PDA

View Full Version : This guy had the right idea....



Shattergod
08-20-2008, 03:19 PM
It would be interesting if we could adjust the human versatility line to be toggles instead of clicks.

The values of the set would be adjusted from 1/2/3/4 to 2/4/6, and the bonuses would be reduced to 1/2/3. These toggles would be independant of one another, so the character could have a bonus to saves OR a bonus to attack OR a bonus to damage and so forth.

This would make Human Versatility Valuable in a variety of situations while still not being overpowering in comparison to other races abilities. A dwarf, for example, could get +2 to Attack AND Damage with Axes, whereas a human would have to choose between attack or damage, and so forth.

Seriously. This is arguably one of the best ideas I have seen.

I've been going over the past threads... thinking about necroing them... and some people seem to stand out with some genuinely good ideas.

This guy is one of them.

redoubt
08-20-2008, 03:28 PM
That also means that someone who depends on the +5 boost for 20 seconds to accomplish something, like pick a lock or UMD an item loses 2 points.

Shattergod
08-20-2008, 03:36 PM
In the grand scheme of things... giving humans far far more real versitility than they currently enjoy outweighs the negatives... further that rogue can just invest in rogue action boost.

Uska
08-20-2008, 04:06 PM
disagree with all your points I like the burst +5 myself thank you.

Shattergod
08-20-2008, 04:43 PM
disagree with all your points I like the burst +5 myself thank you.

I'm glad you elaborated why disagreed, and went on to tell me that the burst +5 was good for the game and the human race in general but why an enhancement that provided greater and longer lasting versatility would not be.

Shagn
08-20-2008, 05:13 PM
I don't have a human character myself, but I agree with the OP - a great idea. Human Versatility is more of a hassle than an enjoyment (along with how clickies got nerfed with the cooldown timer). Is being versatile supposed to be a hassle and a pain in the arse?

xanvar
08-20-2008, 05:18 PM
I do like this idea. Having values that are always on seems to me to make humans a more viable class. True the human rogues will hurt a small bit but over all it would really help the race alot.

Uska
08-20-2008, 05:26 PM
I'm glad you elaborated why disagreed, and went on to tell me that the burst +5 was good for the game and the human race in general but why an enhancement that provided greater and longer lasting versatility would not be.

His idea doesnt provide greater but it does provide longer lasting ability maybe giving a choice of either one would be alright and least this idea is better then some of the others I have read.

Noctus
08-20-2008, 06:59 PM
Good idea.

Could bring the human enhancements up tot he level of the enhancements of the other races.

WeaselKing
08-20-2008, 07:06 PM
Kill the humans!!







That is all.

Uska
08-20-2008, 08:14 PM
Kill the humans!!







That is all.

Well keep a pair for the zoo

Wan6Tan6
08-20-2008, 08:28 PM
What happens when they want to breed?

eonfreon
08-20-2008, 08:46 PM
I would only be behind this if it was voluntary at creation. It is nice for a Human character to have access to that +5 at endgame. Makes Rogue multiclasses,that are not Ranger, viable for Humans at least. I have a 14 Wizard/ 2 Rogue who would be hurt by this change. I like my +5 Skill Boost and it works well when I need to do traps or for my UMD.
Please do not monkey around with Human Versatility without making it optional.
Thank you.

GeneralDiomedes
08-20-2008, 08:49 PM
This suggestion was very common when mod 3.3 details were first announced. They didn't change it then, and they won't change it now.

Shattergod
08-20-2008, 09:10 PM
This suggestion was very common when mod 3.3 details were first announced. They didn't change it then, and they won't change it now.

You know this... how?

GeneralDiomedes
08-20-2008, 09:51 PM
You know this... how?

That's my best prediction based on some dev at some point in time (I think it was Eladrin) stating they prefer boosts over toggles when it comes to increased stats (Monk stances being the only real exception AFAIK). Sorry, I couldn't be bothered to find the post. Anyhow, they have known about alternatives for over a year and done nothing about it, not even said anything on the subject .. that should tell you that it's not a priority.

Shattergod
08-20-2008, 10:40 PM
That's my best prediction based on some dev at some point in time (I think it was Eladrin) stating they prefer boosts over toggles when it comes to increased stats (Monk stances being the only real exception AFAIK). Sorry, I couldn't be bothered to find the post. Anyhow, they have known about alternatives for over a year and done nothing about it, not even said anything on the subject .. that should tell you that it's not a priority.

They're also in the process of rebalancing racial enhancements... and they've made comments stating they wish to largely increase everyones power rather than decrease say... dwarves.

Lillitheris
08-21-2008, 05:19 AM
... and they've made comments stating they wish to largely increase everyones power rather than decrease say... dwarves.

That's an awesome idea! We are not NEARLY powerful enough already, go Turbine! :rolleyes:

On the other hand.. what else can they really do? Nerfing the hell out of dwarves will make a lot people very angry. It would be the best decision in the long run, but I doubt Turbine has the balls to pull it off.

Dirac
08-21-2008, 09:05 AM
I think the posts are gone. Many of us who were infuriated by the elimination of static HV (um, I still haven't gotten over that, btw), when it became clear that they were not going to leave it, begged to at lest keep a static enhancement but lower it to +3 if the devs thought it was overpowered. As GD said, they didn't do it then, and most likely won't do it now. What you are suggesting is even more powerful, a +3 static HV is but one of 5 possible toggles a Human could have.

Humans have made quite a bit of gain. The evidence suggests that Humans are not so underpowered given the large numbers of them that are being rolled. The extra ability enhancement was a bone they threw to humans to compensate that turned out to be nice bonus to humans.

MysticTheurge
08-21-2008, 09:10 AM
This guy had the right idea....

Back in February.

http://www.freewebs.com/cortlesteeze/pix/ThreadNecro.jpg

Kaboth
08-21-2008, 09:12 AM
That's an awesome idea! We are not NEARLY powerful enough already, go Turbine! :rolleyes:

On the other hand.. what else can they really do? Nerfing the hell out of dwarves will make a lot people very angry. It would be the best decision in the long run, but I doubt Turbine has the balls to pull it off.


Why not? They nerfed Human Enhancers a LONNNNnnnnng time ago. Human Versatilty use to be OH so much better. People still play Humans..... They nerfed the heck out of Drow SR by making it you had to blow enhancers on it, a lot of them to for SR that is so/so at best. People still play drow, albeit not as much. Now this is not my cry to nerf Dwarves either, but if Turbine wanted to nerf Dwarves, they already have a history of nerfing other races.

Shattergod
08-21-2008, 01:16 PM
Why not? They nerfed Human Enhancers a LONNNNnnnnng time ago. Human Versatilty use to be OH so much better. People still play Humans..... They nerfed the heck out of Drow SR by making it you had to blow enhancers on it, a lot of them to for SR that is so/so at best. People still play drow, albeit not as much. Now this is not my cry to nerf Dwarves either, but if Turbine wanted to nerf Dwarves, they already have a history of nerfing other races.

The new, and rather very potent Halfling enhancements are proof that the Devs wish to "bring up" the power level of the races, rather than "bring down".


All races should be attractive to players, not just dwarves.

The above noted "Human Versatility" change would go a long way towards augmenting human flavor, and human potency.

Allistair
08-21-2008, 01:24 PM
The new, and rather very potent Halfling enhancements are proof that the Devs wish to "bring up" the power level of the races, rather than "bring down".


All races should be attractive to players, not just dwarves.

The above noted "Human Versatility" change would go a long way towards augmenting human flavor, and human potency.

Well the first step to bringing up the level of Humans would be to un-nerf Human Versatility and make it as it use to be,
and constantly on as being human isn't something you can toggle on and off. And a 20 second boost?? So I'm only human for 20 seconds at
a time, X amount of times per day?? Give me a break.
They Broke this when they changed it, and should chamge it back and make it worth something again.

Shattergod
08-21-2008, 01:47 PM
Well the first step to bringing up the level of Humans would be to un-nerf Human Versatility and make it as it use to be,
and constantly on as being human isn't something you can toggle on and off. And a 20 second boost?? So I'm only human for 20 seconds at
a time, X amount of times per day?? Give me a break.
They Broke this when they changed it, and should chamge it back and make it worth something again.

The "toggle" would be on all the time if you wished it... it would just be on for different things.

Like the above idea would give humans (if based off the current scheme)

Attack
Armour
Damage
Saves
Skills

Each of these would be a toggle that the player could toggle on and off... if they wanted a + to damage they would toggle the damage toggle on... if they wanted a + to saves they would toggle the saves toggle on (which would then shut off the damage toggle), if they wanted + to skills they would toggle that on, shutting off saves.

This is the versatility part.

Uska
08-21-2008, 01:51 PM
The "toggle" would be on all the time if you wished it... it would just be on for different things.

Like the above idea would give humans (if based off the current scheme)

Attack
Armour
Damage
Saves
Skills

Each of these would be a toggle that the player could toggle on and off... if they wanted a + to damage they would toggle the damage toggle on... if they wanted a + to saves they would toggle the saves toggle on (which would then shut off the damage toggle), if they wanted + to skills they would toggle that on, shutting off saves.

This is the versatility part.



way to much power there


maybe a toggle between skills and saves that sounds a lot more reasonable

Shattergod
08-21-2008, 01:57 PM
way to much power there


maybe a toggle between skills and saves that sounds a lot more reasonable

+3 damage is "way too much power"?

Dwarves get +2 to attack AND damage with axes (not exactly the worst weapons in the game) ALL THE TIME.... in addition to their bonuses on saves vs. spells, etc etc..

So... you're telling me... with a straight face... that a dwarf who, for roughly the same cost as a human who spends three levels worth of enhancement points, gets to have a +2 to these bonuses on all the time... AND at the SAME time... is overshadowed by a human who spends said three levels worth of enhancement points... and gets a +3 to one of these at any given time?


Seriously... you're telling me that.... with a straight face?

