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Beherit_Baphomar
07-22-2008, 11:26 AM
Hello,

I have a 14 ranger at the mo and two things are on my mind. I need some advice before I do this.

Im thinking of taking the last two levels as Fighter.
Two reasons, one his HP's are kinda low and I think fighter levels would give me summore. And the other
reason is if I get another feat with two levels then I may take CE, Id like to get his AC to something
respectable.

So, basically if I took two levels of fighter will I get another feat? Would it be worth taking CE? How many
more HP's over Ranger will I get? Will I miss anything at levels 15/16 for ranger?

Is it a good idea?

DaveyCrockett
07-22-2008, 11:29 AM
Considered monk for the next 2 levels?
2 feats (toughness, CE)
WIS Bonus to AC
WIS Enhancement (+1)
Way of the Patient Turtoise (5 HP)

Guildmaster_Kadish
07-22-2008, 11:33 AM
So, basically if I took two levels of fighter will I get another feat?

You will recieve 2 bonus feats at fighter 1 and fighter 2.


Would it be worth taking CE?

That depends on what your AC would get up to.


How many more HP's over Ranger will I get?

2 per level.


Will I miss anything at levels 15/16 for ranger?

Yes, 15 ranger gives you another FE, and at 16 ranger your Ram's Might gives one more damage per swing extra. At level 17, Rangers get Hiding in Plain Sight, but we aren't sure how that will be implemented. So you'd miss that at the level cap raise, but you could still get it at level 19. Level 20 Rangers get their last favored enemy, so you'd miss that through any splashing.


Is it a good idea?

That all depends on what your preference is. Another option would be taking only 1 fighter level, you'd get 1 bonus feat, 2 more hp, and your FE from level 15.

Guildmaster_Kadish
07-22-2008, 11:35 AM
Considered monk for the next 2 levels?
2 feats (toughness, CE)
WIS Bonus to AC
WIS Enhancement (+1)
Way of the Patient Turtoise (5 HP)

Difference between monk and fighter will be that 2 fighter gets a +1 str enhancement and Fighter Toughness 1 for 5 HP, and the fighter doesn't help your AC. Almost always, the monk will be a better splash for a dex ranger because of the extra AC. If you do splash, I'd suggest monk over fighter.

DaveyCrockett
07-22-2008, 11:35 AM
2 per level. If you really wanted more, you could take toughness as one of your two bonus feats for an additional 18.

No he couldn't. Toughness is not a fighter class feat.

Guildmaster_Kadish
07-22-2008, 11:37 AM
No he couldn't. Toughness is not a fighter class feat.

I stand corrected.

Gol
07-22-2008, 11:37 AM
What are your current feats/stats? What race is your character?

Guildmaster_Kadish
07-22-2008, 11:38 AM
No he couldn't. Toughness is not a fighter class feat.

However, if you really wanted to, you could respec another feat like an improved crit or weapon finesse to toughness, then take the feat you originally had as a fighter bonus feat.

Aspenor
07-22-2008, 11:38 AM
Delete and Reroll Bee. IRL. It's the only way.

DaveyCrockett
07-22-2008, 11:39 AM
However, if you really wanted to, you could respec another feat like an improved crit or weapon finesse to toughness, then take the feat you originally had as a fighter bonus feat.

OR.. to keep it simple... Splash MONK! :D

Beherit_Baphomar
07-22-2008, 11:40 AM
Considered monk for the next 2 levels?
2 feats (toughness, CE)
WIS Bonus to AC
WIS Enhancement (+1)
Way of the Patient Turtoise (5 HP)

Mmm...ty D'f'C. Sounds like this is exactly what I was looking for...my lil guy is well-rounded and has pretty good WIS (14 w/out items if I remember correctly.)

Monk it is!

Not really worried about another FE, HIP's even if put in game wont be used...we see how rogues get to sneak and scout already.

Yupyup, now to level him...

Ty guys.

Beherit_Baphomar
07-22-2008, 11:42 AM
What are your current feats/stats? What race is your character?

He's Elf.

Lemme see, stats are

STR 20
DEX 32
CON 16 :/
WIS 20
CHA 20

I believe thats right...+1 tomes used all round, sept CON and DEX.
I have a +2 DEX tome, skurred to use it until I figure out what way to go.

Those stats are with items.

Beherit_Baphomar
07-22-2008, 11:44 AM
Delete and Reroll Bee. IRL. It's the only way.

Sometimes I wish I could Asp....

Sometimes I wish I could......

<violin music>

Sue_Dark
07-22-2008, 11:45 AM
Difference between monk and fighter will be that 2 fighter gets a +1 str enhancement and Fighter Toughness 1 for 5 HP, and the fighter doesn't help your AC. Almost always, the monk will be a better splash for a dex ranger because of the extra AC. If you do splash, I'd suggest monk over fighter.

