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Tolero
08-27-2008, 10:01 AM
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Welcome to the Chronicle - a weekly look at what's happening around the forums! Read on for tips, community spotlights, Turbine info, and more!



http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/30/66/71/65/1488.jpg
We'd like to welcome the newest addition to our Fansite listing:
DDO Trader (http://www.ddotrader.com)

DDO Trader features a listing of user-submitted items for trade, sorted by server as well as item type. Players can search by the item, or even search for a specific user. The site allows images to be attached to each ad, and more! Be sure to stop by and give it a try!


For more DDO Fansites, be sure to check out our Fansite List (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Fansite_listing)!

http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/60/12/31/56/1438.jpg


The following guilds are looking for more adventurers. Learn more about them here!


Scale of the Dragon, of the Argonnessen server
Compendium Page: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/SCALE_OF_THE_DRAGON
"Scale is a mix of experienced and inexperienced players. Scale is always looking for good members and we do invite members to the guild once we've run with them. If you are looking to join Scale and haven't had an opportunity to run with us feel free to contact any member via Tell, Mail, or contact us through our website and we will setup a run to see if there is a fit."
Mature Adventurers Club, of the Khyber server
Compendium Page: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Mature_Adventures_Club
Recruitment Thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116316
"We are a group of like minded players who have banded together to form a guild of mature players. We are tolerant of all sorts of builds/style of play, as long as it fits our theme of mature personal behavior. We offer Perma death and RP opportunities(usually on other servers) new groups and themes are forming, check our boards. Our mains all play on Khyber. Our playerbase run the Gambit of styles of play. Some small group raid solely, while others run WW over and over with rerolls. We in the MAC believe you play your character how you want.....see our forums for more info."Freelance Mercenaries, of the Ghallanda server
Compendium Page: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Freelance_Mercenaries
"We are a fun group looking for like minded folks new and experienced alike, if you can take a joke and laugh at yourself as much as the next guildie then we want you." Look for Thoraim or look on the "who" tab for any Freelance Mercenary and they can get you in touch with a recruiter to take you on a test drive."Extreme Explorers, of the Sarlona server
Compendium Page: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Extreme_Explorers
Recruitment Thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116220
"The Exteme Explorers (permadeath) is always looking for fresh new mea... er... faces. For those that don't know we are a permadeath guild. Permadeath is a play style that we choose to challenge ourselves in a game that many loved to play, and still do, in the PnP format. Our objective is to self-impose a stricter standard for ourselves and avoid capitalizing on the game economy and not using raise dead shrines or recalling and re-entering a quest. Unless we have a guilded character that can raise dead in some manner. If interested you can check out our website where you will find more detailed guild laws."Umber Hulks, of the Thelanis server
Compendium Page: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Umber_Hulks
Recruitment Thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=156206
"We are a casual, friendly guild that has been around since the launch of DDO. You wouldn't call us a Raid heavy guild, but we raid and have fun doing it. You wouldn't call us a Role-Playing heavy guild, but we involve ourselves in role-playing and have fun doing it. You wouldn't call us favor grinders, but some nights we grind out favor, and have fun doing it. Some nights we play together exclusively. Some nights we play alone. We are an active friendly group of mature gamers who geniunely enjoy nights we play together. If you're new to the game? New to Thelanis? Looking to meet new people? New friends? Give us a look see. Find us. We're out there playing. Quest with us. Ask about our guild. See if you like us."

Over 500 guilds have pages available in the Compendium! Read more about guilds in the Compendium by clicking here! (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Category:Guild_and_Character_listings_by_server)
Looking for a guild? Looking for recruits? Be sure to visit the Guild Matchup forum (http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=39)!


http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/82/69/28/31/1436.jpg


Looking for a character design? Unsure of which feat to take next? Check out this week's character builds for tips, designs, and other help with your character's advancement!




Featured build: Diplo-tank (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=155724)
Featured build: An Acrobat, a Greensteel Staff, and his Mithril Companion (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=156170)
Featured build: The "Am I a Bard or a Ranger Wannabe?!" Build (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=156403)


For more character builds, Be sure to stop by the Class Discussion forum (http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=21)



http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/46/25/71/19/1489.jpg
Are you a new or returning player seeking help? The Academy highlights community efforts to assist incoming and returning players!


This week we are happy to report that the torch of mentoring is being carried on! Levonestral (http://forums.ddo.com/member.php?u=30536) has taken over the beloved New & Returning Player Mentor Program (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=156855).

The program was originally started by Renegade66 (http://forums.ddo.com/member.php?u=2651), passed on to Jules921 (http://forums.ddo.com/member.php?u=30894), and now Levonestral carries on the tradition! This player-run program was created to allow new and returning players to pair up with player mentors in-game. These mentors offer help to others seeking to learn the ropes of DDO. It also highlights player resources, like the help chat channel of Argonnessen (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=156367). Are you an existing player interested in lending a hand? Are you a new or returning player seeking guidance? Click here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1838957) to get involved!


For more help be sure to visit the Newbie Q&A forum (http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=42) and Game Play Guides (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Category:Game_Play_Guides)






Game Tip of the Week

Did you know you can create your own server-wide chat channels in game? To create your chat channel, type the command /joinchannel and the name of your channel. For example: /joinchannel Alliance
You can create up to four custom channels at one time! For a list of chat channel commands, type /help




http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/45/13/19/58/1435.jpg


The following threads are scheduled to be unstuck on September 1st, 2008 unless they are adopted:


Thread Name: The Lhazaar Bazaar (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=25536)

About the Thread:

Journey back with us to a time before the auction house and mail system in DDO, circa 2006. Scandia and other early fellow players started a tradition of gathering together in-game on a set night of the week for trade with other players! Passed down through a line of players to DZX and server mates, it was a great place to meet with fellow players for fast trades and face-to-face bartering. The addition of the Auction House seemed to have reduced the "need" of the activity, but the advent of the new user created chat channels can help a new generation of players to keep the tradition going!


Interested in adopting a sticky? Learn more by clicking here! (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=151024)


http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/06/65/27/18/1441.jpg


Thanks to all of the players and visitors who stopped by the Turbine Booth at Gencon, and/or attended our player party at Jillian' in Indianapolis! Be sure to visit us at PAX!
Ghost-touch handwraps, and other items fixed in the recent patch, in many cases will need to be placed in a Stone of Change before they will reflect the updates.
Be sure to check the Release Notes (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Module_7_Patch_2_Official) and Known Issues (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=150534) for update 7.0.2 (previously known as 7.1)
Don't forget to take a peek at the Gencon Roundup (http://www.ddo.com/article/989) on DDO.com! You can share your own memories of Gencon by clicking here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=156994)!
Looking for updates and information from Turbine?
You can follow along with the latest Turbine talk right here on the forums! Be sure to visit:
The Dev Tracker (http://forums.ddo.com/turbine_tracker.php?tracker=devtracker)
News & Announcements Forum (http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
The QA Lodge (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=151924)Tune in next week for a special Stormreach Chronicle: Gencon Round-up! Also visit the Compendium for an archive of previous issues (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Category:Stormreach_Chronicle_Archive) of the Stormreach Chronicle!

Borror0
08-27-2008, 10:31 AM
Tolero... what are exactly your criteria to select a build?!:confused:

Aspenor
08-27-2008, 10:50 AM
Tolero... what are exactly your criteria to select a build?!:confused:

I think it's the thread title.....

Much more viable and useful builds are posted with less creative post titles. I posted a monk/ranger hybrid that's twice as useful as any of the mentioned builds above, but because the thread is called "Build Reference Post" it was probably overlooked.

Not that I care if the build gets attention, because all the thread really is is just that, a build reference post.

totmacher
08-27-2008, 10:52 AM
nothing about Nat Gann??????

Free Nat Gann

Tolero
08-27-2008, 11:00 AM
Tolero... what are exactly your criteria to select a build?!:confused:

Honestly I tend to look at a few things, depending on what mood I'm in, but generally I go for:

- Recent activity
- The build has active or on-going discussion
- Initial post includes a 'road map' of what they're trying to do with the build (whether that be their own formatting, the character planner, compendium page, or some other means of communicating long-term character goals)

In particular we like to look for builds that have a lively discussion - even if that discussion isn't "yay this is the best build ever". It's nice to see advice from other players, and sometimes the build is in the process of evolving based on interaction from the other forum users. Some builds aren't 100% mapped out, and the original poster is looking for help refining it... so long as they have a majority of the build mapped out, we like to highlight those as well.

The purpose of the Builder's Blueprints isn't to showcase "the best" builds, it's to showcase the process of making builds, and to inspire others to try different things with their own builds.

Borror0
08-27-2008, 11:01 AM
I think it's the thread title.....

Might be it. Two of the three builds up there are... hmmmm... well.

As for the other, he has no feedback.

Tolero
08-27-2008, 11:02 AM
As for the other, he has no feedback.

