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Olithian
07-22-2008, 06:55 AM
After running the Shroud last night and being told my ac sucks, how do some folks get their's so high? Is it items? Feats? I'd like to know.

Riot
07-22-2008, 07:35 AM
gear and feats.... but mostly gear.

Dex and Enhancements can help as well.

Aranticus
07-22-2008, 07:45 AM
L16 fighter

base: 10
+5 mfp: +13
+5 mts: +9
22 dex: +6
chaosgarde: +2
protection +5: +5
+4 shroud insight: +4
chattering ring: +3
total: 52

throw in some buffs, a friendly pally
barkskin: +5
pally aura: +5
inspire heroism: +4
total: 66

combat expertise: +5 (thanks debo)
total 71

not quite the ac player here. this the best i can figure

debo
07-22-2008, 07:46 AM
GEAR!

And don't expect to get it THAT high self-buffed without combat expertise.

Borror0
07-22-2008, 02:33 PM
Gear, but Combat Expertise and decent Dexterity is needed.

vyvy3369
07-22-2008, 04:52 PM
Gear, but Combat Expertise and decent Dexterity is needed.
I've heard people talking about how you "need" good dex, but really it just gets to be a very large cost for anything above 18. I'm usually walking around at 59 when I dedicate both ring slots to AC on my 16 Fighter (61 when the rituals get fixed) with an 18 dex. Raising that to 22 would give 2 more AC at the cost of 12 AP for a dwarf...or even more for a non-dwarf. Gear & CE is pretty much all of it - the buffs vary by party and can help pretty much anyone.

Borror0
07-22-2008, 05:02 PM
18 still means you got 12 base Dex, you know.

Dexxaan
07-22-2008, 05:04 PM
Gear and Standard Gear Allocation are most important, the "edge" comes from careful character planning since creation, and of course balancing your AC with your usefulness to a group is something to consider. Too many people claim they do just fine with a 46 AC and "get hit just as much as a 68 AC" :rolleyes:; and by doing just fine means the Cleric has drained most his mana in a wasteful manner and leaving him little or none for his own Battle prowess to shine (Blade Bariers, Slay Living, Searing Light, etc..)

Too many people post their AC&#180;s with IF I had this, when my L16 Pally friend clamps onto my beltbuckle with a 2 foot rope, right after my Ranger friend Drops a Barkskin on me, and of course the cleric casts recitation, as soon as the bard sings his Dodge tune.... and I boost myself for 20 seconds I have a <insert denial objective AC # here>

IMO it&#180;s nothing more than what you are at after being rezzed and have to start swinging to save the wounded Cleric from his Aggro, and pick up some stones....NOW what is your AC? (What ring are/were you wearing, and how many pots and clickies can you hit before that Ice Flenser turns you into a Sushi roll and no Wasabi to go?

My 2 CP&#180;s.

debo
07-22-2008, 05:17 PM
After running the Shroud last night and being told my ac sucks, how do some folks get their's so high? Is it items? Feats? I'd like to know.

I would worry more about your hps then your ac. Unfortunately, at this point in the game a high armor class isn't a Fighter's strength.

Blazer
07-22-2008, 05:29 PM
OP, if you're looking for help in getting your AC higher, feel free to post what your equipment and stats are currently, as well as your unbuffed AC on your fighter. Not knowing the guy who made the original comment to you, it's possible it was coming from a well geared AC tank, a high dex/wis ranger/monk build, or some other permutation built by an experienced veteran.

As others have said, though, it's a combination of gear, DEX, feats, and enhancements.


IMO it&#180;s nothing more than what you are at after being rezzed and have to start swinging to save the wounded Cleric from his Aggro, and pick up some stones....NOW what is your AC? (What ring are/were you wearing, and how many pots and clickies can you hit before that Ice Flenser turns you into a Sushi roll and no Wasabi to go?

Fair enough. 58/61 depending on if I'm wearing my Seal of the Earth in the dynamic ring slot. Honestly, however, I'd probably skip the "swinging to save the wounded cleric" thing...I'd just intimidate the flenser off him, shield block (25 DR), and let him rez the rest of the party. If needed I can HV boost (+5 AC) or Uncanny Dodge boost (+4 AC) or both (+9) putting me anywhere from 62-70 AC depending on the combination. :)

Borror0
07-22-2008, 05:33 PM
Honestly, however, I'd probably skip the "swinging to save the wounded cleric" thing...I'd just intimidate the flenser off him, shield block (25 DR), and let him rez the rest of the party. If needed I can HV boost (+5 AC) or Uncanny Dodge boost (+4 AC) or both (+9) putting me anywhere from 62-70 AC depending on the combination. :)

Which leads to the topic, if your AC fighter doesn't have Intimidate, you're a gimp and reroll.

If you're about to roll a fighter or barbarian, even if you don't go for AC, max Intimidate. It has its uses.

Blazer
07-22-2008, 05:41 PM
If you're about to roll a fighter or barbarian, even if you don't go for AC, max Intimidate. It has its uses.

Sing it Brother Borror0. :D

Would you believe I was in a Shroud pug a week or two ago, intimidated some trash mobs, and after the little orange icons went off someone asked the group "what spell was that?". :p

vyvy3369
07-22-2008, 05:51 PM
18 still means you got 12 base Dex, you know.
In my case yes, but you can get that starting with a 9 (or even an 8 if you splash a dex class). The point remains though that for people talking about 22+ dex, on most fighter classes that means spending a lot of your build points on dex and a large number of action points when it's a relatively small increase in overall AC. Not to say that it's not worth it by any means if that's what you want, but the OP probably can't change his dex much, and if he can't get it that high it's hardly going to gimp him.

debo
07-22-2008, 05:59 PM
Posting your build would definitely help us ... help you. :)

debo
07-22-2008, 06:03 PM
Which leads to the topic, if your AC fighter doesn't have Intimidate, you're a gimp and reroll.


Let's not rub it in the faces of Fighters made in the days before intimidate/combat expertise were necessary ;)

The days when Armor Mastery 4 still existed. Pretty funny now when you think about them nerfing that.

Borror0
07-22-2008, 06:18 PM
Let's not rub it in the faces of Fighters made in the days before intimidate/combat expertise were necessary ;)

Yeah, well that chracter has now evolved to the point of extreme gimpyness. Sorry to being the bad news, but that's true.

Borror0
07-22-2008, 06:21 PM
Would you believe I was in a Shroud pug a week or two ago, intimidated some trash mobs, and after the little orange icons went off someone asked the group "what spell was that?". :p

I'm the total opposite.

Borror: Who just used intimidate?!
Random PuG: Me.
Borror: You rock!

debo
07-22-2008, 06:40 PM
Yeah, well that chracter has now evolved to the point of extreme gimpyness. Sorry to being the bad news, but that's true.

eh ... I don't know about extreme... but yea he is gimpy. But when you have every possible item dangling off of you ... it can make up for some short comings.

For the record... I am not to convinced that hitting 63 ac or 58 is THAT much of a difference. You could argue that having more hps as opposed to ac is more important in just as many situations.

Only having a 30 intimidate is gimpy? But yea...wish it was higher. BUT YEA... you are biased because you LOVE intimidate! :).
Turbine giving you VOD is like you dying and going to heaven. :p

I kid I kid...

All depends on how you play the character man. Maybe next mod ... or when ever they give us fighter's some love...things change :)

I rarely wear a shield now a days anyway;)

Borror0
07-22-2008, 07:15 PM
eh ... I don't know about extreme... but yea he is gimpy. But when you have every possible item dangling off of you ... it can make up for some short comings.

False. AC, without aggro, is about as good as no AC.


