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artvan_delet
11-02-2008, 04:48 PM
...the new mod, and it's no better now. Maybe I'm in a bad mood, but playing a paladin is
1) even more of a pain than before
2) no better/worse if you are sword and board

As mentioned before, the clicky-fest required for being a paladin is more of a pain than ever. DM, DS, DF, Zeal, Prayer, etc.

1) Why can't Divine Might just add damage all the time? You already need high base level charisma and paladin levels to use DM. Does anyone think paladins will somehow become uber powered with +2/+4/+6 damage? DM lasts one minute, is this a joke.
2) Divine Smite. I enjoy how the red mobs in this mob move so much more. It makes sense, except that it screws you on divine smite. The smite still goes off, just alot more going off in the air.
3) I was hoping for green steel shields. Maybe even it up a bit with TWF. OK, there's a new mod. Great we'll get some kind of shield. What do we get? Dragontouched ARMOR. Oh perfect, in case Icy Rainments didn't suit your TWF fancy (And we'll hand them out like crazy for a while), now you can perfect your armor. Shields? Forget about it. Are you kidding? Dragontouched armor is quite nice. Is it somehow impossible to make shields craftable?
4) I feel almost compelled to get extend, so I don't have 1 minute Divine Favor (thanks for that nerf some time ago) & 2 min zeal (on a level 16 pally, shorter if you multi-classed).

The gap between a TWF ranger/rogue/monk for DPS, AC, stat damage is as big as ever. Zeal is the new addition to paladins, so we get 10 percent more attacks. So while zeal is cast, and not debuffed, we get 1/2 more swing per chain? Does anyone anywhere think that comes close to fixing paladins?

I really liked my paladin (250+ raids on this toon), and I have stood by for over a year advocating for paladins. Maybe I'm in a bad mood, but I'm sad. (And I feel bad for S/B fighters too, btw. Did they get any love this mod?)

Borror0
11-02-2008, 05:05 PM
I thought you Devs disliked Paladins before...
Ironically, Eladrin's favorite toon is an halfling paladin.

Chaos000
11-02-2008, 05:29 PM
maybe sword and board paladin isn't the way to go and we're supposed to go greater two handed fighting...

:D

I know they have a holy avenger in the works... if it's a greatsword that's a buffed up version of the sword of shadows I can see some potential there

Balkas
11-02-2008, 05:38 PM
maybe sword and board paladin isn't the way to go and we're supposed to go greater two handed fighting...

:D

I know they have a holy avenger in the works... if it's a greatsword that's a buffed up version of the sword of shadows I can see some potential there

I believe it's going to be a longsword.

If they add the Whirling Steel Strike feat for monks... I foresee an abundance of Paladin monks :).

Dexxaan
11-02-2008, 05:41 PM
maybe sword and board paladin isn't the way to go and we're supposed to go greater two handed fighting...

:D

I know they have a holy avenger in the works... if it's a greatsword that's a buffed up version of the sword of shadows I can see some potential there

Holy Avenger? Wow does it remove the clicky-Fest on a Paladin? Does it Open Shield Crafting? Does it make DF last as long as it should or remove the Nerf from Mod 5 was it capping it at +3 to hit and Damage?

Spare me the weapon...give me a Class that deserves better.

Bradik_Losdar
11-02-2008, 09:24 PM
I have to agree.

Seems like I spend more time trying to mash buttons than I do actually fighting the forces of evil.

I was really looking forward to Divine Might, until I tried to take it and couldn't get past DM step I. Even with only a minute on the timer, it still looked to be a step forward. Unfortunately my BASE 14 Cha is teh suck. So all I get is a lousy +2 damage. With enhancements and tomes (not enchantments) I have a 20 Cha, but am still stuck with the lowest end possible. With all the inflated hit points monsters have in DDO this is practically nothing. Really, who would gimp a paladin during character creation with an 20 Cha so he could have a +8 damage clickie at level 20 ? Oh wait, those paladin sorcs, that's right. :confused:

Honestly, if they made Smite Evil or some of the other paladin "clickie" enhancements full time, always on abilities, paladins (who are supposed to be the very scorge of evil) might actually come close to fulfilling their designated role. Perhaps make this "full time on" status based on pure paladin standing - so splashing a level or two of paladin for all the goodies, but none of the downsides (low DPS being the major one) would be seriously curtailed.

