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Aspenor
11-05-2008, 08:18 AM
With all the hullabaloo about the weaknesses of S&B fighting it had originally appeared that Turbine had made an adjustment to equalize the armor class playing field with the dex build/monk splash. As it is impossible to wear both an Icy Raiment and DT Armor at the same time, S&B tanks finally seemed able to catch up a little by getting a dodge bonus on their armor.

Not so, said Turbine. They made it not stack with the Chattering Ring, more than likely because of a copy/paste of code. As two dodge bonuses from the same source do not stack, and the same code was used with no adjustments, the two do not stack.

Why?

It really makes no sense. No sense at all.

Turbine passed up a major opportunity to throw S&B characters the bone that they really needed.

I plead with Turbine, for the sake of my intimitank dwarven defender type and all other lovers of the S&B, to change this design decision. As is, there is, quite literally, no reason for me to attempt to craft new DT armor for any of my characters. Maybe, just maybe, for my Spellsword build, who cares not about AC and cares not about casting, but he really loves the boost to-hit of the Breastplate of Destruction.

Harncw
11-05-2008, 08:22 AM
Surely that's just a wee mistake, and a dev will come along any moment now to ackowledge...



*hears crickets*

rimble
11-05-2008, 08:26 AM
DT Shields woulda been nice. Make +4 Insight AC bonus one of the enchantments. Regardless, can't believe they ignored shields...again...

I'd prefer if Dodge bonuses just don't stack, highest one applies. Making Dodge AC bonus items was a mistake in the first place.

Silverjade
11-05-2008, 08:26 AM
It gives room to add shield crafting and makes the shield crafting able to have +4 dodge on it giving it a boost.
If they added shields with +4 you can get a +9dodge from chaos DT and the shield plus other gear.
Makes sense to me and its a 3 point lose of ac made up for by the fact that you can have the nat armor the port and one other on the DT robe.

Thriand
11-05-2008, 08:29 AM
Surely that's just a wee mistake, and a dev will come along any moment now to ackowledge...



*hears crickets*
Devs have already stated this was intentional

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1918715&postcount=71

Aspenor
11-05-2008, 08:30 AM
Devs have already stated this was intentional

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1918715&postcount=71

Yup yup. It's that post that I'm whining about :p

Dracolich
11-05-2008, 08:42 AM
I am glad they are attempting to level the field a bit. I know it does not seem so at first but "if" they add shields with dodge bonuses then it will. We needed a hardcap on ACs as it was in my opinion. I also feel they should impose the same AC caps on enemies too and stop with blanket immunities to make up for bad AI.

Borror0
11-05-2008, 08:44 AM
They made it not stack with the Chattering Ring, more than likely because of a copy/paste of code. As two dodge bonuses from the same source do not stack, and the same code was used with no adjustments, the two do not stack.
Let me doubt that, quite honestly.

Let's say you don't have:

Heighten Awareness IV, -3 or 4 AC
Chattering Ring, -3 AC
Alchemical Shield Eldritch Ritual, -1 AC
+5 MFP/Dragontouched Fullplate, -2 AC

In a d20 system, that is enormous!

That ring clearly isn't easy to get. The Heighten Awareness weapon takes a lot of grinding. (Mostly because you'd want it to have Transmuting, to be able to use it against as many mobs as you can and because a lot of mobs that you do want to DPS can't be beat with other Shroud weapons.) And, I don't have the ingredients for the Alchemical Shield Eldritch Ritual. (That's a lot of grinding.)

You want to add another +3 to it!?

I'm all for adding some grinding to make the character better, but that is just nuts.

If it wasn't intentional, it was a good move. Yes, the rules for it are weird and it is a deviation from PnP. But, having Dodge bonus on items was a mistake and also was a deviation from PnP rules! (A more elegant way to do it would be to change the bonus type on the Chattering Ring and the Armor so they don't stack anymore. But, maybe Eladrin likes it better this way from a balance point of view.)

As is, there is, quite literally, no reason for me to attempt to craft new DT armor for any of my characters.
Don't tell me there is no reason to make one for your intimitank.

With all the hullabaloo about the weaknesses of S&B fighting it had originally appeared that Turbine had made an adjustment to equalize the armor class playing field with the dex build/monk splash. As it is impossible to wear both an Icy Raiment and DT Armor at the same time, S&B tanks finally seemed able to catch up a little by getting a dodge bonus on their armor.
...they could just nerf the rainment. (Maybe by changing it's bonus type or simply nerfing it.)

