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View Full Version : A Frightning Problem that is Growing.



bobbryan2
11-03-2008, 04:18 PM
Mod 8 has continued a growing problem that keeps getting worse with every mod that comes out.

Chest Loot.

It's getting worse and worse with every mod. I'm not saying the chest levels are going down, or that the minimum levels of items are going down, but all the same, chest loot is less and less powerful with every passing mod. And now we're at a point where chest loot is on the verge of being completely worthless.

It all started in Mod 3 when we had the loot weekends. Everyone started pulling vorpals, and life was good. Finally there was a realistic chance of getting that mythic item that everyone wanted. Mod 4 made them a little more common, and around the time, I remember hearing people say, "Where are the new effects? Now that vorpals are common, what will be the new 'vorpal?"

Weapons went from min lvl 10, to 12, to 14, to 16, and still.. vorpal remains one of the only power 5 weapons in the game. They're as common as sand now, and most new mobs are built in with immunity to them.

So what became the new vorpal? Well, named loot did. Dragonscale armor had effects you could only dream of getting on a robe in a chest. Beholder's Optic Nerves, silver flame trinkets, scourged chokers, and everything else started coming out with new and fun effects. And for a while, it was still ok. DPS was still something you could only get from random effects and the prices for things like +5 icy burst Greataxes, or +5 axiomatic greataxe of righteousness were sky high.

Then came the Shroud, and it all went away. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing that you could ever possibly pull from a chest that will compare with shroud weaponry with regards to DPS. Nothing. In fact.. DPS totals really haven't increased at all in mods from random effects, because we peaked in Mod 4 with things like the +5 axiomatic greataxe of righteousness.

Ok... well, surely there are more things than DPS.. right? Well, sure, up until mod 7 came out, AC was pretty comparable across the board between named and not. Mid dex evasion tanks used the KDS, but really, there wasn't much difference between that and a +5 mithral breastplate. +5 MFP still ruled the roost, even after a named +5 MFP was added to the loot tables.

Oh.. but that went away with the Icy Rainments. It seems like they released the IR as a test to see whether or not it would break random loot. And it did, and so dragontouched armors come along. And they start adding effects that you could only dream of getting in a random chest. +5 MFP (with less dex needed) with GFL, +4 insight bonus, and +5 resistance.

Seriously guys?

Now... I know you guys are thinking that I'm saying the loot is too powerful. Nope, not really. It's basically fine the way it is.

The problem is that the loot tables haven't changed in 2 years. They're still pumping out the same stuff they did when the lvl cap was 10. 2 years, and what do we have to show for random effects? Righteousness, bodyfeeder, transmuting? Maybe a couple others?

I kinda realized this problem this week when I'm running the new quests on elite. Lvl 19 chests, and I'm completely and utterly unexcited about them. I even skipped a few because I didn't want to walk for 20 seconds over to where my party was looting it. Because... what in the world could there be in that chest worth walking 20 seconds for?

WoP rapier? Sure... this still remains the only possible good item to pull from a chest. But with the odds of pulling one somewhere around the odds of winning the lottery.... eventually you just gotta stop buying tickets. A +2 tome? Yeah, those are fun, but the irony is that people mainly want them to twink new characters. +2 tomes aren't useful for the VAST majority of 'characters' that pull them.

Where's the lightning strike in the tables? Where is the +4 dodge on armor in the tables? Where's the absorbing beholders beams, negative energy protection, blood rage, madstone rage, +2 luck bonuses, +2 competance bonus to hit, GFL and resist 5 on the same item... hell... just resist 5 on an item?

How can I get a higher base damage die combined with transmuting, or maybe a disintigration beam, greater disruption, melodic guard, air guard, earth grab guard, better criticals like the SoS, or Deathnip?

Seriously? When are you going to change the loot tables so that there's something that someone would want.

I'm sick to death of seeing what new combination of tendon slice and icy burst that I can get. Ooooh... Shocking of tendon slice 10%, haven't seen that one before.

1)

Ya gotta put new effects in the tables. I don't care how rare they are, but all these effects you're putting on shroud weaponry and named weaponry should have at least a chance of falling. Give me the option of finding some incredible +3 lightning strike greataxe.

2)

Min levels need to be evaluated. The minimum level system is completely broken when it's ignored by virtually every named item in the game. How the hell can dragontouched armor have +4 insight AC, +5 resist, GFL, all on +5 full plate with added protection, but I can't even find a +5 Full plate of resist 3 in the random tables?

I'm not saying crafted, or named items shouldn't be better... but the discrepancy is utterly baffling.

3)

Just make me want to open a chest again that doesn't have the option of pulling an Icy Rainment out of it.

Crarites
11-03-2008, 04:22 PM
Because... what in the world could there be in that chest worth walking 20 seconds for?
.


The whole post was worth it to read just that one line. :D

Edit: not sure i'm fond of the idea of raid equivalent loot falling from chests either though.

Beherit_Baphomar
11-03-2008, 04:25 PM
Absolutely, 100% agree with this post.

Loot has become watered down, not only by the Shroud weapons, but by useless junk like parrying and tendon slice.

I have two reasons to loot any chest now. 1 is to get gold to buy ingredients or twink items for lowbee's or for that chance at a w/p rapier.

If its not a w/p melee weapon its sold to the House D vendor. I dont even bother with the AH any more. I look for w/p rapiers and thats it. Maybe some twink items. Hell, I couldnt tell you the last time I looked for armour or a ring or a hat or a greataxe.

The random loot tables are absolute junk, end of discussion. I understand Turbine wanted to dilute them, I understand lifeshield and parrying and those rediculous shields were put in to lessen the chance at vorpals or banishing rapiers but with The Shroud and items like Icey Rainments the random loot tables hold nothing of interest to anyone anymore. Dont get me wrong, Im not asking for the tables to be less diluted than they are now. Dilute them all you want, but there is ONE item people look for out of random loot. Nothing else is worth anything anymore.

This is also a reason, I believe, that endgame players only run raids. They have loot in mind for their guys and they are gonna get it.

Random loot needs a complete overhaul.

ArkoHighStar
11-03-2008, 04:26 PM
/signed

it is the reason nobody runs the vale quest, because unless you are looknig for +2 tomes or are flagging, there is n o reason to go after random loot anymore. With mod 3 and 4 even with nice named loot, you could still pull a really nice random

secondchance
11-03-2008, 04:33 PM
I think the op has a very good post , some fine points, and I totaly understand and even agree w/ some of them .... problem here is new effects also means new graphics and we've been told in the past this is a sticky point for this dev team and the budget they have.

I loot chest for stuff to sell and the off chance I'll pull
1.WOP raiper
2. +5 MFP or +5 MBP that looks cool
3. archmagi item
5.Gtr False life item on a ring
6.+6 con rings
7. +5 Pro Rings
8. +2 tomes
9. grids
10. cool smiters (rapier or scimy's)
11. Cool vorps (w/ shattlemantle or something nice)
12 ghost touch disruptors

that;s about it

I too would like to see more "better" loot but honestly I'd ratehr see new content, raids, and better named loot first

Giantsbane
11-03-2008, 04:34 PM
/signed

Lorichie
11-03-2008, 04:36 PM
This is why i reroll. A lot. I'm of a different mindset, and its by personal choice. I dont want to raid. I dont raid. I think i've completed ten raids in almost three years.

I dont want to be bored. I dont want to have nothing to do. I dont want to be like all those other folks who spend every day, all day raiding just for that one last item they need, just to find that when it comes down to it, they are bored out of their minds. That being said, i'll be honest, i find myself the last week or so, not wanting to reroll either.

So, now a choice. I play a lot, i'm very fortunate that i can. Should i decide to raid, it will be hard and heavy with me reactivating my other accounts. It'll be all day, every day, endlessly. 18-20 hours a day till i throw up. That's what would happen if i didnt reroll. How long till i cant do that any more?

There's a lot of content i have yet to do, simply because i chose not to. Enough to keep me busy should i decide to change how i feel about raiding, it's why i didnt do it in the first place.

After this long, verbose wall of text, the point is: there is nothing i need, cept for a couple items, tomes and raid loot. What do i do when i have all that, which quite honestly really wont take long to acquire.

I dont want to be left without anything to do. I just simply enjoy this game too much. Give me another choice, even if its the aforementioned uber loot in the OP. I dont want it, i dont need it, i dont even like the idea behind doing it really, but i do like the option of having it there.