Well hopefully we can change that now ^^

Borror0
08-27-2008, 11:04 AM
The purpose of the Builder's Blueprints isn't to showcase "the best" builds, it's to showcase the process of making builds, and to inspire others to try different things with their own builds.

I see. Then that's valid. I'm just worried that someone thinks the builds listed are automaticly good.

Btw, what citeria does "An Acrobat, a Greensteel Staff, and his Mithril Companion" fit in? It has no feedback.

Borror0
08-27-2008, 11:04 AM
Well hopefully we can change that now ^^
LOL - I guess that's one way to put it.

moorewr
08-27-2008, 11:27 AM
LOL - I guess that's one way to put it.

The word you are looking for is "Touché." :)

maddmatt70
08-27-2008, 11:33 AM
The bard build that you have listed the OP actually decided to reroll that build - the OP was trying to retrofit an old character and make it work. The discussion convinced the OP that a build wouldn't work for his character. It seems an odd choice to be posted as a featured build..

Aspenor
08-27-2008, 11:35 AM
The bard build that you have listed the OP actually decided to reroll that build - the OP was trying to retrofit an old character and make it work. The discussion convinced the OP that a build wouldn't work for his character. It seems an odd choice to be posted as a featured build..

fancy name. probably made somebody chuckle.

djinni69
08-27-2008, 12:04 PM
The bard build that you have listed the OP actually decided to reroll that build - the OP was trying to retrofit an old character and make it work. The discussion convinced the OP that a build wouldn't work for his character. It seems an odd choice to be posted as a featured build..

Actually, I think it makes perfect sense using Tolero's criteria. It shows the process of deciding what matters to a build, where points should go, and why that particular idea was just plain not gonna work. In fact, it's posts like those where I learn more about character building than one of the min/max builds that pop up with all the details but very little explanation of how they arrived at those conclusions.

PS - Im the OP of that particular thread :) Im shocked they chose it, but after seeing Tolero's explanation, I can see why it made the list.

Tolero
08-27-2008, 12:57 PM
eventually I'm going to have to ween you all onto the idea of calling them "paths" so that when the new path system comes out in char gen in 8 people understand what a "build" is hehehe.

totmacher
08-27-2008, 12:59 PM
eventually I'm going to have to ween you all onto the idea of calling them "paths" so that when the new path system comes out in char gen in 8 people understand what a "build" is hehehe.

*gets Buildz Forever tattoo'd across his chest along with Vanilla Ice Roolz and Don't Have A Cow, Man*

Impaqt
08-27-2008, 01:00 PM
Unfortunatly, "Path" sounds Monk-Like to most folks so its gonna have a hard time sticking.

Aspenor
08-27-2008, 01:01 PM
eventually I'm going to have to ween you all onto the idea of calling them "paths" so that when the new path system comes out in char gen in 8 people understand what a "build" is hehehe.

explain what the path system is and i'll consider it ;)

Tolero
08-27-2008, 01:22 PM
explain what the path system is and i'll consider it ;)

Effectively, here is the way it works:

When a player starts up the game and begins the glorious process of creating a new character, there's an awful lot of choices available - and for someone who doesn't know 3.5 D&D rules, it can be rather confusing! So instead, each class has 3 "paths" that a user can select from (or they can not pick a path at all and instead customize like the current char-gen system that you see in-game). Within the class, the 3 paths have different themes. By selecting a path, the game will automatically allocate skills, feats, stat points, etc for them at first level based on themes that we've set up. At subsequent levels, each time they talk to the trainer, they are given the choice of staying on their path, or saying "no thanks, I can do it myself from here on out." We've mapped out the paths all the way to level cap, so users can either follow the path to the end, or veer off at some point in their character's development.

The idea is it allows them to quickly make a character with little D&D knowledge, and still end up with a nice playable character that meets the play style they were going for. Once they've got the hang of things, they can worry about customization on an alt, or even leave the path mid-way through their leveling to do it on their own from then on. For those who still love customization and doing things "from scratch", you'll still be able to do that.

Initially we toyed with several names. Unfortunately referring to them as a "build" implied too much like we were expecting them to do the building, when really the game does the building for them. Path (while possibly confusing to you monks out there) expresses more of what our aim was - long term guidance for those who want/need it. Though I imagine existing players may try to take the paths on a test drive themselves :D

EightyFour
08-27-2008, 01:28 PM
explain what the path system is and i'll consider it ;)

The path system is basically something that was created for new players that are total new to the game, they just stepped off the boat into stormreach for their first time. Path's are something you take during character creation, like for example, instead of saying I want this much con here and so much cha here for my Sorc. The path builds it for you. It's like a default character that continues to be default at every level tell you decide not to follow the default anymore.

So if there are 3 paths to the Sorc. One might be Nuker, the second maybe crowd control, and the third is the gimp. If you take the path of the nuker you get spell's like Burning hands or shocking grasp, the second build would be hypnotism, and the third path would have tumble or something.

When the person makes second level they can decide they want to put in all the points the way they want to and select the spells they want, or they can continue to let "the path" choose for them.

It's cookie cutter builds.

At least this is the understanding from what I have heard and seen.

I can't say if these builds are going to be good or not, I saw one looked like it had Niac's cold ray, lol, good luck getting that spell to ever work, how about you just buff me and save yourself the trouble of casting that spell. Unless they included heighten in the build before they hand out that spell, than maybe.

I just hope the builds turn out to be pretty good, or else I just feel sorry for those that fall into that.

moorewr
08-27-2008, 01:34 PM
I can't say if these builds are going to be good or not, I saw one looked like it had Niac's cold ray, lol, good luck getting that spell to ever work, how about you just buff me and save yourself the trouble of casting that spell. Unless they included heighten in the build before they hand out that spell, than maybe.

I just hope the builds turn out to be pretty good, or else I just feel sorry for those that fall into that.

Hmm? I think Niac's is a very useful spell at low levels. Heighten on the other hand is a complete waste on a lowbie.

Gratch
08-27-2008, 01:45 PM
Any chance Tolero could post all the current "path" setups and get feedback from the players?

If you're going to almost auto-level their toons (excluding enhancements it sounds like), some players are going to wonder how to use/equip/enhance their new capabilities. Is there a "Path Mail" that gets sent to an auto-build say every 3 levels to describe their classes new features, suggested enhancements in a place where the player can refer to it for a few days? Say a new mail every level 1,3,6, etc to correspond with guaranteed feat gains. Or is this already in?

Freeman
08-27-2008, 01:45 PM
The idea isn't to give new players an absolutely perfect build. It is to give them a solid build that they can use as they are learning the game. Later on, they may decide to make changes based on what they've learned, but it probably won't be necessary for them to completely reroll to make those changes. Until we see the actual builds(Sorry, but it will take awhile for me to get used to paths), we can't say how realistic they will actually be, but some are pretty straightforward, at least.

regor8
08-27-2008, 01:45 PM
hmmm i wonder how the paths will incorporate 32 point builds if some of the veterens have unlocked them....

Uproar
08-27-2008, 01:58 PM
I think it's the thread title.....

Much more viable and useful builds are posted with less creative post titles. I posted a monk/ranger hybrid that's twice as useful as any of the mentioned builds above, but because the thread is called "Build Reference Post" it was probably overlooked.

Not that I care if the build gets attention, because all the thread really is is just that, a build reference post.

Who said it has to be about the most useful builds? I am happy it isn't just that. It is a weekly highlight. No biggie if some are more widely viable then others. It should be about exposing concepts -- some that may have been widely seen before and some that haven't.

jkm
08-27-2008, 01:59 PM
Effectively, here is the way it works:

When a player starts up the game and begins the glorious process of creating a new character, there's an awful lot of choices available - and for someone who doesn't know 3.5 D&D rules, it can be rather confusing! So instead, each class has 3 "paths" that a user can select from (or they can not pick a path at all and instead customize like the current char-gen system that you see in-game). Within the class, the 3 paths have different themes. By selecting a path, the game will automatically allocate skills, feats, stat points, etc for them at first level based on themes that we've set up. At subsequent levels, each time they talk to the trainer, they are given the choice of staying on their path, or saying "no thanks, I can do it myself from here on out." We've mapped out the paths all the way to level cap, so users can either follow the path to the end, or veer off at some point in their character's development.

The idea is it allows them to quickly make a character with little D&D knowledge, and still end up with a nice playable character that meets the play style they were going for. Once they've got the hang of things, they can worry about customization on an alt, or even leave the path mid-way through their leveling to do it on their own from then on. For those who still love customization and doing things "from scratch", you'll still be able to do that.

