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iruka41
08-05-2008, 11:55 AM
Now, with the Monk implementation and the +8 Armor Barcer, Icy Remnants,
High-DEX, mid-WIS chatacter can now have the highest AC possible.
(Halfling 1Monk/15Ranger, for example)

I'm not gonna complain this because 'reflex means dodge'. They CAN have higher AC.
So I'm thinking the other way.

The only 'defensive' weakness of those DEX-AC builds are DR, right?
So that could be S/B's pros then.
Here's my suggestion:


Greater Shield Mastery - Enhancement (Edited with comments, thoughts)

Pre-req:
All of these: Shield Proficiency, Improved Shield Mastery, Combat Expertise
One of these: Fighter Level 8, Paladin Level 8

Action point cost: 4

Description:
Lets you to maintain 1/3 of your Active-Blocking DR even while not in an active-block mode.
Your defensive mode (i.e. CE) also grants 30% chance to negate negative effects from special attacks from mobs.
*It only applies to the mobs in front of you.*

Edit1: I agree. Lets make it a half-DR of active blocks to make it realsitic :) -> Yeah lets make it 30% even.
Edit2: This feat also grants 50% chance to negate special attacks (i.e. Trip) from enemy. -> And this too, into 30%
Edit3: Switched the pre-req Improved Shield Bash with Combat Expertise, to be more reasonable.
Edit4: Made it an Enhancement instead of a Feat, can be some class specialty for S/B fighters/paladins :)

Comment1: I mean, S/B's benefit should be defensive right? But there's so little choice related!
Comment2: Barbarians left behind because I think Barbs should be improved thru some offensive way, not this way.


Heavy pre-req, also with penalty to directions. So it won't break the game at all I guess.
That way, you might have lower AC than those DEX-TWFters , but you'll have higher DR.
Which makes sense to me cause thick plates are hard to penetrate.

How do you guys think about this idea? :)

Angelus_dead
08-05-2008, 11:59 AM
How do you guys think about this idea? :)
Some kind of feat allowing a shield to grant passive DR would be good, but bringing it up to blocking levels is way way too much.

A better approach would be a feat with lower prereq which gives you 1/2 your shield's Shield AC bonus as constant DR. For a +5 Tower that would mean DR 4. That DR would stack with your ordinary passive DR from adamantine armor or whatever.

Laith
08-05-2008, 12:03 PM
Some kind of feat allowing a shield to grant passive DR would be good, but bringing it up to blocking levels is way way too much.

A better approach would be a feat with lower prereq which gives you 1/2 your shield's Shield AC bonus as constant DR. For a +5 Tower that would mean DR 4. That DR would stack with your ordinary passive DR from adamantine armor or whatever.

i agree: the concept is great, but the numbers are off.
Afterall, my blocking DR is 25 (feats + 16BAB +5tower)... and that's not the max attainable at all (there are pretty new raid shields).

Also, there would have to be a stipulation that ONLY DR is applied passively, not the ability to block special attacks. that should always require active-blocking.

Ghoste
08-05-2008, 12:03 PM
Some kind of feat allowing a shield to grant passive DR would be good, but bringing it up to blocking levels is way way too much.
I absolutely agree. You'd have warforged tanks running around with DR 40's/- and for short bursts in the 50's.

The directional issue could easily be handled by fighting with your back in a corner.

iruka41
08-05-2008, 12:06 PM
Hehe I have to admit. My build's looking at the final DR of 49. Agreed on overkill.

So how about half? That would be like 20s for the most high DR builds out there. :)

Will edit the OP too.

iruka41
08-05-2008, 12:10 PM
The directional issue could easily be handled by fighting with your back in a corner.

Agreed with the most concerns.
However I think it's a reasonable tactic to be against walls when tanking. Isn't it? :)
Think it as a 'you need tactics to use this ability' instead of 'meaningless penalty'.

Strumpoo
08-05-2008, 12:10 PM
Sure.


