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View Full Version : So, is this the long-term state of enemy caster AI?



parvo
11-03-2008, 12:25 PM
Because if it is, that is a really sad thing.

Enemy casters run up to melee range, act stupid for a few moments, and (if they are still alive), turn around and fire spells away from thier attackers.

It's the sorriest AI of any MMO I've ever seen. If it were fixed, it would go a long way toward re-balancing player vs. environment. It would go a long way toward making the game challenging and fun again.

I'm begging here. I want to be excited to play. Give me a reason to hope. If there is no plan to fix enemy caster AI, there's no reason to stay.

TreknaQudane
11-03-2008, 12:26 PM
Because if it is, that is a really sad thing.

Enemy casters run up to melee range, act stupid for a few moments, and (if they are still alive), turn around and fire spells away from thier attackers.

It's the sorriest AI of any MMO I've ever seen. If it were fixed, it would go a long way toward re-balancing player vs. environment. It would go a long way toward making the game challenging and fun again.

I'm begging here. I want to be excited to play. Give me a reason to hope. If there is no plan to fix enemy caster AI, there's no reason to stay.

Maybe try Perma-Injury where you take no healing in a quest... fall to far, sprain your ankle and force your party to continue on without you?

toughguyjoe
11-03-2008, 12:31 PM
So why when Parvo posts something legitimate does the flame begin immediately? i've seen red robed dudes run up to me, spin around and throw their hand out like a ray spell, and in the heat of combat i don't know if they are even hitting me with "searing light" or whatever ray they mean to throw, so he might be right. they might be messed up and not acting properly. As much as i hate when Parvo tries to push perma-death on people, hes not doing it here. hes asking a legitimate question.

parvo
11-03-2008, 12:37 PM
So why when Parvo posts something legitimate does the flame begin immediately? i've seen red robed dudes run up to me, spin around and throw their hand out like a ray spell, and in the heat of combat i don't know if they are even hitting me with "searing light" or whatever ray they mean to throw, so he might be right. they might be messed up and not acting properly. As much as i hate when Parvo tries to push perma-death on people, hes not doing it here. hes asking a legitimate question.

There's no "might be right" about it. If you want to test it, it's as simple as approaching any non-anchored caster. Very few will act differently than I describe.

TreknaQudane
11-03-2008, 12:39 PM
So why when Parvo posts something legitimate does the flame begin immediately? i've seen red robed dudes run up to me, spin around and throw their hand out like a ray spell, and in the heat of combat i don't know if they are even hitting me with "searing light" or whatever ray they mean to throw, so he might be right. they might be messed up and not acting properly. As much as i hate when Parvo tries to push perma-death on people, hes not doing it here. hes asking a legitimate question.

Trust me, thats not a flame.

Don't you think Turbine's been trying to make casters more 'intelligent' since the games creation? That however isn't easy as thought.. Ok, make a caster cast more. Spells have range... Ok they need to get in range, oh wait, the target moved! Many of the turn and shoot rays happen when you move towards the caster as they move towards you. So what'd the solution be? have casters just cast even if they couldn't hit a target, move to AoE spells like grease and sleet storm so they can? That'll go over well.

Shyver
11-03-2008, 12:40 PM
The caster AI needs to be fixed. A class that should be feared by players has become a joke that can be ignored.

Take for example, last night I decided to try out the new area and the lowbie quest with the dragon (can't recall the name). The casters would turn from me and fire magic missles and acid arrows into a wall in a different direction, allowing me to kill his melee guards and then simply walking up to him and dispatching him at will.

It's something that needs to be fixed to add that little bit of challenge back into the game when dealing with a mob caster. Though I see this a lot more in the low to mid levels than at the higher levels. But that could be due to everyone keying into and killing ememy casters first at higher levels.

dragonoffrost
11-03-2008, 12:43 PM
Wait until you get to high levels and have the Frost Giant Clerics cast a blade barrier and then his other Giant buddies ping-pong you in the blade barriers... good times and good AI!

Beherit_Baphomar
11-03-2008, 12:46 PM
Trust me, thats not a flame.

Don't you think Turbine's been trying to make casters more 'intelligent' since the games creation? That however isn't easy as thought...

Problem is, casters havent always acted this way.

I cant remember when it happened, but it was when an "improvement" in AI was put in place....it actually started happening when the AI was made more intelligent...

Aspenor
11-03-2008, 12:47 PM
Problem is, casters havent always acted this way.

I cant remember when it happened, but it was when an "improvement" in AI was put in place....it actually started happening when the AI was made more intelligent...

It was made sometime in Mod 4 or 5 when ranged AI was tweaked, causing archers and other ranged enemies to run away.

Remember the old whiff whiff as you chased hobgoblin archers?

I think we can blame that change.

Kaldaka
11-03-2008, 12:54 PM
/signed

It needs to be looked at again ...

I notice it most on the kobold casters in the harbor. I'm sure it happens other places as well tho ...