You need to introduce me to your dealer. Seriously. I don't do drugs, but he must have some magnificent product.

jkm
08-21-2008, 02:06 PM
dude, when it comes to dwarves they'll say it all day long.

the fact that a dwarf can choose to:

add 50 hit points over any other race
have 3 extra AC in armor over any other race
add +2 to hit on axes
add +2 to damage on axes
add a free +4 to resist any spell
add +3 to ALL tactical feats
add +2 to their constitution
add what 40 extra spell points if they are a cleric?

versus
the ability to add 30% healing
add 92.5 seconds of +5 to something
add +1 to 2 different stats, one of which is normally con

personally if you want to make humans golden, here is something that follows their pnp preferred class mantra ->

allow humans to bypass the class level restriction on enhancements...

jkm
08-21-2008, 02:13 PM
one other thing about HV damage enhancements...

with the delay, you actually do less damage pushing HV in fights than if you would have just kept swinging

for 2 weapon fighting you lose 6 attacks that have to made up for 5 points of damage at a time
for 2 handed fighting you lose 4 attacks that once again have to be made up

Kaboth
08-21-2008, 02:21 PM
The new, and rather very potent Halfling enhancements are proof that the Devs wish to "bring up" the power level of the races, rather than "bring down".


All races should be attractive to players, not just dwarves.

The above noted "Human Versatility" change would go a long way towards augmenting human flavor, and human potency.

Well, the tendacy is too bring down, rather than buff up game items, and I am not saying you are wrong, maybe they are buffing up all races. But then Turbine will fall in to a "mudflation" cycle and potentially "break the game" so to speak. Human Versatility the old way, i personally loved and miss very much, but then again I am a skill ***** LOL, but I am sure the HV line with boosts works really good for some other players or their playstyles, not to mention if they multi-class, HV is a much superior choice than the boosts from the base classes. I still like Humans even after the enhancer nerf, and over half my characters are Humans. I run a human, Sorc, Bard, MC rog/ftr/rgr, cleric, and monk. Dont regret any of their classes being human. I think people forget how good 1 extra free feat of your choosing and 1 extra skill point per level (right now thats 16 extra skill points) and the human recovery and HV Boosts and the human attribute boosts enhancers. I am not saying humans are the best min/maxed race for everything, but I think people dont give them enough credit either.

KKDragonLord
08-21-2008, 08:53 PM
Well with all disscussion aside from what "Could go wrong if they did it the wrong way" the base of the idea is the same they based the 4th edition abilities gameplay improvement, and that is and i quote: "in 3.5 buffs and spells had such short durations that made the players feel like rats in a maze hitting a button repeatedly to get food" Turbine went on and added even shorter duration "action buffs" on top of that.
This idea is a distinct way of rethinking abilities and lessening the heavy "rat factor" that 3.5 is so filled up with.

Uska
08-21-2008, 11:29 PM
+3 damage is "way too much power"?

Dwarves get +2 to attack AND damage with axes (not exactly the worst weapons in the game) ALL THE TIME.... in addition to their bonuses on saves vs. spells, etc etc..

So... you're telling me... with a straight face... that a dwarf who, for roughly the same cost as a human who spends three levels worth of enhancement points, gets to have a +2 to these bonuses on all the time... AND at the SAME time... is overshadowed by a human who spends said three levels worth of enhancement points... and gets a +3 to one of these at any given time?


Seriously... you're telling me that.... with a straight face?

You need to introduce me to your dealer. Seriously. I don't do drugs, but he must have some magnificent product.

As far as drugs read my sig and me I wouldnt boost humans I would nerf everyone else the power level in ddo is way insane and needs to be toned down and yes I belive that your little suggestion is to much, no +3 damge isnt to much but giving the choice between skill,ac,damge or saves is to much

lucien123
08-21-2008, 11:42 PM
What might work really well for HV would be if you could only chose one line? Saves, damage, skill, etc, and it was always on. That would reflect the diverse nature of humans. I don't agree with toggles that allow you to mix and match; NOW I've got skills, NOW I've got saves, NOW I've got 3 to damage. I would like this if you had to CHOSE a line and then followed it to completion, and +3 to whatever would not be overpowered, at least not when compared to dwarves.

Uska
08-21-2008, 11:51 PM
What might work really well for HV would be if you could only chose one line? Saves, damage, skill, etc, and it was always on. That would reflect the diverse nature of humans. I don't agree with toggles that allow you to mix and match; NOW I've got skills, NOW I've got saves, NOW I've got 3 to damage. I would like this if you had to CHOSE a line and then followed it to completion, and +3 to whatever would not be overpowered, at least not when compared to dwarves.

Thats better I also thought a toggle with a choice of one of two wouldnt be to bad.

Guildmaster_Kadish
08-22-2008, 12:36 AM
allow humans to bypass the class level restriction on enhancements...

That would be absolutely ridiculous.

Can you imagine the problems it would cause?

I'll outline a few:

1 Level of Rogue for 1d6+12 sneak attack damage.
1 Level of Paladin for +5 AC aura.
1 Level of Paladin for +4 Saves aura.
1 Level of Fighter for armor mastery enhancements.
1 Level of Monk for max level stances.
1 Level of Any Class for +3 to its primary stat (ie, human 1 rgr/1 barb/1 ftr could get 3 dex, 3 strength, and 3 con... plus the human stat enhancements).
1 Level of Barbarian for Improved Crit Range 1 & 2.
1 Level of Ranger for Tempest and 6 extra damage vs. FE's.


That idea would be even worse than the OP's overpowered suggestion.

branmakmuffin
08-22-2008, 12:44 AM
Human Versatility the old way, i personally loved and miss very much
Me, too, mostly because I hate to "twitch," so I prefer octagonal things to square ones (if I want to twitch, I can play an FPS or one of my kid's PS/2 games).

Guildmaster_Kadish
08-22-2008, 12:58 AM
Me, too, mostly because I hate to "twitch," so I prefer octagonal things to square ones (if I want to twitch, I can play an FPS or one of my kid's PS/2 games).

Honestly, I agree--if Human Versatility is going to get a change, it ought to just go back to the way it used to be.

branmakmuffin
08-22-2008, 01:14 AM
Honestly, I agree--if Human Versatility is going to get a change, it ought to just go back to the way it used to be.
I wasn't active when they made the change. Did they make it because the new way is more "versatile" (which I suppose it is), or because the old way was too "00ber?"

Kromize
08-22-2008, 01:23 AM
disagree with all your points I like the burst +5 myself thank you.

I like the original +4 passive...:mad: Made my fighter build be umd-able...:/ Still is...but I just don't like the few boosts you get...or the concept...have a high enough umd to equip it...then take umd stuff off and be able to keep using the item that is dependent on umd? :confused:


OP's overpowered suggestion.

lol...if the original post is overpowered...umm...I think just about every other enhancement in the game is "overpowered" and outright ridiculous. Why should a barb get better crit range? Why should a dwarf get more hp? Why should elves get arcane fluidity? Why should rangers get the tempest bonus?

Turbine needs to remake and balance the enhancements around the current enhancement system. Make race enhancements useful for all class types, make class types enhancements useful for most/all build possibilities. And then add in a bunch of generic enhancements dependant of feats skills, and stats that you have taken and increased through leveling. Say, for example, f you have toughness, you get the enhancements, or if u have shield prof and mastery, you get bonus shield enhancements to be able to block passively, like a true warrior using a shield.(multi stage, and make it so you can move around(walk speed) while actively blocking with it.

etc.etc.etc...bed time for me...imma stop ranting

Lithic
08-22-2008, 01:57 AM
+3 damage is "way too much power"?

Dwarves get +2 to attack AND damage with axes (not exactly the worst weapons in the game) ALL THE TIME.... in addition to their bonuses on saves vs. spells, etc etc..

So... you're telling me... with a straight face... that a dwarf who, for roughly the same cost as a human who spends three levels worth of enhancement points, gets to have a +2 to these bonuses on all the time... AND at the SAME time... is overshadowed by a human who spends said three levels worth of enhancement points... and gets a +3 to one of these at any given time?


Seriously... you're telling me that.... with a straight face?

You need to introduce me to your dealer. Seriously. I don't do drugs, but he must have some magnificent product.

Just wait till the dwarf-lovers start up on the "But +3 skills is like 25 feats in one enhancement!", yeah like people ever take skill focus: swim and skill focus: listen and skill focus: hide and skill focus move silently and skill focus bluff and skill focus diplomacy and etc..etc..etc... Then you mention the whole 3 toughness feats worth of hp, or the weapon focus + weapon spec + greater weapon focus they can get and all you get back is "but thats only 3 feats!, not 387 feats like +3 to skills!" over and over and over.

To some other poster, the only reason you see humans around is for more skill points, and 1 more feat. These are basic pen and paper benfits which were balanced against other racial benefits (hello +1 saves/ac for half-pints, insert dwarf stuff) and cannot be taken into account when talkig about balancing enhancements.


As far as the enhancement to choose any of those as a perm bonus, its rather much. The bonus to all skills makes some sense and is hardly overpowered compared to other races, but to give you the choice of damage, ac, saves, and others would really put humans over the top. They would become Dwarves 2.0. Something else that would help would be a 10/20/30/40 healing boost costing 1/2/3/4 enhancements, rather than the current 2/4/6 system. What a joke that is.

QuantumFX
08-22-2008, 03:22 AM
The list appears mighty indeed until you actually think about it.




1 Level of Rogue for 1d6+12 sneak attack damage. Halflings already get this and their version stacks with the rogue version.
1 Level of Paladin for +5 AC aura. For the low low cost of 10 APs.
1 Level of Paladin for +4 Saves aura. For the low low cost of 6 APs.
1 Level of Fighter for armor mastery enhancements. Dwarves already get this and their version stacks with the fighter version.
1 Level of Monk for max level stances. All you need to do is remain centered... Yeah right.
1 Level of Any Class for +3 to its primary stat (ie, human 1 rgr/1 barb/1 ftr could get 3 dex, 3 strength, and 3 con... plus the human stat enhancements). This issue I can agree with. But, read the stuff below anyway.
1 Level of Barbarian for Improved Crit Range 1 & 2. This issue I can almost agree with except for the fact that a 1 level guy would be able to rage for about 1 minute between shrines.
1 Level of Ranger for Tempest and 6 extra damage vs. FE's. Tempest would cost non rangers 2 feats over the 1 level dipper (TWF and ITWF) and no one is stupid enough to spend 10 AP's on one favored enemy.