No where does he say he's a dex build, nor has he divulged his Alignment. Without these bits of information, looking at my 14rgr/2ftr and my 16rgr, I'd say the difference is minimal. You CAN take toughness as your CHARACTER level 15 feat, tho it is not a class feat for Fighters. So two levels of fighter could gain the OP a grand total of 15hp/lvl+3hp for L1+ftr toughness(5)+2hp/lvl over ranger or 27 hp. However, you could also take that toughness feat on a pure ranger and you would lose 9 of those HP for the lack of ftr toughness and the fighter levels.

OP - Is your ranger a dex or str based character. When you reference low HP/AC, what do *YOU* consider low.

EDIT - questions answered 2 posts ago... oh well. I suppose he's LG/LN then..

Guildmaster_Kadish
07-22-2008, 11:45 AM
OR.. to keep it simple... Splash MONK! :D

Oh, I completely agree. Just sayin' that if you really wanted 1 strength from 2 fighter or something, you could get toughness, if in a round about manner.

Guildmaster_Kadish
07-22-2008, 11:47 AM
No where does he say he's a dex build, nor has he divulged his Alignment. Without these bits of information, looking at my 14rgr/2ftr and my 16rgr, I'd say the difference is minimal. You CAN take toughness as your CHARACTER level 15 feat, tho it is not a class feat for Fighters. So two levels of fighter could gain the OP a grand total of 15hp/lvl+3hp for L1+ftr toughness(5)+2hp/lvl over ranger or 27 hp. However, you could also take that toughness feat on a pure ranger and you would lose 9 of those HP for the lack of ftr toughness and the fighter levels.

OP - Is your ranger a dex or str based character. When you reference low HP/AC, what do *YOU* consider low.


He's Elf.

Lemme see, stats are

STR 20
DEX 32
CON 16 :/
WIS 20
CHA 20

I believe thats right...+1 tomes used all round, sept CON and DEX.
I have a +2 DEX tome, skurred to use it until I figure out what way to go.

Those stats are with items.

Good catch on the alignment--must be lawful to do monk.

Beherit_Baphomar
07-22-2008, 11:48 AM
OP - Is your ranger a dex or str based character. When you reference low HP/AC, what do *YOU* consider low.

He's a DEX fighter.

His AC is, without all the silly pots and whatnot, simply self-buffed, Armour bracers is 43. TWF, obviously.

Now, thing is Im not worried about putting in some time to boost this (Titan raiding, Icy Rainment farming etc.) but only
if his AC will matter.

What do I think will matter? 50's?

The AC is kinda an afterthought. A little buffer for the real problem, which is low HP's.
If I go straight ranger I'll be sitting at 260 HP's.

Beherit_Baphomar
07-22-2008, 11:50 AM
Good catch on the alignment--must be lawful to do monk.

*****.

gamblerjoe
07-22-2008, 11:53 AM
Ranger L15 (and eventually L20) gives u another favored enemy, as well as additional damage to all of your favored enemies. you will also get another spell slot (at L16 its 3/3/2/2) and sp. Also, you will be able to keep your skills remaxed since rangers get 4 more skill points than fighters.

From where you are atm, 2 more levels of ranger would increase your base saves by 1/1/1. 2 levels of fighter will increase your base saves by 1/0/0.

Fighters recieve a feat at L1, L2, and then every even level. This means that a 14rgr/2ftr has 2 fighter feats.

The difference in HP is going to be 2 per lvl (ie, the difference between 8 and 10.) If you have the toughness feat, you will be able to take 'fighter toughness 1' which is 5 more HP for just 1 AP. This adds up to a total of 9 extra HP. The toughness feat itself will give u 18 more HP, and if you couldnt afford it without the fighter levels, then that brings the difference up to 27 HP.

Im not sure if there are any important ranger enhancements that require 15 or 16 ranger levels. You can check by looking at the enhancement tab on your character sheet and checking the box that sais 'show unavailable.' A L2 fighter can take 'fighter haste boost 1' and 'fighter strength 1' which are very helpfull as well.

Those are all of the high points i can think of. Its not an easy decision. Its the kind of thing where u wish u could play them both. Good luck with whatever you decide. I hope this info help you decide which is more fun for you.

Sue_Dark
07-22-2008, 11:57 AM
IMO - The real key to tempest is not HP or AC so much as it IS moving. You take Spring attack so that you can attack while moving without penalty. Yes, the animation is jacked. However, My normal tactic for tighting a mob i know will hit 45AC (self, dual wield, dex build) is to jump over their heads when they start to agro on me. This said, I can fight a named orthon and not get hit once (caveat- if i cant see him i WILL get hit... darned CC, but I wouldnt wanna go without it, unless i had no choice)

Granted not everyone is a twitch player (I cannot play a monk to save my arse, but ranger for some reason is different) but you can easily get by with sub-50 AC. Please note also that I am working on upping mine, just cause I want to. I want certain raid loot items, I want certain end chest items, cause I want em.... NOT cause I need em.