Yes. I just said that! You can now proceed to flame me.

Thrudh
11-05-2008, 08:48 AM
...they could just nerf the rainment. (Maybe by changing it's bonus type or simply nerfing it.)

Yes. I just said that! You can now proceed to flame me.

They should just change the raiment to +3 dodge bonus...

Then there will be three ways to get that +3 dodge bonus... Chattering ring, raiments, DT armor...

Equal the playing field very nicely

(and they could then add even a couple more +3 dodge items at that point - rare in certain chests - not necessary but people could grind them if they want to use a different slot for their +3 dodge bonus)

liamfrancais
11-05-2008, 08:54 AM
I had just finished running prey to the hunter with my fighter/barbarian last night and was looting the chest and I could not help but thinking is this worth it for this character. He wears the crippling armor and has leviks shield if all I can get out of defeating the newest raid is a different armor is that really going to help me any with his current set up he stands at 38 ac unbuffed so really just about any high end mobs will hit him. I was thinking it would be worth while to concentrate on my cleric and WF characters in this area but I am not sure. I really like the new content and I am getting the hang of the quests, they are challenging and fast paced so maybe not too good for a RP group that likes to smell the roses. Did the dragon optional which was a tough fight liked that it gave up a white dragon scale now if only velah would shed some of hers that would be cool and almost make it worth running the raid. By I digress, I was just looking for some insight on the attributes of the Dragontouched armor and for whom it is best suited.

Silverjade
11-05-2008, 09:00 AM
I for one don't think we should *nerf* the icy by dropping its dodge adding shields that you can craft have +4 dodge would be the better way IMO because the ones who do use icy wont be able to use the shields and in that way it evens out.

Borror0
11-05-2008, 09:02 AM
I for one don't think we should *nerf* the icy by dropping its dodge adding shields that you can make have +4 dodge would be the better way IMO because the ones who do use icy wont be able to use the shields and in that way it evens out.
But then, you recreate the problem they could have solved by not making the +3's stack.

Unless the shield is an extremely common drop.

Junts
11-05-2008, 09:03 AM
A toon that doesn't care about AC probably benefits the most from this, as there's no need to work around your AC considerations and different max dex, but you can make shroud-caliber armor and condense slots massively - moving, say, heavy fort and +str or con onto your armor, (or GFL, or pick up +5 resistance, etc, get trueseeing on your tier 2 and not have to have Tharnes, etc), and still pick up a wonderful melee tier 3 option (a shroud guard like airguard or earthguard or sundering ooze).

Then think about how many EQ slots you can condense that way and free up for wearing utility gear (firestorm greaves or Kundarak boots all t he time, another shroud crafted item, etc)

Silverjade
11-05-2008, 09:05 AM
But then, you recreate the problem they could have solved by not making the +3's stack.

Unless the shield is an extremely common drop.

Oh i meant crafting shields my bad :p.

Aspenor
11-05-2008, 09:06 AM
Don't tell me there is no reason to make one for your intimitank.

There really isn't. Yeah, I told you.

Borror0
11-05-2008, 09:10 AM
There really isn't. Yeah, I told you.
What do you currently wear?

Aspenor
11-05-2008, 09:14 AM
What do you currently wear?

Full Plate of the Defender, Chattering Ring, Con 6 neck, Dex 6 Gloves, Belt of Brute Strength, +15 int helm, Madstone Boots/Golden Greaves, Mineral II DA, +5 Mithral TS, +5 Prot Ring, Mineral I Gogs (will eventually be Min II, lose Prot Ring and add something else), Kardin's Eye, Swappable elemental resist cloaks, feather fall cloak, charisma cloak for intimidate, Chaosgard.

Borror0
11-05-2008, 09:18 AM
Full Plate of the Defender

Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you gain +2 from the armor? Wouldn't fearsome be another +2 against trash mobs? Aren't the other effects on it possibly interesting?

At least, from what I understand of the way dragontouched armor are made. You would.

Aspenor
11-05-2008, 09:19 AM
Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you gain +2 from the armor? Wouldn't fearsome be another +2?

Aren't the other effects on it possibly interesting?

At what cost? Immense amounts of Action Points that are better served beefing my hit points.

