PDA

View Full Version : Henchmen?



Pages : [1] 2 3

Uproar
08-15-2008, 08:28 AM
My reaction: You can't be serious? This is what is coming next?

My question: Why do people want henchmen? I assume this is going to be implemented like GuildWars. Henchmen even if gimped slightly are still likely to destroy grouping in this game. I see no reason for it. There is no shortage of classes currently (on my server at least). Why do we need henchmen? Maybe at some lower population point in the past people saw a need, but since January I have never waited more then 20 minutes for a group to fill with the necessary members to run it and usually the wait is far, far less.

My vote (counted or not): I vote to dump henchmen.

NullWolf
08-15-2008, 09:12 AM
0_o Where'd you hear about henchmen? Do you have a link for the rest of us?
Henchmen in DnD have traditionally been lower level than the Character, so it wouldn't even make sense...
Also if they were to use the same AI they use for pets etc... well... I'll take a group over that any day LOL...

And if they ARE doing henchmen, they might as well give us Familiars etc along with it...

EDIT: -- OK... checking out DDOCast ;)

MrCow
08-15-2008, 09:18 AM
I'm reserving judgment on henchmen until I have a better idea on how they plan to implement them.

Babidi
08-15-2008, 09:18 AM
Henchmen is for people that don't have time to find groups in those less popular quests, I think its great news and dont know why u are bashing it. It is nice for new players to lvl up on low lvl quests too.

Bab

MysticTheurge
08-15-2008, 09:22 AM
I assume this is going to be implemented like GuildWars.

D&D henchmen come from a feat and don't replace a party member.

I think MrCow has the right idea.

Uproar
08-15-2008, 09:24 AM
I'm bashing it because I quit Wow, EQII, and AOC, because I hate that soloing was the optimium method of advancement. I quit GW for the same reason (that and I finished it and wasn't interested in PVP).

Henchmen are not necessary. New players need to recognize the high caliber, high availability of PUGs that DDO offers. That is what sets this game apart more then any other feature (even if many of its player's don't recognize that fact -- many do -- and I am convinced of it). Abundent, high-quality PUGs with Audio-chat is what makes this game fun.

Not that there aren't other necessary elements, such as character building, quest style, etc, but those will die without the grouping. Henchmen don't sound as though they promote inclusion of all groups and builds that we currently enjoy.

Why ever make a character with rogue skills if I can hire one? Why make a cleric? Sure some will, many of these classes will lose active players.


--------
Just saw post above about feat
--------

It's possible it's not what I envision. I hope that is the case. If it replaces the need for ANY party members I call for its removal. If it's merely a DPS boost, Bah. Again why do we need it? That's what Adamantine puppies are for and Ranger/Caster pets.

Rav'n
08-15-2008, 09:26 AM
So if it's a Feat.... do they hide out in my backpack when I'm not using them?



Can I get Cespenar plz? My backpack needs some SERIOUS cleaning. And I know for a fact I have more than one sock in there...

NullWolf
08-15-2008, 09:27 AM
Henchmen is for people that don't have time to find groups in those less popular quests

Good point Babidi...

Also, will wait to actually judge this till we see it. But if its someone you hire to help you out, I hope the AIs been tweaked...
(I still stand by that if they can do half-decent henchmen, they can give us familiars and pets etc... :))

Can't wait for more detail on how these henchmen will work etc...

Does this mean they're adding the Leadership feat? :D I want a cohort, not a hench... :D


Why ever make a character with rogue skills if I can hire one? Why make a cleric? Sure some will, many of these classes will lose active players.

I imagine, that the henchmen won't have the maxed out skills your average trap monkey would, and who know what kind of spells a hench Cleric is carrying...

We won't really know until more info is released though...

Rav'n
08-15-2008, 09:30 AM
:D I want a cohort, not a hench... :D

For a second there I thought you wanted a Consort.....

NullWolf
08-15-2008, 09:32 AM
For a second there I thought you wanted a Consort.....

Well... that'd be an interesting addition to the game now wouldn't it... :-p

Turial
08-15-2008, 09:37 AM
My reaction: You can't be serious? This is what is coming next?

...

My hope is that animal companions are a soon to be added feature.

Babidi
08-15-2008, 09:50 AM
I'm bashing it because I quit Wow, EQII, and AOC, because I hate that soloing was the optimium method of advancement. I quit GW for the same reason (that and I finished it and wasn't interested in PVP).

Henchmen are not necessary. New players need to recognize the high caliber, high availability of PUGs that DDO offers. That is what sets this game apart more then any other feature (even if many of its player's don't recognize that fact -- many do -- and I am convinced of it). Abundent, high-quality PUGs with Audio-chat is what makes this game fun.

Not that there aren't other necessary elements, such as character building, quest style, etc, but those will die without the grouping. Henchmen don't sound as though they promote inclusion of all groups and builds that we currently enjoy.

Why ever make a character with rogue skills if I can hire one? Why make a cleric? Sure some will, many of these classes will lose active players.


--------
Just saw post above about feat
--------

It's possible it's not what I envision. I hope that is the case. If it replaces the need for ANY party members I call for its removal. If it's merely a DPS boost, Bah. Again why do we need it? That's what Adamantine puppies are for and Ranger/Caster pets.

I agree with everything you said, its just that thats a point of view that don't take the big picture in consideration. We need to remember that DDO is a great game that is not appealing for the big masses and one of the reasons is the problem getting groups up. If this make it easier getting a group, why not? If you like pugs, put up your LFM and you will still see people joining, one thing will not exclude the other, if not help cause we may get a much larger player base.

As I see, there are times when you want to play DDO and cannot make a group, not many people joining, desert servers, lack of a specific class available...this kills the game for the newcomers.

BR,

Bab

totmacher
08-15-2008, 09:54 AM
I think henchmen address the solo concern and filling out a pug concern, esp since it'll deal with the healing problems in the game too. Dunno, it seems like a good idea but it depends how they implement it. If you buy a stone of summon level 12 cleric, that'd be fine, it just depends how you could program him.

I'm kind of positive about it actually.

GrayOldDruid
08-15-2008, 10:02 AM
Henchmen would make Soloing a lot easier.... IF done right. IF you can tell your henchman to "Go pull that lever" and such. I would SOOO be running Delera's solo (with henchmen).

IF, however, they use the current "pet" AI, then... well, just one more potentially cool thing turned to useless ****.

You could sure do a lot more three and four man groups. With a full group, oh the fun that could be had.

Of course, hopefully like in D&D, you do have to care for your henchmen and you level them up and provide gear and such.

:D I'd have henchmen with Weakening weapons, Maldroit weapons, crippling, slowburst... :D

MysticTheurge
08-15-2008, 10:04 AM
IF, however, they use the current "pet" AI, then... well, just one more potentially cool thing turned to useless ****.

That's actually my biggest hope when it comes to Henchman.

Hopefully, the addition of Henchman means the entire "pet" system is being improved to allow you to issue commands.

fiftyone
08-15-2008, 10:06 AM
Henchmen?

Imagine being followed around by a group of 5 Coyles.

Oh Yeah.

silverraven
08-15-2008, 10:09 AM
My hope is that animal companions are a soon to be added feature.

Isn't that the same as summon monster? Or the mithral-dog-type-animal?

ArkoHighStar
08-15-2008, 10:20 AM
Isn't that the same as summon monster? Or the mithral-dog-type-animal?

no those have a timer. Animal companions would be permanant, until they died and then need to be summoned again. The addition of henchman sounds like it is the beta for animal companions, and a revamping of pet AI.Eladrin stated a while ago that pets were a last minute addition and he agreed the AI was bad and as part of the druid addition this would need a complete makeover. What better way to tweak this out than with an optional henchman. Get them out into the wild watch thier behaviour and then make the necessary tweaks for when druids come out. This bodes well for all classes for things like familiars and ranger animal companions.

DeadlyGazebo
08-15-2008, 10:29 AM
Henchmen would make Soloing a lot easier.... IF done right. IF you can tell your henchman to "Go pull that lever" and such. I would SOOO be running Delera's solo (with henchmen).

You will have the ability to tell your hireling to pull a lever.



IF, however, they use the current "pet" AI, then... well, just one more potentially cool thing turned to useless ****.

Disposable heroes will have a new AI. Hopefully smarter than the current Coyle.

We will be releasing more info on minions later... And I'll be watching the forums to answer some of your questions...

MysticTheurge
08-15-2008, 10:29 AM
Hopefully, the addition of Henchman means the entire "pet" system is being improved to allow you to issue commands.

From the MMORPG.com article (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm?GAME=163&FEATURE=2128&bhcp=1):


This is basically a henchman system, which allows you to hire an NPC to join your party. These will be the same level as you and are commandable. They will fight with you automatically, but if you want them to do something like open a door or such, you have to tell them to do it. They provide help and allow you to play the game when all of your friends aren't online.

totmacher
08-15-2008, 10:31 AM
I dub bad henchmen coyles

I dub good henchmen coyles

Verdant_Force
08-15-2008, 10:32 AM
I'm assuming the henchmen have classes?

/ponders a party of 6 tempest rangers with their own personal healers :eek:

ArkoHighStar
08-15-2008, 10:37 AM
From the MMORPG.com article (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm?GAME=163&FEATURE=2128&bhcp=1):

This could be fun

Level 1-3 "Hey Henchman can you open the door with the ogre behind it for me, yeah yeah don't worry he never hits anyone with that club"

Coldin
08-15-2008, 10:41 AM
I have a question.

Do the new henchmen have any problems around ladders/stairs/ledges? One of my biggest annoyances with pets is that you get to a ladder or a chasm, and you have to leave your pet behind.

Vyctor
08-15-2008, 10:42 AM
I think if there are costs to hiring the henchmen, which I would assume there would be, that the prices go up each time one of your henchmen dies.

DeadlyGazebo
08-15-2008, 10:44 AM
I have a question.

Do the new henchmen have any problems around ladders/stairs/ledges? One of my biggest annoyances with pets is that you get to a ladder or a chasm, and you have to leave your pet behind.

Your mercenaries will be able to climb ladders and jump. If they manage to get stuck anyway, you can make them teleport to you, so they should never get permanently left behind.

Rindalathar
08-15-2008, 10:45 AM
Although a lot will depend on implementation, but think how much more quickly quests like VoD or the Shroud will be able to fill if you can summon an appropriate level cleric.

Question: Will the addition of a henchman(men) in a raid group affect the raid loot drop? Will having 12 real players vs. simply having 12 slots filled have an equal chance of loot dropping? I would think that henchman would not have loot drop in chests. Can a dev. comment please?

Rav'n
08-15-2008, 10:45 AM
Thanks for the quick update DG! It's actually very 'heartening' that Turbine is monitering threads like this and just giving a blurb. Not sure I like the Henchman idea or not....I'll with hold judgement until I get my Consor...uh... Cohor... uh...Henchman. :D

GrayOldDruid
08-15-2008, 10:45 AM
You will have the ability to tell your hireling to pull a lever.

Your mercenaries will be able to climb ladders and jump. If they manage to get stuck anyway, you can make them teleport to you, so they should never get permanently left behind.

Your helpers will look a lot like normal characters; they'll have a subset of the same classes, spells, feats, etc available to you. Total party size is still limited to six with at most one henchman per player, however; they're meant to assist small parties, not to make full ones twice as big.

Wooohooo!!! Okay, You're AWESOME, DDO is AWESOME!!! ( can we tell pets to "attack that way" or "Sit" ? )


Disposable heroes will have a new AI. Hopefully smarter than the current Coyle.

We will be releasing more info on minions later... And I'll be watching the forums to answer some of your questions...

Disposable? :( Man... I was looking forward to equipping my henchmen. LOL.
(Had a PnP game where my three henchmen were more interesting than a couple of the player characters.)

I am excited about the prospects. Thank you!

silverraven
08-15-2008, 10:45 AM
It sounds pretty sweet...much like standalone Final Fantasy games back in the day it shows what is possible while giving a vanilla creation option which will decrease discomfort in new players with the rule set. In FF every new game had an improved rule set which required instruction...and they say Turbine doesn't care:eek:

Although the ship wreck is very AoCish, it still sounds great:D

silverraven
08-15-2008, 10:49 AM
Although a lot will depend on implementation, but think how much more quickly quests like VoD or the Shroud will be able to fill if you can summon an appropriate level cleric.

Question: Will the addition of a henchman(men) in a raid group affect the raid loot drop? Will having 12 real players vs. simply having 12 slots filled have an equal chance of loot dropping? I would think that henchman would not have loot drop in chests. Can a dev. comment please?

I'm not sure going into a raid with 11 hirelings is very wise, nor I think "hiring" a cleric. :D Implementation will be a process though

Coldin
08-15-2008, 10:50 AM
Your mercenaries will be able to climb ladders and jump. If they manage to get stuck anyway, you can make them teleport to you, so they should never get permanently left behind.

Cool. Can we expect at least a similar teleport mechanic for summoned monsters too?

DeadlyGazebo
08-15-2008, 10:50 AM
I'm assuming the henchmen have classes?

/ponders a party of 6 tempest rangers with their own personal healers :eek:

Your helpers will look a lot like normal characters; they'll have a subset of the same classes, spells, feats, etc available to you. Total party size is still limited to six with at most one henchman per player, however; they're meant to assist small parties, not to make full ones twice as big.

Beherit_Baphomar
08-15-2008, 10:52 AM
*sigh*

Which one of you asked for hirelings?

DeadlyGazebo
08-15-2008, 10:53 AM
Cool. Can we expect at least a similar teleport mechanic for summoned monsters too?

Not for this module. If the new AI and control system works well, we may expand it out for summons later.

Impaqt
08-15-2008, 10:55 AM
Please dont turn the NPE into a NGE......

ALienating your existing Power gamer foundation for the chance to pick up new players has proven to be a bit of a disater.

GeneralDiomedes
08-15-2008, 10:57 AM
I wonder how much someone would pay me to group with them? Surely I could do better than a computer controlled hireling.

Perhaps I'll create a mercenary guild or something ..

totmacher
08-15-2008, 10:57 AM
will henchman have character levels or will they come in "flavors"

like healing man, fighter man, etc. and will you be able to tell them to do specific things? like heal my ability damage or

move ahead of me and stay there

or stuff like that

Verdant_Force
08-15-2008, 10:57 AM
Your helpers will look a lot like normal characters; they'll have a subset of the same classes, spells, feats, etc available to you. Total party size is still limited to six with at most one henchman per player, however; they're meant to assist small parties, not to make full ones twice as big.

What if all 6 party members have 1 henchman each? Then it would be twice as big...