R

gfunk
11-03-2008, 04:39 PM
I hear ya... my expectations for loot drops have been steadily going down. Maybe its just my perspective, but it seems that it's just a bunch of weird junk that falls now. .. e.g. fire guard +2 studded leather of greater vendor trash... I mean does anyone use some of those things? It seems that alot of things drop that could have no use to anyone, which just seems wrong. Not that I see a way around it... random chest loot just isn't going to compare with shroud crafted gear, and named raid loot (generally, with some minor exceptions like icy raiments and spectral gloves).

bobbryan2
11-03-2008, 04:49 PM
Edit: not sure i'm fond of the idea of raid equivalent loot falling from chests either though.

It's less of an issue with raid equivalent loot, and more of an issue of current weapon enhancements.

What's a good weapon? Lightning strike? +5 transmuting with acid, holy, and greater hit die? Disintigrate?

None of those are available in the random loot tables. Instead we have shocking, transmuting, and vicious.

the devs understand the loot choices posibvely suck. That's why they don't even use them. If they make a new weapon, they cheat, and use 15 enhancements we could never pull on our own.

Good luck getting greater arcane lore on a robe, or spell pen, or insight AC bonus greater than 1.

Being able to pull a +3 lightning strike greataxe is NOT raid equivalent loot. It's still not a +5 shocking, good burst, +4 ac, lighting strike, chain lighting, and still has a bigger base damage die...

It's just being able to pull weapon effects that don't completely suck.

Vorn
11-03-2008, 04:52 PM
I cannot recall the last time I kept a random item from a chest--but I've not pulled any WoP or banishing rapiers.

I love the named items, even the silly ones. My 'evil' cleric has every 'taint of evil' item in the game...I'm not sure why, she's just that way.:eek:

It's probably too late for the vale and this mod, which are focused on token collection for turn in, but in future mods, please, please think about unique named items in the explorer and quest chests and more interesting random loot as well as raid loot and/or customizable things--like SHIELDS.

Kintro
11-03-2008, 04:57 PM
Very interesting post. Maybe if it were possible to pull a +5 Holy/Element, Good/Element Burst, Good/Element Blast weapon without the additional transmuting/strike/wave type effects? That would close the gap somewhat and combined with the slim odds of getting a great combination would keep the crafted raid loot better.

Auran82
11-03-2008, 06:25 PM
My personal opinion on how to make chest loot more attractive.

We need a level of loot between random normal magical items and named/raid items. Sorta like the 'rare' items in Diablo II.

Maybe allow them to have special enchantments on them (lightning strike, banishing with higher DC or something like that) or allow them to have 2 prefixes and a suffix.

Probably still limit the enchantments to how it is now, but it would allow for more combinations and possibly interesting combos. Also means you get a cool 'special' item when you open the chest which people will check out to see what it is.

Though, who knows what we will be able to do when/if they implement full crafting.

Redd
11-03-2008, 06:46 PM
/signed

RobbinB
11-03-2008, 06:49 PM
Its definitely high-time for elemental (and good/evil) blast weapons as well as superior banes.

As for armor and shields, they need to make a single effect more common than two watered-down effects. For example, a +5 greater ice guard mithral chain shirt would be much better than a +3 lesser ice guard mithral chain shirt of protection +3.

Maybe two-handed weapons could have a greater capacity to hold magical properties (reduced equivalent ml) and possibly have an extra suffix/prefix?

sirgog
11-03-2008, 06:55 PM
My personal opinion on how to make chest loot more attractive.

We need a level of loot between random normal magical items and named/raid items. Sorta like the 'rare' items in Diablo II.

Maybe allow them to have special enchantments on them (lightning strike, banishing with higher DC or something like that) or allow them to have 2 prefixes and a suffix.

Probably still limit the enchantments to how it is now, but it would allow for more combinations and possibly interesting combos. Also means you get a cool 'special' item when you open the chest which people will check out to see what it is.

Though, who knows what we will be able to do when/if they implement full crafting.



Excellent idea (apart from tbe semi-implied 'wait for crafting').

On the current loot tables, really I'm only interested in combinations of the following:

Weapons: WoP on any melee weapon, +3 or better WoP bow, Weak/Enf kukri/rapier/scimitar, Holy Silver of GEOB, Holy BSilver of GLOB, +3 or better Flaming of Greater Giant Bane. +2 or better Flaming Burst of Greater Giant Bane. Holy Silver of Backstab +5, +3 or better Transmuting of GLOB/GEOB. And on acquisition of the Tharne's Goggles on my melee toons, I'm no longer after the Holy Silver of Backstab 5 items.

Shields: MAybe, just maybe, +5 deathblock (RR, ML 16) but even then I don't care much.

Armor: +5 mith FP or BP of Deathblock (RR, ML 16)

Ring: +6 Con of Shield 3-5/day is the nuts, any +6 stat of Shield 3/day is uber (esp. Dex or Wis), +6 Con, then just to sell it on the AH, I'll take +6 to any other stat. Oh, and +15 Intim is some good - even +13 sells for quite a bit. Greater False Life or Protection +5 with a useful kicker is uber, GFL/Prot5 with chaff is still worth something. Archmagi (RR, ML 15) is worth something too.

Amulet: Never mind pulling a +6 Con one, that's an easy 50k PP. Nothing lese good (nuts is of course Con +6 Shield 3-5/day)

Bracers: +8 AC Bracers remain uber. +7 ones still sell for a lot. 'Clean' +6 ones (i.e. ML 13) are nice to pull for resale too. Only other things I even care to AH are +6 Str (esp. RR ML 11 ones).

Boots: +30 Striders and +6 Dex go to AH, everything else goes to vendor. +30 Striders of Invis 3-5/day is the nuts here.

Goggles: +15 of any Trapsmithing skill is worth something but not much

I could continue, but in general I find - 1 chest in 200 has an item I'm really happy to see. 1 chest in 5 has an item I can sell on the AH, and the other 79.5% get fed to the vendors.

Deadz
11-03-2008, 07:18 PM
Excellent idea (apart from tbe semi-implied 'wait for crafting').




I could continue, but in general I find - 1 chest in 200 has an item I'm really happy to see. 1 chest in 5 has an item I can sell on the AH, and the other 79.5% get fed to the vendors.

This is where you derail the thread in my noob (for ddo) but vet (for mmo's) in my OPINION please don't flame me as if i'm speaking fact... (for got the if there pre-edit oops)

But 1 in 5 odds on these chests of getting something worth selling on the AH is "good odds" in most mmo's your either rolling for the maybe one good item that drops from a chest, and are rolling against ~5 people... it's not that gear is totally broke, it's that there is just too much.. the rates are Too high.. as a "new player" i drop alot of **** i find on the vendor, 60g (simple healing pot price), we'll.. that's alot of freakin' money in Dungeon's and dragon's , yet 60g is NOTHING in DDo.. the problem is balancing people who want to be rewarded vs not flooding the market.. Which way do the majority of the vets feel this battle has gone?

Deadz
11-03-2008, 07:20 PM
Let me add one more thing (puts on flame retardant suit)

This is what happens when everyone gets to be Drizz't....

Noctus
11-03-2008, 07:29 PM
/signed.

There needs to be a middle ground between raid/crafting loot and randem chest drops at cap. The excitement of opening a chest is mainly gone. Mostly it just checking if it is a+2 tome or on of three über-combos on weapons.

Xithos
11-03-2008, 07:56 PM
Great summation of the problem with general loot in the game. Chests just aren't that exciting for a lot of us and that is too bad.

Amabel
11-03-2008, 08:15 PM
Time for a server wipe.

"You wake up in an unfamiliar place."

This is Monty Haul folks. Every D&D campaign where the DM breaks the loot tables gets boring fast.

Turbine's answer is not to fix random loot, it's to put in EVEN MORE UBER static loot that requires a MASSIVE GRIND to get. Greensteel was the biggest cop out ever. In fact, all crafting pretty much sucks and is designed only as a time sink. But it's working. It keeps the hampsters on the treadmill. Hell, I hate it and I've probably got 200 Shroud completions.

What they don't seem to realise is that we're all hampsters and would grind for even marginally better loot anyway. There wasn't a need to completely kill it with greensteel and dragon touched armour. But there we are. In 3 months it'll be de rigueur and we'll all be grinding the next uber thing.

Get ready for blanket immunities on all mobs around mod 11 I'd say.

Aeneas
11-03-2008, 08:27 PM
If they took away the artificial ceiling of +6 I know i'd still be excited to try for a set of +8 or +9 dex boots at this stage in the game.