Sure, they're "interesting," like maybe I won't have to chug barkskin pots....:cool:

Murderface
11-05-2008, 09:25 AM
With all the hullabaloo about the weaknesses of S&B fighting it had originally appeared that Turbine had made an adjustment to equalize the armor class playing field with the dex build/monk splash. As it is impossible to wear both an Icy Raiment and DT Armor at the same time, S&B tanks finally seemed able to catch up a little by getting a dodge bonus on their armor.

Not so, said Turbine. They made it not stack with the Chattering Ring, more than likely because of a copy/paste of code. As two dodge bonuses from the same source do not stack, and the same code was used with no adjustments, the two do not stack.

Why?

It really makes no sense. No sense at all.

Turbine passed up a major opportunity to throw S&B characters the bone that they really needed.

I plead with Turbine, for the sake of my intimitank dwarven defender type and all other lovers of the S&B, to change this design decision. As is, there is, quite literally, no reason for me to attempt to craft new DT armor for any of my characters. Maybe, just maybe, for my Spellsword build, who cares not about AC and cares not about casting, but he really loves the boost to-hit of the Breastplate of Destruction.

that ring has a tendancy to put people into a gear squeeze so i dont think its so bad, besdies if anyone is making out its sword and boards -1 chattering ring slot

Dexxaan
11-05-2008, 09:25 AM
I'd prefer if Dodge bonuses just don't stack, highest one applies. Making Dodge AC bonus items was a mistake in the first place.

/disagree


If you don´t allow Dodge Bonuses to stack.....all you are doing is making Icy Rainments and DEX Fighters 400% more overpowered than they already are compared to an Armor-Clad Tank.

Armor Class needs to mean something and I would like to see the Armor and Shield TYPES mean MORE.

I.E. Full Plate : gets DR of ( ? ) compared to Chain Shirt. (Big DR Difference should apply.)

Tower Shields vs Bucklers also should have huge benefit differences and maybe Armor and Shield DR could stack? Just a thought.

Aspenor
11-05-2008, 09:28 AM
/disagree


If you don´t allow Dodge Bonuses to stack.....all you are doing is making Icy Rainments and DEX Fighters 400% more overpowered than they already are compared to an Armor-Clad Tank.

Armor Class needs to mean something and I would like to see the Armor and Shield TYPES mean MORE.

I.E. Full Plate : gets DR of ( ? ) compared to Chain Shirt. (Big DR Difference should apply.)

Tower Shields vs Bucklers also should have huge benefit differences and maybe Armor and Shield DR could stack? Just a thought.

I already formulated such a system and it was poo poo'd as being overpowered and requiring a revamp of the entire game.

Which, I think, is a bit of an exaggerated excuse.

rimble
11-05-2008, 09:31 AM
If you don´t allow Dodge Bonuses to stack.....all you are doing is making Icy Rainments and DEX Fighters 400% more overpowered than they already are compared to an Armor-Clad Tank.

Nah, equalize Dodge bonuses by capping them, rather than making everyone have to stack up to the same amount. Everyone stacking to +9 Dodge is the same as everyone stacking to +4 Dodge, but easier to keep track of, plan for (in terms of game balance), and understand (in terms of coherent stacking rules). It also promotes flexibility, you can begin allowing Dodge bonuses in other equipment slots, and in varying bonuses, without fear of creating some crazy +15 Dodge monster. It could even become a random loot enchantment (along with my Amulet of Natural Armor, helloooooo, where are yoooouuuu?)

Fix the situation where it targets the types who need it: put the balancing features on Heavy Armor and Shields. And for crying out loud, let's at least make an ATTEMPT at some decent crafted Shields...holy cow...

noinfo
11-05-2008, 09:34 AM
I am glad they are attempting to level the field a bit. I know it does not seem so at first but "if" they add shields with dodge bonuses then it will. We needed a hardcap on ACs as it was in my opinion. I also feel they should impose the same AC caps on enemies too and stop with blanket immunities to make up for bad AI.

At the same time they hard cap:
Stats
HP
DPS

Dexxaan
11-05-2008, 09:34 AM
I already formulated such a system and it was poo poo'd as being overpowered and requiring a revamp of the entire game.

Which, I think, is a bit of an exaggerated excuse.

I was wondering if it was your post that came to mind.

