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View Full Version : Constructive Abbot Questions and Concerns (please do not hijack this)



Big-Dex
07-31-2008, 03:12 PM
Hey Devs and ALL CONCERNED...

Legendary Knights of Mabar (Argo) have beaten every raid in game on elite and with flying colors. We have yet to beat the Abbot straight up on normal and we have been running the Abbot a ton lately as a guild with dedicated and skilled players. We have put in 2+ hours a night, every night, this week alone, and untold hours for the past few months (I know other guilds might have put in more time than we have, but I say this to demonstrate that we are dedicated and trying, not to brag).

While we are getting better and more consistent at all of the puzzles, though the Asteroids are still our bane (they spawn way too fast, last way too long and even with a stoned summoned monster or two up there to help block, those asteroids are vicious), we cannot seem to pull it all off in the first try. We are not getting to the second try at the puzzles in a run for various reasons as explained below. Below are some questions with pretty thorough and constructive explanation of each. My hope is that the DEVs will chime in, but players in the know are welcome to as well. I know it is long, but your time is greatly appreciated.

PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT HIJACK THIS OR TURN IT INTO ANOTHER ABBOT COMPLAINT FEST. THERE ARE PLENTY OF THOSE THREADS ON THE FORUMS ALREADY. If you feel the need to complain, start your own thread or revive one of the complaint fests already in existence. PLEASE KEEP THIS TO SERIOUS AND CONSTRUCTIVE POSTS that might help move this quest along for folks still trying to get it done.

1) Is the Abbot supposed to spam inferno upon us reentering the arena after the first try at the puzzles? We have yet to get all three puzzles done at once and on the first try, but we have gotten two puzzles done on the first try, only to get back to the platform and get annihalated by inferno. Not only will he spam infernos (fire one, then within one to two minutes, fire a second, if even that long), he is messing with us in other ways during the inferno (more on that in a minute). We know this because we have survived the first inferno, only to get toasted by the second. Mind you, I thought I read somewhere by a DEV that as a patch fix he is not supposed to cast inferno until all three puzzles are solved. That is not happening, if I read right. Is this intended to be this way or is it a known issue?

2) Is the Abbot's inferno supposed to drain SP with some type of curse effect? We noticed that he is hitting our clerics/casters with a curse and sapping SP each time (160-180 pts each curse, with multiple curses being spammed). So, even as we try and heal through some of it as we get on the ice flows, we are losing all of our SP and don't stand a chance. This has been our newest and greatest frustration. So, please help out on this. I know the point is to drive us off of the platform and make us use the ice flow wands, but man that is difficult to do when you only get two ice wands and they disappear if you die, which brings me to my next question...

3) Are the ice wands, boulders and goggles supposed to disappear from our inventory if we die on the platform after successfully completing a puzzle? To explain, we have had the ice wands many times only to have one or both ice wand wielders die at some point, either just before they could cast an ice flow or at some point during the fight after he comes back down (chain lightning and encasement have gotten us often). With only one wand, we only have about 12 seconds on the ice flow before we have to jump back on the platform and try and heal through the rest of the inferno (which is problematic--see previous question). If both wand bearers die, we are toast, since we cannot heal through an inferno (see above problem). Also, we have been able to get a res off just prior to one inferno and have one cleric take it after the inferno, but even then, that is a work-around tactic and difficult at best to get the party all rez'd back up. We have been able get some res'z back up though. Mind you, it makes sense that to keep folks who die from puzzle failure showing up on the platform with the goggles/ice wands/boulders still in their inventory, they must disappear. It might also help avoid some instances of the goggles bug, only if they choose to die. But is it supposed to happen on the platform for those who have successfully did a puzzle. This seems like an unforseen consequence of making them disappear up top when failing a puzzle. Correct me if I am wrong.

4) Is the inferno damage supposed to hit us when we are on an ice flow? When we have managed to get an ice flow out, which are we doing fairly consistently now, we still occasionaly get hit with inferno damage even on the ice flow. We guess it was too close to the platform, though it is hard to confirm that in the high pace of things and since it only lasts so long. Nevertheless, it seems to me that the inferno's reach goes beyond the platform. Is this true and is it supposed to be this way?

5) Can you confirm or deny the that the goggles are supposed to enable us to see some sort of phase spectre that hits us for manna drains and damage or is it to see some phased platform that offers us a safe haven to kill the abbot from? This is critical. We have yet to manage to get the goggles down and on long enough to look around. We often get half the phase tile puzzle done consistently, meaning no goggles down on the platform. When we have gotten it done completely, because it takes much longer than the other puzzles, we have no one left on the platform to keep our goggle wearers up because the abbot has already roasted us with inferno. When they come down, they die too quick to get a good look around. What is the official word on this?

6) Is the Abbot supposed to send us back to the puzzles if we do not succeed on the first try? I believe I read somewhere that part of a patch was to include having the Abbot not only not cast inferno until all the puzzles have been solved, but also keep sending us back until we beat him. The problem is that neither of these things happen. Either we are not staying alive long enough to get sent back (inferno is roasting us) or he does not do it. Can you confirm or deny for us so we have our facts straight.

7) Is this quest consistently doable on the live servers as it sets now, without exploits and "unusual" tactics? In other words, would our time better be spent waiting for a patch. Please be straight up. LKM loves the game. We are dedicated players. We just don't want to frustrate ourselves trying to play the quest straight up if it is not consistantly doable in its present state (and not down to pure luck). REMEMBER, I KNOW MOST OF THE PLAYER BASE's OPINION ON THIS, BUT I AM HOPING A DEV WILL ANSWER THIS, SO PLEASE DO NOT HIJACK OR DERAIL THIS THREAD WITH YOUR OPINIONS OR COMPLAINTS ON THIS POINT. PLEASE KEEP IT CONSTRUCTIVE!

I know this is long, but I am trying to be thorough with the hopes that this post will intelligently set forth some constructive concerns we are having. If any DEV has read this far and is entertaining answering these questions for those of your dedicated player base, thank you. If you cannot answer, please let me know so I don't sit in antipation of an answer.

Thanks for your time and a great game!
~ DEX (Legendary Knights of Mabar - ARGO)

Turial
07-31-2008, 03:18 PM
...
6) Is the Abbot supposed to send us back to the puzzles if we do not succeed on the first try? I believe I read somewhere that part of a patch was to include having the Abbot not only not cast inferno until all the puzzles have been solved, but also keep sending us back until we beat him. The problem is that neither of these things happen. Either we are not staying alive long enough to get sent back (inferno is roasting us) or he does not do it. Can you confirm or deny for us so we have our facts straight....

This one I can answer. If you survive the first inferno but did not complete the puzzles on the first run through 6 people will be sent to the puzzles after the abbot comes back to the platform and you beat his health back down to the point where you were originally teleported away.

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 03:21 PM
1) Is the Abbot supposed to spam inferno upon us reentering the arena after the first try at the puzzles? We have yet to get all three puzzles done at once and on the first try, but we have gotten two puzzles done on the first try, only to get back to the platform and get annihalated by inferno.
The answer to that is yes. You are supposed to get the puzzles done on your first try, or else you're supposed to basically fail the quest.

The intention is that players will have ice wands by that point, and you will use those wands to avoid getting killed by inferno. You're supposed to notice when he starts casting it and run over to an ice ball every time.


2) Is the Abbot's inferno supposed to drain SP with some type of curse effect?
Yes, Curse of the Inferno is absolutely supposed to drain spellpoints. That is to prevent players from standing there and healing their way through it, which is how the Abbot raid was originally beaten during its first week of release. (The increased inferno damage also made it less feasible to heal through it).


4) Is the inferno damage supposed to hit us when we are on an ice flow? When we have managed to get an ice flow out, which are we doing fairly consistently now, we still occasionaly get hit with inferno damage even on the ice flow.
Previously there were corners of the main platform where you wouldn't get burned.


6) Is the Abbot supposed to send us back to the puzzles if we do not succeed on the first try? [COLOR=white]I believe I read somewhere that part of a patch was to include having the Abbot not only not cast inferno until all the puzzles have been solved
Your belief is wrong. Nothing like that was announced.

Turial
07-31-2008, 03:23 PM
....
Your belief is wrong. Nothing like that was announced.

May not have been announced but I have been in multiple groups that have gotten 2nd tries at the puzzles.

Big-Dex
07-31-2008, 03:26 PM
May not have been announced but I have been in multiple groups that have gotten 2nd tries at the puzzles.


He was talking about the not spamming inferno, not the getting sent back, I think.

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 03:26 PM
May not have been announced but I have been in multiple groups that have gotten 2nd tries at the puzzles.
That is irrelevant to the question of if the developers ever announced that the Black Abbot would hold back from casting Inferno until all three puzzles are done.

Obviously, no announcement of that nature was ever made.

The developers did say that the Abbot will keep sending you to puzzles again and again, but that's not interesting.

totmacher
07-31-2008, 03:40 PM
free bump, I would love to see the devs answer some of these since archmagi plans on knocking this out as well

Eladrin
07-31-2008, 03:45 PM
1) Is the Abbot supposed to spam inferno upon us reentering the arena after the first try at the puzzles?
Inferno, Encase, and calling his special friends are all abilities he gains after you return from your first attempt at the puzzles.

2) Is the Abbot's inferno supposed to drain SP with some type of curse effect?
Yes.

3) Are the ice wands, boulders and goggles supposed to disappear from our inventory if we die on the platform after successfully completing a puzzle?
Currently they are Destroyed on Death. We have been considering making them Dropped on Death instead.

4) Is the inferno damage supposed to hit us when we are on an ice flow?
The inferno does reach a short distance past the edge of the platforms, much like Wall of Fire does. There's no real easy way to know whether you're "far enough" other than through experience.

5) Can you confirm or deny the that the goggles are supposed to enable us to see some sort of phase spectre that hits us for manna drains and damage or is it to see some phased platform that offers us a safe haven to kill the abbot from?
The goggles aren't for finding a safe haven. Phasing Wraiths do exist.

6) Is the Abbot supposed to send us back to the puzzles if we do not succeed on the first try?
Yes. If his health drops to a point where he will want to regenerate again, he'll teleport people away again and go heal.

7) Is this quest consistently doable on the live servers as it sets now, without exploits and "unusual" tactics?
Yes.

totmacher
07-31-2008, 03:47 PM
Eladrin, when you say Yes to question #7, the burden of proof lies on you, I know you don't have to prove anything but, straight up, have non-dev players been knocking this out consistently?

Big-Dex
07-31-2008, 03:49 PM
Thanks a ton Eladrin for the speedy reply!

Back to work on the Abbot tonight! We shall beat this thing!

~ DEX

Gordo
07-31-2008, 03:55 PM
Thanks for the answers.

The answer to number 7 is disingenuous at best as some of the best players in the game have tried to accomplish this and have not even gotten close. This is the most undoable raid in the game by a longshot. It seems silly that people complete the Hound on Elite but can not complete the Abbot on normal. C'mon devs - the raid is not perfect and although it should be left challenging, it is not close to being doable for even a small segment of the DDO population.

Impaqt
07-31-2008, 04:00 PM
7) Is this quest consistently doable on the live servers as it sets now, without exploits and "unusual" tactics?
Yes.


I can accept all your answers except the last....

I'd love to see a Fraps of a start to Finish Abbot Completion.

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 04:05 PM
We often get half the phase tile puzzle done consistently, meaning no goggles down on the platform. When we have gotten it done completely, because it takes much longer than the other puzzles, we have no one left on the platform to keep our goggle wearers up because the abbot has already roasted us with inferno. When they come down, they die too quick to get a good look around.
That's a tactical error on your part.

No players should return to the main room until all three puzzles are completed.

When you beat your puzzle, you stand and wait until you get confirmation that the other two were successful. If one of them fails, then you abort the raid and recall out to repair and regroup for the next try. (As always, remember to remove Phase Goggles first). That way, your whole team is ready to go back to the main room at the same time if the puzzles were successful.

Big-Dex
07-31-2008, 04:22 PM
Angelus ... serious and honest question..

Have you completed the RAID without exploits or "unusual tactics?" Please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to call you out or anything. I am just wondering if this tip is sourced from an experienced success or a tactical suggestion from one who is still trying, but who has not yet succeeded (that is, without some of them "unusual tactics").

It will help folks who are still trying to get this done discern a successful tactic from another proposed suggestion.

I thank you for your serious input to the thread that is not laced with "it can't be done."

~ Dex

Gornin
07-31-2008, 04:28 PM
I know you asked A_D, but I can tell you what my guild does.

Yes, the best tactic is to recall out if you do not complete all 3 puzzles together and try it again.

Yes, we have completed the Abbot on Normal and Hard. It takes a few or more tries each time due to lag and just plain difficulty of the puzzles.

