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Gol
08-12-2008, 11:03 AM
I understand the whole "random" thing, but isn't the point of the 20th rewards to have a good chance of getting what you want? Is there any chance of revisiting how the 20th rewards work? Perhaps making it exclude or reduce chance of things you already have in inventory (so we can dump all our "Item X" in the bank before getting the reward if we want another one)? And/or not presenting bound tomes we've already used (and are inherently useless)?

84+ reaver runs (4 sets of end rewards), a single +3 tome (dex).
40 shroud runs (2 sets of end rewards), no +3 tomes.

The quest for the +3 strength tome continues...

JoeyJoJoJr
08-12-2008, 11:06 AM
I understand the whole "random" thing, but isn't the point of the 20th rewards to have a good chance of getting what you want? Is there any chance of revisiting how the 20th rewards work? Perhaps making it exclude or reduce chance of things you already have in inventory (so we can dump all our "Item X" in the bank before getting the reward if we want another one)? And/or not presenting bound tomes we've already used (and are inherently useless)?

84+ reaver runs (4 sets of end rewards), a single +3 tome (dex).
40 shroud runs (2 sets of end rewards), no +3 tomes.

The quest for the +3 strength tome continues...

I wouldn't call it a good chance... maybe a better chance... which apparently still sucks... if you have luck like me :D

Gunga
08-12-2008, 11:30 AM
/Signed. Raid loot system is a nasty *****.

totmacher
08-12-2008, 11:36 AM
sucks

this is the only mmo I played where working harder and longer at something is not rewarded, never rewarded and always ********

Aspenor
08-12-2008, 11:46 AM
20th lists need to have a full reward list.

especially raids like the titan.

Reisz
08-12-2008, 12:07 PM
20th end reward needs revised

Dariuss
08-12-2008, 12:11 PM
maybe for titan and abbott you could revamp the lsits, but definitely not for reaver - it's already a loot factory and it's not hard to get 20, 40 or 60 reaver runs in, even for casual players.

rawfocat
08-12-2008, 12:20 PM
maybe for titan and abbott you could revamp the lsits, but definitely not for reaver - it's already a loot factory and it's not hard to get 20, 40 or 60 reaver runs in, even for casual players.

But why woudl revising the list to a fll list at 20 matter for the reaver. I agree it is a loot factory, but why not generate the full list, if you got your loot then it is mediocre at best. If you are the unlucky 1% it is good?
Why not reward the grind with the full loot list.

Issip
08-12-2008, 12:35 PM
This isn't going to be popular, but "Holy Crybaby post Batman!". 20th rewards were put in place to give you a good chance at getting a named item from the (previously) warded chest to help ensure players have a good chance of getting the raid loot they want after repeating the raid a large number of times.

I don't think everyone is supposed to be garanteed a +3 tome of their choosing for pyking the reaver 20 times, and I don't think it would improve the game at all if they did. If Turbine ever does just give into one of these posts and give away all the +3 tomes and raid loot and all other desireable items in the game how long will it take for all the people who posted asking for the easy loot to get bored and quit? Seriously? There would be what left to do?

The reaver isn't even a challenge at level 12 and you want +3 tomes raining out of it? I'm not even a powergamer, I get maybe 15 hours a week in and I haven't ever wanted the game changed to generate more easier loot - my toons are already doing pretty good. Grinding for the supreme power shard kinda sucked, but it gave me something to do, and after a long wait - hey I finally got one. I wouldn't mind if I had to go another 3 months, yeah I'd rather get lucky my first run, but at least the random factor leaves SOMETHING for my toons to do.

Verdant_Force
08-12-2008, 01:00 PM
the answer is simple: Turbine NEEDS to reward players on the 20th run by giving them the full list of available loot for that raid. All of the available loot for said raid needs to have an equal drop rate (even though the drop rate for anything is poor anyway, imo). IE, if there is 10 available items for drop...they all need to have a 10% chance of dropping, not one at 40% and another at less that 5%. In essence, if it is done this way - the loot is GUARANTEED a 5% drop rate (1 out of 20 converted to a percentage).

Unless you're collecting ingredients for crafting, it is absolutely ABSURD that you need to run a raid 80 times to get the loot you want. As someone who plays 12-16 hours a week, I just don't have the time to run the titan 80 times before I get a chattering ring (as an example...which according to most people has a MUCH less than 5% drop rate)

As for tomes, maybe those who are persistent enough and run a raid 40 times will get a tome of their choosing (+X appropriate depending on the level of the normal raid, ie +1 for dragon, +2 for titan and reaver, +3 for shroud and the like). I would think that after running a raid FORTY freaking times you should be guaranteed a tome.

Therefore, 40 completions = 1 tome and 1 piece of raid gear, both chosen by you.

Gol
08-12-2008, 01:05 PM
This isn't going to be popular, but "Holy Crybaby post Batman!". 20th rewards were put in place to give you a good chance at getting a named item from the (previously) warded chest to help ensure players have a good chance of getting the raid loot they want after repeating the raid a large number of times.
I chose the wording in the OP carefully because I was not "crying" about it. I'm not whining and not complaining about my bad luck or how I didn't get the random item I wanted.

Read the part of your post I have quoted and then read the OP again. You're reinforcing my point. I've repeated it a VERY large number of times and still do not have the single item I want. Did I expect it after 20? No. Did I expect it after 40? No. Did I expect it on any given run? No. But my point here is that I've gone through 4 sets of Reaver rewards and 2 sets of Shroud rewards and don't have much (debatably anything, b/c +3 dex put my dex at an odd number) to show for end rewards.

Now let's go back to your statement regarding the purpose of 20th rewards.

give you a good chance at getting a named item ... they want after repeating the raid a large number of times.