Korvek
08-15-2008, 10:59 AM
Will Henchmen be able to be ressurected?

Laith
08-15-2008, 11:00 AM
What if all 6 party members have 1 henchman each? Then it would be twice as big...yeah, until that comment i was assuming that each henchman took a party slot... just confused now ;)

Impaqt
08-15-2008, 11:00 AM
What if all 6 party members have 1 henchman each? Then it would be twice as big...


Your helpers will look a lot like normal characters; they'll have a subset of the same classes, spells, feats, etc available to you. Total party size is still limited to six with at most one henchman per player, however; they're meant to assist small parties, not to make full ones twice as big.

Or not.....:rolleyes:

I see that statement as 3 Players.. 3 Henchmen.... max unless your ina Raid............. wher eyou could go 6 Players, 6 Henchmen.. Same Party Sizes..........

totmacher
08-15-2008, 11:01 AM
will there be any henchwomen?

or henchladies?

giggity giggity

GrayOldDruid
08-15-2008, 11:02 AM
Your helpers will look a lot like normal characters; they'll have a subset of the same classes, spells, feats, etc available to you. Total party size is still limited to six with at most one henchman per player, however; they're meant to assist small parties, not to make full ones twice as big.

So, even at higher levels I can't summon up even TWO henchmen if I am "soloing"? (Which means level and charisma score have nothing to do with the number of henchmen allowed... Geeze, Devs must HATE dealing with PnP players.) Still cool that a Three-Man team can have a full party.

Will the Henchmen "Level up" with the character or will they, like summoned monsters, get more and more useless as the character levels up? Can you "Customize" your henchman or will they just be "Flavors" like someone else asked?
(Seriously, by the time a Ranger can summon a Young Razor Cat, what is the point? A mild distraction?)

Will the Henchmen be the same ones with the character level for level or will you pick the class each time you "summon" one? Will they hang out with you in town or "Drop" once the quest is over? In chain quests will they follow you through the doors to the next part (like STK)?

Wow... I'm full of questions.

Verdant_Force
08-15-2008, 11:03 AM
Or not.....:rolleyes:

I see that statement as 3 Players.. 3 Henchmen.... max unless your ina Raid............. wher eyou could go 6 Players, 6 Henchmen.. Same Party Sizes..........

And how would this help new players adjust to the game? I see it as less people to interact with. This doesn't make much sense to me when the whole game is based on party interaction...

Zaodon
08-15-2008, 11:05 AM
1. Will there be Henchmen Clerics?
2. If so, will there be a "command" called "Be a healbot and for the love of all that is holy, don't agro anything" ?

kogyr2
08-15-2008, 11:07 AM
Is the goal to have this implemented this year? Or sometime earlier next year.

I play in a group of 3, this is a great option for us. Can't wait to hear more about it and when it would be available. We were thinking of quiting but this would definitely keep us around playing DDO longer.

DeadlyGazebo
08-15-2008, 11:07 AM
Will Henchmen be able to be ressurected?

Your supporters will drop soulstones like normal people and hang around as ghosts like normal people. They'll be able to use rez shrines, and you can hit them with spells that fix being dead.

EKKM
08-15-2008, 11:07 AM
What if all 6 party members have 1 henchman each? Then it would be twice as big...

I think he means that the total party size including henchmen (er henchpeople?) is 6. So max henchmen is 3 in a non raid group(ie 3 PCs woth 1 henchman each).

I hope the henchmen have a much lower power level than an equivialnt player just so it is always more optimal to bring a real person.

Uproar
08-15-2008, 11:07 AM
I am so impressed to hear a DEV speak (especially in a thread I started =) I'm gleaming with (baseless) pride that I hesitate to state my continued worry.


Your helpers will look a lot like normal characters; they'll have a subset of the same classes, spells, feats, etc available to you. Total party size is still limited to six with at most one henchman per player, however; they're meant to assist small parties, not to make full ones twice as big.

That is exactly the mechanics that scares the hell out of me.

If your system is set up to somehow ensure that grouping from levels 1-16 continues unabated, i.e. I can find FULL groups of REAL people as quickly as I can now... great. I doubt you will achieve that via a worthwhile mechanics. I suspect it's going to either be a wasted effort, or if powerful enough to be useful, while I am not a doomsayer, I sincerely fear this has the potential to doom this game to oblivion. I hope it's being thought through VERY carefully.

P.S. I repeat, I've never waited more then 20 minutes for a group to fill, and I normally don't wait more then 10 minutes. I see no need for hirelings/henchmen/NPC PCs.

Anyways, thanks for listening and I hope my fears are proven silly.

GrayOldDruid
08-15-2008, 11:07 AM
And how would this help new players adjust to the game? I see it as less people to interact with. This doesn't make much sense to me when the whole game is based on party interaction...

Not everyone wants to run the same Favor Runs I need. Not everyone is up for Flagging when I really want to get flagged. Sometimes I run quests I'd rather not just because there is a party for it and nobody wants to run House K quests for favor only.... or go through Delera's with my 12th level fighter so he can get the Voice.

Eelpout
08-15-2008, 11:08 AM
And how would this help new players adjust to the game? I see it as less people to interact with. This doesn't make much sense to me when the whole game is based on party interaction...

Well....... Your henchman won't tell you you suck. That you are noob. They won't tell you you have no business taking your own loot. They won't drop group in the middle of a quest because you don't want to use cheese to complete a quest.

See, still plenty of reasons to still pug!!:D

Laith
08-15-2008, 11:08 AM
how useful can they be on traps, compared to an average rogue?
-trap focused rogues already have problems grouping, and (as a nickname suggests) a monkey could fill their role.

limited-SP and concentration checks?
-assuming that both of these apply... of course AI generally goes buck wild with spells. is there a way to restrain them from blowing their wad early such as "aggressive" or "defensive" casting modes?

Eladrin
08-15-2008, 11:08 AM
will henchman have character levels or will they come in "flavors"
They will have character levels, feats, enhancements, equipment, and distinct personalities.


Will the Henchmen "Level up" with the character or will they, like summoned monsters, get more and more useless as the character levels up?
Various minions will be available at different levels. These are strictly mercenary hirelings that serve for a short period of time - as you level up, you will be able to acquire contracts of more experienced cohorts.

Currently we're thinking that we'll restrict them from raids - they tend to misbehave in them (stop chopping down Titan pillars!) and that content really should be the domain of twelve real players.


I would think that henchman would not have loot drop in chests.
They won't give it away, if they do. That's their loot.

Korvek
08-15-2008, 11:10 AM
Your supporters will drop soulstones like normal people and hang around as ghosts like normal people. They'll be able to use rez shrines, and you can hit them with spells that fix being dead.

Excellent.

GeneralDiomedes
08-15-2008, 11:12 AM
They will have character levels, feats, enhancements, equipment, and distinct personalities.

They won't give it away, if they do. That's their loot.

Now I'm starting to wonder how this is going to work. Will you be able to view the the equipment screen of your hireling and equip him as you see fit? Can they trade with other characters?

Aspenor
08-15-2008, 11:14 AM
Now I'm starting to wonder how this is going to work. Will you be able to view the the equipment screen of your hireling and equip him as you see fit? Can they trade with other characters?

I'm pretty sure that's just Eladrin Code for "they won't loot chests."

MysticTheurge
08-15-2008, 11:16 AM
That is exactly the mechanics that scares the hell out of me.

If your system is set up to somehow ensure that grouping from levels 1-16 continues unabated, i.e. I can find FULL groups of REAL people as quickly as I can now... great.

One henchman per real player means that you should still be able to find groups. You just won't necessarily need to find 5 other people that fit certain specific criteria.

Instead you'll need 2-5 people who can fit into a variety of roles, the remainder of which can be filled out with henchman.

It sounds to me like it might solve a lot of the grouping problems. Though it might, as Laith suggests, exacerbate some of the "We don't need a _____" problems. (Of course, those people can always start groups, hire henchman and then find two other people to bring henchman too.)

Aspenor
08-15-2008, 11:16 AM
THE MOST important question concerning Henchmen:

Will they be able to file griefing reports?

rimble
08-15-2008, 11:17 AM
Your mercenaries will be able to climb ladders and jump. If they manage to get stuck anyway, you can make them teleport to you, so they should never get permanently left behind.

mmMMmm, my own teleporting strike-force. Trap henchmen somewhere. Sneak/Zerg ahead. Summon strike force for obliteration.

Beherit_Baphomar
08-15-2008, 11:18 AM
They won't give it away, if they do. That's their loot.

HA!
Its their loot, stop telling my henchman what to do with his loot! Its his loot!!!
If he wants to sell it its his to sell!

Verdant_Force
08-15-2008, 11:19 AM
mmMMmm, my own teleporting strike-force. Trap henchmen somewhere. Sneak/Zerg ahead. Summon strike force for obliteration.

I'm totally making the A-team

/throws Mr. T at a screaming kobold

Petro
08-15-2008, 11:20 AM
I asked for henchmen. I need someone to carry all my loot. I'm almost level twenty, I'm too busy saving Stormreach from evil to worry about simple things like, counting coins, stocking potions/scrolls, looting corpses/chests. I want my henchmen to run my erands for me. Upon completion...."loot this dungeon", "gather the valuables and meet me in the market", "Vendor these, Deposit those, stop at the cleaners and grab my Armor, oh and don't forget to restock all the supplies". More time adventuring, less time running around. I don't need a henchmen to fight for me or cast spells.

llevenbaxx
08-15-2008, 11:20 AM
How much detail will they be allowed? Will they have customizable stats? Will they be able to equip various weapons, armors & shields?...or will there basically be a magically factory that churns out level6 warrior/rogue/etc.?

MysticTheurge
08-15-2008, 11:24 AM
How much detail will they be allowed? Will they have customizable stats? Will they be able to equip various weapons, armors & shields?...or will there basically be a magically factory that churns out level6 warrior/rogue/etc.?

It sounds like they're specific, pre-built characters that you can hire, but not customize.


They will have character levels, feats, enhancements, equipment, and distinct personalities.

Various minions will be available at different levels. These are strictly mercenary hirelings that serve for a short period of time - as you level up, you will be able to acquire contracts of more experienced cohorts.

Uproar
08-15-2008, 11:28 AM
It sounds like they're specific, pre-built characters that you can hire, but not customize.

As someone has already called it on the MMORPG.COM site, it's sounds an awful lot like DDO should run an advertisement that it is now entitled, "DDO, GuildWars 1.5."

Can we use them in PVP too? LOL. Seriously. I've already said, but I am not going to like this. Customizeable characters that level up and stay with you with maybe a permadeath type aspect (maybe more then a single simple death required). That might be cool. Tie it in with my personal housing estate and let them act as guards, et cetera, i.e. give them a RP value. Maybe that's cool. Allow groups to have 36 characters in them with dungeons that autoscale in difficulty and reward based on the group-size, o'kay maybe.

As paid-monkeys that take up my group slot? Forget about it.

Eelpout
08-15-2008, 11:30 AM
I think this is more of a help to people who are having trouble finding groups for certain quests. Plus I would imagine if you start a group with a henchman, you would be able to boot them in favor of a real player if someone wanted to join after the quest started.

I know this is not true for all players, but a real person should always be a more welcome addition to a party then an NPC with AI. COYLE!!!!!!!!

JetEskimo
08-15-2008, 11:31 AM
Will my Henchmen have Barksin/Haste? Will they charge me for casting it? If I'm running a caster, will they leave my party if I dont cast it?

These are important things the DDO community must know. :p

In all seriousness, it does sound quite interesting. Certainly a boon to people who like to solo or can't find groups in their level range at odd hours of the night. But, for those that want to group with real people during those hours... one has to wonder what will happen to them.

Turial
08-15-2008, 11:33 AM
THE MOST important question concerning Henchmen:

Will they be able to file griefing reports?

Beat me to it!

I can just see the clerical henchmen refusing to group with some players.

Plots the hopefull arrival of animal companions at some point...

Uproar
08-15-2008, 11:36 AM
Make them all Warforged Rangers. That should make everyone hate them! Mwhahahaha.

Arganosh
08-15-2008, 11:36 AM
As someone has already called it on the MMORPG.COM site, it's sounds an awful lot like DDO should run an advertisement that it is now entitled, "DDO, GuildWars 1.5."

Can we use them in PVP too? LOL. Seriously. I've already said, but I am not going to like this. Customizeable characters that level up and stay with you with maybe a permadeath type aspect (maybe more then a single simple death required). That might be cool. Tie it in with my personal housing estate and let them act as guards, et cetera, i.e. give them a RP value. Maybe that's cool. Allow groups to have 36 characters in them with dungeons that autoscale in difficulty and reward based on the group-size, o'kay maybe.

As paid-monkeys that take up my group slot? Forget about it.

While you might not like it a lot of others will. I know I will as I have a heck of a time finding groups. So this time if I can't get a group I can hire a Cleric or a Fighter or what the heck I need to do some Semi-solo grouping. Or are you suggesting that we do everything in the game according to your likes and Dislikes? If you don't want to use a henchman then don't. But It will be a boon for some of us who don't belong to a guild or don't have a regular group to play with.

As to someone calling something on MMORPG they always cry and complain and blast games there, it seems that their forums are more for complaining than talking. So feel free to listen to forum bashers there if you want too.

Coldin
08-15-2008, 11:39 AM
Not for this module. If the new AI and control system works well, we may expand it out for summons later.

Well, if it does work how you want it, please make it a top priority. :)

tfangel
08-15-2008, 11:39 AM
Henchmen is for people that don't have time to find groups in those less popular quests, I think its great news and dont know why u are bashing it. It is nice for new players to lvl up on low lvl quests too.

Bab

I'm all behind henchmem. There are odd quests that no one really seems to want to run, and this will help that for me. Also those times i can't find a group for the life of me, i can get some henchmen and do a quicky quest while waiting for a group. I know if they had been in from the start, i doubt i would have ever left, there are just times you don't have time or patience to deal with other people.

Granted, they may path like drunken turtles on crack, (like how that iron defender gets preoccupied by enemies that never pop up) so i'll wait and see before freaking out either way.

Uproar
08-15-2008, 11:43 AM
While you might not like it a lot of others will. I know I will as I have a heck of a time finding groups. So this time if I can't get a group I can hire a Cleric or a Fighter or what the heck I need to do some Semi-solo grouping. Or are you suggesting that we do everything in the game according to your likes and Dislikes? If you don't want to use a henchman then don't. But It will be a boon for some of us who don't belong to a guild or don't have a regular group to play with.