Anyway, any adaptation of Human multiclassing prowess from P&P would have to be limited to one class. (And following NWN's example it would be the class in which you have the most levels.)

Personally, I'd rather see "additional use" enhancements added to the current HV enhancement and the ability to add class boosts to the HV collection. (ex. I dip a level of rogue and can add the full haste boost clickie to HV for 1 AP cost.) Also, HV should be allowed to substitute for a similar action boost for PrE's. (Ex. HV should be able to stand in for Rogue Skill Action Boost for Way of the Mechanic or Rogue Damage Boost for Way of the Assassin.) Note: in the case of rogues a human still would not be able to take both WotM and WotA as they're class specific.

Borror0
08-22-2008, 03:40 AM
The list appears mighty indeed until you actually think about it.

Really? Someone multiclass just for these!

People get 6 levels of ranger mostly for Tempest.
Critical Rage is bugged and works while unraged (unless they changed it).
And some people want the paladin levels for the auras.

Really, all in all, it's overpowered.

A better suggestion would be to allow humans to get enhancements one level earlier.
For example, a 14 fighter/2 paladin human could get Bulwark of Good I.

As for HV, as much as I hate clickies, a static +3 to skills is... overpowered to say the least.

now, if it's a +3 to saves, damage, attack, etc. It's grossly overpowered.

Shattergod
08-22-2008, 03:45 AM
now, if it's a +3 to saves, damage, attack, etc. It's grossly overpowered.

As opposed to +2 to attack with axes, damage with axes, ac, and saves v. spells, and +50 more hitpoints than anyone else can get all at the same time... then it's all okay.


Right.


Borror Z'rro -- Dwarven Defender


*sigh*

Borror0
08-22-2008, 03:56 AM
As opposed to +2 to attack with axes, damage with axes, ac, and saves v. spells, and +50 more hitpoints than anyone else can get all at the same time... then it's all okay.

+50 HP... yes that's overpowered!

AC, it comes with an high cost. It costs 2, 4, 6 and you got to have enoguh Dex for it. Don't go like they are freebee points. They aren't.
Axes? It's 2, 4 for +2 damage to only Axes!!! Then, 2, 4 for to-hit!

Your suggestion is more powerful than all of that together!

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for bringing all classes in par with dwarves... but this is riddiculous.

Shattergod
08-22-2008, 04:42 AM
+50 HP... yes that's overpowered!

AC, it comes with an high cost. It costs 2, 4, 6 and you got to have enoguh Dex for it. Don't go like they are freebee points. They aren't.
Axes? It's 2, 4 for +2 damage to only Axes!!! Then, 2, 4 for to-hit!

Your suggestion is more powerful than all of that together!

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for bringing all classes in par with dwarves... but this is riddiculous.

Sure.

Fill me in on how +2 to attack and damage to any axe in the game at the same time... is weaker than +3 damage?

Tell me how +2 Attack and damage to axes is weaker than +3 armor class...

Tell me how +2 attack and damage to axes than +3 saves...


What you just don't seem to get... is that


NONE OF THESE BONUSES ARE CUMULATIVE WITH EACH OTHER... YOU DO NOT GET +3 ATTACK *AND* DAMAGE.... YOU GET ONE OR THE OTHER.

At no time is the bonus greater than +3... EVER.... the beauty of the enhancement is that it shifts to accomodate the player.... but you're still sitting with just a +3 bonus.


Further... humans effectively only GET 3 enhancement lines... so the enhancements they DO get must be potent.


Look, you're a dwarf apologists who just wants to remain on top of the pile. Nothing less, nothing more.


You just completely discounted the benefit of FIFTY HIT POINTS... If I have FIVE HUNDRED HITPOINTS... that's TEN PERCENT of my total HP.

That's nothing to sneeze at.

If I'm a dwarf wizard.... it might be fully a fourth of my total HP.

But apparently that's no big deal...

*rolls eyes*


I hate self serving people.

Borror0
08-22-2008, 05:20 AM
Fill me in on how +2 to attack and damage to any axe in the game at the same time... is weaker than +3 damage?

That can't be a serious question.

Assuming you hit on a 2, +3 damage is better than +2 damage. Even more since that +3 damage can apply to any weapon, and is not limited to only axes. That means that this +3 damage will apply to khopeshes and if I need to explain you why +3 damage with khopeshes kicks butt, let me know.

Simply put, that will make of humans the #1 choice for damage dealers! At the very least, on d12 and d10 classes. +3 to damage is better than +2 to damage and to-hit, in a game where we hit on a 2. Besides, if you don't hit on a 2 you just have to toggle the +3 attack bonus instead of the +3 damage bonus. Remember, it's called Human Versatility. You adapt yourself.

With mass heals becoming as common as they are (and it's going to get more and more common with Heal, Mass), a bonus feat and +3 to damage/attack, humans will be the new overpowered race. They will just kick serious butts.


Tell me how +2 Attack and damage to axes is weaker than +3 armor class...

Ask any Intimitank, between +2 damage and +3 AC, he'll probably go for +3 AC.


Tell me how +2 attack and damage to axes than +3 saves...

It's not.


NONE OF THESE BONUSES ARE CUMULATIVE WITH EACH OTHER... YOU DO NOT GET +3 ATTACK *AND* DAMAGE.... YOU GET ONE OR THE OTHER.

So? They can adapt!

Need damage? Voilà! Damage!
Need attack? There ya go!

There's only very few situations where +2 attack and damage beats +3 to-hit or damage.


Further... humans effectively only GET 3 enhancement lines... so the enhancements they DO get must be potent.

Add more enhancements, don't make an overpowered one.


Look, you're a dwarf apologists who just wants to remain on top of the pile. Nothing less, nothing more.

Failed Psychology check. I tried to nerf dwarves multiple times.

Before you try to analyze me a second time, check this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=144885). Read all the 11 pages.


You just completely discounted the benefit of FIFTY HIT POINTS... If I have FIVE HUNDRED HITPOINTS... that's TEN PERCENT of my total HP.

That's nothing to sneeze at.

If I'm a dwarf wizard.... it might be fully a fourth of my total HP.

But apparently that's no big deal...

You missed the part where I:

admited +50 HP was overpowered
tried to nerf it multiple times
was always on the 'It's overpowered' side.

Yes, Toughness is broken. Something has to be done about it, but that is irrevelant to this discussion.


I hate self serving people.

So, the fact that you're trying to boost humans isn't self serving?:rolleyes:

QuantumFX
08-22-2008, 06:13 AM
Really? Someone multiclass just for these!

People get 6 levels of ranger mostly for Tempest.
Critical Rage is bugged and works while unraged (unless they changed it).
And some people want the paladin levels for the auras.

Really, all in all, it's overpowered.

A better suggestion would be to allow humans to get enhancements one level earlier.
For example, a 14 fighter/2 paladin human could get Bulwark of Good I.

As for HV, as much as I hate clickies, a static +3 to skills is... overpowered to say the least.

now, if it's a +3 to saves, damage, attack, etc. It's grossly overpowered.

So I take it you didn't even bother reading the whole post.

Borror0
08-22-2008, 06:23 AM
So I take it you didn't even bother reading the whole post.

I did, even just re-read it now. Does my lack of sleep make me miss something?:confused:

redoubt
08-22-2008, 07:28 AM
I'm glad you elaborated why disagreed, and went on to tell me that the burst +5 was good for the game and the human race in general but why an enhancement that provided greater and longer lasting versatility would not be.

Because this game is mostly about bursts anyway. Lots of short fast battles. UMD maximum, search and disable a couple traps at max skill levels, boost you defense or attack for one of those short battles.

I have characters that would be helped by your way and I have characters that would be hurt by it. At this point, I'd rather not change this one, unless they left it at +5.

Razvan
08-22-2008, 07:43 AM
I DID NOT KNOW THAT...What the...?!?:confused:


Critical Rage is bugged and works while unraged (unless they changed it).

Kaboth
08-22-2008, 09:04 AM
I wasn't active when they made the change. Did they make it because the new way is more "versatile" (which I suppose it is), or because the old way was too "00ber?"


The old way was "too" uber according to Turbine , people basically complained that humans got a "free" Skill Focus feat for all their skills. Now how this was TOO uber as opposed to what other races are given and allowed in their enhancer line is really beyond me. I think the only race that needs to be upgraded (if they are opposed to bring down other races) beside humans is possibly drow.

Ikuryo
08-22-2008, 10:27 AM
If I remember right the only HV was a flat +4 passive boost to all skills. There was no dmg bonus or save bonus or to hit or AC bonuses. It was just the passive bonus to all skills. As was said they said it was the same as getting skill focus for all the skills in the game for one enhancement chain and made the change they did. First they changed it to just a skill boost enhancement and then they added the other bonuses to try and make it more worthwhile. As a simple enhancement bonus there was almost no use for it with all the class skill bonuses which it did not work with.

Oh and as a passive skill it stacked with the ranger and rogue skill boosts for some really nice skill levels for a short time. When they changed HV I had to go through and redo my ranger enhancements and change some of my gear, I could no longer get UMD high enough for it. Although it would be nice if it was changed back I kind of like being able to punch +dmg or +to-hit before kicking off a manyshot burst. I'm not sure how the other human classes feel though.

Aeneas
08-22-2008, 10:35 AM
Healing amplification alone puts humans on the same playing field with any other race.

KKDragonLord
08-22-2008, 12:21 PM
Lol this thread was completely hijacked

Shattergod
08-22-2008, 01:22 PM
Healing amplification alone puts humans on the same playing field with any other race.

and then I got high...

Borror0
08-22-2008, 01:28 PM
and then I got high...

While Aenas is not totally right to say so, Improved Recovery is gaining Strength.

While Module 4 & 5 were the modules of Heal, mass heals are strating to shine with Module 6 & 7 and that's a trned that will continue. Mass healing are slower, but they affect the whole party. When you're in a raid, that's pretty much the best thing to do. However, mass heals are weaker than Heal (obviously), and that's why Improved Recovery is getting stronger. By increasing the amount healed, it increases your chances to stay alive.