My point is that while +3 tomes are cool, there's never a "good" chance to get one. The drop rate is so small that there's little to no point in farming for one. Am I saying increase the drop rate? No, I intentionally did NOT suggest that in the OP. However, since +3 tomes are functionally a named Reaver item, apply your logic to my desire. Now there's the problem. You never have a good chance at getting a +3 tome. Emphasis on "good" (your words, not mine).

I offered at least 2 viable suggestions in the OP to address this w/o increasing the drop rate in the quest or by any significant margin on repetitions under 40 (or so, just an estimate). It does begin to increase the reward chance after extreme repition, though, which was my intent.

Razvan
08-12-2008, 01:07 PM
Do you even know what 5% means?...do you think that 5% means that you get what you want GUARANTEED in 20 tries? how about a concept of randomness, do you have that?... I guess some people think that everyone should win the loterry...but that's not the way things go...Move on or stop playing...it really is that simple!



Oh, and Issip: couldn't agree with you more!



the answer is simple: Turbine NEEDS to reward players on the 20th run by giving them the full list of available loot for that raid. All of the available loot for said raid needs to have an equal drop rate (even though the drop rate for anything is poor anyway, imo). IE, if there is 10 available items for drop...they all need to have a 10% chance of dropping, not one at 40% and another at less that 5%. In essence, if it is done this way - the loot is GUARANTEED a 5% drop rate (1 out of 20 converted to a percentage).

Unless you're collecting ingredients for crafting, it is absolutely ABSURD that you need to run a raid 80 times to get the loot you want. As someone who plays 12-16 hours a week, I just don't have the time to run the titan 80 times before I get a chattering ring (as an example...which according to most people has a MUCH less than 5% drop rate)

As for tomes, maybe those who are persistent enough and run a raid 40 times will get a tome of their choosing (+X appropriate depending on the level of the normal raid, ie +1 for dragon, +2 for titan and reaver, +3 for shroud and the like). I would think that after running a raid FORTY freaking times you should be guaranteed a tome.

Therefore, 40 completions = 1 tome and 1 piece of raid gear, both chosen by you.

deepshadow
08-12-2008, 01:10 PM
You shouldn't assume that +3 tomes are going to be in the 20th loot lists. +3 tomes are very rare.

I'm close to 120 reaver runs on my main and I've only had 1 tome drop. 50 shroud raids only yielded 1 tome (but atleast the% seems higher).

We also now have the General and Hound raid with additional chances at a drop.

Including the Shroud, we have 4 raids which can yield tomes.

Last, the Abbot has a chance to drop +3 tomes.

Between these 5 raids, you should have a good chance at getting a +3 tome. +3 tomes aren't a given and shouldn't be considered easy to obtain.

Verdant_Force
08-12-2008, 01:16 PM
Do you even know what 5% means?...do you think that 5% means that you get what you want GUARANTEED in 20 tries? how about a concept of randomness, do you have that?... I guess some people think that everyone should win the loterry...but that's not the way things go...Move on or stop playing...it really is that simple!

Yes, 5% means an incentive to keep playing. A casual gamer will not stick around to do the same raid 50 times. There is plenty of randomness of what drops in the chest. All I'm saying is that give the non-hardcore gamers a reason to stick around.

Missing_Minds
08-12-2008, 01:16 PM
*sighs* this junk again? The 20th is just there to give you raid loot. That it is. It is a reward such that "ok, you ran this 20 times. here is guarantied loot."

That is it.

There is NOTHING ever stated that this was to be a way that you will always get tomes.
There is nothing ever stated that what you want will be there.

feynman
08-12-2008, 01:17 PM
Do you even know what 5% means?...do you think that 5% means that you get what you want GUARANTEED in 20 tries? how about a concept of randomness, do you have that?... I guess some people think that everyone should win the loterry...but that's not the way things go...Move on or stop playing...it really is that simple!

Ah, but now we're hitting the concept of "extreme improbability"; no, 5% does not guarantee that you will receive said item 1 out of 20 times, however it does imply that most people should see the item drop within 100 runs or so, and it just ain't so. Instead, they have picked the most desirable items in each raid, and altered the drop mechanics to make them harder to get.

DasLurch
08-12-2008, 01:22 PM
I have been "spurned" by the loot gods on my one character that has managed 20 runs on one raid. No tome=sadness, but whatever. I would have been deligted IF there had been what I needed on my 20th run. I don't think I DESERVE a reward for running the same quest 20, 40, 60 or 80+ times. If/when it does happen, great! No one will be happier than I will. I promise, but thinking or feeling that you deserve it is just wrong to my thinking. Everyone here would love to see some tweaks made to the loot tables, but demanding exactly what you want is a bit far fetched. It's a reward, not a given. Sometimes the rewards for doing things are great. Other times not so much, but that doesn't stop you from doing them anyway I'd hope.

Issip
08-12-2008, 01:23 PM
I chose the wording in the OP carefully because I was not "crying" about it. I'm not whining and not complaining about my bad luck or how I didn't get the random item I wanted.

Read the part of your post I have quoted and then read the OP again. You're reinforcing my point. I've repeated it a VERY large number of times and still do not have the single item I want. Did I expect it after 20? No. Did I expect it after 40? No. Did I expect it on any given run? No. But my point here is that I've gone through 4 sets of Reaver rewards and 2 sets of Shroud rewards and don't have much (debatably anything, b/c +3 dex put my dex at an odd number) to show for end rewards.

Now let's go back to your statement regarding the purpose of 20th rewards.


My point is that while +3 tomes are cool, there's never a "good" chance to get one. The drop rate is so small that there's little to no point in farming for one. Am I saying increase the drop rate? No, I intentionally did NOT suggest that in the OP. However, since +3 tomes are functionally a named Reaver item, apply your logic to my desire. Now there's the problem. You never have a good chance at getting a +3 tome. Emphasis on "good" (your words, not mine).

I offered at least 2 viable suggestions in the OP to address this w/o increasing the drop rate in the quest or by any significant margin on repetitions under 40 (or so, just an estimate). It does begin to increase the reward chance after extreme repition, though, which was my intent.