As long as you up the barbarians DR to scale with this new feat.


After all they are the DR class since they get it as a class ability...

It wouldn't make sense to have a 10th level fighter walking around with a perma 20 DR, while the 16th level Barb is stuck at 7...

Laith
08-05-2008, 12:12 PM
Sure.


As long as you up the barbarians DR to scale with this new feat.
if he wears a shield, i don't see why not.

...of course, this ability (as written) costs 4 feats...

iruka41
08-05-2008, 12:13 PM
Also, there would have to be a stipulation that ONLY DR is applied passively, not the ability to block special attacks. that should always require active-blocking.

Never thought about that, thanks for your input.
As a line of Half-DR, how about a 50% chance to negate special attacks from enemy?

Will edit OP for that too.

Laith
08-05-2008, 12:18 PM
Never thought about that, thanks for your input.
As a line of Half-DR, how about a 50% chance to negate special attacks from enemy?

Will edit OP for that too.

missed the part where i said that special attacks should ONLY be blocked with active-block, eh? :)

personally, i think it'd work if it was:

1/3 blocking DR and no special effect blocking
OR
1/2 shield AC as DR and no special effect blocking (with fewer prereqs. A_D's idea exactly.)

edit: another problem with this whole thing is that it makes one of the most complicated mechanics in the game even MORE complicated...

iruka41
08-05-2008, 12:18 PM
if he wears a shield, i don't see why not.

...of course, this ability (as written) costs 4 feats...

Yup. Needs investment to get benefit, for everyone.

Even though Barbs hav to have lower DR due to the heavy pre-req.,
while the barbarian deals super DPS, this DR20 toon will still be S/B.
Isn't it fair enough?

iruka41
08-05-2008, 12:26 PM
missed the part where i said that special attacks should ONLY be blocked with active-block, eh? :)

personally, i think it'd work if it was:

1/3 blocking DR and no special effect blocking
OR
1/2 shield AC as DR and no special effect blocking (with fewer prereqs. A_D's idea exactly.)

Darn I'm not good at English you know :) (Not my first language lol)

Hmm. The idea was to grant benefit of Active-Blocking as a passive.
So I was thinking those 50% rate would be fair enough.

There's already similar exceptional ability for Acrobatic Rogues right? (100% Immunity to Knockdowns/Slips)

Laith
08-05-2008, 12:29 PM
There's already similar exceptional ability for Acrobatic Rogues right? (100% Immunity to Knockdowns/Slips)
"special attacks" include alot more than trip and sunder.

Most monsters have "special attacks" that are sometimes denoted by unique animations.
These attacks might just add a little extra damage (or maybe crit chance as it seems with troll charge), but when you active block them, a shield icon pops above your head (this doesn't happen on every swing, which is how we know it denotes "special attacks").

if i recall: wight level drain, wraith con drain, overrun, definately giant knockdown (which is now AC based not a trip roll), and many others are considered "special attacks" and are ignored by active-blocking.

iruka41
08-05-2008, 12:43 PM
"special attacks" include alot more than trip and sunder.

Most monsters have "special attacks" that are sometimes denoted by unique animations.
These attacks might just add a little extra damage (or maybe crit chance as it seems with troll charge), but when you active block them, a shield icon pops above your head (this doesn't happen on every swing, which is how we know it denotes "special attacks").

if i recall: wight level drain, wraith con drain, overrun, definately giant knockdown (which is now AC based not a trip roll), and many others are considered "special attacks" and are ignored by active-blocking.

True, and that's why I said 'similar'.
While the Acrobat is just an enhancement (which grants more benefits also),
this is kinda feat-lines which is more difficult to attain, something like Spring Attack, Whirlwind, Shot on the Run, etc.
So I guessed it's fair enough to grant more benefits than enhancements.

I thought S/B tanks can be by far effectively defensive to those DEX-based AC builds in that way.
(Cause if you have higher AC as a DEX-build, then it's like automatic +% negates isn't it?)

