PDA

View Full Version : Unrestricted dragonmarks should look aberrant



Angelus_dead
08-15-2008, 01:07 AM
Come on devs, don't completely throw out the constraints of the Eberron setting. If you're allowing any race to get any kind of dragonmark, at least make sure it looks like a random "aberrant" squiggle, and doesn't copy the look of a Jorasco mark on non-halfling, or things of that nature.

Lol oops, that's happening to the PnP eberron book in 4th ed... well, at least 4e isn't nuking the campaign setting to the extent that Forgotten Realms has been completely flattened.

Angelus_dead
08-15-2008, 01:10 AM
PS. It's also been announced a while ago that 4th edition D&D warforged will be vulnerable to poison and disease, and their fortification will only work once per encounter. That sounds sad- throwing away a lot of flavor in the name of balance.

Drider
08-15-2008, 01:18 AM
4th edition doesn't even feel like D&D to me anymore, its more like WoW the RPG.

Uska
08-15-2008, 01:28 AM
Come on devs, don't completely throw out the constraints of the Eberron setting. If you're allowing any race to get any kind of dragonmark, at least make sure it looks like a random "aberrant" squiggle, and doesn't copy the look of a Jorasco mark on non-halfling, or things of that nature.

Lol oops, that's happening to the PnP eberron book in 4th ed... well, at least 4e isn't nuking the campaign setting to the extent that Forgotten Realms has been completely flattened.

What you mean allowing unrestricted dragonmarks and allowing WF to be diseaed and poisoned isnt as bad they are changing eberon way to much. I tried to be pro 4E before and ran a gameday but the more I look at my books and think about them the more I hate them. I will Proably go about running a modified 1st ed game I like the 3.0-3.5 ac system and will use that as well as the missing healing spells and spontanous casting for clerics but otherwise it will be 1st ed all the way.

Uska
08-15-2008, 01:29 AM
PS. It's also been announced a while ago that 4th edition D&D warforged will be vulnerable to poison and disease, and their fortification will only work once per encounter. That sounds sad- throwing away a lot of flavor in the name of balance.

I agree they are killing the game I love.

Drider
08-15-2008, 01:29 AM
What you mean allowing unrestricted dragonmarks and allowing WF to be diseaed and poisoned isnt as bad they are changing eberon way to much. I tried to be pro 4E before and ran a gameday but the more I look at my books and think about them the more I hate them. I will Proably go about running a modified 1st ed game I like the 3.0-3.5 ac system and will use that as well as the missing healing spells and spontanous casting for clerics but otherwise it will be 1st ed all the way.


My group still plays 2nd edition. :)

Uska
08-15-2008, 02:17 AM
My group still plays 2nd edition. :)


2nd is ok and the other gm in our group uses it but I prefer 1st

Noctus
08-15-2008, 07:40 AM
4th edition doesn't even feel like D&D to me anymore, its more like WoW the RPG.


Yeah, the typical D&D feeling for me is gone with 4E. 3.X was an evolution of 2nd, but 4th imho could also be called MarketingKid-Simplefast-RPG-System.
My group stays 3.5, and we also give The Black Eye a shot.

Aspenor
08-15-2008, 08:28 AM
Lol oops, that's happening to the PnP eberron book in 4th ed... well, at least 4e isn't nuking the campaign setting to the extent that Forgotten Realms has been completely flattened.

4 E is nothing more than a money grab to try and sell more books to the hardcores.

I will be ignoring its existence....

Vizzini
08-15-2008, 12:13 PM
Don't Like it go rant on Keith Bakers Livejournal, It dosen't hurt to have an in with the creator of the campaign setting:
http://gloomforge.livejournal.com/


PS. It's also been announced a while ago that 4th edition D&D warforged will be vulnerable to poison and disease, and their fortification will only work once per encounter. That sounds sad- throwing away a lot of flavor in the name of balance.

That being said here's what Keith reports on WF in 4th Edition:


The warforged are an iconic part of Eberron, and one that's very important to me. They are a symbol both of the impact war has had on the world, and of the way in which magic is incorporated from all walks of life, from communication and transportation to warfare. And they play a special role in the aftermath of the war, being symbols of battle in a world trying to forget the conflict - living weapons who now have to find new paths to walk in a (somewhat) peaceful world.

Now the warforged have appeared in 4th Edition D&D. Basic statistics for the warforged can be found in the Monster Manual However, if you have any interest in using warforged as PCs in your campaign, I urge you to skip over this completely and go straight to the recent article in the online Dragon magazine, available as a free PDF at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080606bhttp://i.ixnp.com/images/v3.43/t.gif (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080606b) . There are a number of big differences, in addition to racial feats, paragon paths, and components.