For the record... I am not to convinced that hitting 63 ac or 58 is THAT much of a difference.

I am. I saw the difference.


Only having a 30 intimidate is gimpy? But yea...wish it was higher. BUT YEA... you are biased because you LOVE intimidate! :).

No, it's because I see the potential in Intimidate. I saved parties from wipe with it. It is that powerful.


Maybe next mod ... or when ever they give us fighter's some love...things change :)

False. Intimidate will still be uber, and S&D without an aggro taunt will still be gimpy. Even for a ThF fighter, Intimidate will remain a must.

Tanka
07-22-2008, 07:42 PM
Intimidate is very, very, very useful, however!:

1) 8 Int Fighters keep Jump maxed. You're useless if you can't make it over the monsters in front of you to take out the caster in the back.
2) 10 Int Fighters keep Jump and Balance maxed. Being on your rear means you're doing nothing for the party.
3) 12+ Int Fighters can then worry about Intimidate, but a lot would rather keep UMD up for bypassing restrctions.

Obviously Humans can drop those numbers by two, but for the most part, the above will hold true for any Fighter. Barbarians obviously have more wiggle room, but the idea is the same.

transtemporal
07-22-2008, 09:47 PM
Would you believe I was in a Shroud pug a week or two ago, intimidated some trash mobs, and after the little orange icons went off someone asked the group "what spell was that?". :p

I occasionally get the same reaction on my barb Blazer. I see intimidate being used very rarely and it really surprises me because its amazingly effective. In exchange for a few hits on me, everyone else gets free attacks and flanking bonus (sometimes with sneak attack).

Aranticus
07-22-2008, 10:23 PM
the new content gave some fighter love which i'd like to see it expanded. the leviks set is all about agro grabbing. my fighter with the set is able to easily pull the agro off sally in vod from a thf raged barb. with a sufficiently high ac, i wasnt getting knocked around hard

Olithian
07-23-2008, 06:04 AM
Posting your build would definitely help us ... help you. :)

Well, I really don't have much.

+5 MFP
Madstone shield
+5 protection
Minos Legion helm

That's it. No uber gear, no nothing. 32 str, 16 dex (w/+6 boots) and nothing else to really write home about. I've never been able to complete the Titan so I don't have that item and my luck for pulling items is horrid. My standing ac without buffs is a 40 w/shield, but I mostly use 2 handed weapons so it's a 30.

Aesop
07-23-2008, 06:17 AM
Well, I really don't have much.

+5 MFP
Madstone shield
+5 protection
Minos Legion helm

That's it. No uber gear, no nothing. 32 str, 16 dex (w/+6 boots) and nothing else to really write home about. I've never been able to complete the Titan so I don't have that item and my luck for pulling items is horrid. My standing ac without buffs is a 40 w/shield, but I mostly use 2 handed weapons so it's a 30.

what's your Int (need 13 for combat expertise)
Chaosguards? drops in XC Green Key chest +2 Dodge
Find a +2 Dex tome and take Armor Mastery 1
Shroud Weapon with +4 Insight Bonus to AC


so if you can get a 13 Int

we're looking at
+5 CE
+2 CG
+1 Dex
+4 Insight
carry Barkskin Pots +3

+15 AC from that for a 55 while Shielded

if you can get a Chattering Ring that's an additional +3

58

if you havea 12th level backpack ranger +2 extra Barkskin
for

60

if you really want to go all out and can get the Dodge Feat prerequisite
+1

61


not too bad really


Aesop

Riot
07-23-2008, 08:05 AM
/e sheds a tear of pride....

All this Benefit of Intimidate and AC talk makes me soooooo proud!





But yer still not getting my bud light.

debo
07-23-2008, 08:33 AM
Well, I really don't have much.

+5 MFP
Madstone shield
+5 protection
Minos Legion helm

That's it. No uber gear, no nothing. 32 str, 16 dex (w/+6 boots) and nothing else to really write home about. I've never been able to complete the Titan so I don't have that item and my luck for pulling items is horrid. My standing ac without buffs is a 40 w/shield, but I mostly use 2 handed weapons so it's a 30.

How many hps do you have?

What feats did you take?

For sure hitting 40 ac wearing a shield isn't doing you any favors. Depending on other factors... you might be totally better off respec'ing for two handed fighting.

Did you put skill points into intimidate and do you have 13 intelligence?

Uproar
07-23-2008, 08:41 AM
Which leads to the topic, if your AC fighter doesn't have Intimidate, you're a gimp and reroll.

If you're about to roll a fighter or barbarian, even if you don't go for AC, max Intimidate. It has its uses.

Unless your a WF. :-)

You'll rarely (though not never) see the intimidate icon above my mobs. That's what Brute Fighting is for -- and it generally works quite well so far at level 10 and at second enhancement level.

The_Phenx
07-23-2008, 09:57 AM
Edited for content LOL... see below.

Blazer
07-23-2008, 10:05 AM
L16 fighter

base: 10
+5 mfp: +13
Fighters Armor Mastery +3
Chattering Ring +3
Seal of the earth +3
Insight Shroud Kopesh +4
25 Dex +6
Dodge Feat +1
Prot +4
total: 47

51 w shield clickie

52 w haste

This is without a shield dual weilding kopeshs.

Nub, you forgot your size modifier on Ghinsuu (halfy). If you're gonna post your stats, at least do it correctly. :p

Blazer
07-23-2008, 10:06 AM
But yer still not getting my bud light.

Appreciate the joke, but yuck to Bud Light. No one really drinks that swill, do they?

The_Phenx
07-23-2008, 10:14 AM
Nub, you forgot your size modifier on Ghinsuu (halfy). If you're gonna post your stats, at least do it correctly. :p

nvrmind I got it... fixing my post.

Aranticus
07-23-2008, 10:22 AM
L16 fighter

base: 10
+5 mfp: +13
Fighters Armor Mastery +3
Chattering Ring +3
Seal of the earth +3
Insight Shroud Kopesh +4
25 Dex +6
Dodge Feat +1
Prot +4
total: 47

51 w shield clickie

52 w haste

This is without a shield dual weilding kopeshs.

this 2 are the same. fighter armor mastery increase DEX bonus on armor by 3. so for a mith fp, allowed dex bonus will be +6

debo
07-23-2008, 10:23 AM
L16 fighter

base: 10
+5 mfp: +13
Fighters Armor Mastery +3
Chattering Ring +3
Seal of the earth +3
Insight Shroud Kopesh +4
25 Dex +6
Dodge Feat +1
Prot +4
total: 47

51 w shield clickie

52 w haste

This is without a shield dual weilding kopeshs.

You are showing a +9 dex bonus. Fighter armor mastery is included in the +6 dex... it isn't +3 all by itself.

The_Phenx
07-23-2008, 10:50 AM
Aye I caught that myself...lol I'm tired. :) Thats what I get for cutting and pasting.

Fixed....

L16 fighter

base: 10
+5 mfp: +13
Prot +5
Chattering Ring +3
Seal of the earth +3
Insight Shroud Kopesh +4
25 Dex (armor mastery) +6
Dodge Feat +1
Halfling Size Bonus +1

total: 46

50 w shield clickie

51 w haste

throw in some buffs, a friendly pally
barkskin: +2
pally aura: +5
inspire heroism: +4
total: 62 This is without a shield dual weilding kopeshs.

+5 Mith Tower +3 more (doesnt stack w shield spell so -4 from there)

65 Ac

Defensive Fighting

67 Ac

Borror0
07-23-2008, 10:51 AM
You'll rarely (though not never) see the intimidate icon above my mobs.

No offense, but Intiidate had uses Brute Fighting doesn't have.

