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KKDragonLord
08-13-2008, 04:00 PM
Hey guys
i play a WF pure Pally and i've been thinking on what to make as a Shroud Weapon

so far i've come up with 2 builds, now im wondering which will be best, i've done some math but nothing conclusive, what do you guys think?

Celestial Fury (Greatsword/end strength unbuffed:30)
+4 Insight AC
Good Burst (+1d6 vs nongood +3d6 on crits)
Shock +1d6 electric Damage
Special Effect: Lightning Strike (625 avg eletric dmg 2-3% of hits)
x2 charges of Chain Lightning lvl 16

Brutal Wilting(greatsword)
+1 Exceptional Strength
+2 Exceptional Strength (end strength unbuffed:34)
+1 Insight AC
Special Effect: Corrosive Salt (four ticks of 75 avg untyped dmg)
x2 charges of Horrid Wilting lvl 16

Also if you guys think you got a better dps Greatsword build id love to hear it

(obs: im not so interested in transmuting since ive got my holy sword, maybe later on ill make a transmuter.)

BattleCircle
08-13-2008, 04:07 PM
My suggestion... plan on a great axe, the greatsword pretty much sucks... that said lightning strike is nice and it really does great damage on orthons, not so much anything else.... best bet that I have seen so far is mineral II.... but its your ingrediants

juniorpfactors
08-13-2008, 04:19 PM
great axe...are 10% more swings

jrp

KKDragonLord
08-13-2008, 04:19 PM
why you say that lightning strike will mostly only work on orthons?
are so many enemies immune to eletric?
what i was thinking was that even if a good number of enemies have even 30 resist to eletric about 595 dmg would still go through so it wouldnt matter much

and, about mineral 2 being the complete bestest of the best, im not convinced about it, you got some numbers to back it?

(as a side note, im not interested in greataxes, my smites appreciate the better crit range and i have a personal preference for greatswords since its a part of my character concept.)

HumanJHawkins
08-13-2008, 04:21 PM
My suggestion... plan on a great axe, the greatsword pretty much sucks... that said lightning strike is nice and it really does great damage on orthons, not so much anything else.... best bet that I have seen so far is mineral II.... but its your ingrediants

For a non-dwarf, Greatsword has better DPS than a Great Axe. (Or did they nerf the greensteel Great Sword or something... I have one of each in my bank, so I'll look tonight.)

There are enough things in the game with at least some DR, that it is very difficult to beat the Transmuting effect that is only available on Mineral II. So, if you are going to burn 24 larges on a tier 3, that's what I would go with. That said, many go for the lightning thing... 600 in one occasional hit makes up for a lot.

Finally, I don't think your Corrosive Salt thing is bad... multiple hits of 75 untyped (i.e. not resistible or DR-able) damage is a very nice effect.

Cheers!

KKDragonLord
08-13-2008, 05:38 PM
There are enough things in the game with at least some DR, that it is very difficult to beat the Transmuting effect that is only available on Mineral II. So, if you are going to burn 24 larges on a tier 3, that's what I would go with. That said, many go for the lightning thing... 600 in one occasional hit makes up for a lot.


Thx for the nice reply HJH i am thinking of not making a transmuter because i can cast holy sword and that works on almost everything that has byeshk/silver/cold iron DRs, i plan on getting an adamantine or transmuter of G.construct bane for those dudes but im making up for it quite nicely with my kukri of smiting+improved crit slash. All in all though m not familiar with the mobs in the Shroud since i cant run it yet, are there many enemies with DR that the Holy Sword wont match up against?

nbhs275
08-13-2008, 06:47 PM
Thx for the nice reply HJH i am thinking of not making a transmuter because i can cast holy sword and that works on almost everything that has byeshk/silver/cold iron DRs, i plan on getting an adamantine or transmuter of G.construct bane for those dudes but im making up for it quite nicely with my kukri of smiting+improved crit slash. All in all though m not familiar with the mobs in the Shroud since i cant run it yet, are there many enemies with DR that the Holy Sword wont match up against?

heres the reason why you should make a mineral II weapon. Its a +5 acid good burst xyz transmuter. That means there isnt a single mob in the game it doesnt work well against. It will outdamage the average bane weapon, and is far superior to the holy sword. This means you dont need a blunt dps, a piercing or slashing dps, just that weapon. It covers probably 3/4 of all the weaponsets everyone uses/carries.

Angelus_dead
08-13-2008, 06:54 PM
For a non-dwarf, Greatsword has better DPS than a Great Axe. (Or did they nerf the greensteel Great Sword or something... I have one of each in my bank, so I'll look tonight.)
Why do you think a GS would beat a GA? Are you including the Warforged +1 attack bonus? Even that probably won't be enough to compensate for the lower rate of attacks. They both do 3d6 base damage.

