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View Full Version : Ranged COmbat at low level is Abismal.... When does it get better???



Impaqt
08-25-2008, 12:45 PM
OK, So I Rolled up a new toon last night... GOnna be mostly ranger and I wanted to focus on Ranged combat... I have a couple Rogues with Ranger splashes that I range a bit on at end game, but never really used a bow at low levels so my referece is nil. But when I use a bow on them the firing is consistance and I donthave a problem.

so far at level 3 I cant believe how bad this is. My Bow seems to fire a Second shot every time I fire. Most of the time that second shot doesnt get a roll but burns an arrow. Its really frustrating.

a new player who rolled a ranger would think this game sucks because of how bad this is.

When doe sit get better? Are there any plans to fix this? I dont even want to pull out my bows right now becauseo fhow bad it is.....

ArkoHighStar
08-25-2008, 12:53 PM
rate of fire increases with your level, make sure you are not moving as yo fire as this gives you a -4 penalty, which at high levels is no big deal, but at lvl 2 means you are not hitting at all. At around lvl 6-8 it is very nice especially if combined with a silver bow. The combination of damage dealt and mob hp's at that lvl means you generally can kill a mob before it closes the distance, after that the rate of fire does not keep up with the hp's and well you just make them mad at you. At higher levels you can kite the mobs effectively if you do not have multiple aggro. But then you have to be careful about making everyone chase your mob around.

Impaqt
08-25-2008, 01:03 PM
I get the Movement penalty thing... Its the stupid Firing a second arrow even though I dont have auto attack on and I didnt hit fire again that drives me nuts.

Talon_Moonshadow
08-25-2008, 01:40 PM
It does get better....but even at it's best it is way behind melee (except manyshot)

And it does have excellent tactical advantages that many overlook (because it is slow).

But manyshot is great.
Special arrows are rare, but awesome.
And multiple rangers in a group is a true wonder to behold!

(for more fun, try a lesser reptilian bane bow, and reptillian bane arrows in kobold assault!)

MrCow
08-25-2008, 01:45 PM
And multiple rangers in a group is a true wonder to behold!

Some people might take offense to that as there are ranged attackers that come in more flavors than just ranger. But, generally, having multiple ranged attackers tends to work quite well. Its when you have a melee dominant group that ranged tends to wane in overall use.

Talon_Moonshadow
08-25-2008, 01:58 PM
Some people might take offense to that as there are ranged attackers that come in more flavors than just ranger. But, generally, having multiple ranged attackers tends to work quite well. Its when you have a melee dominant group that ranged tends to wane in overall use.

That's actually what I meant. I've got a ranged Ftr that I love too. And then theere are those repeater bards and rogues running around.

The groups I've been in where 3 or more chars are ranging is really amazing.
But then I've recently gotten my pallie out in the Vale and I see it from the other side of the coin too........I can't get close enough to get any kills when everyone is ranging everything. :(

MrCow
08-25-2008, 02:02 PM
But then I've recently gotten my pallie out in the Vale and I see it from the other side of the coin too........I can't get close enough to get any kills when everyone is ranging everything.

Well, when that happens, find the nearest Returning Halfling and throw it. :D


My Bow seems to fire a Second shot every time I fire.

I can vouch for having that same issue and it was always because I manually attack (hit a button for each strike). If I start clicking a few too many times or faster than the bow is firing then a bow attack is queued up when it becomes ready again, and thus, you fire another shot. Using a Hold-Down-To-Attack method seems to work decently to prevent this (or auto attack).

Also, ranged weapons can easily become out of sync with the actual visual firing sequence (much like casting a spell, setting off the timer, and having no spell go off but no SP consumed). This is usually visible if you use the Hold-Down-To-Attack method and eventually you notice a large enough gap either before or after the attack that shows that your ranged attack is out of sync. On a repeater build this is very noticeable (and several times I was doing my damage during the reloading animation and nothing at all during the firing animation).

Coldin
08-25-2008, 04:19 PM
In a word....never.

In many words, Ranged Combat is always behind melee speed over the long run. Occasionally a Heavy Repeating Crossbow can be outpacing melee, or a Max BaB Archer with Manyshot for 20 seconds.

By the way, that second shot missing way just be a complete miss. Even with the increased arrow flying speed, it can still be difficult to hit a moving target. Plus, Composite Bows still retain the old projectile speed, so it's very difficult to hit a moving target with one unless you're significantly leading the shot.

I've already stated my thoughts about Ranged Combat enough times though. I kinda doubt another length exposition about how to improve would help anything currently, so I'm just going to link over to one of Aesop's posts here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1811885#post1811885).

Freeman
08-25-2008, 04:22 PM
The really sad thing is that this is the FIXED version of ranged combat. When the game was first released, it was even worse. Then they decided to speed it up, to the current disappointing level.

ArkoHighStar
08-25-2008, 04:26 PM
The really sad thing is that this is the FIXED version of ranged combat. When the game was first released, it was even worse. Then they decided to speed it up, to the current disappointing level.

and allow you to fire while moving

Coldin
08-25-2008, 04:32 PM
and allow you to fire while moving

Well, allow you to "reload" while moving, without taking the necessary feats (Dodge, Mobility, Point Black Shot, Shot on the Run).

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if there was some movement or RoF penalty while firing on the run, with Shot on the Run removing that penalty. But I would only accept that if Ranged Combat as a whole were improved.