So back on topic... The hitpoint gain from a fighter level or two is negligable at best. Dropping your CLVL 15 feat into toughness, for pretty much any splash will make a bigger difference. Taking one FTR level at 16 would allow you CE(IIRC) on top of a toughies, but with not ftr enhancement until level cap raise at best.




So did you go monk or still deciding?

Gol
07-22-2008, 12:07 PM
He's Elf.

Lemme see, stats are

STR 20
DEX 32
CON 16 :/
WIS 20
CHA 20

I believe thats right...+1 tomes used all round, sept CON and DEX.
I have a +2 DEX tome, skurred to use it until I figure out what way to go.

Those stats are with items.

Yep, Monk time indeed.

Sue_Dark
07-22-2008, 12:08 PM
Ranger L15 (and eventually L20) gives u another favored enemy, as well as additional damage to all of your favored enemies. you will also get another spell slot (at L16 its 3/3/2/2) and sp. Also, you will be able to keep your skills remaxed since rangers get 4 more skill points than fighters.

From where you are atm, 2 more levels of ranger would increase your base saves by 1/1/1. 2 levels of fighter will increase your base saves by 1/0/0.

Fighters recieve a feat at L1, L2, and then every even level. This means that a 14rgr/2ftr has 2 fighter feats.

The difference in HP is going to be 2 per lvl (ie, the difference between 8 and 10.) If you have the toughness feat, you will be able to take 'fighter toughness 1' which is 5 more HP for just 1 AP. This adds up to a total of 9 extra HP. The toughness feat itself will give u 18 more HP, and if you couldnt afford it without the fighter levels, then that brings the difference up to 27 HP.

Im not sure if there are any important ranger enhancements that require 15 or 16 ranger levels. You can check by looking at the enhancement tab on your character sheet and checking the box that sais 'show unavailable.' A L2 fighter can take 'fighter haste boost 1' and 'fighter strength 1' which are very helpfull as well.

Those are all of the high points i can think of. Its not an easy decision. Its the kind of thing where u wish u could play them both. Good luck with whatever you decide. I hope this info help you decide which is more fun for you.

As far as enhancements go, the good ones cut off somewhere around L12. (I dont recall offhand and cant check @work) Judging by the stats he's posted, I'd assume this ranger has maxed his dex enhancements. Being dex based elf, I would expect that he prolly has burned some points on elves weapons spec. Likely he's spent some in SP as well. Those and FE enhancements are the most important (OPINION). Somewhere around L12 you could actually Stop going ranger and choose another class. Altho to max out spells, you would want to go to at least L14 in class. That get you 1 L4 spell.

As the OP has already stated that he was L14, it comes down to deciding if he wants the extra skill points, spell points, spell, FE stuff, and future stuff as may come. OR does he want a few more HP, 2 more feats (which would allow him to re-arrange his early feats somewhat.) for a total of 3 feats for the last two levels.

I like both the pure and the 14/2 tho my 14/2 is a str based build.

disclaimer - All information provided is highly opinionated and in no way reflects or is intended to impose in any way upon the freedom of others to have their own opinions. If my information is helpful, use it as you see fit. If my information is not helpful, disregard it as you see fit. If my information is blatantly wrong, pm me and point it out, so that I might learn something.

Beherit_Baphomar
07-22-2008, 12:08 PM
So did you go monk or still deciding?

Cant go monk. CG alignment.

And as for play style, yeah Ive had to switch it up a lil...I play mostly my barb, my sorc and my cleric.

When melee'ing I tend to be the guy in the middle swinging my greataxe. With my lil ranger fella Ive found waiting
on the others to start the fight is a better idea. Though sometimes I forget this.

And is it me or does stat damage create some pretty nasty aggro? Im not doing uber damage, but mobs seem to hate on me.

Sue_Dark
07-22-2008, 12:08 PM
*****.

hehehe this makes me think that someone isnt of Lawful blood :)

gamblerjoe
07-22-2008, 12:11 PM
No he couldn't. Toughness is not a fighter class feat.

o ya, i forgot about that. What u would need to do is take toughness as your L15 feat, and take whatever feat u were going to take at 15 as your fighter feat (if u can.) If u cant, then u will have to talk to Fred and flip some stuff around.

also, i fully support the monk idea. get your 2 feats, your 5 hp for 1 ap, +1 wis, a bump to ac u dont have to burn a feat and attck bonus to get, and one of my favorite perks, u can dual weild vorpal kamas in wind stance (the +1 to hit is nice against elite orthons.)

