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Tolero
10-30-2008, 11:29 AM
The Compendium has been updated for Module 8: Prisoners of Prophecy! Be sure to check out two brand new features in the Compendium:

- Paths are now visible in the Compendium! Follow along with the progression of your path!
- Are you excited about Hirelings? You can now get a sneak peak at Hirelings in the Compendium! See their commands, their spells, their feats, and much more!

For the Compendium Release Notes, click here (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Compendium_Release_10-30-2008_Official)!

Turial
10-30-2008, 11:32 AM
The paths link is broken in the compendium.

Bad title

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Borror0
10-30-2008, 11:33 AM
No parsers, eh?

Tolero
10-30-2008, 11:35 AM
Got it. Should be fixed now.

Tolero
10-30-2008, 11:35 AM
No parsers, eh?

Not yet. Once they're in I'll call em out :)

Turial
10-30-2008, 11:41 AM
Got it. Should be fixed now.

Thanks!

Freeman
10-30-2008, 11:42 AM
I looked at the three bard paths. I beat my head against the desk. I cried a little inside.(In a manly way, of course) So, where's the appropriate place to offer suggestions on the builds?

EKKM
10-30-2008, 11:45 AM
If you click on the arrow to the right it takes you there.

[EDIT: just reviewed, says total points, my bad] Just reviewed drow tempest path and it indicates it has 4 ranks in UMD at level 1, as UMD isnt a ranger calss skill not sure how that is possible. Should be 4 points, 2 ranks. End build total also shows 19 ranks.

Other than that looked like a good build, stadard feat selection, good attribute distribution. Only odd thing I noticed was taking FE aberration at level 15 (undead, elementals, evil outsiders were others).


Also Tolero, not sure that in your OP you meant to refer to "their feet"...maybe you did but just sayin..

Vorn
10-30-2008, 11:46 AM
I looked at the three bard paths. I beat my head against the desk. I cried a little inside.(In a manly way, of course) So, where's the appropriate place to offer suggestions on the builds?

I was wondering the same thing--gtwf and cleave is an interesting mix for example: thought cleave, etc, only allowed one attack on bigger arc--interesting choice for the whirlwind (which doesn't have whrilwind so it's a metaphor) fighter? Also hadn't noticed the superior weapon focus (weapon) in the feats before, but I often miss stuff.

Interesting stuff, though, and hopefully helpful to new players.

Tolero
10-30-2008, 11:47 AM
I looked at the three bard paths. I beat my head against the desk. I cried a little inside.(In a manly way, of course) So, where's the appropriate place to offer suggestions on the builds?

Well the discussion page is definitely a good place to talk about them. Since you're able to leave your path at any time, in some cases it might be that you liked the path up to a certain level, and after that point chose different things. Paths also don't cover enhancements, so people are welcome to add enhancements that they feel go well with the paths, or maybe weapons/items that work really well with the path.

Tolero
10-30-2008, 11:48 AM
Also Tolero, not sure that in your OP you meant to refer to "their feet"...maybe you did but just sayin..

Uh...who WOULDN'T want to see the exciting feet of the Hirelings, they can walk all by themselves!

>>

*amnesia dust in the face*

Freeman
10-30-2008, 11:50 AM
Well the discussion page is definitely a good place to talk about them. Since you're able to leave your path at any time, in some cases it might be that you liked the path up to a certain level, and after that point chose different things. Paths also don't cover enhancements, so people are welcome to add enhancements that they feel go well with the paths, or maybe weapons/items that work really well with the path.

What I was mainly crying about was a Warchanter starting with an 18 Charisma. There's no going back from that once it is chosen at character creation. In fact, the Warchanter had the exact same stats as Virtuoso, so I can hope there was a mixup somewhere in there.

Borror0
10-30-2008, 11:54 AM
Well the discussion page is definitely a good place to talk about them. Since you're able to leave your path at any time, in some cases it might be that you liked the path up to a certain level, and after that point chose different things. Paths also don't cover enhancements, so people are welcome to add enhancements that they feel go well with the paths, or maybe weapons/items that work really well with the path.

Allow me to contradict you there Tolero, but a discussion page is NOT a good place for such a discussion to take place. Unless Turbine feels like having their feedback given in the worse places they could ask for. Think of the debates that happens here, but now pick a poor interface and give everyone the ability to edit each other's speech. (That is visible in the history of the conversation, but someone has to verify it...)