The_Phenx
07-23-2008, 11:03 AM
False. AC, without aggro, is about as good as no AC.

Ac without intimidate keeps yer heiny alive and spares the poor clerics mana pool...

Intimidate is very useful, especially in the new raids but is not mandatory...

Borror0
07-23-2008, 11:36 AM
Intimidate is very useful, especially in the new raids but is not mandatory...

Foir AC builds, it is... or you're gimped.

The_Phenx
07-23-2008, 11:41 AM
<shrug> I have a respectable ac and prefer to do dps...

I think the dividing line is if you waste all those feats and stat points on combat expertise use a shield all the itme and don't take intim...

Then yer just a low dps fighter who wont get hit much.

Blazer
07-23-2008, 11:44 AM
Foir AC builds, it is... or you're gimped.

For hardcore CE type fighter builds, yeah, invest in intimidiate. What The Phenx is trying to say, however, is that if one is not building for intimidate/tanking a la Riot or you, but rather a DPS build, don't just throw the concept of AC out the window, one can still achieve a solid AC.

debo
07-23-2008, 11:59 AM
False. AC, without aggro, is about as good as no AC..

There are other ways of getting aggro without intimidate BorrorO. Don't paint the game in such a simple brush. And who says I don't get aggro? AC has it's uses other then just for intimidate.



I am. I saw the difference.

I see the difference too when I hit the HV ac boost. You can argue that the skill points are better spent in a higher con or str then in the int required to get combat exp. That is ARGUE... not saying that you are wrong. Again you paint things too simple.



No, it's because I see the potential in Intimidate. I saved parties from wipe with it. It is that powerful.


Intimidate is very very useful I agree. But again... you can get BY (ie not EXTREMELY GIMPY) without it with the right GEAR.. and PLAYER.



False. Intimidate will still be uber, and S&D without an aggro taunt will still be gimpy. Even for a ThF fighter, Intimidate will remain a must.

Yes it is gimpy. However, you said EXTREMELY gimpy...and that is a slight exaggeration ;). I would be even more of a gimp if I DID take combat expertise but not put skill points into intimidate. Since I didn't take either...well not enough intimidate to really be effective... I have a little bit more options. I do have 34 str... slash feats etc...tricked out gear... 480 hps before rages/buffs. I only throw on a shield if AC is needed. Other times... I am swinging a Mineral 2 greataxe. The great thing about Fighters are that they can probably be respec'd during the course of there careers more then any other class because all their abilities are Feats. When they give us fighters some attention I will be in a position to take advantage of it because I am not pigeon holed into any one type of "Fighter". You will always be an intimitank and who knows what the future holds for intimidate. That wasn't something I was striving for when I made my fighter circa mod 3.

Is Intimidate>umd? Again debateable. Being able to cast heal scrolls is great. That also saves people from wipes.

I am an intimidate fan. I won't deny that. However, you make it like melees can't live without it.... which simply isn't true. I am sure you are very effective with your dwarven defender build. Would love to play with you any time. But relax a little with the arrogant attitude. I don't know that many players on Sarlona who use intimidate other then in VOD... and we game just as hardcore as the other servers. Maybe I would have to group with you to see your "game changing" intimidate skills in action. Because from my experience... while very very useful to have... it isnt the all encompasing n00b-pwning ability that a melee is REQUIRED to have.

Deathseeker
07-23-2008, 11:59 AM
Ok guys, I'm missing something...if I have a 55 ac, then it takes a 20 to hit me if the mob has a + to-hit of 35, right (melee of course)?

If I have a 45 ac, then he only has to roll a ten, right?

So when discussing whether "ac is useful" it's all about which mobs and how high their + to-hit values are. I keep seeing statements like "ac is not that helpful" or "ac is mandetory", but I think it's a little more specific than that. And specifically, seems to me there is a massive difference between a 55 and 60. In fact, people seem to think blur is helpful, but that's only 10&#37; mitigation, which would be the equivalent of +2 ac if your ac is in the band that's relevant for the mob you are fighting. Obviously going from 10 to 12 is irrelevant, but going from 40 to 42 is relevant if the mob requires something between 1 and 20 to hit you.

So back to the OP's question...we need to know what the To-Hit bonus is for the mobs in question to know whether his AC is reasonable or to what level he needs to get. Can anyone enlighten us as to the To-Hit numbers of mobs in the Shroud?

And for what it's worth...I think Itimidate is fantastic, use it all the time, and think it's also great for DPS. Huh? Well, when I'm intimidating, the rogue next to me is sneak attacking like crazy. Add our DPS together and the intimidate makes a massive difference. Same goes with other toons...if they don't have to back off because they are drawing aggro, they are dealing damage more often. If the cleric has more mana, maximized blade barriers ftw. How great is it to hold aggro while standing in a firewall and not seeing the Sorc run in circles avoiding mobs. Intimidating those baddies to join me in a fire bath is always fun. Point is that intimidate can really influence group DPS. It's definitely got it's place in the fight, and not just defense (especially after MOD 7).

The biggest problem with Intimidate...that damn killcount. I dont' get credit and take a beating from the guildies when the bard out kills me :)

debo
07-23-2008, 12:03 PM
And for what it's worth...I think Itimidate is fantastic, use it all the time, and think it's also great for DPS.

I don't think anyone is questioning the value of intimidate. Intimidate is great.

The_Phenx
07-23-2008, 12:09 PM
Shroud

The break point I saw was at 40 ac.

Thats when I started noticing they would miss 25% of the time.

At 45 they miss a lot

At 53 Im noticing they land only 1 in 9-10 hits.

Fully buffed at w shield at 60 + The regular guys almost never hit. (I think 19 or 20)

At 53 w greaves on I can solo tank the named fire ele fairly easily.

Rainbow in the dark. 53 ac + totally unbuffed... they dont touch me.

Blazer
07-23-2008, 01:31 PM
Is Intimidate>umd? Again debateable. Being able to cast heal scrolls is great. That also saves people from wipes.

Why not both? :D

Borror0
07-23-2008, 03:05 PM
<shrug> I have a respectable ac and prefer to do dps...

I think the dividing line is if you waste all those feats and stat points on combat expertise use a shield all the itme and don't take intim...

Ok, then that's fine if you can deal some DPS. I meant more if you were S&B, like my tank, but didn't have Intimidate.

Borror0
07-23-2008, 03:48 PM
Take note that everything that will follow applies to S&B characters, not only 'all melee'.


There are other ways of getting aggro without intimidate Borror0.

Unless you're a ranger with crazy DPS and AC, I don't see it happen. Are you telling me that your fighter can take aggro from a TWF barbarian? A Tempest Str-Based ranger agaisnt his favored enemy? A sorcerer's Wall of Fire? A TWF rogue? Sorry, I don't buy that. There are two ways to get aggro, DPS or Intimidate. Your fighter can't out-DPS the good DPS builds out there.


I see the difference too when I hit the HV ac boost. You can argue that the skill points are better spent in a higher con or str then in the int required to get combat exp. That is ARGUE... not saying that you are wrong. Again you paint things too simple.

You Higher Con? My Dwarven Defender build can reach 449 HP, I don't really think higher Con is needed.
Higher Str? For what? 1 more damage per swing, I have trouble seeing how someone can argue 1 damage per swing beats getting 5 AC, when that 5 AC actually matters.

I' not painting things too simple.


Intimidate is very very useful I agree. But again... you can get BY (ie not EXTREMELY GIMPY) without it with the right GEAR.. and PLAYER.

How? Explain.


Yes it is gimpy. However, you said EXTREMELY gimpy...and that is a slight exaggeration ;).