Initially we toyed with several names. Unfortunately referring to them as a "build" implied too much like we were expecting them to do the building, when really the game does the building for them. Path (while possibly confusing to you monks out there) expresses more of what our aim was - long term guidance for those who want/need it. Though I imagine existing players may try to take the paths on a test drive themselves :D

this just may be the product manager in me, but why didn't you fix the existing templates as a stopgap until the NPE was implemented? it just seems a relatively minor tweak that would have saved you from losing hundreds of customers over the development life cycle of NPE.

jddonkeykong
08-27-2008, 02:04 PM
I nderstand the concept of following the path to have a solid character to play " until you learn the game to make better decisions yourself".
But how do you learn anything if someone/something is making the step by step decision process for you ?
Its sort of like looking at the puzzle in VON 4 with the wheels you run the quest 5 times someone does the puzzle you loot the chest and run, then on run # 6 everyone is standing outside the bars looking at the chest but since they always had someone along that knew what to do they never learned to do it themselves.

Borror0
08-27-2008, 02:04 PM
eventually I'm going to have to ween you all onto the idea of calling them "paths" so that when the new path system comes out in char gen in 8 people understand what a "build" is hehehe.

In my opinion, a path and a build is totally different.

A path is an archetype. A goal. For a bard, it could be a battle bard, a warchanter. His goal is to fight in melee. Of course, there are many ways for you to build one. He can be S&B, ThF or TwF. Then, once you choose the fighting style... you got one bajilion valid possibilities left. Or, you bard could be a CC bard, or an healing bard. The path is that archetype, the goal the build is trying to acheive.

A build, however, is how the character himself is constructed.

Does that make any sense to you Tolero?

Borror0
08-27-2008, 02:06 PM
Who said it has to be about the most useful builds? I am happy it isn't just that. It is a weekly highlight. No biggie if some are more widely viable then others. It should be about exposing concepts -- some that may have been widely seen before and some that haven't.

I wouldn't the 'best' builds, but decent builds.

Honestly, the whole concept of that Diplo-tank is... err.. clunky?

MysticTheurge
08-27-2008, 02:08 PM
Is there a "Path Mail" that gets sent to an auto-build

That's actually a really nice idea, sort of in keeping with the mail we get with each update.

Tolero, what are the chances that we could get this sort of thing added, maybe after we have some time to play with the paths and generate a set of "advice for noobs" to put in them?

(It would also solve some of the problems we've been discussing elsewhere in terms of educating new players on certain things that they really don't need til higher levels, notably the Feat Respec system.)

Montrose
08-27-2008, 02:18 PM
Oh good, I had been hoping for an auto-gimp feature. It takes too long to gimp my character by hand.

Tolero
08-27-2008, 02:19 PM
As you go along it does tell you what you're receiving, so that you're not completely getting abilities blind... and for those who want to see the 'long term' of the path, those will be available in the Compendium... which is nice since if anyone has advice about a path they can put it right in the page. That way maybe a user likes all of the path except oooone little feat or spell somewhere along the way. They can tweak the little things, and still have an over view of what they can pick. That way even if they go off the path, there is still guidance from both the path, as well as the community.

The web guys and I have been discussing a few things about paths and even making a section where players can put their own builds in the compendium. Still working out the logistics (though nothing really stopping anyone who wanted to start doing that, and I'm happy to add a section in there for player made paths).

Borror0
08-27-2008, 02:23 PM
The web guys and I have been discussing a few things about paths and even making a section where players can put their own builds in the compendium. Still working out the logistics (though nothing really stopping anyone who wanted to start doing that, and I'm happy to add a section in there for player made paths).

I hope you don't do that. It'll be a mess, very likely.
(Now, if I do anything it'll be complicated enough that no one will want to touch it... but not everyone has the knowledge to do that.)

Will you consider the player's feedback on the paths?

Tolero
08-27-2008, 02:25 PM
I hope you don't do that. It'll be a mess, very likely.
(Now, if I do anything it'll be complicated enough that no one will want to touch it... but not everyone has the knowledge to do that.)

Will you consider the player's feedback on the paths?

Yeah that's been the tricky part is I find a lot of the users like the idea of being able to do things in the compendium/wiki's but lack of wiki knowledge seems to hold them back, so we're still seeing what we can finagle that would be user friendly. It might be a ways off since the web team has been working on some other things, and if they have to juggle which first, I prefer it be those other things ^^

Mapa
08-27-2008, 02:34 PM
It might be a ways off since the web team has been working on some other things, and if they have to juggle which first, I prefer it be those other things ^^

And are these thing "Top Secret" ???

Sorry, couldn't help it.;)

Mockduck
08-27-2008, 02:38 PM
paths will also be good for lazy people. don't forget about us lazy people! :)

Seriously, though, as long as the path-built characters are better than the current pre-made choices, all will be well. And the system looks good from what I saw at GenCon.

Borror0
08-27-2008, 02:40 PM
Yeah that's been the tricky part is I find a lot of the users like the idea of being able to do things in the compendium/wiki's but lack of wiki knowledge seems to hold them back, so we're still seeing what we can finagle that would be user friendly. It might be a ways off since the web team has been working on some other things, and if they have to juggle which first, I prefer it be those other things ^^

I'd advise a template with easy explanations.

Link to a template, put it in <includeonly> so that it doesn't show up on the page and add explanation on how to full the template within <noinclude>. Then, you could even add a box so that players could make their own page about it. The only problem is that I don't know how it'll work with you guys since you work with namespaces...

Anyway, I'm talking of a box like this one (which can be found here (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Guilds)):

Tolero
08-27-2008, 02:47 PM
Yah I actually like basic templates pretty well, and they seem to do wonders for people over on the guild pages (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Category:Guild_Page_Templates) who weren't quite sure how to set a page up to look pretty. The trick so far for us has been agreeing on a presentation format. But we'll see if we can't find a happy medium. Even watching the build discussion area I denote that no one seems to agree on a 'standard' presentation for builds :D but it's only because there is a lot of information! I'm pretty happy with what they've done with the paths, but I'm seeing what we can do for letting users do something similar


I'd advise a template with easy explanations.

Link to a template, put it in <includeonly> so that it doesn't show up on the page and add explanation on how to full the template within <noinclude>. Then, you could even add a box so that players could make their own page about it. The only problem is that I don't know how it'll work with you guys since you work with namespaces...

Anyway, I'm talking of a box like this one (which can be found here (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Guilds)):

Borror0
08-27-2008, 02:51 PM
Yah I actually like basic templates pretty well, and they seem to do wonders for people over on the guild pages (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Category:Guild_Page_Templates) who weren't quite sure how to set a page up to look pretty. The trick so far for us has been agreeing on a presentation format. But we'll see if we can't find a happy medium.

It depends. What is the goal, exactly? Build analysis (so that the reader can see the 'numbers') or build presentation?

Tolero
08-27-2008, 02:51 PM
That's what we're trying to decide ^^


It depends. What is the goal, exactly? Build analysis (so that the reader can see the 'numbers') or build presentation?

Freeman
08-27-2008, 02:54 PM
It depends. What is the goal, exactly? Build analysis (so that the reader can see the 'numbers') or build presentation?

I'd vote to leave the build analysis for the actual forums, and concentrate more on presentation for the wiki. So long as the important information is displayed well, we can leave the detailed analysis to those on the forums who are inclined to do so.

Borror0
08-27-2008, 02:54 PM
That's what we're trying to decide ^^

If it's presentation, it's a 5 minutes template. If it's analysis, then it gets more tricky... (and possibly ugly and overcomplicated.)

Borror0
08-27-2008, 02:56 PM
I'd vote to leave the build analysis for the actual forums, and concentrate more on presentation for the wiki. So long as the important information is displayed well, we can leave the detailed analysis to those on the forums who are inclined to do so.

That's my point of view too. Anyway, build analysis would be a NIGHTMARE to make a template for.
Whoever would be in charge of it, I would feel for him (or her). It'll be a nightmare to design without making it overcomplicated and too hard to use.

(At least, that's how I feel about it. Maybe someone sees something I don't.)

rawfocat
08-27-2008, 02:59 PM
Yah I actually like basic templates pretty well, and they seem to do wonders for people over on the guild pages (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Category:Guild_Page_Templates) who weren't quite sure how to set a page up to look pretty. The trick so far for us has been agreeing on a presentation format. But we'll see if we can't find a happy medium. Even watching the build discussion area I denote that no one seems to agree on a 'standard' presentation for builds :D but it's only because there is a lot of information! I'm pretty happy with what they've done with the paths, but I'm seeing what we can do for letting users do something similar

Great work on this, one thing I would note that a couple of people I have talked to mentioned is: Many of the forum builds, (even the templated ones) assume gear. For example if you assume Mitheral Full Plate, you will change your DEX to Armor mastery ratio versus regular Full Plate. I would recommend making sure that any player submitted paths include required and recommended items.

Freeman
08-27-2008, 03:01 PM
Great work on this, one thing I would note that a couple of people I have talked to mentioned is: Many of the forum builds, (even the templated ones) assume gear. For example if you assume Mitheral Full Plate, you will change your DEX to Armor mastery ratio versus regular Full Plate. I would recommend making sure that any player submitted paths include required and recommended items.