That aside, all the button pushing is just rediculous. I've had some run out WHILE still pushing buttons to activate others - isn't that the very definition of too much? If I can't use them all concurrently, what's the point?

Please devs, stop the clickie madness for paladins. I get all the button pushing I want on my monk ;)

DoctorWhofan
11-03-2008, 12:13 AM
I agree.

I have two High level Pure pallys Sword and boards.


Greensteel shields? Man, I'd be doing EVERY Shroud with my level 15 gimp Pally.

I hate the clickfest. I hate clickies in general. Don't use trip for that reason. Now, playing him, I feel I am playing WoW.

artvan_delet
11-03-2008, 12:33 AM
4) and if you go high level paladin, you should forget about CE. With all these spells, forget it.
5) And it would seem that the time it takes to cast DF, Zeal, Prayer, should they expire during combat, makes you waste at least one attack. Same with DM. So that uber +2/+4 extra damage you were getting every minute with DM, you just wasted at least one attack casting DM. So if your attacks are doing 60 per, then it will take you 15 attacks to make up for the one you lost hitting DM. Now if you had all of these up before you started combat, and your combat ended in 1 minute, then good for you. But that leads me to point 6.
6) I love running after my party trying to put up all my buffs before a fight. Or wondering if I should ask everyone to wait while I try to get all these buffs up. Or trying to get the buffs going when unexpected combat starts.
7) I used to love the idea of fighting beholders. Uber saves FTW. Now I dread it, I mean all those buffs gone. (I don't really dread it, but what a pain in the rump getting debuffed as a pally.)

Baranor
11-03-2008, 12:42 AM
I have to say that this topic always seems funny too me, so I didn't even bother to finish reading any of the posts.

Everyone who wants to play pallys wants them to be as effective as pure dps type builds, here's the thing... YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.
If they could dps like other fighter classes wouldn't they be FAR superior than any other class and therefore way too over powered

just a thought

artvan_delet
11-03-2008, 12:51 AM
I have to say that this topic always seems funny too me, so I didn't even bother to finish reading any of the posts.

Everyone who wants to play pallys wants them to be as effective as pure dps type builds, here's the thing... YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.
If they could dps like other fighter classes wouldn't they be FAR superior than any other class and therefore way too over powered

just a thought

I understand what you are saying. And I'll admit I sound like a whiner in this post. Like I said I'm in a bad mood, and it is rather whiney. But I would say this,

For me, it isn't about matching DPS. Paladins shouldn't match barb DPS. It's about being even overall, and creating a class that is currently a pain to play. (The best thing about paladin for me is the LOH. 4 of those at 350/300 per is a huge advantage, and good for the party. BOG is also very nice, and good for the party. Saves are high, but they don't matter much nowadays.) But paladin DPS/AC/stat damaging is so much lower than TWF, this class has issues. And sword and board are way behind. But again, the upgrades we get are a pain to play, and I'm already tired of all the clicking. It's the culmination of these things that I hope to bring to Dev attention.

moops
11-03-2008, 01:06 AM
Well, if it makes you feel any better, I tried to take a group through Enter The Kobold on Normal last night, and our 2wf melee couldn't cut it--we wiped like 4 times lol, where as you did awesome when we did it on Hard and there was no party wipe at all. . . .

I love having your Pali on quests, it means success is assured :)

DoctorWhofan
11-03-2008, 01:09 AM
I understand what you are saying. And I'll admit I sound like a whiner in this post. Like I said I'm in a bad mood, and it is rather whiney. But I would say this,

For me, it isn't about matching DPS. Paladins shouldn't match barb DPS. It's about being even overall, and creating a class that is currently a pain to play. (The best thing about paladin for me is the LOH. 4 of those at 350/300 per is a huge advantage, and good for the party. BOG is also very nice, and good for the party. Saves are high, but they don't matter much nowadays.) But paladin DPS/AC/stat damaging is so much lower than TWF, this class has issues. And sword and board are way behind. But again, the upgrades we get are a pain to play, and I'm already tired of all the clicking. It's the culmination of these things that I hope to bring to Dev attention.

Agreed. Not looking to outkill a Barbarian, or Tempest Ranger. We are looking for something that can help us stay in the running kill wise and help us get chosen for quests.

And a clickfest isn't it. I want something that makes a mostly Pure pally be wanted by players to play. Or to have in parties, withput sacrificing too much of what a Pally IS.