Sorry it was "Poo-Pood" but then again, "Most good ideas meet the greatest resistance from mediocre minds"....... (Think Twain said that...gotta check)

Dexxaan
11-05-2008, 09:36 AM
At the same time they hard cap:
Stats
HP
DPS

And Spell Points and Movement Speed ..... :rolleyes: Why not Cap Haggle, Jump, UMD, and goverment Social programs! (Wait Definitely CAP THAT)

Borror0
11-05-2008, 09:37 AM
I already formulated such a system and it was poo poo'd as being overpowered and requiring a revamp of the entire game.

Which, I think, is a bit of an exaggerated excuse.
No. It's not.

It is a drastic change and is hard to balance.

Aspenor
11-05-2008, 09:41 AM
No. It's not.

It is a drastic change and is hard to balance.

You say that like it's a fact, and not an opinion. ;)

Borror0
11-05-2008, 09:48 AM
You say that like it's a fact, and not an opinion. ;)
It's my opinion, stated strongly. If that makes you happy. But, being hard to balance is a fact though.

Dracolich
11-05-2008, 09:51 AM
And Spell Points and Movement Speed ..... :rolleyes: Why not Cap Haggle, Jump, UMD, and goverment Social programs! (Wait Definitely CAP THAT)

Thought Jump was capped? Movment speed is capped. Haggle is a made up stat and not even in PnP. UMD they house ruled because no item in PnP has a 40+dc to use to my knowlege they over inflated DCs to accomidate for them putting UMD items ingame.

So go ahead give me some more. Or are you all out of sarcastic retorts?

eyepuppy
11-05-2008, 09:55 AM
At what cost? Immense amounts of Action Points that are better served beefing my hit points.

Sure, they're "interesting," like maybe I won't have to chug barkskin pots....:cool:

The Fullplate has +2 base armor bonus on top of it's normal bonuses. You lose your +2 DEX bonus, but you gain it back in armor bonus. You can (in theory), gain more AC from FP if you want to spend more AP, but you can get just as much by switching to dragoncraft FP. Then you can get +5 protection, +5 resistance and a guard on your armor. That's pretty hot! I just don't like that there is no evasion love :( Ohh well. We can't have it all :)

Dexxaan
11-05-2008, 10:26 AM
So go ahead give me some more. Or are you all out of sarcastic retorts?

Good thing you recognized the sarcasm (you had me worried there for a bit reading your academic explanations of my Sarc-Humour)

All out? Not really but lets just say you haven´t motivated me to list more...the joke was clear and most people got it and were satisfied.

I use the humour for pointing out what appears to be lost so often.you obviously are on a Sarcasm-Binge and I´m not a fast food restaurant catering to your wants. :cool:

Alcides
11-05-2008, 11:13 AM
In response to this post I propose that the +4 dodge bonus to AC on Icy Raiment be henceforth set to +3. This will have the desired effect of balancing Cloth AC with S&B AC. No more high AC for j00 :D

Dracolich
11-05-2008, 11:21 AM
I use the humour for pointing out what appears to be lost so often.you obviously are on a Sarcasm-Binge and I´m not a fast food restaurant catering to your wants. :cool:

/poke :D

Man all I have been eating on these forums is sarcasm. It seems we all have a sarcastic nerve in us that needs irritated every now and again.

Angelus_dead
11-05-2008, 11:54 AM
With all the hullabaloo about the weaknesses of S&B fighting it had originally appeared that Turbine had made an adjustment to equalize the armor class playing field with the dex build/monk splash. As it is impossible to wear both an Icy Raiment and DT Armor at the same time, S&B tanks finally seemed able to catch up a little by getting a dodge bonus on their armor.
Your complaint is backwards.

The non-stacking of the Dodge bonus is in favor of S&B characters, and against high-dex builds. The fact that it doesn't stack with a Chattering Ring frees armored characters from the need to find and wear a Chattering Ring.

If the two effects DID stack, then high-dex people in the Icy Rainment would be able to switch out Chattering for another ring, gain a Tempest and Eldritch effect, and skip farming the Warforged Titan, for the cost of only -1 AC (possibly worthwhile). But since Sovereign Dodge is not even a partial substitute for Icy Dodge, they can't do this without suffering -4 AC (almost certainly not worth it).

Furthermore, because a DT fp/bp/docent has +2 armor instead of +2 max dex like Mithral items and DT leather do, it also potentially frees an armored tank from the need to wear a dex item, giving him another slot for something cool.