No, we do not use questionable tactics or exploits, just perserverence.

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 04:33 PM
Have you completed the RAID without exploits or "unusual tactics?"
The answer to that question is yes. However, I'll warn you that you asked the wrong question.


Please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to call you out or anything. I am just wondering if this tip is sourced from an experienced success
It's "sourced" from being the obvious result of the mechanics of the raid.

Fact: You can't kill the Abbot without beating all three puzzles (that was announced in the release notes)
Fact: You can't beat the puzzles from the main chamber
Therefore: Anyone in the main chamber while puzzles are in progress isn't helping win the raid, and at-best is waiting around to help win it later.

Lithic
07-31-2008, 04:34 PM
I can accept all your answers except the last....

I'd love to see a Fraps of a start to Finish Abbot Completion.

The problem is he misphrased the question.

It should have read:

7) Is this quest consistently doable on the live servers as it sets now, without exploits and "unusual" tactics, assuming 12 moderately well-equipped players on average internet connections, with no more than 6 of the players being intimitly familiar with the puzzles?

If the answer to that is NO (and I would call shananigans on any 'yes' answer), then the quest still needs major modification.

I would be very interested to know how often people complete this quest compared to the other raids (total characters completing abbot in 1 week on argo for example, vs total completions logged in reaver/DQ etc). I am betting that a ratio of 1000:1 for reaver:abbot is low.

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 04:38 PM
No, we do not use questionable tactics or exploits, just perserverence.
Interesting. Why don't you give out a few tips on how to win? (Like, do you have a list of which players are able to beat which puzzles, and do you DD out immediately if they win up in the wrong place? And, where do you stand for asteroids.. etc etc)

By not using anything "questionable", that must mean:
1. Only 2 players in each puzzle.
2. Random assignment of players to puzzles.
3. All asteroids destroyed by thrown boulders before hitting the platform.
4. Taking no benefit from the Encase spell.

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 04:39 PM
7) Is this quest consistently doable on the live servers as it sets now, without exploits and "unusual" tactics, assuming 12 moderately well-equipped players on average internet connections, with no more than 6 of the players being intimitly familiar with the puzzles?
That's still a bad question. It would be quite acceptable if completion required 100% of the team membership to be highly familiar with all puzzles.

The core problem with the Abbot raid is that even "intimate familiarity" to the tune of 30 hours practice is insufficient for an above-average player to have a decent chance to beat the asteroid or tile challenge.

jkm
07-31-2008, 04:40 PM
The answer to that question is yes. However, I'll warn you that you asked the wrong question.


It's "sourced" from being the obvious result of the mechanics of the raid.

Fact: You can't kill the Abbot without beating all three puzzles (that was announced in the release notes)
Fact: You can't beat the puzzles from the main chamber
Therefore: Anyone in the main chamber while puzzles are in progress isn't helping win the raid, and at-best is waiting around to help win it later.

i'm sorry but dying, someone picking up your stone and rezzing in the puzzle room is the cheesiest cheese ever, especially after eladrin specifically said the object of the raid was to "not die". i've ran the goggle puzzle around a 100 times and its just not doable on a latency of 121 ms (which is what my illustrious internet connection is).

Big-Dex
07-31-2008, 04:44 PM
Seriously folks...

Please keep this thread to doable tactics. Please don't derail it!

Please don't offer a criticism without something constructive to help folks who would really like to get this done!

Finally, Please take the whining about how undoable it is elsewhere. Start your own thread or revive another of the derailed threads. Leave this one be.

I am asking nicely and I have said "Please."

~ DEX

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 04:45 PM
i'm sorry but dying, someone picking up your stone and rezzing in the puzzle room is the cheesiest cheese ever, especially after eladrin specifically said the object of the raid was to "not die"
Yes, it is quite cheesy.

Accurate reading of my statement would reveal that it never says you should kill characters and carry their soulstones to the puzzle rooms- only that players in puzzle rooms should not go back until they're all completed. I very intentionally said nothing about how many characters should go to the puzzles, or how they should get there.

Furthermore, later in that thread I listed some "questionable techniques", and included bringing more than 2 players to a puzzle as one of them.


especially after eladrin specifically said the object of the raid was to "not die"
False. Eladrin didn't write that. He did say that not dying was the best way to avoid suffering a death penalty, which is true.

Gratch
07-31-2008, 04:47 PM
I have found that running the Abbott puzzles during non primetime is much easier than east coast on weekdays or long parts of the weekends... mostly due to reduced server lag. The asteroids seem to hit detect better, jumping in the ice chamber is smoother, and goggles info can be conveyed more easily.

Healemup
07-31-2008, 04:47 PM
7) Is this quest consistently doable on the live servers as it sets now, without exploits and "unusual" tactics?
Yes.


Has this raid been completed more than say 50 times in total across all servers since the last change? If so, I will try to find the people who are completing and ask for more input from them. Has it been completed, even once, on elite since the last change? If so, I will switch servers, if necessary, and run a character up to the approriate level and try to get into a group on that server to try to get this completed once (on any difficulty).

/signed frustrated

Lithic
07-31-2008, 04:48 PM
That's still a bad question. It would be quite acceptable if completion required 100% of the team membership to be highly familiar with all puzzles.

The core problem with the Abbot raid is that even "intimate familiarity" to the tune of 30 hours practice is insufficient for an above-average player to have a decent chance to beat the asteroid or tile challenge.

Asking for 12 people to be highly familiar means the quest is out for any non-powergamer. It's out for 99.999% of pug groups. Its even out for most small-med guilds that cant get 12 highly familiar characters online at once.

So who's left? probably about 2 groups of 12 on argo. Having a quest be so difficult for so much of the playerbase means it may as well not exist. Keep in mind this quest is over 6months old. After 6months (Not to mention a level cap increase), the raid should be routinely beat by any decent pug groups. Any other situation is unacceptable for an MMO.

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 04:55 PM
Asking for 12 people to be highly familiar means the quest is out for any non-powergamer.
No. As already explained, the problem is that the challenges are too hard, not that you're required to be familiar with them.

Very many good players who are very familiar with the challenges still can't do them.

The ice ball challenge is the acceptable one: with luck it's possible to beat it on your first try, and the cause of your failure will probably be something you can see and correct. On future runs there will still be a chance of failure due to forces beyond your control, but a couple good players can train themselves up to over 90% success in an hour of practice.

If the other challenges were that managable, then the raid would be acceptable. However, they are not. The other challenges are between 10 and 100 times as hard as the ice jumping area.

PS. For an example of the difference between "familiar" and "capable", look at professional football. Millions of Americans are highly familiar with the game, but under 1% of them have any ability to be successful at it. By the same token, being familiar with Abbot raid challenges is only a small part of being able to beat them.

Gornin
07-31-2008, 05:01 PM
Interesting. Why don't you give out a few tips on how to win? (Like, do you have a list of which players are able to beat which puzzles, and do you DD out immediately if they win up in the wrong place? And, where do you stand for asteroids.. etc etc)

By not using anything "questionable", that must mean:
1. Only 2 players in each puzzle.
2. Random assignment of players to puzzles.
3. All asteroids destroyed by thrown boulders before hitting the platform.
4. Taking no benefit from the Encase spell.

Only 2 per puzzle, everyone in the raid is capable of doing any of the puzzles, but obviously some are better at some puzzles than others. We don't DD if the "right" people don't go to the "right " puzzles. We always consider it practice. Everytime you go to a puzzle you try to beat it. If you fail we recall and try again.

Asteroids I have only been there once. I failed, but lasted a while. Just spammed the boulders. If others in my guild are doing differently, they are not tellling. If I have the goggles we complete fairly often, if I am the runner, not so often. Ice wands is fairly easy.

Not sure what you mean by benefitting by Encasement.

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 05:21 PM
If I have the goggles we complete fairly often, if I am the runner, not so often.
What??

I don't get it. Two players are sent to the phase chasm challenge, but there isn't one runner and one goggles. They're both runners.

First, the left-hand player has goggles and he guides the right-hand player over the chasm. Then the right-hand player picks up a different set of goggles and guides the other guy. The goggles are named Alpha Phase Goggles and Beta Phase Goggles to reflect that they can view different sets of tiles.

Gratch
07-31-2008, 06:19 PM
My favorite way of beating the Abbot is hitting cntrl-alt-Ybutton-Xbutton (you need a PS2 controller) and converting the party to mega raid so that you have 64 toons in there at once. Then he sends 16 to each puzzle and at least the asteroids and phase chasm puzzles are easier... in a lucky-lemmings sort of fashion. The biggest problem is getting 64 players on at once with abbot access.

Hmmm... wonder if it's "more forgiving" if you end up with a pair of abundant step monks in the phase chasm.

Gornin
07-31-2008, 06:28 PM
What??

I don't get it. Two players are sent to the phase chasm challenge, but there isn't one runner and one goggles. They're both runners.

First, the left-hand player has goggles and he guides the right-hand player over the chasm. Then the right-hand player picks up a different set of goggles and guides the other guy. The goggles are named Alpha Phase Goggles and Beta Phase Goggles to reflect that they can view different sets of tiles.

Um, I have a lot of connection and lag issues.You know, where your screen freezes for 1 to 2 seconds, and by the time you get your finger off your key you have gone too far. Makes it very difficult for me to do any of the puzzles, but I keep trying.

Same reason I hate the death penalty. I die way more due to lag than anything else.

Big-Dex
07-31-2008, 06:33 PM
Hey Gornin...

I know you said you guild has completed this RAID on Normal and Hard. Is your guild completing this RAID regularly and consistently on Normal then? How often have you completed? Once again, I am not calling you out, but trying to understand the basis of your successes and tips.

The common concern is that this RAID takes too much luck. I am wondering if there are tactics that take some of the luck factor out and base it more in skill.

Let me know...
Thanks
~ Dex

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 06:34 PM
Um, I have a lot of connection and lag issues.You know, where your screen freezes for 1 to 2 seconds, and by the time you get your finger off your key you have gone too far. Makes it very difficult for me to do any of the puzzles, but I keep trying.
Ok, sure. You have lag, fine. But you stated: "If I have the goggles we complete fairly often"?

How is it any easier to complete the raid if you are the tile guide instead of the tile runner? After the runner crosses you switch places and do it again- both players have to be a runner.

Or... is this something that changed in a recent patch? Like only one guy has to run across, instead of both? It's been a long time since I've beaten the phase tiles, so I might not have seen what's new about it.

Gornin
07-31-2008, 06:47 PM
Hey Gornin...

I know you said you guild has completed this RAID on Normal and Hard. Is your guild completing this RAID regularly and consistently on Normal then? How often have you completed? Once again, I am not calling you out, but trying to understand the basis of your successes and tips.

The common concern is that this RAID takes too much luck. I am wondering if there are tactics that take some of the luck factor out and base it more in skill.

Let me know...
Thanks
~ Dex

Yes, it takes a lot of luck. When I was doing it regularly, we usually won by persistance. The raid still definately needs work due to lag and communication issues. Just know the puzzles and keep trying and if you don't get all 3 in one run, recall and restart.

BlackSteel
07-31-2008, 06:48 PM
Ok, sure. You have lag, fine. But you stated: "If I have the goggles we complete fairly often"?

How is it any easier to complete the raid if you are the tile guide instead of the tile runner? After the runner crosses you switch places and do it again- both players have to be a runner.

Or... is this something that changed in a recent patch? Like only one guy has to run across, instead of both? It's been a long time since I've beaten the phase tiles, so I might not have seen what's new about it.

as of last week, both still have to run.

Gornin
07-31-2008, 06:50 PM
Ok, sure. You have lag, fine. But you stated: "If I have the goggles we complete fairly often"?

How is it any easier to complete the raid if you are the tile guide instead of the tile runner? After the runner crosses you switch places and do it again- both players have to be a runner.

Or... is this something that changed in a recent patch? Like only one guy has to run across, instead of both? It's been a long time since I've beaten the phase tiles, so I might not have seen what's new about it.

Ok, I wan't as clear as I could have been, but I figured you would understand what I meant since you know the raid so well.

If they can get me across as the first runner, I can almost always direct the other guy across with better than average success.

BTW, I am no expert. I pesonally have only completed it twice. The more hardcore guildies work at it a couple times a week. I have been busy leveling my monk. I was just letting you know that it can be done with persistance as the first caveat and luck as the second.

Strakeln
07-31-2008, 07:11 PM
6) Is the Abbot supposed to send us back to the puzzles if we do not succeed on the first try?


Your belief is wrong. Nothing like that was announced.

Try searching before making your "fact" statements.