Strykersz
11-03-2008, 03:22 AM
I have to say that this topic always seems funny too me, so I didn't even bother to finish reading any of the posts.

Everyone who wants to play pallys wants them to be as effective as pure dps type builds, here's the thing... YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.
If they could dps like other fighter classes wouldn't they be FAR superior than any other class and therefore way too over powered

just a thought

So what does your pure paladin bring to the group that is relevant to the objective of completing the quest in a timely fashion to make up for its sub par dps?

Junts
11-03-2008, 04:01 AM
I gotta say I find a lot of you haven't put adequate time into your paladin. Mine is a 14/2, I admit, but were he pure he would not be losing anythingin the DPS category (1 str bracket is it), and the only other thing his fighter levels are really helping provide is the intimidate/ac portion of the build. He's extremely useful in the new content and the flexibility of umd, his own resists, lay on hands (underratedly wonderful in a lot of quests), etc is quite effective. If he were pure he would be less an AC toon and lose the intimidate, but pick up death ward or stalwart pact and more ac/resist for people.

Verlock
11-03-2008, 04:33 AM
dont wanna read all this but i like clickys i run 17 bars on my clr its better then auto atk

Xithos
11-03-2008, 04:35 AM
I have to say that this topic always seems funny too me, so I didn't even bother to finish reading any of the posts.

Everyone who wants to play pallys wants them to be as effective as pure dps type builds, here's the thing... YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.
If they could dps like other fighter classes wouldn't they be FAR superior than any other class and therefore way too over powered

just a thought

Ranger hybrids can "have their cake and eat it too". High AC, high DPS, splash 2 pal and you can get real high saves; you can even intimtank with some build tweeks. If I were a paladin I would be asking for something really nice as well.

brshelton
11-03-2008, 06:04 AM
I have to say that this topic always seems funny too me, so I didn't even bother to finish reading any of the posts.

Everyone who wants to play pallys wants them to be as effective as pure dps type builds, here's the thing... YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.
If they could dps like other fighter classes wouldn't they be FAR superior than any other class and therefore way too over powered

just a thought

um they cant do anything better than someone else....

Borror0
11-03-2008, 06:20 AM
1) Why can't Divine Might just add damage all the time? You already need high base level charisma and paladin levels to use DM. Does anyone think paladins will somehow become uber powered with +2/+4/+6 damage? DM lasts one minute, is this a joke.
I wouldn't agree with it lasting all the time. However, I did suggest a few ways to make it much less of a pain in the ass than it already is. One of them was to allow multiple uses to stack. Each time you use it, it will add the equivalent of one use to the current time total.

You could then use half of your Divine Mights at the start of the quest and be good for a while.

2) Divine Smite. I enjoy how the red mobs in this mob move so much more. It makes sense, except that it screws you on divine smite. The smite still goes off, just alot more going off in the air.
I hate Smite Evil in its current implementation.

There has been a few suggestion on these boards to make it less painful to use. Of the ones I remember:

Small duration (a Smite Evill buff that lasts a few seconds)
Activating Smite Evill buff your next attack that willl connect with a mob (this could be extended to Trip, Stunning Blow and the like.


3) I was hoping for green steel shields. Maybe even it up a bit with TWF. OK, there's a new mod. Great we'll get some kind of shield. What do we get? Dragontouched ARMOR. Oh perfect, in case Icy Rainments didn't suit your TWF fancy (And we'll hand them out like crazy for a while), now you can perfect your armor. Shields? Forget about it. Are you kidding? Dragontouched armor is quite nice. Is it somehow impossible to make shields craftable?
Green Steel shields wouldn't address the core problem and would only make the casual gamers be further behind.


4) and if you go high level paladin, you should forget about CE. With all these spells, forget it.
...while, ironically, CE has became a must have for any character that cares about AC.

I proposed something way back around module 7. When using a spell, CE would stay toggle on but would stop granting its AC bonus for the next 6ish seconds. Then, after that, it would go back up automatically. It would reduce the clicking that is, quite honestly, not fun at all.