It's more and more frequent to have clerics mass healing and poping and heal scroll if needed. (There again, Improved Recovery helps as Heal scrolls won't fill you up like Heal would.) Once we get level 9 spells and Heal, Mass it will be even truer because mass healing will be what most clerics will do at level cap.

Borror0
08-22-2008, 01:29 PM
I DID NOT KNOW THAT...What the...?!?:confused:

Last time I changed, around Module 6, Critical Rage worked while unraged.

Missing_Minds
08-22-2008, 01:41 PM
You know this... how?

We were around back then and argued for the same thing. They still chose to make it a boost regardless of how much we stated we wanted it different. We did agree that the incarnation before the boost method was over powered, however, reducing it to a boost means that humans are really only more vercityle a small percentage of their life which was just very stupid reasoning to a lot of players.
Human versatility is more actually now a human luck bonus at which point they increase their chance for success X number of times a day. I thought halflings were the ones that were supposed to be "lucky" afterall. Guess they had to get it from somewhere.

Yes, I would much prefer human versatility be static rather than a boost. Always have, always will.


It's more and more frequent to have clerics mass healing and poping and heal scroll if needed. (There again, Improved Recovery helps as Heal scrolls won't fill you up like Heal would.) Once we get level 9 spells and Heal, Mass it will be even truer because mass healing will be what most clerics will do at level cap.

I agree with this, and it because of the idea of spamming mass heal I wonder if clerics will actually get said spell. I mean look at arcanes, Charm Monster: Mass oh wait, over powered. Just have a higher level version of charm monster. Ugh.

jkm
08-22-2008, 02:20 PM
That would be absolutely ridiculous.

Can you imagine the problems it would cause?

I'll outline a few:

1 Level of Rogue for 1d6+12 sneak attack damage.
1 Level of Paladin for +5 AC aura.
1 Level of Paladin for +4 Saves aura.
1 Level of Fighter for armor mastery enhancements.
1 Level of Monk for max level stances.
1 Level of Any Class for +3 to its primary stat (ie, human 1 rgr/1 barb/1 ftr could get 3 dex, 3 strength, and 3 con... plus the human stat enhancements).
1 Level of Barbarian for Improved Crit Range 1 & 2.
1 Level of Ranger for Tempest and 6 extra damage vs. FE's.


That idea would be even worse than the OP's overpowered suggestion.

before you get your dwarven beard in a twist, notice i said take out the LEVEL requirements, not the action points spent requirements. you couldn't get all of them because you would gimp the ever loving **** out of your character.

in your example, 1 rgr/1 barb/1 fighter

you have to spend 4 aps to open up level 1 abilities
so buying 1 of each would cause you to spend 6 aps (10 total)
you have to spend 16 to get to tier 2 so having +2 in each stat is 4 points a piece bringing us to 28 aps spent for +2 in dex, con and str

the next tier you can't get til you have spent 36 and they are 6 a piece so we have spent 54 action points to get +3 in each stat with a total of

you have 22 action points of which 4 must be low level, 8 must be mid level and 10 can be high level

cdbd3rd
08-22-2008, 02:34 PM
Honestly, I agree--if Human Versatility is going to get a change, it ought to just go back to the way it used to be.


At which point I would go back to playing my neutral human SoTR repeater rogue again. :p

Maybe.:rolleyes:


Seriously, I don't see us getting the original HV version back. I do see a few suggestions thru the thread that could be doable.

Borror0
08-22-2008, 02:34 PM
before you get your dwarven beard in a twist, notice i said take out the LEVEL requirements, not the action points spent requirements. you couldn't get all of them because you would gimp the ever loving **** out of your character.

It would still be overpowered. You could still get all Aura enhancements by splashing 1/2 level of paladin! A 14 barbarian/2 fighter could get +2/3 to his Str!

The list goes on.

jkm
08-22-2008, 02:34 PM
did we just skip over where i stated that the +5 damage clicky lowered your dps because of the time it takes to initialize it?

healing amplification? its amazing to me how it costs 12 action points to get 30% better healing but only 10 to get 50 hit points.

on my cleric, i HAAATE healing amplification versus hit points because there is a lot less margin for error. dwarves are 10x easier to keep alive than humans, because i either overheal or underestimate how much healing they need (sorry about that all you human monks). at least with raw hit points i can judge if they need a heal scroll or me to cast the spell.

jkm
08-22-2008, 02:49 PM
It would still be overpowered. You could still get all Aura enhancements by splashing 1/2 level of paladin! A 14 barbarian/2 fighter could get +2/3 to his Str!

The list goes on.

so here is my question, how is this enhancement any different than dwarf enhancements other than a larger scope? you know the dwarf class where you get stacking bonuses from the fighter class that you can take for just being dwarf?

Borror0
08-22-2008, 03:03 PM
so here is my question, how is this enhancement any different than dwarf enhancements other than a larger scope? you know the dwarf class where you get stacking bonuses from the fighter class that you can take for just being dwarf?

Errr... because dwarf can't get:

Barbarian Power Attack with a single barbarian splash.
Fighter Strength with a single fighter splash.
Stronger favored enemies or Tempest with a single ranger splash.
1d6+12 Sneak Attack with a single rogue splash.
Better Improved Recovery with a single monk splash.
Energy of the Dragonblooded IV with a single spalsh of sorcerer.
+5 AC with a single paladin splash.
Toughness with a single barbarian/fighter/paladin splash!!!

Sorry, but any of these is more powerful than any bonus dwarves can get... and you can get many of them at the same time!:eek:

Guildmaster_Kadish
08-22-2008, 03:20 PM
before you get your dwarven beard in a twist, notice i said take out the LEVEL requirements, not the action points spent requirements. you couldn't get all of them because you would gimp the ever loving **** out of your character.

in your example, 1 rgr/1 barb/1 fighter

you have to spend 4 aps to open up level 1 abilities
so buying 1 of each would cause you to spend 6 aps (10 total)
you have to spend 16 to get to tier 2 so having +2 in each stat is 4 points a piece bringing us to 28 aps spent for +2 in dex, con and str

the next tier you can't get til you have spent 36 and they are 6 a piece so we have spent 54 action points to get +3 in each stat with a total of

you have 22 action points of which 4 must be low level, 8 must be mid level and 10 can be high level

Two things:
My dwarf has a mustache, not a beard. :eek::D;)
I don't ever recall action point cost preventing people from splashing 6 levels of ranger for tempest... or from taking ac/saves aura enhancements... or from making an archer with 14 LEVELS of barbarian just for crit rage... or how doing any of these "gimp the loving ****" out of such characters (well, except for the ranged barbarian one, since a full ranger ends up doing more damage due to FE's).

My point is, yes, you're correct, you won't likely be taking all the high-level enhancements from every class, because you simply don't have the action points. But you can pick and choose the best of the best--a single ranger splash for tempest (which actually doesn't cost all that much AP-wise), a single paladin splash for 5 ac and 4 saves and paladin toughness....

Humans would immediately become the master race, but it would be even worse than how dwarves are now--instead of just having more hitpoints, humans would actually be able to do things that simply could not be done by other races--paladins with tempest and barbarian crit rage, monks with tons of sneak attack damage and even more ridiculous ac than ever before... the list goes on. I don't care how you slice the cake, that simply isn't a good idea.

jkm
08-22-2008, 03:40 PM
Errr... because dwarf can't get:

Barbarian Power Attack with a single barbarian splash. - well 1 level gets you barb pa 1 and i'm not sure barb pa 2 and 3 is any more powerful than the 4-5 other fighter enhancements that dwarves get
Fighter Strength with a single fighter splash. - just make the attribute increases not apply to human x
Stronger favored enemies or Tempest with a single ranger splash. dwarves get a favored enemy enhancement line already - goblinoid. a single level of ranger would make a human get 1, i repeat, 1 favored enemy
1d6+12 Sneak Attack with a single rogue splash. - 12 sneak attack versus 2 damage per swing - 6 aps versus 16aps not sure this is too powerful dude
Better Improved Recovery with a single monk splash. - see overhealing discussion
Energy of the Dragonblooded IV with a single spalsh of sorcerer. - versus dwarves getting spell points for just being a cleric right?
+5 AC with a single paladin splash. - meh, i'd scrap the aura enhancements from human x, not for the fact that they are too powerful, but because you don't want to put the final nail in the coffin of the pure pally.
Toughness with a single barbarian/fighter/paladin splash!!! - um, dwarves get toughness already

Sorry, but any of these is more powerful than any bonus dwarves can get... and you can get many of them at the same time!:eek:

see inline

Shattergod
08-22-2008, 03:46 PM
Two things:
My dwarf has a mustache, not a beard. :eek::D;)
I don't ever recall action point cost preventing people from splashing 6 levels of ranger for tempest... or from taking ac/saves aura enhancements... or from making an archer with 14 LEVELS of barbarian just for crit rage... or how doing any of these "gimp the loving ****" out of such characters (well, except for the ranged barbarian one, since a full ranger ends up doing more damage due to FE's).

My point is, yes, you're correct, you won't likely be taking all the high-level enhancements from every class, because you simply don't have the action points. But you can pick and choose the best of the best--a single ranger splash for tempest (which actually doesn't cost all that much AP-wise), a single paladin splash for 5 ac and 4 saves and paladin toughness....

Humans would immediately become the master race, but it would be even worse than how dwarves are now--instead of just having more hitpoints, humans would actually be able to do things that simply could not be done by other races--paladins with tempest and barbarian crit rage, monks with tons of sneak attack damage and even more ridiculous ac than ever before... the list goes on. I don't care how you slice the cake, that simply isn't a good idea.



Let's get back onto my suggestion, hmmm?

jkm
08-22-2008, 03:48 PM
Two things:
My dwarf has a mustache, not a beard. :eek::D;)
I don't ever recall action point cost preventing people from splashing 6 levels of ranger for tempest... or from taking ac/saves aura enhancements... or from making an archer with 14 LEVELS of barbarian just for crit rage... or how doing any of these "gimp the loving ****" out of such characters (well, except for the ranged barbarian one, since a full ranger ends up doing more damage due to FE's).