As to someone calling something on MMORPG they always cry and complain and blast games there, it seems that their forums are more for complaining than talking. So feel free to listen to forum bashers there if you want too.


I have never been in a guild in DDO yet (not that I wouldn't, but none that I respect has asked yet). I've played daily since early January of this year (and was in beta, but that's irrelevent mostly). I PUG 100%. I've heard some servers are having harder times then others. Maybe a server merge is in order?

In the meantime, come to Thelanis. We offer a group for every level and every class every evening from 5pm to 11pm as personally witnessed and thus guarenteed by me. In the odd moments there isn't one for you, start one-- it will fill up, if you are polite and can communicate.

totmacher
08-15-2008, 11:46 AM
wait, so will be able to equip them and then have them walk off with our stuff? will they leave us, if that's what you mean by having personalities? can we de-equip stuff from them or is there forever? what do you mean by personalities, you mean temperments, like aggressive (for a barbarian) or passive (for a cleric or bard) or stances like, they'll defend you if they condition happens, etc.

will they be static creatures or capable of evolution? will they be personalities in the sense like "mazzie" or "jaheira" from the baldur's gate series, where they are a static character with the same stats forever (barring equipment) or will they level up with you?

will they take up the room of a person in a 6 person party? so 5 + 1 henchmen is a full party?

Drider
08-15-2008, 11:48 AM
The main thing is, no matter how good the AI they give us. It still won't be as smart as a real human player.

Well.. I can think of some exceptions though. :D

Aspenor
08-15-2008, 11:48 AM
wait, so will be able to equip them and then have them walk off with our stuff? will they leave us, if that's what you mean by having personalities? can we de-equip stuff from them or is there forever? what do you mean by personalities, you mean temperments, like aggressive (for a barbarian) or passive (for a cleric or bard) or stances like, they'll defend you if they condition happens, etc.

will they be static creatures or capable of evolution? will they be personalities in the sense like "mazzie" or "jaheira" from the baldur's gate series, where they are a static character with the same stats forever (barring equipment) or will they level up with you?

will they take up the room of a person in a 6 person party? so 5 + 1 henchmen is a full party?

We will not be able to equip them.

They sound like mercenaries, won't leave unless you stop paying.

They have their loot and they aren't giving it up.

Static creatures.

Tot you are a noob read the thread :p

HumanJHawkins
08-15-2008, 11:49 AM
Your mercenaries will be able to climb ladders and jump. If they manage to get stuck anyway, you can make them teleport to you, so they should never get permanently left behind.

Even withouth the two sweet posts from Deadly, I had (and still have) this to say:

Sawheeeeeet! Woot Woot Woot! Y'all da BOMB, yo!

Pellegro
08-15-2008, 11:50 AM
sounds interesting. certainly a major step.

hopefully it will pave the way towards druids.

Blazer
08-15-2008, 11:51 AM
I wonder...if I get a henchman wizard or sorcerer, will he cast haste when I need it? Or will he proclaim that he is not a hastebot and refuse?

totmacher
08-15-2008, 11:55 AM
We will not be able to equip them.

They sound like mercenaries, won't leave unless you stop paying.

They have their loot and they aren't giving it up.

Static creatures.

Tot you are a noob read the thread :p



why when you can gather the information for me :)

llevenbaxx
08-15-2008, 11:56 AM
I wonder...if I get a henchman wizard or sorcerer, will he cast haste when I need it? Or will he proclaim that he is not a hastebot and refuse?

It will be pay by spell alah a real crack dealer, the first haste is free...;)

GeneralDiomedes
08-15-2008, 11:57 AM
We will not be able to equip them

Hopefully they all carry Transmuting weapons .. somehow I don't think they would be smart enough to switch to the appropriate weapon type for the enemy.

debo
08-15-2008, 12:04 PM
I hope you guys aren't spending that much time implementing these guys. They should be helpful at low levels for sure but at high levels where everyone is capped... I don't think they have much of a role.

And call me skeptical... but I am very worried about the AI implementation. This could be more trouble then they are worth.

MysticTheurge
08-15-2008, 12:05 PM
I hope you guys aren't spending that much time implementing these guys. They should be helpful at low levels for sure but at high levels where everyone is capped... I don't think they have much of a role.

Today's high level is tomorrow's mid-level grouping wasteland.

PhoenixFire31
08-15-2008, 12:08 PM
Today's high level is tomorrow's mid-level grouping wasteland.

QFT

Drider
08-15-2008, 12:08 PM
Today's high level is tomorrow's mid-level grouping wasteland.

Haha totally.

Angelus_dead
08-15-2008, 12:15 PM
Not for this module. If the new AI and control system works well, we may expand it out for summons later.
It seems rather backwards to start this stuff with human henchmen, and later expand it to summoned monsters. The players will have higher expectations for intelligent behavior from something that looks like a regular person, and it will be more disruptive to immersion if they do something stupid. Conversely, if an Earth Elemental is as dumb as a brick, nobody is very much disappointed.

There's a lot more room for forgivable shortcomings with monster-servant behavior.

Coldin
08-15-2008, 12:22 PM
It seems rather backwards to start this stuff with human henchmen, and later expand it to summoned monsters. The players will have higher expectations for intelligent behavior from something that looks like a regular person, and it will be more disruptive to immersion if they do something stupid. Conversely, if an Earth Elemental is as dumb as a brick, nobody is very much disappointed.

There's a lot more room for forgivable shortcomings with monster-servant behavior.

A_D, you're always so negative. It's probably easier to make the henchmen up from scratch with this new AI, then to adapt it down for the summoned monsters. I'm fine with waiting a little bit, but I do hope that as long as everything works fine, that summoned monsters will be following closely behind.

Gadget2775
08-15-2008, 12:24 PM
I hope you guys aren't spending that much time implementing these guys. They should be helpful at low levels for sure but at high levels where everyone is capped... I don't think they have much of a role.

And call me skeptical... but I am very worried about the AI implementation. This could be more trouble then they are worth.

Definitly useless at high levels. Much better to wait for a half hour for someome to fill a spot in a less than popular quest...I mean, what a drag bein able to add a high level (fill in this blank) for Coalecense Chamber. Everyone I know loves running that quest with me.

Or maybe it could get me a Cleric (When I'm not running mine) who won't whine about how expensive it is to run through Vale content.

Hmmm....Ya know, these henchmen might just be usefull at all level ranges.

I can see alot of uses at all levels for the henchmen...Especially for folks who haven't hooked up with a guild (can be hard to find a good one that fits right). Really hope Turbine explores their full potential.

Gadget2775
08-15-2008, 12:31 PM
It seems rather backwards to start this stuff with human henchmen, and later expand it to summoned monsters. The players will have higher expectations for intelligent behavior from something that looks like a regular person, and it will be more disruptive to immersion if they do something stupid. Conversely, if an Earth Elemental is as dumb as a brick, nobody is very much disappointed.

There's a lot more room for forgivable shortcomings with monster-servant behavior.

AI behavior for pets isn't great ATM but people are use to it...Not kicking the new minion AI over to pets immediately gives them a chance to make sure it works right before they go tinkering with another system in the game. Beyond that, the pet AI is probably something like the guts of an Old VW Bug, with the new minion AI being closer to a modern Hybrid. Try slapping the new engine into that Old VW and you're likely to end up with a broke VW.

VonBek
08-15-2008, 12:32 PM
I could really look forward to this, though I'm curious:

If the AI needs work shortly after release, or if the program gets buggy, I'd prefer to not recall/disband/reassemble. If we start a quest with henchcritters, and feel they detract from the experience, can we boot them from within the quest?

Gratch
08-15-2008, 12:39 PM
I wonder if to taunt us... all the henchmen will be half-orcs.

They'd also better finally give us the skimpy female sorcerer blue-outfit'ed henchman that appears all over game hyping media but not actually in the game - possibly on a half-orc female. *shrug*

Someone go to the booth and ask about our half-orczes and character slots. If you can "ask" with your larping halberd... um... bonus. Then ask for halberds.

silverraven
08-15-2008, 12:45 PM
I hope you guys aren't spending that much time implementing these guys. They should be helpful at low levels for sure but at high levels where everyone is capped... I don't think they have much of a role.

And call me skeptical... but I am very worried about the AI implementation. This could be more trouble then they are worth.

With a hired henchmen and a summon monster blocking the door, my wizard can blast through most quests with ease. No more people blowing up my web, no more melee types rushing away to grab a collectable....which brings an interesting question,

Can the hireling hold the instance while I get more mana? JOYGASM!

GrayOldDruid
08-15-2008, 12:46 PM
sounds interesting. certainly a major step.

hopefully it will pave the way towards druids.

WHA! NO... if it is this or Druids, GIMME DRUIDS NOWZ!!!

Druids before the end of the year!!!

Harncw
08-15-2008, 12:46 PM
My 2cp...

Henchmen are NOT going to live up to ppls expectations.

EDIT: It's not that I dont want them to... it just seems like they are gonna end up like the robots that come out each year at christmas. They break/suck whatever but yet people get roped into buying them each year after year.

rfachini
08-15-2008, 12:51 PM
I missed dev confirmation on how you aquire henchmen/hirelings.

Is it true that it takes a feat? If not, how does the system work?
Does it cost gold to get them or are they free? How long do they stay for? One quest? Forever?
I'd like to see some confirmed specifics.

Thanks,

DeadlyGazebo
08-15-2008, 12:52 PM
will there be any henchwomen?

or henchladies?

giggity giggity

Yes, but they get annoyed if you call them "consorts".

The henchrobots, on the other hand, are used to the racism inherent in the system, so they won't complain about being called rust-monster-bait.

Turial
08-15-2008, 12:52 PM
.. If we start a q.uest with henchcritters, and feel they detract from the experience, can we boot them from within the quest?

You mean let them die and leave their stones behind?

jkm
08-15-2008, 12:56 PM
i have to hand it to you, you just made ddo more solo friendly in one fell swoop. at some point are we going to be allowed bound henchmen that we can give equipment? :D

totmacher
08-15-2008, 12:57 PM
Yes, but they get annoyed if you call them "consorts".

The henchrobots, on the other hand, are used to the racism inherent in the system, so they won't complain about being called rust-monster-bait.

oh you jerk even wf are accepting of their status as 2nd class citizens????

magictoaster: "Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

Gratch
08-15-2008, 01:03 PM
What *is* ToT saying? *shrug*

So question.... with one player and one henchman... would it be possible to solo Xorian Cypher? You can currently open the four runes by um... getting monsters to "stay" on the runes. Can you make the henchy stay below and pull the lever? The ultimate test of henchy capability. Some sort of right click on his name and say "stay here" and then "Pull the nearest lever". Hmm... though you'd also need him to move forward due to the barrier that comes down to get near the lever. So we'd need a "move N/W/S/E 10 paces" sort of command.

Uproar
08-15-2008, 01:05 PM
What *is* ToT saying? *shrug*

So question.... with one player and one henchman... would it be possible to solo Xorian Cypher? You can currently open the four runes by um... getting monsters to "stay" on the runes. Can you make the henchy stay below and pull the lever? The ultimate test of henchy capability. Some sort of right click on his name and say "stay here" and then "Pull the nearest lever". Hmm... though you'd also need him to move forward due to the barrier that comes down to get near the lever. So we'd need a "move N/W/S/E 10 paces" sort of command.

Don't ask this question yet! You're spoiling the next year's worth of bug fixes and bannings for illegal use of exploits!

Bobbyd
08-15-2008, 01:08 PM
When the henchmen quit DDO... Can i have there stuff?

Pyromaniac
08-15-2008, 01:08 PM
Henchman definitely sounds like a positive addition to the game to me. Will help with some quests when soloing, or when I've just had enough of people I don't know. Gives us all new options. Do we get their raid loot and when's the level cap increase?

DeadlyGazebo
08-15-2008, 01:10 PM
Is the goal to have this implemented this year? Or sometime earlier next year.

I play in a group of 3, this is a great option for us. Can't wait to hear more about it and when it would be available. We were thinking of quiting but this would definitely keep us around playing DDO longer.

... should be coming this year.

ArkoHighStar
08-15-2008, 01:16 PM
It seems rather backwards to start this stuff with human henchmen, and later expand it to summoned monsters. The players will have higher expectations for intelligent behavior from something that looks like a regular person, and it will be more disruptive to immersion if they do something stupid. Conversely, if an Earth Elemental is as dumb as a brick, nobody is very much disappointed.

There's a lot more room for forgivable shortcomings with monster-servant behavior.

Summoned monsters are not an optional component of a group like a henchman would be, thus the impact of poorly performaing AI would simply that nobody uses them and we go about our business like they never happened(until Turbine fixes them). Summoned monsters with all their flaws are a known entity and we are well versed in their behaviour. So which is better to introduce something new that can be tweaked or possibly break an already used entity.

Forceonature
08-15-2008, 01:25 PM
magictoaster: "Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

Bloody peasant...

totmacher
08-15-2008, 01:31 PM
Bloody peasant...

it's all a conspiracy, even the devs are in on keeping wf down, dirty stinkin devs get your paws off my wf equality rights!!!

moorewr
08-15-2008, 01:34 PM
DG - Please answer this for me:

So it sounds like you can fill out a party with hirelings, but the cap is still 6.

Do I hire them somewhere - a vendor outside the quest, presumably in the House D Enclave? or is it automagic? If I've entered the quest with a full group - example; 3 hires and 3 players, can I still have an LFM up? Can I dismiss an employee inside a quest to make room?

gelgoog
08-15-2008, 01:35 PM
Glad to hear about the henchmen.

Quick questions.

1. Will we be able to select for the henchmen a mode(offensive,defensive,healing,Buffs,fire spells...etc).

2. How much will the Henchmen cost? XP,Gold?

3. Will Henchmen decrease the amount of xp that is awarded in a quest?


Well to this solo type player with limited time on his hands to play lately, Henchmen are a welcomed addition.

/shrug

VonBek
08-15-2008, 01:37 PM
You mean let them die and leave their stones behind?

What could possibly go wrong?

moorewr
08-15-2008, 01:41 PM
What could possibly go wrong?

*checks his notes*

Nope, I get paid the same either way...

Astria
08-15-2008, 01:42 PM
Disposable heroes will have a new AI. Hopefully smarter than the current Coyle.


Can I name them Coyle and get them killed without any consequences? pretty pretty please?

EightyFour
08-15-2008, 01:47 PM
Well I guess sense they have teleport to you and go pull that lever functions, I guess they well have a "STOP DOING THAT!!! AND GET YOUR BUTT OVER HERE NOW!!!" button as well, where you can than beat on your hireling for not sticking with the group and running off like a zerger into battle and agroing everything. Now if you could send him inot battle to die a heroic death, I guess he could be useful. We well see.