Paladin20
11-03-2008, 07:10 AM
4) and if you go high level paladin, you should forget about CE. With all these spells, forget it.
5) And it would seem that the time it takes to cast DF, Zeal, Prayer, should they expire during combat, makes you waste at least one attack. Same with DM. So that uber +2/+4 extra damage you were getting every minute with DM, you just wasted at least one attack casting DM. So if your attacks are doing 60 per, then it will take you 15 attacks to make up for the one you lost hitting DM. Now if you had all of these up before you started combat, and your combat ended in 1 minute, then good for you. But that leads me to point 6.
6) I love running after my party trying to put up all my buffs before a fight. Or wondering if I should ask everyone to wait while I try to get all these buffs up. Or trying to get the buffs going when unexpected combat starts.
7) I used to love the idea of fighting beholders. Uber saves FTW. Now I dread it, I mean all those buffs gone. (I don't really dread it, but what a pain in the rump getting debuffed as a pally.)

5) Take Extend Spell. You can even synchronize Madstone Rage with DF this way. It takes two seconds if you're a slow clicker to use DM. They FINALLY made your Turn Undead useful, how can you possibly complain? Against the Pit Fiend I'm doing regular crits of (all figures principal damage) 145-167, Divine Sacrifice crits of up to 208, and Smite Evil Crits of up to 390 with only 11 Pally levels/DM II/DS I/ExS II. I'm ****ing in my pants not being able to wait till lvl 20 so I can get him to Pal 15. This is the first time in a LONG TIME I'm excited for my Mod 3 Pally build...

6) If you're really that desperate to get swings in, you can either:
a. Zerg ahead while you're buffing yourself.
b. Cast DF, get a few hits and then cast everything else. No shame in that.

7) DM is not a spell, but rather like an Action Boost and I don't think that can be dispelled. Be thankful that you can now use that effectively against things such as beholders when your other buffs are countered. Since when did you NOT get dispelled while fighting beholders? It's not just us pallies that are losing our buffs, I don't see how this is a good argument. If you're having trouble with them, I suggest you getting the biggest, baddest 2-hander weapon, click that To-Hit action boost and your Divine Might and go to town. I mean, your AC means nothing at this stage, and you never know if those extra glancing blow damage points are what kills the beholder ;-).

Paladin20
11-03-2008, 07:36 AM
Agreed. Not looking to outkill a Barbarian, or Tempest Ranger. We are looking for something that can help us stay in the running kill wise and help us get chosen for quests.

And a clickfest isn't it. I want something that makes a mostly Pure pally be wanted by players to play. Or to have in parties, withput sacrificing too much of what a Pally IS.

My pally does just fine DPS-wise. Pretty much max for a sword and board. I'm usually in the top 3-4 kill wise in the Shroud, but honestly that's just not a very good way to measure your DPS output. There are just too many ways to win the kill count. Perfect example is a Stat-Dmg 2WF Barbarian killing faster than a 2-Hander Greataxe one. I don't know your pally builds and am in no way judging them, but IMO a well-built Pally is at the moment outdoing a Fighter with the same weapon configuration. And I mean not slightly, but by a very significant amount. Fully buffed, I'm doing 1d10+35 (+40 Bard/+42 Warchanter) principal damage per swing, and I don't even have Divine Might III. I didn't have to gimp anything in order to accomplish this. He has 30 Str/28 Cha, 57 AC Standing, and is one of those 'tards who would need a +5 Int Tome to get Combat Expertise. Raid buffed his AC is 63/67/69 depending on what I get, and I have 350 HP w/o a GFL, +3 Con Tome or a Shroud HP item. I so wished I had known they would've given Paladins all these goodies when I rolled him, that Intimidate would actually be a functioning and very useful skill, but I was tired of sitting on my ass waiting for them to improve the class so I decided to come up with my own solution to the DPS problem. I can guarantee I would've kept him more pure had I known otherwise.

As for the click fest, it's no more than playing a Cleric, a Bard, or even your Barbarian activating all the Rages and other clickies, drinking pots, and what not. I really don't see how that's an issue. I mean, you start with Zeal, Divine Favor, then Divine Might. That's 3 buttons/clicks/hotkeys. You have a cooldown and a limited amount of Smite Evil, and then a cooldown for Divine Sacrifice. That's 5 things to handle, 2 of which are done only once every 1-2 mins depending on whether you have Extend or not, 1 which is done once every minute, and the other 2 you use at your own discretion. How many combats in this game last for more than 2 minutes?

Junts
11-03-2008, 07:41 AM
Pal, are those your buffs or group buffs? 35 seems high, my paladin (30 str) tops out at +27 self buffed (5 weapon 10 str 3 df 4 dm 5 PA)

If that involves rage/madstone rage that would get up to +30, but there's still a gap. Very interested in your setup, though.