My point is, yes, you're correct, you won't likely be taking all the high-level enhancements from every class, because you simply don't have the action points. But you can pick and choose the best of the best--a single ranger splash for tempest (which actually doesn't cost all that much AP-wise), a single paladin splash for 5 ac and 4 saves and paladin toughness....

Humans would immediately become the master race, but it would be even worse than how dwarves are now--instead of just having more hitpoints, humans would actually be able to do things that simply could not be done by other races--paladins with tempest and barbarian crit rage, monks with tons of sneak attack damage and even more ridiculous ac than ever before... the list goes on. I don't care how you slice the cake, that simply isn't a good idea.

paladins with tempest and barbarian crit rage - last time i checked you can't multiclass a pally/barb.

monks with tons of sneak attack damage and even more ridiculous ac than ever before - point out to me how a human monk/rogue would have more sneak attack damage than a halfling monk/rogue?

this idea is more inline with how humans should have been done than any other method. geez, look at borror arguing til he's blue in the face that a +1 increase in damage per swing for a human over a dwarf totally negates the laundry list of overpowered dwarven enhancements.

besides, if i were implementing this, i'd do a couple of things

1. it would be class {level} or class 1 and human {2 x level}
----this change would negate all of the overpowered enhancements from ever coming into play
2. not allow attribute enhancers to apply because you are human
3. not allow human to qualify you for specialties

Borror0
08-22-2008, 03:51 PM
well 1 level gets you barb pa 1 and i'm not sure barb pa 2 and 3 is any more powerful than the 4-5 other fighter enhancements that dwarves get

They stack, and that's the problem. It's not one bonus, but addition of them all.


just make the attribute increases not apply to human x

But a a 14 barb/2 fighter can get Figher Strength II. How do you


dwarves get a favored enemy enhancement line already - goblinoid. a single level of ranger would make a human get 1, i repeat, 1 favored enemy

Right, because Goblinoid are so overpowerd! I mean, I would ratherb eing good versus goblinoids than being badass against Evil outsider or the Favored Enemy of my choice.:rolleyes:


12 sneak attack versus 2 damage per swing - 6 aps versus 16aps not sure this is too powerful dude

Ok, how about +3 damage for 2 APs or +2 for 6 APs?


see overhealing discussion

That is not the benefit of Improved Recovery. Like I say, it's about mass heals. And besides, in guild group there much less overhealing.


meh, i'd scrap the aura enhancements from human x, not for the fact that they are too powerful, but because you don't want to put the final nail in the coffin of the pure pally.

Being selective about it makes the whole thing silly.


um, dwarves get toughness already

And you have agreed it is overpowered.

Whether you want to admit it or not, this would make the humans the new power race.

Borror0
08-22-2008, 03:57 PM
point out to me how a human monk/rogue would have more sneak attack damage than a halfling monk/rogue?

Easy!

Halfling Guile IV - +8 Damage
Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV - 12 damage

Since a level 1 rogue can have Rogue Sneak Attack Training I, you got 9 damage. So, human wins.


geez, look at borror arguing til he's blue in the face that a +1 increase in damage per swing for a human over a dwarf totally negates the laundry list of overpowered dwarven enhancements.

Dude, that's how min/maxing works... DPS is what is most important in this game.


it would be class {level} or class 1 and human {2 x level}

I prefer simply putting the prereq of Class X or Human X-1. Makes more sense. More balanced.

jkm
08-22-2008, 04:00 PM
But a a 14 barb/2 fighter can get Figher Strength II. How do you

as i said, eliminate the attribute increases - a 14/2 gets access to str 1 and str 1 only

Right, because Goblinoid are so overpowerd! I mean, I would ratherb eing good versus goblinoids than being badass against Evil outsider or the Favored Enemy of my choice.:rolleyes:

dwarves don't even have to take a level of ranger to get that bonus - assuming this works i'd get an extra +3 to damage, saves, attack, and defense as the cost of 28 action points


Ok, how about +3 damage for 2 APs or +2 for 6 APs?

once again you get this for 1 level of rogue. its moot that a human would qualify you for it because you get it once you splash. we are talking about access to SA 2 which makes you take SA accuracy to open it up.

That is not the benefit of Improved Recovery. Like I say, it's about mass heals. And besides, in guild group there much less overhealing.

this is more of an opinion thing than anything

Being selective about it makes the whole thing silly - its not that, paladins are architected to be a splash class

And you have agreed it is overpowered.

Whether you want to admit it or not, this would make the humans the new power race.

in this implementation? yes. if you do human level * 2 no. they are just even more general than ever.

jkm
08-22-2008, 04:09 PM
Easy!

Halfling Guile IV - +8 Damage
Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV - 12 damage

Since a level 1 rogue can have Rogue Sneak Attack Training I, you got 9 damage. So, human wins.


Dude, that's how min/maxing works... DPS is what is most important in this game.



I prefer simply putting the prereq of Class X or Human X-1. Makes more sense. More balanced.

ah, my bad i thought halfling guile was like SA training for +3

1 point of dps does not erase the fact that dwarves can take every fighter enhancement line regardless of class and it stacks with said fighter enhancement line. fighter is their preferred class and i would be perfectly fine if the dwarven enhancements read

Dwarf X AND Fighter X but they don't.

this causes dwarves to get zero penalty for multiclassing on their enhancements. guess what? that is one of the biggest advantages humans have in pnp.

human - 1 is an intriguing idea because it allows a human to not have to take an extra level of that class to get the benefits. bring on the ranger 5 builds...

Missing_Minds
08-22-2008, 04:38 PM
Something to consider. Back when human verisitly was static, as I recall, it worked only on skills. Am I remembering incorrectly?

Borror0
08-22-2008, 04:39 PM
Something to consider. Back when human verisitly was static, as I recall, it worked only on skills. Am I remembering incorrectly?

Yep.

Borror0
08-22-2008, 04:52 PM
dwarves don't even have to take a level of ranger to get that bonus

You know any dwarves that picks that up? I don't. Goblinoids aren't a treat. Personally, I'd love to have +5 damage versus Evil Outsiders.


once again you get this for 1 level of rogue. its moot that a human would qualify you for it because you get it once you splash. we are talking about access to SA 2 which makes you take SA accuracy to open it u

:confused:


its not that, paladins are architected to be a splash class

I know and your suggestion makes it that we have to go case by case and find what we want in or out while my suggestion makes is much more balanced and has much less unpredicted consequences. Mine offers building options, yours will be static and may require nerfing in the future.


Dwarf X AND Fighter X but they don't.

I know, I'm working on something around those lines in my mind for a while. Something to give some fighterness to dwarves while downpowering the enhancements. The thing is that it must also give some wizardness to elves, rogueness to Halflings, fighterness to WFs... but without being overpowered. Not as easy as it sounds.

I'm thinking of making the enhancements cheaper, but not stack... it's in development.

Missing_Minds
08-22-2008, 07:03 PM
Yep.

Wow.. I thought it applied only to skills. Was that ever broken. If they split it up into the three different areas then, but as static, that I could go for, other wise, the bonus applied to all as static is over powered still.

Guildmaster_Kadish
08-22-2008, 07:20 PM
Wow.. I thought it applied only to skills. Was that ever broken. If they split it up into the three different areas then, but as static, that I could go for, other wise, the bonus applied to all as static is over powered still.

Borror0 was agreeing with your memory, not saying you remembered incorrectly. It used to give a +5 static bonus to skills. It was changed when the new enhancement system was implemented.

Naash
08-22-2008, 07:21 PM
Something to consider. Back when human verisitly was static, as I recall, it worked only on skills. Am I remembering incorrectly?

Yes,the main complaint against HV was the "Batman" build & to a lesser degree Human Rogues.
Possibly a little overpowered at the level at which the bonuses were given but Turbine could have spread them out over a greater level range instead of nerfing the whole mess into clickies.

So here we are at level 16 and level 20 on the horizon and here is what builds I see mostly;
700 hp Dwarven Barbs
TWF Dwarven Rangers
TWF Dwarven BattleRogues
Dwarven BattleBards
Dwarven Battleclerics
Dwarven Intimitanks
300+ hp Dwarven Casters

Looks a lot like Dwarven Versatility.
Tell me again how the original static +5 to skills is overpowering at endgame when its all about Hit Points,Armor Class and DPS?


BTW all I play are Humans(except one gimpy 1/2ling pally) and I hear the whispers ** Look Mildred its a hyoooman! **

jkm
08-22-2008, 07:33 PM
Yes,the main complaint against HV was the "Batman" build & to a lesser degree Human Rogues.
Possibly a little overpowered at the level at which the bonuses were given but Turbine could have spread them out over a greater level range instead of nerfing the whole mess into clickies.

So here we are at level 16 and level 20 on the horizon and here is what builds I see mostly;
700 hp Dwarven Barbs
TWF Dwarven Rangers
TWF Dwarven BattleRogues
Dwarven BattleBards
Dwarven Battleclerics
Dwarven Intimitanks
300+ hp Dwarven Casters

Looks a lot like Dwarven Versatility.
Tell me again how the original static +5 to skills is overpowering at endgame when its all about Hit Points,Armor Class and DPS?


BTW all I play are Humans(except one gimpy 1/2ling pally) and I hear the whispers ** Look Mildred its a hyoooman! **

well, there is new flavor of the month halfling rogue because of halfling guile - although i suspect the allure is going to rub off if the devs continue with their current trend of giving fortification to crittable mobs eliminating sneak attacks along with giving us more undead.

Uska
08-27-2008, 12:21 AM
Yes,the main complaint against HV was the "Batman" build & to a lesser degree Human Rogues.
Possibly a little overpowered at the level at which the bonuses were given but Turbine could have spread them out over a greater level range instead of nerfing the whole mess into clickies.

So here we are at level 16 and level 20 on the horizon and here is what builds I see mostly;
700 hp Dwarven Barbs
TWF Dwarven Rangers
TWF Dwarven BattleRogues
Dwarven BattleBards
Dwarven Battleclerics
Dwarven Intimitanks
300+ hp Dwarven Casters

Looks a lot like Dwarven Versatility.
Tell me again how the original static +5 to skills is overpowering at endgame when its all about Hit Points,Armor Class and DPS?