You want a +3 STR tome. You want a specific +3 tome, not a named raid item. Personally I think it's laughable that +3 tomes come out of a raid that was being solo'd with regularity when the level cap was 12, there should only be +2 tomes available. It takes 20 minutes to pyke a reaver run, and you get 4 chests full of **** every time you do. But those chests didn't have your +3 STR tome and you are complaining that you want more +3 tomes dropping so you would by now have your +3 STR tome (and I suppose a full set of +3 Tomes) by now, otherwise you might not have a +3 STR tome, only +3 DEX (oh, the humanity) and +3 INT and +3 WIS, and +3 Char, and +3 CON.

You have not gotten your +3 STR tome because Turbine doesn't want everyone who has pyked the reaver 40 times to have a full set of +3 tomes, which is what you are requesting. I agree with Turbine, and I'm glad none of my toons have full sets of +3 tomes as I would be bored of the game.

If you had done 60 reavers and not gotten your tenderizer it would be a completely different conversation that I wouldn't have replied to, but you already have every single piece of named loot you could want from the raid because Turbine's system worked fine. If there was a named +3 STR tome in the list then maybe I could see that - they could call it "Tome of the Reaver Pyker" and everyone could get one with 20 or fewer Reaver runs, but that would only de-value +3 STR tomes and make them common junk like tenderizers, at which point why play the game anymore? I suppose so you could complain about not getting a +3 Con tome, but now we've come full circle.

Verdant_Force
08-12-2008, 01:24 PM
Ah, but now we're hitting the concept of "extreme improbability"; no, 5% does not guarantee that you will receive said item 1 out of 20 times, however it does imply that most people should see the item drop within 100 runs or so, and it just ain't so. Instead, they have picked the most desirable items in each raid, and altered the drop mechanics to make them harder to get.

I doubt anyone is going to stick around for 300 real life days to get ONE piece of raid loot. 60 days is still a long time, but within the acceptable range.

"Hey you've done this raid every 3 days for 60 days, but we're still not gonna give you that (item), so go ahead and bring that up to 120 tries and maybe we'll give it to you."

What would be your response to that statement? Not a positive one I'm sure...

DasLurch
08-12-2008, 01:24 PM
Ah, but now we're hitting the concept of "extreme improbability"; no, 5% does not guarantee that you will receive said item 1 out of 20 times, however it does imply that most people should see the item drop within 100 runs or so, and it just ain't so. Instead, they have picked the most desirable items in each raid, and altered the drop mechanics to make them harder to get.

Not so. I says that there is a 5% chance of it dropping EACH TIME. 2 runs doesn't = 10%. 10 runs does not = 50%. It is just a 5% chance on each run. That's the sad part.

EinarMal
08-12-2008, 01:28 PM
Not so. I says that there is a 5% chance of it dropping EACH TIME. 2 runs doesn't = 10%. 10 runs does not = 50%. It is just a 5% chance on each run. That's the sad part.

His point was that if the drop rate was really 5%, then after a 100 runs the probability of not getting the item at least one time would be, .95^100 power or about 1/2 of a percent.

Aspenor
08-12-2008, 01:28 PM
Not so. I says that there is a 5% chance of it dropping EACH TIME. 2 runs doesn't = 10%. 10 runs does not = 50%. It is just a 5% chance on each run. That's the sad part.

Problem is, this 5% figure being thrown around is fictional an non-existent.

There is a 0.8% chance of getting a +3 tome from the Reaver.

I'd argue the Titan Belt has about a 0.4% chance of appearing.

All useful items have a lower drop rate. Useless items, like the Madstone Shield and that sickle from the Titan...those have high drop rates.

Xyfiel
08-12-2008, 01:41 PM
"Personally I think it's laughable that +3 tomes come out of a raid that was being solo'd with regularity when the level cap was 12, there should only be +2 tomes available."

Wandering what raid we had at level 12 with +3 tomes...

Issip
08-12-2008, 01:52 PM
14, my bad.

DasLurch
08-12-2008, 01:53 PM
His point was that if the drop rate was really 5%, then after a 100 runs the probability of not getting the item at least one time would be, .95^100 power or about 1/2 of a percent.

OK, so its a "fictional" number. I just used the numbers others were using in this thread. The point still doesn't change. It's still doesn't accumulate as far as your chances go. You just get more chances to be dissappointed. Running the quest over and over will not get you a definitive shot. at exactly what you want. It just gets you as many long shots as you can. Several of my friends have run that silly reaver quest 60-80 times, and they have seen the exact same screen for every x20th run.

But now I'm delving into flame wars, so cya.

gfunk
08-12-2008, 01:54 PM
20ths...

It may seem like a long haul, so I just try and get all my raid counts up. A short while ago, we only had 2 raids with a shot at +3's (I wont count abbot), but now we have 4. I may be no where close on Hound and Visions, but one day... bam! Between 20th reward shots on Reaver, Hound, Vision, and Shroud there is a pretty decent shot at a tome, but i certainly don't expect it to be guaranteed (20th on reaver and shroud on any alts were a no show for tomes for me) . Yeah, some people may not get one after even a huge amount of runs, but at least they get to complain about their lousy luck which has its own satisfactions.


I remember how excited a guildy was to pull a w/p rapier.. talk about rare. No where near as common as +3 tome drops. That feeling of excitement just wouldnt happen if loot dropped easier than it does.

Razvan
08-12-2008, 01:58 PM
they did...I play 10 hours a week at most...I have a character with over 2100 favor...I have seen 2 +3 tomes drop in the reaver chest for me and one for each of my 20th and 40th rewards (they were both CHA tomes for my sorc...that was kinda cool actually). I have had about 4-5 unbound +2 tomes drop for me and about 12-15 +1 tomes...I am happy...I am a casual player...no, I will not have a tier 3 weapon ever, but I always had my chance for those +2 and +3 tomes...and I cannot tell you how excited I am every 3 days when I log in for half an hour and do the Reaver and open that chest and hold my breath and maybe, just maybe, another +3 tome will come my way. That would all go away, all that excitement, all that thrill if they had guaranteed +3 tomes at the 20th, 40th, 60th, etc lists...