From http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=134224:


The Black Abbot will now send you back to the three trials if you have not yet beaten them, rather than simply continuing the battle immortal.

edit: damn, a dev beat me to it
double edit: shame on me, A_D specifically addressed one portion of the quoted text and not the heading. thx toro, sry A-D

Big-Dex
07-31-2008, 07:14 PM
Alrighty then...

So... what guilds are doing this thing regularly and consistently without any exploits or unusual tactics? How many times have you guys successfully completed this RAID straight up? Anyone????

Mind you, please keep the whining about the RAID's inadequacies out of here. We know what they are and there are other threads on that. Take that stuff to one of those threads.

We are looking for helpful stuff here. Seriously.

Thanks guys!
~ Dex

Big-Dex
07-31-2008, 07:20 PM
Funny you should post that STRAKELN. That was the exact statement that made me think that he would not progress with the battle until the puzzles were done. I just could not find it because I could not remember exactly what it said.

Note the phrase, "...rather than simply continuing the battle immortal." Based on Eladrin's answer in this thread and the facts of the quest, I obviously misunderstood what it meant. It seemed to me that he would not advance to the inferno/encasement/special friends portion of the quest by that statement. But that is obviously not what was meant. He will continue and advance the battle, but will give you another shot at the puzzles. It is just harder to get that second shot at the puzzles.

I now know better, but thanks for validating my thought that something of that nature was posted.

~ Dex

Torosar
07-31-2008, 07:31 PM
Try searching before making your "fact" statements.

From http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=134224:



edit: damn, a dev beat me to it

You misquoted/misunderstood him somewhat. Look what comes after the yellow part.



I believe I read somewhere that part of a patch was to include having the Abbot not only not cast inferno until all the puzzles have been solved, but also keep sending us back until we beat him. The problem is that neither of these things happen. Either we are not staying alive long enough to get sent back (inferno is roasting us) or he does not do it. Can you confirm or deny for us so we have our facts straight


A_D was correctly pointing out the belief that inferno will not be cast until all puzzles are completed is incorrect.

Big-Dex
07-31-2008, 07:35 PM
Agreed Torosar ...

... now back to our regulalry scheduled progam of successful Abbot tacts, minus the exploits and unusual tactics.

What guilds are doing it successfully and how? How often are you completing?

Please do tell...

~ Dex

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 07:47 PM
What guilds are doing it successfully and how? How often are you completing?
It would be nice if someone could say how the phase goggles help (if at all).

I can tell there are Phase Wraiths around by watching the combat log, because I take both hitpoint and spellpoint damage. And I'm unable to hurt them myself. Maybe wearing goggles would allow me to damage them normally, or maybe it's something else.

Yuhjn
07-31-2008, 07:52 PM
Agreed Torosar ...

... now back to our regulalry scheduled progam of successful Abbot tacts, minus the exploits and unusual tactics.

What guilds are doing it successfully and how? How often are you completing?

Please do tell...

~ Dex


Dude you need to relax and let people post what they want in this thread. Trying to babysit a thread makes a person look very silly.

I suggest we start whining more about this stupid raid and talk about the exploits we can use to solve it.

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 07:56 PM
What guilds are doing it successfully and how? How often are you completing?
I am pretty interested in if they need 2 rounds of successful puzzles, or they get by with 1.

What I mean is, to kill the Abbot takes 3 rounds of combat. After a round of fighting you, he sends 6 players to puzzles. And we know those puzzles are mandatory to win the quest. Starting in the 2nd combat round Abbot has 3 new deadly special attacks, which you're not supposed to be able to survive without items gained by completing the puzzles. Most important is the ice wand, which lets you get away from the Inferno which would both kill you and drain spellpoints.

1. Buff up
2. Combat round 1 (to 50% hp)
3. Puzzle round 1
4. Combat round 2 (to 25% hp)
5. Puzzle round 2
6. Combat round 3 (to 0% hp)
7. Winner!

So, if you complete the first puzzle round and get the items, do you also complete them again for the second puzzle round? Or do you just rely on having enough items left over to survive any further inferno attacks before you kill him in combat round 3? Does that rely on luck to hope that the players holding the ice wands don't get pulled into puzzle rooms again?

Or do you need to beat the ice puzzle twice in a successful raid?

Big-Dex
07-31-2008, 08:17 PM
Dude you need to relax and let people post what they want in this thread. Trying to babysit a thread makes a person look very silly.

I suggest we start whining more about this stupid raid and talk about the exploits we can use to solve it.


Yuhjn... If that is what trying to keep my thread on topic does, than what does you coming in and posting stuff like this??? C'mon man. Seriously, quit trolling and just drive by if you have nothing helpful to offer. Otherwise, let me "babysit" my thread if I like. If noone wants to post/answer, that's cool. They have that option. If they don't like my babysitting the thread, that is cool too. This thread will drop into oblivion as a useless thread. No worries. Otherwise, live and let live man. I think that's fair.

Angelus... good summation. That seems to be how it goes, potentially, unless you get the puzzles in round 1. If it does go to round 2, I do not think you would have to do all three puzzles again (i.e., the items you have already recieved drop from your inventory). But i imagine if you die up there by not completing the puzzles again, they would drop since they are destroy on death items. A confirmation of that would be cool!?!

Swegen
07-31-2008, 08:31 PM
So here is another question I pose.

If the raid has the requirement of completing all three puzzles, are the items that are obtained from the puzzles required in order to defeat the abbot? Say for example all three of the puzzles have been completed, but the two people who have the boulders die and the boulders are destroyed, would that puzzle need to be completed again? While I would think that you would not have to do it again, I am not sure what triggers the abbot to become vulnerable.

I would suspect that it is the creation of the portals that go back to the main platform as opposed to the items themselves are what trigger it.

As far as the goggles go, I believe only those who have them can do any damage to the phase wraiths.

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 08:33 PM
Angelus... good summation. That seems to be how it goes, potentially, unless you get the puzzles in round 1.
No. He will teleport away at least twice before you get to kill him: once at about 25000 hp and once at 10000 hp, as far as I can tell.

If you don't get the puzzles in round 1, you probably shouldn't even go to combat round 2. When a puzzle fails, you have two choices:
1. Go in the main room and get beat on by the Black Abbot for 5 minutes until you can try puzzles again.
2. Recall out to the tavern for 5 minutes until you can try puzzles again.

Choice #2 is superior for resource-conservation purposes.

Big-Dex
07-31-2008, 09:18 PM
No. He will teleport away at least twice before you get to kill him: once at about 25000 hp and once at 10000 hp, as far as I can tell.

Angelus...

So, let me get this straight, as I am not sure what you are saying .... are you suggesting that he will teleport you to the puzzles twice, even if you get them all done the first time? This would mean that completing all three does not take down his mantle and allow you to kill him yet after round 1?

I know for a fact that when he goes up and rests the first time (teleporting us away to do the puzzles), all of his HP are restored. So, does that happen after a second shot at the puzzles too if you don't get them all done on the first try?

Have you experienced this or is this your suspicion? Confirmation anyone?

Swegen...

Good question? In other words, if we get two of the puzzles done in round 1, then we only need to complete the third puzzle in round 2 to get rid of his mantle and take him out with an all out beat down. That question can be expounded by asking, will he still cast inferno/encasement/special friends after his mantle goes down? If not, then the ice wands are not needed if you can get all three puzzles done in the first round. That would mean that you would only need them to get a second shot at the missing puzzles and the goggles to deal with the phased wraiths. Hmmm....

Has anyone completed all three puzzles in the first round that can answer these questions definitively?

Swegen
07-31-2008, 09:28 PM
That question can be expounded by asking, will he still cast inferno/encasement/special friends after his mantle goes down? If not, then the ice wands are not needed if you can get all three puzzles done in the first round. That would mean that you would only need them to get a second shot at the missing puzzles and the goggles to deal with the phased wraiths. Hmmm....

Has anyone completed all three puzzles in the first round that can answer these questions definitively?

I cannot imagine that he would stop casting inferno/encasement or have his phasing wraiths come out after completing all three of the puzzles. The only thing that I could picture changing is that once all three puzzles have been completed, the abbot will not claim he needs a rest and send people back up to the puzzles. Just doesn't seem to have a purpose to do that other than to potentially destroy items that have already made it through the first round, which would just be rude and unnecessary.

Angelus_dead
07-31-2008, 09:33 PM
Have you experienced this or is this your suspicion? Confirmation anyone?
Yes, I've seen it happen. (But things could have changed since I last saw it)

As it starts, Black Abbot has around 50,000 hp. You take him down to 25k hp and then he teleports 6 players to puzzles, and goes on the hand to Harm himself back to full. After 5 minutes he comes back, and has gained the Inferno, Encase, and Summon Phase Wraith spells. Reduce him to maybe about 12k hp and he goes away to rest again, once more sending players to puzzles.

After another 5 minutes he comes back down and you can kill him. That comes to a grand total of around 112,000 hp of damage you must inflict to beat that boss. (A boss who's immune to Sneak Attack, Wall of Fire, and critical hits)


will he still cast inferno/encasement/special friends after his mantle goes down?
Mantle of Invulnerablity is a defense used by all liches in DDO. It makes them immune to spells of level 4 and below, and is not connected to the raid puzzles or his immortality.

Eladrin
08-01-2008, 08:57 AM
Mantle of Invulnerablity is a defense used by all liches in DDO. It makes them immune to spells of level 4 and below, and is not connected to the raid puzzles or his immortality.
Note that Mantle of Invulnerability can be dispelled. He reapplies it occasionally, and you do have to make the Caster Level check. (At least, until you get Mordenkainen's Disjunction. That will make him sad.)

Borror0
08-01-2008, 08:59 AM
Note that Mantle of Invulnerability can be dispelled. He reapplies it occasionally, and you do have to make the Caster Level check.

Nice. So, Suulomades' can be dispelled as well?

ArkoHighStar
08-01-2008, 09:14 AM
Note that Mantle of Invulnerability can be dispelled. He reapplies it occasionally, and you do have to make the Caster Level check. (At least, until you get Mordenkainen's Disjunction. That will make him sad.)

so does this mean Mordenkainen's Disjunction will be in our spell list when the cap goes up?:D:eek:

MrCow
08-01-2008, 09:19 AM
Nice. So, Suulomades' can be dispelled as well?

I don't think we have casters that are high enough leveled yet to dispel anything Suulomades casts.

debo
08-01-2008, 09:20 AM
Note that Mantle of Invulnerability can be dispelled. He reapplies it occasionally, and you do have to make the Caster Level check. (At least, until you get Mordenkainen's Disjunction. That will make him sad.)

God forbid that was mentioned in the Stormreach Chronicle? The playerbase might get excited.

:mad:

Borror0
08-01-2008, 09:21 AM
so does this mean Mordenkainen's Disjunction will be in our spell list when the cap goes up?:D:eek:

Yeah, but they'll make it so it also affect player's objects within the area.:D

Missing_Minds
08-01-2008, 09:24 AM
Yeah, but they'll make it so it also affect player's objects within the area.:D

Meh, they'll just code it like the beholder's central eye.

Borror0
08-01-2008, 09:25 AM
I don't think we have casters that are high enough leveled yet to dispel anything Suulomades casts.

You're right. D'oh!

maddmatt70
08-01-2008, 09:30 AM
Note that Mantle of Invulnerability can be dispelled. He reapplies it occasionally, and you do have to make the Caster Level check. (At least, until you get Mordenkainen's Disjunction. That will make him sad.)

This is the sort of spell that would make it exciting for me to play an arcane in ddo. This is exactly the sort of versatility I like in pnp. Spells where you can really mix it up. I really enjoy dispel magic in pnp. Counterspelling and all the other fun applications of dispel magic. Debuffing/Necromatic, Illusions, enchantment spells, and a variety of transmutation spells. Really I would like to play a real pnp wizard not the ddo version. I never really liked fireballs, lightning bolts, firewalls, disintegrates, even one shot kill spells in pnp really it is all of the other crazy spells and ability to adapt to various situations on the fly that I find so fun.

Riot
08-01-2008, 09:52 AM
Bettter question...

Can the goggles puzzle be completed if one of the two people is DEAF?

yes I said DEAF.... we have a guildmate who is in fact deaf.

Is it Turbines stance that this is too bad so sad?

Turial
08-01-2008, 09:55 AM
Bettter question...

Can the goggles puzzle be completed if one of the two people is DEAF?

yes I said DEAF.... we have a guildmate who is in fact deaf.

Is it Turbines stance that this is too bad so sad?

Yes but deafness does raise some additional difficulties. Easiest way is though use of party chat to plan out the route and indicate readyness to proceed. You will have to rely on purely visual cues though for timing which is difficult, at least for me.

BGP
08-01-2008, 10:01 AM
Bettter question...

Can the goggles puzzle be completed if one of the two people is DEAF?

yes I said DEAF.... we have a guildmate who is in fact deaf.