I would say that recommended items are fine, but I don't think any submitted builds should require items. These are for mass consumption, and too often, you see builds that require rare items to reach their full potential. For new players in particular, that can be a bad way to start off.

MysticTheurge
08-27-2008, 03:03 PM
I would say that recommended items are fine, but I don't think any submitted builds should require items. These are for mass consumption, and too often, you see builds that require rare items to reach their full potential. For new players in particular, that can be a bad way to start off.

The Turbine-sponsored paths certainly shouldn't require items (though I'm sure people will put recommended gear on the wiki pages for them).

But if they're just adding a general "builds" section to the wiki, then people should certainly be able to say "This character needs Mithral Full Plate in order to maximize AC." To do otherwise, would be leaving out important information for many builds.

Borror0
08-27-2008, 03:04 PM
Tolero... why does the compendium NOT have have the parser functions (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ParserFunctions)?!:eek: I can't even do a simple #if!!

Premier
08-27-2008, 03:06 PM
Will these paths suggest multiclassing or straight class? An example would be "take 1 lvl of Fighter at lvl 2 and another at lvl 8" for a Rpgue who wants to melee more. Or will they just start a Rogue with a higher strength and less dex? Either way I'm looking forward to seeing this in game. DnD rules are difficult to understand if you've never played. Good work!

Peace!

-Premier

Ustice
08-27-2008, 03:07 PM
It shouldn't be hard to make a script to take the output of the character creator and change it to a wiki-friendly form.

Borror0
08-27-2008, 03:15 PM
It shouldn't be hard to make a script to take the output of the character creator and change it to a wiki-friendly form.

Not on the DDO Compendium's current form, though... they lack the extensions to make it feasebile.

Tolero
08-27-2008, 03:22 PM
For the time being the paths are only straight class. Multi-classing is a big step for a beginning unfamiliar player, but it might be something we explore later down the road. Plus there is a wealth of info available from the community on multi-classing, which can help them.

The paths also exclude gear/item requirements... though they do change based on race as I recall. Like a warforged and a halfing on the same path will end up with slightly different things assigned to them because of race.


Will these paths suggest multiclassing or straight class? An example would be "take 1 lvl of Fighter at lvl 2 and another at lvl 8" for a Rpgue who wants to melee more. Or will they just start a Rogue with a higher strength and less dex? Either way I'm looking forward to seeing this in game. DnD rules are difficult to understand if you've never played. Good work!

Peace!

-Premier

Ustice
08-27-2008, 03:28 PM
Speaking of importing, as I mentioned in another thread, if we could import of the character creator to make our custom paths, not only would this be useful for the new users, but it would also help us vets too. It could also add to the web-content as we could then have a new section for builds where we can submit them, and they can be rated.

Something to think about while putting the finishing touches on Mod 8...

Coldin
08-27-2008, 03:34 PM
The paths also exclude gear/item requirements... though they do change based on race as I recall. Like a warforged and a halfing on the same path will end up with slightly different things assigned to them because of race.

Like a Human Sorcerer getting Diehard as a bonus feat. (It's really the only example people have seen.)

Since you're looking here Tolero, is there any chance we might see these "Paths" get uploaded to the compendium before Mod 8 hits Risia? That way some of the build experts can take a look at them and make suggestions.

Ustice
08-27-2008, 03:42 PM
Since you're looking here Tolero, is there any chance we might see these "Paths" get uploaded to the compendium before Mod 8 hits Risia? That way some of the build experts can take a look at them and make suggestions.

Great idea.

ArkoHighStar
08-27-2008, 03:47 PM
Great idea.

I put up a post like that about a week ago, basically have turbine create an xml file format describing all the leveling attributes, skill,stats feats class etc, and then at character creation have option to load prebuilt path from file. Have the character planner able to export to xml frmat and you are good to go

Borror0
08-27-2008, 03:58 PM
Made an example here (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Template:Build_presentation). However, it's totally broken because #if and #ifeq are broken.

Made a copy here (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Template:For_Tolero) if you want to use it on the DDO wiki and see how it works. (Oh, and sorry, been too lazy to explain it but it's fairly simple overall.)

Tolero
08-27-2008, 04:42 PM
As for the paths, ironically you guys already have put feedback in on them without even knowing it :D We didn't just pull these builds out of thin air. We looked at existing discussions on the forums, existing builds that players play, existing dev builds that devs play, and tried to weigh it all for fun and playability. The builds might not be the most min-maxed possible, but they allow a user to create a decent character, who isn’t the accidental sorcerer with 20 strength, but also isn’t the mediocre blah build of blahness.

As Piloto says "We used some of all of these things, measured everything versus dev smartness, adjusted if necessary, and then added a sizeable pinch of awesomeness for flavor and, well, awesomeness."

Maybe we can come to a happy medium - we can call the presentation version "paths" and the analysis "builds"? :D

Re: templates & #ifs -

Yah Borr that's similar to what I had been playing around with, but I'm letting the web guy take a look at it to see if he can do anything more advanced. I just don't want to take him away from some of the other cool stuff that he's been fussing with ^^ I also put a bug in their ear about getting you guys the parser functions, and they seemed agreeable to it (though it might not go in until the next Compendium push, which is usually around update time, but at least it would be there).

Coldin
08-27-2008, 04:52 PM
As for the paths, ironically you guys already have put feedback in on them without even knowing it :D We didn't just pull these builds out of thin air. We looked at existing discussions on the forums, existing builds that players play, existing dev builds that devs play, and tried to weigh it all for fun and playability. The builds might not be the most min-maxed possible, but they allow a user to create a decent character, who isn’t the accidental sorcerer with 20 strength, but also isn’t the mediocre blah build of blahness.

As Piloto says "We used some of all of these things, measured everything versus dev smartness, adjusted if necessary, and then added a sizeable pinch of awesomeness for flavor and, well, awesomeness."

Maybe we can come to a happy medium - we can call the presentation version "paths" and the analysis "builds"? :D


Well, even still, it would be kinda nice to see just how these builds look. At least when Mod 8 heads over to Risia.

Actually, just thinking here, but maybe there should be some way of accessing the "Path" progression from in the game. That way someone who is close to leveling but doesn't want, or doesn't know how, to look up what comes next in the compendium for their particular path still has a way of easily obtaining that information.

Edit: Actually, there probably should be something like this already for just standard class progression. We already have a way to view upcoming enhancements.

And that brings up another point, which I'm not sure was answered or not. Do paths also include the various enhancements that would compliment it? Or do new players still have to muddle through that on their own?

DaveyCrockett
08-27-2008, 05:11 PM
All of this interaction, discuss and updating is like one big..

http://tolerocard.com/images/logo.jpg

Beherit_Baphomar
08-27-2008, 05:30 PM
Or like;

http://www.projecttolero.org/images/PT002.jpg

HumanJHawkins
08-27-2008, 05:33 PM
Once they've got the hang of things, they can worry about customization on an alt, or even leave the path mid-way through their leveling to do it on their own from then on. For those who still love customization and doing things "from scratch", you'll still be able to do that.

Really cool I think, but there is one weakness in the way you described it. Actually it is the same weakness that exists in the current character creation process.

What I would want as a new character, is to take the path as a baseline. But then modify it a little according to my preferences. I was annoyed the first time I went to create a character when I clicked the "Customize this character" button only to find that all of the previous suggestions were wiped out.

If it isn't too late, why not let people choose their path and then, if desired, customize it from that starting point. (Not make them write everything down and then go back and do the customization from scratch)

Cheers!

P.S. If you want to see a cool build, check out my new Smashy-Smashy (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=157031) Build for Three-Year-Olds.

Borror0
08-27-2008, 05:36 PM
If it isn't too late, why not let people choose their path and then, if desired, customize it from that starting point. (Not make them write everything down and then go back and do the customization from scratch)

EhatI suggested, is to make a intermediate level customize option. You select it and it lists a few other options listing why going that way could be a good idea.

But obviously, that's more work.

DragonKiller
08-27-2008, 05:47 PM
Effectively, here is the way it works:

... So instead, each class has 3 "paths" that a user can select from (or they can not pick a path at all and instead customize like the current char-gen system that you see in-game). ...

I was really worried about the path you guys were going to take with this. However if this is the way it's implemented I think it's a GREAT idea! Let those who are either new, or don't spend the time to research/invent builds because they just wanna play use the pre-built paths. But for those of use who like to experiment we still can (I don't want to tell you what happens to a character right before it's deleted.... let's just say there is something really wrong with me).

Only problem, I sure wish this was done 2 1/2 yrs ago... I bet DDO would be 3 times the size it is now if it was done back then.