No. It is not.

Do you have aggro? No.
Do you deal a lot of DPS? No. About as much as an Intimitank.

Do you have anything to out-weight that? No.

You're extremely gimped. Why? You're sub-par in everything. Honestly, I say the same to every guildy that go S&B without Intimidate: reroll, it's a gimp. There is no way to argue that, sorry. What are you good for? Yes, you take less damage, but the only, only time that comes into effect is when monsters have Cleave. Even there, if clerics are mass healing, you're still being a drain as you're dealing less DPS.


I do have 34 str... slash feats etc...tricked out gear... 480 hps before rages/buffs. I only throw on a shield if AC is needed. Other times... I am swinging a Mineral 2 greataxe.

Ok, there ya go. I said if you sticked to S&B, you're gimped.


You will always be an intimitank and who knows what the future holds for intimidate.

I could always respec, I'm as much respec'able as you.


Is Intimidate>umd? Again debateable. Being able to cast heal scrolls is great. That also saves people from wipes.

Yes, Intimidate > UMD. But with a +2 Tome, you can take both.

Can an Heal scroll save from a party wipe? Yes. However, Intimidate is much more efficient at that. Less time I checked, Heal scrolls only healed of 110 points (before modifier) and had a crazily long timer. It doesn't heal fast enough for all the damage that Intimidate can avoid. Like Blazer said previsouly:

*True Rez clickly on the cleric.*
*Intimidate and shield block while he heals the rest of the party.*


However, you make it like melees can't live without it.... which simply isn't true.

Nah, you don't get the message. I said that melee shouldn't try to live without it, and that build going for S&B without Intimidate is a gimped build.


I am sure you are very effective with your dwarven defender build. Would love to play with you any time.

I'd love to play with you on Risia, when they update it.


Maybe I would have to group with you to see your "game changing" intimidate skills in action. Because from my experience... while very very useful to have... it isnt the all encompasing n00b-pwning ability that a melee is REQUIRED to have.

Again, I never said it's required to have, but if you're a melee... try to get it. If you're a S&B melee with low DPS (yes, even turning on PA doesn't save you from being low DPS), then you're a gimp if you don't have Intimidate. It's only requird if you're gonig S&B. Really, if you pan on going S&B, grab Intimidate or you're a gimp. Other than that, Intimidate is awesome on any fighter build when you know when to use it. Of course, without AC, you have to know when to use it or not.

I'll give you an example.

I was leveling up my bard, with a bunch of guildies. We all got flagged for the Tor, so the next logical step is the Tor. We were all 11-12, with only one level 13. The barbarian had Intimidate, so, when we came to the dragons, I put him on the dragon with the sorcerer and the rogue. My warchanter and a TWF fighter were on the giant. The barbarian held aggro with Intimidate all the time, saving the level 11 sorcerer's butt and letting the rogue do full Sneak Attack. That's an example between amongst many. I have much more on my Intimitank.

The_Phenx
07-23-2008, 03:52 PM
Ok, then that's fine if you can deal some DPS. I meant more if you were S&B, like my tank, but didn't have Intimidate.

Some? :D

The_Phenx
07-23-2008, 03:57 PM
Unless you're a ranger with crazy DPS and AC, I don't see it happen. Are you telling me that your fighter can take aggro from a TWF barbarian? A Tempest Str-Based ranger agaisnt his favored enemy? A sorcerer's Wall of Fire? A TWF rogue? Sorry, I don't buy that. There are two ways to get aggro, DPS or Intimidate. Your fighter can't out-DPS the good DPS builds out there.


I can steal aggro from an intimi tank :) :cool:

Deathseeker
07-23-2008, 04:18 PM
Take note that everything that will follow applies to S&B characters, not only 'all melee'.

Do you have aggro? No.
Do you deal a lot of DPS? No. About as much as an Intimitank.

Do you have anything to out-weight that? No.

You're extremely gimped. Why? You're sub-par in everything. Honestly, I say the same to every guildy that go S&B without Intimidate: reroll, it's a gimp. There is no way to argue that, sorry. What are you good for? Yes, you take less damage, but the only, only time that comes into effect is when monsters have Cleave. Even there, if clerics are mass healing, you're still being a drain as you're dealing less DPS.


Borror0, this is an honest question not meant as a counterpoint to any of the previous discussion...I have a S&B AC oriented WF rogue. Strength Based with Kopesh. I believe with the sneak attack damage, kopesh, and other fun stuff associated, his burst DPS is significant...until he gets aggro. When he gets aggro his DPS is crappy and he turtles up and diplo's. Rinse and repeat.

So my question is this...he doesn't use Intimidate, is S&B, hits an AC in the low to mid fifties, but can deal high DPS in bursts when unaggroed. Did I find an exception to your rule that if you go with S&B without Intimidate your a gimp, or would you say he should be using Intimidate? For the sake of discussion let's forget about his rogue-ish noncombat abilities. The question is whether the Sneak Attack Bonus coupled with S&B is an exception to your "S&B should have intimidate or reroll" rule?

Borror0
07-23-2008, 04:29 PM
Some? :D

Ok, some REAL DPS. ;)

Borror0
07-23-2008, 04:34 PM
So my question is this...he doesn't use Intimidate, is S&B, hits an AC in the low to mid fifties, but can deal high DPS in bursts when unaggroed. Did I find an exception to your rule that if you go with S&B without Intimidate your a gimp, or would you say he should be using Intimidate?

Totally, hehe.

Sorry, I wasn't thinking of S&B rogue. They are the exception, to it as they are more effective without aggro. However, putting points itno Intimidate and keeping it maxed wouldn't have been a bad idea as sometimes you rather have your AC rogue to hold the aggro over other characters. In this case, A Vision of Destruction comes to mind. There is a rogue on Khyber, named Moth that does that. I doubt he uses Intimidate at all, but I'm sure that he presses the button when needed... like when the group is surrounded by four nasty red named Elite Orthon Defender.


The question is whether the Sneak Attack Bonus coupled with S&B is an exception to your "S&B should have intimidate or reroll" rule?

Yes. It's the only exception. Why? Because you deal some much DPS you CAN steal aggro, even if S&B.

Other classes cannot acheive that.

Borror0
07-23-2008, 04:35 PM
I can steal aggro from an intimi tank :) :cool:

Tell Blazer to sltop slacking and press Intimidate. ;)

Deathseeker
07-23-2008, 04:47 PM
Totally, hehe.

Sorry, I wasn't thinking of S&B rogue. They are the exception, to it as they are more effective without aggro. However, putting points itno Intimidate and keeping it maxed wouldn't have been a bad idea as sometimes you rather have your AC rogue to hold the aggro over other characters. In this case, A Vision of Destruction comes to mind. There is a rogue on Khyber, named Moth that does that. I doubt he uses Intimidate at all, but I'm sure that he presses the button when needed... like when the group is surrounded by four nasty red named Elite Orthon Defender.



Yes. It's the only exception. Why? Because you deal some much DPS you CAN steal aggro, even if S&B.

Other classes cannot acheive that.

What have you done to me! I already dipped a level of fighter and have a couple levels left. Now I'll have to rethink my skill points or even dip another 2 levels of fighter and go 13 rogue / 3 fighter. Oh, my world was so set and now I'm so confused. Curse you forums for making me read you while at work, curse you!

Thanks for the suggestions...never would have thought to consider Intimidate on my rogue...this is why I love this game over all the others...the build discussions are incredible!

Borror0
07-23-2008, 05:23 PM
What have you done to me! I already dipped a level of fighter and have a couple levels left. Now I'll have to rethink my skill points or even dip another 2 levels of fighter and go 13 rogue / 3 fighter.