Turial
11-03-2008, 08:50 PM
Stuff that would be neat to see in the random tables:

Acidic Blast

On command, an acidic blast weapon drips acid (though this deals no damage to the wielder). On any hit, this acid splashes the creature struck, dealing +3d6 points of bonus acid damage. On a successful critical hit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) it instead deals +6d6 points of acid damage (or +9d6 if the critical multiplier is ×3, or +12d6 if the critical multiplier is ×4). Bows, crossbows, and slings with this special ability bestow the bonus acid damage upon their ammunition.
Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), acid fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidFog.htm); Market Price: +6 bonus.
Anarchic Power

This weapon is chaos-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction). When a weapon of anarchic power strikes a lawful target, this power deals +3d6 points of bonus chaotic damage to the target, and the target gains one negative level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) (Fortitude DC 23 to remove 24 hours later). On a successful critical hit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) it instead deals +6d6 points of chaotic damage and bestows two negative levels (or +9d6 and three negative levels if the critical multiplier is ×3, or +12d6 and four negative levels if the critical multiplier is ×4). The weapon bestows three negative levels on any lawful creature attempting to wield it. These negative levels remain as long as the weapon is in hand and disappear when the weapon is no longer wielded. These negative levels never result in actual level loss (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#levelLoss), but they cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings with this special ability bestow the anarchic power upon their ammunition. This special ability does not stack with the nonepic anarchic special ability.
Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), word of chaos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wordOfChaos.htm); Market Price: +8 bonus.
Axiomatic Power

This weapon is lawful-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damager reduction. When a weapon of axiomatic power strikes a chaotic target, this power erupts forth and deals +3d6 points of bonus lawful damage to the target, and the target gains one negative level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) (Fortitude DC 23 to remove 24 hours later). On a successful critical hit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) it instead deals +6d6 points of lawful damage and bestows two negative levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) (or +9d6 and three negative levels if the critical multiplier is ×3, or +12d6 and four negative levels if the critical multiplier is ×4). The weapon bestows three negative levels on any chaotic creature attempting to wield it. These negative levels remain as long as the weapon is in hand and disappear when the weapon is no longer wielded. These negative levels never result in actual level loss (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#levelLoss), but they cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings with this special ability bestow the lawful power upon their ammunition. This special ability does not stack with the nonepic axiomatic special ability.
Caster Level: 23rd; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), dictum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dictum.htm); Market Price: +8 bonus.
Distant Shot

A distant shot weapon can be used against any target within line of sight at no penalty for range.
Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), discern location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm); Market Price: +6 bonus.
Dread

A dread weapon excels at attacking one type of creature. Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus) is +4 better than its normal enhancement bonus. Further, it deals +4d6 points of bonus damage against the foe, and if it scores a successful critical hit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) against the foe, that creature must make a Fortitude save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#fortitude) (DC 27) or be destroyed instantly and turned to dust. (This even affects creatures immune to critical hits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) or death magic.) To randomly determine a dread weapon’s designated foe, roll on the following table.
Caster Level: 22nd; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), summon monster IX (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterIX.htm); Market Price: +7 bonus.




Everdancing

An everdancing weapon is much like a dancing weapon, though it can be loosed with a free action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions) and will fight as long as desired. It can move up to 60 feet away from its owner. Its owner can instruct it to move to a different target as a move-equivalent action. If its owner is rendered unconscious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#unconscious) or otherwise unable to direct it, it will fight the same opponent as long as that opponent is conscious and within range. The owner of an everdancing weapon can grasp it again as a free action (assuming it is within reach).
Caster Level: 23rd; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), animate objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateObjects.htm); Market Price: +8 bonus.
Fiery Blast

On command, a fiery blast weapon is sheathed in fire (though this deals no damage to the wielder). On any hit, this fire engulfs the creature struck, dealing +3d6 points of bonus fire damage. On a successful critical hit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) it instead deals +6d6 points of fire damage (or +9d6 if the critical multiplier is ×3, or +12d6 if the critical multiplier is ×4). Bows, crossbows, and slings with this special ability bestow the bonus fire damage upon their ammunition.
Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm); Market Price: +6 bonus.
Holy Power

This weapon is good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damager reduction. When a weapon of holy power strikes an evil target, this power erupts forth and deals +3d6 points of bonus holy (good) damage to the target, and the target gains one negative level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) (Fortitude DC 23 to remove 24 hours later). On a successful critical hit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) it instead deals +6d6 points of holy (good) damage and bestows two negative levels (or +9d6 and three negative levels if the critical multiplier is ×3, or +12d6 and four negative levels if the critical multiplier is ×4). The weapon bestows three negative levels on any evil creature attempting to wield it. These negative levels remain as long as the weapon is in hand and disappear when the weapon is no longer wielded. These negative levels never result in actual level loss (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#levelLoss), but they cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings with this special ability bestow the holy power upon their ammunition. This special ability does not stack with the nonepic holy special ability.
Caster Level: 23rd; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), holy word (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm); Market Price: +8 bonus.
Icy Blast

On command, an icy blast weapon is sheathed in icy cold (though this deals no damage to the wielder). On any hit, this cold washes over the creature struck, dealing +3d6 points of bonus cold damage. On a successful critical hit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) it instead deals +6d6 points of cold damage (or +9d6 if the critical multiplier is ×3, or +12d6 if the critical multiplier is ×4). Bows, crossbows, and slings with this special ability bestow the bonus cold damage upon their ammunition.
Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), cone of cold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/coneOfCold.htm); Market Price: +6 bonus.
Lightning Blast

On command, a lightning blast weapon crackles with electrical energy (though this deals no damage to the wielder). On any hit, lightning coruscates around the creature struck, dealing +3d6 points of bonus electricity damage. On a successful critical hit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) it instead deals +6d6 points of electricity damage (or +9d6 if the critical multiplier is ×3, or +12d6 if the critical multiplier is ×4). Bows, crossbows, and slings with this special ability bestow the bonus electricity damage upon their ammunition.
Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), lightning bolt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/lightningBolt.htm); Market Price: +6 bonus.
Mighty Disruption

Any undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) creature struck in combat must succeed at a Fortitude save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#fortitude) (DC 21) or be destroyed. A weapon of mighty disruption must be a bludgeoning weapon. (If this property is rolled for a piercing or slashing weapon, reroll.)
Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), true resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm); Market Price: +6 bonus.
Sonic Blast

On command, a sonic blast weapon emits a low thrumming hum (though this deals no damage to the wielder). On any hit, this becomes a thunderous roar that deals +3d6 points of bonus sonic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#sonicAttacks) damage to the creature struck. On a successful critical hit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) it instead deals +6d6 points of sonic damage (or +9d6 if the critical multiplier is ×3, or +12d6 if the critical multiplier is ×4). Bows, crossbows, and slings with this special ability bestow the bonus sonic damage upon their ammunition.
Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), shout (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shout.htm); Market Price: +6 bonus.
Triple-Throw

This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. (If this property is rolled for a weapon that cannot be thrown, reroll.) A triple-throw weapon creates two duplicates of itself when thrown. Both the original and the duplicate weapons attack separately (at the same attack bonus). Regardless of the success of any of the attacks, the duplicates immediately disappear after the attack is completed. Any bonuses on damage due to accuracy or precision (including those from sneak attacks, the Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#preciseShot) feat, or the ranger’s (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm) favored enemy bonus) apply only to the original weapon’s damage, not to the duplicates.
Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), shades (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shades.htm); Market Price: +6 bonus.
Unerring Accuracy

Ranged attacks made with this weapon negate the AC bonus granted by any cover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover) short of total cover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalCover). The weapon’s ranged attacks also ignore any miss chance from concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment) (including total concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalConcealment), but the wielder must still aim his or her attacks at the correct square).
Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), true seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm); Market Price: +6 bonus.
Unholy Power

This weapon is evil-aligned and this bypasses the corresponding damage reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction). When a weapon of unholy power strikes a good target, this power erupts forth and deals +3d6 points of bonus unholy (evil) damage to the target, and the target gains one negative level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) (Fortitude DC 23 to remove 24 hours later). On a successful critical hit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) it instead deals +6d6 points of unholy (evil) damage and bestows two negative levels (or +9d6 and three negative levels if the critical multiplier is ×3, or +12d6 and four negative levels if the critical multiplier is ×4).
The weapon bestows three negative levels on any good creature attempting to wield it. These negative levels remain as long as the weapon is in hand and disappear when the weapon is no longer wielded. These negative levels never result in actual level loss (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#levelLoss), but they cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings with this special ability bestow the unholy power upon their ammunition. This special ability does not stack with the nonepic unholy special ability.
Caster Level: 23rd; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#craftEpicMagicArmsAndArmor), unholy word; Market Price: +8 bonus.