BTW all I play are Humans(except one gimpy 1/2ling pally) and I hear the whispers ** Look Mildred its a hyoooman! **

Hmmm most groups in dont have mainly dwarfs in them only 1 or 2 my groups are usually a mixed I bag of humans drow and halflings

EightyFour
08-27-2008, 01:33 AM
This is for the OP, which I've only read the first few posts and none other. I don't see that point of making it a stance as what is the point of turning it off? I say they should change it back to the +4 without any timer, but I don't really care about it that much anymore, it's been changed and it messed up a lot of builds, but I can still use it when I need to, it only annoys me now if I have no charges left when I need it, or when I forget to activate it, or the fact that I have to decide when it gets used or when I don't need to. But other than that it doesn't bother me that much anymore.

Shattergod
08-27-2008, 03:01 AM
This is for the OP, which I've only read the first few posts and none other. I don't see that point of making it a stance as what is the point of turning it off? I say they should change it back to the +4 without any timer, but I don't really care about it that much anymore, it's been changed and it messed up a lot of builds, but I can still use it when I need to, it only annoys me now if I have no charges left when I need it, or when I forget to activate it, or the fact that I have to decide when it gets used or when I don't need to. But other than that it doesn't bother me that much anymore.


The goal is versatility... not simply a massive skill buff. Making it a toggle means you can swap it between diffrent bonuses... such as damage, or attack, or ac, or whatever...

Kaldais
08-27-2008, 08:55 AM
HV I: gives +1 to all skills
HV 2: gives +1 to all saves
HV 3: gives +1 to all damage
HV 4: gives +1 to hit.

There everyone is happy. With 10 AP you get +1 to skill, +1 to save, +1 to damage +1 to hit. 2.75 feats which is about what the Dwarven toughness gives you.

Kaboth
08-27-2008, 09:53 AM
Borror0 was agreeing with your memory, not saying you remembered incorrectly. It used to give a +5 static bonus to skills. It was changed when the new enhancement system was implemented.

Now maybe its been too long since they changed it, but yes it was a static bonus to ALL skills, which at that time compared to other races, it was overpowered. However, it was not too overpowered because it was not like the servers were rampant with nothing but humans. But I seem to recall it being a +3 bonus (max) and not +5, because basically everyone compared it to having a free skill focus for every skill you have.




BTW all I play are Humans(except one gimpy 1/2ling pally) and I hear the whispers ** Look Mildred its a hyoooman! **

Me too, I do have a WF Barb, Drow Paladin, and a Elven Archer (13 Fighter/ 2 Ranger) though...1 place holder, 1 bank toon and my other 5 chars are all Human. I dont even own a dwarf (or Halfing) on my list. I have a Human Sorc, Bard, Rogue MC, Cleric, and Monk.

jkm
08-27-2008, 10:48 AM
just so we are all on the same page about HV and why it was so powerful pre mod 3.x

we had 4 enhancement slots - you had to pick the enhancement you wanted to use and slap them in one of those 4 slots. HV was powerful because it justified use in one of those slots whereas dwarves had a laundry list of semi-powerful enhancements but none that really justified taking them over a class enhancement. so as you can see, human versatility and halfling luck (+3 to all saves) were really powerful because they gave you a ton of added benefit in the 4 enhancement system.

when they introduced the new enhancement system, where you could buy multiple items, races that before had a ton of enhancements that couldn't justify a slot except for certain build became the new power. oh, and they nerfed 3 things - human versatility, drow spell resistance, and halfling luck. well, technically they didn't nerf halfling luck, they split it out so that it cost just as much to acquire it in the new system as it did in the old system.

when you look at the dwarven enhancements:
dw armor mastery 1-3 (effectively 3 dodge feats if you have the dex)
dw armor agility 1-3 (effectively 6 skill focus feats in heavy armor)
dw axe damage 1-2 (effectively weapon specialization)
dw axe attack 1-2 (effectively weapon focus and greater weapon focus)
dwarven faith 1-4 (effectively mental toughness)
dwarven goblinoid hatred (effectively you have favored enemy enhancements)
dwarven poison resistance (1-3) (effectively snake blood)
dwarven shield mastery (1-3) (effectively shield mastery)
dwarven spell defense (1-3) (effectively iron will, lightning reflexes, and whatever the fort one is AND luck of heroes)
dwarven toughness (1-4)(3 toughness feats)
dwarven tactics (1-3) (what is this? 9 ability focus feats?)
giant dodger (1-3) (situationally 3 dodge feats)

this is situationally 30ish feats. why was HV too powerful or would be too powerful in its current format? the cost of human versatility was extremely low compared to the value it provided.

the problem is that every race other than humans gets to bring the enhancements of their favored class to any class they choose. humans get improved recovery 1-3 (2/4/6) and human versatility which is only really handy on 2 rogue human multiclass builds. yes there are situational times you'll turn on the other +5 clickies but for the most part they do more harm than good.

up until this last mod, halfling were the only race that had as much to complain about as humans. they were given a boost with halfling guile. this enhancement gave them 8 backstab damage for 20 action points. lets compare this with dwarf axe attack 1-2.

aps
dwarf axe attack 2 - 6
halfling guile 4 - 20

works on
dwarf axe attack - everything
halfling guile - critters that can be sneak attacked when you don't have aggro (no undead, no constructs, negated by fortification)

crittable damage?
dwarf axe attack - yes
halfling guile - no

the funny thing is that halflings rejoiced at the new addition. woot, 1/3 of my action points for 8 damage. a dwarf might have stretched to get the 2nd level, but its impossible to justify anything over that.

Borror0
08-27-2008, 10:52 AM
But I seem to recall it being a +3 bonus (max) and not +5, because basically everyone compared it to having a free skill focus for every skill you have.

The bonus ws +5. The Skill Focus argument was the one used against those suggesting lowering it down to +3.

Borror0
08-27-2008, 10:56 AM
dw armor mastery 1-3 (effectively 3 dodge feats if you have the dex)
Bolded the important part.

dwarven faith 1-4 (effectively mental toughness)
Less powerful than MT.

dw axe damage 1-2 (effectively weapon specialization)
Yes, but it's not usuable with khopeshes. So, really...

dw armor agility 1-3 (effectively 6 skill focus feats in heavy armor)
dwarven goblinoid hatred (effectively you have favored enemy enhancements)
dwarven poison resistance (1-3) (effectively snake blood)
giant dodger (1-3) (situationally 3 dodge feats)
Don't make me laugh.

jkm
08-27-2008, 12:07 PM
Bolded the important part.

uh, who is supposed to be more versatile? a dwarf or a human? this makes the dwarf the most versatile character in armor. a dex dwarf fighter COULD get 22 ac out of the KDS, a dwarven ranger can get 19, compared to 16 from an elf.



Less powerful than MT.

MT gives 75 spell points, this gives 60 - oh and dwarven clerics/paladins are the only ones that get this bonus. don't remember pally being a favored class of dwarves.



Yes, but it's not usuable with khopeshes. So, really...


omg, its useable on a 3d6 dwarven axe that pretty much wiped out any difference that a khopesh might have created.



Don't make me laugh.

ah, but when they were making the argument that it was 27 skill focus feats no one accepted the argument that 21 of them were worthless. seriously, who takes anything other than skill focus haggle and skill focus umd? those were the only feats under consideration making this enhancement too powerful.

jkm
08-27-2008, 12:12 PM
and one more point i'd like to make about the halfling enhancements...

they tied it to a much much less effective enhancement to dilute its power. currently, dwarves get no such liabilities. if each level of dwarven toughness required you to grab dwarven poison resistance and giant dodger it becomes a marginally effective enhancement and weighs down its power.

WeiQuinn
08-27-2008, 02:06 PM
Kill the humans!!

Are you quoting the great Bender or just some WF?

Borror0
08-27-2008, 02:21 PM
uh, who is supposed to be more versatile? a dwarf or a human? this makes the dwarf the most versatile character in armor.

That's hell of a fallacious argument. You know that a human can get a +5 AC boost even in robe. He is more versatile, he is not limited by armor.:rolleyes:


omg, its useable on a 3d6 dwarven axe that pretty much wiped out any difference that a khopesh might have created.

First, 2d6. Secondly, khopeshes are still the best of the two and don't require 6 APs to reduce the gap.


ah, but when they were making the argument that it was 27 skill focus feats no one accepted the argument that 21 of them were worthless. seriously, who takes anything other than skill focus haggle and skill focus umd? those were the only feats under consideration making this enhancement too powerful.

That's not true. The skill bonus was hreatly useful for Spot, Search and Disable Device too, at the least. The Batman build also gained a lot from his higher Intimidate score.

jkm
08-27-2008, 03:03 PM
That's hell of a fallacious argument. You know that a human can get a +5 AC boost even in robe. He is more versatile, he is not limited by armor.:rolleyes:

how in the heck is it fallacious? your tossing up an 17.5 second boost in armor vs the possibility of pushing armor defense up by 6 continuously on? and yes, its 17.5 seconds as it doesn't count the first 1.5 seconds of activation and any attack made in the last second is treated as if it the bonus were off due to server lag.




First, 2d6. Secondly, khopeshes are still the best of the two and don't require 6 APs to reduce the gap.

omg, speaking of fallacious arguments. humans do not get khopesh for free, they have to use a feat. and newsflash!!!! a dwarf can get the khopesh feat too. and don't even begin to throw the free racial feat argument up as that is balanced against all the other pnp racial feats.




That's not true. The skill bonus was hreatly useful for Spot, Search and Disable Device too, at the least. The Batman build also gained a lot from his higher Intimidate score.

spot? who takes skill focus spot? my rogue doesn't even have it maxed

skill focus: search? this was an issue in gianthold after the great search nerf but hasn't been an issue since (heck, the cabal trap has been lowered a crazy amount now too). as long as you have max search ranks and equipment you will find 99% of the traps in the game.

skill focus: disable? once again, we are talking 2 traps with a crazy disable (foundation and cabal). otherwise with max ranks and item, you are going to disable every other trap in the game on a 1.

so that brings us to intimidate, haggle, and umd - in effect a +5 always on bonus to these skills is considered gamebreaking over all of the laundry list of dwarven enhancements.

guess what, i agree. at the action point costs given. however, if they split them up like halfling luck i'd say that they weren't overpowered.