Is it Turbines stance that this is too bad so sad?

Riot:

When we run that part, no voice is used. We shadow the person doing the guiding. It seems to work well.

Big-Dex
08-01-2008, 10:02 AM
Note that Mantle of Invulnerability can be dispelled. He reapplies it occasionally, and you do have to make the Caster Level check. (At least, until you get Mordenkainen's Disjunction. That will make him sad.)

Good tip and it sounds like the cap raise will give us a neat little trick.

Ran the Abbot further last night... and here a couple of reminders to self type things that might help others avoid a mistake or two...

1) Protect your ice wand casters on the platform. They are critical to making it to round 2.
2) Make sure your ice wand casters have themselves targetted when on the platform. Otherwise, they are likely to have an issue casting that ice wand on such short notice.

A couple of questions...

1) Has anyone observed any other visual clue as to when he is going to hit that inferno, save the five second notice you get when he starts it up? Anything that would give a little more of a heads up to get folks ready to cast an ice flow and jump to it?

2) Does anyone have an effective strategy that consistently gets them through the inferno?

Thanks for the help!

Big-Dex
08-01-2008, 10:06 AM
Riot:

When we run that part, no voice is used. We shadow the person doing the guiding. It seems to work well.


Aye! Silent shadowing is working best for us in here too. When we start trying to voice each other across, we mess up. The voice lag is just too much to overcome.

The only real coordination is to figure which row to go across and if it a "lane change" is needed, you might just type chat a visual clue to look for up front, like a jump or something to tell them when to lane change. It can be done quietly and will likely be more successful if done silently.

Wulf_Ratbane
08-01-2008, 10:40 AM
Bettter question...

Can the goggles puzzle be completed if one of the two people is DEAF?

yes I said DEAF.... we have a guildmate who is in fact deaf.

Is it Turbines stance that this is too bad so sad?

Making the leap from "Not accessible to the hearing-impaired" to "Too bad so sad" is more than a bit unfair to Turbine. Very trollish.

Riot
08-01-2008, 11:09 AM
You obviosuly never ran the first incarnation of the Titan.

Angelus_dead
08-01-2008, 12:14 PM
Note that Mantle of Invulnerability can be dispelled. He reapplies it occasionally, and you do have to make the Caster Level check.
When Mantle of Invulnerability was first introduced in module 3, I really thought I tried to dispel it and saw no roll offered. I'll have to try again.

The last I checked, normal mode Black Abbot was caster level 20. A level 16 cleric with Greater Dispel Magic would need to roll a 15 or better to dispel it, which is a 25% success rate. Since there's more of you than there are him, that should be easy. Back when it was possible to stack multiple firewalls in one place, that would've been an easy and rapid way to DPS him (what with the double damage to undead).

Also, it will apparently be a good idea for wizards to begin VOD missions with a Dispel + Enfeeble combo on Suulomades.

Angelus_dead
08-01-2008, 12:18 PM
I don't think we have casters that are high enough leveled yet to dispel anything Suulomades casts.
I've heard that Suulomades is level 30-32, meaning it would take a level 21 player character to dispel him.

MrCow
08-01-2008, 12:23 PM
The last I checked, normal mode Black Abbot was caster level 20.

Are you sure of this? Most monsters follow a simple rule of "Caster Level equal to Challenge Rating". My guess is the easiest way to find his caster level is check the duration of a symbol of weakness, as the damage spells should cap too early to be a caster level indicator. I'd check this myself, but I'm currently unable to for several hours.

Angelus_dead
08-01-2008, 12:25 PM
1) Has anyone observed any other visual clue as to when he is going to hit that inferno, save the five second notice you get when he starts it up? Anything that would give a little more of a heads up to get folks ready to cast an ice flow and jump to it?
Huh? Well the Abbot sends you a text message when it's time for Inferno. The text is either "I call the Inferno" or "Xendrick shall burn". I don't think there's any way to get an earlier warning.


2) Does anyone have an effective strategy that consistently gets them through the inferno?
After the puzzles are complete and before you return to the main room, stop and explain to everyone where the ice balls will be cast. South or Southwest is the usual place (behind the altar for some cover). Also, the two ice players discuss amoung themselves who will cast first, which is preferably the non-cleric, although in practice whoever gets there first casts first.

When the Abbot tells you it's Inferno time, you run to the designated spot, cast an iceball into the water, and everyone jumps onto it. While standing on the ball, 11 players get on one side and allow the other ice guy (whose wand is NOT on cooldown) free space to cast his own ball. He counts off when to do that (8 seconds seems to work, given that there was probably a delay when you started) and then spawns the second ball equally as far from the main platform as this one does. Then Inferno expires and you all jump back to the main platform and return to the fight.

Abbot will continue doing attacks, including more Infernos, so you want to rush back to DPSing him as fast as possible.

Angelus_dead
08-01-2008, 12:33 PM
Are you sure of this? Most monsters follow a simple rule of "Caster Level equal to Challenge Rating".
I was 100% sure in the past, because I could tell that to dispel his debuffs off a player required a roll of 17 (from a level 14 player character). That was the older version who used spells like Flesh To Stone, and the caster level may have changed since then.


My guess is the easiest way to find his caster level is check the duration of a symbol of weakness, as the damage spells should cap too early to be a caster level indicator.
Symbol of Weakness does not expire.

In the past Black Abbot had a debuff which showed a duration of 20 minutes, but his spell list has changed since then.

If you want to check his level, you should probably just go into the raid and start throwing Greater Dispel on him until it works.

Big-Dex
08-01-2008, 12:47 PM
When the Abbot tells you it's Inferno time, you run to the designated spot, cast an iceball into the water, and everyone jumps onto it. While standing on the ball, 11 players get on one side and allow the other ice guy (whose wand is NOT on cooldown) free space to cast his own ball. He counts off when to do that (8 seconds seems to work, given that there was probably a delay when you started) and then spawns the second ball equally as far from the main platform as this one does. Then Inferno expires and you all jump back to the main platform and return to the fight.

Abbot will continue doing attacks, including more Infernos, so you want to rush back to DPSing him as fast as possible.

From your experience, is it possible to live through inferno with only one ice float. Say one ice wand guy dies in the initial fight, will once float out last an inferno, or must a second float be cast?

Turial
08-01-2008, 12:53 PM
From your experience, is it possible to live through inferno with only one ice float. Say one ice wand guy dies in the initial fight, will once float out last an inferno, or must a second float be cast?

The first one will expire about half way though the inferno so it is unlikely that you can survive on one without going grey.

Lifespawn
08-01-2008, 04:48 PM
2 is deff needed sometimes 3 depending on how things go

Gruntus
08-01-2008, 05:41 PM
Just my 2 cents here. We've been running this quest pretty frequently and we have had some help from other servers who have, and do beat this every 3 days.

First of all, if you dont beat all 3 puzzles on your first pass, Start Over. You still have to survive an inferno shot after the first attempt. After taking him down again to 75% health and being ported away a second time, you will be too drained of resources to continue sucessfully. Everyone Ive talked to that runs this raid sucessfully will agree that first pass is the only way to go.

You do get ported away if you dont get the puzzles first try. Survive an Inferno and take him down again to 75% and he'll port you again. Take my word for it, if you do fail the first attempts at the puzzles, with only passing Ice for the wands, trying to res the dead party members, while attempting to stay alive after the iferno, and beating him down again to 75% will leave you really drained and not in any condition to face him a 3rd time.

The Inferno does 250HP per round damage and does almost as much SP drain each round after the first. The initial Inferno hit just drains HP. He casts it 5 Min after sending people to puzzles. So if you take a while on the puzzles, be prepared to face an almost imediate Inferno. Have Ice wands ready :) You have to be about 2 ice islands away from arena area to not be hit by inferno.

So, The way we run it is, take a very caster heavy party. Assign 6 people(mainly casters and people who can summon)to attack first. Do not heal them and wait for Abbott to kill them. Have the 6 that are not attacking run around the perimeter to avoid being cast on. After the Abbott kills them the remaining 6 each pick up 1 stone. Take him down to 75% and he'll port everyone with the stones they're holding to the puzzles. As someone stated before there should be no one left on the platform to fight when the abbott is healing. Its a constant problem dealing with the Weeps and Wraiths and too resource draining. Take 6 stones to the puzzles with you and you have twice the chance with runners and astroid destroyers or summoners.

Ice puzzle you can finish as normal without rezing the other 2 people untill you complete the challenge. Then the 2 peeps who completed can pick up new Ice Wands. Then rais the other 2 that you have with you, wait a few and the ice wands will respawn. Have the 2 you just rezed each pick up an ice wand. Now you have 4 people waiting at end of ice puzzle at portal, all with ice wands for Inferno survival.

The astroids are our biggest problem. The ONLY way we ever complete it is to summon ghouls, dispell them and flesh to stone them for shields. The reason you have most or all your casters attack the abbott first and die is so that you take a chance on getting 2 extra casters or umd users on top of astroid tower. Thats 2 extra people for summoning, dispelling and flesh to stoning. If you get 6-8 mobs stoned and use them for cover, you can then pick up rocks and try and pick off the majority of the astroids so you dont keep getting knocked around. There is no one I have spoken with that has a more successfull way of doing this challenge. Anyone who has attempted this puzzle more than 20 times will tell you that the astroids come too fast and from too many angles to allow simply throwing stones. You would have maybe a 1 in 50 shot at completing and thats just not good enough. Even with haste and fighters haste boost there are still too many and they come too fast.

And finally the tile challenge. The best way we have found is to completly shadow the person with the goggles. Have the person with the goggles stand at the tile you have to stop at first. Then TYPE "Go" in party chat and the runner knows to advance to you and stop. Then he shadows you completly. No Voice Chat is nessary for this puzzle. Make sure the person with the goggles makes no sudden movements unless they are planning on continuing as planned. This challenge use to be our biggest problem untill we started taking stones with us. Now you have twice the runners each way(long as no one dies on the first pass) and we succeed about 50% of the time. You can also set your character up so you can strafe perfectly down the row of tiles and never chance falling off sides of times. Have the runner hit the "T" button and enable Mouse Look Mode. Then run straight against a wall, adjusting your mouse very slightly untill your character runs perfectly straight without veering right or left. Then take your hand off the mouse and dont touch it again. Use only the W A S D or Forward, Backward, Strafe Left and Strafe Right buttons and your character will move in perfect 90 degree angles. This will allow you to FACE the side, towards the person with the googles and just strafe right without worrying about veering left or right off the tiles. I cant tell you how much that little trick helped us with accuracy.

If everything goes right, you will have 10-12 people at completed puzzle portals. You can fully buff and get ready to deal with an imediate inferno and to attack again. This time you just kick his butt untill he's dead. If you complete all puzzles first try he will not port anyone again.

I will be the first to agree that sending 6 to their death and porting them to puzzles with you, as well as summoning mobs to use as cover is not the most ideal way to go about this. However, this is just thinking outside the box. To beat this raid in the state its in now, you have to be a little creative or you will just fail. This is NOT considered exploiting. I have gotten that directly from a horses mouth, so to speak.

Feel free to PM me anytime with any questions or log in Khyber and look up Lyric, Gruntis or Cardinel and I'de be happy to VC with you. Hope this helps a little. Just trying to share some ideas and maybe help a little.

Gruntis

Big-Dex
08-01-2008, 06:35 PM
Thanks Gruntis! That is some good info!

Funny thing is that we have been going with that exact same tactic for past two weeks now. We just naturally worked our way to it out of necessity really. Neverthless, we are just getting pummeled by the asteroids and the phase tiles are not consistent for us yet. We have also ran most of the time with 9 or 10, instead of 12. This is hurting us too. We have been trying to survive the inferno too. You are right, it is just not easy to coordinate, but we are getting closer to getting the tactic down.

Let me throw a few wrinkles out there and see what you think...

Instead of ghouls, we are trying to use spiders. They offer a bigger foot print and don't shuffle around too much once stoned, plus there is the clickie end reward in Threnal that we are thinking of trying to use for the tanks to be able to cast one up there. We just started doing this last night really, but see some real benefits in it. I will post how that works out.

We are tossing about a different party make-up too, more heavy in its nature for sustained DPS. The casters can't sustain DPS due to manna constraints that heavy hittin, well equipped tanks can over the long haul. This is more with an eye toward getting through Round 2 to get a second stab at the asteroid puzzle. We have no data on this though because we have not really tried it yet. I will write an update once I do.

We are gonna give the dispel tip that Eladrin eludes to in this thread a try in our next run. If we can use firewall on him too, that will save some manna and open up a more persistent attack on him, while simultaneously hitting all his minions.

A couple of questions...