Angelus_dead
11-05-2008, 12:21 PM
Full Plate of the Defender, Chattering Ring, Con 6 neck, Dex 6 Gloves, Belt of Brute Strength, +15 int helm, Madstone Boots/Golden Greaves, Mineral II DA, +5 Mithral TS, +5 Prot Ring, Mineral I Gogs (will eventually be Min II, lose Prot Ring and add something else), Kardin's Eye, Swappable elemental resist cloaks, feather fall cloak, charisma cloak for intimidate, Chaosgard.
You don't specify your class, but since it's not Paladin it looks like Fighter.

Currently you have:
+5 Fullplate = 13 AC
+5 Tower = 9 AC
Total = 22 AC

The max dex on your armor is 1 base + 2 mithral + 3 FAM = 6. The max dex on your shield is 2 base + 2 mithral + 3 FTSM = 7. So add the lower of those to your AC, and from armor, shield, and dex you get 22+6 = 28 total. If you were a dwarf you'd have 1 more armor dex, bringing it to 29 total.

Switching to dragontouched fullplate would mean:
DT fullplate = 15 AC
+5 Tower = 9 AC
Total = 24 AC

Armor max dex = 1 base + 3 FAM = 4. Shield max dex = same = 7. Add the lower and your AC comes to 24+4 = 28. If you're a dwarf you'd have 3 more armor dex, coming to 31 AC.

So, the non-dwarf gets 28 AC either way, but he drops FTSM II to recover 6 AP. He also gets a ring slot back from Chattering, and possibly a glove slot back from dexerity, which can be used for other items to boost DPS or defense.

A dwarf gets 31 AC with Dragontouched, +2 above his previous number, although he pays another 12 AP for it (and he can't drop a dex item). If he didn't think 2 AC was worth 12 AP he doesn't have to pay, and he gets the same item-slot benefits as a non-dwarf.

Aspenor
11-05-2008, 12:32 PM
You don't specify your class, but since it's not Paladin it looks like Fighter.

Currently you have:
+5 Fullplate = 13 AC
+5 Tower = 9 AC
Total = 22 AC

The max dex on your armor is 1 base + 2 mithral + 3 FAM = 6. The max dex on your shield is 2 base + 2 mithral + 3 FTSM = 7. So add the lower of those to your AC, and from armor, shield, and dex you get 22+6 = 28 total. If you were a dwarf you'd have 1 more armor dex, bringing it to 29 total.

Switching to dragontouched fullplate would mean:
DT fullplate = 15 AC
+5 Tower = 9 AC
Total = 24 AC

Armor max dex = 1 base + 3 FAM = 4. Shield max dex = same = 7. Add the lower and your AC comes to 24+4 = 28. If you're a dwarf you'd have 3 more armor dex, coming to 31 AC.

So, the non-dwarf gets 28 AC either way, but he drops FTSM II to recover 6 AP. He also gets a ring slot back from Chattering, and possibly a glove slot back from dexerity, which can be used for other items to boost DPS or defense.

A dwarf gets 31 AC with Dragontouched, +2 above his previous number, although he pays another 12 AP for it (and he can't drop a dex item). If he didn't think 2 AC was worth 12 AP he doesn't have to pay, and he gets the same item-slot benefits as a non-dwarf.
Assuming I'm a Dwarf with 22 Dex (with +6 item), you're saying replacing the Full Plate of the Defender with, say, DT FP with Heavy Fort, Protection +5, and +3 Dodge, would bag me a protection ring slot and chattering ring slot, a dex glove spot, and time/energy spent farming for mineral II at tier III, at the cost of +2 to-hit and 3 reflex save?

I'd end up with the same AC except those changes, right?

Angelus_dead
11-05-2008, 12:45 PM
Assuming I'm a Dwarf with 22 Dex (with +6 item), you're saying
You could choose either to save some slots and AP, or gain +2 AC. It is widely believed that AC characters cherish every single point of AC, so it's hard to see how one would complain that his AC has gone up.


at the cost of +2 to-hit and 3 reflex save?
The reflex saves are not necessarily important, and if you feel +3 reflex is worth an item slot you can always do that. Alternatively, you can wear Madstone (or have Cat's Grace cast in a variety of affordable ways) and then it's only -1 reflex.

