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View Full Version : Hoping for more info about skill/alignment respect from DDOcast comments.



redoubt
08-01-2008, 06:30 PM
In the DDOcast there is a question about alignment and skill respec that was kind of addressed. I was wondering if we could get some clarification. Maybe if we split the question into two parts?

1. Can we get an Alignment respec? This one was commented that it might be easier than doing the skill respec. Do you (turbine) think it is? Is this a possibility. There are certainly those who play who do not want it, but most threads seem to show a large margin in favor of this. I for one would really like it.

2. Can we get a Skill respec?

Finally, I'm interested in more information about the hiccup comment: "...one big hiccup in that just the amount of time it would take to add a real respec feature for a partial reroll." Are you considering some other type of reroll system?

Please note, I am asking because I understand that not every concept mentioned can go to development and rather than assume too many things and later be disappointed, I thought I would just ask.

The passage from DDOcast is copied below for reference.

Thank you!


Qoute:
All right, lets move on to the next question here. This person by the name of Mechfol asks, “We currently have mechanisms in place to respec both enhancements and feats. We can also rename characters and switch servers. These were all originally designed to be permanent aspects of character creation, but through the benevolence of Devs, and in the interest of player enjoyment, we are allowed to pay Turbine or Fred for the changes.

However, I would like you to consider two additional aspects of character creation and perhaps have Fred expand his services: alignment and skills. Many of us regret our alignment and/or skill choices, or have changed the focus of our characters such as a different enhancement way.”

So I guess in general do we think it possible to have alignment or skill respecs in the future?

Glin: We’ve explored all the obvious challenges on the back end for doing that. Multi-classing adds a whole layer of complexity to a lot of the options that are ideal. That’s not necessarily the final answer, I’m sure that somebody else could speak to that, but I know from our discussions that’s one big hiccup in that just the amount of time it would take to add a real respec feature for a partial reroll.
Jerry: I imagine alignment would be significantly easier than skills.

Glin: Yeah. Just have to find a willing priest to convert you.

Jerry: We could just have a system like “Do you listen to heavy metal music?” All of a sudden you’re no longer lawful good.

Glin: Right. Yeah, answer the questions correctly and we’ll covert you to our newly formed alignment.

Tolero: What is your name?! What is your quest?! What is the air speed velocity of a throwing hammer?!

Mockduck
08-02-2008, 02:04 PM
Obviously I'm not a dev, but my understanding about that comment was that it would take quite a bit of time to program the respeccing of skills because the system would need to have a more comprehensive understanding of multiclassing and levelling up than it currently does.

I think right now it says "What class is being levelled up?" If it's a cleric, for example, it makes the heal skill, etc available as a class skill, meaning it's easier to put points into it. If you multiclass the next level by taking a level of rogue, it makes the rogue skills available to you for that level, etc.

In order to respec skills for a 16th level character, for example, the game would need to comprehensively know "Okay, you've got one level of rogue, meaning you'll have "X" amount of points to put into rogue skills, and "X" amount of "Cleric skill points" based on your cleric levels, etc. And it would need to know that you put some points into off-class skills, at 8th level, for example. Right now I don't think the game has that level of knowledge about your history. I could be wrong, though.

redoubt
08-02-2008, 06:50 PM
Absolutely. The system would have to have you pick skills one level at a time so that in-class and cross class could be done correctly. I agree that a skill respec could be very tricky. That's why I wanted to split the question.

I'm really hoping to get some info on alignment respec without having to tie it to the skill respec. It would seem that this would be much easier. A similar mechanic exists already. Everytime we multi-class the system has to make sure we are taking a class that our alignment allows us to take. That is why a barb who goes to multi-class into palidin will be turned away.

If a Paladin asked to change alignment the system says: no.

If a barb asked to change alignment the system notes that a barb must be non-lawful. Therefore the system presents:
a. N-G
b. N-N
c. C-G
d. C-N
as the options for alignment respec.