Oh, and on my sorc I am now at 62 Reaver completions! And still playing her every 3 days for that +3 tome (which I will most likely give away anyway because my sorc doesn't need any other tome :D)


Yes, 5% means an incentive to keep playing. A casual gamer will not stick around to do the same raid 50 times. There is plenty of randomness of what drops in the chest. All I'm saying is that give the non-hardcore gamers a reason to stick around.

Verdant_Force
08-12-2008, 02:10 PM
they did...I play 10 hours a week at most...I have a character with over 2100 favor...I have seen 2 +3 tomes drop in the reaver chest for me and one for each of my 20th and 40th rewards (they were both CHA tomes for my sorc...that was kinda cool actually). I have had about 4-5 unbound +2 tomes drop for me and about 12-15 +1 tomes


So you you play 10 hours a week and you've pulled 4 +3 tomes, 5 +2 tomes and 15 +1 tomes?

I must be doing something wrong then...


That would all go away, all that excitement, all that thrill if they had guaranteed +3 tomes at the 20th, 40th, 60th, etc lists...


And read my post - I never said you're guaranteed a +3 tome on the Reaver at all, ever. I said on the 40th try you get a tome of your choice (in the reaver's case - a +2). You're assuming I meant you get a tome EVERY 20th completion.

Thrudh
08-12-2008, 02:18 PM
Reaver doesn't count... leave the reaver out....

How many casual players here? Razvan says he's a 10 hours a week/player...

How many DQ completions does he have? How many Dragon completions? How many Titan completions? He plays a sorc... Sorcs and wizards are awesome because there really isn't that much raid loot they want or need...

My wizard doesn't even really need any Shroud gear to be totally awesome...

My ranger and my barbarian on the other hand...

I've played for more than two years... I have 10 Titan completions on my Barbarian... I will be extremely upset if I don't get the Chattering ring on my 20th... It takes a long time to PUG the Titan, and it's not even that much fun for me... I've worked hard to make him a good intimitank... I want ONE item from the Titan.... 20 completions is a lot of time invested...

Both my ranger and my barbarian have 15 completions each on the DQ... It used to be fun to flag for that, but I'm bored of it now... When I get to 20 each, I really really hope those True-seeing goggles are on that list...

I don't even bother with the Dragon anymore...

1 guarenteed item after TWENTY raids (Flagging and the raids) is not that much to ask... The game feels like such a grind when I'm in those quests...

I still like the Shroud, even after 50 completions, but the Titan and DQ are no longer much fun.... 20 Completions of any raid is a lot... We deserve the full list... It's ONE item after 20 completions.... That is not unreasonable...

Again, leave the Reaver out... That raid is a joke... Doesn't count...

And we shouldn't be talking about tomes... just the raid items...

Verdant_Force
08-12-2008, 02:29 PM
Reaver doesn't count... leave the reaver out....

How many casual players here? Razvan says he's a 10 hours a week/player...

How many DQ completions does he have? How many Dragon completions? How many Titan completions? He plays a sorc... Sorcs and wizards are awesome because there really isn't that much raid loot they want or need...

My wizard doesn't even really need any Shroud gear to be totally awesome...

My ranger and my barbarian on the other hand...

I've played for more than two years... I have 10 Titan completions on my Barbarian... I will be extremely upset if I don't get the Chattering ring on my 20th... It takes a long time to PUG the Titan, and it's not even that much fun for me... I've worked hard to make him a good intimitank... I want ONE item from the Titan.... 20 completions is a lot of time invested...

Both my ranger and my barbarian have 15 completions each on the DQ... It used to be fun to flag for that, but I'm bored of it now... When I get to 20 each, I really really hope those True-seeing goggles are on that list...

I don't even bother with the Dragon anymore...

1 guarenteed item after TWENTY raids (Flagging and the raids) is not that much to ask... The game feels like such a grind when I'm in those quests...

I still like the Shroud, even after 50 completions, but the Titan and DQ are no longer much fun.... 20 Completions of any raid is a lot... We deserve the full list... It's ONE item after 20 completions.... That is not unreasonable...

Again, leave the Reaver out... That raid is a joke... Doesn't count...

And we shouldn't be talking about tomes... just the raid items...

12-16 hours and I haven't done any raid over 10 times...

I 100% agree

Turial
08-12-2008, 02:42 PM
.....
Both my ranger and my barbarian have 15 completions each on the DQ... It used to be fun to flag for that, but I'm bored of it now... When I get to 20 each, I really really hope those True-seeing goggles are on that list...
...

Wish you the best of luck man. It took me 60 runs...granted 40 of them were short man runs back when two items always dropped. I do have lots of the scales and chain armor from that raid. I figure I can melt them down into blocks and make a guild house some day.

Riggs
08-13-2008, 11:15 AM
I posted most of this in the other post about the low drop rate in scales, but it applies to any raid/named loot in general.

Yes a lot of players dont mind it and will run raids non-stop. The proportion is higher because I have seen a lot of people quit over the grind. 10 runs to get something is tolerable. 20, 30,50 runs to get a single item....many people see that and say "I'll go find something else fun to do". I know far more people that either give up on raids, or dont even bother because it takes so long to get anything or anywhere. Most people I know like making up many characters. If you are stuck playing ONE character in raids for months because it takes months to get any items...then either you face the choice of no one having named/raid items, or not being able to play all your characters - both are bad choices.

I posted about a month or two after the Shroud came out about what the low drop rates, and long, long grinds is doing to some players...namely a good buddy who I played with decided that he had enough of the grind - and each mod is making the grind for items that are better than random vendor trash longer and longer.

