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EightyFour
08-29-2008, 08:45 PM
I have a suggestion for end rewards, as I currently understand it, games are supposed to reward you for competing something, it maybe a new weapon of some sort in some games, or you unlock a new level or you even get some item or health gain.

Currently in DDO you a rewarded from completing a quest by xp and an end reward as well as some chests.

But what happens when a character is level capped? The xp no longer becomes a reward and the chests don't always give you what you are looking for, a lot of times they don't give you anything you are looking for, and the end rewards are about as good as the chests.

So what I'm thinking to help a little with this is have a cash reward at the end of the quest, either you take an item, or if there is nothing that you can use, sell, or trade, have a cash pile listed for the full amount of the item the is worth the most. Or just a static amount that is worth more than 35% of the full item worth of the most expensive item.

sirgog
08-29-2008, 10:00 PM
...Or just a static amount that is worth more than 35% of the full item worth of the most expensive item.

It's called looting the Major Mneumonic Potion that drops as an end reward a lot of the time, then selling it on the Auction House for 8000 plat.

EightyFour
08-29-2008, 11:54 PM
It's called looting the Major Mneumonic Potion that drops as an end reward a lot of the time, then selling it on the Auction House for 8000 plat.

Oh...I didn't realize that Major Mneumonic Potion are a guaranteed drop, my lists must be bugged. Maybe I should send in a bug report on this?

kaelis
08-30-2008, 12:18 AM
no offence but his post was more then clear he said a lot... which is true, doing high end quests more often then not you will see a major pot at the bottom of your list

sirgog
08-30-2008, 12:31 AM
no offence but his post was more then clear he said a lot... which is true, doing high end quests more often then not you will see a major pot at the bottom of your list

Yep. They drop pretty often if you play a character that's got more levels of Clr Wiz or Sorc than any other class.

Angelus_dead
08-30-2008, 12:52 AM
Oh...I didn't realize that Major Mneumonic Potion are a guaranteed drop, my lists must be bugged. Maybe I should send in a bug report on this?
They're not guaranteed, but if you're a spellcaster in class-specific mode they appear over 20% of the time.

EightyFour
08-30-2008, 07:36 PM
My point here is that they don't drop all the time, it's random so it's great when they do and the drop rate is great.

But my point is when you do get a list full of junk, what is it that you do? Do you pick the best or most expensive item and than vendor trash it?

I'm just guessing here, but I'm think you do, that's what the majority of players I know do.

So I suggest a static reward, a.k.a. a reward that is always listed and available as a reward, a stack of money, that's what it's going to become anyway, might as well get more cash as a choice on your list if everything is junk, otherwise most people are just left disappointed, do I think this is going to make everyone happy? No, but I think it would be a better reward than most of the items that pop up on end reward lists. As for major pots, if I see them I send them to my cleric or one of my two casters.

jmelanie7
08-31-2008, 07:39 AM
Oh yeah, so farmers will just have more plats ... nice!!

EightyFour
08-31-2008, 05:07 PM
Oh yeah, so farmers will just have more plats ... nice!!

Yeah, cause I'm sure there running out of it right? I mean what's going to happen here they gonna lower there price on plat so more people are going to buy. OMG, like, the plat farmers don't have a huge supply, but I know several players that could use it, but hey lets keep them without plat. that way they can get tired of being poor and they can go buy some plat.

Great idea, I'm glad you thought of it.

woodrick
08-31-2008, 05:31 PM
people are poor?
i don't know of people that are poor and need to buy plat, i know lazy people buy it so they don't have to do anything but still have the gear they want. if u have a capped toon and can not make plat on your own then u r doing something seriously wrong.

anyway wouldn't taking the item worth the most ie. 162000gp weapon that drops as an end reward trading or mailing it to your haggle toon make you more money than a static cash drop? (my lvl12 bard would make roughly 4kpp selling that item. off the top of my head, at class so can't check to get the correct amount)

so basically if u are having trouble making plat go lvl a haggle bard, there are a few threads in the bard forums on builds :)

as for the end rewards yeah i agree alot of the time i get junk, but i pick the highest value item and mail to my bard to sell. is exactly the same as getting a static cash drop.

