the numbers show a distinct lack of DPS in the Ranged department. This is a large contributing factor to making Ranged combat limited in application. In order to make Ranged viable we need to increase its base DPS and its Specialized DPS significantly without overpowering it.

The fun part is in PnP Ranged has as much if not more potential to do damage than single weapon combat does and the only thing that really balances that (in the Core rules) is that Ranged attacks don't have use of the Power Attack Feat and the limitation on the Strength output of the Bow they are using. With Rapid Shot in PnP Archers effectively fire as fast as a hasted single weapon fighter.

Here the feeling is that Ranged would be overpowered if they attack as fast as Melee because they have little risk of direct melee attack. Although in current end game this concern is fairly unfounded as all NPCs but animals have a ranged attack and several of the Mobs have accelerated movement or outright teleportation to catch up with the Archer. A "simple" AI fix to help alleviate the kiting issue would be to have Mobs shoot there ranged weapons while moving towards their intended target.

The simplest way to improve Ranged DPS is to increase the RoA (Rate of Attack). If nothing else of the suggestions the player base have made regarding this issue are taken this one needs to be implemented. Right now we attack slower with ranged weapons than with a single melee weapon of any variety (including the slowest of the slow the Falchion). If we Spend TWO Feat to take Rapid Shot (Rapid Shot has the requirement to take Point Blank Shot unless you are a second level Ranger) we are still firing slower than the slowest Melee weapon.

If we improve AI to include ranged attacking while approaching targets there is no reason to not improve Player Ranged Combat to a full RoA. The rest of the improvements are all subjective at that point. Whether we make Many Shot a stance or a Single Shot Clicky with a 6-10 second cooldown will be largely irrelevant. Whether we include Improved Rapid Shot or not won't matter nearly as much. The core of the Ranged Attackers woes is the RoA.


Changes: Important (1)
1. Improve Mob AI to use Ranged Attacks while approaching
2. Increase Bow RoA to comparable levels with Melee Weapons

Changes: Slightly Less Important (2)
3. Sweeping changes to Deepwoods Sniper first tier
a. Stacking Seeker +4
b. Increase "Point Blank" range
c. Increase Damage +2
d. Sniper Shot +2 Critical Multiplier
e. +1 Hide Move Silently and Spot

4. Many Shot needs a change
a. Single Shot with a 6-10 second cooldown and to hit penalties
b. Stance with RoA reduction and associated penalties

That's all for now I have to go to that place I call work.

Aesop

Aesop
12-01-2008, 04:25 PM
Well then I'm glad you all agree. Now the Devs can get right on this :D


Aesop

Turial
12-02-2008, 05:34 AM
.....
Additionally, working on Manyshot seems more important than working on Deepwood Sniper--more archers will have Manyshot than DS, since rangers not archery specc'ed, those who are, fighters, rogues and barbarians may all have Manyshot, while only archery specialized rangers will have DS. Also, I am somewhat biased here, since I have not yet taken DS on my archer (though I shall be doing so as soon as I can pick up weapon focus to try it out).

Your better off with AA. The force arrows add 185 damage on a consistent basis vs the chance for 6 extra critical hits over a minute, all of which may fail to trigger.

sephiroth1084
12-02-2008, 05:35 AM
Well then I'm glad you all agree. Now the Devs can get right on this :D


Aesop

Haha, yeah. After really thinking about where the numbers lie, and how quests have evolved, it really doesn't make any sense for archery to be so much slower than melee. I think that adjusting the RoF should take priority over tampering with monster AI, since it'd be easier to just up the speed of archery (requiring less dev time), and also because AI changes seem to be almost impossible to code (blocking doorways so monsters won't get through as just one example of a long-standing AI issue that has gone mostly unsolved).

Additionally, working on Manyshot seems more important than working on Deepwood Sniper--more archers will have Manyshot than DS, since rangers not archery specc'ed, those who are, fighters, rogues and barbarians may all have Manyshot, while only archery specialized rangers will have DS. Also, I am somewhat biased here, since I have not yet taken DS on my archer (though I shall be doing so as soon as I can pick up weapon focus to try it out).