Also, you can take toughness as a monk feat. If you still decide to take combat expertise, u will be able to get your ac up that much higher. I dont think u can get that one as a monk feat, so you will have to apply the same principle above. There is a better chance you will have to talk to Fred for CE, but that shouldnt be a big deal.

Sue_Dark
07-22-2008, 12:11 PM
Cant go monk. CG alignment.

And as for play style, yeah Ive had to switch it up a lil...I play mostly my barb, my sorc and my cleric.

When melee'ing I tend to be the guy in the middle swinging my greataxe. With my lil ranger fella Ive found waiting
on the others to start the fight is a better idea. Though sometimes I forget this.

And is it me or does stat damage create some pretty nasty aggro? Im not doing uber damage, but mobs seem to hate on me.

Yeah, stat damage does seem to create more agro lately than it a year ago. Seems logical tho, to me. If I take stat damage, I try to find it's source and stop it. Why wouldnt they?

Yaga_Nub
07-22-2008, 12:50 PM
No he couldn't. Toughness is not a fighter class feat.

bah never mind.

maddmatt70
07-22-2008, 02:19 PM
I think to give you a little perspective/wisdom I will share the current situation of my ranger. She is a strength based halfling who puts out alot of dps. Her ac is not high enough to be relevant. I went with 4 fighter levels and 1 barbarian level in part for the hit points and the ability to rage at end bosses which in conjunction with madstone gives her quite a bit of hit points. She also kills things really fast so fast that she doesn't take alot of damage. I have not had any issues with her from a defensive perspective on anything until Vod. Vod has become an issue for her because she always gets aggro and can't rage or use madstone boots hence her hit points are lower (her base is 375 unraged). Sometimes clerics have trouble keeping her up. My solution to all this or hoped for solution is to get the tharne's bracer which would reduce the threat by 20&#37; and if I am running with other dps characters hopefully I would not get aggro all the time. I don't know if the tharne's bracers would solve your problem or even if it will certainly solve mine, but here is to hoping it will.

Sue_Dark
07-22-2008, 04:05 PM
I think to give you a little perspective/wisdom I will share the current situation of my ranger. She is a strength based halfling who puts out alot of dps. Her ac is not high enough to be relevant. I went with 4 fighter levels and 1 barbarian level in part for the hit points and the ability to rage at end bosses which in conjunction with madstone gives her quite a bit of hit points. She also kills things really fast so fast that she doesn't take alot of damage. I have not had any issues with her from a defensive perspective on anything until Vod. Vod has become an issue for her because she always gets aggro and can't rage or use madstone boots hence her hit points are lower (her base is 375 unraged). Sometimes clerics have trouble keeping her up. My solution to all this or hoped for solution is to get the tharne's bracer which would reduce the threat by 20% and if I am running with other dps characters hopefully I would not get aggro all the time. I don't know if the tharne's bracers would solve your problem or even if it will certainly solve mine, but here is to hoping it will.

Hehehe... Unruhwaage, my Str/Tempest has 389 regular HP. Have 2 fighter levels and 14 ranger levels. Rage/madstone would just raise that. Move more and I'm bettin you wont have as much trouble with agro. Also, let the "pure" dps guys go in first. Unless I am playing the tank role, I always let the "dps machine" start the fight and then i clean up the mess.

maddmatt70
07-22-2008, 04:19 PM
Hehehe... Unruhwaage, my Str/Tempest has 389 regular HP. Have 2 fighter levels and 14 ranger levels. Rage/madstone would just raise that. Move more and I'm bettin you wont have as much trouble with agro. Also, let the "pure" dps guys go in first. Unless I am playing the tank role, I always let the "dps machine" start the fight and then i clean up the mess.

I always end up pulling aggro from those guys. Well it depends if they are high dps builds themselves sometimes, but I ran with a bunch of rangers and fighters the other day and I ended up with aggro everytime no matter what I did. The clerics were having an off day in the group I was in so I died a fair amount. Rage and madstone would raise my dps sure but it would also put me up to about 500 hit points which is easier for clerics to keep up..

Yaga_Nub
07-23-2008, 07:07 AM
I think to give you a little perspective/wisdom I will share the current situation of my ranger. She is a strength based halfling who puts out alot of dps. Her ac is not high enough to be relevant. I went with 4 fighter levels and 1 barbarian level in part for the hit points and the ability to rage at end bosses which in conjunction with madstone gives her quite a bit of hit points. She also kills things really fast so fast that she doesn't take alot of damage. I have not had any issues with her from a defensive perspective on anything until Vod. Vod has become an issue for her because she always gets aggro and can't rage or use madstone boots hence her hit points are lower (her base is 375 unraged). Sometimes clerics have trouble keeping her up. My solution to all this or hoped for solution is to get the tharne's bracer which would reduce the threat by 20% and if I am running with other dps characters hopefully I would not get aggro all the time. I don't know if the tharne's bracers would solve your problem or even if it will certainly solve mine, but here is to hoping it will.