Ringos
11-03-2008, 09:50 PM
I too agree with the premise of this post.

Rog
11-04-2008, 12:19 AM
only reason i luv to open the elite chest is the hopes that i get 128 or 160k loot that i can send to my bard and make good use of his haggle skill at a 69 haggle i can make a 100k in a day but thats about it mybe a +8 armor braces but that will come in time i like having endless suppy of plat to spend at the aH. I bet the newbs that shop at house d for there loot like i used to enjoy seeing the vorpals,smiters,disputer that i drop in house d vendor all the time becouse to me it not worth muling anymore and mybe it drive that plat farmers out. point really rare loot is what we live for and will ransack a chest for over and over again do yourself a favor and make it happen.
lunarsong

Naso24
11-04-2008, 01:04 AM
Hence why people still grind for bloodstones, cursed crypt loot, and other specific chests. The random stuff is mostly garbage. Some effects should be removed from the game since nobody ever wants or uses them. Presumably, somebody had to make the magic items. Why in the world would they put some of the weak effects on items or even detrimental ones like vicious?

Uska
11-04-2008, 01:41 AM
Umm some of us really dont have time to do the shroud or the stuff needed to get DT armor and like some of the loot from the chests, we have enough item elevation from the shroud and the new armor we dont need it from the other chests to.

VirieSquichie
11-04-2008, 11:26 AM
The inclusion of random prefixes and suffixes that very very few people care about has rendered a higher percentage of items into vendor trash than we used to have. Bodyfeeder? Please. Byeshk? WHY?!?!?!

To be fair, you're all talking about a small subset of named loot. There is quite a bit of named loot that very few characters would want. Each raid has a few items that are much sought after, and several that people say "meh" to and offer to whoever's nearby.

Culling out the prefixes and suffixes that no longer have meaning would go a long way towards improving random loot. Limiting certain prefixes and suffixes (umm, arrows/daggers/sickles of lesser ooze bane?) to meaningful/useful combinations would help. Making damage a viable contender to instakill would help, though I have difficulty imagining how that can be achieved with today's insanely inflated monsters. People want vorpals because it's annoying to hack at a monster for the next 60 seconds, only to look down the hallway at a seemingly endless queue of waiting monsters...

And I agree with those who say the greensteel recipies made for far too powerful combinations. That should be, if even possible, level 20+ gear by the time it reaches Tier III. Turbine has opened a Pandora's Box here and short of completely reworking Shroud crafting (which would make many people mad enough to quit) they really can't recover from it. So they forge ahead with Dragontouched, figuring it's the only direction available to them any more.

Zenako
11-04-2008, 12:07 PM
The opinion about the merit / value of current loot in chests really depends on how you are playing.

IF you are the type who has played a lot, has copious good items that you give to each character as they need them (aka twinking), then the odds of finding almost anything usefull in any given chest is vanishingly small for that character.

IF you are the type of player who has only one or two characters, and has virtually no twinking prospects (outside of buying plat and AH avenues), then the number of times you find nice things that are better than what you have will be a LOT higher and I suspect the level of satisfaction would be a lot higher.

In the D&D source material, the value of "random" loot was somewhat capped. To get better things that what you could roll up required you to go to the Artifact tables and a handful of examples were given in the DMG. Those artifacts are defacto what you get when you craft items in the Shroud. Artifacts came in various grades of power as well, with current Shroud items being around the middle tier in my opinion.

All creating more and more powerful item drops does is further slide the power curve down the levels a bit more. Had the original game design had all loot bind, I would suspect people would still be looking for quite a few items for their builds, but with the vast majority of gear being tradeable, that is not the case.

Mindspat
11-04-2008, 12:13 PM
Well said!

One thing I would like to see is a little more diversity without adding items that makes the game even more of a "dps" thing then its already become. Arcane users have some of the worst potential to pull applicable loot since there's only a sliver of effects which apply to them.

I would also like to see Oil Flasks drop which could be used as a Fire DoT. Can these be created and added to the loot tables, or is it simply a problem with having to create a Throwing Animation for each race?

What about armor and robes with spell foci or other effects? I would love to get a +5 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt of Transmutation. Come on, that would rock!

In fairness, the collectible system for rewards does in fact provide what we're seeking even if the developers might overlook some of our creativity. ;)


The opinion about the merit / value of current loot in chests really depends on how you are playing.

IF you are the type of player who has only one or two characters, and has virtually no twinking prospects (outside of buying plat and AH avenues), then the number of times you find nice things that are better than what you have will be a LOT higher and I suspect the level of satisfaction would be a lot higher.

Had the original game design had all loot bind, I would suspect people would still be looking for quite a few items for their builds, but with the vast majority of gear being tradeable, that is not the case.

In my experiance it's the oposite. Playing a single character means I've focused my game play on its performance and have sought out every possible item which enhances the strenghts of the character's build. Honestly, there really isn't much to it other then raid items.

I disagree with the Bind Loot option other then as rewards from raids and to secure a function of an upgrade. There just needs to be more diverse uptions to upgrade your items beyond the static "weapon should recieve melee dmg modifiers" since a caster still uses a wide assortment of them with spell enhancements.

spyderwolf
11-04-2008, 12:13 PM
lol to hear some people bash the rainments youd think every toon on the server was a dex monk or ranger. and really who cares? get your loot and be happy or get your loot and quit :)

Bogenbroom
11-04-2008, 12:59 PM
I'd agree that it is time for some new blood in the loot tables. Both in terms of higher end loot and lower.

Some of that could be scaling of existing effects (bane) or the proliferation of some minimally used effects (slaying.) Some could be on hit effects of lesser used spells. (Ghoul touch, inflict wounds.)

I also think some consideration could be given to spreading the on-impact type item traits (fearsome, guard) to both include other items, like cloaks and such (maybe with a percentage chance to take effect based on the item type) and effect types. Trip (command) and Daze come to mind as interesting.

Also, greater effects on a critical miss, something we don't use much in DDO. How about a chance to FTS on a critical miss or Charm.

Lastly, AoE effects on both Offensive and Defensive items. Sleep, Undeath to Death, Soundburst, etc.)

I believe those sorts of things would greatly increase the interest in loot without creating any more real power. Slaying, yes, that would... but make it so you can only have one slaying item in inventory at a time. But how cool would it be to have a Bow of Otto's or Shield of Shout?

DoctorWhofan
11-04-2008, 01:04 PM
This is why i reroll. A lot. I'm of a different mindset, and its by personal choice. I dont want to raid. I dont raid. I think i've completed ten raids in almost three years.

I dont want to be bored. I dont want to have nothing to do. I dont want to be like all those other folks who spend every day, all day raiding just for that one last item they need, just to find that when it comes down to it, they are bored out of their minds. That being said, i'll be honest, i find myself the last week or so, not wanting to reroll either.

So, now a choice. I play a lot, i'm very fortunate that i can. Should i decide to raid, it will be hard and heavy with me reactivating my other accounts. It'll be all day, every day, endlessly. 18-20 hours a day till i throw up. That's what would happen if i didnt reroll. How long till i cant do that any more?

There's a lot of content i have yet to do, simply because i chose not to. Enough to keep me busy should i decide to change how i feel about raiding, it's why i didnt do it in the first place.

After this long, verbose wall of text, the point is: there is nothing i need, cept for a couple items, tomes and raid loot. What do i do when i have all that, which quite honestly really wont take long to acquire.

I dont want to be left without anything to do. I just simply enjoy this game too much. Give me another choice, even if its the aforementioned uber loot in the OP. I dont want it, i dont need it, i dont even like the idea behind doing it really, but i do like the option of having it there.

R

Agreed. Maybe not to that extreme, but the thought is the same. Loot is fine. Then again I don't have anything but greensteel goggles and one shroud comp[letion under my belt, so what do I know?

bobbryan2
11-04-2008, 01:07 PM
Culling out the prefixes and suffixes that no longer have meaning would go a long way towards improving random loot. Limiting certain prefixes and suffixes (umm, arrows/daggers/sickles of lesser ooze bane?) to meaningful/useful combinations would help.

I'm not going to deny that this is indeed a problem, but it's a completely seperate one from the one I was initially raising. I would absolutely love if all the bodyfeeder, vicious, tendon slice and shatter effects left. But ultimately that's not what I'm talking about.