1) How that you are successfully doing it, how many stabs at it each time night before you the get the all three puzzles in round 1?

2) Did you find anything that helps with the second half of the phase tiles, where your partner is on the upper level and harder to see?

You did give us a few things to tweek already, so thanks again for the input and anything else you or anyone else can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
~ Dex

Angelus_dead
08-01-2008, 06:48 PM
Note that Mantle of Invulnerability can be dispelled. He reapplies it occasionally, and you do have to make the Caster Level check.
Ok, I give up: How can Mantle of Invulnerability be dispelled?

The obvious approach was Greater Dispel Magic, but that doesn't work. Just like when I tried to dispel Mantle off King Rayium when it was first added, players do not receive a dispel check against that defense. (Break Enchantment doesn't work either)

PS. I have confirmed that Black Abbot is still caster level 20, meaning a player character can beat him on a dispel check 25% of the time.

Big-Dex
08-01-2008, 07:20 PM
Ok, I give up: How can Mantle of Invulnerability be dispelled?

The obvious approach was Greater Dispel Magic, but that doesn't work. Just like when I tried to dispel Mantle off King Rayium when it was first added, players do not receive a dispel check against that defense. (Break Enchantment doesn't work either)

PS. I have confirmed that Black Abbot is still caster level 20, meaning a player character can beat him on a dispel check 25% of the time.


I can concur... 4 of us tried to dispel him and we are not getting a roll. The combat log simply says, "You hit black abbot with greater dispel magic." No roll or anything. It also says later on "Greater Dispel Magic" and nothing else???

What say ye Eladrin?

maddmatt70
08-01-2008, 07:47 PM
I will be the first to agree that sending 6 to their death and porting them to puzzles with you, as well as summoning mobs to use as cover is not the most ideal way to go about this. However, this is just thinking outside the box. To beat this raid in the state its in now, you have to be a little creative or you will just fail. This is NOT considered exploiting. I have gotten that directly from a horses mouth, so to speak.



I have heard that these are the tactics alot of the successful groups (perhaps all) have to use. I understand that it is broken and such, but wish that tactics such as these were not necessary to reliably complete the raid. They really shouldn't be. I don't like the raid at this point and have avoided jumping in there despite the prodding of people like Mavnimo and the "Abbot Ambassador" himself Dimz (I once did 25 hours of abbot practice in two days). Creativity is great and although this is not considered exploiting it clearly was not the intent of the developers...

MrCow
08-01-2008, 08:12 PM
I can also confirm that the Mantle of Invulnerability is unable to be dispelled. When I put effects on the Black Abbot like Symbol of Pain and Globe of Invulnerability those will make dispel checks, yet the mantle remains untouched.

Turial
08-01-2008, 08:57 PM
Another question is can it be dispelled by players currently...if the disjunction spell that was referenced earlier is added that maybe the only way to do it.
Ok, I give up: How can Mantle of Invulnerability be dispelled?

The obvious approach was Greater Dispel Magic, but that doesn't work. Just like when I tried to dispel Mantle off King Rayium when it was first added, players do not receive a dispel check against that defense. (Break Enchantment doesn't work either)

PS. I have confirmed that Black Abbot is still caster level 20, meaning a player character can beat him on a dispel check 25% of the time.

Big-Dex
08-01-2008, 09:12 PM
Unless I am mistaken, the Abbot is a CR24 on normal. That means we need to roll a 35 to score the dispel based on the description of Greater Dispel, meaning that a lvl 16 caster will need to roll a 20 (or at best 19-20) to hit it. Nevetheless, we are not getting the roles for the check, so it doesn't work regardless.

MrCow
08-01-2008, 09:37 PM
Unless I am mistaken, the Abbot is a CR24 on normal. That means we need to roll a 35 to score the dispel based on the description of Greater Dispel

Challenge Rating is not the same as Caster Level. Many times it will be, but not always.

jkm
08-01-2008, 10:58 PM
i have a question for everyone in this thread. when you run across the titan tiles to the final illithid do you have a stuttering motion on your screen like you've fallen through several times only to stay on the tiles 95% of the time to the other end? that is the kind of latency that i have which makes it impossible for me to direct someone through the phase tiles. i say 95% of the time because i fall through the titan bridge every once in a while just like the one time i almost got all the way to the other end and fell through when the guy with the goggles was like dude it was solid. now if this were any other quest i just wouldn't go to that room because i have a limitation that jeopardizes the raid.

Torosar
08-02-2008, 12:40 AM
7) Is this quest consistently doable on the live servers as it sets now, without exploits and "unusual" tactics?
Yes.

I really hope this isn't what you refer to when you say yes.




The astroids are our biggest problem. The ONLY way we ever complete it is to summon ghouls, dispell them and flesh to stone them for shields. The reason you have most or all your casters attack the abbott first and die is so that you take a chance on getting 2 extra casters or umd users on top of astroid tower. Thats 2 extra people for summoning, dispelling and flesh to stoning.

Kromize
08-02-2008, 02:18 AM
The Black Abbot Raid
The three trials contained within the Black Abbot raid no longer need to all be completed in a single teleport pass.
The Black Abbot will now send you back to the three trials if you have not yet beaten them, rather than simply continuing the battle immortal.
The Black Abbot should no longer hit you with telekenesis while you are in another room.

Mod 6 release notes...http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=134224

(;

Just thought I would post this after reaing a few posts...

BlackSteel
08-02-2008, 07:29 AM
i have a question for everyone in this thread. when you run across the titan tiles to the final illithid do you have a stuttering motion on your screen like you've fallen through several times only to stay on the tiles 95% of the time to the other end? that is the kind of latency that i have which makes it impossible for me to direct someone through the phase tiles. i say 95% of the time because i fall through the titan bridge every once in a while just like the one time i almost got all the way to the other end and fell through when the guy with the goggles was like dude it was solid. now if this were any other quest i just wouldn't go to that room because i have a limitation that jeopardizes the raid.

slow down and that wont happen, the tiles dont tend to appear till you approach them. The titan tiles are different b/c they appear based upon the character. The abbott tiles are a set puzzle, and will phase in and out on their own. You couldve fallen off right before it became solid, or you could have gone over the side if you're character wasnt aligned properly, and your guide failed to mention you were approaching the edge. Or very well you did fall thru a solid floor, that quest is buggy enough to make it believable. But I do know that taking it slow on the titan tiles ensures you never fall, haste and barb movement is enough to get the almost falling animation, but jumping back up when the tile appears, sprint boost just send you straight down to the floor.

jkm
08-02-2008, 10:28 AM
i don't even have a barbarian. it happens regardless of whether i'm on my hasted sorc/bard or i'm on my rogue whose striding item is in the same slot as her feather fall item. in the abbot as the tiles start to fade i get the stuttering falling motion i get in the titan. if i panic jump, i fall through. the major difference is that in the titan i can hit an air pad and still get back up. in the abbot, i die and the raid is over.

lets take twilight forge as an example. it has a couple of places where if someone dies alone the raid is over (on the green side).

tweaking it to be like the abbot:

if you die you lose your crystal
the factory floor is invisible so someone has to guide you along with all mobs being invisible
the platforms and bridges on the green side phase in and out every 8 seconds
the water in the red side is powered by crucible fans and they've added spikes
while running across the phase bridges if you fall you die. there are also giant meteors trying to knock you off

Mithran
08-02-2008, 11:19 AM
There has been some frustration with the Abbot, on Khyber. I thought I'd read from Risia (before the LotD 3 was installed) that people were beating the Asteroids by just playing Asteroids, there. Nevertheless, I watched Dimz's YouTube video of him hanging onto the flagpole and just 'hanging out' until the asteroid supply had been exhausted, and he said when I was doing practice runs with him (there were only a few) that it seemed the best way. Now though, I infer that the top edge of the platform will push you away from the column if you don't time your jump and grab correctly (a dynamic we're all very familiar with from Against the Demon Queen's 'Mockery' section, The Stones Run Red, and Coalescence Chamber) and have your actively grasping hands land below the top of the platform and above the flagpole.

jkm told me that the main issue he has with the raid is that there's no room for error. For the raid to be completed as I believe the developers had initially intended, all the puzzles would have to be completed without error. jkm abovethread points out the safeties one encounters, elsewhere. I'm sympathetic, knowing how many hours he's put into this raid.

Nevertheless, I anxiously await a response from those guilds on other servers who are completing this regularly with twelve-man crews. In the last evening The Hand spent in there, we came closest to succeeding on our first attempt, but it's hard to convince people that they should stick with it when there remains so much crafting left to do in The Shroud (with relatively little prospect of frustration), and when the alarm clock sounds off so early.

Big-Dex
08-02-2008, 12:07 PM
So far... all who have posted are using what can be best described as "unusual tactics" to tackle this RAID (myself included). So far, those "unusual tactics" include...

Letting half of the party die in the first fight and taking their soul stones to the puzzles to double up on puzzle attempts
Using flesh-to-stoned summoned pets to provide protection in the asteroid room
Hanging over the edge in the asteroid room to avoid the asteroids
If you don't get all of the puzzles done on the first try (using these tactics), recall out and try again rather than press on to complete round 2 of the fight to get a second attempt at the puzzles not completed in round 1While not deemed exploitive, but rather, creative, they are "unusual." Though "unusual," these tactics are not real easy to pull off, get expensive for the player to run and are not as fun as it would be to do this straight-up, but folks want to get this quest done. They want to run this quest, but are at a loss to know how in its present state.

I second Mithran's post. It would sure be nice to hear from those who are not using these types of "unusual tactics" ... but doing it "straight up" as the designers intended. Eladrin says this quest is doable not using "exploits" or "unusual tactics." I believe he has reason to make that statement. So if you are doing it this way, please consider chiming in for the benefit of the community with your successful "straight up" tactics. Nevertheless, the "unusual tactics" are welcome too.

I'd like to think this post is helpful to some. I know it is for me. So thanks in advance to all.
~ Dex

Angelus_dead
08-02-2008, 12:13 PM
Hanging over the edge in the asteroid room to avoid the asteroids
That appeared to have become impossible during the module 7 update.


# If you don't get all of the puzzles done on the first try (using these tactics), recall out and try again rather than press on to complete round 2 of the fight to get a second attempt at the puzzles not completed in round
That is NOT questionable, and is not unusual except insofar as it is a reaction to the weird and unfair rules used by the raid.

Given that it is IMPOSSIBLE to win the raid without beating the puzzles, even though you don't really need to use the prizes from the asteroid and chasm puzzles do survive the corresponding special attacks (unlike the ice wands which are highly useful to survive inferno), it's only sensible to give up and try again.

The puzzles ARE the objective. If you fail the objective, then naturally that means your quest was a failure and should be repeated.

Big-Dex
08-02-2008, 12:44 PM
Given that it is IMPOSSIBLE to win the raid without beating the puzzles, even though you don't really need to use the prizes from the asteroid and chasm puzzles do survive the corresponding special attacks (unlike the ice wands which are highly useful to survive inferno), it's only sensible to give up and try again.

The puzzles ARE the objective. If you fail the objective, then naturally that means your quest was a failure and should be repeated.

I agree Angelus ... however, I am not saying it is "unusual" to give up and start again if you fail the objectives in such a way that success is impossible. That is your only option at that point. Of course this statement recognizes that "impossible" is a fluid word right now when speaking of the Abbot RAID. I use it in the strictest sense of the word.

However, as it stands now, it is not "designed" to be a failure if you achieve, at the least, the "ice wand" puzzle in Round 1. You can theoretically use that to survive inferno, get sent back to the puzzles, succeed on the puzzles after another fight with the Abbot and proceed to win!

So, what I said still holds true. The "designed" tactic is to press on to round 2 and beat the puzzles (note the patch notes for this RAID posted previous in this thread). Therefore, it is an "unusual" tactic, in contrast to what was intended, to only press on if you get all three puzzles done on the first try. That is not how the quest was designed.

Really, it is an argument in semantics either way, so... fwiw.



That appeared to have become impossible during the module 7 update.

I thought so too, but had heard rumors of some still able to do it. Mithran's post suggests that it is still possible (granted, I could have misread him). So, I included it in the list.

~ Dex

Mithran
08-02-2008, 01:20 PM
I have not tried grabbing the flagpole. What we're left with there, then, is to beat the game of Asteroids, I guess.

Gruntus
08-02-2008, 04:48 PM
The reason we use Ghouls in the astroid puzzle is because they are the same size shield as a Spider. If you target any mob you see the White Circle targeting them. That size spot is the only cover you get. A spider is physically larger than a ghoul, but the size of the area that blocks for you is the same. So, 4 ghouls is 4 times the cover than just 1 spider. So if we get lucky and get to the astroid puzzle with another 2 casters or summoners, we can get about 10-16 ghouls stoned and stand in the center of them without getting knocked around much at all. Even with 4 well placed stoned spiders you are gonna get knocked around everywhere. And thanks to everyone bugging mobs with create undead, they took the scrolls off the vendors so you have to have been stocked from before Mod7 or able to cast it.