Also, take into consideration that this place will:

be visited by fewer people than the forums, and thus will gather less feedback.
not be viewed by those who browse the paths.
not be known by new players. Heck, many of them won't know of the forums.

If Turbine wants feedback on this, it should be on the forums.

If you don't want any, then please let us know. At least it would save us time.

Sorry if it sounds a bit harsh but I find that a bit odd of a suggestion.

PS: Thank you for the parsers.

EKKM
10-30-2008, 11:58 AM
Human Stalwart Soldier: Good feat selection for a sword and board, CE, toughness dodge, PA cleave, G Cleave Stunning blow. Little surprised to not see the sheild mastery feats.

Skills though: 17 ranks in repair? I hope that is at least supposed to be heal, it more than th WF stalwart has.

JetEskimo
10-30-2008, 11:58 AM
I looked at the three bard paths. I beat my head against the desk. I cried a little inside.(In a manly way, of course) So, where's the appropriate place to offer suggestions on the builds?

Just looked at the Warchanter path... base 10 CON. Pity the fool who makes a the "recommended" Elf one, starting off with 8 con. I can understand a maxed CHA for the others to some extent, but gotta push some over to CON on a Warchanter build. Also, why Masters Touch as the second 1st level spell? So many better things to take there.

Scared now to look at the others.

Borror0
10-30-2008, 12:00 PM
Skills though: 17 ranks in repair? I hope that is at least supposed to be heal, it more than th WF stalwart has.
Skill selection is horrible for about every melee classes I have met thus far.

Most don't have Jump. All of them got Intimidate, even if it this their only skill. Oh, and it's a cross-class at the same time...

Tolero
10-30-2008, 12:02 PM
Allow me to contradict you there Tolero, but a discussion page is NOT a good place for such a discussion to take place. Unless Turbine feels like having their feedback given in the worse places they could ask for. Think of the debates that happens here, but now pick a poor interface and give everyone the ability to edit each other's speech. (That is visible in the history of the conversation, but someone has to verify it...)

Also, take into consideration that this place will:

be visited by fewer people than the forums, and thus will gather less feedback.
not be viewed by those who browse the paths.
not be known by new players. Heck, many of them won't know of the forums.

If Turbine wants feedback on this, it should be on the forums.

If you don't want any, then please let us know. At least it would save us time.

Sorry if it sounds a bit harsh but I find that a bit odd of a suggestion.

PS: Thank you for the parsers.

Either place is fine. Any shenanigans that happen in the Compendium are tied to your forum account, and can be reported the same as they can be on the forums.

Capstern
10-30-2008, 12:04 PM
Tolero calls shenanigans!!!!

Mulligans too

Solmage
10-30-2008, 12:08 PM
What I was mainly crying about was a Warchanter starting with an 18 Charisma. There's no going back from that once it is chosen at character creation. In fact, the Warchanter had the exact same stats as Virtuoso, so I can hope there was a mixup somewhere in there.

Egads. Yes, that has to be a bit of a mixup. Since I assume it's going to be a two hander path, may I suggest this 28 pt layout?

16, 10, 16, 8, 8, 14 as base stats, tweaked to race of course. Also, you REALLY want to have stunning blow at lower levels where it's a lot more useful, than as a level 16 feat, and power attack is not so useful at low levels but great at high levels.

So with the chosen feats, just re-arrange them:
1) stunning blow
3) power attack
6) cleave (cleave is fun at low levels)
9) extend (haste and such)
12) Improved crit whatever (I recommend blunt for a stunning blow focused bard, but sword of shadows and such are fun)
15) toughness (I don't see the point of weapon focus on a bard, but hey if you insist you can add it here)

This is by no means the ideal quintessential bard, but I think it will be a heck of a lot more enjoyable for someone looking for a workable warchanter bard.

Borror0
10-30-2008, 12:09 PM
Either place is fine. Any shenanigans that happen in the Compendium are tied to your forum account, and can be reported the same as they can be on the forums.
I know, but will the Developers revisit the builds with our feedback?

These builds could be better. A lot.

There are choices that will be questioned easily by many knowledgeable player. A warchanter starting with 18 Cha is one of them, as Freeman pointed out. But it's not the only problem. Given the lack of ability to respec, many of these questionable choices are problematic.

There are choices that can be understood like, for example, picking up Diehard. It's not a really great feat, but since your concern is the new player experience it can be understood and changed back. However, in some cases, those cannot be changed. If it's done, you are stuck with it. Rerolling is not a fun experience for anyone. Also, an even better build would allow them to enjoy the content even better.