EightyFour
09-01-2008, 12:19 AM
people are poor?
i don't know of people that are poor and need to buy plat, i know lazy people buy it so they don't have to do anything but still have the gear they want. if u have a capped toon and can not make plat on your own then u r doing something seriously wrong.

anyway wouldn't taking the item worth the most ie. 162000gp weapon that drops as an end reward trading or mailing it to your haggle toon make you more money than a static cash drop? (my lvl12 bard would make roughly 4kpp selling that item. off the top of my head, at class so can't check to get the correct amount)

so basically if u are having trouble making plat go lvl a haggle bard, there are a few threads in the bard forums on builds :)

as for the end rewards yeah i agree alot of the time i get junk, but i pick the highest value item and mail to my bard to sell. is exactly the same as getting a static cash drop.

As far as the haggle skill go's it's 1% increase for every 4 points you have into it, starting from 12.5% from a regular vendor,
So if you had an 80 haggle than you would get 32.5% of the item's worth, if your selling to a broker it's 15% so about 35% of the total item worth. To get full value you would have to have a haggle of 340, I don't think that anyone has there skill that high.

So it's not the same as getting a static cash drop unless the static cash drop is the same percentage as your haggle skill/4 + 15%.

As for being lazy, is that what you think this game is about? Work? I thought game's were around to have fun when your not working, which comes back to my point, this is a game and is meant to be fun, is it fun to get an end reward that has almost next to no value? Do you hope when you go talk to the guy that gives you the end reward that he well give you something you can junk? Or do you hope he can give you something to use?

It's a question of is the end reward a real reward or are we just going through lists of junk hoping for something good?

Borror0
09-01-2008, 03:12 AM
I know several players that could use it, but hey lets keep them without plat. That way they can get tired of being poor and they can go buy some plat.

Making money easier to get will only devalue it. The poor won't be richer.

EightyFour
09-01-2008, 05:18 AM
Making money easier to get will only devalue it. The poor won't be richer.

I believe your right, but I think it is more a psychological game, would you suggest something else besides cash that could be of less value and still give the player a feeling of reward? Or even something of equal value?

Boldrin
09-01-2008, 05:29 AM
I say just give everyone with a capped toon 4 million plat so the economics of the game go out of whack. God forbid people don't always get what they want in a chest. ..... Have you ever played pen and paper?? lol

BurningDownTheHouse
09-01-2008, 05:31 AM
Making money easier to get will only devalue it. The poor won't be richer.

True to an extent.
People will have more money to buy supplies...
On the other hand you can just make vendor items cheaper :P

EightyFour
09-01-2008, 05:37 AM
I say just give everyone with a capped toon 4 million plat so the economics of the game go out of whack. God forbid people don't always get what they want in a chest. ..... Have you ever played pen and paper?? lol

I think giving everyone 4 mill plat for having a capped toon is a bit much, and what purpose does it serve?

Also I don't think you should always get what you want from a chest, but how would you feel if you opened a chest and there was always nothing in it? Would you still run for that chest or skip it? Plus for that matter, what are we talking about chests for, I was speaking of end rewards, so I suggest if you want to talk about chest, you can start your own thread about it.

Also as another matter, time to get our minds of money here for a second and think end rewards.

Borror0
09-01-2008, 05:47 AM
I believe your right, but I think it is more a psychological game, would you suggest something else besides cash that could be of less value and still give the player a feeling of reward? Or even something of equal value?

Why would every end reward be good? I mean, it's getting **** that makes getting something good fun.

Besides, you already get something. It's vendor trash (ie money).

darkrune
09-01-2008, 07:15 AM
It's called looting the Major Mneumonic Potion that drops as an end reward a lot of the time, then selling it on the Auction House for 8000 plat.


My motto... When in doubt, Pot it out!!!!

EightyFour
09-01-2008, 05:12 PM
Why would every end reward be good? I mean, it's getting **** that makes getting something good fun.

Besides, you already get something. It's vendor trash (ie money).

Maybe for those that are bitter and they want to complain about their **** rewards.