Appreciate your input definately :D

Strumpoo
08-05-2008, 01:22 PM
if he wears a shield, i don't see why not.

...of course, this ability (as written) costs 4 feats...


These are feats the barbo doesn't have to spare. And the fighter can easily spare.

I didn't say the barb should have the highest DR, but if they are walking around with 7DR (using 2 enhancements) while the fighters are at 20, it doesn't make sense.

The class ability of the barb is to be able to absorb huge punishment and shrug off a portion of it thanks to their inherent toughness. They shouldn't have to take 4 feats to be tough like this, they just are.

I think the OP is onto a good idea, I just would like to see a little scaling on the orginial DR class if the other classes are going to get a DR boost.

Maybe bump the Barbs class DR to 10-12 or so. That way someone with all the shield feats still gets a higher DR, just not so disparingly.

Zaodon
08-05-2008, 01:34 PM
Hehe I have to admit. My build's looking at the final DR of 49. Agreed on overkill.

So how about half? That would be like 20s for the most high DR builds out there. :)

Will edit the OP too.

How do you get to 49 DR?

Just curious.

iruka41
08-05-2008, 01:37 PM
These are feats the barbo doesn't have to spare. And the fighter can easily spare.

I didn't say the barb should have the highest DR, but if they are walking around with 7DR (using 2 enhancements) while the fighters are at 20, it doesn't make sense.

The class ability of the barb is to be able to absorb huge punishment and shrug off a portion of it thanks to their inherent toughness. They shouldn't have to take 4 feats to be tough like this, they just are.

I think the OP is onto a good idea, I just would like to see a little scaling on the orginial DR class if the other classes are going to get a DR boost.

Maybe bump the Barbs class DR to 10-12 or so. That way someone with all the shield feats still gets a higher DR, just not so disparingly.

Agreed with that Barbs needs more DR. Mobs are hitting so much more than PnP but barb's DR in DDO doesn't scale like that.

On a different point of view though, Barbs gets DR-like ability by having way higher HP than Fighters.
And Fighters are generally an open-template. While Barb's general role is DPS, Fighter's can be DPS, or AC, DR, Tactics, anything. And I think that's the point of being a Fighter.

Besides that, if a barbarian is considering only his or her Crit Rage II, he can always multiclass with Fighter levels to get more feats to spare for more DPS, or more DR, right? :D (Not to mention that pure barb's DPS is lower than multiclass)

iruka41
08-05-2008, 01:39 PM
How do you get to 49 DR?

Just curious.

That's considering consistant Stoneskins :)
Otherwise my build'll sit at 39.

Laith
08-05-2008, 01:57 PM
These are feats the barbo doesn't have to spare. And the fighter can easily spare.

I didn't say the barb should have the highest DR, but if they are walking around with 7DR (using 2 enhancements) while the fighters are at 20, it doesn't make sense.i've stated my problems with the numbers used in this suggestion.

A_Ds modification CAPS OUT at +4 DR until you add in epic items or non-standard D&D additions that might not be considered (alchemical AC bonus for example). That means that at best, a fighter is walking around with 9/- DR (5/- DR from bloodrage symbiont or certain named fullplates).
Personally, i think that would be good enough to require Improved Shield Mastery (2 prereq feats), but not Improved Shield Bash (a third prereq feat).

My suggestion, with OP prereqs, was to allow at most 1/3 blocking DR as a passive bonus, but i'm starting to think that even that is too much.
1/3 of ~30 (a high blocking DR these days) is ~10 stacking DR.
That's alot. Probably too much.

Also, when i say "blocking DR" i'm not including any form of passive DR (which might be different than how the OP's adding things).

When you block, you add the number on your inventory screen ("Blocking DR") plus your 1 most appropriate form of "passive DR" (on your character sheet or buffbar).