Lazarus
08-15-2008, 01:49 PM
i just hope to see a nice mix of hirelings, like after doing Tangle Root you can choose a couple of hobgoblin hirelings because you helped out ungurz or something similar. maybe some kobolds or even a minataur berzerker. would be cool to see some of the different humanoid monsters with maybe some different models and classes.

Gratch
08-15-2008, 01:50 PM
Ooh... can we please have a male and female henchy soundset that we can fill in with our own sound files. For various occasions of:
Henchy needs a heal, Henchy needs a rez, Henchy needs Haste pls, Henchy thinks we need to go back and do optionals for xp, Henchy has spouse/child aggro and will be back in a minute aka 20 minutes, Henchy wants to explain how DDO deviates from DnD, Henchy wants to quote movies... wrongly and badly, HASTE for Henchy NOW, Henchy wants you to reroll your sorry character and possibly player.

Those situations. Also... if you could make said sound files get shot over party chat so everyone can enjoy them... :)

llevenbaxx
08-15-2008, 02:03 PM
i have to hand it to you, you just made ddo more solo friendly in one fell swoop. at some point are we going to be allowed bound henchmen that we can give equipment? :D

When I saw the news, thats immediately what I started hoping for too.:) Im sure Sir & Lady Doe are nice people and all but they will be a little too plain for practicality im betting.

Zenako
08-15-2008, 02:04 PM
Does the Henchmen guild keep records and adjust who is willing to sign up based the characters rep for getting their toadies roasted??? You know..."NO way I am signing up with this guy, all he does is ransack Taming the Flames every day...and get 40 of us killed, his rep sucks." While the nice boss gets a deal or maybe better guys to work with?

Zenako
08-15-2008, 02:11 PM
Just a thought...not that it matters a lot

Will it still count as Solo play if you have a Henchman to help? I mean summoned mobs have always been cool when claiming to solo a quest. But now, you might have another, more skilled type of help. You know a cleric with 12 DVIII's and Raise Dead...A caster with unlimited mana like a Shaman who spams Lightning bolts every 5 seconds (along with Fogs, and glitterdust and Ice Storms...)....

Rav'n
08-15-2008, 02:18 PM
Maybe house favor related..? several levels of Hench-person. As your Favor goes up, you can get a better Hench-person?

I would say ..."I'm just Spit balling here"... but then someone would just say..

"It's all fun and games ...'til someone gets a spitball in the eye"... :D

faldordadink
08-15-2008, 02:21 PM
my guess is it will be vendor oriented, go to vendor and hire henchmen x for x gold (henchmen will always be equal in level to you)

llevenbaxx
08-15-2008, 02:23 PM
Does the Henchmen guild keep records and adjust who is willing to sign up based the characters rep for getting their toadies roasted??? You know..."NO way I am signing up with this guy, all he does is ransack Taming the Flames every day...and get 40 of us killed, his rep sucks." While the nice boss gets a deal or maybe better guys to work with?

Thats a really cool idea, they could really go off with this like if/when they get the housing implimented having premanent henchmen that you keep around the... well keep, that can progress up to a certain levels based on the PC level like how fighter/ paladins attract henchies(1luetenant (5th level ftr) and 3 footsoldiers(1st level ftr)) at higher levels. Same for a wizard w/apprentises. Perhaps a bit too ambitious but would be cool.

Blazer
08-15-2008, 02:24 PM
/continues less serious line of questioning

Will the henchmen be 28 or 32 point builds?

:)

jkm
08-15-2008, 02:26 PM
can you hire a hagglebot?

Coldin
08-15-2008, 02:27 PM
/continues less serious line of questioning

Will the henchmen be 28 or 32 point builds?

:)

They'll in fact be 108 point builds, and capable of killing your character should you decide not to pay him upon completion of the quest. :)

Razvan
08-15-2008, 02:28 PM
Man, I wish this would the case as you indicated: hire henchman 1 for 1 gold :D
my guess is it will be vendor oriented, go to vendor and hire henchmen x for x gold (henchmen will always be equal in level to you)

Drider
08-15-2008, 02:28 PM
Can we name them by number? Like Henchman 21 and Henchman 24?

http://usera.imagecave.com/Metallica84/AdultSwim/Henchman21and24.jpg

Or how about the Murderous Moppets?

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg99/Evildrider/Moppetstruce.jpg

Spell
08-15-2008, 02:33 PM
Irked again.
Henchmen before familiars?! Familiars are, for the most part, a staple of a casters equipment. It's not enough that casters get shafted on the lack of cantrips and plenty of missing spells that could be implemented, but now they're planning for anyone to be able to get a henchman and totally disregard the casters favorite ally of familiars.
I can only hope that these henchmen are opening the way for familiars, pets and dare I say the likes of the "Mirror Image" spell.

moorewr
08-15-2008, 02:33 PM
They really *should* loot the chests, and you should see what they loot, and they should make comments about the loot and equip items at random.

And they should taunt mobs - so Kai-Teng and my hirelings could have an argument while I stood on a lamppost and watched.

Uska
08-15-2008, 02:37 PM
Henchmen would make Soloing a lot easier.... IF done right. IF you can tell your henchman to "Go pull that lever" and such. I would SOOO be running Delera's solo (with henchmen).

IF, however, they use the current "pet" AI, then... well, just one more potentially cool thing turned to useless ****.

You could sure do a lot more three and four man groups. With a full group, oh the fun that could be had.

Of course, hopefully like in D&D, you do have to care for your henchmen and you level them up and provide gear and such.

:D I'd have henchmen with Weakening weapons, Maldroit weapons, crippling, slowburst... :D

I doubt they will be that detailed and you wont be able to give detailed commands or equip them I am betting on things like attack that, follow me guard me, heal me, stay, guard this and maybe partrol this area.

Gratch
08-15-2008, 02:40 PM
Irked again.
Henchmen before familiars?! Familiars are, for the most part, a staple of a casters equipment.

Don't worry. I'm sure the henchpeoples will have familiars. They'll taunt you with them: "Look at my pseudo-dragon. Isn't he cool. He buys reconstruct scrolls for me every fortnight."

Uska
08-15-2008, 02:44 PM
What if all 6 party members have 1 henchman each? Then it would be twice as big...

I think you can only do that in a raid I think you could have 3 people each with a hirling and that would be your standard group as it would be 6 and I really dont think it would be as good a group as 6 real people

Coldin
08-15-2008, 02:46 PM
Irked again.
Henchmen before familiars?! Familiars are, for the most part, a staple of a casters equipment. It's not enough that casters get shafted on the lack of cantrips and plenty of missing spells that could be implemented, but now they're planning for anyone to be able to get a henchman and totally disregard the casters favorite ally of familiars.
I can only hope that these henchmen are opening the way for familiars, pets and dare I say the likes of the "Mirror Image" spell.

Well, familiars generally aren't very useful on their own except for flavor purposes. Maybe as a scout or something, but that's about it. Still, henchmen are a good start along the road to getting familiars, animal companions, and the like.

Uska
08-15-2008, 02:47 PM
Now I'm starting to wonder how this is going to work. Will you be able to view the the equipment screen of your hireling and equip him as you see fit? Can they trade with other characters?


I doubt you can trade with them

Kettricken_Nightwie
08-15-2008, 02:55 PM
There are just too many amusing comments here to reply to them all, but the humor was appreciated nonetheless.

I don't remember well, but wasn't it a feat in pnp that got you cohorts? Would this be similar? May already have been mentioned, but I was too lazy to read the whole thread :)

hammerstriker1
08-15-2008, 02:56 PM
This, for me, has got to be the most disappointing news i've heard about any update. Henchmen?!!! Are you freakin kidding me. Oh no, let's not add more quests/classes/races, or fix the many bugs in the game. Let's add Henchmen!! I gotta say, that with each update, this game continues, with the exception of mod 7, to move in an undesireable direction. Druids? Halforcs? Halfelves? Prestige classes? Are some of these NOT basic D&D? I am confused as to how a game can claim to be Dungeons and Dragons Online and not include these features. IMO, these exclusions are THE reason this game is not more popular, and will continue to decline.

my 2 cp.

Korvek
08-15-2008, 02:59 PM
This, for me, has got to be the most disappointing news i've heard about any update. Henchmen?!!! Are you freakin kidding me. Oh no, let's not add more quests/classes/races, or fix the many bugs in the game. Let's add Henchmen!! I gotta say, that with each update, this game continues, with the exception of mod 7, to move in an undesireable direction. Druids? Halforcs? Halfelves? Prestige classes? Are some of these NOT basic D&D? I am confused as to how a game can claim to be Dungeons and Dragons Online and not include these features. IMO, these exclusions are THE reason this game is not more popular, and will continue to decline.

my 2 cp.

I think it would be wise to hold off somewhat on passing judgement on something you have yet to see implemented. Also, they're most likely testing new AI with these that will later be used for other development. And I'm certain the devs are working on Druids, Half-Orcs, etc.

Coldin
08-15-2008, 03:00 PM
This, for me, has got to be the most disappointing news i've heard about any update. Henchmen?!!! Are you freakin kidding me. Oh no, let's not add more quests/classes/races, or fix the many bugs in the game. Let's add Henchmen!! I gotta say, that with each update, this game continues, with the exception of mod 7, to move in an undesireable direction. Druids? Halforcs? Halfelves? Prestige classes? Are some of these NOT basic D&D? I am confused as to how a game can claim to be Dungeons and Dragons Online and not include these features. IMO, these exclusions are THE reason this game is not more popular, and will continue to decline.

my 2 cp.

This type of post doesn't really deserve a comment, but I'm bored, so I will anyway.

Quests and Raids are coming in Mod 8. New Races (Half-orcs) and new Classes (druids) are planned or in the works. The new player experience and henchmen are things that make it easier for the average gamer, who hasn't grown up with DnD, to better acclimate to the game, and these features should make it much easier for new players to actually enjoy their first few moments in DDO. That right there is probably the best thing Turbine can do for the game.

Drider
08-15-2008, 03:04 PM
This type of post doesn't really deserve a comment, but I'm bored, so I will anyway.

Quests and Raids are coming in Mod 8. New Races (Half-orcs) and new Classes (druids) are planned or in the works. The new player experience and henchmen are things that make it easier for the average gamer, who hasn't grown up with DnD, to better acclimate to the game, and these features should make it much easier for new players to actually enjoy their first few moments in DDO. That right there is probably the best thing Turbine can do for the game.


Besides any of the people that would be working on Henchmen wouldn't be doing stuff like new dungeons anyway. This was more work for the scripting/AI guys more then anything. Better AI is better for all of us, so if they wanna try working new ideas on additions that help us, or rather newer players and soloers out, then so be it.

Verdant_Force
08-15-2008, 03:05 PM
This, for me, has got to be the most disappointing news i've heard about any update. Henchmen?!!! Are you freakin kidding me. Oh no, let's not add more quests/classes/races, or fix the many bugs in the game. Let's add Henchmen!! I gotta say, that with each update, this game continues, with the exception of mod 7, to move in an undesireable direction. Druids? Halforcs? Halfelves? Prestige classes? Are some of these NOT basic D&D? I am confused as to how a game can claim to be Dungeons and Dragons Online and not include these features. IMO, these exclusions are THE reason this game is not more popular, and will continue to decline.

my 2 cp.

Hug it out, *****.

hammerstriker1
08-15-2008, 03:10 PM
I guess here's my problem with this. In two years, two!! There has been 1 new race, and 1 new class introduced!! Now i've played since beta, and remember druids being talked about before mod 1. At this rate, we can expect in the next year, a POSIBILITY of 1 more new race, and in the next TWO years, the POSIBILITY of 1 new class. I guess I just can't fathom these time frames for this sort of stuff to happen. Yes, I know all of the changes that have been made to the game, and yes, I know all of the new quests/raids/enhancements that have been added/made. But I still insist that DDO declined because of lack of variety. Variety is what D&D is. With many different races/class/prestige class combos available. This is also EXACTLY what DDO does not have.

Imo, I can see this games decline, and have seen it for some time. Soon we'll be down to 1 server. Oh well, bout time to move on.

faldordadink
08-15-2008, 03:12 PM
cya

bigpapataz
08-15-2008, 03:19 PM
Well....... Your henchman won't tell you you suck. That you are noob. They won't tell you you have no business taking your own loot. They won't drop group in the middle of a quest because you don't want to use cheese to complete a quest.

See, still plenty of reasons to still pug!!:D

well there are a few players that the AI might just start doing and you become the henchman lol

EKKM
08-15-2008, 03:20 PM
This, for me, has got to be the most disappointing news i've heard about any update. Henchmen?!!! Are you freakin kidding me. Oh no, let's not add more quests/classes/races, or fix the many bugs in the game. Let's add Henchmen!! I gotta say, that with each update, this game continues, with the exception of mod 7, to move in an undesireable direction. Druids? Halforcs? Halfelves? Prestige classes? Are some of these NOT basic D&D? I am confused as to how a game can claim to be Dungeons and Dragons Online and not include these features. IMO, these exclusions are THE reason this game is not more popular, and will continue to decline.

my 2 cp.

Actually Basic DnD only included the following classes: A Human Fighter, Cleric, Magic User or thief, Elf , dwarf and Halfling :)

sorry for being a smart as_. DnD has had many incarnations, some had druids and half orcs, some did not. All have been very popular.

Turial
08-15-2008, 03:25 PM
There are just too many amusing comments here to reply to them all, but the humor was appreciated nonetheless.

I don't remember well, but wasn't it a feat in pnp that got you cohorts? Would this be similar? May already have been mentioned, but I was too lazy to read the whole thread :)

Yes there is a feat in pnp which allows you to gather followers or cohorts based on factor x. I would hope that this hired henchpeople update would lead into an interesting feat like that. It opens the possibility for other avenues of play rather then straight questing and raiding all the time. I can just see the botton now "send minions to their doom!"

Verdant_Force
08-15-2008, 03:28 PM
Not sure if I remember this correctly, but did Paladins get free cohorts in PnP? For some odd reason I have an inkling they did...

/shrug
maybe one of my idiot paladin friends took the feat and THAT stuck in my head...

Uproar
08-15-2008, 03:28 PM
Hammerstriker's point is one I share. My original post stated I couldn't believe this is what was coming next -- and I can't.