Plus the fact that you call it trash shows what it is, we don't get end rewards, we get end trash.

EightyFour
09-01-2008, 05:13 PM
My motto... When in doubt, Pot it out!!!!

Sorry, I don't smoke that stuff.

Borror0
09-01-2008, 05:26 PM
Maybe for those that are bitter and they want to complain about their **** rewards.

Plus the fact that you call it trash shows what it is, we don't get end rewards, we get end trash.

Sorry, but trash is always going to exist.

Vorpal? They used to be expensive, Now, everyone and their grandma got one.
+6 item? They used to be expensive. Now, if not on a ring...

Make something common, it'll become trash soon enough. Some people will always complain.

You can't make them happy.

EightyFour
09-02-2008, 01:10 AM
Sorry, but trash is always going to exist.

Vorpal? They used to be expensive, Now, everyone and their grandma got one.
+6 item? They used to be expensive. Now, if not on a ring...

Make something common, it'll become trash soon enough. Some people will always complain.

You can't make them happy.

Wow, you call that stuff trash?

Also just because something is common doesn't mean it's trash, I mean I still see a lot of people running around with the minos legions helm, is that trash?

I don't know about helping you to stop complaining if that is your standard, I would say that everything must be trash to you.

I don't think anyone could make you happy, but I know there are changes that could be made to make me happy.

Borror0
09-02-2008, 08:55 AM
I don't know about helping you to stop complaining if that is your standard, I would say that everything must be trash to you.

I don't think anyone could make you happy, but I know there are changes that could be made to make me happy.

You got it backward.

Most of that is not trash, but yes I have vendored a few +6 Cha Cloak of [something], +6 Str Belt of [something] and a fair deal of Vorpal Bastard Swords. What I am saying is that they are really got common. Whatever you increase will make more common, reawrding, it'll come to a poitn where no one will really use it and those people will, sooner or later, complain. Givign freebees to everyone has consequences, which you have to analyze.

Right now, what is the difference between receiving a ML 14 weapon or the equivalent amount of plat? None.

GrayOldDruid
09-02-2008, 09:01 AM
Yep. They drop pretty often UNLESS you play a character that's got more levels of Clr Wiz or Sorc than any other class.

Fixed that...

rawfocat
09-02-2008, 09:20 AM
just because something is common doesn't mean it's trash, I mean I still see a lot of people running around with the minos legions helm, is that trash?

I don't know about helping you to stop complaining if that is your standard, I would say that everything must be trash to you.

The main issue here is the gap between the casual player and the power gamer. This gap is further increased by both the lack of new content and the current high-end content being both gear and resource dependant. I played for about 2-2.5 hours on my capped barb this weekend and I made about 35k plat. One 18k plat shroud run and 2 hard completions of vale quests, plus a couple rare encounter chests on the way out. Passed the items to a high haggle character and that was that. i am sure a player focusing on making money could do much better than that, this was just playing with my guildies and a fast shroud run.

There is a real gap between the casual players income and a power gamer. If they gave you a cash end reward then I would have made even more money and I would now be able to pay even more for the 3-5 items I still want. Increasing the cash flow is not the issue.

OP, I am fine with a cash reward, but if it is worth more than vendoring the highest value item, then all it will do is make both the poor and the rich increase the same amount of money. All this will do is make the bar for rich higher and the same people will qualify.

One thing I would like to see is getting common consumables as end rewards. Cure Serious, haste pots in stacks of 10-30 for melee, silver, holy arrows for rangers, mana pots 20% of the time for casters, heal scrolls for clerics. I think this would save a casual player a lot of money and a power gamer could care less. As always this list would be useless for certain builds and play-styles, but you could always ignore the list like you do today.

EightyFour
09-02-2008, 03:47 PM
You got it backward.

Most of that is not trash, but yes I have vendored a few +6 Cha Cloak of [something], +6 Str Belt of [something] and a fair deal of Vorpal Bastard Swords. What I am saying is that they are really got common. Whatever you increase will make more common, reawrding, it'll come to a poitn where no one will really use it and those people will, sooner or later, complain. Givign freebees to everyone has consequences, which you have to analyze.