Before we started summoning for help in the astroid puzzle, we would try over and over to throw the astroids down the intended way. It really doesnt take you long to figure out that it will never work. No matter how you try to cordinate standing N or S or getting each others back you just keep getting blindsided. The reason that no one has come forward to say that they can do this puzzle the traditional way is because you cant. I'm not saying that at some point someone hasnt gotten lucky and finished it, I'm just saying that there is no way you can count on being able to finish the puzzle this way reliably. All the guilds that are completing this raid are summoning for cover.

I have tried more times than I can count to hang off the edge in the astroids and have never gotten it or seen anyone get it. It is a cool YouTube video of Valk hanging out, but he told me that out off all the countless times he had tried that, he had landed it TWICE.

Our guild has never beaten this raid straight up. We can, and have on many occasions completed all the puzzles, but never at the same time lol. This quest has frustrated us for a long time now, which is why I have no problem sharing any info we have.



When I first read that guilds had started beating this raid on other servers I PM'd some of the officers of those guilds to ask for advise. I either got no response at all, or I got some weak excusses why they wont share any tactics or stratgies they had come up with. WEAK. Our guild on Aundair The Hand of The Black Tower, was the first guild in the game to take down the TF raid after the Nerf. We posted the success on the server forums and general forums. We had people right away knocking us about being full of **** and cheating or exploiting. So I postesd the way you control the direction the pillars fall, how many times you hit him and everything else we had learned from running it so much. Within the next week there were pop ups all over the boards of completions on all the servers. So I ask the guild leaders who never responded to me or the ones with the weak excusses for not sharing their stratgies, why? Are you too elite or is your guild too elite to help others? Being Elite is setting the stratgies that others will follow.

Ask Riott from the Twilight Avengers on Khyber if with all the raids they have been the first to complete, did they ever try and cover their stratgies or instruct their guild members not to tell anyone? Nope, they set the bar and the stratgies for others to follow. Some of you other Guild Leaders should take some notes.


Gruntis :)

miceelf88
08-04-2008, 07:18 AM
What level of internet connection is required to beat the raid, or even have a chance of doing so?

Angelus_dead
08-04-2008, 10:54 AM
Note that Mantle of Invulnerability can be dispelled. He reapplies it occasionally, and you do have to make the Caster Level check.
Hi Eladrin! Maybe you missed the responses in this thread over the weekend. So- do you have any comment as to how players cannot actually dispel Mantle of Invulnerability like you said?

It's not a matter of an unbeatable caster level check, because no dispel attempt is given at all.

And, while I'm pestering you, I will ask too more questions in the colored format:

1) Which of DDO's raids is the hardest, based on lowest number of completions?

2) Which of DDO's raids has the worst generic loot, based on number of chests in the final raid instance?

Big-Dex
08-04-2008, 11:10 AM
What level of internet connection is required to beat the raid, or even have a chance of doing so?

I am not so sure it is a matter of a certain level of internet connection so much as it is a matter of your latency being comparable to the person you are paired with in a puzzle room. If your latency differs by too much, you will have a very difficult time of the puzzles, as they are not very forgiving when it comes to lag/latency issues. The phase tile room suffers from lag on several fronts, voice being the worst of it. It is hard to achieve any kind of sync with the in-game voice delay, but we have worked around that by mirroring one another and not using the voice. However, we still have to deal with lag spikes and such causing us to run too far, not stop soon enough, etc. This same thing also holds true for the asteroids. If you are lagging and your partner is not, your partner is going to get pummelled with asteroids he is counting on you to hit that you have not even seen yet because you are lagged a second behind (doing it straight up, of course). The ice flow room is a tad bit more forgiving to lag, but even then, I (as I am sure most here can attest also) have countless times been the victim of lag spike mid-jump between ice flows only to take the death plunge! Lag/latency issues are what make this quest so difficult.

This is why folks are using "unusual tactics." They seem like our only means of overcoming lag issues to beat this RAID, but they are not without their own challenges as well. If there are other guilds pulling it off "straight up" despite the lag issues, they are not speaking in this thread, or anywhere else on the forums for that matter of their tactics (which is too bad). It would be interesting to know if some of those folks live near each other, have the same ISPs, have comparable latencies, and such forth. This would say alot for their ability to do these puzzles "straight up" .. assuming of course these folks are doing it "straight up."

Feel free to correct me on this if I am mistaken on the impact of lag/latency. I am by no means an expert on it.

~ Dex

jkm
08-04-2008, 11:22 AM
i'm missing how having similar latency helps you in the phase tile puzzle. if i'm at 121 ms and another person is at 121 latency that is 500 ms + my reaction time + the other person's reaction time between when i see a tile to move, i move, he sees me move, he moves.

trip from server to me (121) + my reaction time to move + return trip to server (121) + server processing time (25) + push to his client (121) + his reaction time to move + communication with server (121) + server processing time (25)

this doesn't even count the lag spikes that you see in the room. as mith can attest we've had voice chat lag so bad that a guy was literally 2 minutes behind in his communication to us. it was so bad that he was still talking AFTER we left group.

miceelf88
08-04-2008, 11:46 AM
That's my general impression. I guess I continue to have a mix of encouragement and disappointment about this. I mean, I'm glad to see Eladrin respond at all, but his general "everything is working fine" tone is kind of distressing. As you note, this quest seems to be designed with an assumption that people rarely experience latency issues or lag spikes. That just strikes me as really short-sighted. I mean, I know that other quests have "timing" and communication requirements (e.g., the titan pre-raid or the von pre-raid), but those have no penalty for not getting it exactly right the first time, other than some loss of time. This raid seems to pretty much impose a death/raid failure penalty for having what amounts to average latency, and for having a lag spike occur. I really wonder what kinds of assumptions the devs have about latency and the frequency of lag.

Angelus_dead
08-04-2008, 11:47 AM
i'm missing how having similar latency helps you in the phase tile puzzle. if i'm at 121 ms and another person is at 121 latency that is 500 ms + my reaction time + the other person's reaction time between when i see a tile to move, i move, he sees me move, he moves.
DDO uses separate channels for voice and data, and the voice chat will always have more latency than data, because it has an additional delay built into the audio protocol.

Here's the procedure for if you wanted to tell your teammate when it was safe to move forward.
1. Server changes tile status.
2. Guide player views new tile status. data_g ms
3. Guide player says "Go!".
4. Guide computer waits a configurable delay before sending chat. voice_chunk ms
5. Chat server receives "Go!". voice_g ms
6. Chat server sends "Go!" to runner player.
7. Runner player hears "Go!". voice_r ms
8. Runner player pushes "W" button to go forward.
9. Server receives position/velocity update from runner. data_r ms.

So the total time for the runner to react to a change on the server is
data_g + voice_chunk + voice_g + voice_r + data_r
voice_chunk can be set to 100 ms in the options, I think. If the others were all also 100 ms, then the total time comes to 500 ms, but of course that is not only using unrealistically low values for some latencies, but also pretends the humans in the loop have a zero millisecond response delay.

If the latencies for the separate players are non-equal, then that doesn't matter except in that it increases the total delay between the server condition and the runner's reactions.

I'll leave with an anecdote: if your party is attempting to guide tile runners with voice chat, it is quite typical to watch a dead runner's ghost appear on the main platform and then 2-3 seconds later hear the guide say "Okay stop ahead and wait... no I said stop you idiot!"

Big-Dex
08-04-2008, 11:55 AM
i'm missing how having similar latency helps you in the phase tile puzzle. if i'm at 121 ms and another person is at 121 latency that is 500 ms + my reaction time + the other person's reaction time between when i see a tile to move, i move, he sees me move, he moves.

trip from server to me (121) + my reaction time to move + return trip to server (121) + server processing time (25) + push to his client (121) + his reaction time to move + communication with server (121) + server processing time (25)

this doesn't even count the lag spikes that you see in the room. as mith can attest we've had voice chat lag so bad that a guy was literally 2 minutes behind in his communication to us. it was so bad that he was still talking AFTER we left group.

Like I said, I am no expert. Unless my calculations are mistaken, with equal latency time, it seems you are both dealing with the same delay between you and server. That means, regardless of the latency, you will both be seeing each other while mirroring on a pretty equal footing.

However, if your latency differs greatly from your partner's latency, then you are going to have an issue. It seems to me, the "return trip from server to you" in your calculation above is irrelevant, as while it is making the return trip to you, it is simultaneously making the trip from the server to your partner. That is why I am guessing that if your latency differs greatly, you will have bigger issues. Let's say your latency is 50ms and his latency is 121ms. he is seeing everything you do with a 71ms delay. As I understand it, because the length of those tiles is not very much (taking into consideration haste and various other factors), if you stop too close to an edge a tile and the next tile is off, that lag is more than enough to cause him to run right over the edge by the time he actually sees you stop on his monitor.

Does this make sense or am I wrong in my thinking? Once again, I am no expert on this, so I am thinking out loud here.

~ Dex

jkm
08-04-2008, 11:56 AM
a_d, we figured that out really quickly. however, the person in question wasn't one for listening to anyone on the first try. my point is even with "shadowing" there is a ton of traffic delay and even then it introduces some entertaining issues.

1. the fact that we always drift one way or the other
2. the fact that there are pillars in the way that don't perfectly align to tiles. a couple of failures have happened because the shadow has to clear a pillar to see the tiles but that forces the runner to go to far and off hte tile
3. the fact that every PC runs at a different speed. the worst is when you are on a sorc and you have a cleric below you who has no striding item. he has no chance to get across.
4. the fact that you can barely see the 4th path from the shadow position and can't see the shadow from that far away

Big-Dex
08-04-2008, 11:58 AM
I'll leave with an anecdote: if your party is attempting to guide tile runners with voice chat, it is quite typical to watch a dead runner's ghost appear on the main platform and then 2-3 seconds later hear the guide say "Okay stop ahead and wait... no I said stop you idiot!"

ROFL!!!! That is sooooo true!

jkm
08-04-2008, 12:02 PM
Like I said, I am no expert. Unless my calculations are mistaken, with equal latency time, it seems you are both dealing with the same delay between you and server. That means, regardless of the latency, you will both be seeing each other while mirroring on a pretty equal footing.

However, if your latency differs greatly from your partner's latency, then you are going to have an issue. It seems to me, the "return trip from server to you" in your calculation above is irrelevant, as while it is making the return trip to you, it is simultaneously making the trip from the server to your partner. That is why I am guessing that if your latency differs greatly, you will have bigger issues. Let's say your latency is 50ms and his latency is 121ms. he is seeing everything you do with a 71ms delay. As I understand it, because the length of those tiles is not very much (taking into consideration haste and various other factors), if you stop too close to an edge a tile and the next tile is off, that lag is more than enough to cause him to run right over the edge by the time he actually sees you stop on his monitor.

Does this make sense or am I wrong in my thinking? Once again, I am no expert on this, so I am thinking out loud here.

~ Dex


me------50----------server---------------------------------121-------------him

the only transaction that you see quicker is server transaction that involve you and the environment. you don't see his reactions any quicker because the latency is static between him and the server. humorously you see changes to your partner and the environment quicker than he does.

my updates to me look like 50ms + 50 ms
his updates to him look like 121ms + 121 ms
my updates to him look like 50ms + 121 ms
his updates to you look like 121ms + 50 ms

Angelus_dead
08-04-2008, 12:05 PM
3. the fact that every PC runs at a different speed. the worst is when you are on a sorc and you have a cleric below you who has no striding item. he has no chance to get across.
It's just a given that every member of an Abbot team must carry haste and jump items/potions.

Angelus_dead
08-04-2008, 12:07 PM
However, if your latency differs greatly from your partner's latency, then you are going to have an issue.
That's true, but only because all low latencies are about the same. If the two players have greatly different latency, that means they don't both have low latency. Which means that one of them has bad latency, and thus is likely to have problems.

Put another way, if A has 150 latency and B has 50 latency, it wouldn't improve things for B to somehow slow down to 150, even though that would reduce the difference between them.

Big-Dex
08-04-2008, 12:28 PM
me------50----------server---------------------------------121-------------him

the only transaction that you see quicker is server transaction that involve you and the environment. you don't see his reactions any quicker because the latency is static between him and the server. humorously you see changes to your partner and the environment quicker than he does.

my updates to me look like 50ms + 50 ms
his updates to him look like 121ms + 121 ms
my updates to him look like 50ms + 121 ms
his updates to you look like 121ms + 50 ms


Okay, that makes sense. Nicely explained.