Ustice
08-27-2008, 05:50 PM
Dear Turbine Devs (Tolero and Tarrant, can you pass the note, please?) If you just give us the tools to create the content for you, you will be amazed at what we come up with. We're crafty, clever, passionate, and willing to work for free.

...a free month of play now and then wouldn't be unappreciated though when we make something cool.

Mr. Jim Crowley wants more custom content in Turbine's games. Custom paths are an easy way to get that ball rolling. Why spend 2 months working on paths when we can do it for free, provide a TON more, and even of better quality? XML, please. :-)

debo
08-27-2008, 06:16 PM
I asked the tooth fairy for Tolero and the tooth fairy delivered!

Kistilan
08-27-2008, 06:37 PM
Initially we toyed with several names. Unfortunately referring to them as a "build" implied too much like we were expecting them to do the building, when really the game does the building for them. Path (while possibly confusing to you monks out there) expresses more of what our aim was - long term guidance for those who want/need it. Though I imagine existing players may try to take the paths on a test drive themselves :D

Although Path sounds like a "neat" term, I have to agree it dips into the nethertendrils of The Monk, The Sorcerer, The Cleric/Priest(ess) and The Wizard as well as speciality rangers and knights among other classes. Path of The Knight of The Crown, for instance. Or The Path of the Sylvan Ranger (has a specific name). The Path of the Dragon (Monk). The Path of the Snake (Sorcerer). The Path of the Vile (Priest).

It could have just been named Preformatted Fighter - Defensive Build. Preformatted Figher - Offensive Build. Preformatted Fighter - Balanced Build. And so on and so forth for all other classes. Preformatted Wizard - Offensive Casting. Preformatted Wizard - Defensive Casting. Preformatted Wizard - Controller Casting. Preformatted Rogue - Offensive Build. Preformatted Rogue Sneak & Backstab Build. Preformatted Rogue - Trap Build.

Asheron's Call did this very well by generating names for these builds. We could take this a step further (without dipping into actual classes from D&D 3.0/3.5) and score with things such as:

Offensive Fighter is now known as the Warrior. Defensive is known as the Defender. Balanced is known as the Infantryman.
Offensive Caster known as the Evoker. Defensive Caster known as Abjuror. Controller Caster known as Enchanter. (Yes, this did dip into the names of classes, no way around it really). Also Mobile Caster & Specialist paths could be options in the preformat (very easy here honestly).
The Rogues! Offensive Rogue - Scrapper. Sneak & Stab - Assassin Build (already in place, same for acrobat & ranger tempest, etc). Rogue w/Skills (Trap Specialist or Evader).

There are so many ways to have done this without dipping into that mystical word "Path," which unfortunately also stems from The Light Side & The Dark Side of the Force. Path is a mystical word by nature, and setting characters upon Paths sometimes evokes a notion other than "predetermined skills, feats and attributes," but rather special "powers" which gets us closer to D&D 4th Ed Terminology.

I'm all for these quick-start character generations that Turbine, Tolero & crew are working on -- I think it's a GREAT idea. I would hesitate to call them paths is my obvious point.

So, good work on a great feature Turbine -- consider a name change, but I won't hate if you don't -- it's just a suggestion.

PS: Passed my ReCheck Radar Ride in the SiM. One step closer to my wings.

Gratch
08-27-2008, 07:12 PM
Yeah... for Warforged instead of path... if you could call them Assembly Instructions or Forgings.

For the weak fleshies how about: trends, contrivances, conceptions, concoctions, recipes.

Ustice
08-27-2008, 07:28 PM
Although Path sounds like a "neat" term, I have to agree it dips into the nethertendrils of The Monk, The Sorcerer, The Cleric/Priest(ess) and The Wizard as well as speciality rangers and knights among other classes. Path of The Knight of The Crown, for instance. Or The Path of the Sylvan Ranger (has a specific name). The Path of the Dragon (Monk). The Path of the Snake (Sorcerer). The Path of the Vile (Priest).

I think that path is a very appropriate term. It generally means in this context that it is a personal philosophy combined with a set of actions/accomplishments/skills which are predetermined. In this case you have a concept (personal philosophy) combined with a set of feats/enhancements/skills/attributes/etc which is predetermined.

Looks like a match to me.

Saaluta
08-27-2008, 07:28 PM
nothing about Nat Gann??????

Free Nat Gann

Didn't you know Tot, that's the Top Secret...Nat Gann was secretly a horse demon that likes to dive into pools of water whom we will fight in Mod 28.... :D

Saal :)

Mapa
08-27-2008, 11:22 PM
P.S. If you want to see a cool build, check out my new Smashy-Smashy (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=157031) Build for Three-Year-Olds.


This is a really cool concept build. I love the idea. Highly recommended for next week. Can't grab 'em to young!!!

Kistilan
08-27-2008, 11:28 PM
I think that path is a very appropriate term. It generally means in this context that it is a personal philosophy combined with a set of actions/accomplishments/skills which are predetermined. In this case you have a concept (personal philosophy) combined with a set of feats/enhancements/skills/attributes/etc which is predetermined.

Looks like a match to me.

A path is a dedication (yes a series of choices, but in a much more "fantasy setting" it's a dedication or comittment).

Picking some attributes and skills... yeah, those are choices that you have to live with, but it sounds more like winning the lotto than dedicating your abilties to "a path."

And feats, thanks to Fred, are reversible.. Nothing is pure cement really.

I do not find "path" being an adequate descriptor. A "path" in the D&D sense following 3.5 rules would much more closely follow something like a Path of Serpent's Blood and the Ritual of a Demon for a specialized Wizard/Sorcerer more than picking some skill point and attribute allocations.

Well, I've been drinking, so maybe this argument holds more less water and more beer than I like... or maybe I'm just a tad too drunk to cite more examples. *L* Anyway, I hope they do change the terminology for this great concept.

Venar
08-28-2008, 08:13 AM
Going off-topic here Tolero, but i don't see the Vision of Destruction bug (where the Boss doesn't spawn) listed in the known issues. Oversight?

EightyFour
08-28-2008, 09:29 AM
Hmm? I think Niac's is a very useful spell at low levels. Heighten on the other hand is a complete waste on a lowbie.

Just pointing out that the only way your not going to be wasting spell points on that spell all the time is by taking heighten to get it to work, of course that's gonna cost you anyway and at a limited sp pool at lower levels just seems like a waste of a spell.

Ron
08-28-2008, 10:31 AM
The web guys and I have been discussing a few things about paths and even making a section where players can put their own builds in the compendium. Still working out the logistics (though nothing really stopping anyone who wanted to start doing that, and I'm happy to add a section in there for player made paths).

If this happens and a standardized format for that gets put into place, let me know. I am going to put a wiki-output into the character planner, so it may as well be consistent with the format you guys decide on.

Ustice
08-28-2008, 10:35 AM
Did you see Borro0's template? I think that would work well. It is at least a start.

Tolero
08-28-2008, 10:40 AM
Yeah honestly gang there's nothing wrong with getting a head start on us :) and if it's a format that you all seem to like, mebbe we just change our plans to be in line with the format that you all like. There's enough wiki-fluent folk among you I think to pull off a very nice template. Borr's work's pretty well IMO, you can click on the section you want to read about using the table of contents, which is nice and helps people navigate easier

Borror0
08-28-2008, 10:41 AM
Borr's work's pretty well IMO, you can click on the section you want to read about using the table of contents, which is nice and helps people navigate easier

I could also put an optional __NOTOC__ if the TOC bugs people. (Defaulted to show because it's so easy to just press "hide".)

Tolero
08-28-2008, 11:09 AM
You know if inclined, we could turn this into like a little game/vote type thing to let people design a page layout/template for the compendium for people's paths? I could include the announcement in one of the next Chronicles and then we can take a forum poll to see what style people like? Then the winning style would be the 'standard' one used from then on? (though it is a wiki and I'm sure people could deviate if they wanted, but for those who want to just let the template do the layout for them they could)

Aspenor
08-28-2008, 11:13 AM
You know if inclined, we could turn this into like a little game/vote type thing to let people design a page layout/template for the compendium for people's paths? I could include the announcement in one of the next Chronicles and then we can take a forum poll to see what style people like? Then the winning style would be the 'standard' one used from then on? (though it is a wiki and I'm sure people could deviate if they wanted, but for those who want to just let the template do the layout for them they could)

That's entirely unnecessary. Just ask me. That's all that matters.

Borror0
08-28-2008, 11:23 AM
You know if inclined, we could turn this into like a little game/vote type thing to let people design a page layout/template for the compendium for people's paths? I could include the announcement in one of the next Chronicles and then we can take a forum poll to see what style people like? Then the winning style would be the 'standard' one used from then on? (though it is a wiki and I'm sure people could deviate if they wanted, but for those who want to just let the template do the layout for them they could)

Do I have to reformat without parsers? (I hope not.)