Why would you do that? Rogues have intimidate as a class skill and more skill points per level. ;)

Tanka
07-23-2008, 05:41 PM
Honestly, as a Rogue, taking one level of Fighter does in fact make you better. Unless, of course, they introduce some ultimate Enhancement that only an L20 Rogue can take -- which would just be silly and, well, wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

As to Intimidate: Borr's right. If you're a full-BAB class and are going S&B, you should have Intimidate. If you don't, you're gimped and draining party resources because you're:

1) Not relaxing the strain of the party by Intimidating.
2) Not relaxing the strain of the party by doing as much DPS as possible.

I could care less what kind of AC you're sporting -- if you have CE going, a Mithral Tower Shield in your Mithral Full Plate and you don't have Intimidate, you're bringing nothing to the party.

Rogues, of course, are a wholly different beast as they can range from "dead upon zone in" to "almost immortal" depending on how they're built and played. An AC Rogue can be a fun thing to play, but you gotta realize that most parties are gonna go "wait, a Rogue with high AC doing... What now?" Not saying "hey take Intimidate!" Just saying you're gonna get looked at funny from time to time.

If you're a two-handed melee, all bets are off. Screw Intimidate because you are bringing your DPS to the party. Assuming, of course, you have PA and can hit on a 2.

Deathseeker
07-23-2008, 05:41 PM
Why would you do that? Rogues have intimidate as a class skill and more skill points per level. ;)

Because I'm a moron and didn't notice that Rogues had intimidate as a class skill. Guess that made the dilemma much less of a dilemma :)

However, this does lead to another age old rhetorical question....why the heck would a rogue have initimidate as a class skill but not a Paladin? Don't answer, that sounds like an entirely different thread...

Thanks!

Tanka
07-23-2008, 05:43 PM
Because I'm a moron and didn't notice that Rogues had intimidate as a class skill. Guess that made the dilemma much less of a dilemma :)

However, this does lead to another age old rhetorical question....why the heck would a rogue have initimidate as a class skill but not a Paladin? Don't answer, that sounds like an entirely different thread...

Thanks!
Because Paladins are more like Noble Fighters that would rather talk peacefully than exchange blows.

Or, at least, that's what WotC wants you to think. I kinda think that's bull.

Aranticus
07-23-2008, 05:51 PM
Take note that everything that will follow applies to S&B characters, not only 'all melee'.

Unless you're a ranger with crazy DPS and AC, I don't see it happen. Are you telling me that your fighter can take aggro from a TWF barbarian? A Tempest Str-Based ranger agaisnt his favored enemy? A sorcerer's Wall of Fire? A TWF rogue? Sorry, I don't buy that. There are two ways to get aggro, DPS or Intimidate. Your fighter can't out-DPS the good DPS builds out there.

YES, my SnB fighter can take agro away from TWF barb, tempest dwarven rangers, rangers with manyshots, wall of fire, TWF rogue. yes, a SnB fighter cannot out DPS the DPS builds but they can out agro them. LEVIKS' DEFENDER set :rolleyes:

You Higher Con? My Dwarven Defender build can reach 449 HP, I don't really think higher Con is needed.
Higher Str? For what? 1 more damage per swing, I have trouble seeing how someone can argue 1 damage per swing beats getting 5 AC, when that 5 AC actually matters.

strength ISNT ONLY about damage. its also accuracy. higher str = higher chance to hit. does 5 AC actually matter? yes if the AC is HIGH ENOUGH to matter. 5 AC to a 30 AC THF fighter does not help. 5 AC to a 55 AC SnB fighter helps. damage is important. try hitting portals or harry without rage or prayer. while the difference is not large, it is noticeable and significant

I' not painting things too simple.

YES, there are more to SnB intimitanks. There is also the SnB STRATEGIST. it is hard for both to be in the toon due to the large number of enhancements required for both

How? Explain.

the STRATEGIST. intimitank retain agro and at the same time, the mobs are trying to hit him. the strategist may not have such a high AC (mine is sitting at 51 standing, darn rituals dun work, darn no seal or chattering) but he can stop most attack by tripping or stunning.

rest *snip*

reason: out of time need to hurry to work

Borror0
07-23-2008, 06:03 PM
However, this does lead to another age old rhetorical question....why the heck would a rogue have initimidate as a class skill but not a Paladin?

Which is why I keep on insisting on them changing Diplomacy into two parts. First, an Intimidate-like ability and also keeping the current Diplomacy ability. You should just have to drag the right icon to your hotbar. That would help both paladins and monks a lot...

Blazer
07-23-2008, 06:04 PM
I can steal aggro from an intimi tank :) :cool:

Lies, sir, nothing but lies. I'd use the phrase "tall tales" but in your case...well...you get the running joke. ;)

The_Phenx
07-23-2008, 06:36 PM
Lies, sir, nothing but lies. I'd use the phrase "tall tales" but in your case...well...you get the running joke. ;)


Ok, some REAL DPS. ;)

Everyone wants to kick the halfling.

And with my shiny new goggles I know when i have aggro.. theres no +8. Ill get a video I'll prove it to the world.. halflings are the master race. Especially dirty dark halflings...

Zeik
07-24-2008, 02:39 AM
Gear and Standard Gear Allocation are most important, the "edge" comes from careful character planning since creation, and of course balancing your AC with your usefulness to a group is something to consider. Too many people claim they do just fine with a 46 AC and "get hit just as much as a 68 AC" :rolleyes:; and by doing just fine means the Cleric has drained most his mana in a wasteful manner and leaving him little or none for his own Battle prowess to shine (Blade Bariers, Slay Living, Searing Light, etc..)

Too many people post their AC´s with IF I had this, when my L16 Pally friend clamps onto my beltbuckle with a 2 foot rope, right after my Ranger friend Drops a Barkskin on me, and of course the cleric casts recitation, as soon as the bard sings his Dodge tune.... and I boost myself for 20 seconds I have a <insert denial objective AC # here>

IMO it´s nothing more than what you are at after being rezzed and have to start swinging to save the wounded Cleric from his Aggro, and pick up some stones....NOW what is your AC? (What ring are/were you wearing, and how many pots and clickies can you hit before that Ice Flenser turns you into a Sushi roll and no Wasabi to go?

My 2 CP´s. I totally agree , it gets tiring seeing everyone post ac with every buff in the game

The_Phenx
07-24-2008, 09:25 AM
Completely unbuffed. TWF 46 ac...S&B 53 ac & 31 dr (maybe more? haven't gotten to fully test the new shield (Leviks Defender) yet but saw 31 in pvp)

It is enough to solo tank the red named render on the way to hound, and not take damage, and yes Borro I hold aggro just fine without Intimidate.

Borror0
07-24-2008, 09:47 AM
It is enough to solo tank the red named render on the way to hound, and not take damage, and yes Borro I hold aggro just fine without Intimidate.

While shield blocking? Elaborate.

The_Phenx
07-24-2008, 10:12 AM
I popped a fighters haste jumped in wacked him for a few sec the scooted him away from the party while they dealt with the flayers renders and beholders.

I held aggro fine...(160-190 pt crit average) he couldnt hit me, and if he did the dr blocked all the damage. Defender shield is awesome.

As for beating him up... I just popped a haste + boost, drop the sheild put on both 3x pos peshs wacked him for 20 sec...when health got low I hopped around equiped my greeblade+sup potency 6 dagger sling myself a dragon mark...then sheild up and block while waiting for my boost to reset, update my haste reboost and repeat. Did this twice before the party caught back up.

I had him to somewhere between 1/4 - 1/2 by the time the party finished up and came to help.