Mindspat
11-03-2008, 03:10 PM
I also suspect that every time there's a change made to the AI we have this incredible server lag. The Caster's AI, all MObs for that matter, have gotten worse recently. It's almost as if they see your location as a Zero Point and the AI is reading "go to Zero Point" which is Exactly where your position is and this should not be possible. As an example, If I Jump I'll land directly on the head of a mob trying to cast spells at me; at least we're no longer taking falling damage for being hung up on mobs.

What cracks me up is how EVERY mob in this game tries to flank you. That's total troll dung and prescribes to a situation of annoyance and generally un-fun encounters. There is a point where this should be adjusted in terms of Game Play rather then Theory.

GreenGurgler
11-03-2008, 03:20 PM
Maybe this is Turbines way of 'balancing' the fact that enemy casters have unlimited SP and a 1,000,000 for a Concentration check and NEVER fail! Oh, and they all have quicken on permanently!!

Ok, jk... this is messed up, but I dont care that much since the caster mobs have been 'cheating' since day one. It is refreshing to see them suck for awhile.

Plus, since this goes against the players, remember that means Turbine will fix it ASAP. but if it went against us, it might never get fixed.

;)

Hafeal
11-03-2008, 03:34 PM
If there is no plan to fix enemy caster AI, there's no reason to stay.

A bit over-dramatic, no? :cool:

Plenty of reason to stay, not the least of which is the new mod.

I expect better and more constructive criticism from you parvo, not acting like a noobie forum poster throwing a tantrum. :(

AI is the albatross around the gaming world neck. I think DDO does a fairly good job with it all things considered. It is nice to see the AI experiencing essentially the same problems we have - targeting and casting in time, given the spell limitations. Maybe it will lead to improvements for the AI and the players. :o

As I have said in a thread before - try programming stupidity some time. Many creatures are STUPID, and should battle accordingly. They should not always make the right choice or go in the right direction. I am not saying that is what has happened here but I am pointing out that AI programming is very complex and we should keep it in perspective.

JetEskimo
11-03-2008, 03:50 PM
..It's the sorriest AI of any MMO I've ever seen...

You've obviously never played City of Heroes, where they stand where spawned, and don't move even if you set a puddle of fire underneath them.

But still, for casters, they actually *would* be better of if they stood their ground. At least then they'd get a shot off before death.

parvo
11-03-2008, 07:59 PM
Problem is, casters havent always acted this way.

I cant remember when it happened, but it was when an "improvement" in AI was put in place....it actually started happening when the AI was made more intelligent...

Exactly.

parvo
11-03-2008, 08:02 PM
It was made sometime in Mod 4 or 5 when ranged AI was tweaked, causing archers and other ranged enemies to run away.

Remember the old whiff whiff as you chased hobgoblin archers?

I think we can blame that change.

I think you're right. After the "improvement" casters and ranged enemies would sometimes run away indefenitely. At that time, if you couldn't catch them, the best thing to do was back off until they got to range then close on them after they stopped. But even then, as bad as that was, the AI was better than it is now.

Dylos_Moon
11-03-2008, 10:26 PM
It was made sometime in Mod 4 or 5 when ranged AI was tweaked, causing archers and other ranged enemies to run away.

Remember the old whiff whiff as you chased hobgoblin archers?

I think we can blame that change.

Chased? I remember taking out my ranged weapon, firing it and them and they'd run back to me due to the AI of all mobs being inclined to want to melee you if you are ranging, at least until they realize they aren't programmed to melee.

In_Like_Flynn
11-04-2008, 10:51 AM
Enemy casters run up to melee range, act stupid for a few moments, and (if they are still alive), turn around and fire spells away from thier attackers.I agree that AI is the most disappointing thing about DDO at the moment.

Cendaer
11-04-2008, 01:48 PM
Enemy casters run up to melee range, act stupid for a few moments, and (if they are still alive), turn around and fire spells away from thier attackers.


I'm noticing the same thing with a lot of enemy casters, and some monsters that prefer ranged attacks.

They run up and bump into you, then turn around to run away to ranged distance. Sometimes they will turn around before firing a spell, sometimes they don't.

Or

They run completely past you, but don't turn around to face your back before they start firing off spells.

I've also been seeing monsters who prefer ranged attacks facing the wrong direction while attacking, and doing nothing to correct their position.

Since I've only been playing the NPE areas for the last several days, I can only say I've been seeing it happen there. Most noticeably in the quests using variations of the "Low Road" and "Matter of Protection" maps.

Deadz
11-04-2008, 02:02 PM
/signed

It needs to be looked at again ...

I notice it most on the kobold casters in the harbor. I'm sure it happens other places as well tho ...

Well.. they are kobolds...

When was the last time you read a book written by a kobold.. huh????