It's not that the 'right' combinations are too rare; rather, it's that the 'right' combinations are impossible. The ceiling for random loot is so pitifully low, that there is literally a zero percent chance of pulling a good DPS item. There is zero chance of pulling a max AC armor that also has resitances and GFL on it. Zero, nada, nothing. Removing all those annoying effects would still leave the chances at zero.

Devs know that all the effects suck, and that's why EVERYTIME they make a cool new item, it uses effects that would be impossible to get with random loot tables. I mean... when's the last time someone farmed the Abbot preraid to get the dragon sword of acid. Sure it falls into that, 'that's sorta cool' category, and you probably wouldn't just sell it to the vendor... but I can't think of too many people that would want it. And why? Because it's mostly a weapon that could be made from the random loot tables with the exception of acid burst.

I really see no problems with adding the vast majority of weapon effects that are currently in this game into the random loot tables. Lightning strike, disintigration, +4 insight, greater disruption, intercession ward, negative levels on crits, etc.. The very fact that shroud items can get these effects and four or more others is more than enough motivation to keep running them.

Paladin20
11-05-2008, 07:00 AM
I've had this same sentiment ever since the first Shroud weapons were unveiled. The OP makes a great argument and he's nailed pretty much every point. For those of us old enough in the game, we do recall seeing +2 Tomes out of the last part of Co6 as well as Tempest Spine. Heck I even remember seeing a +3 Tome drop out of TS back in Mod 1. I pulled my first WoP (a heavy repeater) out of Threnal South 3 and gave it to a good friend of mine. Not only was that not as valuable in my eyes back then because there was so much other interesting loot that dropped out of chests that were useful (+3 Bursting of PG Slashers used to own!), but there were very few builds that could use it.

While I disagree that a WoP Rapier/Dagger/SS is the only thing that is sought after/desired in chests nowadays, there are indeed very few items or special combinations that would make us break a smile. Things like Greater Construct Bane, Holy/GT of Disruption/Gr Undead Bane, Cursespewing Smiting/Disruption, Banishing Rapiers of PG/Shattermantle/Puncturing, Raid Boss Beaters, that really really impossible to get RR +5 Resistance Item or +8 Armor Bracers, and a few others. Everything else of value is either a named or raid item. You pretty much can't design your gear scheme without including at least 4-5 pieces of Raid/high-end named loot. I also agree that rare named loot and raid loot should be superior, but the disparity is indeed jaw-dropping. I mean, it's been an ongoing and exacerbating issue for quite a few modules now, and seemingly ignored as if on purpose so that there is ever increasing grind to keep people in the game even after their 500th time running the same stuff over.

As for Turial's suggestion that wouldn't be bad at all since we've had epic level loot in this game since the Titan Belt, as well as the same Epic damage effects from Shroud weapons. I mean, it's an MMO and sooner or later they will continue to escalate things way beyond your tabletop game. It certainly would not and could not screw up the economy worse than what it already is, while at the same time giving the casual gamers who don't run raids 20x/week a chance to amass some wealth and gather useful things to keep their characters happy.

tihocan
11-05-2008, 11:23 AM
I have to agree with OP. When I open a chest I'm still a bit excited because I'm hoping I get something I can sell for some cash (that I still need...). But I'm never thinking what I'm going to see is something I may use myself... (except for raid loot / ingredients).

adam1oftheround
11-08-2008, 09:11 PM
Having pulled gems out of my last 4 raid chests I would have to agree that the loot tables need some revision. The in demand items should have a better chance of dropping while that true law bastard sword of lawful outsider bane should be banished along with the chaotic goblin bane.

dragonofsteel2
11-09-2008, 12:35 AM
Then came the Shroud, and it all went away. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing that you could ever possibly pull from a chest that will compare with shroud weaponry with regards to DPS. Nothing. In fact.. DPS totals really haven't increased at all in mods from random effects, because we peaked in Mod 4 with things like the +5 axiomatic greataxe of righteousness.

Wrong high + weapons with greater bane on them or still more damage then shroud weapons they or rare as hell yes, but they will still out damage shroud weapons. With the right things on them of course. Shroud weapons or just the lazy man weapons that hate changing freaking weapons for every new critter. They all around good damage that do not have to work on that much. Get a +5 holy greater bane it will out damage all shroud weapons as long has the right silver ect.. to bypass dr if possible. Although if any these weapons or pull with the rare part them never see them on the auction house, like my +3 holy burst silver greater dragon bane. I will never sell this weapon because it just to good. Also my +5 anarchic greater aberration bane greataxe, it will outdamge any shroud weapons against that mob. Guess what I will not sell it though.

Even though I do agree that loot out reg. chest does need a boost because the only loot out them right now is super rare, making no fun at all to even do loot runs.

Even before the shroud came out open chest to me was not that fun, because on the rare chance got something that was any good anyway.

I would like to see neat effects on chest loot drops might add reason to help people get there new armor for my main on the new dragon-touch stuff. As it is now there no freaking reason for him to run them quest because that armor will not replace the Icy Raiment. I really believe they should added at least +2 stackable dodge bonus so I could get the armor and have fun with it. But as it stands now it just hurts my ac to much to go after it. Also with the total randomize effects, this could be a real grind for some with bad loot luck. Also by adding better loot at of chest the grind for your armor or shroud gear would not seem as bad.Shroud weapons or good but they still not the ultimate weapons esp... with the hit points of some critters. Although would like to see them also add other places besides the shroud were can hunt ing. and cleansing items it just to boring running the same quest 200 times +++ now.

sephiroth1084
11-09-2008, 01:58 AM
The opinion about the merit / value of current loot in chests really depends on how you are playing.

IF you are the type who has played a lot, has copious good items that you give to each character as they need them (aka twinking), then the odds of finding almost anything usefull in any given chest is vanishingly small for that character.

IF you are the type of player who has only one or two characters, and has virtually no twinking prospects (outside of buying plat and AH avenues), then the number of times you find nice things that are better than what you have will be a LOT higher and I suspect the level of satisfaction would be a lot higher.



On my first character up to 1750 and lvl 15, nearly all of the useful gear I had was acquired through the AH. Not a lot at a time, but I'd sell all the junk I drew from chests to the appropriate brokers and eventually save up for a decent weapon or suit of armor. Sure, sometimes I'd get a random piece of loot that was worth keeping, but rarely.

Now that I've got more than one capped character, sure, I twink the hell out of my lowbies--they aren't drawing much that is useful from chests either.

Heck, most of the stuff I get doesn't even seem worth putting on the AH. I'm always curious as to where people are getting these +1 holy of greater X bane weapons, +5 holy burst of pure good, etc... Ever since Mod 8 has come out, between 1/4 and 1/2 of all my end-chest and end-list loot is something something of tendon slice. It's gotten to the point where I hardly glance at what a weapon does, simply checking for the highest base value and vendoring it.

Ollathir
11-09-2008, 02:06 AM
A lot of very good points and directions here. I definatly don't disagree that popping chests has lost alot of appeal. I would have thought that even the trash loot from a lvl 17 and up quest would be something...well...something.

So it took us two runs to get to the end of 'Prey of the Hunter' and save the Dragon. Someone talks to Dragon and we don't get a chance to fight him. Damn, no chance at the 3 super chests this time around. "Lets do it again so we can fight the Dragon! Cool!"
Run, run, run, make it through the maze finally...YES, saved the Dragon. Alright lets kill it. Whoa, theres 2 of them now a CR 32 and 33. Hack,hack,hack, FW, FW, Heal, Heal, "out of mana", hack, hack, (continue for about 5 minutes). Alright first one down.
After several more minutes of being knocked around, Cool killed em both. Lets go pop those chests. :).
"Hmmm, I got shafted, nothing good. What about you guys? What...what kind of scale...white? Umm, like for the new Dragontouched armor? Oh...like from Tor?"

bobbryan2
11-09-2008, 02:15 AM
At the end of the day, I just wonder if devs ever ask "why" players ask for the things they do?

The players asked for a teleport to meridia... so they gave one, and left off the refuge.

Every mod, players complain about there not being named loot, so they add named loot.

and so on, and so on.

Devs seem to fix the exact issue that players complain about, but never ask 'why' they complain about it...

People didn't run the vale because there was no named loot. People loved the desert because there was named loot. People didn't run Gianthold because there was no named loot. But people did run the Tor and the Abbot preraid... because of the named loot. People loved the named loot in the raids, and run them... but any quest that doesn't have named loot hasn't been run since BtG was looted (and I never even did that... I was always doing Wiz king... for the named loot).