Aesop
12-02-2008, 05:49 AM
Haha, yeah. After really thinking about where the numbers lie, and how quests have evolved, it really doesn't make any sense for archery to be so much slower than melee. I think that adjusting the RoF should take priority over tampering with monster AI, since it'd be easier to just up the speed of archery (requiring less dev time), and also because AI changes seem to be almost impossible to code (blocking doorways so monsters won't get through as just one example of a long-standing AI issue that has gone mostly unsolved).

Additionally, working on Manyshot seems more important than working on Deepwood Sniper--more archers will have Manyshot than DS, since rangers not archery specc'ed, those who are, fighters, rogues and barbarians may all have Manyshot, while only archery specialized rangers will have DS. Also, I am somewhat biased here, since I have not yet taken DS on my archer (though I shall be doing so as soon as I can pick up weapon focus to try it out).

oh Blah blah blah ;). I don't really care that much about order of the list in either of those sections doesn't matter much to me at all as long as they are done. RoA and AI seem the most important to me as a way to maintain balance. Actually tyhey've changed Mob AI about 3 times in the last year to "work better". Really the order Manyshot and DS are only slightly lower on that list.

Aesop

sephiroth1084
12-02-2008, 06:01 AM
oh Blah blah blah ;). I don't really care that much about order of the list in either of those sections doesn't matter much to me at all as long as they are done. RoA and AI seem the most important to me as a way to maintain balance. Actually tyhey've changed Mob AI about 3 times in the last year to "work better". Really the order Manyshot and DS are only slightly lower on that list.

Aesop

Okay, yes, if they all get addressed, then the order won't much matter, but given the way Turbine functions, I doubt they'd all be addressed satisfactorily by Mod 11. So, I just felt like putting my 2 cents in on what they should address first. Oh, and while I know that AI changes were made, I don't recall many of them having any significant impact on the game or how it is played (but that may just be due to familiarity with the new AI and a fading memory of the old). I would LOVE monsters that acted more intelligently; if we had some better AI, we might not have to face monsters with a gazillion HP who hit like a truck just to get a challenge.

Aesop
12-02-2008, 06:15 AM
Okay, yes, if they all get addressed, then the order won't much matter, but given the way Turbine functions, I doubt they'd all be addressed satisfactorily by Mod 11. So, I just felt like putting my 2 cents in on what they should address first. Oh, and while I know that AI changes were made, I don't recall many of them having any significant impact on the game or how it is played (but that may just be due to familiarity with the new AI and a fading memory of the old). I would LOVE monsters that acted more intelligently; if we had some better AI, we might not have to face monsters with a gazillion HP who hit like a truck just to get a challenge.

I wholoeheartedly agree :)

Actually the only change thatthey made to ai that really stands out in my mind is the ultra annoying archer/caster ai that means they run around like marathon racers trying to escape just to take a plinking shot at you if they do manage to outrun ya.

I think AI Changes though are a different department from the PC Changes so those could be worked on at the same time... I'll just have faith that they talk to each other during the implementation :D


Aesop

sephiroth1084
12-03-2008, 04:54 AM
... I'll just have faith that they talk to each other during the implementation :D


Aesop

You have an abundant supply apparently. :P

Aesop
12-03-2008, 05:15 AM
You have an abundant supply apparently. :P

Does me no good to assume they'll screw it up. I have no recourse to looking over their collective shoulders and I believe after essentially 3 years of being here that they, while having made a number of errors, do have a great ability to get it right in the long run.

After all to err is human

Aesop

ps worrying only contributes to ulsers and if they do screw up its'll give us something to talk about for a while

Aesop
12-03-2008, 05:57 AM
Just want to add that i like the new proposed Alch rituals, and i propose using Soul Gems for it.

:p

expensive ... but it makes a lot of sense

it would actually make that spell useful.

I like it

Aesop

Ninja Vanish

Venar
12-03-2008, 06:00 AM
Just want to add that i like the new proposed Alch rituals, and i propose using Soul Gems for it.