It's true that depending on the magic enhancements, a sword could gain more benefit. For example, the burst portion of Good Burst is 3d6 from swords but 4d6 from axes, even though the sword triggers the burst twice as often (on 20% of attacks instead of 10% of attacks).

The general answer is that Greataxe is best, followed by Falchion or Maul depending, followed by Greatsword and staff.

KKDragonLord
08-13-2008, 07:19 PM
3d6
+5
+1d6 acid except for immunities
+1d6 good
+3d6 good on crits
vs
2d6
+5
+2d6 good vs Evil
+3d6 on crits

i seriously dont see much difference there
especially since Holy Sword doesnt cost me anything.

Angelus_dead
08-13-2008, 07:24 PM
3d6
+5
+1d6 acid except for immunities
+1d6 good
+3d6 good on crits
Normally people get 2d6 holy as tier 1, and put acid on tier 2.

nbhs275
08-13-2008, 07:54 PM
3d6
+5
+1d6 acid except for immunities
+1d6 good
+3d6 good on crits
vs
2d6
+5
+2d6 good vs Evil
+3d6 on crits

i seriously dont see much difference there
especially since Holy Sword doesnt cost me anything.

are you getting say +4 ac, transmuting , and slicing?

HumanJHawkins
08-13-2008, 09:48 PM
Why do you think a GS would beat a GA? Are you including the Warforged +1 attack bonus? Even that probably won't be enough to compensate for the lower rate of attacks. They both do 3d6 base damage.

It's true that depending on the magic enhancements, a sword could gain more benefit. For example, the burst portion of Good Burst is 3d6 from swords but 4d6 from axes, even though the sword triggers the burst twice as often (on 20% of attacks instead of 10% of attacks).

The general answer is that Greataxe is best, followed by Falchion or Maul depending, followed by Greatsword and staff.

First, I am not sure there is really any difference (anymore, if ever) in attack speed. Of course there is no official difference, but there are claims of a bug related to animation speed. Well, as of Mod 7, I have often seen numbers pop up *before* any animation. So if animation was getting in the way, I am not sure this hasn't been fixed.

But, assume for a minute that it is still bugged. The reported difference is something like 86 swings per minute vs. 90 swings per minute. About 4.5%. And yet, according to your own info, the greatsword is going to be criting 10% more often. And, if you ever get into a situation where you hit on a 3 and over instead of a 2 and over, then the attack speed difference is wiped out by the added +1 to attack.

I haven't played a Warforged far enough in to know what the enhancements are, but where there is a +1 attack, there is usually a +2 damage enhancement. Not sure if that applies here, but that would easily push it over the top.

Final note: In raw numbers in an unbugged situation, the Great Sword beats the Graat Axe by a slight margin anyway (at typical end game "to hit" and STR mods) due to the crit range. So in addition to the above info, there is another tiny margin the GAxe would have to overcome. Dwarven enhancements push the GAxe way over the top. But in their absense, GSword is as good or better.

HumanJHawkins
08-13-2008, 09:52 PM
Thx for the nice reply HJH i am thinking of not making a transmuter because i can cast holy sword and that works on almost everything that has byeshk/silver/cold iron DRs, i plan on getting an adamantine or transmuter of G.construct bane for those dudes but im making up for it quite nicely with my kukri of smiting+improved crit slash. All in all though m not familiar with the mobs in the Shroud since i cant run it yet, are there many enemies with DR that the Holy Sword wont match up against?

If Holy Sword gets through Silver AND Goog DR at the same time, then it would be sweet in the shroud. Cheers!

Twerpp
08-13-2008, 09:56 PM
I dont think the mineral II is any better for the boss devils than a good transmuter...so its not my favorite. Theres so many more interesting and visually entertaining dual shards to build...and if your a 2h WF you gotta ask what the 4 ac is really doing for you vs those pit fiends.

Angelus_dead
08-13-2008, 10:03 PM
And yet, according to your own info, the greatsword is going to be criting 10% more often.
Well no, that's not how math expressions works. The GS will crit twice as much, or 100% more often. That's just a technicality.

However, a sword's advantage in amount of crits is usually completely negated by the more damaging crits from an axe. That's not true if you have effects which don't scale linearly with crit mult -1, which may or may not be the case.


I haven't played a Warforged far enough in to know what the enhancements are, but where there is a +1 attack, there is usually a +2 damage enhancement. Not sure if that applies here, but that would easily push it over the top.
No, there is no damage enhancement. The enhancement is viewable on the character sheet of any paladin or cleric, regardless of race.