Angelus_dead
08-02-2008, 07:06 PM
And it would need to know that you put some points into off-class skills, at 8th level, for example. Right now I don't think the game has that level of knowledge about your history. I could be wrong, though.
That's untrue. That amount of information is not required in order to accomplish skill respecs. All you actually need is his total levels in each class.

DaveyCrockett
08-02-2008, 07:33 PM
That's untrue. That amount of information is not required in order to accomplish skill respecs. All you actually need is his total levels in each class.

You wouldn't need to take +2 INT tomes and level-ups in INT into consideration? :confused:

Mockduck
08-02-2008, 11:26 PM
That's untrue. That amount of information is not required in order to accomplish skill respecs. All you actually need is his total levels in each class.

Good point. I stand corrected. But wouldn't it need to know what you put into which skill at which level? Unless we were talking about a complete character respec from level 1 on up as the only option for skill respeccing. If, for example, you just wanted to respec your UMD skill, wouldn't the game need to know that you put in two points when you were a rogue and one half point when you were a cleric? I don't think the game tracks that information now, which would make implementing respecs for current characters pretty near impossible.

Lithic
08-03-2008, 12:18 AM
Good point. I stand corrected. But wouldn't it need to know what you put into which skill at which level? Unless we were talking about a complete character respec from level 1 on up as the only option for skill respeccing. If, for example, you just wanted to respec your UMD skill, wouldn't the game need to know that you put in two points when you were a rogue and one half point when you were a cleric? I don't think the game tracks that information now, which would make implementing respecs for current characters pretty near impossible.

Since you are respeccing, when you put points into what doesnt matter. You would start with no skills anywhere as ClassA and put those points where you now want them, then do lvl 2, then three and so on. The game seems to keep track of which classes where taken at each level (at least it seems to according to the feat respeccing of fred), and assuming that information is available a complete skill respec is easy...

BUT! The problem is the int tomes and level up in int skills. That complicates things massively. The game definately doesnt keep track of the int tomes (You can respec combat expertise as your lvl 3 feat even if you get a +3 int tome to qualify at lvl 16), and may not keep track of your level-up points either.

Kromize
08-04-2008, 05:45 AM
A few of my thoughts:

I do not believe there is a memory system in the game that keeps track of which level you have used tomes, or attribute points during a level. That being so, it's impossible to have an accurate skill respec... If they do have a memory system like that in place, it would be possible, letting you repeat the skills from each level(I beleive). I'm not certain, but do you get extra skill points for taking rogue or something at first level than just any other level? If so, then there would need to be a memory system that kept track of whne you took each level of each class too, once again making the respec accuracy impossible.

That being said, here is my idea for a skill respec system:
You talk to fred, and have him erase your body's memory, effectively wiping your skills. You then get to re-train your skills, with whatever your int bonus is***. I do realize this will give people the ability to get more skill points then they should have, but I don't think it could possibly be game breaking...A few extra skill points never hurt anyone...:cool:


***so, if u used a +2 tome at 16...it would count as if you had used it at 1, and about ability points, if your base int is above the max possible base, then reduce it to the the max possible base, I see that is you started with 16, and used all 4 ability points to get it to 20, it would reduce to 18, it's a flaw, but not that big of one..

keep in mind, this is only if the game keeps no memory of when you took levels of what lass, or when you used ability points or tomes...

Pyromaniac
08-04-2008, 06:06 AM
A radical idea here - they could just give us the benefit of the doubt and assume +2 int tome was eaten at level 2, and +3 int tome was eaten at maybe level 10 (assuming reaver ready around then though yes I know its possible earlier). Or just assume all tomes were eaten at level 1 and any int level up points were done as early as possible.

The extra skill points making the early int tome assumption would generate for some toons isn't exactly gamebreaking.

Aesop
08-04-2008, 06:06 AM
I dunno maybe a complete Lazarus system is inorder


1 mil Plat
10 Strong Good Outsider Soul Stones (boy would "running with the devils" be played a lot)

step into the Lazarus chamber and it brings you to a character creation screen. All tomes count as expended at level 1 (hence the super high cost) and you rebuild from the ground up. when you come out you still have your items and and all the xp you had before and you run around to the various trainers and level up the way you want to from the ground up


Aesop

Missing_Minds
08-04-2008, 04:39 PM
That's untrue. That amount of information is not required in order to accomplish skill respecs. All you actually need is his total levels in each class.

