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Laith
08-05-2008, 12:42 PM
we were given a challenge:


Just wondering if the Devils and Orthons being able to teleport around at will even when stoned, stunned, held, fascinated, tripped, dancing, commanded, AND paralyzed is a bug or if they're working as intended.

Disregarding the discussion on how it should work in pencil & paper D&D, in DDO Orthons and the others can use their purely mental teleport ability while under most if not all of those conditions. It is unclear if someone made that a deliberate choice at some point or if it just "happened" that way.

So, for the purposes of this thread, it's not a bug.

It IS a design issue that could be changed. I encourage all of you who feel strongly about it to start another thread giving reasons why you'd like to see this change.
how about http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm


Flesh to Stone
...
The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. ...

any more?

Yaga_Nub
08-05-2008, 12:46 PM
we were given a challenge:


how about


any more?

very strong first volley. well done sir.

Rameses
08-05-2008, 12:56 PM
very strong first volley. well done sir.

weak reposite. /reroll

Atleast give the Devils a cooldown timer

Laith
08-05-2008, 12:56 PM
weak reposite. /reroll
unfortunately, they only get weaker.

a devil's teleport ability is a spell-like ability.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities


The user activates it mentally.
...
A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated.
...
A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be.


how about:

Stunned
A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).


not as clear cut as before: a spell-like ability takes as long as a standard action, but does that make it "taking an action"?
Rules lawyers commense Endless Argument Attack. ;)

Laith
08-05-2008, 12:57 PM
Atleast give the Devils a cooldown timerthat'd be fine.
currently the only anti-teleport device we seem to have is intimidate... until you miss one.

totmacher
08-05-2008, 12:58 PM
if we got teleport in the game, we should have dimensional anchor to beat it, end of story

Angelus_dead
08-05-2008, 01:00 PM
we were given a challenge:
The rules of D&D are a weak way to advocate for a DDO change. The position should be based on gameplay effects, not fidelity to another system.

In addition, the interaction of crowd control and devil teleportation is a distraction from the real problem with barbazu teleportation, which is painfully apparent long before any CC is cast.

Yaga_Nub
08-05-2008, 02:26 PM
weak reposite. /reroll

Atleast give the Devils a cooldown timer

Why do I hear nothing but crickets when I see your name? :)

MageLL
08-05-2008, 02:42 PM
The devils have unleashed a neferious plot to destroy server/client gameplay. Their AI has collectively been responsible for haulting parties of all skill levels from moving, or taking any other actions then push to talk. Painfull screems of "LAG", "this is fn ********", "I can't move", "I am trying to heal", is the only thing that can be heard when the devils choose to swarm.

I suggest a proactive solution to deal with the AI before it becomes self aware and teleports to the developers personal computers and laptops. If they haven't already... God Help Us!

MysticTheurge
08-05-2008, 03:16 PM
any more?

Yeah... a few.


Irresistible Dance

..

The subject feels an undeniable urge to dance and begins doing so, complete with foot shuffling and tapping. The spell effect makes it impossible for the subject to do anything other than caper and prance in place.


Hold Person

...

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech.


Fascinate

...

If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and listens to the song, taking no other actions...

Gadget2775
08-05-2008, 05:13 PM
Would be nice if our Dragon Marks worked in the same manner. I'd love to be able to teleport to safety when tripped instead of laying on my back gettin the smack down from that durned Air Ele in the desert.

GlassCannon
08-06-2008, 01:09 AM
So essentially Paralysis needs to be changed back to a Hold effect(As I see it this would fix CC across the board).

Paralyzers would shoot up in value again, but not by much.


Fix the old stuff you guys broke, Turbine. We like having overpowered gear to break out in dire situations. Only the weaklings use it ALL THE TIME.

MysticTheurge
08-06-2008, 06:57 AM
So essentially Paralysis needs to be changed back to a Hold effect(As I see it this would fix CC across the board).

Paralyzers would shoot up in value again, but not by much.

Uh.... what?

Missing_Minds
08-06-2008, 08:42 AM
PnP may have had it as an at will effect, however, PnP is also a turned based system, meaning once their turn was done, their teleporting days were over and players could get over to said Orthon to smack it if needed.

The only way to mimic this is to put their ability on a cool down timer.

Also I'm rather strongly suspect that all that teleporting around is a source of LAG for many clients. Sometimes the devils never show up on my screen but I swing at air and see damage numbers show up, and the 'noise' of the teleport. I've lost count of the number of 'invisible' devils I've killed this way.

Gennerik
08-06-2008, 09:33 AM
PnP may have had it as an at will effect, however, PnP is also a turned based system, meaning once their turn was done, their teleporting days were over and players could get over to said Orthon to smack it if needed.

The only way to mimic this is to put their ability on a cool down timer.

Also I'm rather strongly suspect that all that teleporting around is a source of LAG for many clients. Sometimes the devils never show up on my screen but I swing at air and see damage numbers show up, and the 'noise' of the teleport. I've lost count of the number of 'invisible' devils I've killed this way.

The only thing At-Will means is that there isn't a limit to the number of times they can use it in any given day. It still takes them a standard action to use it, which means that they have to act, and most (if not all) of the effects that have been mentioned above should prevent them from using the teleport ability.

Roland_D'Arabel
08-06-2008, 09:36 AM
Also I'm rather strongly suspect that all that teleporting around is a source of LAG for many clients.

Not to mention how many times devils spawning inside walls or outside of the Shroud arena in part 4 have lessened our gameplay experience
and wasted our time.