Borror0
08-27-2008, 04:11 PM
how in the heck is it fallacious?

"Being versatile in armor" is a made up, weak and irrevelent arguement.


a dwarf can get the khopesh feat too.

But his axe enhancements don't really help him then, do they?


[Comment on skills]

People used to, back pre-Mod 3.3 Of course, the game has change. But still, +5 to all your skills is still really powerful.


guess what, i agree. at the action point costs given. however, if they split them up like halfling luck i'd say that they weren't overpowered.

I might agree to that. Splited, it could be acceptable.

Naash
08-27-2008, 05:27 PM
First, 2d6. Secondly, khopeshes are still the best of the two and don't require 6 APs to reduce the gap..

In a feat starved class the axe enhancements aren't exactly ****.



That's not true. The skill bonus was hreatly useful for Spot, Search and Disable Device too, at the least. The Batman build also gained a lot from his higher Intimidate score.

Ya know I dont believe I had ever seen a "Batman" use intimidate back then.

Borror0
08-27-2008, 05:31 PM
In a feat starved class the axe enhancements aren't exactly ****.

Oh, agreed. But you know, by going human you'd do more DPS as you could afford Khopesh.


Ya know I dont believe I had ever seen a "Batman" use intimidate back then.

Then they were fake Batman.

Naash
08-27-2008, 05:52 PM
"Being versatile in armor" is a made up, weak and irrevelent arguement.

....tiptoed right past his static AC vs Temp AC point eh?




But his axe enhancements don't really help him then, do they?

So then he has more AP's to spend on all the other great Dwarven enhancements right?




People used to, back pre-Mod 3.3 Of course, the game has change. But still, +5 to all your skills is still really powerful.


At the level they were given,yes.
Now? I'm not so sure,regardless I still dont like the way HV was nerfed into "clickies" and I cant be the only one as Turbine has tweaked it a few times to make it more attractive.It was a knee-jerk overreaction on Turbines part.
I think a better way to handle it would have been to spread the bonuses out over a greater level range,ie +1 @ lvl 4,+2 @ lvl 8,+3 @ lvl 12,+4 @ level 16 and +5 at 20.
That would have hurt the "Batmen" just as bad and there would have been no "Human Boost" nonsense.

Naash
08-27-2008, 06:24 PM
Oh, agreed. But you know, by going human you'd do more DPS as you could afford Khopesh.

Partially true,we do have a substantial amount of mobs in the game that are not subject to crits(elemental effects aside).
I burned a feat on my 1/2ling Pally to take Khopesh to try and mask some of his low Str. issues so I know of what you speak.

Dwarves are the only race that can boost not only a racially favored weapon but an entire weapon type.
And the bonus applies to the off-hand weapon on a TWF build(granted,a handaxe is not the bomb but it adds up).



Then they were fake Batman.

Why would you waste backstab damage hiding behind a shield? :P
They were too busy finding/disabling/unlocking/fighting & sometimes rezzing party members.

jkm
08-27-2008, 06:26 PM
"Being versatile in armor" is a made up, weak and irrevelent arguement.

irrelevant? dwarves get the ability to have a constant +3 in armor and humans get 5 17.5 clickies with a 30 second cooldown. oh, but they stack!!! i can count on one hand the number of times that i have used the human AC boost and i've had 9 capped humans. clickies suck. suck so bad that i'm almost to the point to where i'd rather have dodge than combat expertise.



But his axe enhancements don't really help him then, do they?

lets analyze your argument...

dwarves get a free fighter feat with axe attack 2
but humans get khopeshes
humans don't "get" khopesh, its an optional feat they can take that is also available to dwarves
but the axe enhancements don't work on it

so? do humans get khopesh damage 1 and 2 that adds damage to a khopesh for longer than 17.5 seconds? (that has been proven to lower overall dps because you lose so many swings)




People used to, back pre-Mod 3.3 Of course, the game has change. But still, +5 to all your skills is still really powerful.

lets look at this closely for a second...

at level 10

general skill

max skill rank 13
max ability bonus 11
max stat item - 11 (3 for umd)
buffs - 7

max skill score - 42
max umd score - 34 so +5 allowed you to hit a heal scroll without fail on buffage

at level 12

general skill

max skill rank 15
max ability bonus 12
max stat item - 13 (5 for umd)
buffs - 7

max skill score - 47
max umd score - 39 so +5 allowed you to hit a heal scroll without fail with very few buffs

at level 14

general skill

max skill rank 17
max ability bonus 12
max stat item - 13 (5 for umd)
buffs - 7

max skill score - 49
max umd score - 39 so +5 allowed you to hit a heal scroll without fail no buffs

at level 16

general skill

max skill rank 19
max ability bonus 14
max stat item - 21 (11 for umd)
buffs - 7

max skill score - 61
max umd score - 50

where does +5 get you? the bonus that the enhancement gave in mod 3 vs what it would give now is just orders of magnitude lower. as a matter of a fact, the only builds i can see taking it are intimitanks so that they can get the hound, and batmans so that they can dilute charisma to put in other stats - kind of like dwarves do with con because of the toughness crutch.

Alavatar
08-27-2008, 06:29 PM
First, 2d6. Secondly, khopeshes are still the best of the two and don't require 6 APs to reduce the gap.

Me thinks your 2d6 is in reference to the Dwarven Thrower? He stated Dwarven Axe, which leads me to believe he is talking about the Greensteel Dwarven Axe which is 2d8.

Naash
08-27-2008, 06:33 PM
.....and Turbine still hasnt explained why they gave the Khopesh a x3 crit.
But that is an argument for another thread/time.

jkm
08-27-2008, 06:37 PM
.....and Turbine still hasnt explained why they gave the Khopesh a x3 crit.
But that is an argument for another thread/time.

yes, in the "why don't bastard swords get glancing blow damage" thread...

JakLee7
08-27-2008, 06:57 PM
I like the idea of a clickie that is on til you click on the next one or turn it off for all the things we currently clicky now. I think that is a great idea. ignoring dwarves, wf, drow, ect just looking the idea that humans can be good at 1 thing at a time seems like a good idea.

Borror0
08-27-2008, 11:31 PM
That would have hurt the "Batmen" just as bad and there would have been no "Human Boost" nonsense.

It wouldn't have.


Dwarves are the only race that can boost not only a racially favored weapon but an entire weapon type.
And the bonus applies to the off-hand weapon on a TWF build(granted,a handaxe is not the bomb but it adds up).

You mean the way drows do NOT get rapier and shortsword?:rolleyes: I don't thinki most people care if their dwarves get get battle axe or throwing axe.


dwarves get a free fighter feat with axe attack 2
but humans get khopeshes
humans don't "get" khopesh, its an optional feat they can take that is also available to dwarves
but the axe enhancements don't work on it

so? do humans get khopesh damage 1 and 2 that adds damage to a khopesh for longer than 17.5 seconds? (that has been proven to lower overall dps because you lose so many swings)

My point is that the 'they get axe enhancements' is a weak one.
Khopesh is better than dwarven axes. And, rapier enhancements for the drows and elves are as powerful.


kind of like dwarves do with con because of the toughness crutch.

If you gimp your Con because you have Toughness, you're very stupid. That used to be valid pre-Module 4. Not anymore.

Besides, your 'It'd only benefit only intimitank' argument is so wrong I won't even refute it. You're clever enough to re-read it and figure out why.

jkm
08-28-2008, 12:50 AM
You mean the way drows do NOT get rapier and shortsword?:rolleyes: I don't thinki most people care if their dwarves get get battle axe or throwing axe.

uh, this is about HUMAN versatility. while elves are weaker than dwarves, they are light years ahead of humans.


My point is that the 'they get axe enhancements' is a weak one.
Khopesh is better than dwarven axes. And, rapier enhancements for the drows and elves are as powerful.

i don't know how you can sit there and say that dwarves get to add to hit and damage to a weapon all the time and humans get 5 17.5 second clickies that have to be spread over damage/to hit/skills/saves/ac is a weak argument. even taking the fastest zerg on rainbow in the dark, you run out of boosts before the end. that dwarf doesn't run out of swings.

and those rapier enhancements make it to where the majority of builds on these forums are drow and especially elf right? no. the fact that the dwarf gets +4 con and 50 more hit points from the beginning makes it the overwhelming choice. heck, even if you gave the elves +5 damage to rapiers it still wouldn't tilt the builds in their favor, because having 80% fewer hit points is a huge limiting factor for elves.

shroud elite - need melee, must have 450+ hit points to melee





If you gimp your Con because you have Toughness, you're very stupid. That used to be valid pre-Module 4. Not anymore.

how are you gimping your con if you spend 6 build points on it? you still start with a 16. that is 10 build points for a non-elf and 16 build points for them. you have 50 hit points as a cushion so you can afford to not spend more than 1 point on a stat. that puts dwarves at 66 hit points above any other race and the only way they can cut into that number is to sacrafice build points to chip away at it but never, ever come close to equaling it.


Besides, your 'It'd only benefit only intimitank' argument is so wrong I won't even refute it. You're clever enough to re-read it and figure out why.

the reason that they yanked the enhancement in the first place was because of people spamming cheap scrolls. the overreaction to this was to a) take HV away and b) take the scrolls away. the scrolls are basically gone since the drop rate in chests is abysmal (i'm down to 150 myself). yes some builds could use this enhancement, but there is no way this is as game breaking as some of the other enhancements out there.

now to end this, i don't want the +5 back or a static +3 to skills/damage/to hit/saves. i want something that more creatively takes into account the non-multiclassing penalty that humans enjoy.

DoctorWhofan
08-28-2008, 01:07 AM
Seriously. This is arguably one of the best ideas I have seen.

I've been going over the past threads... thinking about necroing them... and some people seem to stand out with some genuinely good ideas.

This guy is one of them.

I can think of many other things about this guy than his good ideas. Whether or not it is a good idea, the source is very questionable.