Blocking DR is based on BAB, shield +, shield type, feats, and dwarf enhancements. I'm guessing a well geared and properly specced dwarf can hit about 36 blocking DR these days.
Passive DR is item, class (barbarian), spell (ironsong, barkskin), or race/feat (WF) based.

Kromize
08-06-2008, 04:19 AM
I think it could go well as an enhancement line. Don't care either way. But there needs to be an improvement for SnB. One that gives more ac from shields, and a passive dr, because cmon, if your using a shield, don't tell me you aren't using it to block unless you stand still...

You could get the feat, and then have an enhancement line open up, I think that would be good. But for the feat, why would imp shield bash be a preq? Makes no sense.

Also, add enhancement line for just improved shield mastery too.

Just my thoughts...very very awesome thoughts. :cool:

Cold_Stele
08-06-2008, 04:31 AM
As long as you up the barbarians DR to scale with this new feat.

Yeh right - cos Barbs need some love from the devs right now, they're so gimp.

You're aware that a S&B Pally or Ftr with all the defensive feats and uber raid loot can't match the AC of Ranger/Monk right? And the Ranger/Monk will be dual wielding whilst they're maintaining that AC...

maddmatt70
08-06-2008, 04:33 AM
So excuse me if I am misunderstanding this, but isn't this very pro-barbarian. If rangers get the highest ac and barbarians get the highest dr and with a new passive dr and since both these groups do the highest dps where does this leave fighters and paladins.

Cold_Stele
08-06-2008, 04:48 AM
where does this leave fighters and paladins.

Screwed.

Same place as now...

Aesop
08-06-2008, 05:23 AM
Armor Specialization is a Feat out of the Player's Handbook II
Requires BAB +12
Grant DR 2/- with that type of Armor (I think that armors that have a natural DR/- should stack with this ie Adamantine Full Plate would become DR5/-)


Shield Specialization; a Feat out of the Player's Handbook II
Grants +1 AC when using Shields (and is a prerequisite for other Feat)

Active Shield Defense; a Feat out of the Player's Handbook II
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the ability to make AoO while Fighting Defensively without Penalty
Maybe Modify this to DDO to apply the Shield's DR bonus while Fighting Defensively or using CE since we don't have AoOs

Shield Ward; a Feat out of the Player's Handbook II
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the shields AC bonus to touch AC, and a bonus to resist Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip, Disarm and Grapple
even just as a bonus to Resist Overrun and Trip may be nice... maybe to Crippled etc would be a good addition for DDO


Combat Focus;a Feat out of the Player's Handbook II
requires a Wisdom score of 13
Grants a limited duration (10 rounds +1/Combat Form Feat) Combat Focus. This Grants a +2 to Will Saves. If you have 3 or more Combat Form Feat the bonus increases to 4. Combat Focus is also the Prerequisite for other Combat Form Feats. Those Feat improve the benefits of the Combat Focus.

Combat Stability a Combat Form Feat
Requires BAB+3 Combat Focus
Grants a +4 to resist Bull Rush Trip etc (Increase to +8 with 3+ Combat Form Feat)

Combat Defense
Requires BAB +6 Dodge and Combat Focus
Allows you to Switch your Dodge Target as an Immediate action (increase Dodge bonus by +1 with 3+ Combat Form Feats)
Modify for DDO to Grant an Additional +1 Dodge AC and +2 with 3+ Combat Form Feat

Combat Vigor
Requires BAB +9 Comabt Focus
Gain Fast Healing 2 while Focused (4 with 3+ Combat Form Feat)

Combat Awareness
Requires BAB+12 Combat Focus and Blingd Fighting
Gain Knowledge of the Health of Adjacent Creatures (3+ Combat Form Feat grant Blindsight 5')
not sure how to Modify this... its early dang it

Combat Strike
Requires BAB +15 Combat Focus 2 other Combat Form Feat
Grants the ability to expend your Focus to gain a bonus to attack and damage = to number of Combat Form Feats for the current turn
Modify to just grant a Bonus to Damage while in Combat Focus +2



I think those woluld be nice additions to the Feat pool

Aesop

Strumpoo
08-06-2008, 08:37 AM
Yeh right - cos Barbs need some love from the devs right now, they're so gimp.