Your solution is to run with better clerics. :)

rpasell
07-23-2008, 07:40 AM
The clerics were having an off day in the group I was in so I died a fair amount.

"UUUUMMMM.....Yeah................We're going to need you to come in on Saturday"


So you can't manage your agro, and the Clerics were having an off day?

Diplomacy?

Hadrian
07-23-2008, 08:16 AM
I noticed that the post where he lists his stats leaves out Intelligence.

You must have a 13 base int to take combat expertise. This includes only creation points and tomes.

If you do not meet this, you can never take combat expertise.


Fighter might be an option if you meet the requirement for combat expertise. You could go 15/1 and take toughness at 15 and combat expertise at 16 (fighter level) while still getting that 4th favored enemy.

If your alignment doesn't allow monk or paladin and your intelligence doesn't allow for CE, I'd just stay pure ranger. If you're sure you won't be happy that way, it's time to reroll.

Start Lawful Good and take at least 11 intelligence to leave all of your options open to you.

kingfisher
07-23-2008, 12:06 PM
"UUUUMMMM.....Yeah................We're going to need you to come in on Saturday"


So you can't manage your agro, and the Clerics were having an off day?

Diplomacy?

"hey peter, whaaaats haaaappening?"

"hey peter-man, watch out for yer cornhole bud"

"lumberg ****ed her."

"i used to be addidded to crack..."

maddmatt70
07-23-2008, 01:49 PM
"UUUUMMMM.....Yeah................We're going to need you to come in on Saturday"


So you can't manage your agro, and the Clerics were having an off day?

Diplomacy?

People actually take diplomacy in game that are not rogues. Come on you kidding..

Beherit_Baphomar
07-23-2008, 01:53 PM
I noticed that the post where he lists his stats leaves out Intelligence.

You must have a 13 base int to take combat expertise. This includes only creation points and tomes.

If you do not meet this, you can never take combat expertise.


Fighter might be an option if you meet the requirement for combat expertise. You could go 15/1 and take toughness at 15 and combat expertise at 16 (fighter level) while still getting that 4th favored enemy.

If your alignment doesn't allow monk or paladin and your intelligence doesn't allow for CE, I'd just stay pure ranger. If you're sure you won't be happy that way, it's time to reroll.

Start Lawful Good and take at least 11 intelligence to leave all of your options open to you.

My INT is high enough to take CE...I cant go monk or pally so Im thinking fighter might be a good option.

CSFurious
07-23-2008, 02:02 PM
i have an elf 12 tempest ranger/4 fighter that has 327 hitpoints & can actually get higher once i craft some weapons & acquire a +2con tome

anyway, splashing some fighter can only help your build at the current end-game IMO

3 favored enemies are enough because your tempest enhancement helps you dps

it is human nature for the pure rangers to defend their builds, remember that when you make your decision

good luck

p.s. that combat expertise is a big waste of time for a tempest ranger

Beherit_Baphomar
07-23-2008, 02:07 PM
p.s. that combat expertise is a big waste of time for a tempest ranger

Im not a Tempest ranger, but I could be. Thats another thing that taking two levels of fighter would help me out with.

Im thinking Ive made my mind up and gonna take the two levels of fighter next.

CSFurious
07-23-2008, 02:12 PM
i think once you start playing around with tempest that you will be happy

it is a really cool enhancement especially when you dual-wield vorpals

Im not a Tempest ranger, but I could be. Thats another thing that taking two levels of fighter would help me out with.

Im thinking Ive made my mind up and gonna take the two levels of fighter next.

Hadrian
07-23-2008, 02:22 PM
Combat Expertise may not be your favorite feat, but to say it's a waste for a build that can hit 60 AC (the typical tempest ranger 11 or higher) before CE doesn't make a whole lot of sense to my understanding of the game.

Simplty put, it can help your DPS in some cases when you're not taking damage in return. It's one tool of many that you have, and certainly only situational for cases where things can actually hit you without it, but it comes in very handy when you need it.

Part of DPS is having the ability to stand in there and deliver your attacks.

rpasell
07-23-2008, 03:27 PM
People actually take diplomacy in game that are not rogues. Come on you kidding..

If you have trouble managing your agro then yes. 2 of my 3 rangers use it because they generate too much hate, especially in the new content against favored enemies.

maddmatt70
07-23-2008, 03:33 PM
If you have trouble managing your agro then yes. 2 of my 3 rangers use it because they generate too much hate, especially in the new content against favored enemies.

