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Leyoni
07-24-2008, 02:20 PM
My kids like warforged and are playing a barbarian and a fighter. AC seems to be a problem as they advance in level. Both are L6 right now, so rebuilding isn't a big issue.

My question is, what should I have done in helping them with their builds to get the most useful AC. Both just like to swing weapons and kill stuff and there is nothing about how they play to make taking things like trip, cleave, etc. worth while. So, they have feats and enhancements available to put towards DR and AC.

What would you all suggest?

FWIW, I'm running a WF wizard to be their personal Maytag repairman. But, sometimes, I need to focus on keeping myself alive and that is when it starts getting scary.

Thx.

Arianrhod
07-24-2008, 02:32 PM
The warforged fighter should have a few options for AC - fighter armor mastery and combat expertise seem to be pretty standard for character aiming for high AC. Dodge (and any items that give dodge bonuses), can also help. Other than that, it's pretty much about gear - start with the highest + docent you can equip, add the highest protection item you can use, the highest + tower shield, and a supply of barkskin potions. Once you get all that, you can start working on getting rare stuff like Chaosgarde (from Xorian Cipher) and Chattering Ring (from some raid, I think....more experienced players in the high end stuff will have to help out with the gear suggestions).

The barbarian, on the other hand, might be better off focusing on damage output and damage reduction rather than AC. Warforged barbarians get good enhancements for two-handed weapon damage, and barbarians in general get some enhancements that might be worth looking into for damage reduction (just be sure to pick one or the other - barbarian or warforged, not put enhancements into both, since they don't stack).

Good luck, and try getting the barbarian to hold back a couple seconds and attack after the fighter has aggro - that's what the wizard told my barb to do in our trio, and he says it's really helped cut down on the amount of power he has to spend on repairs :D

Lonewolfe
07-24-2008, 02:34 PM
I'm no expert on wf either, but the ftr could just take dmg reduction several times since ftr's get lots of feats. However, that isn't a long term fix. Adamantine body, dodge, combant expertise ....these would all help. Also, tower shields in their hands and the highest docents they can get their hands on. Potions of barkskin and Shield of faith by the bucket loads wouldn't hurt. Since you are looking over them, constant blur and displacement would help. There are alot of more knowledgable guys on this forum to help, but those are a few suggestions since I doubt they are hard core players anway.

Ghoste
07-24-2008, 05:05 PM
It's a shame the op seems to think they can't be taught to make use of strategy and tactics. Unless you have a plan to get them all the best raid and named loot, it's very doubtful they'll ever attain a signifigant armor class. If the little ones are very insisting on only an aggressive approach to combat, step back a little and insist they need to buy potions to repair themselves between fights. At the very least it will get them thinking about their own health, which seems crystal clear to me to be the main problem.

DR feats will have absolutely no benefit once stoneskin comes into the picture.

Leyoni
07-24-2008, 06:03 PM
It isn't that they can't be taught, it is that they aren't interested in learning. And, it isn't worth the fight to teach them. It is something that they'll come to if/when they are ready.

They do take care of their own healing to some degree.

Thanks for the point about stoneskin and DR. There is a bit of work to go before that kicks in.

Hadn't thought about combat expertise. I'll have to take a look at INT for both of them. I think we pored everything into CON, DEX, and STR but I could be wrong.

I do know that DR doesn't stack, that only the best DR applies based on the type of damage.

Thx

Arianrhod
07-24-2008, 06:24 PM
It's a shame the op seems to think they can't be taught to make use of strategy and tactics. Unless you have a plan to get them all the best raid and named loot, it's very doubtful they'll ever attain a signifigant armor class. If the little ones are very insisting on only an aggressive approach to combat, step back a little and insist they need to buy potions to repair themselves between fights. At the very least it will get them thinking about their own health, which seems crystal clear to me to be the main problem.

DR feats will have absolutely no benefit once stoneskin comes into the picture.

True they may never reach "significant" armor class, but if they're just playing for fun and not interested in putting the time into tactics training, they probably aren't planning to do many (if any) quests on elite, let alone raids, so getting them (or at least the fighter) up to an eventual AC in the 40s or 50s should be adequate to at least make some difference most of the time. Investing in DR for the barb might be a little "iffy" if he's not the type to use the DR boost effectively. If that's the case, focusing on pure damage output for him and trying to hold him back till the fighter gets a swing or two in is probably the way to go.

Another thing to keep in mind is that as they get above 6th level more and more of the damage they'll be facing is the type that AC doesn't help against anyway (spells & traps, for instance). If the wizard can fit it in, a rogue level (and a lot of investment in trapsmithing) can prevent some of that damage. Other than that, keeping a good supply of wands on hand and making sure the dynamic duo has all the buffs they need (elemental resists, for instance) may be your best bet.