Deathseeker
08-28-2008, 11:28 AM
Quick feedback on why the "path's" concept is just what the game needs, and it's a big deal...

When I first started back in the day, I had played D&D when I was young, but remembered nothing of the rules. I created a toon, and immediately multiclassed my WF Rog/Wiz. Got to level 6, got into Gwylans, got absolutely pummeled by pugs because I was gimped and couldnt do the traps (which was totally true cuz I didn't know what I was doing) and hated the experience. Almost quit because I didn't want to start over and didn't want to play a gimped toon. And I certainly hated the attitude of the "knowledgable" players. Of course that was back before the enhancement system, feat respecs, etc. But the experience of being yelled at is not fun for new players.

Point is, this change will allow non D&D experienced players a way to learn the game mechanics and what they like before dabbling in the daunting world of "builds". Some just like to swing the sword and loot the chest, and aren't concerned about which level to take their dips in fighter to max the last point of intimidate.

LOVE THIS CONCEPT! Get us more player retention and all the other game difficulties (pug availability, developer resources, etc) get sooo much easier!

Tolero
08-28-2008, 11:48 AM
Do I have to reformat without parsers? (I hope not.)

Well parsers don't just grow on trees ya know :D so I guess it's more a matter of if you want to wait until the compendium update or not.

Tolero
08-28-2008, 11:54 AM
Quick feedback on why the "path's" concept is just what the game needs, and it's a big deal...

When I first started back in the day, I had played D&D when I was young, but remembered nothing of the rules. I created a toon, and immediately multiclassed my WF Rog/Wiz. Got to level 6, got into Gwylans, got absolutely pummeled by pugs because I was gimped and couldnt do the traps (which was totally true cuz I didn't know what I was doing) and hated the experience. Almost quit because I didn't want to start over and didn't want to play a gimped toon. And I certainly hated the attitude of the "knowledgable" players. Of course that was back before the enhancement system, feat respecs, etc. But the experience of being yelled at is not fun for new players.

Point is, this change will allow non D&D experienced players a way to learn the game mechanics and what they like before dabbling in the daunting world of "builds". Some just like to swing the sword and loot the chest, and aren't concerned about which level to take their dips in fighter to max the last point of intimidate.

LOVE THIS CONCEPT! Get us more player retention and all the other game difficulties (pug availability, developer resources, etc) get sooo much easier!

This is definitely the type of experience that we wanted to help users with... people who don't know the rules. As great as a high level of customization is, it's also a lot to process for the beginner. It was really nice to be at Gen Con, and I can't tell you how often this interaction would happen:

"I'm here to try the Dungeons & Dragons Online"
"Alright, step this way. Have you ever played any MMO's before?"
"No"
"Ever played pen and paper D&D"
"Yeah... second edition"
"3.5?"
"No, never."

Then watch them go through the char-gen and the tutorial... and it was just fascinating because you could see that they "got" it. They'd look at the break down of the classes... pick one...
Then look at the class build choices... click on Customize
Their eyes would glaze over on customize and they'd click "back" and start looking at the available paths, read info about the path, pick a path, then dive right in

Then you'd see them go through the new tutorial and watch them sort of hesitate on what to do, but follow along with all the helpers, and by the time they got out of the tutorial you could just literally see the difference between when they first stepped up to the machine timid and unsure, and when they got out of the tutorial interacting with the game and their character with confidence. Good stuff!

Ustice
08-28-2008, 11:55 AM
Can we push this up like the favicon magic that you worked? :)

Tolero
08-28-2008, 11:57 AM
Can we push this up like the favicon magic that you worked? :)

I can try. No promises, but it doesn't hurt to try.

Kistilan
08-28-2008, 12:38 PM
That's entirely unnecessary. Just ask me. That's all that matters.

What Would Chuck Norris Do in this Situation, Asp? :D

And yes, a contest for layouts/templates... would be good.. for Aspenor to win so he's proven right. Of course if Jond beats him... :rolleyes:

Bronko
08-28-2008, 01:06 PM
This is definitely the type of experience that we wanted to help users with... people who don't know the rules. As great as a high level of customization is, it's also a lot to process for the beginner. It was really nice to be at Gen Con, and I can't tell you how often this interaction would happen:

"I'm here to try the Dungeons & Dragons Online"
"Alright, step this way. Have you ever played any MMO's before?"
"No"
"Ever played pen and paper D&D"
"Yeah... second edition"
"3.5?"
"No, never."

Then watch them go through the char-gen and the tutorial... and it was just fascinating because you could see that they "got" it. They'd look at the break down of the classes... pick one...
Then look at the class build choices... click on Customize
Their eyes would glaze over on customize and they'd click "back" and start looking at the available paths, read info about the path, pick a path, then dive right in

Then you'd see them go through the new tutorial and watch them sort of hesitate on what to do, but follow along with all the helpers, and by the time they got out of the tutorial you could just literally see the difference between when they first stepped up to the machine timid and unsure, and when they got out of the tutorial interacting with the game and their character with confidence. Good stuff!

It's funny Toledro, because you could have been describing my own experience to a "T".

But the problem isn't 'getting it', the problem is what happens in the hours and days after creation. I love the emphasis on the NPE but what it's missing is this:


Give the new character a stack of the various ailment-fixing potions. Show them the expected graphics and effects that go with a curse, blindness, and stat damage so they know what to expect and how/why to fix it. Have them be hit by these various effects and show them how to hotbar and use those important curatives. There is nothing worse to a new player than going into Water Works at a low level (and likely with low resources) and trying to fight your way through one of those dreaded Shaman curses or getting flattened by a lightning bolt because you didn't know to prepare yourself with those kinds of remedies/preventives. Teach them self-sufficiency from the beginning and the newer gamers will enjoy the experience more during the early hours/days of play.

Teach them how to group and the etiquette for grouping. Make using the Social Panel not only intuitive but also give them a chance to practice with it so they are comfortable joining a group full of complete strangers or asking a whole server of people they don't know to join their group. A tutorial, interaction with an 'NPC' group, whatever it takes. You don't have to include all the lingo and abbreviations, but new players need to be more comfortable using the Social Panel and interacting with other players. I for one spent the first 27 days soloing everything, right up until I hit level 7. Thank goodness I stumbled onto a couple of helpful players who finally showed me the ropes because I was on the verge of leaving the game when my first 30 days were up. *insert plug for Tazmakein and Arikka who showed me how to love this game*


I'm a big fan of what the Devs are doing, but don't forget about the other 'experiences' that a new player will be having. Give them a chance to make those mistakes early on without consequence so when they hit the Harbor they are better prepared. Losing new players at character generation is only a part of it. Give them the tools and experiences they need before getting 'thrown to the wolves' that are us grizzled vets. :D

MysticTheurge
08-28-2008, 01:18 PM
Teach them how to group and the etiquette for grouping.

That's not something that should be limited to new players... ;)

Wizzly_Bear
08-28-2008, 03:49 PM
..

tfangel
08-28-2008, 03:56 PM
Then look at the class build choices... click on Customize
Their eyes would glaze over on customize and they'd click "back"

Lol, i think i just had flashbacks to so many parts of my life. ;)
Sort of a "huh, um, what? best back away slowly."

The path idea sounds fun, i don't know how many new characters i rerolled just because i felt i made a huge mistake, and i've been playing D&D since 1980 or so. :P

tfangel
08-28-2008, 04:06 PM
Show them the expected graphics and effects that go with a curse, blindness, and stat damage so they know what to expect and how/why to fix it.

That is probably a good idea, but it was quite a fun surprise if not a lot scary the first time i went blind. Then i went out and bought a ton of remove blindness potions, and prayed to find a protection from blindness item. ;)

Borror0
08-28-2008, 05:18 PM
Well parsers don't just grow on trees ya know :D so I guess it's more a matter of if you want to wait until the compendium update or not.


Can we push this up like the favicon magic that you worked? :)
I can try. No promises, but it doesn't hurt to try.

I hope you can push it. Adding an extension for someone who knows what he's doing doesn't take 15 minutes.
(Unless you add an experiemental version of en extension, but that's something a company like Turbine would never do anyway.)

And this time, I talk from experience.

Borror: Hey Simon, can you add me parsers and FlaggedRev please?
Simon: Sure. No problem.
*5 minutes later*
Borror: Oh, just let me know when it's there. I have a template to finish.
Simon: Oh, it's already done. Forgot to tell you.
Borror: ><

I understand it may be troublesome to convince the right person to do it (/shake fist at heavy bureaucratie), but it shouldn't be too hard for them to do it.

EightyFour
08-28-2008, 05:51 PM
It's funny Toledro, because you could have been describing my own experience to a "T".