I honestly have never seen a non rogue build posted on these forums with diplomacy well perhaps a wiz or sorc build that had it. What is more I never heard a single poster say a build that was posted should have diplomacy. The reality is this is a specific quest where my character can't use all of her abilities specifically rage and madstone rage so I have had to adapt. The tharne set will probably make this all moot of course and in addition getting the tharne set will also lessen my desire to run the quest on that character, but that is another issue.

rpasell
07-23-2008, 11:54 PM
I honestly have never seen a non rogue build posted on these forums with diplomacy

Now you have.

CSFurious
07-24-2008, 11:25 AM
ce good for builds that use big shields, last time i checked tempest rangers do not use shields

honestly, i do not understand how you can think decreasing your attack with ce up increases your dps


Combat Expertise may not be your favorite feat, but to say it's a waste for a build that can hit 60 AC (the typical tempest ranger 11 or higher) before CE doesn't make a whole lot of sense to my understanding of the game.

Simplty put, it can help your DPS in some cases when you're not taking damage in return. It's one tool of many that you have, and certainly only situational for cases where things can actually hit you without it, but it comes in very handy when you need it.

Part of DPS is having the ability to stand in there and deliver your attacks.

CSFurious
07-24-2008, 11:26 AM
i would think most bards would want diplomacy

i would even go so far to say that any bard without it is sort of gimpy unless they are a dwarf


Now you have.

Hadrian
07-24-2008, 11:54 AM
ce good for builds that use big shields, last time i checked tempest rangers do not use shields

honestly, i do not understand how you can think decreasing your attack with ce up increases your dps

Tempest rangers don't need to use shields to get to the level of AC where combat expertise is effective.

It's a practical reason that your DPS increases, not a theoretical one. We've all seen that DPS build that rushes in, gets hit and has to back off to heal or be healed. The clock doesn't stop when you have to back off, so your DPS is going down drastically if you're not swining.

That minus 5 to-hit isn't going to make you miss any more often than you would with power attack on, and instant killing, stat damage or debuffing don't really require power attack's added damage per hit.

Of course, if you're not in a situation where you need that extra 5 AC, then go all out with power attack. If you can sense that you're in a situation where the ability to stand in there and last the fight is more important than damage per swing, then you have the tools to adapt.

CSFurious
07-24-2008, 12:33 PM
first, any ranger who is not a dwarf who rushes into the enemy is dumb

second, what number ac are we talking about? 50, 55, 65

unless you are getting up to over 60, i think ac is pointless at end-game & you also have to grind for uber-items to get it that high (why add more grind to the game?)

third, only weapon-finesse tempests need power attack, if you are str-based, you will do plenty of damage without it

also, who cares about power-attack if you are a tempest who dual-wields vorpals, i.e., they are going down faster when you chop off their head vs. diminishing their hitpoints (unless you have w/p's)

power-attack would really only come into play when you are not using vorpals & i submit that for the most part that when you fight mobs that can be vorpalled that you should just chop their heads off & not mess around

it comes down to different playstyles & what is important to you; with my ranger, i got decent hitpoints & displacement dragonmarks & as long as i flank the enemy or shadow a dwarf, i rarely get into any sort of trouble

later


Tempest rangers don't need to use shields to get to the level of AC where combat expertise is effective.

It's a practical reason that your DPS increases, not a theoretical one. We've all seen that DPS build that rushes in, gets hit and has to back off to heal or be healed. The clock doesn't stop when you have to back off, so your DPS is going down drastically if you're not swining.

That minus 5 to-hit isn't going to make you miss any more often than you would with power attack on, and instant killing, stat damage or debuffing don't really require power attack's added damage per hit.

Of course, if you're not in a situation where you need that extra 5 AC, then go all out with power attack. If you can sense that you're in a situation where the ability to stand in there and last the fight is more important than damage per swing, then you have the tools to adapt.

Hadrian
07-24-2008, 12:53 PM
it comes down to different playstyles & what is important to you; with my ranger, i got decent hitpoints & displacement dragonmarks & as long as i flank the enemy or shadow a dwarf, i rarely get into any sort of trouble

later

That's a change of tune from the blanket statement that CE is a waste for any tempest ranger. It's also a change in tune from your first line calling anyone who isn't a dwarf ranger that "rushes in" dumb. If you want to be accepting of different opinions, you shouldn't make so many blanket statements.