Ultimately... somewhere in the last 18+ months... some dev somewhere should have asked, "Why is the named loot so desired in every single quest, in every single chest?"

And obviously the answer is because randomized loot sucks.

I'm just confuzzled.

noinfo
11-09-2008, 04:44 AM
Umm some of us really dont have time to do the shroud or the stuff needed to get DT armor and like some of the loot from the chests, we have enough item elevation from the shroud and the new armor we dont need it from the other chests to.

I dunno Uska, I think the point is that for those who don't have time to do the grind of the shroud throw them a bone and let them have something exciting that they might like to use. At the moment for DPS there is nothing that is going to match a Shroud weapon or come close or items for that matter. It should be inferior to Shroud weapons/ and armour but there should be something a little more maybe in terms of excitement. Greensteel and DT Armour already have an edge in that you can control what is going to be put on them. This already makes them superior to anything in game.

For me as a guide line I personally think that raid loot should be comparable to its level + about 4 in terms of chest value. Really if we are pulling it out of a level 12 raid chest we should be seeing something comparable out of a level 16 chest I think would be fair, maybe including some of those items from earlier raids maybe an option.

Maybe an alternative such as removing the watering down effects on high level chests would be an option. Remove some of the more "useless effects", but then who determines what they maybe?

noinfo
11-09-2008, 05:28 AM
I have finally worked out why there is so much random vendor trash loot in chests. It's because as you would expect those who carry that garbage into quests get killed and eaten and their equipment stolen [and put into chests], while those with the best gear survive gear intact :-p

EazyWeazy
11-10-2008, 10:45 AM
I was thinking over this topic and it reminded me of something that an experienced MMO gamer (this is my first MMO) told me a long time ago during loot runs in DQ1.

He said, "One of the things that really makes DDO fun for me is that I can pull cool stuff from any chest. I'm used to grinding for certain things, but over here, anything can be cool."

I've got an idea of what we can do to make this true again.

Add real crafting to existing weapons as well as putting the new effects into the loot tables. :)

Oh...you just pulled a +1 Maul of greater ooze bane that you're going to dump on the vendor? Well...bind it, and then craft the Everbright effect onto it. Make the ML increase with the added effect or something. Maybe limit it to one or two 'crafted' effects per weapon. Make it collectible based like the current alchemical rituals.

I'm sure this has been discussed before but at this point in the game...would it really be overpowered? Compared to Greensteel weapons? Make random loot fun again and useful.

Frodo_Lives
11-10-2008, 09:40 PM
When new content comes out, higher level quests or the level cap increases then naturally so does the upper limit on the powerful gear. With higher level chests, new named loot, new raid loot, it opens up a possibility of making your equipment better and therefore your character better to deal with the new and more powerful threats that exist in the new quests. As it should be.

However the Shroud is the first time that I saw a power jump of that magnitude. Greensteel is way too powerful compared to virtually anything in the game. I thought ok but you can only use one item at a time. But then it was discovered that you can "cleanse" your items and the grind continues. Not up until this point did I ever see any content put out where you will be severly penalized for not running the snot out of something compared to the potential benifits of grinding over and over and over. I never felt that there was any content I "had" to run or I was gimping myself. That is the way I feel about the Shroud.

Dragonscale armor was nice, but not game breaking. Named loot was pretty cool but never really provided anything but an additional +1 to whatever or some nice bonus compared to what you could loot anywhere.

I won't go so far as to say that crafting (shroud and now the new armor) has ruined all sense of balance and the feeling of maybe this chest I'll get something great... But it's come as close as you can without breaking the game.

I have always felt that crafting should be more about customization rather than power. If I wanted to craft a +6 Con item and put it on a cloak then I should have that option, although the crafting materials should be about as hard to find as a +6 Con item would be. Devotion on goggles, Acid guard on a helm, GFL on boots, whatever. Come up with combinations so you can utilize all your slots effeciently and configure your character the way you want. Craft crazy combinations, allow your creative juices to flow. But it still wouldn't be any more powerful than what you pull out of a chest (if you are lucky).

This allows people to take advantage of crafting and find some enjoyment out of it as well as some advantage from it. But it doesn't overly punish those that don't craft. High end chest loot is garbage, not because of the low % chance of pulling anything good but the near impossiblity of pulling anything at all that competes with GS.


I have had two friends quit this game because of Greensteel and the direction of Grind = Good. If you don't want to grind then you might as well do one of three things either A) Accept that you will not be anywhere near as useful as other members of the party and basically you have gimped yourself, B) don't bother playing any character over level 14, or C) quit.

PurdueDave
11-10-2008, 11:38 PM
I'm suddenly getting this incredible urge to go buy Warhammer.

GeneralDiomedes
11-10-2008, 11:59 PM
I'm suddenly getting this incredible urge to go buy Warhammer.

Just asking, why would you go from a PVE game with some of the most complex and well designed quests in existence, to a PVP game? If you are a PvP veteran and know what you like, fine .. but otherwise you are going to be disappointed.

If anything, you would go from DDO to LOTRO or WoW and play both if possible.

QuantumFX
11-11-2008, 12:16 AM
Bodyfeeder? Please.

Dual weild Bodyfeeder Rapiers of Puncturing before saying something as silly as what you posted above.

bobbryan2
11-11-2008, 01:57 AM
Just asking, why would you go from a PVE game with some of the most complex and well designed quests in existence, to a PVP game? If you are a PvP veteran and know what you like, fine .. but otherwise you are going to be disappointed.

Coming from a primarily PvE player, the PvP setup in Warhammer is extremely fun.

Not that that is remotely on topic... but I wouldn't say that all PvP is made the same.

Rindalathar
11-11-2008, 09:31 AM
Didn't read the whole thread, but I see people busting on tendon slice here. Sorry, but my rogue with a crippling of slowburst rapier in one hand and a cursespewing dagger of tendon slice 10% in my off-hand makes him a debuffing monster. Tendon slice 10% is a wonderful thing.

bobbryan2
11-11-2008, 11:19 AM
Didn't read the whole thread, but I see people busting on tendon slice here. Sorry, but my rogue with a crippling of slowburst rapier in one hand and a cursespewing dagger of tendon slice 10% in my off-hand makes him a debuffing monster. Tendon slice 10% is a wonderful thing.

Sorry, I'll just kill the guy instead of playing with it like a cat and mouse.

maddmatt70
11-11-2008, 01:23 PM
I know that Turbine is aware of the issue. People have posted on this same topic 6 months ago. Turbine's answer we will all receive when they raise the level cap up to 20. What will the chests' loot look like then? In my opinion we should be able to pull at least shroud and dragontouched equivalent weapons and armor heck if not better weapons and armor in level 22 quests (level 20 quests on elite). The new raids should have the best gear you can get in the game, but quests 4 levels higher should drop general loot equivalent or superior to the vast majority of the items in our current raids. Only exceptions is special items like FOM boots from the dragon, chattering ring from the titan, madstone boots from reaver, etc.

My guess is the shroud the exceptions will be hit point items, spell point items, skill items (cha skill for example), and perhaps a specific weapon type like radiance that can be found nowhere else. For VOD it will be the goggles and possible the tharne bracers if the set is cool, for hound the lorrik and levik's set items if the sets are cool, and the new dragontouched armor will just be a slot freer upper except if the sets are cool.

Deathseeker
11-11-2008, 02:05 PM
/Signed.

Totally agree. If loot running normal chests were more fun, it would help give more people stuff to do.

There are several different way to accomplish this as suggested (more effects, higher effects, reverse prefix/suffix sometimes, add multiple prefix/suffixes, make extremely rare drops of effects on non-conforming item like puncturing on a slasher, put shroud effects on items very rarely, etc, etc). All have pro's/con's...but the biggest question...

Why run any hard quest on Elite? If scaling the chests really doesnt give that much better a chance to get uber loot? Give us something to challenge ourselves for that isnt named loot!

Imagine if you could have a tiny, tiny chance to pull a +1 Holy Burst Good Blast Heavy Pick of Transmuting when running a level 19 quest!

VirieSquichie
11-11-2008, 04:36 PM
At the end of the day, I just wonder if devs ever ask "why" players ask for the things they do?

The players asked for a teleport to meridia... so they gave one, and left off the refuge.

Devs seem to fix the exact issue that players complain about, but never ask 'why' they complain about it...