His exact quote was "Well I will look at the recipes maybe in a few months when I can actually make something"...two weeks later he let his account end because everyone was running the shroud pretty much non-stop, and that seemed pretty boring considering you have to run it 20+ times to get a single good item on anyone. And for many people, running the same thing dozens of times gets really boring - but when the majority of 'good' players are running it, if you want to run other stuff you end up pugging with what often ends up being really iffy groups - and bad pugs is a good reason to stop playing for a while too.

Somewhere along the way it seems to have been decided that the longer the grind, the happier players will be and keep playing. That assumption is very, very wrong.

When it comes to teh 20th run list - yes adding in a choice was more or less a good thing. But consider what was taken out. Basically EVERYONE except for random pugs ran raids with 6 people, or less. That means 3-6 people had 2 items to choose from each time they completed a raid. Even with the crappy odds of getting something good, you have a 50-33% chance of being able to get something.

THEN the glyphs were taken out. Yay. Except the odds for a play to get something individually was.....tada 16% Exactly HALF the odds that most people had before. Yeah...great.

I know people who have run Titan for just 2 items, and after 40-60 runs are STILL waiting to get at least 1 of them.

If anyone at Turbine thinks the vast majority of players enjoys running the same quest 60 times on a single character just to get a single item - they are incorrect in that assumption.

If running a raid 20 times - which is 2 SOLID months of running the same raid on the same character every 3 days - is not considered 'good enough' to get a choice of all the items on the list....what happens when someone gets bored, gives up, or fed up with something? They quit.

If someone has 8 characters, or more (I have at least 12 I enjoy) and you face 2/4/6 months on a single character to get items...it basically means 1. Quit your job so you have more time to raid or 2. quit playing DDO so much because once you get a capped guy life gets really boring after that.

So ....Turbine might want to strongly consider making the 20th run have a full set of items, including a choice, or at least one tome. Ditto for other collectables being a bit easier to collect.

Shagn
08-13-2008, 12:14 PM
I think raid loot should be rare, but it's disappointing to run raids multiple times over several months (years) and still not get certain items. Out of a combined 60+ runs on titan, I only have one character that has the belt and none of them have the chattering ring or the gloves (To be honest, my bard did win the roll on the gloves many moons ago, but forfeited it to the rogue since it would be better suited to him). This is just one example of a raid item... And as one of the first adventurers to journey in and solve the puzzles (and leading countless pugs), that is very disappointing. :o

creithne
08-13-2008, 01:19 PM
I think something that may tie into this is the timers on the raids themselves, yeah its all well and good to have to wait for 3 days for the raids that are the same level as the current cap, but having to wait for 3 days on things like reaver and dq, that are well below the cap, is kinda ridiculous. Who is going to sit at the appropriate level for the lower end raids now for 60+ days to get their 20? By the time that 20th raid rolls around (on the lower raids) I'd have to guess you'd be pretty hard pressed to NOT be capped, and hence quite a bit over the level of those raids.

Issip
08-13-2008, 01:19 PM
I posted most of this in the other post about the low drop rate in scales, but it applies to any raid/named loot in general.

Yes a lot of players dont mind it and will run raids non-stop. The proportion is higher because I have seen a lot of people quit over the grind. 10 runs to get something is tolerable. 20, 30,50 runs to get a single item....many people see that and say "I'll go find something else fun to do". I know far more people that either give up on raids, or dont even bother because it takes so long to get anything or anywhere. Most people I know like making up many characters. If you are stuck playing ONE character in raids for months because it takes months to get any items...then either you face the choice of no one having named/raid items, or not being able to play all your characters - both are bad choices.

I posted about a month or two after the Shroud came out about what the low drop rates, and long, long grinds is doing to some players...namely a good buddy who I played with decided that he had enough of the grind - and each mod is making the grind for items that are better than random vendor trash longer and longer.

His exact quote was "Well I will look at the recipes maybe in a few months when I can actually make something"...two weeks later he let his account end because everyone was running the shroud pretty much non-stop, and that seemed pretty boring considering you have to run it 20+ times to get a single good item on anyone. And for many people, running the same thing dozens of times gets really boring - but when the majority of 'good' players are running it, if you want to run other stuff you end up pugging with what often ends up being really iffy groups - and bad pugs is a good reason to stop playing for a while too.

Somewhere along the way it seems to have been decided that the longer the grind, the happier players will be and keep playing. That assumption is very, very wrong.

When it comes to teh 20th run list - yes adding in a choice was more or less a good thing. But consider what was taken out. Basically EVERYONE except for random pugs ran raids with 6 people, or less. That means 3-6 people had 2 items to choose from each time they completed a raid. Even with the crappy odds of getting something good, you have a 50-33% chance of being able to get something.

THEN the glyphs were taken out. Yay. Except the odds for a play to get something individually was.....tada 16% Exactly HALF the odds that most people had before. Yeah...great.

I know people who have run Titan for just 2 items, and after 40-60 runs are STILL waiting to get at least 1 of them.

If anyone at Turbine thinks the vast majority of players enjoys running the same quest 60 times on a single character just to get a single item - they are incorrect in that assumption.

If running a raid 20 times - which is 2 SOLID months of running the same raid on the same character every 3 days - is not considered 'good enough' to get a choice of all the items on the list....what happens when someone gets bored, gives up, or fed up with something? They quit.

If someone has 8 characters, or more (I have at least 12 I enjoy) and you face 2/4/6 months on a single character to get items...it basically means 1. Quit your job so you have more time to raid or 2. quit playing DDO so much because once you get a capped guy life gets really boring after that.

So ....Turbine might want to strongly consider making the 20th run have a full set of items, including a choice, or at least one tome. Ditto for other collectables being a bit easier to collect.