Missing_Minds
08-06-2008, 10:08 AM
The only thing At-Will means is that there isn't a limit to the number of times they can use it in any given day. It still takes them a standard action to use it, which means that they have to act, and most (if not all) of the effects that have been mentioned above should prevent them from using the teleport ability.

Gennerik, in pnp, once your turn is over, how often could you teleport then? None? Exactly. You couldn't teleport again till it was your turn again. Hence, the days were over. I used an old saying, not a times per day reference.

Solmage
08-06-2008, 10:18 AM
Reasons, per the SRD, to stop the silly devils from jumping all over the place:

- Flesh to stone is supposed to kill the target for all practical purposes. There is no mind left to take any actions until the effect is reversed.
- Any of the dancing spells: The spell effect makes it impossible for the subject to do anything other than caper and prance in place
- Hold monster: It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity)

Rephrased for Clarity:
Flesh to stone: You're a statue, you have no actions.
Hold Monster: The only action you're allowed is to make a will save each round
Dancing: The only action you're allowed is dancing. You cannot take ANY other action, mental or otherwise.

Reasons, per DDO gameplay:

- It is extremely annoying. It really really is.
- It sabotages our active combat system, taking skill from it and making it just a game of chance. You have about the same chance of hitting a devil standing around swinging wildly than trying to chase it.
- It causes quite a bit of lag to suddenly have 10 or so devils teleporting every second.

Fixes:

- Make the devils and orthons unable to teleport when under the effects of the those spells.
- Add a cooldown to their teleporting AND random aggro switching ability. It's ok for them all to suddenly decide to have a delicious caster buffet, but let them actually try to kill him for at least 6-10 seconds instead of just popping in to say hi and leave the mostly intact caster as they teleport back to the melee.

MrWizard
08-06-2008, 10:43 AM
cripple....marked decrease in teleporting.
sure tendon slice would work too.

Sue_Dark
08-06-2008, 11:04 AM
Dun care about PnP rules too much anymore. I play DDO, not PnP D&D.

That said, Teleporting critters using an at will effect.... feeblemind? what does your will tell you to do then?
Others have mentioned other spells, so I wont.

I like to cooldown timer idea. Darn near everything the PC can do has a timer. Be nice to see some of the mobs suffer this as well. I'd personally love to see mobs given the same spell timers as PC for any SPELL they use. If it is an ability (non-spell, but spell-like) then adjust the timer accordingly.


And please do something about all the exploiting these devils do. I mean i'd be banned if I found a way to make myself completely immune to their attacks. Why shouldnt they get nerf'd and lose their ability to teleport inside of walls/trees/etc. (IIRC- teleporting into a solid object was effectively death, tho I could be behind the times)

Alavatar
08-14-2008, 05:27 PM
Good stuff. I agree with all of the above.

Vengenance
08-14-2008, 05:36 PM
I'd be happy if the devils and orthons would refrain from teleporting inside walls. I agree with the other suggestions as well, but having them get stuck inside walls for long periods of time is the must frustrating thing for me at the moment.

Paragon
08-14-2008, 06:01 PM
Reasons, per DDO gameplay:

- It is extremely annoying. It really really is.
- It sabotages our active combat system, taking skill from it and making it just a game of chance. You have about the same chance of hitting a devil standing around swinging wildly than trying to chase it.
- It causes quite a bit of lag to suddenly have 10 or so devils teleporting every second.

Fixes:

- Make the devils and orthons unable to teleport when under the effects of the those spells.
- Add a cooldown to their teleporting AND random aggro switching ability. It's ok for them all to suddenly decide to have a delicious caster buffet, but let them actually try to kill him for at least 6-10 seconds instead of just popping in to say hi and leave the mostly intact caster as they teleport back to the melee.

QFT

Whether you care about pnp rules or not, the way the devils and orthons misuse teleport in this game is completely destructive to gameplay, the combat system (melee AND ranged), and any attempts to cast spells on them. The only viable option to take on groups of them is by having everyone stand in one spot and swing wildly at the air.

Devils should definitely have a cooldown of about 10-15 seconds on their teleport (same as cooldowns on things like trip, stunning blow, etc. for players). They should not be able to teleport without line-of-sight to where they're going. Also, they should not use teleport except to close distance to far away targets.

VirieSquichie
08-14-2008, 06:33 PM
(IIRC- teleporting into a solid object was effectively death, tho I could be behind the times)

Yep, teleporting into an object is supposed to kill you...

If the teleport code was modified so the proposed landing site was checked for a viable path to an enemy, any enemy, and the landing site was discarded and rechosen if there was no path, it would solve the teleporting into walls issue. I haven't seen any PCs manage to get into walls yet, at least.

The frequent teleporting wouldn't be so bad if, as others have said, they hung around at their new victim for long enough to be dangerous there. As it is, teleporting away after just one attack is unlikely to have advanced the outsider's goal of wiping the party off the map. Even most casters can take a single devil/orthon hit and keep breathing.

Turial
08-14-2008, 09:44 PM
QFT

Whether you care about pnp rules or not, the way the devils and orthons misuse teleport in this game is completely destructive to gameplay, the combat system (melee AND ranged), and any attempts to cast spells on them. The only viable option to take on groups of them is by having everyone stand in one spot and swing wildly at the air.

Devils should definitely have a cooldown of about 10-15 seconds on their teleport (same as cooldowns on things like trip, stunning blow, etc. for players). They should not be able to teleport without line-of-sight to where they're going. Also, they should not use teleport except to close distance to far away targets.

You would think that issues that players have had with phasing mobs since the beginning of the game would have been considered in determining the frequency of teleports a mob can make in a second.