Right now, what is the difference between receiving a ML 14 weapon or the equivalent amount of plat? None.

Damn forums,

I've already answered this a it decided to delete it, here we go again.

What your saying is the power gamers 5% ruin this game for the casual players 20%, so the power players are as bad for this game a plat farmers if not worse?

I don't see how this has anything to do with what I'm talking about.

Your also saying by giving plat out, 3 times the value of what it can be vendored for, that we well destroy the value of plat to the point that no one wants it?

I think this is a little extreme.

Beherit_Baphomar
09-02-2008, 03:54 PM
They're not guaranteed, but if you're a spellcaster in class-specific mode they appear over 20% of the time.

Or a barbarian.....

EightyFour
09-02-2008, 03:55 PM
The main issue here is the gap between the casual player and the power gamer. This gap is further increased by both the lack of new content and the current high-end content being both gear and resource dependant. I played for about 2-2.5 hours on my capped barb this weekend and I made about 35k plat. One 18k plat shroud run and 2 hard completions of vale quests, plus a couple rare encounter chests on the way out. Passed the items to a high haggle character and that was that. i am sure a player focusing on making money could do much better than that, this was just playing with my guildies and a fast shroud run.

There is a real gap between the casual players income and a power gamer. If they gave you a cash end reward then I would have made even more money and I would now be able to pay even more for the 3-5 items I still want. Increasing the cash flow is not the issue.

OP, I am fine with a cash reward, but if it is worth more than vendoring the highest value item, then all it will do is make both the poor and the rich increase the same amount of money. All this will do is make the bar for rich higher and the same people will qualify.

One thing I would like to see is getting common consumables as end rewards. Cure Serious, haste pots in stacks of 10-30 for melee, silver, holy arrows for rangers, mana pots 20% of the time for casters, heal scrolls for clerics. I think this would save a casual player a lot of money and a power gamer could care less. As always this list would be useless for certain builds and play-styles, but you could always ignore the list like you do today.

So your suggesting incresing the amount of junk we see as an end rewards, you got to remember your not going to get what you want in the end rewards list, so by adding vendor items, your just adding more vendor trash for some, or taking out the fair value of the item you should be getting. I persona would be happy with a plat reward of 50% to 100% of the highest items worth as a constant, because guess what, not everyone is going to take the plat reward, but when they get nothing but trash as an end reward and no major mana potion, guess what, the plat is the third best option. But it's not going to be taking all the time if someone thinks they can get more for an item on there list on the auction house, so I think the only fear here is that most people are going to take the plat reward as we all know that the plat is going to be worth more than the items we have on the lists.

This alone points out the lack of good end rewards we have.

Borror0
09-02-2008, 03:55 PM
What your saying is the power gamers 5% ruin this game for the casual players 20%, so the power players are as bad for this game a plat farmers if not worse?

I don't see where you're getting this, or the point you're trying to make.


Your also saying by giving plat out, 3 times the value of what it can be vendored for, that we well destroy the value of plat to the point that no one wants it?

That's not what I've said.

If you make it three times easier to get plat, well plat will be worth about three times less. Basic economy.
(It won't be three times, in this instance, but I had to put a number on it.)

Laith
09-02-2008, 04:00 PM
If you make it three times easier to get plat, well plat will be worth about three times less. Basic economy.
(It won't be three times, in this instance, but I had to put a number on it.)indeed. the amount of money we get from selling crappy items is already figured into the equation.

Everytime i see a complaint about bad loot, i'm reminded that the solution was already mentioned by devs: deconstructing items into crafting ingredients.

Milolyen
09-02-2008, 04:19 PM
The powergamer will always have more than the casual gamer and if you are a casual gamer comparing yourself to a powergamer then you will always be miserable.

Increasing the amount of plat in the game will do nothing for the "feeling" of being poor. Look at it this way, you have 100kpp between your 3 chars however the person over here has 900kpp on each of his 3 main chars. All this would do ... that person with 100kpp between his 3 chars will now have 100kpp on each of his chars but the other guy with 900kpp on each of his 3 main chars has now got 4 char's with 900kpp. You know what that will do to the price for the "uber" items on the AH? It will only make them sell for more so while the casual gamer will have a total of 300kpp that power gamer will have 3.6mpp and those "uber" items on the ah will still be out of reach to that casual gamer. If you are loosing money on consumables then you need to rethink your current strategies. Increasing the amount of currency in circulation will never solve the gap between the have and have not's.