Final note: In raw numbers in an unbugged situation, the Great Sword beats the Graat Axe by a slight margin anyway (at typical end game "to hit" and STR mods) due to the crit range.
No, not unless you have a nonlinearly-scaled crit damage bonus.

KKDragonLord
08-13-2008, 11:33 PM
Well no, that's not how math expressions works. The GS will crit twice as much, or 100% more often. That's just a technicality.

However, a sword's advantage in amount of crits is usually completely negated by the more damaging crits from an axe. That's not true if you have effects which don't scale linearly with crit mult -1, which may or may not be the case.

No, there is no damage enhancement. The enhancement is viewable on the character sheet of any paladin or cleric, regardless of race.

No, not unless you have a nonlinearly-scaled crit damage bonus.

All good points Angelus
either way this argument is moot since i believe the Greatsword to be a much superior weapon to greataxe +10% speed or not, simply because of better crit range and what that can do for Smites, maybe a falchion would be even better, but im not as fond of those as i am of greatswords.
Either way i have confirmed with my own testings that great axe is indeed faster and also that its damage range is bugged, and i consider it an exploit, since it deals above average damage most of the time, while the greatsword should be the one to do so since it has 2 dice instead of one, (and that is only for non greensteel ones of course). nevertheless, 4x2 is still higher than 2x3 so, maybe the attack speed balances it, but i prefer to rely on logic than on the need to see really high numbers every now and then.

on another note, as the other pwer gamers out there can see, im not a complete min-maxer, and im not even trying to attack faster by moving constantly (its a pain in the behind) so dont worry bout me, ill keep being a noob and if the greatsword is a symbol of it im wearing it proudly.

nbhs275
08-14-2008, 01:37 PM
All good points Angelus
either way this argument is moot since i believe the Greatsword to be a much superior weapon to greataxe +10% speed or not, simply because of better crit range and what that can do for Smites, maybe a falchion would be even better, but im not as fond of those as i am of greatswords.
Either way i have confirmed with my own testings that great axe is indeed faster and also that its damage range is bugged, and i consider it an exploit, since it deals above average damage most of the time, while the greatsword should be the one to do so since it has 2 dice instead of one, (and that is only for non greensteel ones of course). nevertheless, 4x2 is still higher than 2x3 so, maybe the attack speed balances it, but i prefer to rely on logic than on the need to see really high numbers every now and then.

on another note, as the other pwer gamers out there can see, im not a complete min-maxer, and im not even trying to attack faster by moving constantly (its a pain in the behind) so dont worry bout me, ill keep being a noob and if the greatsword is a symbol of it im wearing it proudly.

falcion would be the way to go on a paladin if you wherent using an axe, considering the difference in base damage isn't signifigant compared to the increased crit chance, when talking about smites.

Also, the reason a mineral II greataxe is far better then a +5 transmuting greataxe is as follows: Base damage, 3d6 vs 1d12. Good burst, and the tier 3 bonus. Also, lets think about that comment of what a +4 ac bonus would do for a WF PALLY.....

A good WF pally can get a shieldless ac of
10 base
9 addy
7 docent
5 protection
5 aura
3 dex
3 dodge
3 chattering
4 nat
4 GS
___________
53, +4 insp.hero., +1 ranger, +1 haste, +2 recitation, +4 shield clickie

so a 53 standing ac, or a 65 boosted ac without a shield, quite useful to an AC class.

HumanJHawkins
08-14-2008, 03:26 PM
Well no, that's not how math expressions works. The GS will crit twice as much, or 100&#37; more often.<CUT>

What I meant to say was the GSword will crit an additional 10% of the time... Not 10% more. Anyway, instead of calculating damage for each situation, it is much easier to just use JJFlanigan's Weapon Compare tool. It's easy to see by dropping in different numbers and such, that the two weapons are so close that either one wins by a hair depending on different factors. But when you put in the additional +1 to hit, the GSword comes out on top. Here's a chart:

http://www.locutius.com/GAxe-GSwrd_Compare.PNG

I assumed a lvl 16 fighter type with a bloodstone and a 34 STR for this. The only difference should be the GSword gets a misc +1 to hit due to the race/class thing. The red line is Great Sword.

NOTE: This does not take into account the swing rate bug. So, if that is still in, the benefit of the sword might be wiped out. But it is still so close that the Great Sword definitely does not "pretty much suck", as the original comment I was responding to said.

EDIT: I'm not going to redo the graphic over this, but I realize the weapon bonus is listed as zero... The relative effectiveness does not change when you make this +5 for each weapon. So the chart does give an accurate picture of the relative effectiveness of greensteel version, although the damage would be slightly higher across the board, and the benefit of the GSword over GAxe would be maintained into higher ACs.