So running the shroud is only fun if you get super named loot? I was irritated at how long it took me to get a supreme power shard on my fighter - 24 runs, but I didn't create a thread to complain because I also had fun doing it, got at least 1 non-bound +2 tome, picked up a +3 wisdom tome for my 20th (nothing was really good for me, would have much rather had a +3 dex, str or con tome, but heck I'll take a +1 to will save). I don't really know what else I got from all those runs, some vorpals, some nice weapons, some +6 stat items. Even before I could upgrade my weapon I already had been "compensated" for my shroud time quite well from all the random loot I pulled. I never really thought od the shroud as having absolutely no point whatsoever unless you get a tier 3 weapon or item, it just seemed like a good fun raid with a lot of good loot along the way.

I run the shroud every once in a while and it took months but eventually I managed to fully upgrade 2 items so far (and now I'm completely out of most large ingredients). If I run the shroud tomorrow it won't get me a tier 3 upgraded item, but it very well might get me a +2 tome that I can trade to any of my toons or sell on the AH.

If the only part of the game that interests you at all is that one brief instant where you get to pick up the absolute best loot in the game then you won't be very happy with any MMO IMO. I think they have done a great job putting in fun rewarding content at all levels of this game, and if people get fixated on a certain item that their toon absolutely has to have and nothing else in the game matters, well there's not a whole lot they can do for you.

Giving away more loot easier and giving away end items like +3 tomes won't make this game any better, it will take away any sense of accomplishment and any incentive to play at all - what do you do when your toon already has everything? Win on the killboard and tell everyone how LEET you are?

Verdant_Force
08-13-2008, 01:34 PM
Giving away more loot easier and giving away end items like +3 tomes won't make this game any better, it will take away any sense of accomplishment and any incentive to play at all - what do you do when your toon already has everything? Win on the killboard and tell everyone how LEET you are?

Let's say a person with NO raid gear is aiming for 2 unique raid loot items eventually for each of their characters...
You will be lucky if you get one of those running a raid 20 times with the way the best raid gear drops. That's 2 months for EACH item. So, on average, 4 months to get the basic essentials of raid gear per character. Most people nowadays have many capped characters, therefore it will take you a year+ for all the raid loot you want. I'm sorry but if I don't get what I want for my characters after years and months of playing, I have clearly played enough of a game that does not reward appropriately.

This is just a reinforcement of the above posts saying that 20 runs should be ENOUGH for ONE piece of gear.

Gratch
08-13-2008, 01:47 PM
80+ reavers, and a 20 shroud reward on my evada/skill fighter... no +3's at all. I've made up for it somewhat by using a +2 in every stat. Though I still have a human enh attribute point waiting for a +3... If I hit 100 reavers and the soon 20 hound with no +3... reroll time! (j/k).

Both arcanes and my cleric have a +3 in their main stat and an extra one somewhere as well. So it's not that I never get +3's... just not on the toon that's attribute focussed.

Strykersz
08-13-2008, 01:48 PM
I think the best solution would be to not roll on the "raid loot drop" table but to just evenly weight the chance of any piece on that table showing up.

Tarackian
08-13-2008, 02:00 PM
Not to be harsh but I guess you don't really understand the randomness of loots drops. IMO drops are fine. Either I get or not. When I do its special and I feel lucky. I have 9 toons running the reaver. Well over 100 runs across the lot and only 1 tome. Do I get bent, nope. I'm lucky i got one. 20 x 5% does not equal 100% when 5% is applied to each run and is not cumulative. Leave the loot process alone I say. It's better than what we had before but doesn't cheapen' the results to the point of why bother running i know what awaits me at the end. I like the fact that stuff is hard to come buy. Give me a reason to grind.




I understand the whole "random" thing, but isn't the point of the 20th rewards to have a good chance of getting what you want? Is there any chance of revisiting how the 20th rewards work? Perhaps making it exclude or reduce chance of things you already have in inventory (so we can dump all our "Item X" in the bank before getting the reward if we want another one)? And/or not presenting bound tomes we've already used (and are inherently useless)?

84+ reaver runs (4 sets of end rewards), a single +3 tome (dex).
40 shroud runs (2 sets of end rewards), no +3 tomes.

The quest for the +3 strength tome continues...

gfunk
08-13-2008, 02:11 PM
assuming a 5% chance of success per run, you are only:

64.2% likely to get a tome by your 20th. (~36/100 people wont a +3 tome by their 20th run)
87.1% by 40th,
95.4% by 60th,
98.3% by 80th and
99.4% at the 100th (~1/200 wont get a +3 by their 100th run)

There is never a case where you reach a 100% probability.

Issip
08-13-2008, 03:00 PM
Let's say a person with NO raid gear is aiming for 2 unique raid loot items eventually for each of their characters...
You will be lucky if you get one of those running a raid 20 times with the way the best raid gear drops. That's 2 months for EACH item. So, on average, 4 months to get the basic essentials of raid gear per character. Most people nowadays have many capped characters, therefore it will take you a year+ for all the raid loot you want. I'm sorry but if I don't get what I want for my characters after years and months of playing, I have clearly played enough of a game that does not reward appropriately.

This is just a reinforcement of the above posts saying that 20 runs should be ENOUGH for ONE piece of gear.

You get ONE piece of gear - thats EXACTLY how it works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Probably you already got more than ONE piece of gear, but you definately get ONE more piece of gear at 20. There is no 100% garantee that you get the exact item you want, but +3 tomes aside that is not the subject of this post (read the OP).

The OP wanted his +3 STR tome. He did not suggest a method by which he would be able to get whatever +3 tome he wanted, but he was mad that he hadn't gotten his +3 STR tome. I essentially said getting whatever +3 tome you want for 20 reavers is a joke, and whining about not getting is also a joke.

So you want to get whatever named raid item you want, garanteed, after 20 runs, as I understand it. That's not quite the topic, but I still don't agree with that, I think the system works fine as it is. Rare raid loot should not be garanteed, otherwise it wouldn't be rare.