NPE was a good step forward. But it could use some tweaking.

Ustice
10-30-2008, 12:12 PM
Better yet, if the paths were customizable, that would be even better, and would be used by even vet players.

Borror0
10-30-2008, 12:15 PM
Oh, if anyone wants a good laugh, the bastion of the outlands (http://compendium.ddo.com/index.php/Path:Bastion_of_the_Outlands_(Human_Profile)) is a funny one.

Stats:

16 Str
10 Dex
18 Con
8 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

Feats:

1. Toughness
1. Toughness
3. Power Attack
6. Toughness
9. Sap
12. Toughness
15. Stunning Blow
Skills:

Heal
Listen
Jump
Intimidate


EDIT:
That is the human path. The WF path (http://compendium.ddo.com/index.php/Path:Bastion_of_the_Outlands_(Warforged_Profile)) is the suggested one. (Why not, when you are gimped better be hard to be healed as well.)

The WF path loses two toughness. One because of the loss of the human feat and the other for adamantine body.

EKKM
10-30-2008, 12:16 PM
lol - even the blaster sorc took haste and resist energy at level 7 - and some of you say they didnt listen to us when doing these.

Comments on the feats though, most are good or standard at least. but taking both Combat casting and mobile spellcasting? I'm not sure one of them is necessary, both are definately not when quicken spell accomplishes the objective of either and is more versatile.

Tolero
10-30-2008, 12:17 PM
Well keep in mind that paths are meant for novices. As you get to know the game (which comes with playing) more and more of the game's features become understood by the new person. As you go, and now that you can see the full path, if you're approaching a point where it's like "eeew at level 3 the path picked X when I would have liked Y" ... leave the path. It's perfectly acceptable.

Ultimately Paths are meant for inexperienced users to learn the ropes. We don't want to just shove a mountain bike in their hands... they need to master the training wheels first :)

Post Script: There's also nothing wrong with using the Path as a rough blue print and using it to help you build in the "customize" window, changing the parts you didn't agree with. I'm sure users can put in their own build versions of the paths, and all of this will be a great help for a new player

EKKM
10-30-2008, 12:18 PM
Oh, if anyone wants a good laugh, the bastion of the outlands (http://compendium.ddo.com/index.php/Path:Bastion_of_the_Outlands_(Human_Profile)) is a funny one.

Stats:

16 Str
10 Dex
18 Con
8 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

Feats:

1. Toughness
1. Toughness
3. Power Attack
6. Toughness
9. Sap
12. Toughness
15. Stunning Blow
Skills:

Heal
Listen
Jump
Intimidate


I've seen afew of that type running around in game - must be based on an actual build (except for sap, thats just weird).

Borror0
10-30-2008, 12:20 PM
I've seen afew of that type running around in game - must be based on an actual build (except for sap, thats just weird).
Maybe. But those are extremely GIMPED.

Oh, I will have more HP so that I can kill stuff longer and require more of the healer's SP and money...

Solmage
10-30-2008, 12:21 PM
I know, but will the Developers revisit the builds with our feedback?

These builds could be better. A lot.

There are choices that can be understood like, for example, picking up Diehard. It's not a really great feat, but since your concern is the new player experience it can be understood and changed back. [...] NPE was a good step forward. But it could use some tweaking.

I agree. I don't think new players need uber optimized perfect builds. But they need SOLID builds that they can enjoy without rerolling. And a melee two handed weapon character with a D6 base for hps and a 10 con is simply not solid. Heck it's BARELY playable.

Just make sure that you guys at Turbine at least revisit stat allocation and alignment which are the two things players can't change afterwards. It would also help if you implemented my suggestion of allowing to select a given path but customize it's starting stats and alignment.

Borror0
10-30-2008, 12:21 PM
Ultimately Paths are meant for inexperienced users to learn the ropes. We don't want to just shove a mountain bike in their hands... they need to master the training wheels first :)
I understand that Tolero, which is why I won't make a fuss about something like Diehard.

However, there are unjustifiable mistakes.

Borror0
10-30-2008, 12:23 PM
Just make sure that you guys at Turbine at least revisit stat allocation and alignment which are the two things players can't change afterwards.
Adds skills to that.