Laith
08-14-2008, 03:39 PM
The only difference should be the GSword gets a misc +1 to hit due to the race/class thing. The red line is Great Sword.you forgot that that tool doesn't realize that the GS and GA are supposed to both be using 3d6 base damage.
You're comparing 1d12 vs 2d6 base damages too. Not that it makes worlds of difference...

Angelus_dead
08-14-2008, 03:48 PM
I assumed a lvl 16 fighter type with a bloodstone and a 34 STR for this.
The screenshot doesn't look like you're using a bloodstone. Where's the seeker damage? (Seeker damage is more helpful to swords than axes!)

KKDragonLord
08-14-2008, 11:54 PM
Also, the reason a mineral II greataxe is far better then a +5 transmuting greataxe is as follows: Base damage, 3d6 vs 1d12. Good burst, and the tier 3 bonus. Also, lets think about that comment of what a +4 ac bonus would do for a WF PALLY.....


Yeah i think ill stick with the Celestial Fury then, wasnt sure about risking with the salt damage thing either, if it hit more often than lightning strike could be great, but if not, would be a big waste of resources. And yeah i am trying to improve my ac, that chattering ring seems to be a very distant dream though... now, going back to topic, (which was not what kind of weapon should be used) what do you guys think would be more dps/reliable than the celestial fury (without transmuting id like to stress).

BTW how can addy body add 9 and docent 7 ?
addy is 8+1 dex (+3 with daggertooth)
and best docents ive seen so far add only +5 (im planning on makin a whitedragon docent even)

oh, and you forgot the Chaosgard it seems.

nbhs275
08-15-2008, 10:35 AM
Yeah i think ill stick with the Celestial Fury then, wasnt sure about risking with the salt damage thing either, if it hit more often than lightning strike could be great, but if not, would be a big waste of resources. And yeah i am trying to improve my ac, that chattering ring seems to be a very distant dream though... now, going back to topic, (which was not what kind of weapon should be used) what do you guys think would be more dps/reliable than the celestial fury (without transmuting id like to stress).

BTW how can addy body add 9 and docent 7 ?
addy is 8+1 dex (+3 with daggertooth)
and best docents ive seen so far add only +5 (im planning on makin a whitedragon docent even)

oh, and you forgot the Chaosgard it seems.

addy body is only 8, that i messed up on, so -1... BUT, currently the best docent for ac is the emerald claw docent from the abbot, which +5 with an additional +1 ac that stacks, and alchemical makes it work as if a +7 docent. Choasguard is a +2 dodge bonus, and i lumped it in with the dodge feat, keeping chaosguard seperate because ppl love to whine about it. Whitedragon docent really isnt all that great, considering if you want a good ac your going to get a +5 protection item anyways, and resistance and cold resist isnt so important on a pally. I'm disappointed that i wasted alot of time getting white scales to use on my wf pally and am now stuck with a docent only marginally better then an ordernary +5.

etelan
08-15-2008, 10:44 AM
I also play a pally and the bottom line is if you have Holy Sword don't waste the larges on a mineral II. I'm tempted to lean towards the lightning II since it has holy on it as well.

nbhs275
08-15-2008, 11:17 AM
I also play a pally and the bottom line is if you have Holy Sword don't waste the larges on a mineral II. I'm tempted to lean towards the lightning II since it has holy on it as well.

the thing is, holy sword will cover some situations, but not all. A mineral II weapon is basically the strongest all around weapon in the game currently. Because it covers you on the dr of(and means you dont need a specific weaponset for) all undead, all constructs, all devils, all demons, the reaver, the abbot, the eladrin. Holy sword is nice, mineral II, far superior. Lightning II is good but it has the distinct disadvantage of being a very situational weapon.

I dont know about you but i hold a weapon that is going to work very well/best in 85% of all dps situations higher then a weapon that works best in about 4-5% of all dps situations.

KKDragonLord
08-17-2008, 10:55 AM
Either way just because it covers several types of enemies at once, unless they are in a mixed bag fight it may be better to just switch to a specific weapon before every fight. ive got over 12 weapon sets and am pretty used to it. granted that its hard to get specific weapons strong enough to beat the mineral 2 greataxe, but in time all the bases will be covered. Id rather use a specific weapon for every fight than spend weeks or even months trying to make a weapon that is almost as good but works for every occasion. and since i am crafting something, cuz i got to use those ingredients for something right? i prefer to craft a weapon that is the best for a specific set of situations.

also, one thing thats very cool about the lightning 2 weapon is that in the math, if the lightning strikes, the avg damage it deals negate the benefits of transmuting for even a dr 15 with 30 eletric resist.