You can see for yourself the various builds on these ranger forums and the AC they can reach.

maddmatt70
07-24-2008, 02:41 PM
i would think most bards would want diplomacy

i would even go so far to say that any bard without it is sort of gimpy unless they are a dwarf

I don't have it on my human bard and never have an issue. My bard is strength based, piercing specced with the vod goggles, bloodstone, and two shroud double tier 2 weapons and still I don't have an issue with my battle bard. I think it has to do with a bard just can't generate the aggro of some of the melee classes such as barbarian or ranger. My ranger is a strength based tempest ranger halfling wielding khopeshes with power attack. Basically my strength based ranger is one of the highest possible dpsers - for a ranger it is probably the highest hate generator you can make. I never have an issue though because of hit points/dps on any other quest other then vod.

maddmatt70
07-24-2008, 02:46 PM
first, any ranger who is not a dwarf who rushes into the enemy is dumb

second, what number ac are we talking about? 50, 55, 65

unless you are getting up to over 60, i think ac is pointless at end-game & you also have to grind for uber-items to get it that high (why add more grind to the game?)

third, only weapon-finesse tempests need power attack, if you are str-based, you will do plenty of damage without it

also, who cares about power-attack if you are a tempest who dual-wields vorpals, i.e., they are going down faster when you chop off their head vs. diminishing their hitpoints (unless you have w/p's)

power-attack would really only come into play when you are not using vorpals & i submit that for the most part that when you fight mobs that can be vorpalled that you should just chop their heads off & not mess around

it comes down to different playstyles & what is important to you; with my ranger, i got decent hitpoints & displacement dragonmarks & as long as i flank the enemy or shadow a dwarf, i rarely get into any sort of trouble

later

I would care about power attack on red named. I like dps how about you?

Madalive
07-28-2008, 03:44 PM
Take Fighter

Your base attack needs to be +16 to get the 4th arrow for Multi-shot. If you take Monk you won’t get it (I think).

CSFurious
07-29-2008, 05:55 AM
only anyone still fighting with a 2-hander really needs power-attack, there is the mentality sometimes that some feats are absolute must-haves for any build, please give me a break

i still average 75 on every hit against the pit-fiend who i fight every 3 days with my tempest ranger, i will not lose any sleep over not having 5 to 10 more damage per swing

i take down other red-names plenty fast, i.e., no one has ever complained & i pug with good players all of the time


I would care about power attack on red named. I like dps how about you?

CSFurious
07-29-2008, 06:01 AM
that warchanters probably do not need diplo because they are tough

drow spellsingers might want it because they are sort of squishy


I don't have it on my human bard and never have an issue. My bard is strength based, piercing specced with the vod goggles, bloodstone, and two shroud double tier 2 weapons and still I don't have an issue with my battle bard. I think it has to do with a bard just can't generate the aggro of some of the melee classes such as barbarian or ranger. My ranger is a strength based tempest ranger halfling wielding khopeshes with power attack. Basically my strength based ranger is one of the highest possible dpsers - for a ranger it is probably the highest hate generator you can make. I never have an issue though because of hit points/dps on any other quest other then vod.

Hadrian
07-29-2008, 10:12 AM
i still average 100 on every hit against the pit-fiend who i fight every 3 days with my tempest ranger, i will not lose any sleep over not having 5 to 10 more damage per swing



There is no doubt that a dwarven axe in the hands of a high-strength pure ranger is doing a large amount of damage against a favored enemy, but an average of 100 damage per swing would require a base, non-crit swing of ~73.5 damage (meaning this is the number multiplied by a critical hit). This assumes a holy + elemental burst mineral 2. You'd have to add the 3d6 holy + elemental and the 2d10 elemental burst on crit, which will average out to about 15.4 damage per attack, to fill in the rest and reach the 100 mark.

This assumes missing on a 1 and crits on 19-20.

Max strength dwarf

18 + 4 levels +2 tome +6 item +2 rage spell + 2 madstone rage (+2 double madstone) = 34 (36)

+12 (13) strength mod to damage
+12 fully enhanced favored enemy (with 4 FE feats)
+5 weapon mod
+9 = average of 2d8 weapon base damage
_________________

38 (39) base damage per swing that may be multiplied by crits

+10.5 = average of 3d6 additional from holy/X burst

The normal non-crit hit is 48.5 (49.5) damage. This is reduced for the off-hand due to the strength-to-damage penalty.

What am I missing that grants the additional damage?

CSFurious
07-29-2008, 10:25 AM
i must crit a lot, i will lower the average down to 75, and state that most hits are for around 50 & crit is around 100 or over

if you want me to, next time i melee the pit fiend, i will watch my combat log closer while on auto-attack & file a TPS report afterwards

& actually for my weapons on the pit-fiend, i am currently using a holy burst silver longsword of greater evil outsider bane & an anarchic burst rapier of maiming

they work pretty well

i have some enhancements for the longsword/rapier & do have evil outsiders as a fav enemy & also am using ram's might

anyway, not a number's person, i will just say that a str-based elf tempest ranger can cause good damage with 32 str & with 30 dex can evade the blades & meteor swarms in there

point of the above is that power attack does not make all builds super-duper & that i do not need to sit around with my dps spreadsheet to understand how to play this game

Hadrian
07-29-2008, 11:23 AM
i must crit a lot, i will lower the average down to 75, and state that most hits are for around 50 & crit is around 100 or over



No need to prove this to me. This sounds perfectly reasonable with bard buffs. I just don't like to see a huge exaggeration used to prove why some number is insignificant. I wouldn't call an 11ish &#37; damage increase insignificant.