People didn't run the vale because there was no named loot. People loved the desert because there was named loot. People didn't run Gianthold because there was no named loot. But people did run the Tor and the Abbot preraid... because of the named loot. People loved the named loot in the raids, and run them... but any quest that doesn't have named loot hasn't been run since BtG was looted (and I never even did that... I was always doing Wiz king... for the named loot).


I imagine that in 6 months or so there will be a teleport option to the Refuge. Notice how they don't supply one right away to new content, only once that content has gotten a bit stale? Desert. GT to Titan. Meridia. Refuge will get its day.

When the vale was new, and for six or so months afterward, I saw regular loot runs out there. Why? Two reasons, really...#1 you could do it with few people in a short amount of time - for many, solo was quite possible - and #2 the loot was comparable to GH quests on elite, for a lot less work. It still is. The thing that supplanted Vale loot runs was Shroud loot runs, once the tactics for that were figured out enough that even PUGs generally wouldn't have much trouble doing it. The explorer areas in the Refuge are the new Vale and will probably be looted consistently until the next Great Loot Run emerges. I've personally seen some great stuff pulled out of the Refuge areas already. If it weren't for ingredients, the Shroud would be a ghost town.

The main problem with random loot is that there are so many common combinations that are thoroughly worthless. The chances of getting something worth keeping are slight, and many vocal forum posters have no use for the plat they're already sitting on.

GlassCannon
11-12-2008, 07:17 AM
NO! No to the entire thread, no matter what is in it. I don't even want to look.

Insert random opinion here.

I will however note one observation as contribution: The new systems appear to be to some small degree balancing different levels of Casual gamer, but are by far elevating the potency of Powergamers. This game should be ridiculously easy for Powergamers, and challenging for the Casual gamer.

Then again most of the Casuals were run off by top level content designed for the most uber sets of gear possible... so nevermind, just delete everything and have a Relaunch.:eek:

Talon_Moonshadow
11-12-2008, 10:04 AM
The main problem I see is too many modifyers, thus making an item expensive ****.

For capped chars there is little that is really valuable.

If a shiled does not start with +5, it is useless IMO. Same with armor.
Gloves that grant +5 to a stat and +3 to a skill are not useless, but they are nearly useless as the +3 to skill only serves to drive the price and min lvl up.

Same with an oten that grants a +1 to a stat and a + something to a skill.
All theat +1 did was make it a less valuable item IMO.

The random loot needs to be less random. Less total number of effects on no weapons.

Weapon are slightly different.
A +1 wep with good traits is still vailuable.
But Power I or any other Power addidition should be removed from the loot tables IMO.
It's useless.


Also, exotic weps should be....welll...exotic....rare. Longswords whould be common.

RAPIERS should be common!

I'll give you dwarven axes, but all those bastard swronds, khopeshes, releaters, great crossbows...........should be rare!
I should see at least one longsword everytime I' offerend an end reward.

Also add race to the reward by class clickie.
My elven rogue should get weps that I am proficent in as a rogue and an elf.
And I should never see a dwarven axe if I'm not a dwarf IMO.

weyoun
11-12-2008, 12:44 PM
Agreed. Maybe not to that extreme, but the thought is the same. Loot is fine. Then again I don't have anything but greensteel goggles and one shroud comp[letion under my belt, so what do I know?

You need to come to the shroud more often sweets. Leave those noobs for an afternoon and come play with the big boys. We'll be gentle, promise.

I'll give you everything you need for tier I and II.

Riggs
11-16-2008, 05:26 AM
signed

There are wayyyy too many useless enhancements on weapons. And the min level for skill or secondary bonuses is silly high.

A +4 wisdom ring with +7 jump should NOT be a level 15 item. The second bonus shouldnt even add to the min level unless its equal to the main bonus. In fact instead of a .1% chance of JUST a single bonus on an item, it should be 10% or 30% at least - then at least a level 14-16 item will have some kind of use.

And the fact that it is about a 1 in 1000 chance to find a stat items with NO other bonuses is really grindy. No one who was ever paying a wizard to make an item would ever want a million +4 or +5 stat items with +5 to a useless skill on 999 out of 1000 items.

The loot is really obviously designed to require a LOT of grinding to find a single useful item.

A level 15-18 chest should drop something that at least has some chance of being useful to a level 14-16 character - not something that might be barely useful to a level 10 character...but since its min level 14 because of the shatter +4 on it...you cant use anyway til 14.

sirgog
11-16-2008, 05:52 AM
If they took away the artificial ceiling of +6 I know i'd still be excited to try for a set of +8 or +9 dex boots at this stage in the game.



In pen and paper, +8 and higher (PnP has only even plusses) items are considered epic and have a cost 10 times as high as the standard formula. So where Boots of Dex +6 have a base price of 36000 GP in PnP, Boots of Dex +8 have a base cost of 640000 GP.

I expect this will translate to a minimum level of 19 for +7 stat items, and 21 (19 if RR) for +8 stat items. They will be items to make random loot cool again - pity they are so far off.



When new content comes out, higher level quests or the level cap increases then naturally so does the upper limit on the powerful gear. With higher level chests, new named loot, new raid loot, it opens up a possibility of making your equipment better and therefore your character better to deal with the new and more powerful threats that exist in the new quests. As it should be.

However the Shroud is the first time that I saw a power jump of that magnitude. Greensteel is way too powerful compared to virtually anything in the game. I thought ok but you can only use one item at a time. But then it was discovered that you can "cleanse" your items and the grind continues. Not up until this point did I ever see any content put out where you will be severly penalized for not running the snot out of something compared to the potential benifits of grinding over and over and over. I never felt that there was any content I "had" to run or I was gimping myself. That is the way I feel about the Shroud.

Dragonscale armor was nice, but not game breaking. Named loot was pretty cool but never really provided anything but an additional +1 to whatever or some nice bonus compared to what you could loot anywhere.

I won't go so far as to say that crafting (shroud and now the new armor) has ruined all sense of balance and the feeling of maybe this chest I'll get something great... But it's come as close as you can without breaking the game.

I have always felt that crafting should be more about customization rather than power. If I wanted to craft a +6 Con item and put it on a cloak then I should have that option, although the crafting materials should be about as hard to find as a +6 Con item would be. Devotion on goggles, Acid guard on a helm, GFL on boots, whatever. Come up with combinations so you can utilize all your slots effeciently and configure your character the way you want. Craft crazy combinations, allow your creative juices to flow. But it still wouldn't be any more powerful than what you pull out of a chest (if you are lucky).

This allows people to take advantage of crafting and find some enjoyment out of it as well as some advantage from it. But it doesn't overly punish those that don't craft. High end chest loot is garbage, not because of the low % chance of pulling anything good but the near impossiblity of pulling anything at all that competes with GS.


I have had two friends quit this game because of Greensteel and the direction of Grind = Good. If you don't want to grind then you might as well do one of three things either A) Accept that you will not be anywhere near as useful as other members of the party and basically you have gimped yourself, B) don't bother playing any character over level 14, or C) quit.


IMO Greensteel items should have been done a little differently - the synergy bonuses should not have been as powerful as they are. If Mineral 2 only gave you Keen or Transmuting, not both plus Slicing, there'd still be an incentive to grind to Tier 3, and powergamers still would, but you wouldn't see the current situation where, when it comes to DPS, Mineral 2 outclasses 99% of weapons all of the time and still outclasses the other 1% of weapons (which are pretty much only the best Greater Banes) 90% of the time.

Borror0
11-16-2008, 06:08 AM
IMO Greensteel items should have been done a little differently - the synergy bonuses should not have been as powerful as they are.

IMO, "little differently" is understating it.

Not only the dual shard bonus at too much, but the bonuses themselves are way too big. +6 to all Cha skills, +150-300 SPs, +4 AC, +45 HP, etc.

Too much all of a sudden. It should have been toned down.

krud
11-16-2008, 07:42 AM
I blame it on the fact that we've been sitting at cap and doing endless loot runs for so long that we have looted the **** out of the game. Pretty much everybody's list for what they would like to see out of random loot is still the same old stuff as it's always been, just with a higher stat bonus, or with bonuses on valuble item slots. There really isn't much more that can be added to random loot to make it more interestig except to make the bonuses bigger. Anything more than that and you'll need to add more named loot, which would be a mistake. Only way to remedy this is to increase the level cap so that these higher items become available. However, to include these items in the tables before the cap goes up would be a mistake.