Borror0
08-28-2008, 01:22 AM
now to end this, i don't want the +5 back or a static +3 to skills/damage/to hit/saves. i want something that more creatively takes into account the non-multiclassing penalty that humans enjoy.

Then we agree on this.

Naash
08-28-2008, 06:16 AM
You mean the way drows do NOT get rapier and shortsword?:rolleyes: I don't thinki most people care if their dwarves get get battle axe or throwing axe.

My point is that the 'they get axe enhancements' is a weak one.
Khopesh is better than dwarven axes. And, rapier enhancements for the drows and elves are as powerful.


Dwarves get Dwarven Axe for free as it is a Dwarven invention and it stands to reason that as a race they would be proficient with their own weapon.The axe enhancements carry over to great axes,battle axes,handaxes & throwing axes as they are a similar weapon type.

By that argument Humans should get Bastard sword and Khopesh for free(both a human invention)and should get sword enhancements.
The benefit would also apply to scimitars,longswords,greatswords,falchions and kukris as they are a similar weapon type.

Because there are no two handed rapiers and daggers are not lumped in with their enhancements Drow/Elf do not share the variety of weapons the Dwarves enjoy(therefore not as powerful).

Borror0
08-28-2008, 09:33 AM
Drow/Elf do not share the variety of weapons the Dwarves enjoy(therefore not as powerful).

Ok, let's put it this way:

Handaxes are about the rarest martial weapon out there and non-light weapons are often used in the off-hand anyway.
Throwing Axes are used once in a decade. If you try to argue it's a powerful addition to this enhancement, I'll laugh of you.
Battle Axes are inferior weapons and thus less used.

That leaves Dwarven Axes and Greataxes, which allows a certain versitality.

You can argue that having a two-handed weapon and a one-handed weapon is powerful, but that is an opinion. Besides, most of the builds out there stick with either two-handed weapons or one-handed weapons. They don't switch between the two that often. (Although, that would have been a good argument around Module 2 & 3.)

I'll agree with one thing, human should have their own line. But what shall we give them? Not that easy to decide.

branmakmuffin
08-28-2008, 01:47 PM
Handaxes are about the rarest martial weapon out there and non-light weapons are often used in the off-hand anyway.
Handaxes are rare? What DDO do you play?

Throwing Axes are used once in a decade. If you try to argue it's a powerful addition to this enhancement, I'll laugh of you.
Start laughing.

Battle Axes are inferior weapons and thus less used.
If you mean "inferior to a Dwarven axe for Dwarven paladins, rangers, barbarians and fighters," sure. But as a blanker statement?

GrayOldDruid
08-28-2008, 01:55 PM
I do like this idea. Having values that are always on seems to me to make humans a more viable class. True the human rogues will hurt a small bit but over all it would really help the race alot.

Not really 'getting' why Human Rogues would hurt... Rogues have a Skill Boost clicky that can get to +5 for a few seconds... how would changing Human Versatility + to skills to an always on - not clicky hurt? Human Rogues could have +3 to skills all the time... PLUS a +5 for 20 seconds or so.
I don't think a "Stance" locks out a clicky.... or shouldn't.

Borror0
08-28-2008, 05:36 PM
Handaxes are rare? What DDO do you play?

Start laughing.

And there goes Mister "I'm Proud to not yet be capped!":rolleyes:

DoctorWhofan
08-28-2008, 05:45 PM
And there goes Mister "I'm Proud to not yet be capped!":rolleyes:

And so it begins.

Angelus_dead
08-28-2008, 05:54 PM
If you mean "inferior to a Dwarven axe for Dwarven paladins, rangers, barbarians and fighters," sure. But as a blanker statement?
No, battleaxes and dwarven axes are both inferior to the rapiers included by the elf and drow enhancements. The only arguably superior dwarf weapon is the greataxe, and of course it's size disallows use with TWF, which is the most powerful weapon configuration.

Naash
08-28-2008, 05:56 PM
Ok, let's put it this way:

Handaxes are about the rarest martial weapon out there and non-light weapons are often used in the off-hand anyway.
Throwing Axes are used once in a decade. If you try to argue it's a powerful addition to this enhancement, I'll laugh of you.
Battle Axes are inferior weapons and thus less used.

That leaves Dwarven Axes and Greataxes, which allows a certain versitality.

You can argue that having a two-handed weapon and a one-handed weapon is powerful, but that is an opinion. Besides, most of the builds out there stick with either two-handed weapons or one-handed weapons. They don't switch between the two that often. (Although, that would have been a good argument around Module 2 & 3.).

Handaxe: The oversize weapon feat has made them less attractive but still the enhancements make this a decent off hand weapon

Throwing Axe: Powerful? No. An addition? Yes. Dwarven Throwers? Still coveted and expensive.

Battleaxe: Compared to a Dwarven axe it is inferior.However,if you are a young Dwarf on the way up and you come across a Battleaxe that is a moderate upgrade to the Dwarven Axe you are using do you vendor it because it doesnt say "Made in Dwarvania" on it?

Greataxe: Getting enhancements on the best two handed weapon type in the game is a pretty good bonus.




I'll agree with one thing, human should have their own line. But what shall we give them? Not that easy to decide.

Human slash,bludgeon,pierce (to-hit/damage) and stacks with the greater proficiency/specialization feats.

Borror0
08-28-2008, 06:10 PM
The only arguably superior dwarf weapon is the greataxe, and of course it's size disallows use with TWF, which is the most powerful weapon configuration.
Not only to forget it is also inferior due to the fact it's a two-handed weapon.

Dwarven Throwers? Still coveted and expensive.
You're talking about a weapon I have never seen in my whole life. I hope you realise how rare that is.

Look, saying complaining about dwarves being good with Throwing Axes is silly.

Battleaxe: Compared to a Dwarven axe it is inferior.However,if you are a young Dwarf on the way up and you come across a Battleaxe that is a moderate upgrade to the Dwarven Axe you are using do you vendor it because it doesnt say "Made in Dwarvania" on it?
Useful? Yes. Powerful? Nah.

Greataxe: Getting enhancements on the best two handed weapon type in the game is a pretty good bonus.
If you forego that two-handed fighting is not the best way to do deal DPS.


Human slash,bludgeon,pierce (to-hit/damage) and stacks with the greater proficiency/specialization feats.
Flavorless.

branmakmuffin
08-28-2008, 11:14 PM
And there goes Mister "I'm Proud to not yet be capped!":rolleyes:
How does this address your erroneous assertion that hand axes are rare? So, what, you're saying they're rare near cap, so that somehow makes them rare? Look on the AH. You'll see a lot more hand axes than light hammers, both kinds of picks and morning stars, most of the time.

EightyFour
08-29-2008, 10:02 AM
The goal is versatility... not simply a massive skill buff. Making it a toggle means you can swap it between diffrent bonuses... such as damage, or attack, or ac, or whatever...

Ahhh...good point, I forgot all together that you can use it for that, I just use it for the skill boost.

Angelus_dead
08-29-2008, 02:29 PM
How does this address your erroneous assertion that hand axes are rare? So, what, you're saying they're rare near cap, so that somehow makes them rare? Look on the AH. You'll see a lot more hand axes than light hammers, both kinds of picks and morning stars, most of the time.
Neither the auction house nor broker is a real good way to test for the drop rate of weapons, although the broker comes closer (if you restrict your counting to weapons with unattractive magic effects).

The auction listings are severely biased by the fact that players post things to sell, and they're less likely to waste their time posting an inferior item such as a light hammer that nobody will want to buy (or even look at). Conversely, dwarf rangers are popular, and some of them don't have OTWF, meaning they've got a big incentive to bid for handaxes.

PS. As far as the actual drop rate, I have a good chart somewhere, but not quite at hand.

branmakmuffin
08-29-2008, 03:55 PM
Neither the auction house nor broker is a real good way to test for the drop rate of weapons, although the broker comes closer (if you restrict your counting to weapons with unattractive magic effects)

The auction listings are severely biased by the fact that players post things to sell, and they're less likely to waste their time posting an inferior item such as a light hammer that nobody will want to buy (or even look at). Conversely, dwarf rangers are popular, and some of them don't have OTWF, meaning they've got a big incentive to bid for handaxes.
Meaning that if there's a big incentive to bid for them, they'll sell more rapidly.


PS. As far as the actual drop rate, I have a good chart somewhere, but not quite at hand.
I'm sure its accuracy is peerless.

Don't tell me that (for the appropriate level character) a +3 acid hand axe of pure good is "gold" and a +3 acid light hammer of pure good is "crappe." But that's your implication.

Naash
08-29-2008, 04:39 PM
Borror0,
poor choice of words on my part when I said the Drow/Elf sword enhancements were less powerful than the Dwarven axe enhancements because that implied the Dwarven ones were powerful.
I should have said "less flexible" or something on those lines.



Flavorless.

I didnt think much on it just kinda threw it out.
Are there any online resources aside from the D20srd that have some optional racial rules I can get some ideas from?

Naash
08-29-2008, 04:40 PM
PS. As far as the actual drop rate, I have a good chart somewhere, but not quite at hand.

Really would like to see that.

EightyFour
08-29-2008, 06:11 PM
For any Dev that reads this, as an added bonus to this it may lead to the technology to make manyshot into what it should be also. So that's an added bonus to this idea.

Shattergod
08-29-2008, 06:55 PM
For any Dev that reads this, as an added bonus to this it may lead to the technology to make manyshot into what it should be also. So that's an added bonus to this idea.

They already have the technology... look at monks.

EightyFour
08-30-2008, 07:47 PM
They already have the technology... look at monks.

Sorry was just going off of what Codog said about hoping monks would bring the tech. for this but it didn't.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1789270#post1789270

Shattergod
08-30-2008, 11:57 PM
Sorry was just going off of what Codog said about hoping monks would bring the tech. for this but it didn't.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1789270#post1789270

The tech differs... though they could do a slop job and still do it...

EightyFour
09-01-2008, 12:24 AM
The tech differs... though they could do a slop job and still do it...

I like how you have no idea what your talking about but still continue to march on as if nothing is wrong, nice job.