It would seem to me that an 8 year old could design these quests with the proper tool knowledge. Why are they meagered out so slowly? Why not 10 new dungeons a month? Seriously! If it's too hard to achieve that now then I can only guess their toolset stinks, how about investing a year into developing tools -- not henchmen? Henchmen would be dead last on my list of priorities.

Is there some belief that the world is too big? Have you played EQ? Have you played even Wow?

It's not that it's too big to be supported and compaigned by the playerbase, it's that the playerbase has dwindled because it quickly runs out of content and must continuously rinse and repeat old content and/or do a lot of quests they'd rather not.

(And BTW too bad 'CYA' wasn't bannable. It sure is antagonistic and unhelpful).

Ustice
08-15-2008, 03:28 PM
Being sick, I just don't have the energy to read all of the posts here, so if some of my questions are repeats, please forgive me.


What commands can we give our henchmen?
You mentioned personalities, how will the be implemented?
It has been mentioned previously that this is the type of system that would need to be in place for Druids to be realized. What's the next steps?

GrayOldDruid
08-15-2008, 03:29 PM
This, for me, has got to be the most disappointing news i've heard about any update. Henchmen?!!! Are you freakin kidding me. Oh no, let's not add more quests/classes/races, or fix the many bugs in the game. Let's add Henchmen!! I gotta say, that with each update, this game continues, with the exception of mod 7, to move in an undesireable direction. Druids? Halforcs? Halfelves? Prestige classes? Are some of these NOT basic D&D? I am confused as to how a game can claim to be Dungeons and Dragons Online and not include these features. IMO, these exclusions are THE reason this game is not more popular, and will continue to decline.

my 2 cp.

Why do you ASSume that the whole entire Mod 8 will be "Henchmen" ?? The simple mindedness of your statement is appalling.
Seriously, how do people like that survive?? They hear ONE feature of a Mod and ASSume that is all there is to the new content.

Are people going to do this with each bit of news?

New Player Experience in Mod 8 - "OMG!!! No new content!! Only New Player lowbie stuff and harbor make-over!! Mod 8 is gonna SUCK!!!"

New Character Creation Templates - "OMG!!! They're nerfing character creation!!! This will ruin the whole game!!!"

We're Getting the option of Henchmen - "OMFG!!!! No new content!!! Just Henchmen!!! And a New lowbie area!!! and New character creation template!!!! The game is ruined!!! I am dropping now before the total disappointment!!!!"

(fudging from here on out, not really official reports)

Eight more Quests in Mod 8 - "OMG!!! Only eight Quests?? DDO is RUINED. We need more Raids... where are the Raids!!! Oh, Dooom!!"

Druids are coming in Mod 8 - "OMG!!! Only Druids??? They're gonna be the new Monks, oh, this sucks!!! WHINE WHINE WHINE!!! I'm getting rid of my computer all together!!!"

Three new High Level Raids - "OMG!!! Just this limited content for only high level stuff!!! I hate leveling up through all the old Familiar stuff... well, other than the new player experience and the still fairly new Three Barrel Cove stuff.... "

Two new Mid-level Raids - "OMG!!! Where is all the xClass LOVE??? All this and xClass is going to be so Nerfed and horrible~!!! I may as well just take a thousand sleeping pills!!!!"

...... get the point??

Lithic
08-15-2008, 03:30 PM
So............ Now clerics can tell barbarians to "Go get your own F@&%$ healbot, they come cheap in the market and I need my SP for bladebarrier!" right? :D


Oh and can you PLEASE make the henchbarbs (esp WF ones) constantly yell "HJEAL MEH!" in party chat if at anything other than 100% hp? That would make things sooo much more immersive hehe.

EKKM
08-15-2008, 03:34 PM
Not sure if I remember this correctly, but did Paladins get free cohorts in PnP? For some odd reason I have an inkling they did...

/shrug
maybe one of my idiot paladin friends took the feat and THAT stuck in my head...

In AD&D 2nd edition all the classes got some sort of henchmen when they achieved 10th level. IIRC Fighter and pally's got henchmen, or in the fighters case possibly armies. Clerics got followers, wizards got apprentices etc.

I believe it was required that the character have a stronghold/ temple/ tower to acquire them.

Turial
08-15-2008, 03:35 PM
Being sick, I just don't have the energy to read all of the posts here, so if some of my questions are repeats, please forgive me.

What commands can we give our henchmen?
You mentioned personalities, how will the be implemented?
It has been mentioned previously that this is the type of system that would need to be in place for Druids to be realized. What's the next steps?

Not that this was explicitly stated but I would expect the following.

1. Attack [magic], Attack [melee], Attack [ranged], Stay, Come, heal, request buff x
2. Imagine personalities like Coyle, the 12 dude from sacrifice, and a few others. The personalities may come out as speach in general chat or in how they handle aggro or sight of mobs.
3. This henchmen system will be key for summoning animals (druids have spontaneous summon animal in pnp) and for animal companion tech (I really hope so). After this comes wild shape and fleshing out more animals/forms for druids to take and how it affects their stats etc.

EKKM
08-15-2008, 03:36 PM
Why do you ASSume that the whole entire Mod 8 will be "Henchmen" ?? The simple mindedness of your statement is appalling.
Seriously, how do people like that survive?? They hear ONE feature of a Mod and ASSume that is all there is to the new content.

Are people going to do this with each bit of news?

New Player Experience in Mod 8 - "OMG!!! No new content!! Only New Player lowbie stuff and harbor make-over!! Mod 8 is gonna SUCK!!!"

New Character Creation Templates - "OMG!!! They're nerfing character creation!!! This will ruin the whole game!!!"

We're Getting the option of Henchmen - "OMFG!!!! No new content!!! Just Henchmen!!! And a New lowbie area!!! and New character creation template!!!! The game is ruined!!! I am dropping now before the total disappointment!!!!"

(fudging from here on out, not really official reports)

Eight more Quests in Mod 8 - "OMG!!! Only eight Quests?? DDO is RUINED. We need more Raids... where are the Raids!!! Oh, Dooom!!"

Druids are coming in Mod 8 - "OMG!!! Only Druids??? They're gonna be the new Monks, oh, this sucks!!! WHINE WHINE WHINE!!! I'm getting rid of my computer all together!!!"

Three new High Level Raids - "OMG!!! Just this limited content for only high level stuff!!! I hate leveling up through all the old Familiar stuff... well, other than the new player experience and the still fairly new Three Barrel Cove stuff.... "

Two new Mid-level Raids - "OMG!!! Where is all the xClass LOVE??? All this and xClass is going to be so Nerfed and horrible~!!! I may as well just take a thousand sleeping pills!!!!"

...... get the point??

You think all the mods have sucked? :)

I agree, doesn't matter what the devs do, someone will whine about it.. Likely loudly.

Turial
08-15-2008, 03:37 PM
....
Oh and can you PLEASE make the henchbarbs (esp WF ones) constantly yell "HJEAL MEH!" in party chat if at anything other than 100% hp? That would make things sooo much more immersive hehe.

Henchman battlecrys: "Leeeroy Jenkinnnnssss!", "Suicide squad go!", "For Coyle!", "Health plan!"

faldordadink
08-15-2008, 03:40 PM
maybe its just me but if someone is ready to quit the game because they don't like what the have heard about new content then cya seems to be the appropriate answer, it could have been alot worse, you will have to excuse me, I have just recently started following the forum and find most of the posts amusing/informative but unless you are giving CONSTRUCTIVE criticism on game aspects that we actually have FACTS about you really shouldn't be putting down the game. How does that look to newbies? I'm sorry if I offended you by my comment, I will refrain from making remarks about other peoples comments since all it does is promote the things I hate most about forums, just couldn't help myself :(

MysticTheurge
08-15-2008, 03:42 PM
It would seem to me that an 8 year old could design these quests with the proper tool knowledge.

An 8 year old with a typewriter can write novels too. They're just not any good.


It sure is antagonistic and unhelpful.

Oh, irony.

Angelus_dead
08-15-2008, 03:47 PM
We're Getting the option of Henchmen - "OMFG!!!! No new content!!! Just Henchmen!!! And a New lowbie area!!! and New character creation template!!!! The game is ruined!!! I am dropping now before the total disappointment!!!!"
It's not at all illogical to be upset at the introduction of henchmen, if that's not the kind of feature you want to use.

Fact 1: Henchmen require a heavy amount of difficult development work to get them right. There's AI, artwork, user-interface, and game balance.
Fact 2: DDO has a fairly limited budget.

Inescapable conclusion: If DDO had not added henchmen, they'd have had resources for multiple other kinds of improvements like new dungeons, new monsters, fixed interface, and fixed classes.

debo
08-15-2008, 03:52 PM
It's not at all illogical to be upset at the introduction of henchmen, if that's not the kind of feature you want to use.

Fact 1: Henchmen require a heavy amount of difficult development work to get them right. There's AI, artwork, user-interface, and game balance.
Fact 2: DDO has a fairly limited budget.

Inescapable conclusion: If DDO had not added henchmen, they'd have had resources for multiple other kinds of improvements like new dungeons, new monsters, fixed interface, and fixed classes.

That is precisely what worries me. I just hope they don't get bogged down coding the AI for these guys and not have the time to add the content and level cap that I am really hoping for ...

Zenako
08-15-2008, 03:53 PM
Reading a bit between the lines I could see Henchmen working like a toggle. Hit F1 for Character UI, hit F2 for Henchman UI. In the Henchman UI it looks a lot like the normal character UI, so you could move and interact with the same controls, even "play the henchman" for a bit, OR, you could activate a series of commands/switches.

Select Follow Orders: Stay Close, Stay nearby, Stay put.
Activity Orders: Autoattack, Attack what I am attacking, attack with Ranged, etc
Spell Orders: Cast Healing spells when 75/50/25% or less HP. Cast "attack spells" perhaps from a limited or selected list. Custom casting, only while under UI control for casting BUFF types spells. (Need to toggle into control at that time, then toggle back out).

Beyond most of those, you might be able to trigger some conditional orders. IF SPOT/SENSE trap, Begin Search. Might need to F1/F2 to actually Disable or Disarm.

You don't really want the AI to completely play the game for you. I would suspect only under UI control could you open doors, flip switches, go thru portals (unless they rubber band on that one).

That seems like the easiest way to give a lot of utility to a henchman and keep the AI expectations to a minimum. With newer AI that mobs use to get out of things like walls of fire, having henchment who would move to get out of stuff like that in battle needs to be on autopilot.

Verdant_Force
08-15-2008, 03:54 PM
It's not at all illogical to be upset at the introduction of henchmen, if that's not the kind of feature you want to use.

Fact 1: Henchmen require a heavy amount of difficult development work to get them right. There's AI, artwork, user-interface, and game balance.
Fact 2: DDO has a fairly limited budget.

Inescapable conclusion: If DDO had not added henchmen, they'd have had resources for multiple other kinds of improvements like new dungeons, new monsters, fixed interface, and fixed classes.

I'm glad you're always here to keep us grounded :D

Zenako
08-15-2008, 04:02 PM
That is precisely what worries me. I just hope they don't get bogged down coding the AI for these guys and not have the time to add the content and level cap that I am really hoping for ...

But smart AI for henchmen bodes well for smarter AI for mobs and quite a few players would relish the challenge of facing smarter behaving mobs even if it kills off a few easy buttons.

Also I recall that we have always been having some new UI or player end things in most mods, along with quests. I strongly suspect those are parrelell teams. See my post above for a possible implementation. Probably not all that hard to do and the AI changes would not have to be enormous compared to current AI of summoned mobs. So this time instead of improved Weapons Pair slots, quivers, "crafting stuff", we get henchmen, etc. While another whole team is working quests.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-15-2008, 04:05 PM
Not sure if I remember this correctly, but did Paladins get free cohorts in PnP? For some odd reason I have an inkling they did...

/shrug
maybe one of my idiot paladin friends took the feat and THAT stuck in my head...

No, in fact paladins were more restricted in that they can only have LG henchmen.

Riggs
08-15-2008, 04:09 PM
It's not at all illogical to be upset at the introduction of henchmen, if that's not the kind of feature you want to use.

Fact 1: Henchmen require a heavy amount of difficult development work to get them right. There's AI, artwork, user-interface, and game balance.
Fact 2: DDO has a fairly limited budget.

Inescapable conclusion: If DDO had not added henchmen, they'd have had resources for multiple other kinds of improvements like new dungeons, new monsters, fixed interface, and fixed classes.

Indeed.

I love new features. Hirelings may end up being a great addition with really useful AI, scripts for various situations (BG2 had some really good AI and scripts). And there are many mid to high level quests I would love to be able to do without waiting 45 minutes with an lfm because no one wants to do quest x unless they are 3 levels below it, or whatever.

But. Have been waiting for Druids and Half-orcs for two years. It keeps getting promised, then hinted at, then 'suggested it may be out in 2 years'.

Any kind of new changes, new additions require resources of time, and staffing, and money. Projects need money (We need more stations in Lab B for testing etc). Watching new additions come out implies that most staffing and resources are going towards those additions - and not other ones.

While players cant know the exact details of how resources are allocated, the fact remains that groups of people are working on new stuff, and the new stuff as of yet doesnt seem to include the rest of the 'basic' classes and races. 2.5 years and there has been 1 new class, and half a race (drow are elves with new colors and enhancements, not a brand new race).

Half-orcs and Druids have been a part of D&D for at least 20 years. I would love to roll a druid or two and play all the old contecnt all over again (sigh) esp an Eberron Half-Orc Druid. I know that Druids will require a lot more work than a standard class, shapshifting as well as 'permanent' pets. But after a while it gets depressing to hear yet again 'maybe next year, or even maybe the year after that, after level cap hits 20, which may or may not be next year now'...etc.

So hirelings may be really cool. And it should be a good addition to the game for most people. But many people are looking for other additions still after 2 years of 'maybe next year'. Hirelings will require artwork...Half orcs will require artwork...can we have a vote on which ones people want first?

NullWolf
08-15-2008, 04:17 PM
Maybe some henchmen would be 1/2 Orc Druids... that would be an interesting way for them to "preview" and "test" them... lol...

RioRussell
08-15-2008, 04:23 PM
When the henchmen quit DDO... Can i have there stuff?

On that note, if one bugs out and finds a place to hide at the beginning of the quest, I am reporting them for plat farming

hammerstriker1
08-15-2008, 04:46 PM
Why do you ASSume that the whole entire Mod 8 will be "Henchmen" ?? The simple mindedness of your statement is appalling.
Seriously, how do people like that survive?? They hear ONE feature of a Mod and ASSume that is all there is to the new content.

Are people going to do this with each bit of news?