Fighter 2, rogue 2. Respect it.

How many points do I have to spend?
What is my max points I can spend in skills?
How do I separate cross class buying from non cross class buying?

You need a lot more than just total levels if you are going to do it correctly.

QuantumFX
08-05-2008, 12:47 AM
Fighter 2, rogue 2. Respect it.

How many points do I have to spend?
What is my max points I can spend in skills?
How do I separate cross class buying from non cross class buying?

You need a lot more than just total levels if you are going to do it correctly.

Not really. For calculating total skill points the only things A_D was missing in his assessment were:
- Which class was taken first? (If you've ever visited Fred you know that this information does get saved.)
- How did the character's INT score change over the life of the character? (Tomes, Level-ups. Apparently tome information is not saved. Level up info is unknown.)

The only information you need for redistributing skill points is: what class was taken at each character level? (Once again, this information does get saved.) The game already knows how to calculate/spend the correct number of skill points per level. You just have the respec UI follow a format where: you get your points for a level, spend them, hit "next", repeat until the character has reached their current level.

Mockduck
08-05-2008, 06:36 AM
Would people accept a skill respec that only allowed you to start from level one and basically start over? It seems to me that people are asking for a multi-tier skill respec. Respeccing just one skill (repair only), respeccing from level X onward and a total respec.

Missing_Minds
08-05-2008, 07:49 AM
The only information you need for redistributing skill points is: what class was taken at each character level? (Once again, this information does get saved.)

Actually, the last time the devs commented on that, they do not save that info. Hence one of the big issues with a respec.

Hafeal
08-05-2008, 08:01 AM
You wouldn't need to take +2 INT tomes and level-ups in INT into consideration? :confused:

You would.

Of course the skill respec has been subject to other threads. In one, after much debate as I recall, it was concluded that

a) Turbine does not have the data in a usable format or at all;
b) Intelligence tomes really screw things up.

Yes, you could give the "benefit of the doubt" to players but there still would be cries of unfairness. I will look for the prior links.

Ok, found one:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=125670

Zenako
08-05-2008, 08:29 AM
I dunno maybe a complete Lazarus system is inorder
1 mil Plat
10 Strong Good Outsider Soul Stones (boy would "running with the devils" be played a lot)

step into the Lazarus chamber and it brings you to a character creation screen. All tomes count as expended at level 1 (hence the super high cost) and you rebuild from the ground up. when you come out you still have your items and and all the xp you had before and you run around to the various trainers and level up the way you want to from the ground up
Aesop

Interesting idea, but how would you implement for idiot proofing all the gear someone is wearing that will get dropped to inventory due to level requirements. You just know some fools with full backpacks will step into the chamber and end up dropping on the ground 6 raid items and destroying them...:rolleyes: and then listen to the cries...

Fred does know what class and level your FEATS were taken at, since it flags the FEAT with that info from what I see. That however might not be all that clean to extract from the database and it would leave gaps in the progression of levels.

While we would like to hope for fair players, if the order of classes taken was not accurately known, then it would be possible to build a character one way for surviving up to end game and then completely revamp that toon and end up with tons more Skill points then. Drop one level of Rogue along the way for example. Now in the rebuild start with rogue and the improved INT from Tomes and you end up with (lets say only +15 Skill points from better INT at 15 level ups, and 28 more skill points to start with at level 1 (+1 for INT and +6 for 8 (rogue) vs 2 (ftr) all times 4). So you could end up with 15+28=43 more skill points at end game to spend and that is quite a lot.

Oh, and we also need to look at the status of the account, was that a 28 point build or a 32 point build? Would you open that can at the same time?