So, his increased latency will make it harder for him to wear the goggles and guide you across the tiles, since the delay is longer for him between him and actual environment (the tiles)? Correct? His latency should not be an issue when he is not counting on the environment, since he can't see his environment - the tiles. He has to trust you to lead him across.

Now barring unplayable latency issues (such as lag spikes or bad latency issues), to overcome some of that issue, it would be wiser to stop at the front edge of a tile rather than the middle or back edge. The actual tile "on-time" of a tile on normal is about 10 seconds (not including the red warning time). That gives you more than enough time to move across that tile to the next from the front edge to the back edge, eliminating some of the "running too far" mistakes that take place when you try and stop on the back edge, which most people do (so they can quickly go to the next tile).

Am I wrong?

~ Dex

jkm
08-04-2008, 12:50 PM
Okay, that makes sense. Nicely explained.

So, his increased latency will make it harder for him to wear the goggles and guide you across the tiles, since the delay is longer for him between him and actual environment (the tiles)? Correct? His latency should not be an issue when he is not counting on the environment, since he can't see the his environment - the tiles. He has to trust you to lead him across.

Now barring unplayable latency issues (such as lag spikes), to overcome some of that issue, it would be wiser to stop at the front edge of a tile rather than the middle or back edge. The actual tile "on-time" of a tile on normal is about 10 seconds (not including the red warning time). That gives you more than enough time to move across that tile to the next from the front edge to the back edge, eliminating some of the "running too far" mistakes that take place when you try and stop on the back edge, which most people do (so they can quickly go to the next tile).

Am I wrong?

~ Dex

this is what we've done in the past, however, there are still issues

1. the pillars - its incedibly hard to stop in the middle of a tile consistantly because of the visual interference from them. you have to be on one side or the other to see the tiles

2. patience - pre-monk the best way to get across the titan bridges is to be patient. you run and jump in the air and land on a single tile then jump on to the bridges. how many times do people fall before they get it? what percentage of a group can get across them, while they are able to see the bridges. in the groups i've been , there were 1 to 2 people that would get the levers. these guys were vets of 100's of runs, yet they still would fall once or twice. as a matter of a fact, it was so annoyingly difficult a lot of people would just death pull on yellow just so they didn't have to do the bridges. lets take a minute and think about whether the twilight forge would be completed to this day if you fell once you lost your sigils?

3. you see his updates before he does. so if you try to tweak his position, you have no idea if he isn't going to do the same in the latency. because any move he makes will happen before he sees you moving to adjust him. this is what totally kills me when i'm the guide in the first part.

Angelus_dead
08-08-2008, 11:42 AM
Note that Mantle of Invulnerability can be dispelled. He reapplies it occasionally, and you do have to make the Caster Level check.
Still no answer on this?

Maybe Eladrin was out of the office this week.

Jondallar
08-08-2008, 01:02 PM
we have found that ppl from australia have a consistent lag compared to those that live closer to each other

Josh
08-08-2008, 01:55 PM
Hi Eladrin! Maybe you missed the responses in this thread over the weekend. So- do you have any comment as to how players cannot actually dispel Mantle of Invulnerability like you said?

It's not a matter of an unbeatable caster level check, because no dispel attempt is given at all.

And, while I'm pestering you, I will ask too more questions in the colored format:

1) Which of DDO's raids is the hardest, based on lowest number of completions?

2) Which of DDO's raids has the worst generic loot, based on number of chests in the final raid instance?

Funny how when pressed for REAL answers the developers run like cockroaches when you turn the lights on, isn't it? That must really suck to have to duck and hide all the time.

Angelus_dead
08-08-2008, 07:46 PM
Funny how when pressed for REAL answers the developers run like cockroaches when you turn the lights on, isn't it? That must really suck to have to duck and hide all the time.
Actually those were rhetorical questions. Everybody knows that Abbot has the fewest completions of any raid, and also that Abbot has only 1 chest, compared to 2-4 after every other raid boss.

I was just asking those questions as a way to underscore that the answers to them are absurd. You are quite correct that the devs are in an unpleasant position of having to avoid talking about the Abbot raid in public because the answers would be negative for them... the correct response to that discomfort would be to fix the raid so that it's no longer an embarrassment.

Honestly, I would not expect a question like the number of chests to be answered, unless it was as a way to slip in an announcement by the side "and the Abbot has been building up bigger and bigger piles of loot from the adventurers he's destroyed"

SkyCry
09-04-2008, 05:15 AM
Another question for devs, if I may:

8) Is teleporting to puzzles with teammates' soul stones considered an exploit or valid tactic? That is teleporting with someone's soul stone in your inventory and later resurrecting them to have more than 2 people for each puzzle. After all the actions made (picking up soul stone, resurrecting person, etc.) are definitely not an exploit anywhere in the game.

Angelus_dead
09-04-2008, 08:29 AM
After all the actions made (picking up soul stone, resurrecting person, etc.) are definitely not an exploit anywhere in the game.
Those actions have absolutely and positively been exploits elsewhere.

To say that an action is not an exploit because the component actions are also not exploits is to say that nothing is an exploit because it's also comprised of keystroke and mouse clicks in certain combinations.

SkyCry
09-04-2008, 09:42 AM
Those actions have absolutely and positively been exploits elsewhere.

To say that an action is not an exploit because the component actions are also not exploits is to say that nothing is an exploit because it's also comprised of keystroke and mouse clicks in certain combinations.

There's a world of difference between unintentional tactic and an exploit.
If I pick up someone's soul stone, I do what soul stone is *designed for* - pick up and move to safe place.
If I raise dead, I do what the spell is *designed for* - cast on a soul of fallen teammate and grant him new life.
When I pick up soul stone, move elsewhere and raise dead, I still do what this combination was *designed for*.
The only thing that's different in Abbot is that I get teleported somewhere against my will and, of course, it doesn't ask me if I want to drop soul stones that I have in my possession - it just teleports me. How can I do something against it? Do I have to stop playing just because some quest scripting might force me to do something unintended?

Anyway, that was a question to devs, who have the authority to answer it.

Angelus_dead
09-04-2008, 09:51 AM
There's a world of difference between unintentional tactic and an exploit.
No. If you pick up a soul stone in the Abbot raid, you are trying to move extra players to puzzle rooms. There is no where else you can go, and picking up a soulstone would be a complete waste of time unless you anticipate carrying it when you are teleported.

There's nothing unintentional about it on the player's side.

Oh, and newsflash: unintended consequences of standard rules is where exploits come from.

Razvan
09-04-2008, 10:26 AM
No. If you pick up a soul stone in the Abbot raid, you are trying to move extra players to puzzle rooms. There is no where else you can go, and picking up a soulstone would be a complete waste of time unless you anticipate carrying it when you are teleported.

There's nothing unintentional about it on the player's side.

Oh, and newsflash: unintended consequences of standard rules is where exploits come from.

Here are two situations, which for you I am sure are the same, but for me are completely different:

- remember the "soulstone" exploit on the Restless Isles?...When you were trying to get someone ported to the pre-req quests for the Titan without them having finsihed those quests the first time? The tactic was to speak with the guide until he let you pass (which was a few times if I remember, because he would alwasy "notice" that soulstone in your bag and refuse you passage). --- now that was an exploit!!!

- the Abbot issue with teh soulstones?...you pick it up, you are ported to another room and you rez your team mate...nowehere and at no time are you being challenged by a game mechanic because you are carrying that stone! ---result? NOT and exploit!

Angelus_dead
09-04-2008, 10:47 AM
- remember the "soulstone" exploit on the Restless Isles?...When you were trying to get someone ported to the pre-req quests for the Titan without them having finsihed those quests the first time? The tactic was to speak with the guide until he let you pass (which was a few times if I remember, because he would alwasy "notice" that soulstone in your bag and refuse you passage). --- now that was an exploit!!!
Wrong. I'll have to explain the actual history to you.

When Module 2 was first released, there were the ogre and wildman guide who would teleport pre-approved characters to a destination. Characters who had not yet walked there on their own could not be transported. It was discovered that having someone /death and grabbing his soulstone would let you carry him to the destination without him having to walk. That was an exploit, because it used existing mechanics in an unintentional way to get an advantage.

Some time later, the devs put a check on the ogre and wildman guides so they would refuse to transport someone with a soulstone in his inventory. However, players would ***** ***** **** whatever scrubbed. In software terminology that's called a "race condition". Using that method to bypass the anti-soulstone check was also an exploit.


- the Abbot issue with teh soulstones?...you pick it up, you are ported to another room and you rez your team mate...nowehere and at no time are you being challenged by a game mechanic because you are carrying that stone! ---result? NOT and exploit!
Non sequitur.

Talon_Moonshadow
09-04-2008, 10:58 AM
You don't know how bad I want to be able to complete this raid! Legitimately!
And I have no choice other than PUG it.

Please, I am begging you devs! Change it so it is possible to complete for a PUG group with as much practice as any other raid/quest in the game!

In the classic video games those puzzels are based on, we got at least three lifes, with a chance to get more as we advanced.

How successful would asteroids have been if we only got one try for our quarter?! And at the time a quarter was a lot of money for a kid! A weeks allowance for some. Now try to convince 11 friends to all spend their weeks allowance on one shot at asteroids!

They would give up real fast. (of course some kid would be able to do it and tell everyone else it was easy.....and some one would discover that you could hit the side of the game cabinet, and hold the up arrow key, and never die......etc.........but that doesn't mean that it is doable by most, or fun for most.....etc.)

asdfss
09-04-2008, 11:18 AM
So players are essentially creating a new spell "Wall of undead statues".

Maybe the devs should throw you a bone and actually implement wall of force or wall of ice or wall of stone.

Borror0
09-04-2008, 11:24 AM
the Abbot issue with teh soulstones?...you pick it up, you are ported to another room and you rez your team mate...nowehere and at no time are you being challenged by a game mechanic because you are carrying that stone! ---result? NOT and exploit!

As AD said, there are no reason you'd pick up a Soul Stone in the Abbot, but for that reason.

Razvan
09-04-2008, 11:32 AM
As AD said, there are no reason you'd pick up a Soul Stone in the Abbot, but for that reason.


Yes, but look at the Restles Isle history...they put the check on the "soulstone in invenotry" after they discovered people were using said exploit.

That hasn't happened yet with the Abbot, and I find it very hard to believe that: 1) They did not think that someone might use the same exploit that was used to death in a quest a few months prior; and 2) That if indeed they overlooked that fact and realized later that people were doing the same thing again, they did not, in many of their patches, place the SAME mechanism used on the guides to prevent people from taking stones with them when they are teleported.

A lot of exploits are being fixed as soon as possible after being discovered, so one can only surmise that if the devs don't come out here and say "Stop using the soulstone tactic because it is an exploit" AND the "issue" isn't "fixed", then it is OK to keep using the tactic!

asdfss
09-04-2008, 11:40 AM
Funny how when pressed for REAL answers the developers run like cockroaches when you turn the lights on, isn't it? That must really suck to have to duck and hide all the time.

If the dispel issue is a bug. Then eladrin may take much longer to answer than for something that is supposed to be true.

Mainly because they would have a) figure out whether it was really a bug and b) to track down the bug.

It would be unwise to come in without doing the former. But either way the Abbot raid is wonky in a number of ways AD has already described. So who knows what the deal is? Or cares really?

What is the point of conquering something that is obviously poorly put together and has bad rewards?

The 5 minute or 5 minute tradeoff for the puzzles is just plain bad design frankly. What would be "unusual" in that case is actually taking the worhtles waste of code second option of letting him beat on you some more.

I can appreciate people wanting to do it. But it sounds like a waste of time. Maybe fun for a lark but to repeatedly pound away at something that comes down to essentially luck. Meh.

As far as I can tell the only way to get any real consistency is to do "unusual" things most of which are a little silly. Creative and props to the the people who came up with the idea, but when put into context kind of silly. I mean wall of stone is an old D&D spell and just one spell. Yet these guys need to make 16 ghouls, then dispel, the stone em. That is 48 spells to mimic one old time core spell.

Needing to use text chat instead of voice just because the margin of error is so close that minor latency gets you killed. Seriously ***. Its a good basic design idea just make it actually usable.

These are all nice refinements and good suggesstions.

But really what this tactics thrread shows to me is Abbot has serious usability issues. And really it will come down to luck no matter what.

I wish you luck in maximizing your luck. You will need it.

Laith
09-04-2008, 11:45 AM
Yes, but look at the Restles Isle history...they put the check on the "soulstone in invenotry" after they discovered people were using said exploit.

That hasn't happened yet with the Abbot, and I find it very hard to believe that: 1) They did not think that someone might use the same exploit that was used to death in a quest a few months prior; and 2) That if indeed they overlooked that fact and realized later that people were doing the same thing again, they did not, in many of their patches, place the SAME mechanism used on the guides to prevent people from taking stones with them when they are teleported.