Alcides
11-03-2008, 07:45 AM
I don't completely agree with all the points of the OP; however, there are many I do agree with.

1. All the short term duration buffs in the game need to be given a duration of 24 seconds + 6 seconds / class level of the class the grants the ability. This would include Divine Favor and Divine Power. At level 16 that works out to be 2 minutes of buff duration, 4 minutes extended. It would provide 20 minutes of Divine Might if you have 10 Turn Undead Attempts).

2. Zeal is an awesome spell. I don't think it should have been a level 4 spell. Level 3 seems more appropriate.

3. Divine Might needs to take into account feat bonuses to charisma because it is very hard to get the higher tiers on a non-drow paladin.

4. Mob AI pretty much requires intimidate now. Even with it they still retreat like silly little kids, but it's not as bad without it. Melee really has to work together and flank off each other now to take down mobs.

5. I don't know what to say about the dragon touched armor. I made my blank used up the runes I had collected over the weekend, and wasn't very happy with the end result mods. I think you should be able to trade in X runes for a specific modifier to be put on the armor that way it's just a collect and finish sort of thing. At least there's a foreseeable end to the Shroud Items, the dragon touched armor could take forever to get the desired modifiers. Also the runes should stack and not be bound. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to weasel a +4 max dex bonus out of it on my dwarf paladin w/o wasting a bunch of enhancement points.

Paladin20
11-03-2008, 07:59 AM
Pal, are those your buffs or group buffs? 35 seems high, my paladin (30 str) tops out at +27 self buffed (5 weapon 10 str 3 df 4 dm 5 PA)

If that involves rage/madstone rage that would get up to +30, but there's still a gap. Very interested in your setup, though.

10 Str
5 Weapon
5 Power Attack
2 Weapon Specialization
3 Divine Favor
4 Divine Might
2 Madstone Rage
1 Rage
--------------------
+32 + 3 Human Versatility Boost = +35 (yes, only 20 secs but I get to use it 5x and it's uberness =D)

I guess I should've said up to +35 that'd be more accurate.

Vallin
11-03-2008, 08:05 AM
Paladins are hard to play - but I thoroughly enjoy mine.

I feel that my Paladin has required the most attention for obtaining the proper melee equipment. Where the other melee classes all function fairly well within their class abilities, the paladin seems to have a lot of inherent melee weaknesses (particularly reliance on clickies and uber loot).

Things that have helped my paladin the most:
Mineral 2 cloak allowed me to free up needed slots.
Tharnes goggles
Transmuting PG weapons/Mineral 2 weapons
Lots of holy GB weapons
Maxing out number of Exalted smites

If I could finally get the Levik's set (still need shield) I would truly be happy. Anyway - my point here is that without high end tweaking he just would not be able to keep up in combat. Not all players have all this uber loot.

Yes, saves are nice - but the spell selection is clickie oriented for combat and that is hard to play. I am looking forward to spells that will help the paladin function even more as a support class. Stalwart pact was a nice addition and the ability to do limited buffs is good too though.

Some of the paladin benefits are no 'seen' though. I am certain people playing around a paladin would like the AC boost and save boost even more if they paid attention to the fact that the boost is there!

Vallin

Paladin20
11-03-2008, 08:06 AM
Ahh I see. I don't usually use my HVs for damage, and 11 reavers has yet to get me the boots (and as an ac build, I hate rage with unholy passion).

Makes sense now.

Correct, but Madstone Rage actually gives you +4 Natural if you don't already have it on, so I don't mind it that much. It offsets the other Rage, and when I'm in full DPS mode, why not ;-).

Junts
11-03-2008, 08:07 AM
Ahh I see. I don't usually use my HVs for damage, and 11 reavers has yet to get me the boots (and as an ac build, I hate rage with unholy passion).

Makes sense now.

Junts
11-03-2008, 08:08 AM
Paladins are hard to play - but I thoroughly enjoy mine.

I feel that my Paladin has required the most attention for obtaining the proper melee equipment. Where the other melee classes all function fairly well within their class abilities, the paladin seems to have a lot of inherent melee weaknesses (particularly reliance on clickies and uber loot).