You're aware that a S&B Pally or Ftr with all the defensive feats and uber raid loot can't match the AC of Ranger/Monk right? And the Ranger/Monk will be dual wielding whilst they're maintaining that AC...

Rangers can dual wield?

Yes, because 400-600 point smites, saves in the high 30's, and a 60 AC are gimp...:rolleyes:

Besides, they could make these thing Class Feats for Fighters and Pallies, maybe granted after level 12 or something, so you couldn't just splash to get the feat for free, could also have a pre-req of Shield Mastery or something.

I have stated I don't have a problem with the idea, but I feel that the "inherent" DR class should get a bump as well if suddenly every tank type is running around with 20 DR.

This idea is a direct response to helping the Armored types with their lack of AC compared to high Dex types, I would think the fighters and pallies would LOVE IT!

Borror0
08-06-2008, 08:54 AM
[...] and since both these groups do the highest dps where does this leave fighters and paladins.

Well, the barbarian will have an AC at least 7 points under the fighter and paladin, unless he doesn't rage.

Fighters and paladins will be able to get the DR and the AC at the same time... now is it, enough, I doubt.

Borror0
08-06-2008, 08:55 AM
Yeh right - cos Barbs need some love from the devs right now, they're so gimp.

You're awared that a barbarian is nothnig but a gimped ranger, right now... right?

Angelus_dead
08-06-2008, 08:56 AM
You're awared that a barbarian is nothnig but a gimped ranger, right now... right?
Give them both wounding-puncturing and see who gets more kills...

Borror0
08-06-2008, 09:24 AM
Give them both wounding-puncturing and see who gets more kills...

So? Do you really think it out-weights the other bonuses?

Cold_Stele
08-06-2008, 09:30 AM
Yes, because 400-600 point smites, saves in the high 30's, and a 60 AC are gimp...:rolleyes:


Are you seriously saying that Ftrs and Pallies don't need some love, or you are you saying that you think they should get it but Barbs have got to get even better too. That's only fair right? It's not like we have anything breaking the game right noe like Crit Rage is it?

debo
08-06-2008, 09:38 AM
Screwed.

Same place as now...

lol

Are you saying Fghters and Palidans are a bunch of wankers?

:)

Gennerik
08-06-2008, 09:49 AM
Maybe you can look at it this way. Fighters that use a shield are often using combat tactic abilities as well. That's how they can kill things effectively. But look at the "bosses" in DDO. They are all immune to combat tactics, most hit an AC of the low 50's all the time, and they have a ton of HP. Yeah, Paladins can Smite Evil and get 400+ damage, but they still have to get a critical, and after the 7 or 8 times, then they go back to dealing horrible damage. Combat Tactics Fighters don't even get that, since they can't trip or stun a boss, so they just deal small amounts of damage all the time when using a shield. It would be nice to have a reason to have a reason to have them in the party for the entire quest instead of just to get to the boss. Even if the feat is a combat stance that you get -5 to hit and get half your DR passively, it would still be nice to have a reason to not pull out the bow during fights just because everything hits you and you just become a waste of SP to keep alive.

Strumpoo
08-06-2008, 10:01 AM
Are you seriously saying that Ftrs and Pallies don't need some love, or you are you saying that you think they should get it but Barbs have got to get even better too. That's only fair right? It's not like we have anything breaking the game right noe like Crit Rage is it?


Nope, not saying they couldn't use some help. But it is coming. The devs have said the next thing they are looking into is some sort of enhancements to the fighters line. To me that means "fighter love", such as a kind of prestige classes or something.

Pallies have gotten a boost in the last mod, and I think they are getting another in the next, from what I have been reading.