The +2 attack rolls is phony, because in situations that matter a bard has used Inspire Greatness already. Alternatively, you can get +2 attack on a ring for the Chattering slot (which would also provide +3 reflex, while keeping gloves free for Backstab or Brambles).

Aspenor
11-05-2008, 12:48 PM
You could choose either to save some slots and AP, or gain +2 AC. It is widely believed that AC characters cherish every single point of AC, so it's hard to see how one would complain that his AC has gone up.

Well the reason I worded it that way is because I don't feel 2 AC is worth the 12 AP spent at current end-game.

I know the +2 to hit is sorta phony but you dont *always* have a bard so its still a sacrifice.

Angelus_dead
11-05-2008, 12:56 PM
Well the reason I worded it that way is because I don't feel 2 AC is worth the 12 AP spent at current end-game.
Ok, if you don't feel 2 AC is worth some AP then you'd switch from Mithral Tower to Lorickk's Champion. Recover the APs from FTSM and shift them into FAM/DAM.

Borror0
11-05-2008, 01:01 PM
Well the reason I worded it that way is because I don't feel 2 AC is worth the 12 AP spent at current end-game.
By the way, Armor and Tower Shield Mastery should be lowered the same way Bulwark of Good was.

Aspenor
11-05-2008, 01:02 PM
Ok, if you don't feel 2 AC is worth some AP then you'd switch from Mithral Tower to Lorickk's Champion. Recover the APs from FTSM and shift them into FAM/DAM.

That's only 6 AP gained from dropping FTSM, and 12 spent to get FAM 3 and DAM 3.

For a second there I thought I could regain some to-hit by switching to a heavy shield...but I can't fabricate AP.

Aspenor
11-05-2008, 01:03 PM
By the way, Armor and Tower Shield Mastery should be lowered the same way Bulwark of Good was.

Agreed 110%.

Turial
11-05-2008, 01:04 PM
By the way, Armor and Tower Shield Mastery should be lowered the same way Bulwark of Good was.

Agree. Alot of enhancments need to get looked at again to make sure the cost/benafit cost ratio is realistic.

Dexxaan
11-05-2008, 02:02 PM
/Agreed.

maddmatt70
11-05-2008, 02:06 PM
I am looking at this from the perspective of my fighter norg, who is primarily twf but will often go sword and board or sometimes turtle and wears the full plate of the defender. The two ac isn't worth an extra 10 action points to get them - he does have a high dex. The 6 action points saved if I chose to remain the same ac with the DT armor would get me only 10 hit points and 1 spell defense, but it would cost me +2 to hit when no bard is around.

I have all of the useful qualities of the DT armor in other slots other then perhaps a guard or maybe sr 22 so not a huge benefit there. It doesn't seem worth the grind now. The key point is it isn't worth the farming right now as it's primary benefit in my opinion is as a slot saver. I have everything on Norg I want and need and can fit in a bloodstone, goggles from VOD, Madstone boots etc., but if they came out with a new item next mod say a necklace that I really wanted then I would have to find space for it - that is where I see DT armor being useful is if I need to create more room to fit stuff in.

It is not very sexy to farm for the future, but I may do some of that on norg just stockpile a few runes and then when next mod comes out maybe make something if I need to free up a slot or two.

Angelus_dead
11-05-2008, 02:13 PM
That's only 6 AP gained from dropping FTSM, and 12 spent to get FAM 3 and DAM 3.
Ok, your character doesn't fit the standard analysis, because with only 22 dex you already weren't filling out a fighter's mithral tower shield.

Depending on your tome situation, your actual dex might be 23, in which case the +1 dex on DT armor could help you gain further AC.

Angelus_dead
11-05-2008, 02:14 PM
It is not very sexy to farm for the future, but I may do some of that on norg just stockpile a few runes and then when next mod comes out maybe make something if I need to free up a slot or two.
True, DT fp would be more attractive today if there were some uber rings around to make recovering a ring slot from Chattering more valuable.

Aspenor
11-05-2008, 02:18 PM
Ok, your character doesn't fit the standard analysis, because with only 22 dex you already weren't filling out a fighter's mithral tower shield.

Depending on your tome situation, your actual dex might be 23, in which case the +1 dex on DT armor could help you gain further AC.

correct, i have 22 dex, and haven't taken a +2 or +3 tome because I haven't gotten the +3. I have deemed it unnecessary to use a +2 as I'd only get to 23, and it'd get me access to twf, but I'd rather just wait it out for the +3.

maddmatt70
11-05-2008, 02:25 PM
By the way has anybody tested that smite effect that comes from the sovereign rune.. I have no idea if that is any good. If it is something decent from an offensive perspective then I would make a suit of armor. If it were anything like a lightning strike or something...