And pretending like you run a raid for 2 months to get to 20 completions and get only 1 item is a misleading assertion. I have reached 20 runs on several different raids and I don't think I've ever made 20 runs without getting at least one useful raid item, perhaps not exactly the item I want, certainly not exactly the +3 tome I want, but by 20 you most likely have something.

Verdant_Force
08-13-2008, 03:16 PM
You get ONE piece of gear - thats EXACTLY how it works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Probably you already got more than ONE piece of gear, but you definately get ONE more piece of gear at 20. There is no 100% garantee that you get the exact item you want, but +3 tomes aside that is not the subject of this post (read the OP).

The OP wanted his +3 STR tome. He did not suggest a method by which he would be able to get whatever +3 tome he wanted, but he was mad that he hadn't gotten his +3 STR tome. I essentially said getting whatever +3 tome you want for 20 reavers is a joke, and whining about not getting is also a joke.

So you want to get whatever named raid item you want, garanteed, after 20 runs, as I understand it. That's not quite the topic, but I still don't agree with that, I think the system works fine as it is. Rare raid loot should not be garanteed, otherwise it wouldn't be rare.

And pretending like you run a raid for 2 months to get to 20 completions and get only 1 item is a misleading assertion. I have reached 20 runs on several different raids and I don't think I've ever made 20 runs without getting at least one useful raid item, perhaps not exactly the item I want, certainly not exactly the +3 tome I want, but by 20 you most likely have something.

Aye, I agree with you that I've gotten plenty of worthless raid loot after even 3 runs...
But that wasn't the point of what you quoted, the point was about getting the ONE thing you're doing that particular raid for. I'm not going to argue about opinions about what people think should happen after you do raid X a number of Y times, because that is based on outside factors including play time, guild cohesion, etc. Obviously doing a raid 50 times is not out of your grasp, but for others it is and will undoubtedly factor in to what they think is a "rare" piece of loot.

And as far as you berating me for not sticking with what the OP said, is not a discussion just a number of responses to things already said? I was simply responding to what's been said already, thus furthering the discussion. Forgive me if I didn't rigidly stick with the original post...:rolleyes:

Issip
08-13-2008, 04:58 PM
Aye, I agree with you that I've gotten plenty of worthless raid loot after even 3 runs...
But that wasn't the point of what you quoted, the point was about getting the ONE thing you're doing that particular raid for. I'm not going to argue about opinions about what people think should happen after you do raid X a number of Y times, because that is based on outside factors including play time, guild cohesion, etc. Obviously doing a raid 50 times is not out of your grasp, but for others it is and will undoubtedly factor in to what they think is a "rare" piece of loot.

And as far as you berating me for not sticking with what the OP said, is not a discussion just a number of responses to things already said? I was simply responding to what's been said already, thus furthering the discussion. Forgive me if I didn't rigidly stick with the original post...:rolleyes:

Take a quick look at what you quoted from me:


Originally Posted by Issip
Giving away more loot easier and giving away end items like +3 tomes won't make this game any better, it will take away any sense of accomplishment and any incentive to play at all - what do you do when your toon already has everything? Win on the killboard and tell everyone how LEET you are?

I wasn't berating you, i was merely pointing out how you had changed the subject. Kinda seems like I was still talking about +3 tomes to me, but I am just reading what you quoted, not what you might later claim to have been responding to.

If you're doing a raid only for ONE thing then expect a lot of disappointment.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-13-2008, 05:31 PM
Ah, but now we're hitting the concept of "extreme improbability"; no, 5% does not guarantee that you will receive said item 1 out of 20 times, however it does imply that most people should see the item drop within 100 runs or so, and it just ain't so. Instead, they have picked the most desirable items in each raid, and altered the drop mechanics to make them harder to get.

Actually the % for reaver is 0.8%... so no surprise people don't see them very often.

Vengenance
08-13-2008, 07:18 PM
I just hit my 20th Shroud the weekend on my cleric and three +3 tomes dropped (Dex, Char, and Int). I was really hoping for a +3 Wisdom, Con, or Strength but them be the breaks. I took a +2 Wisdom as an end reward and was happy to have it. My Ranger will hopefully hit her 20th tonight and I'll hope for that +3 Str with her.

Razvan
08-14-2008, 07:36 AM
Yeah, the 5% was just an example that was much easier to understand for some people: 5% means you have to roll a 1 with a D20 eahc time you open the chest or whatever...Tell people that you have to roll a 1 with a D125 and they panic :P


Actually the % for reaver is 0.8%... so no surprise people don't see them very often.

maddmatt70
08-14-2008, 08:01 AM
My friend completed his 20th hound and 20th VOD run and got exactly 1 +3 tome to choose from on each run. The runs that were posted on the new raids showed exactly 1 +3 tome as well. It appears that you are guaranteed a +3 tome on your 20th of the VOD and Hound.

Trixity
08-14-2008, 08:11 AM
To me one of the bigger problems in the game is they have loot that can be used by all classes. Other games have put class restrictions on items to help those classes get them. In this game they have it set so most people can use any item with a UMD. This spreads the loot out even more.

I am not sure why threads like this even start to be honest. I am not knocking Gol but Turbine has proven time and time again that they don't truly listen to the players. There have been gripes that have existed since Beta and have NEVER even been mentioned by a dev.

gfunk
08-14-2008, 10:18 AM
Actually the % for reaver is 0.8%... so no surprise people don't see them very often.

changing from 5% chance makes a big difference

assuming a 0.8% chance of success per run, you are only:

13.5% likely to get a tome by your 20th.
24.5% by 40th,
34.1% by 60th,
42.5% by 80th and
49.9% at the 100th

Always on a point forward basis, which means if you are on your 99th run and haven't got a tome yet, your chance of getting one on the 100th run is still 0.8%... not 49.9. You don't hit a 90% chance unless you run the reaver 337 times... 99% chance at 667 runs (basically 5 1/2 years if always rerunning as soon as raid timer resets). Adjust your expectations accordingly...

not sure what the chances are on the end rewards, these chances would only apply to the warded chest.