Oh, and at least give that barbarian Improved Critical something if you want it to stay that gimped. Not SAP! :eek:

EKKM
10-30-2008, 12:25 PM
Well keep in mind that paths are meant for novices. As you get to know the game (which comes with playing) more and more of the game's features become understood by the new person. As you go, and now that you can see the full path, if you're approaching a point where it's like "eeew at level 3 the path picked X when I would have liked Y" ... leave the path. It's perfectly acceptable.

Ultimately Paths are meant for inexperienced users to learn the ropes. We don't want to just shove a mountain bike in their hands... they need to master the training wheels first :)

Post Script: There's also nothing wrong with using the Path as a rough blue print and using it to help you build in the "customize" window, changing the parts you didn't agree with. I'm sure users can put in their own build versions of the paths, and all of this will be a great help for a new player

Most of the ones I have seen are decent I think and, with a few exceptions, most of the builds will be servicable as long as they are used. I am giving positive feedback as well, but it is just human and forum nature to highlight the negative. Also, we are hoping some of the obvious oversights (like the human fighter with 19 skill points in repair) can be fixed. Maybe that one just wasn't copied correctly to the compendium.

Angelus_dead
10-30-2008, 12:26 PM
- Paths are now visible in the Compendium! Follow along with the progression of your path!
1. If you had done that prior to the release of module 8, you could have gotten feedback in time to avoid going live with numerous embarrassing errors. (Which may become unfixable pain for new players who use this system)

2. The template for paths would be more useful if it focused on showing the choices made, instead of devoting such prominence to granted class feats. In particular, having to click-click-click through feat-by-level instead of having them all on one page is no good.

3. Many people have pointed out an especially bad mistake in the suggestions, and here's mine: the Inevitable Dominion monk path (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Path:The_Path_of_Shadow) actually makes the claim "You will be able to do a lot of damage and take on more enemies over time than the other monks". That's not just wrong, but completely the opposite of the truth. Not only is Inevitable Dominion gimped in general (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=161690), but it especially does not have the long-term staying power of a self-healing monk.

Solmage
10-30-2008, 12:28 PM
I understand that Tolero, which is why I won't make a fuss about something like Diehard.

However, there are unjustifiable mistakes.

Ehh the barbarian one isn't HORRIBLY gimped.. you just need to switch 18 str with 16 con (I mean, really, with more than 1 toughness even a super hp barb has more than enough!) and one improved crit thrown into the mix and you have a reasonably workable barb... that will suck vs the optimized two weapon fighting ones, but will still be able to handle high level content.

EKKM
10-30-2008, 12:30 PM
Maybe. But those are extremely GIMPED.

Oh, I will have more HP so that I can kill stuff longer and require more of the healer's SP and money...

Was meant to be a joke. Sounded funny in my head as I wrote it anyway. I agree wholeheartedly that is not a build I would suggest, endorse or recommend in anyway.

The general idea isnt horrible though the implementation is. Drop some toughness, add IC slash, Imp THF etc, drop sap.. and it becomes a playable build, not optimal, but pretty survivable until about level 8-10.

Borror0
10-30-2008, 12:31 PM
[...] that will suck vs the optimized two weapon fighting ones, but will still be able to handle high level content.
Yeah, but that is because barbarian are really newbie friendly.

Still, the very concept of that build is horrible. They would be better leaving the two other path and removing that one. It would help new players.

Solmage
10-30-2008, 12:32 PM
1. If you had done that prior to the release of module 8, you could have gotten feedback in time to avoid going live with numerous embarrassing errors. (Which may become unfixable pain for new players who use this system)

2. The template for paths would be more useful if it focused on showing the choices made, instead of devoting such prominence to granted class feats. In particular, having to click-click-click through feat-by-level instead of having them all on one page is no good.

3. Many people have pointed out an especially bad mistake in the suggestions, and here's mine: the Inevitable Dominion monk path (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Path:The_Path_of_Shadow) actually makes the claim "You will be able to do a lot of damage and take on more enemies over time than the other monks". That's not just wrong, but completely the opposite of the truth. Not only is Inevitable Dominion gimped in general (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=161690), but it especially does not have the long-term staying power of a self-healing monk.

Sigh, I'm afraid I forgot to comment on Risia when I saw that one, but yeah that description is horribly horribly misleading.

It should read: "You will do less DPS, have less useful buffs, less staying power, and in general be gimped. Please do not choose this" :p

(Ok, funny aside, it really should read the opposite of what it reads now :))

Solmage
10-30-2008, 12:34 PM
Yeah, but that is because barbarian are really newbie friendly.

Still, the very concept of that build is horrible. They would be better leaving the two other path and removing that one. It would help new players.