Vorn
11-05-2008, 02:57 PM
By the way, Armor and Tower Shield Mastery should be lowered the same way Bulwark of Good was.

Agree with this!!! Yea, common ground!!

Looking at my fighter which is much like Norg only an elf, I will probably bank the runes and see what the next mod brings slot-wise and enhancement wise. With only FAM III to work with I could save a few tower shield enhancement points, but for me the overall AC is a "push" loosing two dex but gaining two armor.

Building hvy fort/+5 pro/ xxx would free up one slot from my current gear set up with the FPotD and maybe allow something fun, but I'm not sure I have something that would be that useful to replace it with. Took me forever to get the lightning split soar woods so I put the saving throw +1 on my chattering ring, so I will probably keep that slotted.

Turial
11-05-2008, 03:04 PM
By the way has anybody tested that smite effect that comes from the sovereign rune.. I have no idea if that is any good. If it is something decent from an offensive perspective then I would make a suit of armor. If it were anything like a lightning strike or something...

Its the same as the weapon effect smite....kills constructs. Not the same as the paladin ability.

maddmatt70
11-05-2008, 03:11 PM
Its the same as the weapon effect smite....kills constructs. Not the same as the paladin ability.

Thanks.. So pretty lame then unless we fight alot of constructs next mod..

Turial
11-05-2008, 03:13 PM
Thanks.. So pretty lame then unless we fight alot of constructs next mod..

Makes part of me wonder if banishing is in the table as well. That one would be worth its weight in gold.

Thriand
11-05-2008, 03:20 PM
At what cost? Immense amounts of Action Points that are better served beefing my hit points.

Sure, they're "interesting," like maybe I won't have to chug barkskin pots....:cool:

you could maintain the same AC you have in you mithral full plate with the dragontouched armor by spending action points on armor mastery but not tower shield mastery. That way you save action points. You could even make it a practical replica of the FPotD by putting heavyfort and protection +5 on it + whatever you want for the sovereign tier.

15 Armor +4 dex is the same as 13 armor +6 dex

maddmatt70
11-05-2008, 03:21 PM
Makes part of me wonder if banishing is in the table as well. That one would be worth its weight in gold.

hmm odds of getting a specific sovereign rune seems remote what with 26 qualities or so listed thus far. I would just accept fate when you get a decent quality for your character. My battle bard for instance got destruction on the third soveriegn rune she used. There may be something better for her, but I am not taking any chances and grinding like crazy for her its just not worth it.

Turial
11-05-2008, 03:23 PM
hmm odds of getting a specific sovereign rune seems remote what with 26 qualities or so listed thus far. I would just accept fate when you get a decent quality for your character. My battle bard for instance got destruction on the third soveriegn rune she used. There may be something better for her, but I am not taking any chances and grinding like crazy for her its just not worth it.

I failed to kill Sojek so I haven't had a chance to get the tier 3 rune yet. I ended up with +3 cha skills and +1 exceptional con so far....Need to change those two.

maddmatt70
11-05-2008, 03:28 PM
Makes part of me wonder if banishing is in the table as well. That one would be worth its weight in gold.

What I would real like to see now that I think about it and I would almost grind for this is a puncturing weapon effect on the armor. That would give slash specced and bludgeon the ability to compete with pierce specced.

Dexxaan
11-05-2008, 03:33 PM
What I would real like to see now that I think about it and I would almost grind for this is a puncturing weapon effect on the armor. That would give slash specced and bludgeon the ability to compete with pierce specced.

Yeah. That way all you need is a +5 Wounding Rapier and we all can be Swashbuckling Barbarians.

Now where did I put my Whitelocks Wig and Louis XIV shoes?

maddmatt70
11-05-2008, 03:45 PM
Yeah. That way all you need is a +5 Wounding Rapier and we all can be Swashbuckling Barbarians.

Now where did I put my Whitelocks Wig and Louis XIV shoes?

Hey I know you play the same game I do and can see just how much more powerful w/p twf guys are in this mod. I mean in the dragon quest and sorjak quest they are way better then any other type of melee: S&B, THF, even twf slash or bludge specs. Something has to be done with that.