But the problem isn't 'getting it', the problem is what happens in the hours and days after creation. I love the emphasis on the NPE but what it's missing is this:


Give the new character a stack of the various ailment-fixing potions. Show them the expected graphics and effects that go with a curse, blindness, and stat damage so they know what to expect and how/why to fix it. Have them be hit by these various effects and show them how to hotbar and use those important curatives. There is nothing worse to a new player than going into Water Works at a low level (and likely with low resources) and trying to fight your way through one of those dreaded Shaman curses or getting flattened by a lightning bolt because you didn't know to prepare yourself with those kinds of remedies/preventives. Teach them self-sufficiency from the beginning and the newer gamers will enjoy the experience more during the early hours/days of play.

Teach them how to group and the etiquette for grouping. Make using the Social Panel not only intuitive but also give them a chance to practice with it so they are comfortable joining a group full of complete strangers or asking a whole server of people they don't know to join their group. A tutorial, interaction with an 'NPC' group, whatever it takes. You don't have to include all the lingo and abbreviations, but new players need to be more comfortable using the Social Panel and interacting with other players. I for one spent the first 27 days soloing everything, right up until I hit level 7. Thank goodness I stumbled onto a couple of helpful players who finally showed me the ropes because I was on the verge of leaving the game when my first 30 days were up. *insert plug for Tazmakein and Arikka who showed me how to love this game*


I'm a big fan of what the Devs are doing, but don't forget about the other 'experiences' that a new player will be having. Give them a chance to make those mistakes early on without consequence so when they hit the Harbor they are better prepared. Losing new players at character generation is only a part of it. Give them the tools and experiences they need before getting 'thrown to the wolves' that are us grizzled vets. :D

I totally agree with this. It's great that new players well have a lot more help, and I'm sure that several people here are going to be very critical on the path's, and that is a great thing.

Also i think it is a great idea to start people off knowing how to take care of themselves, I'm sure this well be further enforced by the player base as it is being done right now.

Also I think it's a good idea to motivate players to be in a group with other players, like maybe an xp bonus at lower level's for those that are in groups. My idea would be so much of a % per extra player you have over level 1 tell level 6 or 7.

And it would make sense to make the social panel as user friendly as you can. I remember my very first MMO, using TeamSpeak and Ventrillo in the background, I was ok with listening but to self conscious to speak, after awhile I started to warm up to the voices as I became used to them, I was also in a guild with 2 of my friends which helped, but you start talking a little bit and than a little bit more, tell you have no problems having a full conversation about a subject other than your personal life to a complete stranger.

I think getting into a guild for a brand new player of MMO's is very important towards retention of players, I think that a new player to DDO, the important thing is that they are able to get used to the way the game play's. No one want's to have a character that is gimped, it's like being socially unaccepted by others, I don't think many people are going to stick around if the majority want's to stay away from them, I guess that's why I think these path's are so important, if the path gimp's the character or one path is considered superior to another than we are going to have problems, I just hope that Turbine has made some extra time to make any changes that need to be made once these path's are released. And if they work out perfectly, well than there is some extra time to work on the ranged combat system, woot!

Deathseeker
08-28-2008, 07:02 PM
I think getting into a guild for a brand new player of MMO's is very important towards retention of players, I think that a new player to DDO, the important thing is that they are able to get used to the way the game play's. No one want's to have a character that is gimped, it's like being socially unaccepted by others, I don't think many people are going to stick around if the majority want's to stay away from them, I guess that's why I think these path's are so important, if the path gimp's the character or one path is considered superior to another than we are going to have problems, I just hope that Turbine has made some extra time to make any changes that need to be made once these path's are released. And if they work out perfectly, well than there is some extra time to work on the ranged combat system, woot!

Sometimes I wonder about the guild being great for a brand new player. Don't get me wrong, I love my guild and wouldn't have it any other way. But here's what I see a lot with new players...

Start out learning the game
Get into a guild
Guildies immediately shower with plat and gear
Run with guildies, which tend to zerg as they are mostly experienced
New player goes to cap really fast
Quests become memorized without really getting the experience of a new game
Become loot farmers

Ok, a little jaded I admit, but with my son, I recommended he stay out of the guild for a while and "earn his stripes". Be happy he found a +1 flaming battleaxe. Save up to buy his first item off the broker. Actually enjoy running waterworks and be surprised by those traps. It only comes once...

...then, once that's over, join a guild, become a loot farmer and repeat the shroud 40 times like the rest of us :)

Yes, yes, I know, Permadeath is different, so are a lot of guilds, etc, etc....just making a general statement which I believe is true...

Sorry, let's get back on topic...

EightyFour
08-28-2008, 09:19 PM
Sometimes I wonder about the guild being great for a brand new player. Don't get me wrong, I love my guild and wouldn't have it any other way. But here's what I see a lot with new players...

Start out learning the game
Get into a guild
Guildies immediately shower with plat and gear
Run with guildies, which tend to zerg as they are mostly experienced
New player goes to cap really fast
Quests become memorized without really getting the experience of a new game
Become loot farmers

Ok, a little jaded I admit, but with my son, I recommended he stay out of the guild for a while and "earn his stripes". Be happy he found a +1 flaming battleaxe. Save up to buy his first item off the broker. Actually enjoy running waterworks and be surprised by those traps. It only comes once...

...then, once that's over, join a guild, become a loot farmer and repeat the shroud 40 times like the rest of us :)

Yes, yes, I know, Permadeath is different, so are a lot of guilds, etc, etc....just making a general statement which I believe is true...

Sorry, let's get back on topic...

You do have a point, but what I'm thinking is that enjoying the game is great, if you can find a guild of new players or groups of new players, or just putting up an lfm to the effect of "no zerg" group, but I think all that treasure hunting and level capping can only last so long, I think what makes people stay is that they have simi relationships with those around them, it's the company that makes you want to stay and play, or even the company that makes you leave.

Tolero
08-29-2008, 10:56 AM
Yeah there's definitely a ton of information to take in for the newcomer, and you should have heard our discussions in the planning stages of everything that we wanted to try and teach players. But on the other hand, if you give it to them all in one sitting, that's also a bit of information over-load. The current process should be a lot more like a gradual wade into the deep end of the pool, rather than taking new players and letting them jump off the diving board right into the Harbor. A lot of experiences will be gained on Korthos, where they'll be meeting other players, and coupled with the henchmen, the concept of being in a party with others will get very instilled in them. Back in the old days, we had users going directly from Euphonia into the harbor, and it was just a little too much too fast. Now Korthos is a nice place for newbies to get their feet wet once they've gotten the basics out of the tutorial, and further refine their game skills among other players.


It's funny Toledro, because you could have been describing my own experience to a "T".

But the problem isn't 'getting it', the problem is what happens in the hours and days after creation. I love the emphasis on the NPE but what it's missing is this:


Give the new character a stack of the various ailment-fixing potions. Show them the expected graphics and effects that go with a curse, blindness, and stat damage so they know what to expect and how/why to fix it. Have them be hit by these various effects and show them how to hotbar and use those important curatives. There is nothing worse to a new player than going into Water Works at a low level (and likely with low resources) and trying to fight your way through one of those dreaded Shaman curses or getting flattened by a lightning bolt because you didn't know to prepare yourself with those kinds of remedies/preventives. Teach them self-sufficiency from the beginning and the newer gamers will enjoy the experience more during the early hours/days of play.

Teach them how to group and the etiquette for grouping. Make using the Social Panel not only intuitive but also give them a chance to practice with it so they are comfortable joining a group full of complete strangers or asking a whole server of people they don't know to join their group. A tutorial, interaction with an 'NPC' group, whatever it takes. You don't have to include all the lingo and abbreviations, but new players need to be more comfortable using the Social Panel and interacting with other players. I for one spent the first 27 days soloing everything, right up until I hit level 7. Thank goodness I stumbled onto a couple of helpful players who finally showed me the ropes because I was on the verge of leaving the game when my first 30 days were up. *insert plug for Tazmakein and Arikka who showed me how to love this game*


I'm a big fan of what the Devs are doing, but don't forget about the other 'experiences' that a new player will be having. Give them a chance to make those mistakes early on without consequence so when they hit the Harbor they are better prepared. Losing new players at character generation is only a part of it. Give them the tools and experiences they need before getting 'thrown to the wolves' that are us grizzled vets. :D

swooshrp
08-29-2008, 11:05 AM
Yeah there's definitely a ton of information to take in for the newcomer, and you should have heard our discussions in the planning stages of everything that we wanted to try and teach players. But on the other hand, if you give it to them all in one sitting, that's also a bit of information over-load. The current process should be a lot more like a gradual wade into the deep end of the pool, rather than taking new players and letting them jump off the diving board right into the Harbor. A lot of experiences will be gained on Korthos, where they'll be meeting other players, and coupled with the henchmen, the concept of being in a party with others will get very instilled in them. Back in the old days, we had users going directly from Euphonia into the harbor, and it was just a little too much too fast. Now Korthos is a nice place for newbies to get their feet wet once they've gotten the basics out of the tutorial, and further refine their game skills among other players.