Things that have helped my paladin the most:
Mineral 2 cloak allowed me to free up needed slots.
Tharnes goggles
Transmuting PG weapons/Mineral 2 weapons
Lots of holy GB weapons
Maxing out number of Exalted smites

If I could finally get the Levik's set (still need shield) I would truly be happy. Anyway - my point here is that without high end tweaking he just would not be able to keep up in combat. Not all players have all this uber loot.

Yes, saves are nice - but the spell selection is clickie oriented for combat and that is hard to play. I am looking forward to spells that will help the paladin function even more as a support class. Stalwart pact was a nice addition and the ability to do limited buffs is good too though.

Some of the paladin benefits are no 'seen' though. I am certain people playing around a paladin would like the AC boost and save boost even more if they paid attention to the fact that the boost is there!

Vallin

The 5 times today I saved party members from incapped status with a flash LOH that didn't even break my swing progression on the named boss I was taking out are the kind of thing people forget about paladins, too.

I admit I still forget to re-DM a lot, though I keep Zeal/DF up constantly.

Quick, how many pallies have ever drank a major mana pot during a fight because they had to keep buffing? I did doing Sorjek the first time :)

Paladin20
11-03-2008, 08:14 AM
Quick, how many pallies have ever drank a major mana pot during a fight because they had to keep buffing? I did doing Sorjek the first time :)

Eek... with 707sp I have a hard time using it all up. I wonder what I'm gonna do with that extra 100sp from the 3rd Tier Shroud upgrade heh. I suppose I can cast extended fire, acid, and elec resists to a 12-man raid, that should do it =D.

Junts
11-03-2008, 08:21 AM
Ahh I don't have my 150 points of (greater) ele spell power yet; those go on my 2nd shroud item (first is mineral2). at 361, I can burn it pretty fast on zeal and DF after buffing resists.

That's what I get for starting at 8 wis (and a worthy tradeoff it was)

DS was a big drain on me, I admit, my melee on nameds consists of drumming myfingers between the smite, divine sac and fight buttons very rapidly, ensuring that smites and DSs happen as soon as their cooldowns are gone (and then DS is the same after smites are gone), since with intimidate I have little to no fear of the mob wandering away from a smite.

I bet I burnt a lot of that SP just on sacrifice, since I use it 20 times a minute.

Darth_Sizzle
11-03-2008, 08:23 AM
It's disheartening to know that you feel this way Inzane. I know you've spent an inordinate amount of time on your Paladin, as I have on mine (though, admittedly, not as much as you). I hear what you're saying about the clicky-fest. I just don't know how they could/would change it. Since I built my Paladin in a different way than most people (DPS/Saves/HP, no regard for AC), and since I'm used to playing a Battle-Bard as well, the clickys don't bother me as much.

P.S. To the people questioning Paladin DPS: I believe that a pure Paladin can do more DPS than a pure Fighter (if taking advantage of the clicky-fest), which is sad for Fighters.

P.P.S. Wassssup Inzane! I'm back from my hiatus; hope to see you in-game soon.

iconiclastic
11-03-2008, 08:34 AM
The sword and board fighters have tactics,the only problem is the devs made red named boss mobs immune to trips and such,wrong move right there and that is not an opinoin,its false advertising.The devs systematically take away all choices from you,and you pay thier salaries.There is definitly something up with that.As far as the paladin goes I have a 16th pali and I dont play him because he is a gimp toon,something has to be done about it.Further they devs have fallen into the trap of making the mobs too high hit die instead of being more creative.The enter the kobold quest was very good though as they finally gave the mobs terrain advantages(you cant jump back and cast when there is little room to do so),only they made them all red named which is just stupid,there should always be a slim chance of outright killing anything if you roll lucky enough.I have no problems as a DM in p&p using normal enemies even some far lower level than the pc's that severly test if not outright ravage the pc's!Granted the mobs cant be made smarter but they can be prearranged to do certain things and then run away to a location,and lastly a rest shrine should never be a safe place to rest in high level content it should be a place where mobs set up ambushes.

Paladin20
11-03-2008, 08:35 AM
Ahh I don't have my 150 points of (greater) ele spell power yet; those go on my 2nd shroud item (first is mineral2). at 361, I can burn it pretty fast on zeal and DF after buffing resists.

That's what I get for starting at 8 wis (and a worthy tradeoff it was)

DS was a big drain on me, I admit, my melee on nameds consists of drumming myfingers between the smite, divine sac and fight buttons very rapidly, ensuring that smites and DSs happen as soon as their cooldowns are gone (and then DS is the same after smites are gone), since with intimidate I have little to no fear of the mob wandering away from a smite.