:p

Aesop
12-05-2008, 03:26 PM
I died
So many years ago
But you can make me feel
Like it isn't so
And why you come to be with me
I think I finally know
mmm-mmm

You're scared
Ashamed of what you feel
And you can't tell the ones you love
You know they couldn't deal
Whisper in a dead man's ear
It doesn't make it real
That's great

But I don't wanna play
'Cause being with you touches me
More than I can say
And since I?m only dead to you
I?m saying stay away and
Let me rest in peace

Let me rest in peace
Let me get some sleep
Let me take my love and bury it
In a hole 6-foot deep
I can lay my body down
But I can't find my, sweet release
So let me rest in peace

You know,
You got a willing slave
And You just love to play the thought
That you might misbehave
But Till you do,
I'm telling you
Stop visiting my grave
Let me rest in peace

I know I should go
But I follow you like a man possessed
There's a traitor here beneath my breast
And it hurts me more than you've ever guessed
If my heart could beat, it would break my chest
but I can see you're unimpressed
So leave me be and

Let me rest in peace
Let me get some sleep
Let me take my love and bury it
Im a hole 6-foot deep
I can lay my body down
But I can't find my sweet release
Let me rest in peace
Why won't you
Let me rest in peace?

Kistilan
12-05-2008, 03:35 PM
I died
Why won't you
Let me rest in peace?

Don't die, Aesop. A butterfly will cry.

Aesop
12-05-2008, 03:38 PM
Don't die, Aesop. A butterfly will cry.

Well we can't have crying butterflies now can we

Aesop

Xyfiel
12-05-2008, 04:26 PM
That is the reason Ranged roa is so slow, to give the butterflies time to get out of the way of a manyshot volley.:rolleyes:

Aesop
12-11-2008, 05:35 PM
Life’s a show and we all play a part
And when the music starts,
We open up our hearts

It’s all right if some things come out wrong.
We’ll sing a happy song
And you can sing along.

Where’s there’s life,
There’s hope.
Everyday’s
A gift.
Wishes can
Come true.
Whistle while
You work.
So hard
All day.

To be like other girls
To fit in in this glittering world.
Don’t give me songs.
Don’t give me songs.

Give me something to sing about.
I need something to sing about.

Life’s a song
You don’t get to rehearse.
And every single verse
Can make it that much worse.

Still my friends
Don’t know why I ignore
The million things or more
I should be dancing for.

All the joy
Life sends.
Family
And friends.
All the twists
And bends
Knowing that
It ends.
Well that
Depends…

On if they let you go,
On if they know enough to know

That when you bow
You leave the crowd.

There was no pain,
No fear, no doubt
Till they pulled me out
Of heaven.

So that’s my refrain.
I live in hell
’Cause I’ve been expelled
From heaven.
I think I was in heaven.

So give me something to sing about.
Please give me something.

Life’s not a song.
Life isn’t bliss.
Life is just this.
It’s living.
You’ll get along.
The pain that you feel
Only can heal
By living.
You have to go on living.
So that one of us is living.

Turial
12-11-2008, 05:47 PM
That is the reason Ranged roa is so slow, to give the butterflies time to get out of the way of a manyshot volley.:rolleyes:

You see how fast those butterflies move man?

Aesop
12-23-2008, 05:09 AM
You're a mean one, Mr. Grinch.
You really are a heel.
You're as cuddly as a cactus,
You're as charming as an eel.
Mr. Grinch.


You're a bad banana
With a greasy black peel.


You're a monster, Mr. Grinch.
Your heart's an empty hole.
Your brain is full of spiders,
You've got garlic in your soul.
Mr. Grinch.


I wouldn't touch you, with a
thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole.


You're a vile one, Mr. Grinch.
You have termites in your smile.
You have all the tender sweetness
Of a seasick crocodile.
Mr. Grinch.


Given the choice between the two of you
I'd take the seasick crockodile.


You're a foul one, Mr. Grinch.
You're a nasty, wasty skunk.
Your heart is full of unwashed socks
Your soul is full of gunk.
Mr. Grinch.


The three words that best describe you,
are, and I quote: "Stink. Stank. Stunk."


You're a rotter, Mr. Grinch.
You're the king of sinful sots.
Your heart's a dead tomato splot
With moldy purple spots,
Mr. Grinch.


Your soul is an apalling dump heap overflowing
with the most disgraceful assortment of deplorable
rubbish imaginable,
Mangled up in tangled up knots.


You nauseate me, Mr. Grinch.
With a nauseaus super-naus.
You're a crooked jerky jockey
And you drive a crooked horse.
Mr. Grinch.


You're a three decker saurkraut and toadstool
sandwich
With arsenic sauce.