New Player Experience in Mod 8 - "OMG!!! No new content!! Only New Player lowbie stuff and harbor make-over!! Mod 8 is gonna SUCK!!!"

New Character Creation Templates - "OMG!!! They're nerfing character creation!!! This will ruin the whole game!!!"

We're Getting the option of Henchmen - "OMFG!!!! No new content!!! Just Henchmen!!! And a New lowbie area!!! and New character creation template!!!! The game is ruined!!! I am dropping now before the total disappointment!!!!"

(fudging from here on out, not really official reports)

Eight more Quests in Mod 8 - "OMG!!! Only eight Quests?? DDO is RUINED. We need more Raids... where are the Raids!!! Oh, Dooom!!"

Druids are coming in Mod 8 - "OMG!!! Only Druids??? They're gonna be the new Monks, oh, this sucks!!! WHINE WHINE WHINE!!! I'm getting rid of my computer all together!!!"

Three new High Level Raids - "OMG!!! Just this limited content for only high level stuff!!! I hate leveling up through all the old Familiar stuff... well, other than the new player experience and the still fairly new Three Barrel Cove stuff.... "

Two new Mid-level Raids - "OMG!!! Where is all the xClass LOVE??? All this and xClass is going to be so Nerfed and horrible~!!! I may as well just take a thousand sleeping pills!!!!"

...... get the point??

This is funny. If you read my post, my complaint was based on the fact that, IMO, this is a waste. My problem is not that henchmen are being introduced into the game. My problem is what ISN'T in the game that, once again, IMO, should be a part of the game. Even if it was just the basic races and classes/prestige classes from the Player's Handbook, and Dungeon Masters Guide, with the addition of the warforged race, I would be more than happy.

Did I think this was all that was comming? I guess I was not clear on that aspect. One could say, from reading my post or parts of it, that I'm a noobish tard with no brains. However, I never thought that an entire Mod would consist of just henchmen.

Helmet
08-15-2008, 04:53 PM
if you are worried this new thing we replace party memebers you are fooling your self.

think how useful EVERY other soloing tweak turibne has made, then you will get an idea of how many ppl will use henchmen.

or think how crafting was going to be a huge deal, then...oops half of the recipes dont even work. I would not worry about a henchmen repalcing a cleric or rogue. I am sure they will be useless.

Galath_Eralion
08-15-2008, 05:11 PM
I mostly solo in DDO. I lurk the forums but rarely post. I'm pretty sure there are plenty like me.

The only bone the devs have really thrown us soloers in the history of DDO (I've been here since closed beta) has been solo difficulty on quests. Try leveling up that way.

I understand that I will have to group for some quests, and I deal with that fact. I prefer to solo, however. The 1/2 hour or so to put together a group to do the quest is often the only time I have to play for that evening. Who would enjoy a game that consists of nothing but trying to build a party?

I understand that groupers (the vast majority of players) probably have a problem with this, but I am elated that the devs have finally given a small amount of their time to attracting my demographic. I've been very close to quitting several times. Now I have a reason to hang in there. Some of you now know how I've felt with almost every update (*New grouping features!*New Raids!*New High Level Content!*Crafting greensteel!*etc). None of the aforementioned ever affected me, because I cannot get to a level to appreciate it. I may be able to, now. I've never posted to complain about any of these things, I've always been happy to see the game grow. Please show me and my kind the same courtesy.

I understand I'll probably get flamed for this post. Rest assured that I've probably already been called worse names in real life than you can come up with here.

Just to let you know why someone would solo an MMO instead of playing a "single player" game (because I know it will come up):
A) Frequent content updates
B) One small fee per month instead of buying 1 or 2 new games per month
C) Frequent and community oriented bug fixes
D) The only good DnD 3.5 game for the computer (opinion :))
E) The only computer game I know that uses the Eberron Setting (I hated it at first, but it's grown on me)
F) And, yes, the ability to group when possible/wanted


I just hope that they don't make it too expensive. I'm perpetually broke. I think they should base it on a percentage (in gold) of all chest loot available (not picked up) to the player during the quest...paid at the end. If the player cannot pay, no more henchman will join until the fee is paid to the NPC intermediary.

Just my $0.02

Galath_Eralion
08-15-2008, 05:21 PM
Here's what I would like to see. I know that it would be a coding nghtmare, and probably impossible (especially because of AI stuff), but I feel loquacious tonight.

Players should be able to "opt in" as henchmen. If they click the box (on character screen) to allow themselves to be used, then when another player chooses them, a copy of their character is made, including equipment and spells memorized, and assigned to the hiring player, who must be of equal or higher level.

The "copy" would accompany the hirer, so there is no possibility of griefing. The actual character never takes damage, etc.

The original character hired, however, would get a percentage of both gold paid and experience earned. For instance, 5% of the gold that the purchaser earned (in gold and items from chests) and 2.5% of the xp that the hiring character earned.

Lewcipher
08-15-2008, 05:24 PM
More answers here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KANI2dpXLw&feature=related

Ghoste
08-15-2008, 05:24 PM
Henchmen?

I love the idea, but then just look at the current game AI. When I go over in my mind all the precise strategy and timing that it takes to make it work, and this is supposed to be an option for soloing (am I understanding that correctly). Heh, no thanks. I already am able to purchase summon monster 1 scrolls for my sacrificial puppies. I don't need to waste a feat for yet another pet with ass-horrible AI.

Angelus_dead
08-15-2008, 05:39 PM
Here's a sad possibility that will eventually happen:
Some slow player will be dropped from the 6th slot of a party in favor of a henchman.

More frequently, he won't be invited at all because "We can just get a henchy".

This will mean many players will become accustomed to groups of 3-4 players + 2-3 henchies when doing normal quests, creating a greater gap from when they do raids and need 10-12 actual players.

Korvek
08-15-2008, 05:42 PM
More answers here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KANI2dpXLw&feature=related

Wow, I expected something along those lines, but nothing quite like...that.

moorewr
08-15-2008, 05:49 PM
Here's a sad possibility that will eventually happen:
Some slow player will be dropped from the 6th slot of a party in favor of a henchman.

More frequently, he won't be invited at all because "We can just get a henchy".

This will mean many players will become accustomed to groups of 3-4 players + 2-3 henchies when doing normal quests, creating a greater gap from when they do raids and need 10-12 actual players.

You are quite right.. often these players short-man quests now.. in preference to rolling the LFM dice, but yes, this will happen. They need to make sure that henchmen are attractive only as a second best. Maybe make them cost XP as well as plat?

CSFurious
08-15-2008, 06:22 PM
some people like to play different ways

this has the potential to be cool & as to groups sometimes i do not like to lead a bunch of pooftas thru a dungeon, this gives myself & others more options to complete a quest

Hafeal
08-15-2008, 06:40 PM
Disposable heroes will have a new AI. Hopefully smarter than the current Coyle.

I understand the sentiment and AI can always be improved BUT I think AI criticsm is overblown. As with a thread I started before (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=151398) ... I can only imagine programming AI for casters with 20+ intelligence to the fighter with a 6 is a huge undertaking. As I have asked before, how do you program stupidity? And how do you do it without being criticized that the mobs are so dumb ...well many are.


Your helpers will look a lot like normal characters; they'll have a subset of the same classes, spells, feats, etc available to you. Total party size is still limited to six with at most one henchman per player, however; they're meant to assist small parties, not to make full ones twice as big.

My guess will be that they will be helpful on normal quests, not so much on hard and quickly killed on elite.


They won't give it away, if they do. That's their loot.

Ah, nice to hear a dev say it. Can we now, finally put the monthly request for the the old loot distribution system to be reinstalled in its final resting place? :D

dameron
08-15-2008, 07:19 PM
This is good news. Forced grouping is a terrible idea. That + the original death penalty are pretty much what castrated the game.

But again, I wonder about all this focus on new players and lower level content. I figure either Turbine will open the game up to consoles or do a massive revamp to bring us up to something resembling 4th edition (or both).

ArkoHighStar
08-15-2008, 07:36 PM
It's not at all illogical to be upset at the introduction of henchmen, if that's not the kind of feature you want to use.

Fact 1: Henchmen require a heavy amount of difficult development work to get them right. There's AI, artwork, user-interface, and game balance.
Fact 2: DDO has a fairly limited budget.

Inescapable conclusion: If DDO had not added henchmen, they'd have had resources for multiple other kinds of improvements like new dungeons, new monsters, fixed interface, and fixed classes.

Again A_D your assumtions are flawed because you make the assumption that Henchman development is an independant endevour that does not apply to anything else that we may want. One can just as easily make an equally valid assumption that the henchman AI is the basis for animal companions for druids and rangers, and perhaps familiars, and just as crafting has gone through a beta with the shroud, companion AI can go through a test of fire with henchman, and be that much more solid when druids are introduced

Angelus_dead
08-15-2008, 08:00 PM
Again A_D your assumtions are flawed
The word "again" is incorrect here, because it implies you are continuing something from earlier, which is not true.


because you make the assumption that Henchman development is an independant endevour that does not apply to anything else that we may want. One can just as easily make an equally valid assumption that the henchman AI is the basis for animal companions for druids and rangers, and perhaps familiars
If that's true, it doesn't change the fact that those features took limited resources away from other potential features.

salmag
08-15-2008, 08:50 PM
Again A_D your assumtions are flawed because you make the assumption that Henchman development is an independant endevour that does not apply to anything else that we may want. One can just as easily make an equally valid assumption that the henchman AI is the basis for animal companions for druids and rangers, and perhaps familiars, and just as crafting has gone through a beta with the shroud, companion AI can go through a test of fire with henchman, and be that much more solid when druids are introduced

So are you implying that crafting is solid the way it is? Crafting, as is implemented now, is far from solid, and it is severely lacking. Raid crafting is ok, but that is specific.

As for animal companions/familiars, why not just implement them to begin with, instead of wasting valuable coding time on henchmen, and then having to code again for the various animal companions/familiars that players want. I would rather they spend time programming the Druids themselves than add something frivolous that will take away from grouping (which is what I thought DDO was supposed to encourage).

binnsr
08-15-2008, 08:57 PM
I understand the sentiment and AI can always be improved BUT I think AI criticsm is overblown. As with a thread I started before (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=151398) ... I can only imagine programming AI for casters with 20+ intelligence to the fighter with a 6 is a huge undertaking. As I have asked before, how do you program stupidity? And how do you do it without being criticized that the mobs are so dumb ...well many are.

Hey.. If a 1 Int bat can open gates in Coalescence chamber, then I can only imagine the quality of my disposable hero :)

jumpinjahosiphat
08-15-2008, 09:02 PM
HENCHMAN !!!!!!!!!!!1
yyyeeeessssssssssss!!!!

This 1 small decision from the developers has possibly doubled my enjoyment of this game.
I play in a static duo and this game change might mean years of more enjoyment for me.
1750 (and raid flagging possibly) here I come.

Spell
08-15-2008, 09:03 PM
And all the plat farmers rejoiced. ROFL

Vordax
08-15-2008, 09:12 PM
It's not at all illogical to be upset at the introduction of henchmen, if that's not the kind of feature you want to use.

Fact 1: Henchmen require a heavy amount of difficult development work to get them right. There's AI, artwork, user-interface, and game balance.
Fact 2: DDO has a fairly limited budget.

Inescapable conclusion: If DDO had not added henchmen, they'd have had resources for multiple other kinds of improvements like new dungeons, new monsters, fixed interface, and fixed classes.

Personally, I think this is the first step towards implementing druids. An animal companion is integral to the druid class, and the current pet behavior is not up to the task of being a good pet. So what they can do is implement this portion of the druid class a little generically and make the henchman also. In addition they can release this feature of the druid class early as a something to help with the new player experience. I would not be surprised to see pets for rangers with this new AI, in addition maybe the iron companions will get an upgrade too.

Vordax

ArkoHighStar
08-15-2008, 09:17 PM
The word "again" is incorrect here, because it implies you are continuing something from earlier, which is not true.


If that's true, it doesn't change the fact that those features took limited resources away from other potential features.

Anything they do takes resources from something else, this is not a Turbine phenomenon. Everything is about allocation of resources, but you know as well as I do that the people doing AI work are not the same people who build dungeon landscapes and do story lines sotying them together so tghtly is a stretch at best.
Everything we say is speculative because we don't work for Turbine, and that is why I say "Again", because every time you make one of these statements you present your opinion as matter of fact, when it is no more valid or weighty than anyone elses.

A_D sometimes you have very valid points, and good ideas, but your presentation is all vinegar and no sugar, and you seem to go out of your way to demean others. Maybe you just don't see it, maybe you think that is the best way to get yout point accross, maybe you just don't care what other people think. I don't know.

QuantumFX
08-15-2008, 09:21 PM
Are we going to be able to name the henchmen? I need a bard named "Lackey' or a barbarian named "Decoy the Barbarian Hostage".

Rog
08-15-2008, 09:34 PM
I really hope this work outs. I think this could be really cool or a great source of pain for the turbine team. if this work the way you said it would then it will be somthing your praised for. if not i see the flame wars in my head melting the frozen dragons in tor. I know how much work codog put into the monk only to be flayed alive by the forums. i think he did a great job but you know how we are. here is hoping for the best and i hope we got a level cap and cool named loot to keep us happy then we can over look any bugs you might have till you can fix them p.
lunarsong

Geonis
08-15-2008, 10:08 PM
Already not liking this.

Even avoiding the ways this will cause inter-player problems (No, we don't need a caster, we have a Haste-Bot Henchman right here.), the time spent on development of this, should have been put into the things the current player-base has been asking for......


DRUIDS

HALF-ORCS

MORE SPELLS

MORE FEATS

FIGHTER SPECIALTIES

PALADIN/CLERIC SPECIALTIES




Seriously Turbine, you want to know why the player base continues to get smaller and smellr?

Keep ignoring your players, and eventually you might find out (when you are all employed somewhere else, and your new bosses explain how the customer/developer relationship is actually supposed to function).

It honestly boggles the mind where you folks keep coming up with new stuff nobody asked for, but refuse/fail to develop the things the players actually ask for over and over again.

Gum
08-15-2008, 10:10 PM
I like it.

Drider
08-15-2008, 10:15 PM
Already not liking this.

Even avoiding the ways this will cause inter-player problems (No, we don't need a caster, we have a Haste-Bot Henchman right here.), the time spent on development of this, should have been put into the things the current player-base has been asking for......


DRUIDS

HALF-ORCS

MORE SPELLS

MORE FEATS

FIGHTER SPECIALTIES

PALADIN/CLERIC SPECIALTIES




Seriously Turbine, you want to know why the player base continues to get smaller and smellr?