First time I tried it with the new shield... and It would have been more than doable all the way I think.

Borror0
07-24-2008, 10:37 AM
First time I tried it with the new shield... and It would have been more than doable all the way I think.

Sorry, but y party gets rid of mobs faster than yours. There is simply no way one of my guildy barbarian could get any of these red names to that low while we take care of trash mobs. Take the best TWF double raged barbarian with the two type of madstone and using Fighter Haste Boost I (of course using Mineral II Khopesh)... and I doubt he could even drop it down to half HP before we take care of the tash mob.

Unless we take an afk.

By the way, from the top of my 31 DR, I can tell you that they do get through 31 DR.

The_Phenx
07-24-2008, 10:56 AM
There is simply no way one of my guildy barbarian could get any of these red names to that low while we take care of trash mobs. Take the best TWF double raged barbarian with the two type of madstone and using Fighter Haste Boost I (of course using Mineral II Khopesh)... and I doubt he could even drop it down to half HP before we take care of the tash mob.


Correct he would be dead, because he is madstoned and can't heal himself. Barbarians are gimp. :D

Fighters haste boost for me is 30&#37; + 25% more from haste. > 20% madstone 15% boost I

And I did say between 1/4 and 1/2 somewere around 1/3. And thats points taken away.. not left, think you misunderstood.


By the way, from the top of my 31 DR, I can tell you that they do get through 31 DR.

Dunno all I can tell you was I took almost no damage (occasionally 2-6 pts) but he did take constant damage points form the sonic guard on the shield... Shoulda checked my combat log to see what the dr was in there, and will do next time....the 31 dr came from a pvp test.. Ill assume its higher.

The point wasn't to say what I can and can't do, just to say I can hold aggro on the red named render by dpsing him, and still shield up enough to not take damage and top myself off w dragon marks... All without silly combat expertise or intimidate.

There are other ways of doing things... remember mod 4? when nothing could be done without pulling mobs thru solid fog?

:D

For tactical reasons I will still say a good true intimitank is irreplaceable however.

The_Phenx
07-24-2008, 11:04 AM
Sorry, but y party gets rid of mobs faster than yours.

Do you know the party I was in?

Were you there hiding around the corner?

STALKER!!!!! ---------------------> Points and runs away!

Lol you know I wont relent till you admit that I'm uber...I'm a halfling.. I've got a complex.

The_Phenx
07-24-2008, 11:59 AM
Oh and Op... 46/53 is a good base xp to shoot for for all the new content on normal. You will be plenty survivable.

If you want to be untouchable talk with Blazer... or Riot... Or Mr BorroO

Riot
07-24-2008, 01:13 PM
If you want to be untouchable talk with Blazer... or Riot... Or Mr BorroO

I did a PuG VoD raid the other day... pretty funny stuff.

they had a fighter as the main tank and told me to do DPS.... ok... yer the boss DPS I Be.

About 10 mintues into the thing and the orthons still weren't dead and the healers were at half mana, I say "can I uh,,, show you guys something cool?"

Someone goes "please do".

/e mash Intimidate.

ALL MOBS = one corner arses in the air.

I tanked everything. including Sully.

Self healing for the most part.
One big ball of mobs. I locked the sheild up position and smashed the Intimin button.
And drank a beer. (at this point DPS can kiss me arse)

Mobs down we win, Run over, mana still a sliver in the clerics bar.

Untouchable is nice =).

The_Phenx
07-24-2008, 01:31 PM
Lol nice Riott...

Even im getting close to it at this point... and when I turtle up that lil damage I take I can dragon mark back... wish I had put mroe points into intim tho... but I'm planning on it for lvls 16-20 lol.

Blazer
07-24-2008, 02:18 PM
...wish I had put mroe points into intim tho... but I'm planning on it for lvls 16-20 lol.

We talked about this already Ghin, it's not worth it for you at this point. You're at 10 INT, so 2 skillpts/lvl over 4 levels left is 8 points into intimidate. You're at 8 CHA (-1 mod) so now you're down to 7. You're halfling so -4 for size difference, putting you at 3 intimdate, but back to 7 with Ghero. Congrats, you can now intimidate stuff in the harbor reliably, maybe even some marketplace quests. :)

Stick to what you do best my friend, just kill stuff; I'll handle the intimidating for our groups.

Borror0
07-24-2008, 02:29 PM
Untouchable is nice =).

What AC and DR are you up to bro?

The_Phenx
07-24-2008, 02:34 PM
We talked about this already Ghin, it's not worth it for you at this point. You're at 10 INT, so 2 skillpts/lvl over 4 levels left is 8 points into intimidate. You're at 8 CHA (-1 mod) so now you're down to 7. You're halfling so -4 for size difference, putting you at 3 intimdate, but back to 7 with Ghero. Congrats, you can now intimidate stuff in the harbor reliably, maybe even some marketplace quests. :)

Stick to what you do best my friend, just kill stuff; I'll handle the intimidating for our groups.

Lol Ive just been beaten with a large bat by my guild leader :).

I was thinking +2 int tome gives me 3 per level for 4 levels +12 so I could intimidate all things my size...
stools
old shoes
discarded clothing
Radishes
you know ground level things that you tall people look over.

Riot
07-24-2008, 03:13 PM
Same I've been at for a while.

61 AC Unbuffed. With Seal of Earth on.

Add all yer fun buffs and stuff to figure the rest.
Boostable +5 via HV4. +2 for turtle mode yadda yadda.

DR is the usual with +5 Mith Tower, I don't use the Reaver sheild due to the hit in AC, (even though i have it).
And I don't have the Leviks sheild yet.


Although I did have a discussion with guild clerics recently regarding healing and how they heal me personally.
Very interesting actually. We've been running some numbers and the results were pretty amazing.

Blazer
07-24-2008, 04:14 PM
I was thinking +2 int tome gives me 3 per level for 4 levels +12 so I could intimidate all things my size...

*sigh* You keep forgetting that you rolled with 9 INT and had me give you a +1 INT tome waaaay back when so you had more points lying around. You need a +3 INT tome, sir. ;)

Why do I know your character better than you do? :confused:

Dexxaan
07-24-2008, 04:25 PM
If 61 is "Untouchable"...what is 68? (Unbuffed-Undispellable-Non Boost).

(And no, Bruttus isn´t a DEX Build AC Paladin who can´t drop a Kobold,.......he has issues when there´s 2 Kobolds!):D

Borror0
07-24-2008, 04:28 PM
61 AC Unbuffed. With Seal of Earth on.

Yeah, I'm more of a fan of Barkskin potions. :p


And I don't have the Leviks sheild yet.

Yeah, got mine on run number 8. At run number 13 now. The damn Healer Bound is broken though. Never seen it go off.


Although I did have a discussion with guild clerics recently regarding healing and how they heal me personally.
Very interesting actually. We've been running some numbers and the results were pretty amazing.

I'd have like to hear that. Was in on your forums? If so, think you could PM/email me that?

The_Phenx
07-24-2008, 07:39 PM
*sigh* You keep forgetting that you rolled with 9 INT and had me give you a +1 INT tome waaaay back when so you had more points lying around. You need a +3 INT tome, sir. ;)

Why do I know your character better than you do? :confused:

Cause your more bored than I am? lol

I knew what I meat ... :)

Aranticus
07-25-2008, 02:56 AM
I did a PuG VoD raid the other day... pretty funny stuff.

they had a fighter as the main tank and told me to do DPS.... ok... yer the boss DPS I Be.

About 10 mintues into the thing and the orthons still weren't dead and the healers were at half mana, I say "can I uh,,, show you guys something cool?"