I bet I burnt a lot of that SP just on sacrifice, since I use it 20 times a minute.

Yep, that's def a great way to ensure aggro... I wish Intimidate wasn't a broken skill back when I rolled this 2nd pally of mine. You used to press the Intimi button and either nothing would happen or there was some weird issue with the ability range heh. It would be insanely nice to apply that +9 Cha Mod to Intimidate checks had I gotten the ranks for it. I'm too deep into it that I really can't reroll him though. I'll work on an Intimitank build another time, I'm satisfied with my Pally.

Junts
11-03-2008, 08:37 AM
They have to make anything intended to be hard rednamed because its too easy for me to haste, zeal, hasteboost and s wing my vorpal 20 times at it in about 5 seconds - and I dont even have dual wield.

To say nothing of a wop.

Or spam hit it with an earthgrab weapon..

etc

calgrissom
11-03-2008, 08:38 AM
Yes it is way overkill atm..... Clicky fest only to fight for say 45 to 60s only to recast EVERYTHING again. I do more damage not recasting because of the downtime it takes in a fight to RECAST everything Its absurd. I tried to take extend to lessen the pain however since they still do not allow you to respec the highest level of feats that stack Like toughness I have to choose one of my high level feats to lose to take extend so guess what! I lose khopesh for 3 days NICE! cant use my primary weapon for 3 days because of the still broken feat respec mechanic. Please make these clickies last 3-4 minutes its really out of control.

Holgar
11-03-2008, 08:47 AM
My main is a 14 Paladin / 2 Fighter. I think the easiest fix to the clickie fest is to extend the durations of Divine Might and Divine Favor. I think these should last for 30 seconds + 6 seconds per level. Divine Might might even warrant something like 5 minutes.

As someone pointed out, you lose 1 or 2 attacks in the middle of the fight to click on Zeal, Divine Favor, and Divine Might. I'm not so sure you make up for the lost damage from the benefits of these clickies.

Holgar

Paladin20
11-03-2008, 09:16 AM
Divine Might might even warrant something like 5 minutes.

As someone pointed out, you lose 1 or 2 attacks in the middle of the fight to click on Zeal, Divine Favor, and Divine Might. I'm not so sure you make up for the lost damage from the benefits of these clickies.

Holgar

My guess would be that since you get 3+Cha Modifier Turn Undeads per rest, 5 minutes would be either a) ridiculous/on 100% of the time or b) stupid b/c you never get to use it all. Actually, with 12 usages of turn undead I'm having a really hard time using it all up.

It has been tested that you get roughly 88 attacks per minute sword-and-board. Assuming a low variance, regular 20% critical hit ratio on a Khopesh doing 35 pts main dmg per swing your Damage output is the following:

(66 Regular Hits*35) + (18 Crits*105) + (4 Auto Miss*0) = (2310 + 1890) = 4200

If you lose a full round of attacks (5) while buffing, and assuming you didn't roll any 1s during that period, the lost damage is the following:

(4 Regular Hits*35) + (1 Crit*105) = 245

Now lets add a 10% speed increase from Zeal, +3 Dmg from DF and +4 Dmg from DM II. For simplicity let's say you'll have 80 attacks remaining in that 1 minute, but since you are attacking 10% faster you've just recovered your original number of attacks and are back at 88. So, it's just a matter of whether that +7 Dmg on your remaining attacks will exceed the damage lost:

(66 Regular Hits*7) + (18 Crits*21) + (4 Auto Miss) = (462 + 378) = 840

So of course this is ignoring many factors such as time spent moving, percentage of time actually attacking, mobs with higher AC, etc. But, for illustrative purposes, it becomes clear that for those few times that you will swing for a full minute (ex: Arraetrikos encounter) the time spent buffing is more than well spent. In terms of percentage increase in your DPS we could express it in the following way:

(Extra Dmg)/(Original Dmg)
840 - 245 = 595 Extra Dmg
so,
595/4200 = 0.14 = 14%

Holgar
11-03-2008, 10:58 AM
Paladin20:

Thanks for the analysis. Now I don't feel so guilty for buffing in the middle of fighting Sorjek!

For the record, I only have Divine Might I (I still need to find a +2 Cha tome so that I can take Divine Might II), but it seems that it is still well worth it to do the buffing.

Thanks!

Holgar