Leyoni
07-25-2008, 01:04 AM
Sorry for being less than clear. The kids are only playing 1 at a time as I have only 2 machines and 2 accounts. We are duoing most dungeons (we only once ran a dungeon with a group -- having first posted that we had a kid and that any who joined had to be willing to accept the risks). I am seriously considering investing in a 3d machine and 3d account so that we can all group together. If that happens I will probably rebuild both of them and we'll start over together.

I do have two wizards helping them, 1 is a wiz/rog multiclass. I pull him out for dungeons that I know have traps.

The observation about doing things on elite is only partly true. What is more true is that they are not doing much above their character level and high end content is a very long way off. But, and this is why I asked the original question, even at mid levels AC is starting to be a problem for them as WF (where it isn't for my fleshy characters).

Again, thx for the advice.

valczir
07-25-2008, 02:57 PM
As others have said, Mithril or Adamantine Body can help a great deal (probably Mithril for the barb, Adamantine for the fighter), at low levels. You're taking a feat instead of wearing a piece of armor. Other than that, warforged are very similar to any other race.

I don't know what else to say about the AC. Keep looking for good docents, just like you'd look for good armor. If you can convince your kids to learn how to tumble, start looking for the Docent of Defiance at level 10 (in a chest in one of the necropolis quests; it gives a ~5% chance to grant DR 20/- and cripple the wearer when hit - hence the tumbling skills). *shrug* Also, Power Attack enhancements can be a great boon to anyone wielding a two handed weapon, getting the total bonus to +16 damage, -8 to hit. Not great against bosses ('cause they usually have a high enough AC that the damage boost isn't worth the attack detriment), but it'll clear out low AC enemies like crazy.

Forceonature
07-25-2008, 03:04 PM
I have a WF tank and a WF barb. Unless you're going to go after the loot to boost your AC (chaosgardes, shroud insight AC weapon), I would stick with a Barb or THF Fighter. My personal recommendation is to use trip with a barb. If you can teach them how to trip something when they get to it, it'll help prevent getting hit as often.

Ghoste
07-25-2008, 04:49 PM
True they may never reach "significant" armor class, but if they're just playing for fun and not interested in putting the time into tactics training...

You say that like tactics and training aren't fun.

Arianrhod
07-26-2008, 06:36 AM
You say that like tactics and training aren't fun.

Hehe, of course they're fun, it's part of what makes DDO the best MMO out there :D

However, as the OP pointed out, it doesn't seem the boys are in a place right now where they have the patience to be interested in that sort of thing ;)

Ghoste
07-26-2008, 06:39 AM
Hehe, of course they're fun, it's part of what makes DDO the best MMO out there :D

However, as the OP pointed out, it doesn't seem the boys are in a place right now where they have the patience to be interested in that sort of thing ;)
Yup. And like I said, it's a shame.

Borror0
07-26-2008, 07:15 AM
However, as the OP pointed out, it doesn't seem the boys are in a place right now where they have the patience to be interested in that sort of thing ;)

Tell them that if they don't learn, they die. ;)

Hvymetal
07-26-2008, 07:19 AM
Tell them that if they don't learn, they die. ;)

QFT, if most people were truely honest you would find that a majority of us players learned that way;)

Borror0
07-26-2008, 07:23 AM
QFT, if most people were truely honest you would find that a majority of us players learned that way;)

Heck, as their father, send a tell to the cleric/wizard to not heal them unless they play properly and not feel bad if they die. They will have to find a way to stay alive.

BlackSteel
07-26-2008, 09:52 PM
unless you're a high dex build, wf will have a much harder time keeping up their AC than other races. Addy is good for the lower levels, and is allright with the fighter enhancements. But even with heavy AP investment and a daggertooth belt, u're capping your dex at +6, for 8+5+6 = 19. Mithral is a better choice for good dex, 5+5+10 = 20. Mithral fluidity feats can take the place of equipment or AP tho, much easier to fit in on a fighter. A TWF Fighter/ranger multiclass would make good use of this (but then no shield). No need for armor bracers is nice for squishies, doesnt matter for either of your sons. Like others have mentioned, everything else will be equipment dependent. Just to compare a MFP dwarf can get the armor enhancements much cheaper for a max up to 8 +5+11 = 24 (not likely, 20/21 more likely number due to needing such a high dex)

Honestly I didnt think the numbers would be that close ~2 points unless you're a dex monkey. But this with heavy AP and equip investment.