Keep ignoring your players, and eventually you might find out (when you are all employed somewhere else, and your new bosses explain how the customer/developer relationship is actually supposed to function).

It honestly boggles the mind where you folks keep coming up with new stuff nobody asked for, but refuse/fail to develop the things the players actually ask for over and over again.


Huh? I've seen alot of posts since DDO launched asking for stuff like henchman and followers. People have certainly asked for this sort of thing. Remember that if what they do is successful here, the tech they used to make it can be used in other areas as well. This new tech could lead to stuff like familiars, smarter summoned creatures, etc.

Geonis
08-15-2008, 10:22 PM
Huh? I've seen alot of posts since DDO launched asking for stuff like henchman and followers. People have certainly asked for this sort of thing. Remember that if what they do is successful here, the tech they used to make it can be used in other areas as well. This new tech could lead to stuff like familiars, smarter summoned creatures, etc.

I surf these forums about 40 hours a week (yeah, I have a job that allows that), and I could probably count on one hand the number of posts asking for henchmen..........no, I take that back, I don't ever remember seeing a single post asking for henchmen. There have been a few asking for Animal Companions/Familiars, which are completely different.

(Edit) And wouldn't take the place of a party member.

Bronko
08-15-2008, 11:12 PM
My reaction: You can't be serious? This is what is coming next?

My question: Why do people want henchmen? I assume this is going to be implemented like GuildWars. Henchmen even if gimped slightly are still likely to destroy grouping in this game. I see no reason for it. There is no shortage of classes currently (on my server at least). Why do we need henchmen? Maybe at some lower population point in the past people saw a need, but since January I have never waited more then 20 minutes for a group to fill with the necessary members to run it and usually the wait is far, far less.

My vote (counted or not): I vote to dump henchmen.

Well, coming from Lhazzar where a full group was a luxury and having a balance of classes was not always an option I welcome the idea. NPCs are a fundamental staple of the PnP version that every DM would throw in to ensure your gaming session could go forward in spite of a small group or any other unforeseen circumstances. I for one welcome the concept although I do reserve judgment until I see how they are implemented.

When I come online I want to play. Period. Waiting for someone to hit my LFM takes time from that. I'm looking forward to seeing what Turbine does with this concept.

Twerpp
08-15-2008, 11:26 PM
More is better, if you don't want henchman, I'm sure Turbine won't make you use them.

Pellegro
08-15-2008, 11:35 PM
I don't understand the "oh noes people will shortman quests complaints".

If people use henchies to shortman, that's good. It means either (a) they prefer henchies to real people or (b) there aren't enough real people to fill their groups doing the quests they want to do. Either way, its preferable that that person is now getting to play, instead of complaining about how bad nubs suck, or wishing they weren't in a group, or waiting around wasting 30 minutes instead of playing.

Most people I know take most pleasure in this game from grouping with their friends. Even the hardcore uber folks. They like to play b/c they like to get on the mic, adn BS, while killing stuff. For those folks, if their friends are on, they'll continue to group with them instead of a mindless NPC.

But when your friends aren't on, and you don't feel like pugging (for whatever reason - snob, introvert, no time, etc.) .... this is a great option.

Its also an obvious step towards addressing the horrid pet AI, a topic that Codog previously discussed as being an impediment to druids.

Its also an obvious head-nod towards console play ....

Remember, even if you don't particularly like a feature ... if it makes Turbine $$$ by attracting more players and increasing the revenue stream, that means more DEVs, more content, and a higher likelihood that the next feature WILL be something you like.

Vordax
08-16-2008, 12:52 AM
DRUIDS

HALF-ORCS

MORE SPELLS

MORE FEATS

FIGHTER SPECIALTIES

PALADIN/CLERIC SPECIALTIES




Again, I think this tech is also destined for use with the druid animal companions, so in effect they are working on one of your requests.

Vordax

sirgog
08-16-2008, 02:08 AM
They won't give it away, if they do. That's their loot.

I soooo want to see:

Cotara (Hireling) loots +5 Wounding Adamantine Rapier of Puncturing from the chest


or maybe, if they end up Raid-friendly:

Cotara (Hireling) loots +3 Manual of Bodily Health from the Warded Chest

Rog
08-16-2008, 02:32 AM
anything that adds to the game is a great thing we all wish they could do it faster i want a dev on haste but i also want killer content that works.
lunarsong

sirgog
08-16-2008, 02:55 AM
Here's how I'd like to see this system implemented.

Rather than choose a hireling from a list of available classes, instead you can choose a hireling from a list of descriptions of their party roles. For example, you might find the following three clerics (sorry about the terrible names):


La'Tila (Party Support Cleric)
La'Tila uses divine magic to help the rest of the party be the best they can - casting 'buff' spells on allies, healing wounded/poisoned/diseased/cursed allies without being asked, raising fallen allies on request and boosting allies' magical prowess with Divine Vitality on request. Elf Clr16.


Termox (Melee-Oriented Cleric)
Termox uses divine magic to turn himself into a potent melee combatant - using self-enhancing spells like Divine Favor and Divine Power. He will cast curative spells on himself automatically and on party members on request. Human Clr15/Ftr1


Cotara (Offensive Caster Cleric)
Cotara uses divine magic to smite foes - conjuring lethal storms of blades, firing devastating blasts of light, and holding foes in place with the power of the her deity. On request, she will cast curative spells on allies, or cast potent Symbol spells at the feet of allies. Drow Clr16



Or for Rogues:

Gnashblade (Sneaky Brute)
Gnashblade uses his stealth training and brute strength to sneak up to foes and unleash devastating sneak attacks with his rapier and dagger. On request, he will use his mediocre skills to disarm traps that the party has discovered, or to unlock locked doors and chests. Human Rog10/Rgr6


Forodil (Trapsmith)
Forodil is second to none amongst the mercenaries of Stormreach when it comes to detecting and disabling traps - and he'll do it automatically unless requested to leave a particular trap alone. In combat he will strike when he feels doing so is safe - sticking a knife in the back of foes from the shadows. Halfling Rog16.


Or for Bards:


Dreamspeaker (Spellsinger)
Dreamspeaker channels magic into her music, commanding foes to hold still or even fight alongside you, enhancing allies through the use of potent spells such as Greater Heroism, and, on request, using Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Heroics, Inspire Competence and the Spellsinger song to enhance one or all allies. Drow Brd16.


Obould Battlechanter (Warchanter)
Obould uses music and magic to enhance his own combat prowess (and that of allies upon request) before flying into a barbarian rage and throwing himself into battle. Due to Obould's limited uses of Barbarian Rage, he will only use it if brought to 50% health or less, or if requested to by party members. Orc Brd14/Bbn2 - why limit ourselves to playable races here...


These types of characters should have pretty bad gear for their levels, and should only get about half the benefits of any enhancements that a player making that build might take (so for instance, at level 16 Cotara may be wearing a +5 full plate, a +4 Wisdom item, an Improved Potency 6 item, and have only +20% to Healing spells from the Cleric enhancement lines rather than the typical 40%. A melee hireling might use a +5 weapon and carry a +2 transmuter as well for when that is needed). This would make the hirelings somewhat useful but less potent than having a real player in the party - keeping in line with DDO's general attitude of encouraging grouping with real players. However, due to general weaknesses in monster AI that I expect would extend to these hirelings, giving them inflated HP is probably not a bad idea at all.

This suggestion would allow players to experiment and experience what various character builds can add to a party, rather than simply carrying the trapsmith's soulstone to each trap, raising them, then having them die again in the next fight because they are too squishy. If players like the way a particular hireling aids their questing, then they might just have a new build idea.

winsom
08-16-2008, 03:24 AM
Please do not require a character feat in order to use this new henchman system. That would be like requiring a feat for us to do greensteel crafting and another feat to access the expanded enhancement system. Improvements and additions to the game's system should be available outside of the character-building process. These types of improvements should be enjoyed by all, including those character-builder players that don't have room in their builds for a henchman feat.

You could also include a "Leadership" feat that would improve these henchman, or maybe just improve the control of henchman and expanded itemization of henchman. This feat should not be required to make the henchman useful. It should be something extra similar to how the dragonmark feats are extra build options that are not perceived as obligatory towards making a good character build.

Venar
08-16-2008, 03:30 AM
I just fail to see how this was needed in any way.
I just can imagine the brainstorming session.

****
- Alright guys. Players are bored. We need some content. Anything to make em busy.
- How about new quest areas?
- We're trying, but it's too long to do each time, the players are growing restless. We need some system or goal to keep em playing.
- I know. I know. I GOT IT!!
- Do tell, my friend.
- HENCHMEN!
- Henchmen?
- HENCHMEEEEEEEN!!
- ?
- You know, Henchmen!
- ...
- :)
- You realise that not only will it be a nightmare to code, but it will also need us to review all quests to test the impact of henchmen, and it will increase lag, and that it doesn't solve the main issue!?
- Main issue?
- That players have nothing to do!
- Ah. Well, they can now do it with their henchmen!

smithers
08-16-2008, 03:36 AM
Yes, but they get annoyed if you call them "consorts".

The henchrobots, on the other hand, are used to the racism inherent in the system, so they won't complain about being called rust-monster-bait.
Henchwoman doesn't exactly roll off the tongue; how about "Wenchman"?
Honestly if I'm going to pay people to party with me I'm going for a gang of wenches.

Seriously though, I vote thumbs-up for henchmen, for the following reasons:


Clearly this work is part of a longer term plan to improve other aspects of the game (more useful summons, Druids as others have suggested) Even if you never hire a henchman this work will eventually provide other benefits.
I can also imagine how this opens up entirely new quest design options. Coyle 2.0 quests (meaning NPCs you meet in quest that are key to completion) could be really cool. And while party size remains at current limit, there is no reason why there couldn't be a quest/raid where each player is given an NPC to lead through a massive battle. I'm sure the Devs will be trying to make the most of the new mechanics and AI with upcoming content.
There are more players that Solo than is easily apparent. When I'm burnt on the game and don't feel like dealing with anyone I'll still logon and solo a quest from time to time. The biggest advanatage of soloing is that you can complete quests at your own pace, breaking for work or family committments. For anyone that has a hard time getting a full hour of uninterrupted play time this is a great addition.

winsom
08-16-2008, 03:51 AM
I think adding henchman to DDO is a good idea even though the occasional human will get denied a group because of it. I beleive that players develop reputations along with their characters and in doing so they should not often be replaced by AI henchman.


The main thing is, no matter how good the AI they give us. It still won't be as smart as a real human player.

Well.. I can think of some exceptions though. :D

You'd be surprised. Once I got good at playing with henchman in Guild Wars it became apparent that I could "solo" with them better than I could play with most humans that play the game. AI reaction time and predictability can be a real asset. Guild Wars allows 1 player to have up to 4 henchman though, so that made this "soloing" possible. I doubt that DDO will do that as it would ruin the grouping aspect of DDO. Few people group up in GW now. Perhaps 2 or 3 friends or guild mates playing together with enough henchman to fill up the party of 6 or 8.

raypal
08-16-2008, 03:51 AM
If you are playing Perma-Death and you die and your henchman doesn't, does he get all your stuff and gets to keep playing?

EKKM
08-16-2008, 08:34 AM
I just fail to see how this was needed in any way.
I just can imagine the brainstorming session.

****
- Alright guys. Players are bored. We need some content. Anything to make em busy.
- How about new quest areas?
- We're trying, but it's too long to do each time, the players are growing restless. We need some system or goal to keep em playing.
- I know. I know. I GOT IT!!
- Do tell, my friend.
- HENCHMEN!
- Henchmen?
- HENCHMEEEEEEEN!!
- ?
- You know, Henchmen!
- ...
- :)
- You realise that not only will it be a nightmare to code, but it will also need us to review all quests to test the impact of henchmen, and it will increase lag, and that it doesn't solve the main issue!?
- Main issue?
- That players have nothing to do!
- Ah. Well, they can now do it with their henchmen!

Try reading the newbie Q&A and various other threads where people have said they didnt become a member because it was not solo friendly. I know most of the capped raiding players think this is a waste of time. However, this means I will be able to log in for 30 minutes- 45 mins and complete a quest that I otherwise likely could not or would have have cost a fortune in pots.

BTW Guildwars uses a simialr mechanic, I hear its pretty popular.

VonBek
08-16-2008, 09:50 AM
Henchwoman doesn't exactly roll off the tongue; how about "Wenchman"?

Maybe it'd turn out like a drow Sorceress with the voice of a middle aged beer drinker & h***raiser. Oh, and sing old Aerosmith songs when not breathing heavily into the mic. :rolleyes:

EinarMal
08-16-2008, 09:54 AM
As someone who now just doesn't have a lot of time to play this is an awesome addition and will probably prevent me from canceling my subscription in a couple of weeks (which I was going to do).

I don't have more than 30-60 minutes to play, and soling past level 4 starts to get expensive without self healing (except pots).

This is the best addition to the game that I have seen in many many months....

Super Thumbs Up From Me!!!

Spisey
08-16-2008, 09:58 AM
Ooo does this mean I finally get a pocket bard to buff and haste me? Now that if an offer I can't pass up. :D

Samy
08-16-2008, 10:17 AM
This actually sounds pretty promising. I like to play wizards, and soloing them has been nigh impossible because quests almost require you to kill everything in your way and wizards simply don't have enough mana to kill everything solo.

If I can get a meat shield in front of me to kill some things, I can finally play my wizards more.

Kromize
08-16-2008, 10:39 AM
w00t true healing and haste bots!


:D

Xirxx
08-16-2008, 10:52 AM
I just got an email from Everquest stating that in their new expansion, they will have mercanaries and have a video up on their website.

akla_thornfist
08-16-2008, 10:55 AM
It seams that people are interested in the henchmen update if you look at the comments on the 3rd party websits alot of folks say they will reload the game, this is good news:)

Hafeal
08-16-2008, 03:33 PM
Hey.. If a 1 Int bat can open gates in Coalescence chamber, then I can only imagine the quality of my disposable hero :)

LOL. :D Although not intelligent, like pigeons, dogs, cats, etc., the bats can be trained to perform certain actions on a cue ... ;)

Ultimately, I can't see this feature being bad ... new features to the game are always better. I am sure there will be kinks to iron out. Overall, I expect henchmen to help people thru normal level quests and be much less useful at hard and elite because they will not be outfitted as the uber characters the rest of us are (no epics, no +5 mithril, etc ... and if they did have that equipment - I'd kill 'em to take it! :eek:)

salmag
08-16-2008, 04:47 PM
It seams that people are interested in the henchmen update if you look at the comments on the 3rd party websits alot of folks say they will reload the game, this is good news:)

But will those people that want henchmen SOOOO bad on those third party websites be interested in PUGGING with real people? Probably NOT. As someone said in an earlier thread, "Few people group up in Guild Wars now." That alone goes against a major premise of this game, which is supposed to encourage grouping up.