ArkoHighStar
08-25-2008, 04:34 PM
Well, allow you to "reload" while moving, without taking the necessary feats (Dodge, Mobility, Point Black Shot, Shot on the Run).

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if there was some movement or RoF penalty while firing on the run, with Shot on the Run removing that penalty. But I would only accept that if Ranged Combat as a whole were improved.

4 feats so you could move and shoot at the same time it was classic:D

feynman
08-25-2008, 04:42 PM
When doe sit get better?

Level 20 :)

branmakmuffin
08-25-2008, 04:54 PM
Special arrows are rare, but awesome.
And multiple rangers in a group is a true wonder to behold!
One of the best quests I ever did was a duo Irestone Normal with another ranger (his was 5, mine was 4). We had plenty of arrows (Gob. bane, Giant bane, Holy, Frost, as I recall). It was fun.

Makes me scratch my head when a PUG another character was in couldn't do it, even though we had a full group (we did lack a healer).

boldarblood
08-25-2008, 04:59 PM
Ranged COmbat is Abismal....

fixed the subject... ;)

Missing_Minds
08-25-2008, 05:46 PM
I hate to say it Impact, but low level range is just so horrid, melee your way through it. On my ranged ranger, I sword and boarded up to about lvl 5 before I finally switched over to bows as was my intention.

The only ranged NPC that will not out shoot you is the kobold throwing alchemist fire. Well... once you hit level 2 or 3, I forget. At level 1 they were still out doing me in rate of fire. (no pun intended.)

Yes, ranged combat is still in a very sad state. My only hope is that Codog will continue to be able to work on it as Monk is mostly all fleshed out.

I mean seriously, we have 3 forms of combat in this game. Melee, Ranged, Spells. We still can not reaonablly hit running mobs, and ranged is still extremely slow. Heck, Mobs still out run MM and FM.

If I've been able to put two and two together from all of the stories I have heard correctly, any time something seems to be over powered, there is a HUGE KNEEJERK reaction to nerf it. Range and Stealth/hiding for example. When you have a bunch of ranged people doing their thing, a SINGLE NPC lasts about as long as a group of meleers working a group of NPCs. Other wise it is like the no chance to hit character hopping into melee swinging their little heart out.

If bows (short and long) speed were increased by 30% from what they are now, would be great.
crossbows of all fashions I don't see a need to increase (and people will hate me for this), but, you are supposed to have a long load time between shots.
Throwers... On this one I really don't know what should be done. Yes, the speed needs an increase, but of how much I just don't know. On one point, if the throwing stays as it is (with only one hand) there should be a speed increase, but if throwing gets to the point you could throw 2 (each hands) there shouldn't be an increase as much. Eww.. I just don't like how that works. Throwers really need to be analyized by themselves.

Zaodon
08-25-2008, 06:48 PM
When does it get better?

At level EleventyGoogleplex.

Turial
08-25-2008, 06:57 PM
OK, So I Rolled up a new toon last night... GOnna be mostly ranger and I wanted to focus on Ranged combat... I have a couple Rogues with Ranger splashes that I range a bit on at end game, but never really used a bow at low levels so my referece is nil. But when I use a bow on them the firing is consistance and I donthave a problem.

so far at level 3 I cant believe how bad this is. My Bow seems to fire a Second shot every time I fire. Most of the time that second shot doesnt get a roll but burns an arrow. Its really frustrating.

a new player who rolled a ranger would think this game sucks because of how bad this is.

When doe sit get better? Are there any plans to fix this? I dont even want to pull out my bows right now becauseo fhow bad it is.....

Welcome to our nightmare and our wonderful world.

Pyromaniac
08-26-2008, 06:09 AM
In a word....never.

QFT - Ranged Bank Toon for the win!

Aesop
08-26-2008, 06:13 AM
Gratuitous Post to keep up my reputation for wanting improved Ranged Attacks

Talcyndl
08-26-2008, 07:53 AM
But a Ranger (ranged) heavy Shroud Run is a thing to behold.

Issip
08-26-2008, 10:39 AM
OK, So I Rolled up a new toon last night... GOnna be mostly ranger and I wanted to focus on Ranged combat... I have a couple Rogues with Ranger splashes that I range a bit on at end game, but never really used a bow at low levels so my referece is nil. But when I use a bow on them the firing is consistance and I donthave a problem.

so far at level 3 I cant believe how bad this is. My Bow seems to fire a Second shot every time I fire. Most of the time that second shot doesnt get a roll but burns an arrow. Its really frustrating.

a new player who rolled a ranger would think this game sucks because of how bad this is.

When doe sit get better? Are there any plans to fix this? I dont even want to pull out my bows right now becauseo fhow bad it is.....

When I level a ranged toon I usually start with repeaters until ~lvl 12. This helps a lot in the lower levels, and when you get your third arrow with manyshot (BAB12) and get some STR items on your bow str, and the manyshot make longbows better than repeaters. At that point you can talk to Fred and use some of those stupid red Dragonshards to get your feats straightened out.

As far as the firing of extra arrows I haven't seen the exact problem you describe, but my high level ranger often gets blank shots, sometimes for several rounds where no arrows are fired, and repeaters often miss the first volley if you try to select a target and fire immediately.

Since the ghost shots are not listed as a known issue, and I haven't seen a dev response to any of the ranged issues in many months, I would expect ranged to remain pretty screwed up at least through the rest of the year if not forever.