I have run with plenty of pallies and fighters who are no where near GIMPED.. Maybe you need to look at a different spec or feat set to your build or something? If you want to be a DPS machine, you aren't going to build a pally are you? Nope, you are going to build a Barb or, more often now, a tempest ranger.

If you want a build who is ultra survivable and can still deal out burst damage you build a pally or a defensive feat specd fighter, like a Warforged with 25-30 DR..


And yes, if Fighters and Pallies get some huge DR boost, I think it is only fair that the CLASS WHO GETS DR AS A INHERENT CLASS FEAT, get a DR boost as well.

iruka41
08-06-2008, 10:12 AM
A lot of points taken from previous replies. Thanks for yout thoughts.

Combining Enhancement system would be a nice choice, makes the build more interesting :)
Removing Imp. Shield Bashing is a nice idea, I agree, but I just wanted to make this feat a not-easy-to-get one.
So with some suggestions above now I'm thinking of switching it into Combat Expertise.
So it can be Imp. Shield Mastery + CE to get the Greater Shield Mastery (or whatever name it is) :)

Will edit some of the OP.
Love to hear from you :)

About the gimped barbarian class comments, I think it should be solved in a different way.
Of course barbs should have DR, but the most important point now is that Barbs don't get enough DPS compared to Rangers isn't it? Barbs should have dropped defensive ability to become more aggressive, at least I think so. So the solution for barbs should be some kind of DPS improvedment, not the DR issue.

Borror0
08-06-2008, 10:16 AM
Fighters that use a shield are often using combat tactic abilities as well. That's how they can kill things effectively.

That's not true.

Fighter using a shield are not using tactics.
Barbarians are better with tactics than fighters. Anything in that direction would make barbarians better, not only fighters.
Fighter going for DPS will still remain inferior to barbarians, whatever you do in that direction.

Saying that a fighter is a tractician/strategist is a common mistake.

Currently a fighter is... er... nothing.

iruka41
08-06-2008, 10:44 AM
That's not true.

Fighter using a shield are not using tactics.
Barbarians are better with tactics than fighters. Anything in that direction would make barbarians better, not only fighters.
Fighter going for DPS will still remain inferior to barbarians, whatever you do in that direction.Saying that a fighter is a tractician/strategist is a common mistake.

Currently a fighter is... er... nothing.

Agreed. Dwarven/WF 4fighter/12barbarians will get the highest tactics DC. (Maxed STR with Fighter Strategy II)

Among TWF/THF/S&B/Ranged, I want to see the characteristics of classes in this way:
Ragers are TWF/Ranged specialist, Barbs are TWF/THF specialist, Paladins are S&B specialist, and Fighters, should be able to become ANY one of the above with their choice of Feats. And even for paladins, S&B specializing SHOULD be worth the others. That will be the main purpose of the OP. :) Because everyone will agree that the S&B is the weakest playstyle after Monks have introduced (Along with Icy Remnants)

Borror0
08-06-2008, 11:04 AM
Among TWF/THF/S&B/Ranged, I want to see the characteristics of classes in this way:
Ragers are TWF/Ranged specialist, Barbs are TWF/THF specialist, Paladins are S&B specialist, and Fighters, should be able to become ANY one of the above with their choice of Feats. And even for paladins, S&B specializing SHOULD be worth the others. That will be the main purpose of the OP. :) Because everyone will agree that the S&B is the weakest playstyle after Monks have introduced (Along with Icy Remnants)
I slightly differ.

Rangers are TWF/Ranged specialist.

Barbarians are offense specilists. they're the ones doing most damage. So yeah, pretty much TWF/THF specialist.

Fighters are limited by nothing and the three options should be equally attractive.