Someone goes "please do".

/e mash Intimidate.

ALL MOBS = one corner arses in the air.

I tanked everything. including Sully.

Self healing for the most part.
One big ball of mobs. I locked the sheild up position and smashed the Intimin button.
And drank a beer. (at this point DPS can kiss me arse)

Mobs down we win, Run over, mana still a sliver in the clerics bar.

Untouchable is nice =).

are you saying the fighter sux as he cant tank or you sux as you cant dps? :rolleyes:

Riot
07-25-2008, 08:39 AM
I'd have like to hear that. Was in on your forums? If so, think you could PM/email me that?
I posted it into the Riott AC tank thread... so I didn't clutter this one up.

Check there.


are you saying the fighter sux as he cant tank or you sux as you cant dps?
lol.. No the issue mainly was they wanted everyone to beat on the same mob and ignore the rest.
And we were suppoed to follow this one Fighter who was a 2 hander type.

Problem was it was chaos. You couldn't tell who he was swinging at and mobs moved around because as soon as the rogue got 3 rounds on him the mob beat the **** out of the rogue. And the Fighter couldn't hold agro unless we all slacked off our DPS.


what is 68? (Unbuffed-Undispellable-Non Boost).
I'd like to see how that's done.

The_Phenx
07-25-2008, 10:06 AM
Problem was it was chaos. You couldn't tell who he was swinging at and mobs moved around because as soon as the rogue got 3 rounds on him the mob beat the **** out of the rogue. And the Fighter couldn't hold agro unless we all slacked off our DPS.


Lol sounds like they are taking a page out of our playbook, and executing it poorly.

We usually play follow the halfling.

Aranticus
07-25-2008, 10:14 AM
I posted it into the Riott AC tank thread... so I didn't clutter this one up.

Check there.


lol.. No the issue mainly was they wanted everyone to beat on the same mob and ignore the rest.
And we were suppoed to follow this one Fighter who was a 2 hander type.

Problem was it was chaos. You couldn't tell who he was swinging at and mobs moved around because as soon as the rogue got 3 rounds on him the mob beat the **** out of the rogue. And the Fighter couldn't hold agro unless we all slacked off our DPS.


I'd like to see how that's done.

weak team then. i never have problems holding sally's or the orthon's agro. levik defender is a boon to grabbing agro.

Reisz
07-25-2008, 10:54 AM
Unbuffed AC

10 Base
8 Armored Bracers
7 +5 Heavy Shield
14 Dex Bonus
3 Seal of Earth
1 Dodge Feat
3 Chattering Ring
4 Ice Raiment
4 Insight
5 Combat Expertise
5 Deflection
2 Aura
1 Size
1 Alchemical Armor Bonus (works on Robes ATM)
68 AC

Should be able to hit 69 AC when they fix the shield Ritual.

Assume Halfling Rog 13 / Pal 3

Riot
07-25-2008, 11:16 AM
Halfling Rog 13 / Pal 3

Ahh I knew there was a catch.
halfers can make good tanks... Sucks for the Intimidate though.

I'll be 63 when they fix the Alchemical stuff too.

Do Paladins get their aura's in non magic zones? Honest question since I don't play a palladin.

Riot
07-25-2008, 11:18 AM
weak team then. i never have problems holding sally's or the orthon's agro. levik defender is a boon to grabbing agro.

What part of PuG didn't you get? heheheeh j/k

Reisz
07-25-2008, 11:30 AM
Ahh I knew there was a catch.
halfers can make good tanks... Sucks for the Intimidate though.

Yes the size does hurt the intimidate, but this build should have some added CHA to make up for it. Or you could lose 1 AC and go Drow. That would give you +1 intimidate (due to CHA bonus) and no size penalty.

Bonuses for this build are evasion, great UMD, Balance, Intimidate, Awesome saves.
Downside Fewer HP (though you could still hit 300+), poor DPS (Sneak attack and intimidate dont mix on the same toon), Less DR

This is more of a lure than a tank. :)




Do Paladins get their aura's in non magic zones? Honest question since I don't play a palladin.

Pretty sure they do. Same goes for bard songs

Blazer
07-25-2008, 11:51 AM
Ahh I knew there was a catch.
halfers can make good tanks... Sucks for the Intimidate though.

The 68 you were originally referring to from Dexxan, however, is not a halfling. It's a dwarf 12P/4F build.

EDIT: Link (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=126290)


Do Paladins get their aura's in non magic zones? Honest question since I don't play a palladin.

Yes, pally auras are still present in non-magic zones (like in the presence of a beholder).

Tanka
07-25-2008, 11:59 AM
Link (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=126290)
Fixed your link. ;)

Blazer
07-25-2008, 12:06 PM
Fixed your link. ;)

Ty sir. :) Fixed it in my post as well.

Reisz
07-25-2008, 12:11 PM
The 68 you were originally referring to from Dexxan, however, is not a halfling. It's a dwarf 12P/4F build.

Madstone is a buff as it has a timer and it needs to proc. Undispellable? Yes Unbuffed? No

Plus I am only adding up 66 even with Madstone

10 Base
14 Armor
9 Shield
5 Dex
4 Natural
5 Deflection
1 Dodge Feat
5 Dodge
5 Combat Expertise
4 Insight
4 Aura
66 AC

debo
07-25-2008, 12:12 PM
If 61 is "Untouchable"...what is 68? (Unbuffed-Undispellable-Non Boost).

(And no, Bruttus isn´t a DEX Build AC Paladin who can´t drop a Kobold,.......he has issues when there´s 2 Kobolds!):D

yea man ... but you don't have intimidate ... so you are obviously EXTREMELY (I just love that word :D) gimped and that AC is worthless :rolleyes:

Dexxaan
07-25-2008, 12:16 PM
Ahh I knew there was a catch.
halfers can make good tanks... Sucks for the Intimidate though.

I'll be 63 when they fix the Alchemical stuff too.

Do Paladins get their aura's in non magic zones? Honest question since I don't play a palladin.

You asked how 68 AC (Unbuffed-Undispellable-Unboosted)

Dwarf 12 Paladin 4 Fighter. I know Borr has read my Build....a long time ago. yours is very nice, and more Intimidate-Efficient for sure. I get aggro via DPS and hold it well, not uber but quite well.

Just read about Levik´s Heal Spell not going off, thats a bummer, but I´m hoping the +3 Insight isn´t...broke as I have yet to get the Shield, but once I do I have planned to use Chaosgardes and +6 STR gloves as a Purely AC Rearrangement (When using GS Mineral II Khopesh with +4 Insight).

Thanks to Levik´s Combo (again, if not broke) I will have a 65 "Non Insight Weapon AC" which I consider better for most situations and since the Glove Slot opens up I get the benefit of 22 DEX (+1 AC when Fighter 7 attained - FAMII and FTSMII) by using the Spectral Gloves and +2 To Hit to boot. (I love those darned Gloves.)

RE - Paladin Aura: It´s non-Dispellable.

Happy Hunting!

Blazer
07-25-2008, 12:17 PM
Madstone is a buff as it has a timer and it needs to proc. Undispellable? Yes Unbuffed? No

Plus I am only adding up 66 even with Madstone

10 Base
14 Armor
9 Shield
5 Dex
4 Natural
5 Deflection
1 Dodge Feat
5 Dodge
5 Combat Expertise
4 Insight
4 Aura
66 AC

Heh, not my build, I didn't check the math beforehand. :D

Reisz
07-25-2008, 12:30 PM
Heh, not my build, I didn't check the math beforehand. :D

Not a problem. We just want to know where the other 2 AC point come from. We want them for ourselves. :)

Dexxaan
07-25-2008, 12:30 PM
yea man ... but you don't have intimidate ... so you are obviously EXTREMELY (I just love that word :D) gimped and that AC is worthless :rolleyes:

Agreed a 12 Base is not good. But you are Assuming a High AC Tank HAS TO BE an Intimidator. (Maybe NASCAR driving sould come as skill perk?) :D

It&#180;s VERY useful, but considering the performance, survivability and killing prowess this lil bastige has proven... Bleh Intimidate for now. (Read on for posible development and "Un-Gimping")


Options: (Still weighing in the value of em all as usual to L20 End Build)

I could take the Enhancement from Paladin, cheap enough on AP&#180;s.