This idea is similar to the removing the WDA idea (not a good one, especially when the time and resources could have been used for other races and classes and more quests).

Korvek
08-16-2008, 04:53 PM
But will those people that want henchmen SOOOO bad on those third party websites be interested in PUGGING with real people? Probably NOT. As someone said in an earlier thread, "Few people group up in Guild Wars now." That alone goes against a major premise of this game, which is supposed to encourage grouping up.

Most people that currently PUG frequently will likely continue to do so. Those that shortman or only PUG rarely will also continue to do so, though the people shortmanning/soloing quests potentially will now use less resources depending on the means/cost of hiring these Henchmen.

Once again, I recommend a reservation of judgement on this until the effect it has on gameplay is actually visible and able to be analyzed. It could be extremely useful; it might not be.

ArkoHighStar
08-16-2008, 05:12 PM
Most people that currently PUG frequently will likely continue to do so. Those that shortman or only PUG rarely will also continue to do so, though the people shortmanning/soloing quests potentially will now use less resources depending on the means/cost of hiring these Henchmen.

Once again, I recommend a reservation of judgement on this until the effect it has on gameplay is actually visible and able to be analyzed. It could be extremely useful; it might not be.

Exactly, it is obvious that the current game setup is unfriendly to casual players who could solo with a henchman etc. The player base has dwindled to the people who keep playing because they are in guilds etc. And so we whine about the delayed dev cycle etc, well more subs means more money and more moeny means faster delivered content, and more interest by Turbine's exec's. So ifthis brings in a new kind ofplayer who doesn't group often and likes to play solo with a henchman, well his 15$ is just as good as mine, but now its 30$ because there are two if us.

DelverRootnose
08-16-2008, 05:19 PM
..the idea of henchmen if we get the Hench games here at DDO I should excell at the hench toss event and the hench baiting event and not do so bad in the Hench trap find and mop up event. Also only if we get Duct Tape as a clerical healing aid.

MysticTheurge
08-17-2008, 12:21 AM
As someone said in an earlier thread, "Few people group up in Guild Wars now." That alone goes against a major premise of this game, which is supposed to encourage grouping up.

Guild Wars is fundamentally different in that there are no limits on the number of henchmen you can bring along.

branmakmuffin
08-17-2008, 12:27 AM
I just fail to see how this was needed in any way.

[...]

- You realise that not only will it be a nightmare to code, but it will also need us to review all quests to test the impact of henchmen, and it will increase lag, and that it doesn't solve the main issue!?
- Main issue?
- That players have nothing to do!
- Ah. Well, they can now do it with their henchmen!
As others have stated (or at least implied) the players who have nothing to do are the ones who have obsessively played to the point where they have 10 capped 1750 favor characters on each server. Those who enjoy a more leisurely pace still have plenty to do.

Borror0
08-17-2008, 12:37 AM
As others have stated (or at least implied) the players who have nothing to do are the ones who have obsessively played to the point where they have 10 capped 1750 favor characters on each server. Those who enjoy a more leisurely pace still have plenty to do.

So, you're saying that Turbine shouldn't strive to keep their customers playing?

Venar
08-17-2008, 01:09 AM
You know Borr, i'm starting to think that.
And i can't blame them

I am bored. Turbine has 2 choices.
1- Try to keep me, thus making new content. I will chew it up in 2 weeks, get bored after a month and complain again.
2- Screw it, get a new player instead, who will have tons to do and pay to play and be satisfied for a year.

So, i guess, from a $$ point of view, you are better off losing all your vets for new players.

Doomcrew
08-17-2008, 01:17 AM
Will the hench-peeps all wear red jerseys and answer to "ensign"?

Most of my new builds all solo to aprox. 3rd level while I decide I haven't messed up the build.
But the earlier post, humanoid type hench-peeps would be fun. To make them suited to
the quest (line) would be an RP bonus. (gnolls in the desert, hobgoblins in TR) A kobold named
Deekin ........ Priceless

Cheers

Borror0
08-17-2008, 01:39 AM
So, i guess, from a $$ point of view, you are better off losing all your vets for new players.

You're right, but there are two important thnigs to consider:

Experienced players are good for the health of the game
There is no way you can just keep finding new players to replace the older players

You know, a player leaving ****ed off by the way Turbine runs the game is going to scare players away.

A player who is happy of the way Turbine runs this game will bring new players over: friends, classmates, co-workers, family, etc. It is a lie to say "Turbine can't keep up with powergamers". I think most powergamers will run a quest many, many times before getting tired of it. Just think about how many Shroud completions you got on all your toons. 100? 200? Do you still run it? Do you still enjoy playing?

Thing is, they need to do more than what they have given us in the last 2-3 modules.

If they continue that way, they are going to loose a lot.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-17-2008, 06:16 AM
Will the hench-peeps all wear red jerseys and answer to "ensign"?

No, they are next gen henchmen, they wear gold jerseys and answer to ensign.

Hvymetal
08-17-2008, 07:17 AM
For myself I am waiting to reserve judgement, not on the henchmen, because honestly I could care less about them one way or the other.

I am getting bored, fast, I hate running the same quests over and over, same reason I never got rich because I can't stand loot runs for any length of time. These last couple of mods have been great for new players, great for people that only play for a little each day. I never considered myself to be a powergamer but in these two + years I have found myself going from playing 4+ hours on my weekends and at least 2 hours a day on workdays down to where I might now log on and check the AH and maybe run 1 quest then log off bored.

For some people this is great news, good I am happy for you, for others like myself, we are worried that due to the lack of news and information that we are looking at another content light mod with 2 choices, grind the same ole stuff over again or cancel.

So I am going to reserve judgement till I see what else is coming out (and to be honest it looks like I may not be finding out much until it goes live).

Torosar
08-17-2008, 07:18 AM
A concern / question i have -

In the quests Let Sleeping Dust Lie and Slavers of the Shreiking Mines there is an objective in which you have to specifically not kill a certain type of monster, the former being spiders.. the latter being the wildmen miners.

Will henchmen in these quests know not to attack these certain monsters where if they did it could potentially fail the quest on behalf of the party?

Ustice
08-17-2008, 07:41 AM
Gret question. I would hope that they can't even accidentally hurt these types of NPCs. You can add to that the Giant Shamans in Madstone.

Also, is Coyle and his friends getting this update?

Venar
08-17-2008, 09:00 AM
That is why i dont like this idea much.
You need not only a solid A.I, but you need to to test it in every single quest of the game, and many times too, to cover various scenarios.
Will they split Oozes? Break Hypnotise? Break crates with mobs in them? Get out of the way of purple balls?
Consider the huge success of the AI on pets, mobs, and NPC, this henchmen thing really scares me. A Pandora's box of nightmare?
It's strange to hear that the team that can't fix Haverdasher's basement is working on Henchmen...

Grinndal
08-17-2008, 09:12 AM
but since January I have never waited more then 20 minutes for a group to fill with the necessary members to run it and usually the wait is far, far less.


You must always play at peak times. Sometimes at 2am or later for us second shifters the groups can take a while to fill.
Not saying I agree with the idea just think you should keep an open mind and see how it is implemented.

branmakmuffin
08-17-2008, 10:04 AM
So, you're saying that Turbine shouldn't strive to keep their customers playing?
Do they have unlimited resources to do whatever it takes to bring in the new and keep the 2-week cappers happy? If they don't they have to choose.


I never considered myself to be a powergamer but in these two + years I have found myself going from playing 4+ hours on my weekends and at least 2 hours a day on workdays down to where I might now log on and check the AH and maybe run 1 quest then log off bored.
And until you do actually cancel, Turbine doesn't give a hoot, because you pay the same fee whether you play 12 hours a day or 12 hours a month.

Borror0
08-17-2008, 11:17 AM
Do they have unlimited resources to do whatever it takes to bring in the new and keep the 2-week cappers happy? If they don't they have to choose.

Do you think you can keep in bringing new customers and not worry about players leaving?

debo
08-17-2008, 11:51 AM
That is why i dont like this idea much.
You need not only a solid A.I, but you need to to test it in every single quest of the game, and many times too, to cover various scenarios.
Will they split Oozes? Break Hypnotise? Break crates with mobs in them? Get out of the way of purple balls?
Consider the huge success of the AI on pets, mobs, and NPC, this henchmen thing really scares me. A Pandora's box of nightmare?
It's strange to hear that the team that can't fix Haverdasher's basement is working on Henchmen...

totally agree and well said

Turial
08-17-2008, 11:52 AM
Exactly, it is obvious that the current game setup is unfriendly to casual players who could solo with a henchman etc. ....

We will see if Henchmen help with this aspect. If the henchmen are like the guy from the 12, that you help in ritual sacrifice, then yes it could help some people "solo" in DDO. Time will tell with this as it has with all other aspects of the game.

branmakmuffin
08-17-2008, 12:05 PM
Do you think you can keep in bringing new customers and not worry about players leaving?
What will happen if you and I keep trading rhetorical questions?

ArkoHighStar
08-17-2008, 12:06 PM
That is why i dont like this idea much.
You need not only a solid A.I, but you need to to test it in every single quest of the game, and many times too, to cover various scenarios.
Will they split Oozes? Break Hypnotise? Break crates with mobs in them? Get out of the way of purple balls?
Consider the huge success of the AI on pets, mobs, and NPC, this henchmen thing really scares me. A Pandora's box of nightmare?
It's strange to hear that the team that can't fix Haverdasher's basement is working on Henchmen...

they are valid concerns, and I for one would rather they figure out the quirks with henchman,than try to introduce when animal companions are added. And haverdashers has been fixed and will be in 7.01.
The thing is the game needed these changes to help it survive, the problem is that we have had to bit the bullet on content for mod 6-7 to for them to get all this done. If mod 8 has the full crafting that they promised then the content quantity will be a little less of an issue, as we will at least have some goals to grind out while we wait for the big jump with mod 9.

But thta all said now that turbine has redone all the lower level stuff, and given something for new players to hold onto. They need to al least comeout with some kind of statement like say a State of the game address, that lets players now that the focus is back on content

ShaeNightbird
08-17-2008, 12:07 PM
What will happen if you and I keep trading rhetorical questions?

You'll have to start printing rhetorical question bubble gum cards.

branmakmuffin
08-17-2008, 12:10 PM
You'll have to start printing rhetorical question bubble gum cards.
Dang, you should have phrased that in the form of a question?

ShaeNightbird
08-17-2008, 12:12 PM
Dang, you should have phrased that in the form of a question?

If you were to start printing rhetorical question bubble gum cards, would that in itself be questionable?

Nightbird's Roadkill Pizza. We deliver.

Borror0
08-17-2008, 12:14 PM
What will happen if you and I keep trading rhetorical questions?

What do you have against rhetorical questions?

ShaeNightbird
08-17-2008, 12:19 PM
What do you have against rhetorical questions?

More than likely a much better arsenal.

Sharzade
08-17-2008, 12:30 PM
My ingame buddies and I quite like the Henchmen idea. We were chatting last night, and figure it'll be useful for when we're shortmanning stuff while levelling new characters. We'd be keen on hiring a cleric or bard! I'm thinking about those times when there aren't enough clerics to go round. Thus far, we've generally been doing without.

Anyway, it sounds like the new Mod has something for new and old players. I play a lot (since Beta) and am not bored yet; I work on new characters at times, or improve old ones at others (need many more Shrouds to get cool Greensteel items/weapons on all my mains). Players who have a larger appetite for new content could always play standalone games or play a second MMO for inbetween times. I'm pretty sure that the DDO game company does as much as it can with the resources it has to create what its market research says is needed for the game.

Anyway, back to the Henchmen topic; I like it. It's helpful for times when certain classes aren't available. :)

Cheers,

Sharzade
;)
:D
:p

moorewr
08-17-2008, 12:45 PM
On Behalf of the Stormreach Clerics Guild, Local 101

Ahem.

I think we know Exactly who this Hireling business is aimed at. Or should I say "scabs." We Will Not Have It. Oh, you may like hiring cut-rate hireling "heal bots" in the short run, but don't forget that every player cleric you used to support is a customer in Stormreach's shops.. our children play with yours in the Founder's Fountain. If we loose our jobs, you lose more than neighbors: you lose high-quality locally made healing,

Clerics! Be ready to strike for your rights! People of Stormreach! Reject shoddy foreign mass-produced healing!

Strykersz
08-17-2008, 12:48 PM
So do our henchman have infinite mana?

cbj192
08-17-2008, 01:08 PM
People keep saying henchmen but they call them Hirelings

No matter

As much of a good idea I think this is going to be I just know that there will be endless complaints about the AI. There are going to be bugs but in a few mods time I'm sure the kinks will be worked out.

Also I'm pretty sure that as of the interview Kate said that only fighters, clerics and wizards were available. Maybe rouges. They are not sure if they could include that class and still make the projected due date.

I'm sure we all could make due with just those classes being for hire for awhile.

ShaeNightbird
08-17-2008, 02:58 PM
On Behalf of the Stormreach Clerics Guild, Local 101

Ahem.

I think we know Exactly who this Hireling business is aimed at. Or should I say "scabs." We Will Not Have It. Oh, you may like hiring cut-rate hireling "heal bots" in the short run, but don't forget that every player cleric you used to support is a customer in Stormreach's shops.. our children play with yours in the Founder's Fountain. If we loose our jobs, you lose more than neighbors: you lose high-quality locally made healing,

Clerics! Be ready to strike for your rights! People of Stormreach! Reject shoddy foreign mass-produced healing!

Accept no substitutes! Hear hear!

branmakmuffin
08-17-2008, 04:39 PM
What do you have against rhetorical questions?
What does anyone have against rhetorical questions?

Borror0
08-17-2008, 04:41 PM
What does anyone have against rhetorical questions?

Why do you try to change the topic?

ShaeNightbird
08-17-2008, 04:46 PM
What does anyone have against rhetorical questions?

Like, you know, they're just so....rhetorical, you know?

branmakmuffin
08-17-2008, 05:12 PM
Like, you know, they're just so....rhetorical, you know?
Does anyone really know?

ShaeNightbird
08-17-2008, 05:14 PM
Does anyone really know?

Does everyone really know? And if they did, would they really know or would they just really think they know?