Aesop
11-05-2008, 04:03 PM
Your complaint is backwards.

The non-stacking of the Dodge bonus is in favor of S&B characters, and against high-dex builds. The fact that it doesn't stack with a Chattering Ring frees armored characters from the need to find and wear a Chattering Ring.

If the two effects DID stack, then high-dex people in the Icy Rainment would be able to switch out Chattering for another ring, gain a Tempest and Eldritch effect, and skip farming the Warforged Titan, for the cost of only -1 AC (possibly worthwhile). But since Sovereign Dodge is not even a partial substitute for Icy Dodge, they can't do this without suffering -4 AC (almost certainly not worth it).

Furthermore, because a DT fp/bp/docent has +2 armor instead of +2 max dex like Mithral items and DT leather do, it also potentially frees an armored tank from the need to wear a dex item, giving him another slot for something cool.

Something about this seems off to me A_D. I mean I see that the DT Armor is a lovely space saver and all that jazz... but a Dex IR build can still get the Ring and still be a higher AC than a S&B or any other build and still fits all the stuff they want into the slots available.

I suppose if they add a DT Shield build and make the top tier havea +4 Dodge slot that would address a part of the problem... but I dunno that is a terrific idea either. If this had stacked then those IR builds would have the DT as a substitute option for IR and Armor wearing builds would have been bumped up a little. I know inflation is bad and all that but ... call it a gut reaction that this feels... wrong

yeah maybe in time I'll come around

Aesop

Aesop
11-05-2008, 04:06 PM
What I would real like to see now that I think about it and I would almost grind for this is a puncturing weapon effect on the armor. That would give slash specced and bludgeon the ability to compete with pierce specced.

I understand what you're saying but the whole Stat Damage on Weapons is a huge mistake I think... its a game changer


Aesop


My List of DDO Top three opps I added something bad list would look like

1. Stat Damaging Weapons
2. Dodge Bonuses on Items
3. Green Steel and its ilk (epic items too early)

Dexxaan
11-05-2008, 04:16 PM
Hey I know you play the same game I do and can see just how much more powerful w/p twf guys are in this mod. I mean in the dragon quest and sorjak quest they are way better then any other type of melee: S&B, THF, even twf slash or bludge specs. Something has to be done with that.


I agree with you...there is nothing wrong in your statement, but I guess the approach I have is similar to Aesops.

* Drop Stat Damaging altogether or lets have "Sorjek protected mobs" from here on after to make DPS mean something again?

We have gotten used to these 6 second melee-bursts where we go in hack and slay a boatload of mobs and move on....no real strategy, no endurance test of AC, HP, Saves...it´s zoom and Swish play, and theres plenty of games that give you that...and DDO would do well to steer away from this form of play.

Borror0
11-05-2008, 05:30 PM
I guess the approach I have is similar to Aesops.

* Drop Stat Damaging altogether or lets have "Sorjek protected mobs" from here on after to make DPS mean something again?

I think the best would just be to nerf the HP... and casters' DPS if need be.
(We could give them real dices. The effect wouldn't be perceived by most. It would even take a while before people notice it.;))

Junts
11-05-2008, 07:50 PM
True, DT fp would be more attractive today if there were some uber rings around to make recovering a ring slot from Chattering more valuable.


Here's a powerful argument:

You can move a +6 stat away from Necklace, Gloves, or in the case of boots, Striding, to your ring slot, regaining a craftable slot for neg/neg/neg immunities, exceptional resistances, another guard trigger (earthgrab or air on tanks = mmm), etc.

So in effect by moving your chattering AC you could be effectively gaining disease blindness fear poison deathblock slay living guard on your plate, etc.

My tank (a very different build from these guys, as he was 16 dex and no FAM, and already gained 2 ac from DT by being able to save a belt slot and use the Daggertooth belt to get his AC mod back) doesn't need the neg immunities, but he could now have a 3rd shroud accessory as say, an airguard 45 resistance item.

Or, since that would take another 30 shrouds, I could use assorted utility boots (Innocent, Firestorms, Madstones, my Kundarak Delving boots, etc) constantly w/o any loss of speed by moving Striding to the saved ring slot.

My tank is now at a 60 AC in front of a beholder, 64 selfbuffed, and doesn't yet have the +3 dodge bonus in either slot.