Milolyen

Borror0
09-02-2008, 04:23 PM
Increasing the amount of plat in the game will do nothing for the "feeling" of being poor. Look at it this way, you have 100kpp between your 3 chars however the person over here has 900kpp on each of his 3 main chars. All this would do ... that person with 100kpp between his 3 chars will now have 100kpp on each of his chars but the other guy with 900kpp on each of his 3 main chars has now got 4 char's with 900kpp.

Not exactly, because there are costs which players have no effect on (scrolls, potions, etc.) but that does not make of this proposition something desirable.

Venar
09-02-2008, 04:35 PM
I think the OP as a valid point (getting bad reward is not fun, specially when you didnt need the XP, the favor, or the quest).
But i dont think a cash reward would solve the issue.
I suggest this:

At the bottom of the rewards list, there is always a signet of honor (Signet of Honor, lvl 1-4 quest, Signet of Good Honor, lvl 5-9 quest, Signet of Great Honor, lvl 10-14 quest, Signet of High Honor, lvl 15-16 quest), which means that the player passes on the reward. He did it just because its the honorable thing to do.

Then, put an NPC in the game that will trade 5 Signets of Honor for a list of end rewards (like the bronze token guy).

So basically, after 5 bad end rewards, the player can have a chance at another.
It also means, that presented with junk, a player must decide: take highest money value, take the pot, or take the 1/5 of a new chance at loot.

EightyFour
09-02-2008, 10:14 PM
I think the OP as a valid point (getting bad reward is not fun, specially when you didnt need the XP, the favor, or the quest).
But i dont think a cash reward would solve the issue.
I suggest this:

At the bottom of the rewards list, there is always a signet of honor (Signet of Honor, lvl 1-4 quest, Signet of Good Honor, lvl 5-9 quest, Signet of Great Honor, lvl 10-14 quest, Signet of High Honor, lvl 15-16 quest), which means that the player passes on the reward. He did it just because its the honorable thing to do.

Then, put an NPC in the game that will trade 5 Signets of Honor for a list of end rewards (like the bronze token guy).

So basically, after 5 bad end rewards, the player can have a chance at another.
It also means, that presented with junk, a player must decide: take highest money value, take the pot, or take the 1/5 of a new chance at loot.

Now here is an idea, and someone that got what I'm talking about I hope, I don't care about how this well affect the AH, I don't care how this well affect the value of plat. mainly because I don't think there well be a huge difference, I don't care about who is rich and who is poor, I care about getting a good end reward.

I think the badges of honor maybe a good idea, however I think that if I'm just going to get a new end reward list that is just as bad than I don't like it, I would say that they would have to be used to gain something that maybe better, maybe even roll them into the new crafting system, roll them into money, roll them into something I feel I did something and now I'm being rewarded for it, don't throw junk at me and call it a reward. I don't like the idea of dumpster diving for a reward.

EightyFour
09-02-2008, 10:30 PM
I don't see where you're getting this, or the point you're trying to make.

Sorry, my original post didn't show up so I'm sorry that this got a little messed up, what I was saying is that about 5% of the curent market is power gamers, about 20% are casual gamers in the game market, these are MMO players, 5% of the gamers or lets say 20% of the gamers in this game would be say power gamers, they collect more loot, more plat and play more than anyone else, which means they generate more plat. in less time, the 80% generates less plat but maybe between the 80% and 20% there is a 50%/50% balance of plat, over time though the power gamers well end up generating even more plat, and if the balance shifts to say 20% of the population having 80% of the plat in world, and 80% of the casual gamers have 20% of the plat in the world, than the power gamers well spend larger sums, but because of the amount of plat in the world the over all value is less, which means the players with less plat have less buying power, and the power gamers have more buying power but at less overall.