Warforged have undergone a few major changes in some areas, and remained the same in others. I wanted to touch on a few of the key points.

Loss of Immunities. The warforged of 3.5 have a laundry list of immunities. They cannot be poisoned, cannot be paralyzed, and the list goes on and on. The warforged of 4E lack this blanket resistance. They CAN be poisoned, and yes, they can catch diseases. In this, 4E is playing a little more to the idea that warforged are living constructs. In the case of something like a disease, as a writer I envision a warforged suffering different symptoms than a human would from the same disease; his fibrous tendrils become pale and oily, or his leather components begin to rot as the lifeforce that normally maintains them begins to fade. It's stupid to imagine that a warforged would get a sore throat - but a warforged might suffer other equally debilitating effects from the flu that are unique to warforged physiology.

With all that said, warforged are not immune to disease or poison. But they are resistant to both of these and more. Warforged receive a +2 bonus to Endurance (on top of a +2 Constitution) and a +2 to saving throws versus any sort of ongoing damage - which can include poison, but also being set on fire, struck by acid, affected by a life draining attack, some mental attacks, and so on. They also receive a bonus to Will defense - so while not immune to mental powers, they are resistant to them.

It's a step down from blanket immunity, but it still preserves the idea that they are BETWEEN human and construct... that they are not immune to the things that trouble humans, but they are resistant to them.

Warforged cannot starve, suffocate, or suffer from thirst. Some people have been confused by the statement "You do not need to eat, drink, or breathe, but this does not render you immune to any effects." I spoke with WotC designers to get this cleared up, and the point is that you are immune to mundane consequences of not eating, drinking, or breathing (as described on page 159 of the DMG). This does not provide you with immunity to any combat power or effect which is simply described in such a way as to imply breathing is involved. For example, if the bugbear strangler uses his "strangle" power on you, you can't say "I don't breath - wouldn't that have no effect?" In your case, he's actually ripping your throat apart instead of squeezing the life out of you.

So: as a warforged you CAN be affected by the bugbear strangler, the stinking cloud, or for that matter, by drinking a potion. But you cannot die of thirst, feel hunger, or drown due to simple submersion in water.

Warforged do not sleep. While it's unclear in the MM entry, the Dragon article specifies that warforged simply require a four hour "period of low exertion" to gain the benefits of an extended rest, and that during this time they are fully aware of their surroundings. So your warforged can still stand sentry over his sleeping comrades, wondering what dreams are like as he sharpens his sword.

No more repair. Healing has undergone massive changes in 4E; in general, characters bounce back more quickly than they used to. Hit points are more about your resolve and ability to stay on your feet than a literal percentage of the physical damage you have suffered. Thus, the Warforged Resolve racial power, which reflects an inhuman ability to ignore pain and keep going... and the warlord's Inspiring Word, which is more of a rallying cry than a physical healing effect. So healing has become broader - and warforged heal like everyone else. Personally, I'd still add warforged flavor to this. For example, you get all your hit points restored after an extended rest. For a human, than means sleeping and waking refreshed. For the warforged, I'd certainly TALK about him hammering out dents and patching breaks; essentially, he's still using Craft to repair himself, there's just no roll required to do it.

No natural weapon. The key here is that ANYONE can do lethal damage with an unarmed attack. If you want the feeling of the character with extra-deadly fists, get a morningstar attached to your arm (the article talks about how to do that).

Warforged and armor. This is probably the biggest change for me. in 4E, warforged can acquire and wear armor just like humans do. Why did this happen? Why take out the old-fashioned warforged body feats? Well, there's lots of reasons.
1. Armor proficiencies are very different in 4E. Instead of all being proficient with all heavy armor, the cleric, fighter, and paladin are all proficient with different levels of heavy armor. So if you have a feat that gives, say, a +7 AC, the cleric wins, the paladin loses, and the fighter is exactly where he'd normally be.

2. Likewise, there's no spell failure; it's simply a question of whether you are capable of wearing the armor. So a wizard COULD wear plate armor - but it would take the expenditure of five feats and meeting lots of prereqs to do it. If the warforged wizard could jump there, it would be a huge boon.