Besides the GenCon presence and article reviews at mmo websites, is there a strategic plan to market DDO with the NPE changes?

I understand about all the licensing dilemmas that Turbine's faces with Atari, but I would imagine there are other ways to market this game again. I would love to see a reissue of a new box or other levels of marketing right around Christmas time with the NPE and lev cap increase as prime examples of how much this game has grown.

Tolero
08-29-2008, 01:34 PM
I've actually been very pleased to see users recently who say they were lured in by our new online banners :D who can resist that monk? "I DARE you to click this ad! KEEEYAH!"


Besides the GenCon presence and article reviews at mmo websites, is there a strategic plan to market DDO with the NPE changes?

I understand about all the licensing dilemmas that Turbine's faces with Atari, but I would imagine there are other ways to market this game again. I would love to see a reissue of a new box or other levels of marketing right around Christmas time with the NPE and lev cap increase as prime examples of how much this game has grown.

Dark_Helmet
08-29-2008, 02:04 PM
Yeah there's definitely a ton of information to take in for the newcomer, and you should have heard our discussions in the planning stages of everything that we wanted to try and teach players. But on the other hand, if you give it to them all in one sitting, that's also a bit of information over-load. The current process should be a lot more like a gradual wade into the deep end of the pool, rather than taking new players and letting them jump off the diving board right into the Harbor. A lot of experiences will be gained on Korthos, where they'll be meeting other players, and coupled with the henchmen, the concept of being in a party with others will get very instilled in them. Back in the old days, we had users going directly from Euphonia into the harbor, and it was just a little too much too fast. Now Korthos is a nice place for newbies to get their feet wet once they've gotten the basics out of the tutorial, and further refine their game skills among other players.

WWDHD (What Would DarkHelmet Do):
Introduce the character to a dungeon setting by not making them the PC yet (make them the hireling using your current terms). Have a movie of a dungeon crawl (complete with voice overs / text):
Have them follow the heroes thru a typical dungeon environment with the voice over (Using spot "Hey, watch out! I sense a trap" ..."let our rogue get it"... watch the rogue Search "I found it" as the trap box sparks and the "stand back, it may blow" as they do a disarm).
Then, have an interactive session where they follow the heroes and does some stuff "stand guard on this cooridor and watch for anything" and have some spider come out to get smacked, "Hey scout ahead and let us know what kinds of monsters are there" and tell them to sneak up to a certain point and tab over the enemies. "take the spell caster out before he can cast - or interrupt him" and have the heroes attack others while they have to attack the spell caster).

I remember the good old days of Sages: Have them sit down and talk to him. He can demonstrate (with illusions) the various affects of spells on them from a level 1-3 dungeon. Tell them never to enter a dungeon at more than normal or solo level until they are skilled.

Ustice
08-29-2008, 02:41 PM
I've actually been very pleased to see users recently who say they were lured in by our new online banners :D who can resist that monk? "I DARE you to click this ad! KEEEYAH!"

Banners? What banners? I don't see any...

Oh... right... AdBlock Plus. I forgot what those things are. ;)

I hear that Twitter is a great marketing tool now... (I'm typing this between tweets for work)

sephiroth1084
09-01-2008, 10:11 AM
Before I make my main point, I just want to echo everyone else' sentiment in saying, GREAT JOB! The 'make DDO accessible to the new player campaign' is a fabulous idea! Heck, I'm going to make a new character just to see the new tutorial area.


It's funny Toledro, because you could have been describing my own experience to a "T".

But the problem isn't 'getting it', the problem is what happens in the hours and days after creation. I love the emphasis on the NPE but what it's missing is this:


Give the new character a stack of the various ailment-fixing potions. Show them the expected graphics and effects that go with a curse, blindness, and stat damage so they know what to expect and how/why to fix it. Have them be hit by these various effects and show them how to hotbar and use those important curatives. There is nothing worse to a new player than going into Water Works at a low level (and likely with low resources) and trying to fight your way through one of those dreaded Shaman curses or getting flattened by a lightning bolt because you didn't know to prepare yourself with those kinds of remedies/preventives. Teach them self-sufficiency from the beginning and the newer gamers will enjoy the experience more during the early hours/days of play.

Teach them how to group and the etiquette for grouping. Make using the Social Panel not only intuitive but also give them a chance to practice with it so they are comfortable joining a group full of complete strangers or asking a whole server of people they don't know to join their group. A tutorial, interaction with an 'NPC' group, whatever it takes. You don't have to include all the lingo and abbreviations, but new players need to be more comfortable using the Social Panel and interacting with other players. I for one spent the first 27 days soloing everything, right up until I hit level 7. Thank goodness I stumbled onto a couple of helpful players who finally showed me the ropes because I was on the verge of leaving the game when my first 30 days were up. *insert plug for Tazmakein and Arikka who showed me how to love this game*


I'm a big fan of what the Devs are doing, but don't forget about the other 'experiences' that a new player will be having. Give them a chance to make those mistakes early on without consequence so when they hit the Harbor they are better prepared. Losing new players at character generation is only a part of it. Give them the tools and experiences they need before getting 'thrown to the wolves' that are us grizzled vets. :D

While not so much with curse or lightning bolt, there is certainly something to be said for the fear and excitement that a new player experiences the first time they are blinded. I was something of a 3.5 veteran, and knew pretty much what to expect from the game, but the first time I got blinded was a complete and total shock. I feel like it is one of the cooler things in DDO, and, honestly, I wish more effects functioned in such a strong, tangible way.

Including Remove Curse potions, though, would be a great idea. Curse is just no fun at all, and too many new players (and vet players) don't know, or bother, to stock up early on. And some cannot afford them.

Anastasios
09-01-2008, 01:01 PM
Alot of good discussion on this thread...I for one can say I applaud the long awaited change to the UI for character creation and the implementation of a new starter area even if I no longer get to take that extra five minutes watching Euphonia in her chair gesturing me to come hither.

Some of us will remember from the get-go how hard it was to solo any quest...'The Miller's Debt' was not to be taken lightly back in the day. Pretty much any quest was very difficult to solo, and we had nothing but only the help of others in a group to help us achieve completion, so anything that makes it a bit easier for those NEW to the game will benefit all of us that are still around.

There still needs to be more direction for the NEW player though, clearly the changes are positive but not gamebreaking. The real gamebreaking news will be when the NEW player acknowledges he/she has a need for a social achievement they want to meet which makes them feel like they are part of a bigger community. This is, after all, an MMO, and we are graced with not having to use outside TS or Vent servers and can play the game while chatting to the party which is already one of this game's crowning (and sometimes not so crowning lol) features, which gives more of a social aspect to the game than having to type everything.

Most people I know haven't just upped and quit and never came back (except of course the initial mass Exodus before and after Velah), most have come back and have had a blast playing again after their break even if the content is a bit drab. I'm not saying new content is not necessary, but maybe it is about time to incorporate some of those new 'guild' mechanics to the game along with certain other social mechanics (umm you notice recently that ugly 'Prison Sex' armor people have been sporting) that allow you to customize a bit more...and finally how about some talk of titles, maybe even revamp the Favor system abit more...do the things that make the players feel more unique than his/her fellow player and utilize that idea on a larger scale with guilds also.

I like the changes as I said, but the new idea of Hirelings, Henchmen kind of draw away from the social aspect, I can only hope we can see a bit more in the way of what makes an MMO and MMO, and not some meek attempts at getting me or others to stick around because we feel we can't shortman, whoa thank goodness that Henchman was here to save me from shortmanning.

query
09-02-2008, 01:01 AM
GREAT JOB!!!


I too though question Path as too confusing as to the Monk's options of Light/Dark or how the V4 of D&D works as mentioned before. The last thing we want is trying to explain what "Level" means (of the dungeon, of the character or NPC, of the difficulty, etc,) but using the "Path" word.


Since the idea is to quickly start a character and also advance, has anybody considered the terms "Quick start" options and "Quick Advance" for rank/level up advancement? (And I'm not sure after you start advancing if it's one choice or more so I left out the word option or options.)


I think that term is quickly clear. Who hasn't had a game or even many computer programs that have a "Quick Start" guide?

But unlike them, we'll have a fantastic tutorial here that gets them feeling how the game mechanics work...until that first lightning bolt or failed blindness save :p



Again, great job and I look forward for this bringing in new players.

HumanJHawkins
09-03-2008, 12:56 PM
<cut>but it doesn't hurt to try.

Famous last words... Lol. If computers are involved it can always hurt to try. :eek:

Ustice
09-03-2008, 07:10 PM
Famous last words... Lol. If computers are involved it can always hurt to try. :eek:

Theory disproven:



<?php
try {
for ($n = 0; $n < 10; $n++) {
echo (10 - $n) . "<br/>\n";
}
}
catch ($hurt) {
echo $hurt;
}

?>

:p