A lot of exploits are being fixed as soon as possible after being discovered, so one can only surmise that if the devs don't come out here and say "Stop using the soulstone tactic because it is an exploit" AND the "issue" isn't "fixed", then it is OK to keep using the tactic!your conclusions rely heavily on turbine being incapable of making the same mistake twice.

it should be obvious that the quest intends to send 2 (and only 2) people to the puzzle rooms. If it intended to send more than 2 people, soulstones and other party members would be divided amongst the rooms as well.

You found a loophole, and now you're trying to justify it. It's not even a new loophole, it's one that's been deemed an exploit and closed in the past.

Borror0
09-04-2008, 12:14 PM
That hasn't happened yet with the Abbot!

Don't you think it's more because, like most players, the Dev have given up on the Abbot and won't touch it again?

asdfss
09-04-2008, 01:39 PM
Don't you think it's more because, like most players, the Dev have given up on the Abbot and won't touch it again?

If that is true why not just make it have a much lower margin of error?

It is not like the rewards would throw the loot in the game out of whack now.

I suppose the answer is because they don't want to test it. But then again if they just lower the asteroid number and changed some timing etc on a few other things and never tested it, would it really be that big of a deal when put into the current context?

Angelus_dead
09-04-2008, 01:46 PM
I suppose the answer is because they don't want to test it. But then again if they just lower the asteroid number and changed some timing etc on a few other things and never tested it, would it really be that big of a deal when put into the current context?
You are correct: changing the Abbot raid in a variety of minor ways would not be a big deal. Even if it accidentally turns out to be too easy, a quick look at the Reaver raid (too easy) and Abbot raid (too hard) will remind us which of those two errors is less harmful for gameplay.

That's why they really should get moving and do something about it. And thus, their continued refusal to fix the single most-localized major game flaw is ever more baffling.

Razvan
09-04-2008, 02:41 PM
You found a loophole, and now you're trying to justify it. It's not even a new loophole, it's one that's been deemed an exploit and closed in the past.


I hate it when people can't talk about something without direct attacks towards a person... Grow up and stop accusing players you don't even know of things you THINK you understand!

As for my post, they reflect my opinions and observations, and derived from them conclusions (logical to me and others, illogical to some)...I did not attack you or any of your friends, so there is no need to do that to me!

asdfss
09-04-2008, 03:05 PM
You are correct: changing the Abbot raid in a variety of minor ways would not be a big deal. Even if it accidentally turns out to be too easy, a quick look at the Reaver raid (too easy) and Abbot raid (too hard) will remind us which of those two errors is less harmful for gameplay.

That's why they really should get moving and do something about it. And thus, their continued refusal to fix the single most-localized major game flaw is ever more baffling.

Baffling is right. I think they like it. I think the problem is that they care. Not that they don't care.

rimble
09-04-2008, 03:22 PM
As far as I can tell the only way to get any real consistency is to do "unusual" things most of which are a little silly. Creative and props to the the people who came up with the idea, but when put into context kind of silly. I mean wall of stone is an old D&D spell and just one spell. Yet these guys need to make 16 ghouls, then dispel, the stone em. That is 48 spells to mimic one old time core spell.

I agree. I started giggling reading the tactics listed above. They sounded like insane rambling. Wicked kudos for figuring things out and working through crazy options, but I can't help but wonder what the devs REALLY wanted you to do...?

asdfss
09-04-2008, 03:25 PM
I agree. I started giggling reading the tactics listed above. They sounded like insane rambling. Wicked kudos for figuring things out and working through crazy options, but I can't help but wonder what the devs REALLY wanted you to do...?

Yeah I mean its like they need to be some kind of army of insane magical sculptors to finish the raid.

I can just imagine them cackling manically as they do it and someone watching would say "Er why not build a real wall?" and then they reply "But that would be too easy! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

SkyCry
09-05-2008, 05:53 AM
So players are essentially creating a new spell "Wall of undead statues".

Maybe the devs should throw you a bone and actually implement wall of force or wall of ice or wall of stone.

And Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Fly.htm) spell is level 3 arcane spell, so a level 5 wizard should be able to cast it. Yet the list of things that would be broken with it in the game would be just too freaking long.

Some spells are not in the game for a reason. Some quests are just not designed with those spells in mind.

asdfss
09-05-2008, 09:55 AM
And Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Fly.htm) spell is level 3 arcane spell, so a level 5 wizard should be able to cast it. Yet the list of things that would be broken with it in the game would be just too freaking long.

Some spells are not in the game for a reason. Some quests are just not designed with those spells in mind.

Well from a functional perspective wall of stone is in the game! Haha jokes on the devs. It just has a REALLY long cast time and takes a ton of sp.

The implementation is even really good because different part of the wall are destructable.

Man players rock, they can implement spells without even altering the code. That takes talent.

SkyCry
09-06-2008, 06:49 PM
Well from a functional perspective wall of stone is in the game! Haha jokes on the devs. It just has a REALLY long cast time and takes a ton of sp.

The implementation is even really good because different part of the wall are destructable.

Man players rock, they can implement spells without even altering the code. That takes talent.

I might agree with what you're saying, however you completely missed the whole point.

So the questions are still there...
Is it OK to use these tactics?
Will these tactics be prevented by future fixes?
Will the fact that people have to resort to these tactics be taken into consideration?

Jondallar
09-07-2008, 11:10 AM
I might agree with what you're saying, however you completely missed the whole point.

So the questions are still there...
Is it OK to use these tactics?
Will these tactics be prevented by future fixes?
Will the fact that people have to resort to these tactics be taken into consideration?


When asked in an interview (DDOCAST i believe) about the Abbot raid Eladrin and the other devs said they were pleased with it and that several guilds were beating it regularly (before mod 7). They simply are too near sighted to make this raid work. Many many people have given suggestions as to how to make it more viable as obviously intended to be run. Dev's ignor this and persist in the delussion that everything is ok. The OP has been running this raid with a near static group of good players for months now and even with some of the tactics presented here (i havent run with them so cant say exactly what happens behind those doors) they have not achieved victory yet.

asdfss
09-07-2008, 01:56 PM
I might agree with what you're saying, however you completely missed the whole point.

So the questions are still there...
Is it OK to use these tactics?
Will these tactics be prevented by future fixes?
Will the fact that people have to resort to these tactics be taken into consideration?



Just because I ignored the point does not mean I missed ;)

However I will say that I doubt those questions matter much. Not that they aren't good questions to ask.

SkyCry
09-07-2008, 04:17 PM
Let me give an example:

A halfling sorcerer dies in battle with Abbot, but human cleric doesn't cast raise dead on him. Instead warforged barbarian picks up sorcerer's corpse as if it was a feather and swiftly hangs him at his backpack. Abbot, while amused at the fact, decides these guys are weirdos and cleric was simply out of casts to raise dead... the barbarian was probably properly trained by cleric that raising dead (later) with corpse is much easier than without. So after Abbot gets beaten up and decides it's time to rest, he teleports 6 adventurers away, trying to separate them into groups, hoping they'll be easier to deal with in small numbers. What Abbot didn't realize is he teleported that barbarian not only with huge axe, but also with that sorcerer's corpse, who is afterwards ressurrected by a magic bracer crafted in Shroud.

I mean, it's quite believable... it's not like adventurers aren't allowed to outsmart raid bosses or universe will collapse, right? And he won't be around to learn from his mistakes after he's defeated...

So is this really unintentional? Or, more importantly, will it be considered unintentional (and hence fixed) in the future?

I think it *does* matter.

Healemup
09-08-2008, 11:35 AM
As AD said, there are no reason you'd pick up a Soul Stone in the Abbot, but for that reason.

That is only because you know the future actions in the Raid. It would be perfectly possible for a first timer to pick it up without knowing what is to come.

With that said, I agree.

Turial
09-08-2008, 11:53 AM
Yes, but look at the Restles Isle history...they put the check on the "soulstone in invenotry" after they discovered people were using said exploit.

That hasn't happened yet with the Abbot, and I find it very hard to believe that: 1) They did not think that someone might use the same exploit that was used to death in a quest a few months prior; and 2) That if indeed they overlooked that fact and realized later that people were doing the same thing again, they did not, in many of their patches, place the SAME mechanism used on the guides to prevent people from taking stones with them when they are teleported.

A lot of exploits are being fixed as soon as possible after being discovered, so one can only surmise that if the devs don't come out here and say "Stop using the soulstone tactic because it is an exploit" AND the "issue" isn't "fixed", then it is OK to keep using the tactic!

Devs rarely come out and say something is an "exploit" unless a fix has occured to stop it and even then they normally don't talk about it.

Angelus_dead
09-08-2008, 11:55 AM
That is only because you know the future actions in the Raid. It would be perfectly possible for a first timer to pick it up without knowing what is to come.
No, it would not be. Unless you'd been in there before, there's no reason to think you'd ever be able to move the soulstone someplace the ghost player couldn't run on his own. It is one room; carrying the Soulstone would not accomplish anything.

Turial
09-08-2008, 11:56 AM
That is only because you know the future actions in the Raid. It would be perfectly possible for a first timer to pick it up without knowing what is to come.

With that said, I agree.

So you are saying it is typically someones first response to pick up a soul stone when some one else dies?

The only time I have seen this happen is in the titan raid when someone doesn't know that picking up a soul stone in the halls will cause you to get nuked. Most of the rest of the game the only time I pick up someone elses stone is if there is no way to res them without taking their stone closer to a res shrine.

SkyCry
09-08-2008, 12:24 PM
So you are saying it is typically someones first response to pick up a soul stone when some one else dies?

The only time I have seen this happen is in the titan raid when someone doesn't know that picking up a soul stone in the halls will cause you to get nuked. Most of the rest of the game the only time I pick up someone elses stone is if there is no way to res them without taking their stone closer to a res shrine.

That is your personal way of doing things. There are countless other players out there with their own tactics and just basically things they do whether randomly or methodically. It makes perfect sense to take fallen teammate's soul stone as soon as possible to make sure the dead won't get separated from alive in the heat of battle. Also just because Abbot is seemingly one small room doesn't mean it won't change. And adventurers predicting the unpredictable are the ones that stay alive!

Even people who have experienced being teleported by Abbot to another room will still have a good reason to bring dead with them. First of all, they might not have seen all the puzzles and can assume there might be a shrine elsewhere. Secondly, there wasn't any confirmation that bringing dead up outside the starting circular platform is an exploit in any way. An experienced player believing that Abbot is trying to separate the party would not be unreasonable... actually the opposite! Abbot IS trying to separate adventurers, and adventurers are there to fight him, so I don't see any reason why adventurers wouldn't do everything in their power to spoil his plans and not get separated. Why not just enter the raid and do /death when you're at it, if you're trying to be helpful to Abbot or play by his rules? If everything is to go by his plan, he wouldn't be defeated in the end...

Strahd-BR
09-08-2008, 03:11 PM
One thing is clear to me. The raid is broken and no one cares about it.

If i were the DEV responsable for the Abbot design i would fight to see it accessible for everyone in DDO.

The Mantle dispel method does not work as posted and there are no official answers about that.

As a bussiness man myself i see things with a different perspective:

If they donĀ“t fix the raid and people keep trying all the time they can focus on other projects and just say "The Abbot raid is doable, go try it" when someone ask for more high level content.

Whoever was around the Titan release understand my point.

Someone in Turbine must thing it is funny to see months and months of failure, time and resource spent in something broken as this raid.

Turial
09-08-2008, 03:26 PM
....Secondly, there wasn't any confirmation that bringing dead up outside the starting circular platform is an exploit in any way. ...

There rarely is any confirmation on exploits.

And while it may make sense to do something it doesn't mean it happens with any great frequency. As I said I have yet to meet anyone who picks up the soul stones of others unless there is no other way to res them other then by taking them to a shrine.

Do you pick up the soul stones of your fallen friends immediately and every single time upon their deaths in normal quests?

Crarites
09-08-2008, 03:29 PM
Do you pick up the soul stones of your fallen friends immediately and every single time upon their deaths in normal quests?

Yes, if for nothing else but the screen shot.

SkyCry
09-08-2008, 05:40 PM
Do you pick up the soul stones of your fallen friends immediately and every single time upon their deaths in normal quests?

Yes I do. But it's not a question of you or me or the guy next door in funny hat. *Someone* does and that means it can't be marked as an attempt to exploit. But forget that already, that's not the point. What I'm trying to show is even if people do it on purpose - to transport dead people with them to puzzles - there's no indication that such behavior is unintended. *That's* what I'm trying to find out: is it really wrong or is it acceptable?