3. It eliminates the issue of "I wanna kill the warforged and take his adamantine and sell it and make 10,000 gp!!!"

4. And it deals with the problem of finding the really cool piece of armor - and you can't wear it.

5. Warforged no longer HAVE to give up a feat at first level to get decent armor.

So there's a few of the things the designers had in mind. People ask what the "naked warforged" looks like; in my opinion, it just looks like a smaller warforged. The Dragon article offers is a more comprehensive system for attached warforged components - so you may not have an adamantine body, but your armor is bonded with you and cannot be removed unless you allow it. And when you detached the armor component, you've still got metal and leather plates; just less bulky, and not enough to provide significant protection against attack.

I understand the design reasons behind this decision, and I like the new component system. In my mind, the warforged emerged from the forge with appropriate armor components already in place; while they CAN remove those components to upgrade, for most this would be akin to the idea of a human stripping away his own skin. It won't actually harm them, but to them, the armor component is more than just a tool; it's part of their body.

At least, that's how I'm running it.

However, if you really, really want that idea of the warforged who simply has no choice in the matter - the 'forged who cannot take his armor off even if he wants - here's an option I was toying with a little while back. This requires the expenditure of that feat, but provides the PC with a +1 AC to compensate - which also helps if you're trying to capture that "juggernaut" feeling at low level. Bear in mind that this is ENTIRELY unofficial, and I don't even know if I'll use it in my campaign; it's just something to consider if you want an alternative.

New Heroic Tier Feat: Armored Body
Prerequisite: Warforged
Effect: Choose an armor type that you are proficient in. Your body takes on the characteristics of that armor, including armor class, restrictions to movement, and skill checks penalties. You gain an additional +1 racial bonus to AC. You may enchant your body as if it were armor of this type. Alternately, you may use the Enchant Item ritual to bond an existing piece of armor to your body. This replaces any previous armor or enchantments; if an enchantment was present, you receive 1/5th its value in residuum when the ritual is completed. Bonding armor does not remove your racial AC bonus.

Regardless of the type of armor you choose, your body has a metallic appearance. Light armored warforged are lithe and flexible, while heavy armored warforged are bulky and solid.

Special: After selecting this feat, you cannot wear armor (unless you bond it using Enchant Item).

Again, this is just something I've been knocking around the last few months. Having seen the system for attaching armor, I actually think I'm perfectly happy with that; the poet COULD take off his plate, but it would be like cutting off his hand; he can't imagine life without his armor, even if it's possible. But if you want another option, here's an unofficial one to consider.

Riggs
08-15-2008, 04:33 PM
Parts of 4th edition looked cool at first.

Then after crunching some numbers, and looking at how it might play out at high levels, not so much.

Half the game is now about trying to get opportunity attacks, almost all of the combat feats ONLY affect opportunity attacks. No more dodge, no more weapon focus, no more extra attacks with 2 weapons - but hey you can get all those if you spend feats....but only for opportunity attacks.

A high level wizard encounters 2 monsters, nearly the same size. Throws his dagger at one, does 2 points of damage - kills the level 25 monster - because it was a 'minion', and minions only have 1 hp. Then he unloads every single encounter and daily power on the other one, and after 8 rounds and every single power gone except magic missle - well the monster is now at half hit points maybe. So much for the high level wizard. A level 30 fighter might have 200 hit points. A level 30 monster might have 500-800 hit points, and over a 1000 if it is larger than mansized...enjoy using those 'at will powers' doing 2d8 +6 for 50 rounds. Hmm nothing like rolling dice for 3 hours to kill one monster.

Almost ALL flavor is gone - all races are equal, not one has any penalties for anything, and no one gets any really good bonuses either. "Hey my warforged just got syphlis!!" Lame.

Players get half their level as an adder..to everything. To hit, ac, saves, initiative, skills...but monsters get their full level. So unless players are carting around the +6 plate, godplate for +20 not regular plate for +14, and a +6 shield- every monster at high levels will be hitting that fighter pretty much 75-90% of the time. So much for ac. Magic items are totally stripped of real powers. "Hey a level 20 wand of shield..than can give me shield...for 1.5 rounds...once per day....awesome" And you can ONLY use ONE daily power on magic items..per day, not per item, so you have 10 items? You get to use one. Enjoy.

Played a group for the first time in years to try out 4th ed. Low levels are fun. But high levels will just get pretty stupid.

Back to the house rules.

Issip
08-15-2008, 04:45 PM
Warforged catching a disease - there's a lot of BS explanation but I don't see it at all. I could see them adding different diseases and poisons that affect only WF, but catching a human disease? Gimme a break. They should rename warforged "HardToHealGiantApeThings" as the whole construct concept is now completely undermined.