Yeah k.. i'll agree, i notice it too, but mostly when i'm moving around, if i stand still fighting it doesn' thappen, it's that they have poor tracking, or once the /cast spell is triggered, their target is set.. but when i'm fighting them it looks like they just turn around and attack the wall.. .STUPID WALL DIE!!!

parvo
11-05-2008, 12:18 PM
Well.. they are kobolds...

When was the last time you read a book written by a kobold.. huh????

Yeah k.. i'll agree, i notice it too, but mostly when i'm moving around, if i stand still fighting it doesn' thappen, it's that they have poor tracking, or once the /cast spell is triggered, their target is set.. but when i'm fighting them it looks like they just turn around and attack the wall.. .STUPID WALL DIE!!!

Many Kobolds are actually smarter than some of the characters in our parties. They are supposed to have something like 10/10 Int/Wis. Niether here nor there...

Talon_Moonshadow
11-05-2008, 12:22 PM
Archers do the same thing as casters.

Turial
11-05-2008, 01:14 PM
Archers do the same thing as casters.

Yep and its prime time to shoot or stab them in the back.

That being said its odd that only a few mobs can change from casting to melee or ranged to melee as players close the gap. Orcs and gnolls are the ones that spring to mind as being able to do this in all but a few staged locations.

Pedaru
11-06-2008, 12:07 AM
I thought this happened because I was always in stealth mode. Guess, not.

Emili
11-06-2008, 02:30 PM
This is due to a lag in the mob's tracking... aside from fixing this it would be nice to see some form of self-preservation in the mob later down the road. I will note however that it matters not what type of mob - outside the beholders, whereas when they have your position they never let up with beams now (those things in the new areas are shooting thru walls once again). Last night i spent some time exploring the areas off reavers refuge ... I noted several times when frost giant clerics went silly... but if you give them time they correct themselves... thus as I stated it is a lag in thier ability to grasp your current location.

parvo
11-06-2008, 06:18 PM
This is due to a lag in the mob's tracking... aside from fixing this it would be nice to see some form of self-preservation in the mob later down the road. I will note however that it matters not what type of mob - outside the beholders, whereas when they have your position they never let up with beams now (those things in the new areas are shooting thru walls once again). Last night i spent some time exploring the areas off reavers refuge ... I noted several times when frost giant clerics went silly... but if you give them time they correct themselves... thus as I stated it is a lag in thier ability to grasp your current location.




No it's not. Has nothing to do with lag. As soon as mobs spot us, they know exactly our position. You can test this by sneaking into an area that has "anchored" range mobs. As soon as they spot you, they will fire arrows directly at you.

This problem is with AI. The AI is coded in a manner that causes this behaviour. It's not just Frost Giant Clerics. It's almost every caster in the game.

Tin_Dragon
11-06-2008, 09:58 PM
Because if it is, that is a really sad thing.

Enemy casters run up to melee range, act stupid for a few moments, and (if they are still alive), turn around and fire spells away from thier attackers.

It's the sorriest AI of any MMO I've ever seen. If it were fixed, it would go a long way toward re-balancing player vs. environment. It would go a long way toward making the game challenging and fun again.

I'm begging here. I want to be excited to play. Give me a reason to hope. If there is no plan to fix enemy caster AI, there's no reason to stay.


Maybe Turbine figured that was fair nuff, since whenever said Gnoll caster is DIRECTLY in front me, within 5-10' or so, and i hit a quickened FoD on it, it says I must face the target :confused:

Fair is fair.

Ghoste
11-06-2008, 11:17 PM
There's no "might be right" about it. If you want to test it, it's as simple as approaching any non-anchored caster. Very few will act differently than I describe.
I can confirm Parvo's observations, and that it does happen frequently with many different types of mobs. It looks like the enemy casters are attempting to shoot rays from their rears, not their finger tips. Their hands are going out in the other direction because they're asking a buddy to "pull my finger".

Trappers
11-08-2008, 10:06 AM
I think part of Parvo's problem is that he's one heck of a good player. Until I joined MV and started playing real permadeath, I thought I'd played with some of the best in the game on Khyber. Parvo and some of the others in our guild blow them out of the water. They have to or they'd die. These guys have been doing quests like Crucible, Invaders and PoP with no spoilers and no deaths recently! How many of you can do that consistently? When you've played PD for awhile, your skills increase dramatically and you need increased challenge to make the game exciting.

One of the most refreshing things about PD forums and game chat is the lack of whining over anything new that makes things more difficult or changes a quest we know inside out.

That said, we do need to remember that there are new players who stink at the game (remembering my own learning experience). They need a bit of a nerf while learning the game. Perhaps, the AI could be left easier at normal and solo and fixed at hard/elite? Not sure that's possible, but I'd hate to see new players scared away by a fix.

parvo
11-11-2008, 07:13 PM
I don't know what's more dissapointing, the continued horrible enemy caster AI or the lack of dev feedback.

Devs, if you're happy with the AI please just say so. If that is the case, I'd like to move on.