But I don't really care if someone has less plat or more plat, the point here is that plat is worth something, some of the gear you get you couldn't give it away because pack space is more valuable than the item, the items worth is so low that if you told people they could have a level 14 or even 16 for that matter for free they wouldn't take it other than to junk it for cash, which mean's the cash is worth more the the item, which I would say that a plat reward would be more of a reward than getting some of the items we get, I don't see getting an item to junk as a reward, I see it as junking useless gear for cash.




That's not what I've said.

If you make it three times easier to get plat, well plat will be worth about three times less. Basic economy.
(It won't be three times, in this instance, but I had to put a number on it.)

It depends on how much plat is already in the world, at this point I don't think it's going to make a huge impact on the value of plat. Sure the AH value's well go up, but you now have more plat to spend on such items, so it's going to stay the same, the numbers well change, but the amount your paying well stay the same.

Borror0
09-03-2008, 12:20 AM
So basically, after 5 bad end rewards, the player can have a chance at another.
It also means, that presented with junk, a player must decide: take highest money value, take the pot, or take the 1/5 of a new chance at loot.

That's a way much better system! Now, I personally think it's not worth coding, but the concept is way better.


Tan the power gamers well spend larger sums, but because of the amount of plat in the world the over all value is less, which means the players with less plat have less buying power, and the power gamers have more buying power but at less overall.

I know what you're saying! I have exactly said that exactly what I have said here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1847126&postcount=32)! However, increasing the available amount of plat in-game is totally silly. It is not something you should want to do. Actually, we should be disucssing ways to implement monet sinks right now, not the other way around.

It's not good for an economy to have too much of its currency.


I don't see getting an item to junk as a reward, I see it as junking useless gear for cash.

So, you're saying that the plat you get from said item isn't a reward?:confused:


It depends on how much plat is already in the world, at this point I don't think it's going to make a huge impact on the value of plat. Sure the AH value's well go up, but you now have more plat to spend on such items, so it's going to stay the same, the numbers well change, but the amount your paying well stay the same.

So, you're saying 100% of your cash goes to wands, scrolls and the like?

EightyFour
09-03-2008, 03:31 AM
What I'm saying is that people well have more cash overall, the price on something today maybe 40K plat, tomorrow it well be 60K plat, but if the player earns 40K plat in a run today, but does the same run and earns 60K plat tomorrow, than the price really hasn't changed, it's stayed the same.

Yes, and the plat. you get from junking an item is NOT a reward.

Borror0
09-03-2008, 03:39 AM
What I'm saying is that people well have more cash overall, the price on something today maybe 40K plat, tomorrow it well be 60K plat, but if the player earns 40K plat in a run today, but does the same run and earns 60K plat tomorrow, than the price really hasn't changed, it's stayed the same.

So, you don't get why inflation is bad, do you?


Yes, and the plat. you get from junking an item is NOT a reward.

Rationaly explain me why?

EightyFour
09-03-2008, 03:15 PM
So, you don't get why inflation is bad, do you?

It's not bad as long as the rate of income stays the same, what I think you don't understand is economics. But you like to talk about it as if you do, go take a class or two, do some real life economics, than look at game economics, take a class on that too, than come back here.


Rationaly explain me why?

If you don't get it than you never well. I'm sorry I couldn't get through to you and help you understand.

Borror0
09-03-2008, 03:23 PM
It's not bad as long as the rate of income stays the same, what I think you don't understand is economics. But you like to talk about it as if you do, go take a class or two, do some real life economics, than look at game economics, take a class on that too, than come back here.

Nope, the reasons inflation is not a good thing isn't exactly why it's not desirable in RL. Anyway...


If you don't get it than you never well. I'm sorry I couldn't get through to you and help you understand.

You give up when challenged to elaborate. Interesting.

EightyFour
09-03-2008, 04:08 PM
Nope, the reasons inflation is not a good thing isn't exactly why it's not desirable in RL. Anyway...



You give up when challenged to elaborate. Interesting.

I give up because your not worth my time. You have driven my original post off topic, and I let you, but now I'm not going to waste time with you any longer. I'd like to get back to the original topic please.