Also, I didn't get into spread sheets to calculate that. It's really very simple algebra, and no effort.

0.85(x+3d6) + 0.1 [(crit multiplier)(x)+3d6+2d10] = average hit

So filling in the average hit of 100 gives you the X, or average hit that is affected by the crit multiplier. It really only takes 2 minutes with a calculator.

gfunk
07-29-2008, 11:47 AM
I think it depends on how much gear you are going to farm for your build. If you want to commit to farming some icy raiments and a chattering ring, then going ranger all the way is nice (extra favored enemy plus leaves you open to whatever lvl 20 brings). With gfl, mino's helm, and a shroud 45 hp item you can get your hp over 300 (not sure what your current con item is), so HP can be Ok.

I play a pure Ranger as my main with similar stats and some fairly decent gear, and I find that i can often hurl myself at enemies without having to worry about my dwarven chaperone being there to watch over me.

If you don't want to commit to farming all that gear and spending the larges, then i think the Fighter with some CE is probably the way to go. (too bad the monk doesn't work for you, i have been sorely tempted to take a level when the cap goes up).

Beherit_Baphomar
07-29-2008, 12:01 PM
Yeah,

If I could go monk I would in a heartbeat. Farming Icy Rainment is no big deal, there's nothing else to do
in this game at the mo. Chattering Ring, well, thats gonna take at least 20 runs...prolly more...but basically
Im not worried about the farming for items.

Ive already started crafting for the +45HP's Shroud item, so he's gonna be sitting at around 320 I imagine when
he finally gets in to craft. So thats a relief actually.
I still think Im gonna go fighter for the last two, and possible respec him to Tempest...

When I built this guy I didnt want another min/maxer, Ive done the barbarian to lvl16 and seeing close to 250
damage a swing is nice, he's a monster.

I run a Sorc with a 38 CHA, massive DC's, 2400 SP's and he's fun too.

My cleric heals for nearly 1200hps on a crit, he's fun too.

But they are all min/maxers. This lil ranger guy is fun, he has a 22 self buffed UMD, he has a high spot, move silent etc.
He was originally gonna be a soloer, and I still use him for that but its getting tougher with so little HP's, heh.

He's basically just not an uber-doober build, but I dont want him relegated to "painful to play" like my 28pt original Paladin
is.

Return_To_Forever
07-29-2008, 12:07 PM
this thread has been totally helpful, I have a sim issue, unfortunately I see my guy as being gimped with the 13 int, just feel like I should have those att points in something else. When I made him, CE seemed pretty cool, and he was going to be all teched, thats was a yr or so ago, heh, but now ac just seems pretty useless.

I still haven't decided if I'm going to reroll, I don't have a good wis, like base 11 with a +1 tome, he is LG but I dunno if I want to go monk out of the blue, ftr seems like the right choice to me, but that friggin int score keeps peering at me. Too bad he has a good amount of raid gear, which is kinda unfortunate with all my guys, they all kinda feel a lil gimped now, sigh.

anyways, thnx for everyone who is participating in this thread

maddmatt70
07-29-2008, 03:13 PM
only anyone still fighting with a 2-hander really needs power-attack, there is the mentality sometimes that some feats are absolute must-haves for any build, please give me a break

i still average 75 on every hit against the pit-fiend who i fight every 3 days with my tempest ranger, i will not lose any sleep over not having 5 to 10 more damage per swing

i take down other red-names plenty fast, i.e., no one has ever complained & i pug with good players all of the time

Twf fighters beneftit greatly from power attack it adds 5 points of damage to each weapon when attacking this is not unlike t-handers. Sword and board it helps the least for those CE has a much better cost benefit. Another thing in ddo is people don't miss with their attacks so they can have power attack on virtually the whole time. Rangers are strapped for feats which is why not every ranger has power attack, but if they had more feats every ranger would have it enough said.

maddmatt70
07-29-2008, 03:16 PM
that warchanters probably do not need diplo because they are tough

drow spellsingers might want it because they are sort of squishy

I would never have diplomacy on a spellsingers because they don't get aggro. The only build that I saw that would should even consider it was a build which called itself a nuker build and specialized in greater shout as a damage dealer and had empower and maximize, but even for that build since the bard can self heal they can take on aggro.