Vengenance
08-14-2008, 01:49 PM
Just got the reward list for my second characters 20th Shroud completion and once again I had three +3 tomes populate in my rewards list. I snagged my +3 Str tome and was happy to have it.

Lizardgrad89
08-16-2008, 03:16 PM
I don't think it would be unreasonable to have a second level of guaranteed loot.

Why don't they give you the full list at 100?

Yes, I know, 300 days to get there. But at least you'd know that, if you stuck it out, you would be assured of getting that item you just can't live without.

Far better than wondering if you will EVER get there. A lot less frustration on the player's part if they have a definite goal and a promise of reward, rather than a "roll the dice and hope for the best" result.

darkrune
08-17-2008, 07:15 AM
Here is my breakdown player by player
Darkrune - 58 runs - 0 tomes on 20, 0 tomes on 40 - +3 Int tome out of chest 3 manning run # 56
Divvinity - 43 runs - 0 tomes on 20, +3 int tome on 40 - no other tomes.
Darkaxe - 25 runs - 0 tomes on 20, no other +3 tomes
Darktune - 28 runs - 0 tomes on 20, no other tomes
Darkbow - 18 runs - 0 tomes
Darksoldier - 12 runs - 0 tomes

So unless my math is off a total of 164 runs 6 "20th runs" and 2 tomes, blah blah blah ignoring random probability data ticking off every true number cruncher out there. that is 170 chances at a drop with 2 total tomes for a drop rate (for me at least) of ~1.2% or 0.0117 chance per chance at loot. which is nowhere near the "1/6 drop rate" neverminding that at a minimum >80% of these were on elite.

I know other people that have had better luck and know even more that have had worse luck... these are just MY numbers and I think that they blow. But i do and will continue looting this raid because it is the easiest way currently in the game to get a shot at a +3 tome and even if it takes me to 200 I will get the ones that I want for my toons.

Dark

Rog
08-17-2008, 09:28 AM
ove 80 reavers and i just finished my 20 hound riad no +3 tomes:( i think my bard is cursed he never got a +3 tome yet and i made him when the give us drow for the first time:(
lunarsong

Pyromaniac
08-17-2008, 09:51 AM
I would agree the 20th raid reward list tends to be sad. Sometimes you're lucky, sometimes your not.

Even on shroud where the end reward list took a step forward (then took a step back with hound/vision), bad things happen. On my rogues 20th shroud reward list I had zero +3 tomes. Oh goody - a full set of +2s that are also available in chests or on the auction house.

I would like to see a full reward list (with random +3 tome guarantee) every 20 runs or choice of tomes maybe every 40 runs even. I think this would encourage people to grind out raids just to get their tomes.

You are not guaranteed +3 tomes on hounds and VOD, I know people who have hit 20 on both and not gotten any tomes offered at all.

Venar
08-18-2008, 12:15 PM
The problem is teh randomness.
I have 2 mains.
One is a lucky bastard. He pulled from the reaver 3 tomes (dex, cha, and con). He's a sorc. That's like the 3 best tomes for him.
The other, i pulled zero in 4 tried.
So, i have a super-toon, and one that pales in comparision.
It bothers me that pure luck can affect my characters to such extend.

GlassCannon
08-18-2008, 04:17 PM
20th lists need to have a full reward list.

especially raids like the titan.

Full list of Raid Items, and Full Tome List. Pick one and only one.


This is how it was suggested in the first place, but the Dev Team disagreed that we should have a guaranteed chance at the very reason we are raiding - to get our character that one vital piece that makes their equipment work.

My Monk has been in 22 VoD runs, completed 3(PuGs often have no idea how to raid), and no Outfit. I planned on him having said Outfit at level 1.

Torilin
08-18-2008, 05:02 PM
The raid loot system is messed up and needs to be revised, seen over 30 bard cloaks, 1 set of caster bracers, there is just something wrong with this. Over 100 titans seen the belt 3 times (never gotten one btw). That is just wrong. We should be rewarded for making all those runs, but instead I just get the feeling that I will never get what I want which turns into not running the raid ever again, which turns into not playing the game.

Pyromaniac
08-24-2008, 06:49 PM
Sadly I can confirm 20 visions does not guarantee a tome reward....see attached pic for my rogues 20th vision run. He is now retired from visions forever. And you can see nobody in group wanted a set of enlightened vestments so off to the vendor they went. On the positive side no bard cloaks dropped that run.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h86/PyroDDO/20thVisionRunNoTomes.jpg

Galacticus
08-25-2008, 01:34 AM
The 20th should be static with all the quest rewards. Tomes though should be random...


I really miss the static reward system!

BrianInChrist
10-25-2008, 03:46 PM
Could someone please explain what the 20th rewards system is and exactly how it works (to the extent that "how it works" is known)?

Angelus_dead
10-25-2008, 03:57 PM
Could someone please explain what the 20th rewards system is and exactly how it works (to the extent that "how it works" is known)?
Yes, but first:
Please do not reply to threads that have gone over 50 days with no new posts. Instead, start a new thread with your question.

Your answer:
There are 6 raid quests in DDO: Dragon, Titan, Demon Queen, Reaver, Hound, and VOD. And Abbot, sorta, which makes 7. (Tempest Spine is fake and doesn't count. Shroud is a real raid, but it also doesn't use this system).

Those raids provide desirable named loot which is bind on acquire. There are two ways to get that loot:
1. The chest in the main chamber of the raid has a 16% per-person chance to drop a named item, which you can take or assign to another party member. On hard and elite the chance improves.

2. Once you have completed the raid 20 times, your end-reward from the questgiver will not be the regular random items, and instead will be a list of around 50% of all the named items attached to the raid. This repeats on your 40th, 60th, etc completions.

Another answer:
The point of this thread is that someone was upset that the "50% list" on his 20th completion didn't have the item he wanted.