One reason lots of people really want the skill respec is that they really do not want to reroll and have to regain all the bound items on a toon. So another way to accomplish that would be to create a mechanism that would allow a single account to transfer bound items from one character on that account to another character on that account. It could be a one time move everything type deal, or it could be selective. It could be a paid option much like moving a character from one server to another. You go and acquire an item transfer bag and place into it all those items you want to move/rebind from character XYZ to character ABC. You make the send to address just like you would when mailing stuff, but once you are ready you contact CS and submit a transfer request like a server move. You get to rebuild the character and get the stuff. The only thing missing on this would be consumed tomes, but for anyone with this kind of stuff kicking about, tomes should not be an issue.

QuantumFX
08-05-2008, 05:59 PM
Actually, the last time the devs commented on that, they do not save that info. Hence one of the big issues with a respec.

Then explain to me how Fred has that info available when you respec feats?

Seneca_Windforge
08-05-2008, 06:07 PM
Interesting idea, but how would you implement for idiot proofing all the gear someone is wearing that will get dropped to inventory due to level requirements. You just know some fools with full backpacks will step into the chamber and end up dropping on the ground 6 raid items and destroying them...:rolleyes: and then listen to the cries...

Fred does know what class and level your FEATS were taken at, since it flags the FEAT with that info from what I see. That however might not be all that clean to extract from the database and it would leave gaps in the progression of levels.

While we would like to hope for fair players, if the order of classes taken was not accurately known, then it would be possible to build a character one way for surviving up to end game and then completely revamp that toon and end up with tons more Skill points then. Drop one level of Rogue along the way for example. Now in the rebuild start with rogue and the improved INT from Tomes and you end up with (lets say only +15 Skill points from better INT at 15 level ups, and 28 more skill points to start with at level 1 (+1 for INT and +6 for 8 (rogue) vs 2 (ftr) all times 4). So you could end up with 15+28=43 more skill points at end game to spend and that is quite a lot.

Oh, and we also need to look at the status of the account, was that a 28 point build or a 32 point build? Would you open that can at the same time?

One reason lots of people really want the skill respec is that they really do not want to reroll and have to regain all the bound items on a toon. So another way to accomplish that would be to create a mechanism that would allow a single account to transfer bound items from one character on that account to another character on that account. It could be a one time move everything type deal, or it could be selective. It could be a paid option much like moving a character from one server to another. You go and acquire an item transfer bag and place into it all those items you want to move/rebind from character XYZ to character ABC. You make the send to address just like you would when mailing stuff, but once you are ready you contact CS and submit a transfer request like a server move. You get to rebuild the character and get the stuff. The only thing missing on this would be consumed tomes, but for anyone with this kind of stuff kicking about, tomes should not be an issue.

The little trick about swapping the rogue around to level 1 wouldn't work. EVERY character gets a feat at level 1, and that means that the system will ALWAYS know which class you were when you were 1st level because that particular feat will be marked as (class) 1. With that out of the way, things become a bit less complicated.

I say, let the tomes count. In the end, you're talking about +1 or +2 skill points per level (at least up to the point where the tome was used), which isn't that big of a deal. And yes, if that *specific* character had unlocked 1750, I'd say let them apply four more Point Buy points to their stats, too.

Shagn
08-06-2008, 12:09 PM
And yes, if that *specific* character had unlocked 1750, I'd say let them apply four more Point Buy points to their stats, too.

I assume you are referring to only if that particular character was a 28 point build. I would very much like to upgrade my "old school" characters. It wouldn't help much, but sure would be nice for a little extra sp/hp.

I'm all for the skill respec. Many things have changed, and have made many skills much more useful (like how Turbine always told us our jump skill lessened falling damage when it didn't??). So what a character ate a +2 int tome at lvl 16? One extra skill point isn't going to break game balance. My wizzy ate a +2 int tome at lvl1. It's not that big of a deal to make this the reason to not consider a skill respec.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-06-2008, 01:19 PM
Then explain to me how Fred has that info available when you respec feats?

Simple, they log the type of feat and level when you take it. ie - database entry looks like:


Toughness Fighter Bonus Level 2
Toughness Fighter Level 2
QuickDraw Rogue Level 1