It's paladins we differ on. To my eyes, paladins are defense specialists. Yes, S&B is a logic choice... but defense is more than AC. I don't want to see paladins being tagged as S&B specialists... because it would make them even weaker than now. One of the reasons they are so weak, is that they have been tagged as an AC class. Same for fighter and monk... and by some random circumstance, they are the three weakest melee class in the whole game. AC isn't everyone can get. Making a class a S&B class is an horrible idea.

iruka41
08-06-2008, 02:20 PM
It's paladins we differ on. To my eyes, paladins are defense specialists. Yes, S&B is a logic choice... but defense is more than AC. I don't want to see paladins being tagged as S&B specialists... because it would make them even weaker than now. One of the reasons they are so weak, is that they have been tagged as an AC class. Same for fighter and monk... and by some random circumstance, they are the three weakest melee class in the whole game. AC isn't everyone can get. Making a class a S&B class is an horrible idea.

Good to know we agreed on most of the part :)
About S/B Paladins, IF S/B WERE GOOD ENOUGH, it shouldn't be a matter isn't it? Paladins could have been proud to be a S/B if it were better than now. The problem here is S/B is not much attractive because it doesn't make us the most defensive toon. Yeah, I think the S/B should get the credit for 'the most defensive' but current game is somehow different from my thought :< Even just because high AC doesn't always mean the whole 'defensive' idea, S/B should be more defensive than DEX/WIS TWF combo. (Also to be balanced too)

Well, more DPS from S/B will solve the problem too, maybe we can get a single attack both with the sword and the board at the same time. Or we can apply our BAB progress, Bludgeoning Feats, special attacks, etc. to our shields. (Currently who cares about the shield bash? Why is it even there? Even with the best bashing shield, it's still gimped. :() I can see many more interesting suggestions could be made. I just gave mine here :)

Borror0
08-06-2008, 02:41 PM
Good to know we agreed on most of the part :)

Always fun, isn't it? ;)


About S/B Paladins, IF S/B WERE GOOD ENOUGH, it shouldn't be a matter isn't it?

Actually, it would.

It's always nice to have more options. Every other class has at least two build options:

Barbarian: ThF or TwF
Bard: CC, Healing, Warchanter (ThF or Twf)
Cleric: Healbot, Offensive spellcasting, Battle cleric
Fighter: S&B, ThF or TwF
Monk: Handwraps, Kama (TwF) or Quaterstaff (ThF)... with a variant AC focus
Ranger: TwF or Ranged
Rogue: S&B or TwF
Sorcerer and wizard can vary a lot in playstyle and build.

By forcing a class down to S&B, it makes it pretty much one dimensional class with not much variation.

How aberent is the image of a paladin going beserk for his god?


Yeah, I think the S/B should get the credit for 'the most defensive' but current game is somehow different from my thought :< Even just because high AC doesn't always mean the whole 'defensive' idea, S/B should be more defensive than DEX/WIS TWF combo. (Also to be balanced too)

We agree on this.


Well, more DPS from S/B will solve the problem too.

Partly, but not totally. They would still need 'more than just more DPS'.

I'm thinking more and more of giving S&B a bonus upon reaching BAB 11 (which is pretty much where the gap between S&B and the other fighting style becomes too great, this bonus could also be given to handwraps). I'm think of a 1.25 factor to their Str bonus to damage. ThF got 1.5, so between the current and ThF would be a good deal. That's a +2-3 Str freebee for S&B.


Currently who cares about the shield bash?

I do... I wish I could turn it off.:D

Ralmeth
08-06-2008, 02:59 PM
I do... I wish I could turn it off.:D

Me too! I hate when I accidentally shield bash. It does little damage and makes the most annoying grunt;)

Seriously, and just to step back a moment. It's just wrong that someone with no armor on can have a much better AC than someone in mithral full plate armor & mithral tower shield. I'm all for adding some type of feats or enhancements that will help out us S&B tanks.

iruka41
08-06-2008, 03:02 PM
I do... I wish I could turn it off.:D

Thought about that for a sec, but hey then we wouldn't be able to know if that WF is male or female !!!

STR bonus x1.25 factor for 1-hander seems like a nice idea, I would like to see x1.5 factor on 'shieldless' 1-hander too :p