However there are a few things that I think would be nice to se; greater cursespewers, or sappers, etc. Same stuff with higher DCs.

sirgog
11-16-2008, 08:09 AM
I blame it on the fact that we've been sitting at cap and doing endless loot runs for so long that we have looted the **** out of the game. Pretty much everybody's list for what they would like to see out of random loot is still the same old stuff as it's always been, just with a higher stat bonus, or with bonuses on valuble item slots. There really isn't much more that can be added to random loot to make it more interestig except to make the bonuses bigger. Anything more than that and you'll need to add more named loot, which would be a mistake. Only way to remedy this is to increase the level cap so that these higher items become available. However, to include these items in the tables before the cap goes up would be a mistake.

However there are a few things that I think would be nice to se; greater cursespewers, or sappers, etc. Same stuff with higher DCs.

Actually, want lists have changed.

A typical Mod 5 want list of a 'powergamer' looked like this:

(bunch of sought after named items)
+5 Mithril Fullplate - 700k PP
+6 Con ring - 1 million PP
Sup Pot 6 one-hander - 2-3 million PP
Greater Potency 6-7 one-hander - 125k PP
+4 or better transmuting heavy pick of pure good or maiming - 250k PP
GT Disruptor (two handed) - 500k PP
GT Disruptor (one-handed) - 1m PP
Random Vorpal - 150k PP
Good Vorpal - 250k PP
Random Disruptor - 100k PP
Random Greater Undead Bane - 100k PP
Good popular greater bane (e.g. Anarchic of Greater Giant Bane for the Reaver) - 75k PP to 150k PP


Nowadays, people are after very different random items. Only the +6 Con ring and very select Greater Banes have held value from this era at all - less than a year ago, those Superior Potency 6 daggers you sell to the House D broker today were the #1 most sought after and valuable item in the game. (I remember all to well paying half a million plat for my first, and a quarter million for my second, and it was a great deal at the time too).

krud
11-16-2008, 09:15 AM
Actually, want lists have changed.

A typical Mod 5 want list of a 'powergamer' looked like this:

(bunch of sought after named items)
+5 Mithril Fullplate - 700k PP
+6 Con ring - 1 million PP
Sup Pot 6 one-hander - 2-3 million PP
Greater Potency 6-7 one-hander - 125k PP
+4 or better transmuting heavy pick of pure good or maiming - 250k PP
GT Disruptor (two handed) - 500k PP
GT Disruptor (one-handed) - 1m PP
Random Vorpal - 150k PP
Good Vorpal - 250k PP
Random Disruptor - 100k PP
Random Greater Undead Bane - 100k PP
Good popular greater bane (e.g. Anarchic of Greater Giant Bane for the Reaver) - 75k PP to 150k PP


Nowadays, people are after very different random items. Only the +6 Con ring and very select Greater Banes have held value from this era at all - less than a year ago, those Superior Potency 6 daggers you sell to the House D broker today were the #1 most sought after and valuable item in the game. (I remember all to well paying half a million plat for my first, and a quarter million for my second, and it was a great deal at the time too).

Superior potency anything at the highest available level is still good.
good vorpals are still in demand
+6 con ring is still good

The only way to make most of these better is to make them higher level, i.e +7 stat, sup pot 8, etc. I don't think that is a good idea before the cap goes up. It will leave nothing to loot when cap does in fact go up. The other option is to make more powerful named items. Again, I don't think it's a good idea before cap goes up. Then they'll need to introduce epic items when they raise cap. More gearflation.

Since we are not advancing upward at the moment neither should the gear. A sideways approach, similar to what has been done with the armor, can be used (i.e consolidating effects into one slot). We should get named items that offer at most only what is currently available, except in different slots. Another thought is to give little used affects like exhausted, cursespeweing, shaken, etc higher DCs. That way an entire party can bring to bear a bunch of little incremental debuffs on mobs, instead of the usual instakill vorpal/smite/banish/disrupting tricks.

bobbryan2
11-16-2008, 09:38 AM
The only way to make most of these better is to make them higher level, i.e +7 stat, sup pot 8, etc. I don't think that is a good idea before the cap goes up. It will leave nothing to loot when cap does in fact go up. The other option is to make more powerful named items.


That's not entirely true. The only way to make those 'specific' items better is to well... make them better, yes.

But there's no reason that the random effects table should be limited to the anemic list that currently exists.

Exceptional stat bonuses
Exceptional skill bonuses
All the new guards
Arcane Lore
etc

All of these should be added to the loot tables. There's no justifiable reason that half of the loot table remains reserved for named items.

sirgog
11-16-2008, 06:14 PM
Superior potency anything at the highest available level is still good.
good vorpals are still in demand
+6 con ring is still good


Sup Pot 6 remains 'good', but it isn't sought after or valuable. I consider myself lucky to get 20k PP for one on the AH these days - back when Mod 5 was out, you would never put one of these on the AH as it was worth more than 2 million plat.

Vorpals are on the House D broker all the time, including one-handers. I've given up on buying them from the brokers to resell, they simply don't resell now. Exception - finessable one-handed Vorps get 70-80k PP.

+6 Con ring does remain good, but to be worth serious plat it needs a good kicker (e.g. Shield clicky). Otherwise it's worth less than a large scale.

krud
11-17-2008, 09:22 AM
I guess if we are not adding anything with an effect that is more powerful than what is already in game (e.g. stat +8, superior pot 8, etc) then yes, better loot is good. I still think taking effects we already get and mixing/matching them on different items or in different combinations is the way to go for now. If that includes effects currently found only on named items, fine, as long as the power level isn't above what we already pull.

Thorzian
11-24-2008, 01:53 AM
even change the items we get now for a start. For example greater false life.. either a ring or a belt currently. why not randomize a little more. Let me guess what 90 % of the equipment is for toons out there.

str-bracers
dex-gloves
cha-cloak
wiz-necklace
int-goggles
con-ring
false life- belt
toughness/heavy fort-helmet

barring raid loot (and green steel is raid loot) this will cover almost everybody. If i pull etereal bracers from ghosts of perdition i dont even have a character to give it to because of the way loot is i need the bracer slot for my str item. the op wants better loot from the loot tables.. baby steps for me is fine and randomize a bit please

Therron
11-25-2008, 01:14 PM
Its also the junk stats that screw you over like vicious I mean who uses one of them and about 3 stats that do the sameish thing

Tendon Slice
Crippling
Strength Sapping--- -6 str, -6 con -50% move 15 DC Fort Check Per Hit
Slowburst

When all I want is good old paralyzing or I get a +4 mithral breastplate with lesser acid guard and lesser lightning resist when I would rather have the clean +4 mithral breastplate I could use 4 levels earlier

then people wonder why no one runs other stuff that dosn't have named loot drops because they know there will be nothing of use to them in the chests

Also the other issue is the sharp decline in named loot drops at the high levels
take jeekas spangle 1 named item in Stealthy repossession if i run it about on normal hard and elite there is a good chance I will get it.

Now at level 13 Ever tried to get a kardens eye or a ring of shadows or deaths locket
I could run it 7 x or more and never see one of those items drop for me
and its not as if random loot is going to be as good so I am trapped to running Pop to get my trinket because it wont drop in any other 14 level zone and i am not even getting exp even if it was a +4 resist instead of a +5 and dropped more it would be more use to me at 11,12,13,14 level and I would say that was cool I got the resist trinket and a pile of random chest junk.
Rather than just more vendor junk

SableShadow
11-25-2008, 01:21 PM
Tendon Slice
Crippling
Strength Sapping--- -6 str, -6 con -50% move 15 DC Fort Check Per Hit
Slowburst


I can't speak to Slowburst, but the other three stack, and turn a fast moving, annoyingly agile red-named into a snail you can just beat on. YMMV.

Therron
11-25-2008, 01:44 PM
I can't speak to Slowburst, but the other three stack, and turn a fast moving, annoyingly agile red-named into a snail you can just beat on. YMMV.

Rather my Dwarf side kick was tanking the red while the wizard debuffed him and the sorc magical fire at him and the ranger had a weapon to pew pew him with and I had a sword that I could choppy chop chop him with :)

SableShadow
11-25-2008, 03:06 PM
Rather my Dwarf side kick was tanking the red while the wizard debuffed him and the sorc magical fire at him and the ranger had a weapon to pew pew him with and I had a sword that I could choppy chop chop him with :)

You can actually just use them to achieve the desired effect, then have your rogue stab stab stab the red in the back until it's dead. :)

Therron
11-25-2008, 07:55 PM
ok starting to get off topic but what i was saying was there are too many junk stats on random loot and double ups
and named loot while easier to get in lower levels becomes stupidly hard to get later on at higher levels same time spent same risk less reward or no reward except vendor plat