Hmmm, perhaps. Or at least only allowing humans and adding the healing enhancements :)

Edit:


Adds skills to that.

Oh yeah, forgot about those. Yes please.

EKKM
10-30-2008, 12:37 PM
Human whilrwind fighter looks good. Feat selection is good all the way through although cleave on a high level TWF isnt a good idea. Could also use more ranks in jump.

Edit: Elamentalist also looks pretty good.

Solmage
10-30-2008, 12:41 PM
- Are you excited about Hirelings? You can now get a sneak peak at Hirelings in the Compendium! See their commands, their spells, their feats, and much more!

May I make the suggestion of sorting hirelings by level, and not by name? It would make the first page a LOT more useful.

Tolero
10-30-2008, 12:44 PM
May I make the suggestion of sorting hirelings by level, and not by name? It would make the first page a LOT more useful.

Let me go back and check, I could have sworn there was was level sorted one, and I know the class sorted are there. Will forward that along.

Solmage
10-30-2008, 12:46 PM
Oh by the way, just to make sure my position is clear, I think the NPE, overall, is FANTASTIC and these 'gripes' are just there to help make it as good as we can. Really, kudos to you guys. I specially loved the quests and named items and how much fun I had doing it all.

Borror0
10-30-2008, 12:50 PM
Oh by the way, just to make sure my position is clear, I think the NPE, overall, is FANTASTIC and these 'gripes' are just there to help make it as good as we can. Really, kudos to you guys. I specially loved the quests and named items and how much fun I had doing it all.
I'll be more negative about it. There is a lot of unexploited potential in there.

But still a good move.

Solmage
10-30-2008, 12:52 PM
I'll be more negative about it. There is a lot of unexploited potential in there.

But still a good move.

Yes, I kinda read that between the lines of your posts, so I wanted to clarify my own position. :)

Just because it can always be better doesn't make the existing stuff not fantastic, specially compared to anything else we had or to the new player experience I've had in other games.

Borror0
10-30-2008, 12:56 PM
Just because it can always be better doesn't make the existing stuff not fantastic[...]
Funnily, some people don't get that.

I got compared to an "husband that beat up his wife but says he love"s her this week... -_-

Capstern
10-30-2008, 02:01 PM
Anyone else find the descriptions of feats to be woefully lacking sometimes

This is supposed to be the information source but descriptions like

"increases the number of attacks while using two weapons" to well be sort of lacking in detail?

I would rather see it increases you number of attacks by # (where # is the actualmath)

I find it frustrating at so many generalities and then I have to harrass other players who have worked out the math

is this generalization on purpose?

Solmage
10-30-2008, 04:55 PM
Funnily, some people don't get that.

I got compared to an "husband that beat up his wife but says he love"s her this week... -_-

Wait, wait, wait... you mean you don't?? :eek:

Hum.. devs.. Tolero.. we may have to edit http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/ForumUser:Borror0 ...

:p

Frodo_Lives
10-30-2008, 10:24 PM
I really think that, for the most part, the NPE was done very very well. Rolled a new character and I have had more fun running the low level stuff than I have on dozens of characters previously.

I will agree that some of the recommended builds have a lot of off the wall, off the beaten path sort of choices. Experienced players may want to do something a little different but the whole point of build choices is to give a new player a workable, viable, cookie cutter character.

guim
11-18-2008, 11:27 PM
Human Stalwart Soldier: Good feat selection for a sword and board, CE, toughness dodge, PA cleave, G Cleave Stunning blow. Little surprised to not see the sheild mastery feats.

Skills though: 17 ranks in repair? I hope that is at least supposed to be heal, it more than th WF stalwart has.

Repair is right! I have gone to level 4 with the Stalwart Soldier and it keeps giving me repair and I'm human! Needless to say I'm done with that guy.....delete! What a waste of 8hrs.

I hope you Dev's fix that little issue.

Borror0
11-19-2008, 06:02 AM
Repair is right! I have gone to level 4 with the Stalwart Soldier and it keeps giving me repair and I'm human! Needless to say I'm done with that guy.....delete! What a waste of 8hrs.

I hope you Dev's fix that little issue.
Personally, I love how they gave every single melee path Intimidate.

While I do agree that it's an incredibly powerful spell, having it cross-classed as your only skill on a DPS paladin might not be a good idea... nor is it when you are preferring Intimidate to Jump and Balance on every character. It's useful and powerful, but there is a limit!