I could drop 3 AC (Seal makes more sense and use a +13 Intimidate Ring) 25 + 4 GH = 29...still low but worth considering. of course I become what I detest...a "Barkskin Pot Junky Tank". :D

With my remaining 4 levels (Most likely all 4 will be Fighter... 3 for sure) I&#180;ll be able to pump in a possible 12 so all in all and stooping down to the Barkskin Chugging Level I could easily attain (when it&#180;s needed) a 41 + Paladin Divine Righteousness IIRC is the name?

Not too shabby.

Whos gimped now? :D (And you know I&#180;m harrasing you because you kicked my arse in PVP a long time ago right?..)

Note: Forgot the Fighter Intimidate Enhancement line which at L8 fighter I believe adds +3.

debo
07-25-2008, 01:17 PM
Whos gimped now? :D (And you know I&#180;m harrasing you because you kicked my arse in PVP a long time ago right?..)



Luka has been a gimp for awhile now... cept I am the only one who knows that ;)

Riot
07-25-2008, 02:37 PM
I'm all for Non-Intimi Tanks having high AC!!! Amen to that. Less damage over all is a good thing.

I think B's point is that getting agro through DPS is ok. But Intimidate is much more efficient and reliable (when maxed). And if you do plan to "get agro" from more than 1 opponent, having a high AC/Save/DR makes you a more efficient group member.

I'd agree on that as well.

But I'm glad that so called "soft armor" classes, ie: rogue, ranger, and monk can achieve such high AC's.
Makes me more ansy to see where our Fighter overhauls will take us when they finally arrive.

The_Phenx
07-25-2008, 02:41 PM
Makes me more ansy to see where our Fighter overhauls will take us when they finally arrive.

12-20 crit ranges with +1 multipliers, a 120pt ac and 16,000 hit points.

Only if your a pure class halfling :D

Riot
07-25-2008, 03:02 PM
I'm good with that... since humans will only be 1 AC behind... you got my support! =P

Borror0
07-25-2008, 03:03 PM
I think B's point is that getting agro through DPS is ok. But Intimidate is much more efficient and reliable (when maxed). And if you do plan to "get agro" from more than 1 opponent, having a high AC/Save/DR makes you a more efficient group member.

My point is, if you're going to lower your DPS to get hits less... then freaking grab Intimidate and make everyone take advantage of that AC.

Otherwise, in many situation, you'll just be a burden on the cleric. You can tank the same mob than a good DPS build without Intimidate.

Dexxaan
07-25-2008, 03:20 PM
Otherwise, in many situation, you'll just be a burden on the cleric.


Well that makes no sense. But I've written some whoppers as well.

Aranticus
07-25-2008, 06:31 PM
What part of PuG didn't you get? heheheeh j/k

i stand corrected... weak pug then :D

so far i choose which vod pug i join. have been in many where the leaders are kind and let in all kinds of player. no one listens, everyone else doing their on stuff... nightmare :eek:

Aranticus
07-25-2008, 06:41 PM
Well that makes no sense. But I've written some whoppers as well.

to put it plainly:

to get high ac and high intimidate, DPS is affected, ie no THF, depending on how enhancements are done, may not have max strength

when DPS is lower, it takes a longer time to kill stuff, enemy stay alive longer

when the enemy is standing up longer, it can deal out more damage and in some situations kill the initmidator, ie less hp enhancement = less hp = may die from dbfb.

when players die, DPS is lost and fight gets even longer

with clerics using mass heals, everyone is getting healed regardless of the current hp. ac or no ac, it doesnt really matter. when the fight is short, they use less resources, when the fight is long, they use more

that is what is meant

Borror0
07-25-2008, 10:31 PM
Well that makes no sense. But I've written some whoppers as well.

Ok. Let's go with an example.

Say you're on Dexxan and you got a dwarven barbarian with a Mineral II greataxe beating on whatever redn maed with a a Cleave attack. That barbarian will hold aggro on the red named. You won't have aggro. The mob will damage the barbarian. Your AC will be of not help, since you don't have aggro. In this instance, you're dealing less damage than a DPS toon would and that's what is most efficient because a dead mob deal no damage.

AC is meaning less if a mob doesn't swing at you, and most of the time, that's when you got aggro.

Oh, another one!

You're in a group... they are using mass heals. Enough mass heals to keep everyone up. Your getting less damage, but you're getting overhealed by the mass heals. You would lower your AC and increase your DPS... and your red bar would stay as full and still require no spot healing.

So, but AC without capacity to gain aggro is gimped in our metagame. Sorry Dexx, just the truth.

You would be in group where all your melees have as much AC as you, your toon would be great... thing is, that's not going to happen.

The_Phenx
07-28-2008, 11:46 AM
Or maybe you have a fairly high ac while twf and you dish out tons of dps without sucking up lots of healing.

Or the party wipes and you turtle up and knock down the last two or three opponents and raise the cleric back up.

Or say your in the subterreanea and you lag off the edge and have enough ac/dps to rejoin the party not only alive but without trailing half a dungeon of mobs.

Or you and the rouge are the last two standing in the raid. Your ac is good enough so the rouge slinging heal scrolls is enough to keep you standing, and your dps is good enough to finish off the boss.

Not every build has to be an intimidate.

I love a good debate. :)

Happy Monday!

debo
07-29-2008, 08:57 AM
Or maybe you have a fairly high ac while twf and you dish out tons of dps without sucking up lots of healing.

Or the party wipes and you turtle up and knock down the last two or three opponents and raise the cleric back up.

Or say your in the subterreanea and you lag off the edge and have enough ac/dps to rejoin the party not only alive but without trailing half a dungeon of mobs.

Or you and the rouge are the last two standing in the raid. Your ac is good enough so the rouge slinging heal scrolls is enough to keep you standing, and your dps is good enough to finish off the boss.

Not every build has to be an intimidate.

I love a good debate. :)

Happy Monday!

That is all very true. You can't just make claims that high ac without intimidate is useless. It isn't. There are too many different scenerios in this game that one solution isn't the answer.

High AC sword and board tanks without intimidate... while gimped at end game (we ALL agree about that) are NOT useless. Being able to hit a high ac has SOME uses still...

And no I don't feel like painting pictures... Anyone who has gone sword and board without intimidate knows they still get aggro at times and when they do they are happy they have the Armor Class.

All this considered... I still go mostly THF fighting now at end game. ;)

I just don't like blanket statements that claim all of such and such builds are complete gimps and useless.

It is the player... their gear... and THEN the build.

Even when wearing a shield... I know for a fact there are times I get aggro from gimped barbarians/dps builds with a Mineral 2khpesh/power attack/bloodstone/max str.. .etc...

It happens... this game is not all math.

The_Phenx
07-29-2008, 09:35 AM
Sing it brotha!!! lol

I prefer to twf but I like knowing when necessary I can throw up a shield and keep aggro on the named fire ele and devil (without problems or dying) in part 5 while the rest of the party cleans up the others.

I multitask therefore I am.